1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: never told you. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg has 3 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: been in the news a lot in the past few weeks, 4 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: whether it's her health, Fox News falsely reporting her death, 5 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: or the multiple movies based on her life in theaters 6 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: right now, one of which RBG is nominated for Best 7 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: Documentary Feature, and she also has a cameo in the 8 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: upcoming Lego movie Too. A while back, Ridget and I 9 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: interviewed Iran Carmone, co author of Notorious rb G, The 10 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 1: Life and Times of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, when this documentary 11 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: RBG was about to be released, and we thought we 12 00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 1: would replay this episode for your enjoyment. So happy listening. Hey, 13 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're listening 14 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: the stuff mom never told you. On May four, RBG, 15 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: a new documentary about the life of Ruth bader Ginsburg 16 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: Pitt Theaters, and today we're going to talk about the 17 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: Notorious RBG as she is sometimes known, and the social 18 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: media frenzy surrounding her. Um and I'm part of that 19 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: social media frenzy. I'm a big fan. I can tell 20 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: by the shirts that you're wearing, but in fact about Annie. 21 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: When she is doing an episode about something specific, she 22 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: will dress I dress apart. She dresses apart, but only 23 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: I get to enjoy it, I know. But you can 24 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: imagine throwing her episode about action figures. We talked heavily 25 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: about the Avengers and you will are your special Avenger 26 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: shirt and now I'm wearing my RVT shirt. Always always 27 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: a good day when I get to wear it. Um 28 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: and uh, we're we'll do like a very brief background 29 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: here because we um, Kristen and Caroline did do a 30 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: pretty in depth episode on RBG, but just to just 31 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: to set the scene a little bit right Bridge, just 32 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: to set the scene exactly. So Ruth Bader Ginsburg wasn't 33 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: always the notorious RBG that we know and love. She 34 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: was born on March fifteenth, nineteen thirty three, a Pisces 35 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: like myself, so she's probably super creative and very flighty 36 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: and flighty. She's a justice. I'm not gonna put that 37 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: on her. That's on me. Um. She was born Joan 38 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: Ruth Bader in Brooklyn, New York. Uh. Fun fact, she 39 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: had the family nickname of Kiki because she was a 40 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: kicky baby, so that was her nickname um. When she 41 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: started school, her mom discovered that her class had every 42 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: little girl's named Joan, and so she should go by 43 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: Ruth instead to avoid confusion, and she put up with 44 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: sexist crap a lot. During the early days of her career. 45 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: She was doctor being pregnant from mental flaws. UM as newlyweds, 46 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: Ginsburg and her husband, Marty relocated to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, 47 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: where Marty was expected to fulfill his Army reserve duties 48 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: for the next two years. Ruth took the Civil Service 49 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: exam and qualified to be a claim to adjuster, but 50 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: then made the mistake of mentioning that she was three 51 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: months pregnant with her daughter Jane. Suddenly RVGS civil service 52 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: ranking was reduced and with it her title and pay. 53 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: That's terrible. But also even in looking at her biography 54 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: a little bit, you can sort of see where all 55 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: of these sort of stings of sexism not only were 56 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: they harmful for her career, but it's almost like she 57 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, well, I can remember this or later, right, 58 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: and she it seems like she really they really sort 59 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: of like lit a feminist fire in her a kind 60 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: of way. Motivators for sure, exactly exactly. Honestly, the dean 61 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: of her law school sounds like kind of a jerk. 62 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty six, Ginsburgh was one of only nine 63 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: female students matriculating into Harvard Law. Now her dean, It's 64 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: been reported Aaron Griswold hosted a dinner for the women 65 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: and at the end of the meal he went through 66 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: the women one by one and said, how do you 67 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: justify taking a spot away from a qualified man? Ah, yeah, 68 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: that's pretty bad. Later it was recorded that he was 69 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: joking and it was just it was all in good fun. 70 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 1: But you know, part of me is like, oh, I'm sure, well, sure, 71 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: what the backlash happened? It's a joke. Yeah yeah, But 72 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: I also feel like it's you're talking about people who 73 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: had just become law school students. If the dean of 74 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: your law school, even if he thought this was a 75 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: funny prank or like, oh, this is where they're gonna 76 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: get their go, that would be really demoralizing. And it 77 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: would that would if that happened to me as a 78 00:04:57,880 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: young student, that would stick with me for life, I guess, 79 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: so saying and so, either even if he thought that 80 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: this as a joke, it was all in good fun 81 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: because of the power and balance is there. I can 82 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: imagine that that was not in good fun for the 83 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: women who were participating in that dinner. Yeah, and it 84 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: would kind of overshadow because in your head, you're probably thinking, 85 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: how am I gonna what jobs am I going to get? 86 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: And then you hear this joke and you're thinking, oh, well, 87 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: maybe I have gotten I've succeeded in this one step, 88 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 1: but I have all these other hurdles now of finding 89 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: a job when I'm competing with men and they're probably 90 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: just going to go with men a lot of the time. Exactly. 91 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: That's probably exactly how I felt. Yeah, not a good feeling. 92 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: It's not a good feeling. And furthermore, even though she 93 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: graduated at the top of her class, he found that 94 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: very few law firms would open their doors to women. 95 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: Despite being you know, really talented and having glowing recommendations 96 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: from her professor's, Ginsburg was actually only able to get 97 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: her foot in the door with a lower ranking district 98 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: court judge, Edmund Palmary, and this was only after one 99 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: of her mentors threatened to stop sending other clerks his 100 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: way if he turned her down, and so again, she 101 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: was someone who was super talented, yet she had to 102 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: go through all of these means just to get her 103 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: foot in the door, despite the fact that they should 104 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: have been knocking down her door her right. But when 105 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: she found her group, she really really found it. She 106 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: was notable for really understanding that the way that you 107 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: create social change is a long game. Right. She was 108 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: playing chess, not checkers, and her work focused on winnable, 109 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: achievable fights and chipping away at gender inequality that way. 110 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: And so it was thinking about things of like, Okay, 111 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: how could I win this small thing that's going to 112 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: have incremental change down the line, which I think is 113 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 1: so savvy and so smart. Yeah, she was like slowly 114 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: moving as forward in ways that she she felt she 115 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: could succeed um. In nineteen seventy two, Ginsburg co founded 116 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,119 Speaker 1: the Women's Rights Projects at the American Civil Liberties Union 117 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: the a c l U, and in three she became 118 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: the a c l USED General Counsel. The Women's Rights 119 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: Project and related to a c l U projects, participated 120 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: in three hundred gender discrimination cases by nineteen seventy four. 121 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: As the director of the a c l USE Women's 122 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: Rights Projects, she argued six gender discrimination cases before the 123 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: Supreme Court between nineteen seventy three and nineteen seventy six, 124 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: winning five. Rather than asking the Court to end all 125 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: gender discrimination at once, Ginsburg charted a strategic course, taking 126 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: aim at specific discriminatory statutes and building on each successive victory. 127 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: She chose plaintiffs carefully, at times picking male plaintiffs to 128 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: demonstrate that gender discrimination was harmful to both men and women. 129 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: The laws Ginsburg targeted included those that, on the surface 130 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: appeared beneficial to women, but in fact reinforced the notion 131 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: that women needed to be dependent on men. I think 132 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: that's so smart, because, let's face it, if people feel like, 133 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, oh, this is something women are asking for 134 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: some they special, you know, when they want this focusing 135 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: on you know, men, I think is so smart because 136 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: people will look at that and think, oh, this isn't 137 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: just women wanting to quote something special. It's this is 138 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: about equality. And this seems to permeate through her career. 139 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: I had that when dealing with cases like this, she 140 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: decided to use the word gender and not sex because 141 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: she thought the word sex would distract or sort of 142 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: confuse people, And so you can really get a sense 143 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: of how smart she was that sort of packaging and 144 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: marketing and being strategic about these cases. Yeah, um, just 145 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: knowing kind of how to how to sell it, how 146 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: to get it, get it the support behind it, and 147 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: how to get it past or how to win these 148 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: arguments of very impressive and eventually it led to her 149 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: nomination to the Supreme Court of the United States. UM. 150 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 1: President Bill Clinton nominated her as an Associate Justice of 151 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court on June fourteenth, to fill the seat 152 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: vacated by retiring Justice Byron White. Getsburg was recommended to 153 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: Clinton by then U S. Attorney General Janet Reno after 154 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: a suggestion by Utah Republican Senator Orrin Hatch. At the 155 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: time of her nomination, Ginsburg was viewed as a moderate, 156 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: which might surprise some of you. Um. Clinton was reportedly 157 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: looking to increase the Court's diversity, which Ginsburgh did as 158 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: the first Jewish justice since the nineteen sixty nine resignation 159 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: of Justice A. Fortis, and as only the second female. 160 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm appointee. Wow, that's I mean, awesome, but also I 161 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: know that's always when you hear those first and you're 162 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: like yeay, but also really, yeah, that's generally my reaction 163 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: to First, So Annie, what are some of your favorite 164 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: things about RBG? Oh? I love that picture of her 165 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: nodding off during the State of the Union of Jess 166 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: and according to her, was because she'd had a little 167 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: too much why I can identify. And also when she 168 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: was going undergoing treatments for colon cancer and pancreatic cancer 169 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, she didn't miss one oral argument. 170 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: And her workout is intense to this day, intense, and 171 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: as someone who works out a lot, I she's a 172 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: role model in that way. And recently Stephen Colbert um 173 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: he did the work out with her and it was 174 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: hilarious and of course he could not keep up and 175 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: who could. I know. I love that about her. What 176 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: about you? Do you have a favorite? Yeah? My favorite 177 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: thing about her, this is a bit strange, is that, 178 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: even though she's this amazing figure this icon, you can 179 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: just tell that she is deep down a grandma right 180 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: like she comes off, she just gives me such grandma vibes. 181 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: Our guest Arend will be talking to a bit later 182 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: in today's episode. There's this great MSNBC exclusive interview that 183 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: Arin did with RBG and in this interview, Rin shows 184 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: her on her phone a picture of people who have 185 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: gotten RBG inspired tattoos, and Rbg's reaction is such a 186 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: great grandmother reaction. Here's what she says. I saw that 187 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: and I thought it was I thought it was a joke. 188 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: I thought it was something you pasted onto your own. 189 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: But I am a little distressed that people are really 190 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: doing that. Distressed why because why would you make something 191 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: that can't be removed on yourself? Now that's some classic 192 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: grandma reaction. So I just love that, you know, even 193 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: though she's this amazing, amazing badass, you know, Supreme Court justice, 194 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: that she also you can just tell that she's a grandma. 195 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: And I love that. I love that she you know, 196 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: it just seems so normal despite being so important and influential. 197 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: So that's what I love the most about her. I think, Yeah, 198 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: she's very relatable and actually here from the Washington Post, 199 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: or In Carmone in just a second, or In actually 200 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: wrote the book on RBG. Literally, we'll hear from her 201 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: after this quick break, and we're back today. We're joined 202 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: by a Wren Carmone um a brief by on her. 203 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: She's a journalist, author, speaker. She is a contributing writer 204 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: to the Washington Post Outlook section and the co author 205 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: of Notorious rb G, The Life and Times of Ruth 206 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: Bader Ginsburg, which spent three months on the Times best 207 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: seller List. And I believe you worked with her. I 208 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: did be worked together at MSNBC. She's actually She's one 209 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: of the reasons why I wanted to work there at 210 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: the time. She was one of the figures who was 211 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: doing the most like fearless feminist journalism out there. And 212 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: I was a big reader of Rin's work before I 213 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: ever worked at MSNBC. And when I first got to 214 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: work with her, I was like, oh my god, it's 215 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: a Rin basically basically, but I was never cool. But um, 216 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: that's why I'm so happy that she's joining us today. 217 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: So my first question for you is probably one that 218 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: you get kind of a lot. So I know that 219 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: the concept of this book was popularized by Shanna Kness 220 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: next Tumbler account in support of Ginsburg's descent of the 221 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: Shelby County the Holder decision, which struck down a portion 222 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: of the Voting Rights Act. But how did this book 223 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: come to be? Like? Is it is it typical for 224 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 1: a book to be based on a tumbler account. Is 225 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: that unusual? Um, well, I think it's it's not typical 226 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: for it to be a book that anybody wants to read, 227 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: to be honest. It so Shanna Uh never really was 228 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: trying to create some kind of social phenomenon. She was 229 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: just upset that the Supreme Courts had struck down this 230 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: really important voting rights protection that would have the impact 231 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: of disenfranchising people's color. And so when she wanted to 232 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: celebrate Justice Ginsburg's discent, she just decided uh to take 233 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: to the Internet and make a play on words on 234 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: Biggie Smalls and this than eighty year old jewish uh 235 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: tiny a lady with a very very powerful voice. Um. 236 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: But you know, obviously it struck a chord at our 237 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: editor at HarperCollins, Julia chafit through the real visionary and 238 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: she looked at all of these spontaneous celebrations, not just Shauna's, 239 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: also our friend Amina, So you know, she did a meme. 240 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: This is also its featured in this upcoming documentary You 241 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: Can't spell truth without Ruth. She plastered she the Funks Frank, 242 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: she plastered posters all around DC with it. Um, there 243 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: there was something happening, and Julia recognized it and said 244 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: that there needed to be a new kind of biography 245 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: that would capture the spirit of the Tumbler, which was 246 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: it's not really substantive. I mean again, it really started 247 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: because of a voting rights descent, but also have as 248 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: kind of playful as you say spirit. Uh, you know, 249 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: juxtaposed this serious high court judge with a gangster rapper, 250 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: but as justice skips like says Kisburgh likes to say, 251 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: they're both from Brooklyn's um. So, so Julia, Julia came 252 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: up with the idea for the book went to Shanna. 253 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: Shanna was as she's a baby at that point, she 254 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: was in her uh third year of law school, I 255 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: believe had just begun. She started to tumble in her 256 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: second year of law school. And Shanna just said, sure, 257 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: but you know, I want to write with somebody because 258 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: I don't know how to write a book. Um and 259 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: so uh. Through the great Anna Homes, my former boss 260 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: at Jezebel, who was first to Bridge about this project, 261 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: I ended up teaming up with Shanna and Julia and 262 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: at a breaknext pace writing the book together. Conceptualizing the book. Um, 263 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: I did the words Shawna was in charge of the images. 264 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: We came up with all the ideas together. We both 265 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: did interviews, Shawna fact checked it, and it was the 266 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: labor of love that we juggled with at that point. 267 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: You know, Bridget and I used to work together at MSNBC. 268 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: I had a full time job at MSNBC. Shanna was 269 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: in law school. Uh. It was sort of a crazy pace. 270 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: But what we realized is that no matter how many 271 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: hours we were working, nothing could compare to Justice Ginsburgh's 272 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: own stamina. She can get by on two hours of 273 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: sleep at night and you see her high quality output. 274 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: So that was our real inspiration. Wow, So what's it like? 275 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: Does that of curiosity? What's it like to write a 276 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: book with another person? I have to say that I 277 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: really enjoyed the collaborative process of working in pairs. You know, Ultimately, 278 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: the actual words of the book I wrote by myself 279 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: in a room, but that was only one part of it. Um. 280 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: From the beginning, you know, we sat down and we 281 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: figured out like what's each chapter. We had really really 282 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: strict deadlines because the book had to come about in 283 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: a breakneck pace by book standards. Um, I think, let's 284 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: see it was about six months until the entire book 285 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: was due. Um. So we sat down Sean and I 286 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: in my living room and we figured out, you know, 287 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: how do we organize this, What parts of her life 288 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: are in it, what aren't? Um? What does the book 289 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: look like? What does it feel like? You know, when 290 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: you ask, uh, what's what is turning a tumbler into 291 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: a book? We thought about how we wanted us to 292 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: feel like more than just kind of like a meme 293 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: that somebody printed that and stut between the covers of 294 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: a book. Um, you know. And that's what I mean 295 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: when I say, did anybody turn and blog into a 296 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: book that people wanted to read? Well, it's it's taking 297 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: the spirit of it, but it's also thinking, this is 298 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: a story that people are going to want to read. 299 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: This is a beautiful object that people are going to 300 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: want to hold. This is going to have visual components 301 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: and charts and annotated dissents, you know, with handwritten in 302 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: the margins by Justice Ginsburg's former clerks. So all along, 303 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: you know, the story was a really important part of it. 304 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: And the reporting that we did. You know, we interviewed 305 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: her clerks and her children and people she worked with 306 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: and so long. Um, that was a big part of it, 307 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: But it was also about the entire experience of having 308 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: kind of different entry points into her story. And so 309 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: for some people that would be sitting down and reading 310 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: the words of the books from beginning to end, and 311 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: for other people it might be like, Wow, she was 312 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: such a babe when she was young, and we have 313 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: photos of that too. And for some people it might 314 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: be I would never read a legal brief, but now 315 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: the key portions of it are excerpted in the book, 316 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: and some of the most brilliant legal minds, uh like 317 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: uh jan A Nelson from the Legal Defense on the 318 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: end of the LCP Legal Defense fun who was actually 319 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: arguing these voting rights cases writing in the margins onjustice 320 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: gives Brioke Shelby County descent and explaining it to you 321 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: in her voice and in a kind of conversational way 322 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,959 Speaker 1: like your friend would break it down for you. So 323 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: all of those different entry points, we thought, we're going 324 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: to be the way that the reader is going to 325 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: experience the story of her life in a way that 326 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: they might not in any other books. Yeah, that's something 327 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: that I love about the book so much is that 328 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: I'm not someone who would ever maybe read a legal brief. 329 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: But I have this book on my coffee table, and 330 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: people who come to my apartment, you know, they're like, oh, RBG. 331 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: You know it's it's there are so many different entry points. 332 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: No matter what your what, your connection to RBG is 333 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: so so out of curiosity. So what is your like, 334 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: what personally draws you to to Ginsburgh? What is it 335 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: about her as a figure that you feel, um, you know, 336 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: drawn to. Well, the one of the essential mysteries of 337 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: the book was that the book sought to solve is 338 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: how did she become the notorious RBG? Because when you 339 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: read about her, when she was first confirmed to the 340 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, everybody says that she's this moderate consensus seeker, 341 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: she shy, she's reserved um. But that's not really the 342 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: whole story because before she ever was a judge, she 343 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: was um the co founder of the A f o 344 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: U Women's Rights Project and one of the most important, 345 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: is not the most important litigators fighting on behalf of 346 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: constitutional equality for women. And so in order to do that, 347 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: she wasn't such a goal get a long kind of person. 348 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: She wasn't so sort of a you know, handmaiden of 349 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: the status quo. In fact, she was going in front 350 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: of these all male courts and arguing that women were people, 351 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: which at the time no Supreme court had ever recognized. 352 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: So that was pretty radical. But but there's a paradox 353 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: in that her style was not so radical. UM. And 354 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: what we understood in writing the book is that the 355 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: way that she became that person is by suffering enormous 356 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: adversity in her life. UM. She lost her sister and 357 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: her mother are very young. UM. While she was UM 358 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: in law school, she was she was married and a 359 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: young mother. And while juggling all of that, her husband 360 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: became pregnant. Because me, her husband became ill with cancer. UM. 361 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: She was a victim of pregnancy discrimination. UM twice over. UM. 362 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: She was repeatedly passed over for jobs despite being incredibly brilliant. 363 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: And what she took from all of this was a 364 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: kind of steely determination, but it was also very self contained. 365 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: I mean, she was not the person you know with 366 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 1: her fist up in the air. UM. She was the 367 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: person writing the radical brief and somehow convincing the world 368 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: that she was being conciliatory and consensus seeking. And so 369 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: for me, what was really fascinating was how did she 370 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: become this person? And what's what's incredible is that, I 371 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: mean history also forced trying to become a person that 372 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,479 Speaker 1: she hadn't been to before, which is a fire starter. 373 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: You know, the person who is going head to head 374 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: with Donald Trump and who was writing fierce dis sense 375 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: and who's out on the road being in public in 376 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: a way that very few Supreme Court justices have ever been. 377 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: That person has been created by this historical moment wherein 378 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: where the Court has lurched to the right um where 379 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: obviously the presidency is what it is, And she's the 380 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: person for this historical moment, whether anyone could have predicted 381 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: it or not. She's the person who has the kind 382 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: of stamina and steely determination to see it through to 383 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: the end. Yeah. Kind of going off of that. When 384 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: RBG was first appointed to the Supreme Court, Clinton thought 385 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,479 Speaker 1: she was a moderate, But we think of her today 386 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: as this badass progressive. What do you make of this paradox? Well, 387 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 1: I think part of it is as she has genuinely 388 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: become more comfortable using her voice in a fiercer way, 389 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: and I think she there are some issues in fact 390 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: in which I think she has moved to the left, 391 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: so to speak, and so even though that's not what 392 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: legal scholars would like to perceive it as. For example, 393 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: I think there were some early decisions. I mean, she's 394 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: always been fiercely approachoic. She has always fought for racial 395 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: justice and to uphold legal remedies to try to remain 396 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: historic racial inequality. UM. But you know, there were, for example, 397 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: there were some criminal justice decisions that might be considered 398 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: more moderate that she joined in the past. But in 399 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: the past couple of years there's been a dissenting block 400 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: that it's just her and justice. So to Mayor, oftentimes 401 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: she's joining, she's the only justice joining justice so to 402 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: Mayor's opinions in various cases that have to do with 403 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 1: Fourth Amendment rights and other issues, that it's the and 404 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: the death penalty. Um. It does seem like to some 405 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: extent her views have changed, but was also changed that 406 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: she's become more comfortable, um, being a public voice. You know. 407 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: Justice Ginsburgh I think never saw herself as being in 408 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: spending her life in the minority. You know, only recently 409 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: did she have her first chance since she joined the 410 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: Supreme Court to assign a majority opinion, meaning that she 411 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: was the most senior justice in the majority. She has 412 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: always been the senior justice in the minority of the 413 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: five four maths that happens on some of these controversial decisions, 414 00:23:55,240 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: and so uh history has made her into the eight dissenter, 415 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: and she embraced that role with gusto. Yeah, nobody can 416 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: dissent like RB. I love a good blistering man. I 417 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 1: like that woman can slag the collar. A good question, 418 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: is it is it true that she so she's known 419 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: for her collars. Is it true that she wears them 420 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: specifically when she's going to dissent. She does indeed have 421 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: a special dissenting collar, which interestingly is made by Banana Republic. 422 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: She got it in a gift bag when she was 423 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 1: glamor a Woman of the Year, and now you know 424 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: she wears it every time she descents a woe betide you. 425 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I even got a chance when I fack 426 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: checked the book to show her a court sketch, because 427 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: you know, there are no cameras glad in the courtroom, 428 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: and so I showed her a sketch that we were 429 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: going to use in the book, and I said, I 430 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: just need to verify that this is your dissenting collar 431 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: in this little scribble, and she said, yes, I wonder 432 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: if she wears it when she's going to go argue 433 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: with the dry cleaner, if she's like, how do you 434 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: put on my special arguing collar? Well, you know. Fun fact. 435 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: Last September she officiated at my wedding and she and 436 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: everybody asked, you know, what is she going to wear? 437 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: And my husband kept saying, well, I hope she doesn't 438 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: wear her dissension color. Yeah, that's amazing, that's amazing. I 439 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: hope she wore her a Gree collar, like, yes, I'm 440 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: okay with this. Yes, she did wear her judicial robes, 441 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: and I think you know some of the listen, some 442 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: of those she just wears her oral arguments to be 443 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: out in a bad I don't know if she has 444 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: like a special wedding color or not. I think she 445 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: told me that the color that she had was sent 446 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: to her by a fan, So she does wear fan crafts. 447 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: If anyone out there has to descend collar that they're 448 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: dying to make for her or sorry, and a Greek collar, 449 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: I see crafty Annie's eyes lighting up here. I've got 450 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: to go right now, podcast over project, I gotta hit 451 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: up those knowing you don't so well, what was it 452 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: you mentioned? I mean, she officiated your wedding, which I 453 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: saw on Instagram and I couldn't believe it. What was that? Like? 454 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: Jefice Ginsburg loves weddings. I mean, obviously she does not 455 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: have time to afreciate every single wedding that she's asked for. 456 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: So was this great honor that she came to Brooklyn Um, 457 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: place of her childhood, uh, to to affreciate our wedding 458 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: in September. Um. She you know, she was funny and 459 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: gracious and amazing, and she stayed her dinner and the toast. 460 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: During the toast, uh, my brother said that in lieu 461 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: of toasting us, he was just going to read the 462 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: entigraphy of Jeffice Ginsburg's descend in Shelby County, and she 463 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: burst out laughing as though that was definitely a highlight. Oh, 464 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: I love it, I love it. I mean one of 465 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: the reasons that it was so special, I mean, she 466 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: had met my husband before in the course of writing 467 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: the book, and he was a great support to me 468 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: to read the insane process of writing the book. Um. 469 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: But she had the kind of mary that any any 470 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 1: person looking to partnership with dream of having um. Her 471 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: husband was a successful lawyer in his own right, but 472 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: energetically defended her, uh far for her, advocated for her, 473 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,239 Speaker 1: supported her through difficult times in her life. I mean, 474 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: they supported each other. But unfortunately, we really don't have 475 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: so many models of marriage that are true partnership where 476 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: people take turns supporting each other. And so, you know, 477 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: one of the things that we told her when we 478 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: asked about it was that we really sought to emulate 479 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: the kind of partnership that they had. That's beautiful. Yeah, 480 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: I mean, that's something that I loved about her, is that, 481 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's when we talk about public 482 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: figures through are women oftentimes it's like, oh, what's their marriage, Like, 483 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: are they married? But I think that because her marriage 484 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: really was this egalitarian model for how you can be 485 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: a feminist and how you can be this like badass 486 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: professional woman but also have your marriage kind of exist 487 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: as a way to sustain that work and not something 488 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: that gets in the way. In that word, I think 489 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: is is really unusual and something we don't often see 490 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: that we should definitely be celebrating it. Yeah, I mean, 491 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: I think, you know, traditional injustices are not so open 492 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: about their lives, and I do think that there's a service. 493 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: One of the reviewers of our book said this, and 494 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about it a lot. She was talking 495 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: about the justice's willingness to think with the Lynch h 496 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: Walda in The New Republic writing about the justice's willingness 497 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: to allow herself to be photographed and to talk about 498 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: elements of her personal life and not really kind of, 499 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: I mean she kind of she is very private, but 500 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: compared to how other Supreme Court justices have been in 501 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: the public eye, she's open and generous and talking about 502 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: the challenges that she's faced and also how she's made 503 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: at work. And given that we have so few women 504 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: and positions of power, let alone women women in positions 505 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: of power who were committed to feminists and anti risist ideas, um, 506 00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: I think it's really important to figure out, like, how 507 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: does that life look like? You know, what is how 508 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: do you how do you make it work? How do 509 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: you have a happy life? You know? And how she 510 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: had a happy life has been died in two thousand 511 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: and ten, but they were together for nearly sixty years 512 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: and had a remarkable, if not perfect. I mean nothing 513 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: perfect partnership. And you know, the documentary RBG that's coming 514 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: out has really exceptional never before seen footage of RBG 515 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: and her husband Marty interacting where you just see what 516 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: a love Affharaoh was. I mean, it was a great 517 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: intellectual and personal and familial partnership, but they were just 518 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: in love with each other. It's just incredible to see it. 519 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: And so to know that she could both contribute so 520 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: much to the cause of equality and to the law 521 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: and also be a human being. I think that that 522 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: it doesn't service for people trying to understand, like how 523 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: do you be in the world totally so, so how 524 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,239 Speaker 1: don't coming off that point? I know that relationships and 525 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: friendships are very very important to RBG. She's written quite 526 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,719 Speaker 1: a bit about her friendship with Sandra Day O'Connor, you know, 527 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: both these awesome women who were on the Supreme Court. Um. 528 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: But something that comes up a lot and people talk 529 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: about her as her sort of I guess strange bedfellow 530 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: friendships with people that you might not think that she 531 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,479 Speaker 1: would be super close with, people like that like antem Scalia, Right, 532 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: do you do you see that as something that is 533 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I I always wonder like are they really friends? 534 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: Are they It's just one of those things where it's like, oh, 535 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: we get along super well, like we have no problems, 536 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: but really they're not. You know, are these relationships are 537 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: a key part of what makes her her? Yes? I mean, 538 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: I think in particular her friendship with Scalia and you know, 539 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: with Santrade O'Connor was somebody who she didn't always agree with, 540 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: a close appointed by wrong with break and as well 541 00:30:53,680 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: there friendships across different views of the world. I think 542 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: for her were really important and showing um that that 543 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: human beings can talk to each other and work together 544 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: productively despite all their differences. And I think she's really 545 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: committed to the Supreme Courts functioning as it should. She 546 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: talks a lot about collegiality. I mean, these these are 547 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: very quaint notions in Washington d C. Of Trump um 548 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: or even you know, the Washington d C of Mitch McConnell. 549 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: She told me when I interviewed her UM in two 550 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: thousand and fifteen, Justice Ginsburgh said, yeah, maybe someday we'll 551 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: have a Congress that works again. And you know, it's 552 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: not it's not just it's not just about friendship. Although 553 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: her friendship with Justice Scalia was real. I mean they 554 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: would spend New Year's together, and they would go to 555 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: the opera together, and she liked that he made her laugh. 556 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: I mean, she's a great sense of humor. People think 557 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: that she's very serious, but in fact she's the devilish 558 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: sense of humanity. Was very witty. But beyond that, it 559 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: was also about strengthening the work of the cord. Santardey 560 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: O'Connor frequently crossed the aisle and she's a woman's right. 561 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: She helped save Rovie Wade in and my Parenthood versus 562 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: Casey and Scalia also, even though a lot of the 563 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: times they disagreed, they would join together on Fourth Amendment decisions, 564 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,479 Speaker 1: and even when he was descending, like he did in 565 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: US versus Virginia, which was one of her most important 566 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: majority case of where she um she essentially enshrined into 567 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: law some of the work that she had been doing 568 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: of a litigator um saying that the Virginia Military Institute 569 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: could not bar women from entry. Even when Justice Scalia 570 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: dissented in that case, she felt like he made it 571 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: made her work stronger because he gave her a copy 572 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: of his descent on a Friday, and she said, he 573 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: destroyed my weekend, but he made my opinion so much 574 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: better just thinking about the spirit of debate and truly 575 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: engaging with each other and not in an ad Homa way. 576 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: Has always done something that's very important to her. Let's 577 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: take a quick break, h and we're back. Yeah. You 578 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: touched on too of her kind of big cases decisions 579 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: that we we were going to ask about. So, um, 580 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: we were wondering, what are some of the decisions in 581 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: cases that you think define RBG professionally? One did she 582 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: did as a judge or as a lawyer, either all 583 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: of the above. Um, well, you know one of her 584 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: one of her favorite cases that she did as a lawyer. Uh, 585 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: this was Stephen Wise and Felds. It's a case that 586 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: she started and took all the way to the Supreme Court, 587 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: believe nineteen seventy six. This was a kise of a 588 00:33:54,520 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: widowed father who um was not given the same kind 589 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: of parental benefits because he was a widower and his 590 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: wife who had died in childbirth was a woman. The 591 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: way that the tax code was construed, they're really only 592 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: were these kinds of benefits available to women from male 593 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: wage and or earners, and so she got each of 594 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: the members of the Supreme Court enough for a majority 595 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: to agree that this violated his rights as a man, 596 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: as a father to equal protection. It violated the dead 597 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: woman's rights because her work was being treated as lesser 598 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: than that of a man. And it also violated the 599 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 1: rights of the child UM who wasn't getting the same 600 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: access to caregiver benefits um just because the caregiver who 601 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: was taking care of him as a man as the Counterintuitively, 602 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: you know a lot of people at the time that 603 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: while bringing all these cases on behalf of men, it's 604 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: the women's rights project, not the men's rights project. But 605 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: her long game was that if you drew attention to 606 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: waves in which gender constricted everybody and also in limited 607 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: the rights of men, more people would understand that what 608 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 1: was at stake, you know, was much bigger than whether 609 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: women could do just what men could do. It was 610 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: about rebuilding a society in which everybody could participate equally. Yeah, 611 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: you touched on something that I love about her career. 612 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: RBG really kind of focused on the long game, right, 613 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: So she thought about, what are some achievable, winnable ways 614 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: that I can ship away at gender imbalance, and she 615 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: often and this is like strategically very interesting. She often 616 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: shows cases that involved men and so you know, like 617 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: the case you just described where it's a it's clearly 618 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: a gender imbalance, but you it's not one of the 619 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: people wouldn't look at it and say, oh, it's the 620 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,439 Speaker 1: women wanting something special, right, That's not how someone would 621 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: look at it and think it's really this. It really 622 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 1: shows a lot of savvy right where a lot of 623 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: people will be playing checkers and she's playing chess, where 624 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: she's thinking about it in a long term way, in 625 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: a way that I think is often difficult, Like if 626 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: you're someone who wants to make progressive change or social change, 627 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: it's difficult to think of it as this will have 628 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: a lasting impact down the line, because you want something 629 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: that's going to be like I can see the results now, 630 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: this is going to happen, you know, right away, very quickly. 631 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: And she really just I don't know, I just really 632 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: appreciate her strategic acumen when it comes to the cases 633 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: that she took on and the ways that she went 634 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: about them. She was your stategic because when she began 635 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen seventies, uh no Supreme Court decision 636 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: had ever said yet discriminating against women was unconstitutional because 637 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: all of the ways that the law treated men and 638 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: women differently were construed as favors to women. So mping 639 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: women from jury service, UM, treating them differently in the 640 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: legal or political context, uh a fewer benefits, and so on, 641 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: preferring men over women in administrative cases. UM. All of 642 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: that was seen as women being put on a pedestal. 643 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 1: It was seen as UH doing women a favor, making 644 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,959 Speaker 1: women take mandatory unpaid maternity ly when they became prying, 645 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: and basically forcing a mom off the job. All of 646 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 1: that was saying, we're doing you a favor. Go back 647 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: to the home and you'll be taken care of by 648 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 1: a man, even though that was not a reality. UH. 649 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: That was that did not reflect every woman's reality that 650 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: they had a male salary to rely on, particularly women 651 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,720 Speaker 1: of color. And so by the end of her time 652 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: going up against that barrier, UH, the court had come 653 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: around to the idea that women also deserved equal protection 654 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: under the law. But she did so by packing cases 655 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: that we're not sweeping. They were definitely step by step incremental. 656 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: I think that that's one reason why she's become so 657 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: radicalized in the last few years. Why she had become 658 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: such a fierce dissenter because um cases like Shelby County 659 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: were activists. They I mean, Shelby County gutted the Voting 660 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: Rights Actor, which had just been reauthorized just a few 661 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,399 Speaker 1: years earlier and signed by George W. Bush, had by 662 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 1: bipartisan majority of Congress, and signed by Republican President. And 663 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: here was this George Shelby Bush appoint to John Roberts 664 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: saying that racism is dead and we don't need the 665 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: Voting Rights Act anymore. I wonder what he thinks about 666 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: racism being dead now. And she, you know, did so 667 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: on the sleeping theory that didn't really have ground. I mean, 668 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: the entire point of the way that the Supreme Court 669 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: works is step by step cases building on cases. But 670 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: the protest has always been that it's liberal toward judicial activists. 671 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: And in a series of cases, including this one, the 672 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: Core did act in a kind of sweeping way, and 673 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,280 Speaker 1: I think that helped create justice. Ginsburg in sendatorious rbg 674 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: out of outrage for the fact that the rules are 675 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: not being followed, and her notion was that if we 676 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: did act in an incremental way to try to create 677 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: a more equal country and to try to um make 678 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: good on the promise of we the people, to mean 679 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: all the people, that we had to do it in 680 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 1: a step by step away to avoid backlash. Of course, 681 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: the backlash has come anyway. The times have forced her 682 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: to be you know what she is now, which is 683 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: whenever possible. She crafted a compromise, and there have been 684 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: a few surprising times in the last couple of years 685 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,360 Speaker 1: where she hasn't offended and where she's convinced Justice Kennedy 686 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: the Keys swing vote to join her in really important cases, 687 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: including cases involving abortion rights and immigration, and you know 688 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: recently also a case with with Judge Justice Corsage. But 689 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 1: when the time comes, she's ready with that hot dissenting 690 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:18,800 Speaker 1: pen inc Yeah. So something this is a just a 691 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: switch gears a little bit. Something that I spend a 692 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,799 Speaker 1: lot of time thinking about, is this sort of progressive 693 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: tradition that is president in the Jewish community. Do you 694 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: feel like she is a like? Is this part of 695 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 1: her legacy like as a Jewish woman? You know, um, 696 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: there are so many great examples of radical progressive fighters 697 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: for social change who are Jewish and their you know, 698 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 1: their religion really informs why they come, you know, why 699 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 1: they are involved in social change work, which I think 700 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,959 Speaker 1: is really beautiful and something that we don't talk enough about. 701 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: Is this something that you see in her legacy. I 702 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: know that she has talked about being inspired by the 703 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: Jewish tradition that is very much based in law and 704 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: justice and in in seeking justice. And she actually has 705 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: uh a quote displayed in her office displayed in her 706 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,280 Speaker 1: office about seeking justice and all things. But I also 707 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: know that um her early sturing the feminism actually happened 708 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: because as much as there is the social justice tradition 709 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 1: in Judaism, like many religions, there's also a patriarchal tradition. 710 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: And so when her mother died, she was not counted 711 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: and gathering in sort of the quorum for prayer um 712 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: because she was a woman. And it was one of 713 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,279 Speaker 1: the first moments she was eighteen maybe seventeen at the 714 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:42,919 Speaker 1: time and immediately realized that she did not count as 715 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: a mourner because she was a woman. And I think 716 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: that that actually laid the ground was for her feminism. 717 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: So yes, definitely, she draws on the tradition of Jewish 718 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: commitment to the text, which is very much a part 719 00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:01,280 Speaker 1: of Judaism. Legal um textualism, uh clote reading of laws 720 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: in the Constitution. Certainly um is something that's cocurrent with 721 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: the way that the Judaism is practice in the United 722 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,359 Speaker 1: States and commitment to equality. But also I think questioning 723 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: the role of women in Judaism also helped make her 724 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:21,759 Speaker 1: who she is. Yeah, I wanted to go back to 725 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: something you've mentioned a couple of times, which is abortion. UM. 726 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: Anti choice folks like to point out sometimes that RBG 727 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 1: has an issue with roe v Wade, But what's the 728 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 1: reality of her thoughts on roe v Wade. Well, we 729 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:44,359 Speaker 1: talked about Justice Ginsburg's commitment to incremental change. When she 730 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: has talked about her problems with Roevie Wade, it has 731 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: not been because she doesn't support a woman's access to abortion. 732 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 1: Because she vociferously supports reproductive freedom, whether that's the decision 733 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:04,360 Speaker 1: to use contraception, have an abortion, or she represented women 734 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: who were being forced to have abortions by the government. 735 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: UH and women in North Carolina, women of color were 736 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: sterilized against their will were also some of her clients. 737 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 1: So the full panoply of reproductive freedom has long been 738 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: a really core part of the work that she's done. 739 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 1: But her problem with Roe v. Wade was twofold. One 740 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: is that she thought that it went too far, too fast, 741 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,840 Speaker 1: so it struck down all of the criminal abortion bands 742 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: in a single decision, and she thought that if the 743 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 1: court had moved more slowly, then potentially there would have 744 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: been less of a backlash, which a lot of scholars 745 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: disagree with, but this is her well earned opinion. Um 746 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: a lot of people think that there would have been 747 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: a backlash no matter what. The other problem that she 748 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: has is that the reasoning of the opinion, she wanted 749 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: it to be grounded in women's equality, not in the 750 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,279 Speaker 1: right to private See now, there were equality arguments made 751 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,399 Speaker 1: to the justices, but they weren't ready to hear them 752 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: at that point. Subsequently, there's been a lot more of 753 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,239 Speaker 1: understanding about how both liberty and equality are important to 754 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:18,240 Speaker 1: reproductive freedom. But if you read rov. Wade, as Justice 755 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 1: Ginsburgh has often pointed out, it talks about the doctor's 756 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: right to practice, it hardly at all considers what this 757 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,280 Speaker 1: means in a woman's life. It was written by Justice 758 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: Harry Blackman, who was had been a general counsel of 759 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: the Mayo Clinic and was really sympathetic to doctor's arguments. 760 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: And this notion of privacy is, you know, doesn't get 761 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:45,000 Speaker 1: you very far in a reproductive justice context. Right is, 762 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: if it's your right to privacy, then do you have 763 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,719 Speaker 1: a right to, for example, get medicaid coverage of abortion 764 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: while the Court has found no, but you do not. Um. 765 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 1: And that's certainly an equality issue that has a very 766 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,359 Speaker 1: different impact on low income people and people of color 767 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: in this country. So it's a limited doctrine um that 768 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: doesn't take into account all of the Court's other cases 769 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 1: that are about equality of women um and and so 770 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,479 Speaker 1: I think if she were rewriting history, she's often said 771 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 1: that she wishes that her case about an Air Force 772 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: nurse to the Air Force is actually saying that she 773 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: had to either get an abortion on base because abortion 774 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 1: was actually legal in on military basis despite being illegal 775 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:36,920 Speaker 1: in the United States, or quit. And so she wanted 776 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,479 Speaker 1: it to focus on the full option of reproductive choice 777 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: in it being about a woman's right to chart her 778 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,319 Speaker 1: own course and the government not being able to tell 779 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 1: her what to do. But this is the history that 780 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 1: we have totally totally. So my last question What is 781 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 1: something about RBG that would surprise people? What is something 782 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: about her that you're You're like, Oh, people don't know 783 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 1: this about her. People don't know necessarily that she can 784 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:07,400 Speaker 1: do twenty push up. I don't. I don't know. Actually, 785 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: she worked out with Stephen Colmer recently, and I believe 786 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:16,320 Speaker 1: you can also in the forthcoming documentary RBG, her trainer 787 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 1: is interviewed and you can see Justice Ginsburg workout and 788 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 1: she there she is doing push ups and squats and 789 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: pull up maybe not pull ups, but she is an 790 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,399 Speaker 1: eighty five year old two time cancer survivor who has 791 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:34,359 Speaker 1: never missed a day on the bench, and part of 792 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,440 Speaker 1: what accounts for her stamina is her fierce workout routine 793 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 1: and her amazing trainer, Bryant, who has his own book 794 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 1: called The RBG Workout, which is an awesome book. There's 795 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,399 Speaker 1: a entire bookshelf of RBG books out there right now, 796 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,799 Speaker 1: and I love him and his book. We also have 797 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,319 Speaker 1: an illustrated version of the workout in our book and 798 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,080 Speaker 1: an interview with him. Um. He's part of the reason 799 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: that Justice Ginsburg, whose life is very important to the 800 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,000 Speaker 1: future of democracy, is able to keep her breakneckt schedule 801 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: because she worked out every day and twice a week 802 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,439 Speaker 1: with him. I am so glad you mentioned that because 803 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 1: that's one of my favorite facts about her. She could 804 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 1: probably kick our asses. Yeah, we did her workout for 805 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: the Melissa Harris Parry Show r I P. M HP Show, 806 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:29,480 Speaker 1: which was a great show. That show. Yeah, and uh 807 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: and definitely by the end when we're like you win work, 808 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,040 Speaker 1: I love it. That's like one of my favorite I 809 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:38,360 Speaker 1: don't know if it's a mean, but one of my 810 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 1: favorite RBG sayings is what is it? I'm going to 811 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 1: butcher it? But it's like, RBG didn't survive cancer twice 812 00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: for you to stay in bed and watch Law in 813 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: Order of B runs. Right, It's like this idea that 814 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,479 Speaker 1: if she can be cancer twice, work out every day, 815 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: be this badass contributor to the Supreme Court, you can 816 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 1: get out of bed, you know, turn off Law and 817 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 1: Order and like go start yours. I think about that almost. 818 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 1: I think about it too. I mean, I had to 819 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,760 Speaker 1: Fish is exactly fifty years older than me, and I'm 820 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,520 Speaker 1: exhausted just reading about her schedule. But it's definitely something 821 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,800 Speaker 1: to aspire to. Absolutely could not have put it better. Myself, Arian, 822 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here today. Where can 823 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 1: folks find out more about what you're up to? Uh? 824 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,279 Speaker 1: Usually Twitter is the best way. Um, I'm just I 825 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 1: R I N on Twitter or Rin carmelon on Instagram. Also, 826 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,560 Speaker 1: we we recently came out with a young reader's edition 827 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,960 Speaker 1: of Notorious RBG, which is available in bookstores and online. Um, 828 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,760 Speaker 1: it's for the eight ten year old reader in your life, 829 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 1: or really anyone who likes a shorter, clearer, more explained 830 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: version of Notorious RBG. So you've heard it here first. 831 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,240 Speaker 1: If you've got a little one in your life who 832 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,520 Speaker 1: is maybe a future is a Freme Court justice in 833 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,799 Speaker 1: the making, go out and pick up this edition for 834 00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 1: her because it's gonna probably change your life, yes, or 835 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: for him? For him, yeah, exactly Why should read about RBG? 836 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,759 Speaker 1: Absolutely awesome. Thank you so much for being here a minute. 837 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:09,920 Speaker 1: I really really appreciate it. It's fun to be with 838 00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:15,319 Speaker 1: you guys. Thank you well. Sminthy listeners, what are your 839 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,880 Speaker 1: thoughts on RBG? Do you have the T shirt and 840 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 1: the book and the dolls and the Halloween costumes? If 841 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,160 Speaker 1: you addressed your child up as RBG for Halloween? Please 842 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,400 Speaker 1: let us know tag us on all those Instagram photos. 843 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at stuff but I've 844 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: Never Told You, on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, and 845 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,840 Speaker 1: as always, send us your favorite RBG descent via email 846 00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:46,359 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com