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Speaker 1: Take some long shots, guys.

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Speaker 2: So this is the Denner cell, Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Cash?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and they suspect that later in the eighteenth century,

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Speaker 4: after the expansion of the building, what we just saw

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Speaker 4: where the jail keeper lived. That was added new and

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Speaker 4: originally this served as the jail keepers living quarters, with

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Speaker 4: the cells beginning on the other side of this wall,

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Speaker 4: and then up on the second floor as well. We

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Speaker 4: can go take a look at in some of them.

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Speaker 5: As a matter of.

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Speaker 4: Fact, if you'll want to come up the stairs, we

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Speaker 4: move the barrier out of the way. Let be careful.

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Speaker 4: Mortimers up there somewhere.

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Speaker 6: Let's go up together.

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Speaker 7: We shall be creaked out together.

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Speaker 1: My daughters and I are back in Williamsburg, Virginia touring

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Speaker 1: the old jail there with Cash ear Harts and Nicole Brown.

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Speaker 1: Is this gold sund.

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Speaker 7: Course? Sweet?

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Speaker 1: Well, that's creepy. I don't think that's Mortimer.

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Speaker 2: Him, that's him.

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Speaker 6: There's a body in there.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Yeah, we found Mortimer.

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Speaker 6: Tell us about Mortimer.

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Speaker 7: Uh So.

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Speaker 8: Mortimer is the nickname that we gave to a large dummy,

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Speaker 8: a mannequin that we used to use for a program

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Speaker 8: called Williamsburg Crime and Punishment. And we used to suspend

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Speaker 8: Mortimer from the gallows in the evening, and they would

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Speaker 8: have some cressets set up some of the fire baskets

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Speaker 8: to offer illumination to show people what it would have

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Speaker 8: looked like to have seen a body suspended from the gallows.

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Speaker 2: It is a really very visual kind of death.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that is so groovy.

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Speaker 8: I love it.

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Speaker 1: Back in October of seventeen sixty six, Colonel John Chisel

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Speaker 1: faced the same fate as Mortimer, a possible public hanging.

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Speaker 1: His attorney, John Wales, had been working hard to establish

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Speaker 1: a convincing defense, but he couldn't promise an acquittal. The

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Speaker 1: gentry class in the wealthiest colony in the United Colonies

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Speaker 1: was understandably shaken. What would happen to them if Chisel

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Speaker 1: were convicted, and how would it affect the class structure

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Speaker 1: in the colonies.

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Speaker 9: Gentlemen don't do those things, and gentlemen are not found

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Speaker 9: guilty of murdering.

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Speaker 2: Peasants to have a gentleman not just behave this way,

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Speaker 2: but then the law bend in his favor rather than

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Speaker 2: in the arc that we are hope it goes in.

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Speaker 2: Is such a violation of trust? Is such a violation

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Speaker 2: of identity? Is such a violation of one's individual self

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Speaker 2: when looking at oneself as a British subject and saying,

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Speaker 2: but would the law apply to me that way?

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Speaker 1: In the seventeen hundreds, children across the city of Williamsburg,

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Speaker 1: Virginia flipped through books at their schools and their churches.

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Speaker 1: The common theme across their pages declared that status is

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Speaker 1: everything you're born into the place God has meant to

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Speaker 1: ordain you. And if God has ordained me to be

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Speaker 1: a gentleman, and he ordained Robert Rutledge to be a merchant,

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Speaker 1: then God did not mean for us to be on

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Speaker 1: equal footing. But the murder of Robert Rutledge had created

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Speaker 1: a disparity in the fundamental belief thou shalt not kill yes.

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Speaker 1: But in this case it seemed that perhaps a merchant's

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Speaker 1: lie was less valuable than a member of the gentry class.

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Speaker 1: John Chisel was trapped.

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Speaker 10: Colonel Chisel, if he is convicted of this felony, will

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Speaker 10: forfeit his property, and in the forfeit of his property,

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Speaker 10: he ruins his family.

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Speaker 1: John Robinson's descendant, Simon Robinson, says that the General Court

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Speaker 1: judges in Williamsburg and the colonies Governor were also trapped.

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Speaker 7: I think those in power couldn't win almost if they

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Speaker 7: convicted him. They were convicting one of their own, and

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Speaker 7: how that would be seen when they might want to

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Speaker 7: be a view, well, it was only a commoner. He

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Speaker 7: had it coming. I'm sure there was that view.

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Speaker 1: This certainly wouldn't be the last time the courts struggled

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Speaker 1: to reconcile the law in the handling of a suspected

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Speaker 1: murder by a member of the upper class. Ever hear

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Speaker 1: of the Chapiquittic incident. It's a very famous case in history,

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Speaker 1: involving the death of a middle class woman and a

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Speaker 1: politician from a storied family. On July eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine,

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Speaker 1: Senator Ted Kennedy drove his car off a bridge on

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Speaker 1: Chapiquittic Island in Massachusetts. The accident killed a twenty eight

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Speaker 1: year old campaign strategist named Mary Joe Kopeckney, who worked

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Speaker 1: for Kennedy. The subsequent investigation led to minor charges for Kennedy,

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Speaker 1: but derailed his aspirations to run for president. Yet many

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Speaker 1: questions remained about Kapeckney's death and if Kennedy should have

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Speaker 1: been held responsible. Historia Nicole Brown says she can see

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Speaker 1: the parallels between the two cases white male privilege.

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Speaker 2: At what point is somebody considered too valuable to be

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Speaker 2: held accountable for their behavior? But what it also makes

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Speaker 2: me think of, you know, it sounds like Edward Ruloff,

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Speaker 2: and you're asking and asking this question of how far

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Speaker 2: can someone get away with their status before they're challenged

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Speaker 2: on their behavior.

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Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff is from my book All That Is Wicked

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Speaker 1: and Season one of this podcast. In eighteen seventy one,

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Speaker 1: he was executed for murdering a shopkeeper during a botched robbery,

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Speaker 1: but he had killed four people from his own family beforehand.

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Speaker 1: Rulof was a killer, even he admitted, But he was

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Speaker 1: also a genius, and there were many people, including Mark Twain,

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Speaker 1: who believed that it would be a waste to execute him.

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Speaker 1: What if his mind could be harnessed for good instead

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Speaker 1: of evil? Privilege? Colonel Chisel was privileged. As he sat

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Speaker 1: at his dining room table on Tuesday, October fourteenth, there

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Speaker 1: were still death threats. He didn't feel safe. Death in

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Speaker 1: the news would humiliate his family and they would lose everything.

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Speaker 1: But still, he had stabbed a man in front of

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Speaker 1: a room full of witnesses. It was privilege that allowed

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Speaker 1: him even the possibility of escaping punishment. Chisel surely understood

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Speaker 1: that the governor and the General Court were in a

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Speaker 1: tough position. They had already done so much for him,

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Speaker 1: and now the public was turning against them too. The

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Speaker 1: next day, a visitor arrived at the Chisel home on

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Speaker 1: Saint Francis Street. As they stepped inside, they made an

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Speaker 1: upsetting discovery.

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Speaker 2: Colonel chisels I'm dead in his home.

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Speaker 1: There's not a lot of information about John Chisel's death.

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Speaker 1: For good reason. It was kept secret, and then the

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Speaker 1: details were very vague. We don't even know what room

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Speaker 1: he was found in, or the state of his body.

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Speaker 1: We just know for certain that John Chisel was dead.

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Speaker 2: Did his family know he was dead? They're all staying

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Speaker 2: at the house with him. In theory the children were

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Speaker 2: all there. I think so, but they might not have

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Speaker 2: been so. Did they find out to the newspaper? These

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Speaker 2: are some answers we just don't have.

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Speaker 1: Was he murdered. Did one of the angry protesters break

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Speaker 1: in and kill him? That was definitely a possibility. But

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Speaker 1: when the coroner arrived and examined John Chisel, he made

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Speaker 1: a decision about the cause of death, and then his

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Speaker 1: ruling was printed in the newspaper, the Virginia Gazette. John

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Speaker 1: Chisel had died from nervous fits. Nervous fits I've talked

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Speaker 1: about that phrase in past seasons. It's a vague nineteenth

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Speaker 1: century term, but essentially they're describing a stroke or a

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Speaker 1: heart attack brought on by stress.

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Speaker 2: Now it says in the paper he'd died from nervous

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Speaker 2: fits due to and I'm paraphrasing here, essentially being troubled.

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Speaker 2: So that would imply that he's under some level of stress,

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Speaker 2: Whether he has suffered from some type of mental illness

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Speaker 2: or he is depressed.

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Speaker 6: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: We don't know.

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Speaker 1: The coroner's report specifically said nervous fits owing to a

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Speaker 1: constant uneasiness of the mind. Julie Richter says, in this

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Speaker 1: case it was coded language for suicide. But that would

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Speaker 1: never have been said about a member of the gentry

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Speaker 1: for several reasons.

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Speaker 6: What we would call mental illness today, you know, emotional

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Speaker 6: turmoil is something that was supposed to be handled within

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Speaker 6: the family.

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Speaker 1: Historian Neil Darby explains the other reason that Chisel's death

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have been labeled that way. Suicide wasn't allowed.

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Speaker 3: It is kind of you know, you should not. You

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Speaker 3: don't have the capacity to take your own life, and

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Speaker 3: God has the power to take that, so it's it's

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Speaker 3: a religious thing.

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Speaker 1: In the seventeen hundred, suicides were categorized in two different ways.

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Speaker 3: There were two different types of suicide. So there was

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Speaker 3: a fellow to say which was self murder, and then

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Speaker 3: there was suicide by buttons of your mind being disturbed recently.

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Speaker 3: So you had the two different types, and you know

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Speaker 3: that they would kind of distinguish between them. So which

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Speaker 3: was the better form? Which was the not so nice form.

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Speaker 1: Historian and interpreter Nicole Brown says suicide was illegal in

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Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds in England and the colonies, and so

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Speaker 1: it was your family who would actually suffer.

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Speaker 2: In the eighteenth century horribly. Under English common law, death

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Speaker 2: to one's person by oneself is still considered a felony.

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Speaker 2: All his property, everything he owned would be forfeit, and

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Speaker 2: his wife and daughters under English common law for free

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Speaker 2: English women, all of it would be forfeit.

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Speaker 1: With so much writing on the specifics in this case,

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Speaker 1: it was strange that the city's coroner had issued only

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Speaker 1: a vague description of Chisel's cause of death. He certainly

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Speaker 1: didn't indicate whether it was a suicide or murder, or

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Speaker 1: even an accident. Nicole Brown says that unless the reason

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Speaker 1: for death was obvious, like rope marks around the neck

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Speaker 1: or slice marks on the body, it was more difficult

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Speaker 1: to sort out what happened than it is today, and

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Speaker 1: that was particularly true if poison were involved.

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Speaker 2: To be as sensitive as I can to a very

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Speaker 2: difficult topic, there are some methods that are more visible

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Speaker 2: than others, and in the eighteenth century you can't do

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Speaker 2: a toxicology report, so if he died by suicide with poison,

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Speaker 2: it would be harder to prove, and legally that's very important.

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Speaker 1: The coroner didn't describe any injuries found on Chisel's body,

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Speaker 1: including signs of poison or anything else really, so it's

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Speaker 1: conceivable that maybe he just couldn't make a clear determination.

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Speaker 1: But in this case there was another reason. The coroner

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Speaker 1: of Williamsburg was one of Chisel's good friends. John Chisel's

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Speaker 1: family would have lost everything if he had died by suicide.

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Speaker 1: It was the law in the United Colonies. In fact,

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Speaker 1: suicide is still considered a crime in twenty countries. Today,

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Speaker 1: attempted suicide is punishable by fines of thousands of dollars

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Speaker 1: and up to three years in prison. In seventeen sixty six, Virginia,

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Speaker 1: not only was Chisel's financial future in jeopardy, so was

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Speaker 1: his reputation.

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Speaker 2: Everybody has lots of different choices, but when it comes

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Speaker 2: to the significance of one's status, and status is everything

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Speaker 2: because it's connected to power in Virginia, I think he

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Speaker 2: may have felt this was the only choice, which shows

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Speaker 2: you how profoundly important status is. I mean, if this

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Speaker 2: is what you consider better than going to prison.

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Speaker 1: In life, Colonel John Chisel and his wife Elizabeth, and

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Speaker 1: perhaps their adult children had attended a church that serviced

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Speaker 1: the gentry in Williamsburg. It was called the Bruton Parish Church,

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Speaker 1: and by the time that Chisel had died, the church

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Speaker 1: was almost one hundred years old. Bruton was a storied institution,

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Speaker 1: and some of the founding fathers had even worshiped there.

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Speaker 1: George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Patrick Henry all attended services

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Speaker 1: when they were in Williamsburg. After the Stamp Act passed

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Speaker 1: in seventeen sixty five members of the House of Burgesses

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Speaker 1: complained and fretted during a service at Bruton, and it

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Speaker 1: even served as a space for debates that would lead

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Speaker 1: up to the Revolutionary War. Some of the most important

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Speaker 1: men in the colony attended services there, and tombs and

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Speaker 1: monuments in the church and the churchyard were tributes to

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Speaker 1: royal governors, members of the council, and local leaders who

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Speaker 1: had been part of the esteemed congregation. John Chisel's status

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Speaker 1: in life meant that he was destined to be buried

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Speaker 1: at Routin or in a prominent location in his family

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Speaker 1: plot at Scotchtown, but after his death a series of

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Speaker 1: events plunged his family into further despair. Local leaders suspected

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Speaker 1: that he had died by suicide, and because suicide was

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Speaker 1: considered self murder and a felony, anyone who had taken

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Speaker 1: their own life was forbidden to be buried there. So

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Speaker 1: Chisel was banned from being buried at Rutin, which must

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Speaker 1: have been very humiliating for the Chisels and the Randolphs.

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Speaker 1: Instead of holding an upper class service for him amongst

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Speaker 1: the gentry, his family was forced to load his coffin

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Speaker 1: onto a horse and cart and send his body off

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Speaker 1: to the family's plantation surreptitiously in Scotchtown, almost seventy five

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Speaker 1: miles away from Williamsburg. Chisel's wife and his four daughters

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Speaker 1: planned to hold a service on the land where he

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Speaker 1: was born. By this time, word had spread among the

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Speaker 1: colonists that Chisel had been found dead. He would not

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Speaker 1: be jailed, he would not be convicted of murdering Robert Rutledge,

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Speaker 1: and he would not face their idea of justice at

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Speaker 1: the gallows. The colonists were outraged, and the lack of

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Speaker 1: details from the corner and the city's leaders made it worse.

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Speaker 1: They were convinced that Chisel had faked his death to

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Speaker 1: escape the death penalty. Once again, John Chisel had been

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Speaker 1: given privilege. A member of the gentry who brazenly murdered

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Speaker 1: a lowly Scottish merchant had gotten away with it.

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Speaker 10: They're really pissed off now they think that he is

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Speaker 10: trying to escape to Britain, to London.

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Speaker 9: But you know, the obvious thing is, you know hell

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Speaker 9: Now the guys on a boat to Jamaica.

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Speaker 1: Then the colonists learned that a coffin supposedly containing John

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Speaker 1: Chisel would be buried at Scotch Town. They didn't believe it.

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Speaker 1: The colonists did not believe that Chisel was dead. The

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Speaker 1: gentry were once again protecting him. At this point, they

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Speaker 1: trusted no one from the upper classes. They were all

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Speaker 1: liars and cheats and above the law, and now John

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Speaker 1: Chisel would be free to live his life somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't dead. They believed his coffin was full of rocks,

258
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Speaker 1: and they planned to prove it. Word quickly spread around

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Speaker 1: Virginia's countryside that John Chisel's body was being taken to

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Speaker 1: Scotch Town. Robert Rutledge's many friends loaded people onto carts,

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Speaker 1: mounted their horses, and rode off to Scotch Town, just

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Speaker 1: in time to meet the coffin. Chisel's family had arrived

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Speaker 1: for the service as well.

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Speaker 9: And his daughter arranges for the funeral at Scotch Town. Supposedly,

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Speaker 9: once the body gets to Scotch toown that is a

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Speaker 9: mob of people who are basically Ruttledge people.

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Speaker 1: The carts driver tried to move through the crowd, but

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Speaker 1: it was useless. There were too many of them.

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Speaker 10: A mob shows up at the funeral procession and they

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Speaker 10: block the procession and demand that they open the coffin

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Speaker 10: in front of his family is presumably his wife, his

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Speaker 10: daughter's everyone.

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Speaker 1: This was already a difficult day for John Chisel's wife

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Speaker 1: and children, so the crowd and the profanities and the

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Speaker 1: sheer anger just compounded their His family was terrified.

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Speaker 10: You can imagine the scene. You know, people are saying, please,

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Speaker 10: you know, for Heaven's sakes, get out of the way,

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Speaker 10: let these people grieve. All this, and the mob just

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Speaker 10: will not listen.

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Speaker 1: The mob grew even louder. They demanded that someone opened

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Speaker 1: the coffin immediately. They demanded proof that he was actually dead.

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Speaker 1: The people riding with the coffin realized that the crowd

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be satisfied until they saw his body, so they

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Speaker 1: retrieved a bar and pried open the coffin. Several of

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Speaker 1: religious friends looked inside and saw a body, somebody's body.

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Speaker 10: The body has I think the phrase they use is blackened,

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Speaker 10: decomposed over the course of the time. It's summer, so

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Speaker 10: it's probably happened pretty quickly. It's decomposed to such a

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Speaker 10: state that nobody in the mob can recognize the body.

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Speaker 1: Remember there was no embalming in the seventeen hundreds, so

291
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,960
Speaker 1: it didn't take very long for a body to degrade,

292
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Speaker 1: and this was an especially hot Virginia summer. The mob

293
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Speaker 1: wasn't satisfied. How did they know it wasn't someone else?

294
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Speaker 1: Chissel's family wept. Finally, a relative named Colonel William Dabney

295
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Speaker 1: stepped forward and confirmed it. Yes, this was John Chisel.

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Speaker 10: And it's not until they actually force some of the

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Speaker 10: close relatives of Colonel Chisel to come over and look

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Speaker 10: at the body that they confirm that's who it is,

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Speaker 10: and the mob is satisfied enough to disperse.

300
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Speaker 1: What a disturbing scene that must have been, a mob

301
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Speaker 1: forcing a grieving family to probably open their dead family

302
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Speaker 1: patriarch's coffin. But they knew that John Chisel was a murderer,

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Speaker 1: and they had been convinced that his powerful friends were

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Speaker 1: helping him get away with it, and they had had enough.

305
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Speaker 2: The protest that really culminates in this case is at

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00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,840
Speaker 2: his funeral, in people refusing to accept what someone who

307
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,760
Speaker 2: previously six months prior would be defined as there better

308
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Speaker 2: as the truth.

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Speaker 1: They were protesting the inequity of it all, the privilege

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Speaker 1: that Chisel had been offered in life, even when he

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Speaker 1: was free on.

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Speaker 2: Bail, Colonel Chisel has an endless amount of resources. He's

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Speaker 2: allowed to still have access to his property. He's been

314
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Speaker 2: given bail for an enormous son, six thousand pounds, two

315
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Speaker 2: thousand for him and another four thousand for the four

316
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Speaker 2: people vouching for him, which is insane. He's still allowed

317
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Speaker 2: to have access to what he perceives as his property,

318
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,359
Speaker 2: which are the enslaved individuals. He allowed to visit his

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00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,359
Speaker 2: lead minds in the summer. He literally travels hundreds of

320
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Speaker 2: miles outside of the city. If he had wanted to

321
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Speaker 2: disappear at that point, he certainly could have. He doesn't

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Speaker 2: What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Is he I illusional enough to think this isn't gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: That's a really good question. I don't know the answer

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Speaker 2: to that, but I think it's a compelling It's a

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Speaker 2: compelling question which has no answer. Was he in denial?

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Speaker 2: Did he see it as a matter of honor?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: You're a gentleman and you see everyone as beneath you,

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Speaker 2: then you're probably gonna be shocked when all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden you're held accountable and who held him accountable. Who

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Speaker 2: held him accountable, I would argue, would be not only

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00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 2: concerned anonymous citizens in the gazette, but people who are saying, whoa, whoa, whoa.

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Speaker 2: Wait a minute, you should not be able to receive

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Speaker 2: bail from murder. I think the minute that this fallacy

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Speaker 2: hypocrisy of different laws applying to different people based on

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Speaker 2: race is no longer no longer applied on race. In

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Speaker 2: Chisel's mind, it's the citizens or the subjects of Virginia

339
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Speaker 2: who who respond and say, no, you're not allowed to

340
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Speaker 2: kill whoever you are because you're a gentleman, and then

341
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 2: have no consequences.

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Speaker 1: John Chisel and Robert Rutledge's argument and then the merchant's

343
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Speaker 1: murder shook the foundation of Williamsburg. And then it was

344
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 1: talked about for decades to come, and it's been written

345
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,959
Speaker 1: about in history books. Some of America's most important men

346
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Speaker 1: knew John Chisel, They were affected by him and his death.

347
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Speaker 2: In various ways. Patrick Henry is connected to this case

348
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Speaker 2: through scotch Town. Thomas Jefferson is connected to this case

349
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Speaker 2: through his future father in law. And at this point

350
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 2: even the new Guard is still gentry. They have to

351
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,199
Speaker 2: have thought or pondered or reflected upon it because it

352
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: if pacted one of what they would perceive as their ilk.

353
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Speaker 2: Certainly it touched everybody's lives in Williamsburg, whether directly or indirectly,

354
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Speaker 2: I think probably made for a very hot, sticky, uncomfortable

355
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Speaker 2: summer of truth discovering for individuals.

356
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Speaker 1: By the time that John Chisel died in seventeen sixty six,

357
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: the rebels and the loyalists were becoming more distinct. Men

358
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Speaker 1: and women began taking sides. Were you loyal to the

359
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: King of England or were you loyal to the increasingly

360
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Speaker 1: outspoken leaders like Patrick Henry who declared that colonists deserve

361
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Speaker 1: to be free from tyranny.

362
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Speaker 2: To jump between what happens with the Stamp Act all

363
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Speaker 2: the way to declaring independence in less than eleven years

364
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Speaker 2: or eleven years approximately, is it cataclismic shift?

365
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Speaker 1: A revolution was coming very quickly.

366
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Speaker 2: The only metaphor I can think of is if you're

367
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Speaker 2: standing between two tectonic plates and they start shifting. I

368
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 2: think with this case, though, you know, the Stamp Act

369
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Speaker 2: is more universally disparaged as well as the townshend duties,

370
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Speaker 2: the tax on tea, the coercion acts, which we know

371
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Speaker 2: is the intolerable acts, et cetera, et cetera.

372
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Speaker 1: The colony of Virginia was very powerful and very influential,

373
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Speaker 1: and the people there were trapped between two immovable forces

374
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Speaker 1: that were both determined to control the colonies.

375
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Speaker 2: Virginia holds an immense amount of sway as a colony

376
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Speaker 2: in how people respond to these acts and respond from

377
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Speaker 2: being divided to finding a kind of common enemy which

378
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 2: is not British law or British rights, but British individuals

379
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: who've never been to the colonies infringing upon those British rights.

380
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 2: I think the Chisel case fits in, though on a

381
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 2: much more personal level, with Virginia, in the same way

382
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 2: that the Stamp Act was seen as a violation of

383
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: British rights on a larger international scale, the Chisel murder

384
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: is a violation of what Virginians perceive as this unspoken

385
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: but sometimes in the law certainly explicit relationship between individuals

386
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 2: and their strata in society and what they are expected

387
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 2: to do and how the laws apply to them.

388
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: So this case was a sort of tipping point in

389
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: the class struggles amongst the colonists. But of course we

390
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: have to remember that there was still another very large

391
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: population in Virginia who were ignored and under virtual complete control,

392
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: enslaved people who were essentially dismissed by the law, regardless

393
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Speaker 1: of their class. There were no white colonists demanding that

394
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Speaker 1: a member of the gentry be hanged for murdering a

395
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:36,719
Speaker 1: black person.

396
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 2: The hypocrisy, I can be murdered by my owner and

397
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 2: people won't make this much of a stink. So you

398
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: don't really have to look at the free white British

399
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 2: subjects who are seeing this as a violation. You have

400
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 2: to look at the half of the population in Williamsburg

401
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 2: who are black majority enslaved, but even free blacks saying

402
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: what a hip critical turn of events. Both of those

403
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 2: are cataclysmics reimaginings.

404
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: So what does this case represent to the gentry of

405
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: the colonies?

406
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 7: Do you think?

407
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: Is there fear that we see that this could happen

408
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: to us, that we are not untouchable.

409
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 2: Fear might be part of it, But the greater thing,

410
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: I think is this idea of shame as well. If

411
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 2: status is one of those things where if a gentleman

412
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: as a gentleman should behave as a gentleman, then people

413
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: are I would imagine both nervous by how individuals are

414
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: being held accountable as well as ashamed that one of

415
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: their ilk would behave in such a way.

416
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Speaker 1: There's one more possibility we should talk about concerning Chisel's death.

417
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: It's the PostScript that I mentioned. Patrick Henry would later

418
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: become a founding father, one of the men who would

419
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: sign the Declaration of Independents ten years later, and he

420
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: was at the procession in Scotch Town where Chisel's coffin

421
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: was pride open. Like the rest of the crowd, Henry

422
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: stepped toward the coffin and surveyed the body inside.

423
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 9: Patrick Henry is one of the people that's in the crowd,

424
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 9: and according to somebody, some people say Patrick Henry said

425
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 9: that his face was black from like arsenic or something

426
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 9: like that.

427
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: Arsenic it's a very powerful poison. It's a classical poison

428
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: that has been historically used for homicidal purposes. Suicide with

429
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: arsenic could have been very quick if the dosage were

430
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: large enough, but it would have been very painful. He

431
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 1: would have experienced vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea. Those symptoms

432
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: would be followed by numbness, and tingling of the extremities,

433
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: muscle cramping and death. I spoke with doctor Neil Bradberry,

434
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: who is a poison expert, and we talked about the

435
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: blackened face that Patrick Henry might have referred to. Doctor

436
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: Bradbury says that arsenic poisoning is associated with hyper pigmentation

437
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: of the skin, So while it is unlikely that the

438
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: victim's whole face was blackened, the hyperpigmentation and overgrowth of

439
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: skin would give the appearance of dark patches on the skin.

440
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: Of course, this takes time and would be more consistent

441
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: with long term ingestion of small doses rather than a

442
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 1: quick large dose. So is it likely that John Chisel

443
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: used arsenic to take his own life. I'm not so sure,

444
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: and doctor Bradbury is skeptical. He said this sounds more

445
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: like an accidental overdose or it could have been intentional.

446
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: Nicole Brown and Simon Robinson agree that suicide might not

447
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: have been his cause of death.

448
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: But but he has enemies, he has enemies. We don't know,

449
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 2: We don't know.

450
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: It's possible that.

451
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: Somebody killed him. It's possible, absolutely, so.

452
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 7: He may well have committed suicide. And I don't want

453
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 7: to inflame. Any more conspiracy theories across North America, I

454
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 7: think you've had plenty. But you know, you could almost

455
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 7: say was he offered it, was.

456
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: He depressed enough to take his own life that night

457
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: in October, or was he forced or convinced to take

458
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: his own life, or did someone ambush him just to

459
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: save the reputation of the gentry class. We may never

460
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: be sure exactly how John Chisel died, but it's clear

461
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: there could have been even more dramatic outcomes.

462
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 7: So if it been convicted, he would have been a

463
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 7: gentleman being hung or beheaded however they wished to do

464
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 7: it in those days. If it had been acquitted, the populace

465
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 7: could have risen up and you know, taken on the

466
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 7: powers that be in Virginia. So maybe the way events

467
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 7: transpired him, whether he did die a fit, or whether

468
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 7: it was suicide or possibly encouraged suicide.

469
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: Based on past events, Chisel would have likely been acquitted

470
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: because of his privilege, but an acquittal would have triggered

471
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: chaos in the lower classes.

472
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 7: If he had been acquitted, the public reaction could have

473
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 7: been explosive. So in some ways, I think it was

474
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 7: almost a good result for those in power that he

475
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 7: died on the eve of the trial.

476
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: Some of the material out there about Chisel is misleading.

477
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: He didn't die the night before his trial. He died

478
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: in October, and his trial wasn't scheduled until mid November

479
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: when the new Assembly convened. He didn't die the night

480
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: before he was to be taken to jail either. His

481
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: attorneys were still building their case at that time. I

482
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: think murder is just as likely as suicide, and many

483
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: colonists agreed with me. This story also spoke to how

484
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: widely and quickly the gossip spread. There were many, many

485
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: rumors about Chisel's death.

486
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 9: Now, these are different things that I've heard, but I

487
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 9: have no documentation for any of it. But I've heard

488
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 9: that he hanged himself.

489
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 6: I've also heard that too.

490
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 9: Another one is that he's found dead on the floor,

491
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 9: and I have no documentation that says okay. And then

492
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 9: there's the third thing that I've heard, again no documentation

493
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 9: at all, is that he's murdered, really by the governor

494
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 9: and some of his associates, his friends.

495
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 7: To make this go away.

496
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 9: He's a problem the governor or, you know, maybe as

497
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 9: high as the governor, but maybe not but you know

498
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 9: he's a big problem. Let's make the problem go away

499
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 9: and somebody else poisons him.

500
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: Once John Chisel was buried on his property in the countryside,

501
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: his family was left without a patriarch. Nicole Brown believes

502
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: that Chisel likely made the decision to take his life

503
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: in part for the sake of his family. She reminded

504
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: me of their financial situation during my interview with Robert Weathers.

505
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: Basically, under English common law, if you commit a felony

506
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: to oneself, or you commit a murder to yourself suicide,

507
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 2: it's considered a crime against your person, and like with

508
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: other felonies, your entire estate is forfeit too. Coblica, you know,

509
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 2: when we're talking about privilege. I think Chisel in some

510
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: ways still gets the last laugh in that The belief

511
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: from several historians when you look at the primary records

512
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 2: is that he probably did commit suicide, but no one

513
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: calls it that publicly, which means that publicly his family

514
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: still gets to maintain their status and their money because

515
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: no one is going to bring that crime of suicide

516
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:48,959
Speaker 2: against him.

517
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: Carson Hudson reminds us that John Chisel's death impacted his

518
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: family and the colony of Virginia.

519
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 9: Some consequences of that are that Scotch Town, which is

520
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 9: where Chisel was born and where he was buried, it

521
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 9: had been a family possession. It went to his daughter

522
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 9: and son in law, and because of the debts that

523
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 9: were owed because of the Robinson scandal, she had to

524
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 9: sell it, so it falls into Patrick Henry's hands.

525
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: Despite John Chisel's death, his four daughters and his wife

526
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: continued on. His two unmarried children, both wedded, wealthy men.

527
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: His wife, Elizabeth, died ten years after he did. The

528
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: Randolph family survived at Chisel's humiliation, but there was still

529
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: the taint left from John Robinson's financial scandal.

530
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 6: Too much power in one person's hands led to embarrassment, murder,

531
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 6: financial problems that were widespread. And that is abundantly clear

532
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 6: that that lesson was learned very quickly.

533
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: And yet both of the families carried on because the

534
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: story of John Robinson's theft and the deception had been

535
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: reframed by the gentry.

536
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 7: You know, I think that there had also been a

537
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 7: narrative that John Robinson was a lovely fellow. He was

538
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 7: just trying to do right by the planters and others.

539
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 7: Who was really struggling. It was his generosity that was

540
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 7: his failing. So I think there was a narrative, maybe

541
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 7: created to gloss over what we can call fraud and

542
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 7: dress it up as something a lot more palatable.

543
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: I asked historian Julie Richter about this story and its legacy.

544
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: I wish there were more documents, even more information, even

545
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: though I have a lot of it. What really happened

546
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: to John Chisel that night in October.

547
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 6: I'm one who firmly believes that will keep finding more

548
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 6: documents from the eighteenth century. People go through addicts, archives,

549
00:34:54,880 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 6: finished processing documents. You know, maybe someday somebody will or

550
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 6: a letter or even a diary that will add another

551
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 6: piece to this puzzle of this mystery. But it must

552
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 6: have been horrendous to a witnessed so I guess another

553
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 6: lesson as a historian, as a people in the past

554
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:17,479
Speaker 6: suffered trauma too.

555
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: Julie says that there are many victims in this case,

556
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: not just Chisel's family or religious family and his friends.

557
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: The people in the tavern who witnessed this event carried

558
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: the tragedy with them. The enslaved person who was ordered

559
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 1: to bring the sword would have been traumatized.

560
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 6: I mean, slavery is a violet institution inherently, but this

561
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 6: young boy is most likely in the audience. It seems

562
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 6: like a wrong word, and there may have been other

563
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 6: children in the tavern who are serving the customers. So

564
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 6: you're going to have people from a swath of the

565
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 6: Virginia society seeing this and then going to repeat the

566
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 6: story too. It's just cip yeah, it's yeah. It is trauma,

567
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 6: and it's one that would have deeply affected people.

568
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: One note about Robert Rutledge and his legacy. The Scottish

569
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: merchant had died intestate and without errors. Because of that,

570
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: Rutledge's two hundred and seventy two acres of land were

571
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: given to the Colony of Virginia. The same men who

572
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,959
Speaker 1: protected his killer now had possession of his land. After

573
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: America became America as we know it now, the land

574
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 1: was officially owned by the Commonwealth of Virginia, and then

575
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 1: something special happened. In seventeen ninety four, Virginia lawmakers turned

576
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: over the land once owned by Rutledge to a university

577
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: called Hampden Sydney College. It's now a private men's liberal

578
00:36:54,920 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: arts college. Robert Rutledge, the commoner had contributed to higher education.

579
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: So that is Rutledge's legacy. But what about John Chisel.

580
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 10: Father in law of the Speaker of the House of Burgesses,

581
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 10: married to a randof represented by a Wales who is

582
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 10: a randof two? Is he not? All of these people

583
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 10: know each other and are intermarried. And what do we

584
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 10: love more than rich people behaving badly?

585
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 5: And that's really kind of what you see throughout seventeen

586
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 5: sixty six, with all of these different events, with the

587
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 5: repeal of the Stamp Act, with the towns and Duties

588
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 5: set into place, the Declaratory Act in Parliament. In some ways,

589
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 5: I would liken it to the United States in nineteen

590
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 5: sixty eight, or much of America in twenty twenty, with

591
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 5: the protests against police killings of unarmed black citizens. There

592
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 5: are these incidents that inspire individuals to protest to try

593
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 5: to make sure that their rights are being preserved.

594
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: The time right before the Revolutionary War was electric. Everyone

595
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: could feel that something was coming. Robert Weathers says that

596
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: Robert Rutledge's murder was another match strike in the bomb

597
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: that would begin the American Revolutionary War.

598
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 10: It is hard for me to overstate to you, considering

599
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 10: that this is a case, I think that ninety nine

600
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 10: point nine to ninety nine percent of people have no

601
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 10: idea of, or have ever heard of, how important this

602
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 10: individual decision is to the era of the American Revolution.

603
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: The scene had been set because of the King's tightening

604
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: of the colonist's rites and in turn their fury over

605
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: their lack of freedom.

606
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 10: The Stamp Act the previous year shook the foundations of

607
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 10: trust in the overruling government of the British Empire. But

608
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 10: this shakes the trust of the mid and lower class

609
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 10: in their rulers here in Virginia, the gentry class. And

610
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 10: that has to be a terrifying notion in a slave

611
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 10: holding society, and it has to be a terrifying notion

612
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 10: for the top two percent.

613
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: It's incredible to think how one murder can lead to

614
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:22,760
Speaker 1: so much.

615
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,919
Speaker 10: A lot of people are of the impression that the

616
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 10: revolutionary war begins in April of seventeen seventy five at

617
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 10: Lexington and conquered. But those men, I'm telling you, those

618
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 10: men do not stand on the green at Lexington without

619
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 10: the events taking place here in Virginia. And that includes Chisel,

620
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 10: it includes Robinson. It includes the effects of the stamp tax.

621
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 10: That includes Henry and his resolutions. All of these things,

622
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 10: these point directly to one end. In hindsight, we can

623
00:39:54,800 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 10: see it. The groundwork is late, and it's laid perhaps

624
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 10: on what otherwise would have been a rather uneventful night,

625
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 10: had an uneventful tavern with two uneventful people in Western Virginia.

626
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this season of tenfold More Wicked

627
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 1: on exactly Right. Our next season premieres in two weeks,

628
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: but check out the trailer this coming Monday. As always,

629
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: thanks for coming back each week. We love our listeners.

630
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Speaker 1: American Sherlock and All That Is Wicked. This has been

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