WEBVTT - Casey Krahenbuhl 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.120 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today, 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.560 I am joined by Casey Crombull, one of David McLay 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:11.880 kids lead associates. If you haven't yet, please rate and 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:16.680 review the podcast in iTunes and without further ado, here's Casey. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:20.680 I miss the green for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:23.079 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.119 And when I find my ball in a brid Egg 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.240 Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg, 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.480 Bride Egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off the 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:32.280 golf course. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.720 What do you think the biggest smith in golf architecture is? 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:11.000 I would say that, you know, our predecessors were somehow 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:15.080 much more talented than the current group of architects. 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:20.800 And by predecessors you made which any architects choose them 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:22.120 the Golden Age architects. 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:26.280 You know, there's a myth that they were so incredibly 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.000 amazing that we should go back and do everything that 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:34.160 they were doing. And I stin't think that's true. Most 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:39.040 industries evolve. But do you think that the best courses 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.240 in the world are the old courses? Like the say 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:46.600 some rankings which shall I would say, for the most part, 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:48.680 because they got the very best sites and they had 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.760 no constraints. They had no environmental constraints, they had no 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.960 no one over their shoulder, they had no housing projects. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.000 So they got the very best sites of the world, 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:03.920 like Cypher's Point for example, and that's you know that 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.520 it shows because they're some of the greatest golf courses. 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:11.160 But if you gave you know, any I would say, 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.320 you know, any of my the group of architects in 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.519 our group, I would say, David Kidd, Tom Doak Gill 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.720 hands you give any of these guys that site, I 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:24.320 would argue that they would do a better dough. 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.240 It's interesting because a lot of times people will say, well, 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.080 I don't know if I'd come up with this, but 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:35.320 not necessarily they wouldn't come up with that, but they 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:37.320 would come up with me something differently. 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.240 And I agree they'd come up with a better eighteenth 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.120 toll for Cyprist point. They come up with a better 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:44.560 first toal for Cyclist Point. 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.680 I think the eighteenth hole at a golf course is overrated. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.519 Yeah, there's certainly a lot of golf courses, especially in 0:02:57.560 --> 0:02:59.919 the British Isles, where you're playing back Inland from the 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.560 eighteenth hole, and it's sort of the crescendo of the 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:08.360 of the tale that you you know, you just it 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:10.600 kind of lets you down and gets you back home. 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:14.680 And you know, I would say that, you know, cru 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:16.560 eighteen is certainly a letdown. 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:21.760 I think about the great I think great golf courses 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:28.240 mirror great songs, and I don't know any great song 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:32.399 that ends with the loudest part of the song. Yeah, 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:36.440 So I think where that crescendo is, like it is 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:42.520 hidden fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, maybe even seventeen, but then eighteen, 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:48.120 and I think that's it. But different styles, it's so key. 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.880 Variety, Yeah, I mean, I built a golf course in 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.400 Nicaragua in the eighteenth hole was a par three right 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:58.080 out on the beach, and it's fantastic, you know, I 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:01.640 don't I don't know that that's so it would have 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.559 been better if it was the seventeenth hole, you know, particularly, 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.320 So I think, you know, variety is probably the biggest 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:10.480 and most important game that not won shoe fits every 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.040 but you know, there's every golf course is different, and 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.160 the good ones are amazing for their own merits and 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.159 they're being you know, very different merits for each each 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:23.920 amazing course that you loved. 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.800 How'd you get into golf course architecture? 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.560 I was in college and just started. 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:35.120 It. 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.760 Started working on a local golf course construction project because 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.400 I wanted to stay in northern Arizona, which is where 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:45.520 I went to school for the summer. So my friend was, 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:47.919 you know, helping build a golf course down the street 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:53.560 called Forest Highlands and for Tom Wishoff, and and you know, 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.000 I went out, there's a laborer with a shovel in 0:04:56.040 --> 0:05:02.640 my hand, and I putted that for probably five months maybe, 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:08.120 and then went away to Mexico for after I graduated 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.120 to do some some studying in Spanish and spend a 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:13.800 year there going to school, and came back and didn't 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.000 really have a plan, so I you know, went back 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.039 to this construction company. I was like, hey, you know, 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:21.360 that was pretty fun. Let's you know, I'll call them 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:23.000 and see if I can get a job with them. 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.400 So that was a company called Wadsworth, and they put 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.320 me to work right away. They were busy, as you know, 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:34.960 in nineteen ninety nine, things were cranking, so I spent 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:40.400 I wasn't a real you know, enthusiast about architecture at 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:42.440 that time. I just liked being out in the woods 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:46.240 and you know, being out on construction projects. And so 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.680 quickly with Wadsworth, within a couple of years, I was 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:53.480 a project manager, running you know, big projects for some 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:55.240 of the best architects in the world. So I was 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:59.039 working with Fazzio and Nicholas and you know, all these guys. 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:03.040 And I slowly got more and more into architecture and 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.680 spent more and more time with these architects as I 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:08.600 kind of got more and more and more into the 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:13.640 high profile, you know projects, and I really started falling 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:16.839 in love with the process. And I didn't know anything 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.239 about the golden Age of architecture. I didn't know anything 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.080 about you know, these old golf courses that were built 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:26.760 in the twenties. But I loved being part of the 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:31.320 the you know, the process of taking bare land and 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.520 creating these amazing things. I felt. What I kept finding 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.760 out was that these architects just weren't there. They weren't 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.159 present the draw seat of plans and give them to 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:46.559 the contractor we you know, do our best to build 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.120 what they drew, not what fit in the land, not 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.279 what you know, not what should have been built, not 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.200 something amazing, something that was on a piece of paper, 0:06:55.600 --> 0:07:00.599 and I really found it kind of boring. 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:00.920 You know. 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.720 I tried to improvise as much as I could in 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:08.360 building what these architects had drawn, but then they'd come 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:10.160 out and they'd you know, hey, this was you know, 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.600 this bump was supposed to be two inches higher. You know, 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:16.040 there was always they were always kind of trying to 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.440 stifle the imagination of me and the team I was 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:23.080 working with. So eventually I met David on when we 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.840 were building Tethero. I went to Oregon to build it 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:33.040 as the contractor and he was the architect. So David 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:37.960 was the first guy I met that was an improviser. 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:42.320 You know, the plans we basically threw out the window, 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.480 they didn't mean anything. You know, we had a rough routing, 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:49.960 We stuck to that routing, and basically him and I, 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.840 he didn't have an associate or anybody involved. He moved 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.320 to bed and suddenly I realized that there's a guy that, 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:02.040 you know, an architect that's so willing to spend his 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.520 time on the site that it you know, it made 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.720 everybody on the whole project much more enthused, and he 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.400 wanted us to use our imagination and builds. I'll try it, 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:14.560 build it, you know, build whatever you want. Let's I'll 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:16.680 come back and look at it, and then we tweak it, 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:18.840 you know. So he kind of took me under his 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:25.040 wing and really started to kind of hone my craft 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.520 of architecture. And I worked for you know, I worked 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.360 for probably twenty different architects as a contractor, so I 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:34.040 saw all different manners and ways. But what I never 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:35.920 saw was someone that was on site all the time. 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.040 And he was there all the time. He moved to org. 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.680 Outside of just the imagination and being able to improvise. 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:46.520 What was the kind of the biggest aha moment that 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:48.680 you had early on with David? 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:53.679 But I think it was just, you know, when he 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:56.360 it was very simple. It was just what I said 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:58.400 when he said to me, yeah, I just moved here 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:00.960 with my family and it was day one of the 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:04.520 project and rented the house and moved there. And I 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:06.360 was like, what do you mean. He's like, well, I 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:08.960 just moved here. We're going to fill this together. I 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.360 was like, no, no, no, I'm the contractor. He goes, yeah, 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:13.000 and I'm the architect and I'm going to be here 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.120 more or less every day, and he was there a lot. 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:19.520 You know, he still was he had another project in 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:21.640 the UK, so he was going back and forth from 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.040 the UK quite a bit. But him and I, you know, 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.120 that was the first aha moment, and then from then 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:28.840 on it was just you know, it was fun, it 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:34.000 was exciting. It was you know, it was very different 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.160 from what I had seen in the past, the ten 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:37.480 years previous to that. 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.599 They say, it's so much more inclusive as opposed to 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:43.760 like you probably felt like almost detached. 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.400 Absolutely they were you know, when I was the contractor, 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.400 the architect was almost sort of the enemy, like you 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:53.480 were waiting for them to show up because they're just 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.520 going to change everything that you already did, or you know, 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.680 they're going to blow in, give a bunch of comments 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.920 and blow out of town and that's it. And it was, 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:08.640 you know, it was everyone got inspired by David being 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.640 on site. My whole team, guys I worked with, you 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:15.199 know for ten years that had never seen that kind 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.280 of thing, and suddenly we were, you know, having beers 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:19.560 after work and with the architect and he's sitting on 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.760 the tailgate with us, and you know, it was really 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:27.079 really inspiring, and it really that That moment was when 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.960 I said, this is awesome. I've never wanted to be 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:33.280 a golf course architect until I met David. So I'm like, 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.080 that's what I want to do. I want to I 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:37.120 want to build a golf course, but I also want 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:40.440 to design it. You know. That's where I am today. 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:46.600 That's it's interesting because you were a golf course builder. 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:51.120 You know, you built golf courses, but becoming you know, 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:54.880 part of the team that designed it. That's a seismic shift. 0:10:54.920 --> 0:11:01.040 And I think it's will contractors, you know, the design 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.680 contract model. Do you think do you foresee that being 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.040 a relevant model ten years from now? 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.840 Only for some I don't think that most people in 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:21.560 our industry are willing to sacrifice their lifestyle to be 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.640 on a golf course all the time. I mean our team, 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:30.240 I was here at sand Valley virtually every day of construction. 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:34.080 David was here in probably half the time. Nick, our 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.440 other associate, he moved to la to build a golf 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:40.480 course rolling Hills. He spent two years there away from 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.040 his family. You know, I've moved around with my family 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.760 a lot. It takes a lot of you know, a 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:53.839 lot of time and energy to really do the design, build, 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:59.439 you know thing, and so you know, I don't I 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.320 don't force see that it's going to be a huge 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:05.760 thing for our industry because I don't. I don't. I 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.120 don't know that people are as committed as they should 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.040 as they need to be for that model. Right. 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.480 I was down at Trinity Forests and all these volunteers 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:20.320 were and I'd walk and they need stop and talk, 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:21.960 and then what do you think about the golf course? 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:25.440 I'd be like, Oh, it's great. I'd be really, you know, 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.480 like this state of shock because it's so much different 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:33.280 than everything else in Dallas. And the analogy I started 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.319 to use was like, well, like most of your courses 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.960 around here are you know, the architect grew up plans, 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.360 hand them over to contractor who built them out, Like 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.960 they're kind of like a like a subdivision house, and 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.520 this is like a hand crafted house. You know that 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.760 somebody was here, that architect was on site all a 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.360 lot of the time, but everything, every little detail was 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.280 thought out. And I felt like that kind of analogy 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.240 clicked with them, like the handcrafted model, like it takes 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:08.960 way more time, way more effort, but the end result 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.760 is all the details are right and. 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:17.200 You know, that's why the best golf courses, modern day 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:21.839 golf courses are being built by the guys that spend 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.960 the most time on site. You know Tom Doak, you 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.480 know Brian Swanik, his guy moves to tar moves to 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.880 New Zealand to Bill Tari and Brian's been all over 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.720 the place. You know. Bill Cohorr was up here at 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.400 sand Valley. You know, he basically came up here with 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:37.280 his wife and camped out in one of the houses 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.280 and you know, sat on the sand throw every day. 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.600 It's it's you know, Gil Hants is on the bulldozer, 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.560 you know, moves to Brazil. I mean, the the guys 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:52.920 that are in our group are on site. 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:58.800 It's that funny because Donald Ross, like some of his 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.079 best screens are the ones that are closest to his 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.800 house at Pinehurst and closest to his house at Essex. 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.840 Yeah, and you know that shows a lot, you know, 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.600 because there's plenty of other ones that were mailed in. Right, 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:17.880 There's plenty of golf courses that where the architect is 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:23.160 detached from the construction process. And when that happens, then 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.640 the motives are totally different for the people building it. 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.040 When I was a contractor, I had very different motives 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.600 than I do as an architect. And my motives weren't 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:37.080 always you know, to spend to reshape a green twelve 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.280 times because you can't get it right. And that happens 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.520 all the time now, you know, Yeah, we're reshaping and 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.720 tweaking all the time until the very last minute, until 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.840 the seed goes down. And it just wasn't the same 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.520 as a contractor. So there's plenty of great contractors out there, 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.520 and they build good golf courses, and there's plenty of 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.960 great architects. You know, that model isn't producing a lot 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.280 of top one hundred in the world golf courses. 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:08.800 So of the architects you worked with with a contractor, like, 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.520 I'm hard on a lot of architects and from that 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.600 general era, like, what are some things that I might 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.120 be overlooking as to what they did well? 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:27.280 I think the probably the group that gets the least 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:36.440 love in them, you know, in the. 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:37.840 Golf architecture world is Tom Bosio. And what you know 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:43.720 what Tom produced and reproduced over and over on a 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.880 lot a lot of golf courses, and the biggest thing 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:53.440 is playability. He produced or designed really playable golf courses 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.680 all over the country. You didn't do a lot around 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.000 the world because we didn't really want to work, didn't 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:06.240 need to work outside the US. But you know, the 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:14.320 Fasio guys in that era were probably as committed as 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.840 anyone today. I worked on project in Mexico and they 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:21.400 had two full time you know, design associates there all 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.280 the time, and they were they were committed. The problem 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:26.480 that they always had was that there was too many 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.600 tears that you know, they had of Austin and they 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.360 had of Boston, and Tom was there, you know, he 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.120 wasn't there enough and he would come in and make 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.120 pretty large decisions. But they were very committed, and I 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.600 think they they built a lot of really playable golf courses. 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.320 And you know that's obviously something that David and I 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:47.920 are are trying to push and you know his core 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:50.320 in our design ethos is is playability. 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.920 That's the thing with Fasio courses. There's always like big 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.760 corridor space I think where he'd messed so, like just 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.240 make a fair way, like it just was so much 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.160 long rough. Yeah, and like if you just you look 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.480 at these places, like you never go there. Most Fasio 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:10.720 courses are never like offensive. 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.200 Ever, they're never. I mean there's some really good ones 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:18.560 that you know, they're they're good, they're really really solid. 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:23.080 Yeah, but they never they never inspire you. Like I 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.560 think something I look at it with golf, like at 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:29.080 a very core level, like the really great golf courses, 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:30.639 like you start to get sad at the end of 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:32.280 the round because you know it's coming to the end 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:37.840 for sure, And I think that that's where you're having 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:39.920 so much fun, you know, and golf is supposed to 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.280 be fun. It's tell me about David. You guys have 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:48.520 undergone kind of almost like a retransformation back to you know, 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.320 the fun principles. Tell me about the journey and kind 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:57.080 of the change in the ethos over the last five 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.000 six years, you know. 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.680 My So, you know, that's a great question because I 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:08.280 don't think it was. It was like a blink of 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:12.960 time when there was particularly two courses, Tetheroe and the 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.679 Castle Course that were being built kind of simultaneously. And 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:18.720 when I met David, he said, hey, I got to 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:20.879 take you over to Scotland right at the beginning of 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.880 construction at Tetherow and he's like, let's go. We're going 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:26.880 to Scotland. So we flew over to Scotland. He showed 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:29.879 the castle course. It was there was a few holes 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.720 that had been grassed, I think, and and he he 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.000 you know, he showed it, showed me how awesome. Well 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:37.879 I loved it. I walked it, you know, went to 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.240 the old course. We spent some time in St Andrews 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:43.720 and I really got to kind of see what he 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:48.840 was doing at the castle. And so when I went 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.760 back to Tetheroe, we kind of tried to emulate that. 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.240 And one of the shapers actually from the castle Cose 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.679 Mick mcchaine, he came to Tetheroe as well, and yeah, 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:05.720 Mick McShane amazing at, amazing at And so Tetherowe and 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:10.160 the Castle course are like twin brothers almost. There. There's 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:14.159 you know, there's the there's you know, fringy areas in 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.760 the middle of fairways and there's you know, wild greens, 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.119 and you know, neither of the golf courses were on sand, 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:26.960 so they were very similar. You know, they're twin brothers, 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.359 and that's I was almost trying to build what I 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:36.640 thought David wanted. And really it's those two courses that 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:42.960 sort of you know, got us David maybe a reputation 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.280 of building these things that are maybe a little too difficult. 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.639 I think they're both fantastic courses, and if they were 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.680 one hundred years old, I think both of the courses 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:58.240 would be highly revered. You know, new courses that are bold, 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:01.159 you know, don't don't usually. 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.119 So I haven't played either. But one of the things 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:08.359 I think is that different isn't always bad. Like I think, 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.919 especially with today's like era of social media, there's like 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:17.720 a there's a potential for everything to become the same 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:20.760 because of you know, like, hey, this works here, so 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.720 let's keep doing it here and here and here, and 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.320 you know, you went over to the castle course inside 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.320 and that's your first job with your new boss, and 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.680 you come back it's like this must have How hard 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:36.600 is it to build new stuff like and new ideas 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:38.680 and constantly come up with new ideas. 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.399 It's hard, I mean, and it's it's you know, I 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:44.960 think with Taylor on the castle, you know he was 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:46.679 trying to build David was trying to build both of 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:48.920 them at the same time. He had me building Taylor, 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.160 and he had another guy named Paul Kimber building the castle, 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:56.800 and what neither of us did was show restraint, you know, 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.359 neither of us. I was pushing the gas pedal as 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.200 hard as I could, and you know Paul was doing 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:07.360 the same in Scotland, and I think, you know, we 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.000 were trying to do something super different. I had no 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.960 one telling me no, everyone was you know, it was yes, yes, yes. 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.639 And David, you know, for whatever, I think for a 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.040 blink of time he maybe just lost a little bit 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:21.720 of focus on on both of those projects and let 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.199 me and Paul sort of, you know, really really be 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.879 and the shapers too, they were pushing the limits, you know. 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:31.680 Mick McShane was, he was He wanted to create the wildest, 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:35.560 crazy screens of all time. And I think it's easy 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:39.320 to do something different, but it's really hard to then 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:42.840 make it playable. We have to show some restraint. If 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:45.800 I could do tether over again, a little bit of 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.240 restraint around the greens, a few things to change, and 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:51.520 it's a top you know, fifty in the world golf 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:53.520 course because I think it's amazing and it's on a 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:55.600 great site. Same with the Castle course. 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:56.280 You know. 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.199 So I think it's easy to do something different, but 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:03.840 how will it be viewed long term? Is it a 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:07.160 good golf course. You know, that's really the balance as 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:10.640 you try to do something that hasn't been done before. 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:15.720 But you know, if you don't show any restraint and 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:20.080 then then probably gonna playability will suffer. 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:28.639 You think about Sagrass. When Sagrass first opened, everybody hated it. 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:31.720 I mean, like the players called it like you know, 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:34.840 goofy golf, and you read the quotes from that first players. 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:38.800 But once people get used to it different, it's not 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:40.720 necessarily always that bad. 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:44.640 Yeah, I agree, And like I said, I think long 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:47.520 term the cast course in tether will be seen as 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:50.920 you know, amazing golf courses because I think they're they're 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:54.480 both they're both really amazing sites. 0:22:56.520 --> 0:23:00.320 Since you're think that the greatest sites were the Golden 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:04.240 Age architects and today's architect would have, you know, built 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:07.800 a better course in your opinion, what's the greatest course 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:08.320 in the world. 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:16.919 Probably Pine Valley. Yeah, I mean I think Pine Valley 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:21.480 is sort of you know, it's it's everything that I 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:24.360 think great golf is. I think it's the greens are 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:27.120 you know, amazing. I think it's it's nice. I feel 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:31.879 like it's fairly wide and and you know, pretty generous 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:34.560 off the tee, which is great. I didn't lose the ball, 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:39.720 you know, either time I played it, and very challenging 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:43.360 into the green. So you know the challenge is there. 0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:44.800 You've got to be on it. You have to be 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:48.480 you know, you have to be playing good golf and 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:49.760 the setting is fantastic. 0:23:50.600 --> 0:23:52.360 It's that's a that's a good sight. 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:56.520 Yeah, it is an amazing thing. You can you know, 0:23:56.640 --> 0:23:59.919 you can see what great architects today like Tom Doe 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:05.000 Guitar ev what guys like us can do with amazing sights. Right, 0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:09.359 it's it's you know, it is uh. I think both 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:12.080 these courses sand Ally and Mammothoons are the same. We 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:15.040 get great sites with no constraints, and we can and 0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:18.560 the Kaisers have let us, you know, let us come 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:21.639 out here and lay off wherever we want, make everything 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:24.240 else secondary. And you know that's what those Golden Age 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:26.560 architects did. They didn't have someone telling them where the 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:29.720 clubhouse needed to be and you know, telling them about 0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:32.879 a green tree frog that you know had to we 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:35.960 had to keep all these trees for environmental reasons. I mean, 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:37.560 none of that stuff has happening back then. 0:24:38.440 --> 0:24:41.440 So what's the biggest challenge when you get a world 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:43.719 class site like mammothin's. 0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:48.880 Not disappointing people. That's the biggest challenge. I mean, if 0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:52.240 you don't nail it, you know, there's no excuse, right. 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:55.800 We have a lot of excuses on other projects where 0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:59.280 it's other people are or other you know, circumstances are 0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:04.359 constraining our our creativity. But someone like man students, there 0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:08.040 is no constraints. There's no one to blame. If it's 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:10.240 not great, it's David Nieball. 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:14.439 So I think one of the most unique things here 0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:18.800 is the routing and how it's you know, you've worked 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:22.080 over tough ground that other architects passed on, you know, 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:26.760 like from your standpoint, how the process of coming up 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:31.600 with this routing with David and Nick. How difficult was that. 0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:35.439 No, I wasn't very involved in the routing because I 0:25:35.520 --> 0:25:37.199 was working on other stuff. I think I was in 0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:40.479 England at the time, so Nick and David were over 0:25:40.600 --> 0:25:46.400 here together. But you know Nick, who's our other partner. 0:25:46.760 --> 0:25:50.480 He has a really strong background in landscape architecture and 0:25:51.520 --> 0:25:53.919 I know it's a dirty word these days, but in 0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:58.359 AutoCAD and you know, using using the tools that modern 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:02.199 architects have on their finger tips to model the ground, 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:05.159 and you know a lot of other architects looked at 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:08.439 our site and no one, no one could really figure 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:11.560 it out. Then, you know, Nick did some amazing stuff 0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:15.800 with AutoCAD and modeled the the landscape and we figured 0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:18.560 out that there was this big giant V ridge running 0:26:18.640 --> 0:26:21.000 through this site. And it was if we modeled the 0:26:21.200 --> 0:26:24.480 entire holding landholding, which was like a couple of thousand acres, 0:26:24.960 --> 0:26:29.160 and that ridge completely stood out. You can you can 0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:33.240 use AutoCAD to create you know, different colors for different elevations. 0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:36.560 So instantly we had this big giant map with two 0:26:36.560 --> 0:26:39.320 thousand acres on it and there's just a giant V ridge. 0:26:39.359 --> 0:26:43.160 You know, that was the most prominent feature by far 0:26:43.280 --> 0:26:46.600 on the whole landscape, and instantly David and Nick gravitated 0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:50.760 towards it. So, you know, we were looking for a 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:54.320 dramatic site and we had to find a way through it. 0:26:54.359 --> 0:26:57.360 And those guys with the you know, with the AutoCAD 0:26:57.440 --> 0:26:59.240 work that they did, they found a way to get 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:02.640 over the ridge and different places and sort of set 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:04.640 up the whole routing. You know, there was only one 0:27:04.640 --> 0:27:08.159 way to really cross on the north end on the 0:27:08.200 --> 0:27:11.600 south end and sort of laid itself out from there. 0:27:12.960 --> 0:27:15.800 What's the one thing that you think you wish that 0:27:16.560 --> 0:27:20.560 you know, the regular golfer wouldn't know before playing mammothon. 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:24.240 I don't think I want him to know anything. I 0:27:24.280 --> 0:27:27.040 want them to just come out and, you know, experience 0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:30.040 that walk through the breezeway of the clubhouse out onto 0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:33.879 that awesome hutting green and see, you know, the landscape 0:27:33.880 --> 0:27:37.399 before them. And my hope is they think, like you know, 0:27:37.480 --> 0:27:41.119 they feel that it was always a sand baron, that 0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:43.240 it never was a pine forest, and that you know, 0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:45.000 it always sort of looked like that and we just 0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:49.159 laid golf over it. But you know, I don't I 0:27:49.160 --> 0:27:51.720 don't feel that you need to explain it to anybody. 0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:53.960 You don't need to tell them anything. You just let 0:27:54.040 --> 0:27:55.880 them show up and experience it. 0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:57.480 What about your job? 0:27:59.080 --> 0:27:59.960 What about my job? 0:28:00.640 --> 0:28:04.080 What would you want somebody to understand more about your job? 0:28:04.800 --> 0:28:09.159 I guess you know probably what every other you know, 0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:12.879 associate designer would want. And a little recognition you know 0:28:12.920 --> 0:28:16.479 that that David didn't design it all by himself. You 0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:18.480 know there was a team of guys in granted he's 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:20.879 the inspiration and he's the whole reason we're here. And 0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:24.639 you know he he taught me everything I know about 0:28:25.280 --> 0:28:28.640 golf course design. But you know, we also have I'm 0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:30.040 a big part of this, you know, I was here 0:28:30.080 --> 0:28:32.359 every day and my shape, you know, the shapers that 0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:36.239 work for us, Bernie Poul Verrari and Luis Barrella. We're 0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:39.920 out here every day and you know this place is 0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:42.600 you know, I wish the average person knew that it 0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:47.640 was more of a team effort, you know, But that's you. 0:28:47.600 --> 0:28:50.760 Know, I think that goes with everything. It's I think 0:28:50.760 --> 0:28:54.840 it's almost it's almost a media's fault because it's way 0:28:54.880 --> 0:28:58.480 easier to like gravitate towards one person than tell a 0:28:58.520 --> 0:28:59.400 story of a team. 0:28:59.560 --> 0:29:02.960 You know, absolutely there's there's a leader in every team, 0:29:03.040 --> 0:29:07.080 and you know, and and David deserves it, you know, 0:29:07.200 --> 0:29:10.200 but and I don't. It doesn't really bother me that much. 0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:13.520 But it's uh, and David's really well, really good at 0:29:13.800 --> 0:29:16.800 trying to, you know, say it as in the media 0:29:16.840 --> 0:29:18.640 that it's always a team effort. You know that it's 0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:20.719 him and I and Nick and are shapers and the 0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:21.960 rest of the guys on the group. 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:27.960 But so if you could build, you know, one kind 0:29:28.000 --> 0:29:32.200 of different style of golf, you know, whether it be 0:29:32.240 --> 0:29:35.080 a different concept with the number of holes or par 0:29:35.480 --> 0:29:36.400 or what. 0:29:36.280 --> 0:29:40.760 Would it be. You know, obviously, I think the biggest 0:29:40.840 --> 0:29:44.440 thing is just time, right that that none of us 0:29:44.640 --> 0:29:49.920 is as fathers and generally have as much time as 0:29:50.200 --> 0:29:52.680 as you know, as our parents did. My dad can 0:29:52.760 --> 0:29:55.960 go out and golf all day on Saturday and you know, 0:29:56.160 --> 0:29:59.440 no big deal. But you know, as we as we 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:03.320 involved as parents, I can't go on a Saturday morning 0:30:03.320 --> 0:30:05.440 and play golf every week, you know, and I don't 0:30:05.480 --> 0:30:07.320 want to. I'd rather spend the time with my kids. 0:30:07.360 --> 0:30:11.480 So it would really be about trying to do things quicker. 0:30:13.000 --> 0:30:14.960 I don't know. I think it's more of a style 0:30:15.040 --> 0:30:19.960 of design, you know, that that promotes a faster pace 0:30:20.000 --> 0:30:24.440 of play. The pace of play is a is at 0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:28.320 playing slow golf. I hate it, and if I'm behind 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:30.800 a group and it's slow, I almost just want to 0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:32.840 walk off no matter where I'm playing. 0:30:33.920 --> 0:30:36.560 That's what I was playing Whistling Straight a couple of 0:30:36.600 --> 0:30:40.800 weeks ago. Took us five and a half hours to play, 0:30:41.320 --> 0:30:45.520 and we waited on every tea box. It was maddening. 0:30:46.800 --> 0:30:48.560 Made me want to walk off the golf course. 0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:51.960 You know, I think I think the and obviously you know, 0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:56.200 the private club you know, ideas probably the only place 0:30:56.240 --> 0:30:58.880 where this really works. But the ahoopie match play thing, 0:30:58.960 --> 0:31:00.600 I've heard you talking about that, and I think I 0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:04.280 heard Gil talking about it on your podcast. But the 0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:06.680 idea of match play, you know, in the US is 0:31:06.680 --> 0:31:10.840 something that isn't fully embraced, and in the UK it is. 0:31:10.880 --> 0:31:12.880 And I spent a couple of years living in London 0:31:12.960 --> 0:31:16.360 and playing golf all around in the UK and golf 0:31:16.400 --> 0:31:18.600 over there is much more about a match, you know, 0:31:18.680 --> 0:31:23.600 a competition between friends. Rarely do you see a guy 0:31:23.800 --> 0:31:25.960 just go out and golf by himself, you know, it 0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:28.400 just doesn't happen. It's, hey, let's get a game together, 0:31:28.520 --> 0:31:30.520 you know, let's get a couple of guys and we'll 0:31:30.560 --> 0:31:33.360 go play and we'll play match and it's it promotes 0:31:33.400 --> 0:31:37.520 fast play, right because you just pick up and people 0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:40.800 in the US, you know, the US golfer and I 0:31:40.840 --> 0:31:42.080 think a lot of it has to do with a 0:31:42.120 --> 0:31:47.200 handicap system doesn't fully understand that. So if we could, 0:31:47.480 --> 0:31:49.200 you know, if we could, and maybe it's just a model, 0:31:49.240 --> 0:31:51.600 maybe it's not as much about architecture, but trying to 0:31:51.680 --> 0:31:55.880 do things that promote more match play. Yeah, you know, 0:31:56.840 --> 0:32:00.840 play quicker, enjoy the compent a little bit. 0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:02.960 She played a lot of alternative shot over there. 0:32:03.880 --> 0:32:05.520 I didn't. I mean, I knew a lot of guys 0:32:05.560 --> 0:32:08.960 that did, and I played on several occasions. But and 0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:11.320 I played a couple you know events at my club 0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:13.920 that are alternate shot and I love it, and I 0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:15.120 think it's amazing. 0:32:15.880 --> 0:32:18.400 That's like one way to really speed up the game 0:32:18.480 --> 0:32:18.760 at all. 0:32:19.160 --> 0:32:22.160 Somehow, in the US we are fixated on playing our 0:32:22.160 --> 0:32:24.360 own ball the whole time, all the way to the 0:32:24.360 --> 0:32:28.040 hole and putting it in and posting a score on 0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:32.400 our you know, gin handicap and it causes five and 0:32:32.440 --> 0:32:33.400 a half hour rounds. 0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:36.400 Do you think that's because of the PGA Tour. 0:32:37.280 --> 0:32:40.440 I don't know if it's the tour. But in the 0:32:40.520 --> 0:32:43.200 UK the handicap system is much different. Right, You play 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:47.520 three competitive matches, I think, and you get a handicap 0:32:47.560 --> 0:32:49.800 from your club and that's it. That's your index, that's 0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:52.440 your that's your you know, and then so for the 0:32:52.440 --> 0:32:56.480 rest of the year doesn't You don't post scores, So 0:32:56.840 --> 0:32:58.760 if you're playing a match, you just pick up the ball. 0:32:58.840 --> 0:33:01.120 You know, if the guy gets three and you're sitting 0:33:01.160 --> 0:33:06.960 there in four, pick your ball. And you know, I 0:33:06.960 --> 0:33:09.800 don't know if it's the PGA Tour or I guess 0:33:09.800 --> 0:33:12.600 more of the USGA, but the way that we the 0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:16.920 American system of posting the scores for handicap and constantly 0:33:16.960 --> 0:33:20.160 posting every single one, it's counterproductive. 0:33:22.240 --> 0:33:27.880 The handicap system drives me nuts because like it's posting 0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:29.920 a score from one day to the next, Like I 0:33:29.920 --> 0:33:33.160 think it's just stupid because the golf course could be 0:33:33.200 --> 0:33:36.719 completely different in the conditions, Like if you play in 0:33:36.800 --> 0:33:41.520 really tough conditions, like you shoot seventy sixty, play really 0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:44.000 well and you could shoot seventy two the next day, 0:33:44.040 --> 0:33:47.800 and really easy conditions that's not necessarily Like it's so 0:33:48.000 --> 0:33:51.200 skew flawed in so many ways, the handicap system. It's 0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:53.920 one of my I think that is a big problem 0:33:54.120 --> 0:33:56.040 in the game of golf, like one of one of 0:33:56.160 --> 0:33:59.160 like it like you alluded to pace a play, but 0:33:59.240 --> 0:34:03.000 also like the concept of like why you're out there 0:34:03.000 --> 0:34:03.880 playing is. 0:34:03.800 --> 0:34:06.840 Too yeah, And I think that's why we have eighteen 0:34:06.920 --> 0:34:09.839 hundred eighteen hole seventy two hundred dark golf courses. You know, 0:34:09.840 --> 0:34:12.880 on all of our projects, we know that's what our 0:34:12.880 --> 0:34:15.719 client expects, that's what the golfer expects because that's what 0:34:15.840 --> 0:34:19.480 you know, they measured their self against. So you know, 0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:26.880 there's a real I think it's a real lack of 0:34:27.960 --> 0:34:31.560 you know, understanding about the game and the competition side 0:34:31.560 --> 0:34:34.920 of it, about playing a game between you know, two 0:34:35.080 --> 0:34:38.320 four guys or two guys. And you know, if we 0:34:38.400 --> 0:34:41.600 played a competition on a thirteen hole you know, forty 0:34:41.600 --> 0:34:44.120 two hundred dard golf course, we have a great time. 0:34:45.160 --> 0:34:47.200 But if you're out there by yourself and you're trying 0:34:47.200 --> 0:34:50.040 to test your game against you know, what you perceive 0:34:50.080 --> 0:34:55.560 as a modern you know, modern sized golf course and 0:34:55.640 --> 0:34:57.799 you got to post your score, all those things are 0:34:57.840 --> 0:35:01.319 sort of tiling up against know, pay some play and 0:35:01.719 --> 0:35:04.840 match play and competition and all the things that I 0:35:05.160 --> 0:35:09.759 that in the UK you know, really encourages golf. You know, 0:35:09.800 --> 0:35:12.920 it's a it really opened my eyes living in the 0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:16.759 UK to see how the culture of golf is so 0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:22.319 different over there, and uh, you know it, I wish 0:35:22.360 --> 0:35:25.440 we could do more ohopie match plays, you know, match 0:35:25.480 --> 0:35:29.680 clubs and really focus on that style of play. 0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:33.640 Yeah, I agree, Like, I just like talking about this 0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:36.279 like makes me want to play alternate shot the next 0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:38.959 time I play, like in a match, you know, play. 0:35:39.280 --> 0:35:42.240 I think the idea of four people playing two balls, 0:35:42.680 --> 0:35:44.879 you know, is so much faster. It's like you could 0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:47.160 get around and you know, and I know there's some 0:35:47.200 --> 0:35:50.680 clubs over there that are are strictly for uh four 0:35:50.760 --> 0:35:51.520 ball clubs. 0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:53.480 Yeah, and a lot and a lot of them. Or 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:55.719 they'll do it on you know, Saturdays, or you know, 0:35:55.800 --> 0:36:00.160 always before noon or you know, so they'll they'll I'll 0:36:00.200 --> 0:36:03.160 put they'll have very you know, a lot of clubs 0:36:03.160 --> 0:36:06.279 have pretty strict rules about who plays win. So if 0:36:06.320 --> 0:36:10.920 you're going to play, you know, four Americans playing their 0:36:10.960 --> 0:36:13.160 own ball, then you can only play after two on 0:36:13.239 --> 0:36:17.560 a Tuesday, you know. But if you're you know, two 0:36:17.560 --> 0:36:19.960 old boys from down the street, you know, you can 0:36:20.000 --> 0:36:21.880 play in two hours on a Saturday morning. 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:25.120 It's amazing because it's like they're just like, these guys 0:36:25.160 --> 0:36:25.520 get it. 0:36:25.560 --> 0:36:31.759 They can play, I want to. 0:36:30.239 --> 0:36:31.840 And they're going to look for their ball for twenty 0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:33.400 minutes if they hit it into the gorse. 0:36:33.760 --> 0:36:36.080 What were your favorite courses over there? 0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:39.160 You know, I spent most of my time I lived 0:36:39.160 --> 0:36:42.320 in Surrey, so I played, you know, I really played 0:36:42.600 --> 0:36:46.040 the sunny Sunningdale and you know Walton Heath and Saint 0:36:46.080 --> 0:36:48.360 George's Hills. Saint Georgie's Hill is one of my favorites. 0:36:49.400 --> 0:36:52.000 I really I love playing. I played there a lot. 0:36:52.160 --> 0:36:55.600 The client I worked for lived at Saint George's Hills, 0:36:55.600 --> 0:36:57.520 so he had me up there quite a bit to 0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:01.960 play swim Ley Forth, all of those courses. Swinley Force 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:07.160 is absolutely amazing. New Zealand has one that you know, 0:37:07.480 --> 0:37:09.479 not a lot of people know about that's really good. 0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:11.879 And then I played a lot of the English links too, 0:37:11.920 --> 0:37:15.200 which are you know, Royal Saint George's is fantastic. 0:37:16.360 --> 0:37:16.520 Saw. 0:37:17.360 --> 0:37:19.239 I don't know how much time you spent down there, 0:37:19.280 --> 0:37:22.160 but you know, there's a lot of really good courses 0:37:22.400 --> 0:37:25.040 around London an hour drive from London, whether it's you know, 0:37:25.080 --> 0:37:27.280 the Surrey courses are out to the coast. 0:37:27.760 --> 0:37:31.200 Yeah, that's Michael Clayton said that he evolved golf around 0:37:31.200 --> 0:37:33.520 the world. He thinks he'd pick if he had to 0:37:33.680 --> 0:37:34.960 pick one, it would be like. 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:39.960 The London area and there's just so much good golf 0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:42.319 right around there and the heathlands, and I. 0:37:42.239 --> 0:37:46.400 Mean, you talk about important golf, Like I think the 0:37:46.480 --> 0:37:49.880 Heathland courses are probably the most important of all the 0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:51.840 golf courses ever built, because they were the first that 0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:55.400 weren't said that said, golf is okay if it's not 0:37:55.480 --> 0:37:56.080 on the ocean. 0:37:57.040 --> 0:38:00.680 Sure, and you know, and it brought golf to the masses, 0:38:00.760 --> 0:38:03.719 right to a large population center. So suddenly there's like 0:38:03.760 --> 0:38:05.920 one hundred and thirty two golf courses in the county 0:38:06.080 --> 0:38:10.440 sty alone, you know, So it's sort of it brought 0:38:10.640 --> 0:38:14.279 golf closer to the golfer, so you weren't driving out 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:17.279 to the you know, to the links, and you know, 0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:21.000 so it was and some of those golf courses are 0:38:21.080 --> 0:38:21.719 just amazing. 0:38:22.680 --> 0:38:26.680 If you were designing a municipal course, would anything change 0:38:26.719 --> 0:38:29.880 in what you did do there versus say, a golf 0:38:29.920 --> 0:38:32.280 course like Mammoth Doomed. 0:38:34.160 --> 0:38:37.359 Yeah, I mean I think that there's you know, there's 0:38:37.400 --> 0:38:41.640 a time and a place that you can build mammoth dunes, 0:38:41.760 --> 0:38:45.239 and it's on a site like this where we have 0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:48.680 plenty of water, and we have plenty of labor to 0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:53.520 mow the big fairways, and you know, we've we've got 0:38:53.520 --> 0:38:56.600 the perfect scenario to build a really big golf course, 0:38:56.920 --> 0:38:59.840 and you know most municipal courses. Obviously, I don't like that. 0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:04.080 I think given that circumstance, I wouldn't be looking to 0:39:04.120 --> 0:39:07.640 build one hundred dark fairways. You know, I think tight 0:39:07.680 --> 0:39:10.840 and small is okay build a par sixty seven, you know, 0:39:10.840 --> 0:39:13.560 a five thousand yard golf course on a cool piece 0:39:13.600 --> 0:39:16.760 of land and you know wherever in la or something, 0:39:16.800 --> 0:39:23.240 you know, And I think, I think short and fast quick, 0:39:23.320 --> 0:39:25.080 you know, things that move fast, And I would and 0:39:25.160 --> 0:39:27.879 I would do walking only, you know, because I think 0:39:27.920 --> 0:39:31.120 golf carts cause a lot of a lot of issues 0:39:31.520 --> 0:39:32.920 with pace and play as well. 0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:37.440 He makes your job a lot tougher, too much more difficult. 0:39:38.719 --> 0:39:41.600 Yeah, when you're trying to build a course that's walking only, 0:39:41.680 --> 0:39:43.719 like here, for example, you could put it, you know, 0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:45.920 in the back to right next to the green, right 0:39:46.239 --> 0:39:49.359 or or behind it, or you know somewhere where you're 0:39:49.400 --> 0:39:51.800 walking off the green and you are walking right onto 0:39:52.040 --> 0:39:54.479 the next t box and off you go. So pace 0:39:54.520 --> 0:39:58.200 and play is really quick. The second you have cart paths, 0:39:58.200 --> 0:40:00.719 suddenly the cart path needs to be you know, you 0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:02.920 don't want it too close to the green right because 0:40:03.320 --> 0:40:06.279 then your ball might hit it, and so you're moving 0:40:06.320 --> 0:40:08.640 the cart path far away from the green, and then 0:40:08.640 --> 0:40:11.080 you got to know you cross the cart path. So 0:40:11.120 --> 0:40:14.920 if you're walking, suddenly the next tee you know pretty 0:40:14.960 --> 0:40:19.280 much fifty sixty seventy yards away the car. That's caused 0:40:19.280 --> 0:40:22.399 a ton of problems with pace of play. People always say, wow, 0:40:22.760 --> 0:40:24.080 I'm going to go play in a car. I'll play 0:40:24.080 --> 0:40:26.799 super fast. It's like I've played just as fast as you. 0:40:26.960 --> 0:40:29.000 I just won't sit and wait as long as you. 0:40:29.080 --> 0:40:32.239 I'll hit my ball and walk to it. I think 0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:39.880 walking municipal golf courses should try harder to have walking, 0:40:40.000 --> 0:40:40.960 you know, walking only. 0:40:41.880 --> 0:40:45.680 What's crazy is a lot of them don't even have. 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:48.960 A walking right, Yeah, here you go. You get a 0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:50.839 cart with your pizzaimal, I don't want a car. 0:40:52.560 --> 0:40:56.040 I rolled up to Southern Pines in the Pinehurst area. 0:40:56.719 --> 0:40:59.040 It's a cool little core. I talk about a good 0:40:59.120 --> 0:41:01.760 piece of crap. That's a really good piece of ground. 0:41:02.280 --> 0:41:05.760 And there's nobody there because it's bad weather, and except 0:41:05.840 --> 0:41:09.680 that one old lady working in the shop. And I 0:41:09.719 --> 0:41:13.600 walked in and she's like, oh, that'll be fifty six 0:41:13.719 --> 0:41:16.480 dollars or something like that. And she's like, and I 0:41:16.520 --> 0:41:20.360 don't know if I have a cart tea And I 0:41:20.400 --> 0:41:22.279 was like, well, I don't want a cart, I want 0:41:22.280 --> 0:41:26.959 to walk, and she goes well, and she like looked 0:41:27.000 --> 0:41:29.279 at me perplexed because like all of a sudden, like 0:41:29.360 --> 0:41:32.120 it was like she didn't even have like she didn't 0:41:32.200 --> 0:41:34.560 know what the walking right was. And that to me 0:41:34.840 --> 0:41:38.000 was like it almost offended me because it was a 0:41:38.120 --> 0:41:41.280 it's an old school golf course where it's a beautiful 0:41:41.280 --> 0:41:43.960 walk because the tea is right, like just like you 0:41:44.040 --> 0:41:48.279 talked about green tea, green tea, green tea, like, and 0:41:48.960 --> 0:41:50.000 it's a hilly course. 0:41:50.080 --> 0:41:50.839 But so it was. 0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:54.480 It was a tough walk, but you know, very very walkable. 0:41:55.800 --> 0:41:58.840 I think so many courses. A tough walk to me 0:41:59.280 --> 0:42:02.680 is whence between the green and the tea are far apart, 0:42:03.040 --> 0:42:06.840 because I get disengaged. Yeah, I'm instantly thinking about something else. 0:42:06.960 --> 0:42:10.000 Or if I'm walking a hilly golf course, but the 0:42:10.800 --> 0:42:13.680 hilly part is between the tea and the green. It's funny. 0:42:14.080 --> 0:42:18.480 I rarely, rarely, you know, do you feel disengaged. I 0:42:18.480 --> 0:42:21.799 feel a little tired, but you're anxious to get to 0:42:21.840 --> 0:42:24.160 your ball because you're in the game, right and the 0:42:24.239 --> 0:42:26.719 second you put out you want to get back in 0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:27.759 the game as quick as you can. 0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:30.560 I think that's what you hit on. It is like 0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:34.560 they anticipate walking up the hill. When you're walking up 0:42:34.600 --> 0:42:37.880 to see what your next shot is, what your lie is, 0:42:38.200 --> 0:42:40.799 you know, what how close you are to flag, like, 0:42:40.840 --> 0:42:43.120 what your pot looks like. That all of a sudden 0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:46.320 takes the hill out of the equation because you're working 0:42:46.360 --> 0:42:49.200 off of excitement and adrenaline. And I think that's one 0:42:49.200 --> 0:42:51.680 of the beauties of golf, is that anticipation. I think 0:42:51.760 --> 0:42:53.400 carts take away from that too. 0:42:53.360 --> 0:42:56.520 Completely, because suddenly you're driving over to the you know, 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:58.239 you miss half the golf courses. You're on the car 0:42:58.360 --> 0:43:01.080 back the whole time, and then you're you know, circling 0:43:01.120 --> 0:43:03.200 around the back of the green, and then you know 0:43:03.280 --> 0:43:07.839 it's it's yeah that you know. It certainly makes our 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:10.239 job much more difficult. 0:43:10.560 --> 0:43:13.760 M So, if you could get get rid of any 0:43:14.400 --> 0:43:21.720 American uh golf habit outside we'll say, outside of carts, 0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:22.520 what would it be. 0:43:23.920 --> 0:43:26.279 It would be not playing match plate. You know, we'd 0:43:26.280 --> 0:43:29.839 be playing stroke play, everyone putting out their own ball. 0:43:30.080 --> 0:43:32.719 That's the biggest that's the worst habit I think we have, 0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:36.560 and it causes all kinds of problems. It's a domino effect, 0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:42.080 so you know, definitely pace and plays obviously, the pace 0:43:42.120 --> 0:43:43.200 of play is the biggest thing. 0:43:43.480 --> 0:43:46.239 Yeah, I mean it's it's it's pretty sound like a 0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:49.880 broken record, as I sounded, to start to feel like 0:43:49.960 --> 0:43:53.400 I'm a broken record when I do these over and 0:43:53.440 --> 0:43:57.680 over again. So let's let's get into overrated underrated. Okay, 0:43:58.800 --> 0:44:05.840 all right, template hole highly overrated? What about template holes 0:44:05.880 --> 0:44:08.040 within your own architecture group? 0:44:08.960 --> 0:44:10.919 Oh, we don't, I don't have them. We don't, We don't. 0:44:11.560 --> 0:44:15.880 You know, we've I know of you know, a Burritz 0:44:15.960 --> 0:44:19.399 and we built some, but I don't even know if 0:44:19.400 --> 0:44:21.319 we call them that when we're building you maybe we 0:44:21.400 --> 0:44:23.919 call them that after, but we don't have holes. Hey 0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:26.799 remember the third hole you know on that course, let's 0:44:26.800 --> 0:44:29.719 build that again. That never happens because the land is 0:44:29.719 --> 0:44:32.439 so different than you know, you really we really tried 0:44:32.520 --> 0:44:36.239 to respond to the land. And if you're always if 0:44:36.239 --> 0:44:38.560 you have a good site and you don't let the 0:44:38.640 --> 0:44:41.600 land do the talking, then you know you don't need 0:44:41.680 --> 0:44:46.000 a template hole. Right, you're letting the greens there, well, 0:44:46.080 --> 0:44:50.600 there's never been a green built there before like that, 0:44:51.480 --> 0:44:54.359 where it's the site so we maybe and maybe that's 0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:58.960 a you know, maybe that's a scenario where template holes 0:44:59.080 --> 0:45:01.680 are have some merit is on a weak. 0:45:01.560 --> 0:45:06.800 Safe yeah, like a flat site. They're tried and true. 0:45:07.280 --> 0:45:13.000 I think yeah, I mean, I think the core principles 0:45:13.040 --> 0:45:18.680 of golf architecture are exceptionally simple, you know, like what 0:45:18.760 --> 0:45:21.240 builds a good golf course? And I think the temple 0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:26.879 holes were great. I think people have the wrong theory 0:45:26.960 --> 0:45:30.319 on the temple holes, is like they were just principles 0:45:30.360 --> 0:45:34.520 like not this just because one burritz could be completely 0:45:34.560 --> 0:45:38.520 different than another, and one road hole can be completely 0:45:38.520 --> 0:45:41.360 different than another road hole. But the theory is a 0:45:41.560 --> 0:45:46.640 very simple and very strong you know, hey, play close 0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:51.000 to this hazard, gain the advantage, play safe, and you know, 0:45:51.120 --> 0:45:54.880 in essence, a lot of holes are just a copy 0:45:54.920 --> 0:45:55.799 of that strategy. 0:45:57.640 --> 0:46:00.680 Sure, and I get it, but I've also been around 0:46:00.800 --> 0:46:04.920 other architects who cannot think about anything. But you know, 0:46:05.520 --> 0:46:07.640 this is going to be my aupsehole, and then this 0:46:07.680 --> 0:46:10.280 is going to be, you know, the fourth at Pine Valley, 0:46:10.320 --> 0:46:12.040 and then this one is going to be like the 0:46:12.080 --> 0:46:14.640 fifth hole at you know, and and that's all. They 0:46:14.719 --> 0:46:16.880 only refer to a golf hole that they're going to 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:20.279 build referring to some other course, you know, and and 0:46:20.920 --> 0:46:26.280 it's almost like they're, you know, they're a cover band, 0:46:26.880 --> 0:46:31.880 like you know, no original work, like you know. And 0:46:32.040 --> 0:46:34.680 that's how I feel about temple holes is there's someone 0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:37.759 else's idea on a certain site. And yeah, they were 0:46:37.800 --> 0:46:41.600 repeated maybe by you know, C V McDonald and then 0:46:41.640 --> 0:46:44.880 other people, but it's it's someone else's ideas. It's like 0:46:44.920 --> 0:46:46.160 a cover band, you. 0:46:46.120 --> 0:46:52.160 Know, or a wedding band or a wedding band, wedding bands. 0:46:52.280 --> 0:46:53.800 I went and uh. 0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:56.040 So when we got when my wife and I got married, 0:46:56.080 --> 0:46:59.560 we went and you know, saw the wedding bands at 0:46:59.600 --> 0:47:02.560 wedding and so I got the pleasure of going to 0:47:02.760 --> 0:47:06.919 a wedding and I was like sober. I never had 0:47:06.960 --> 0:47:10.840 realized how bad wedding bands are until. 0:47:10.960 --> 0:47:13.680 That moment, but then I realized. I thought about It's like, well, 0:47:13.680 --> 0:47:15.480 if they're really good, they wouldn't be a wedding man, 0:47:15.520 --> 0:47:16.359 they'd be a real band. 0:47:17.360 --> 0:47:20.080 So I mean, I think there's merit. I think there's 0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:27.799 there's merit to certain people doing the template. Like Bill 0:47:27.880 --> 0:47:30.160 Core came on the podcast and talked about how Pete 0:47:30.239 --> 0:47:36.200 Dye changed golf architecture twice, and after Harbortown everybody copied 0:47:36.239 --> 0:47:40.759 that and it was never the same. And after Sawgrass, 0:47:40.760 --> 0:47:43.920 everybody copied that, but they were missing the die sauce 0:47:44.719 --> 0:47:45.319 behind it. 0:47:45.600 --> 0:47:50.200 And I think that he was on site. Yeah, he 0:47:50.320 --> 0:47:52.560 has the same he had. He was the original guy 0:47:52.600 --> 0:47:54.880 with the sauce being on site. 0:47:55.480 --> 0:47:58.120 I think there could be an argument made that Pete 0:47:58.160 --> 0:48:03.800 Dye is like the most important architect and golf history 0:48:04.360 --> 0:48:07.520 outside of maybe like old Tom Morris. 0:48:07.880 --> 0:48:14.839 It's you know, his his focus. And you know, I 0:48:14.880 --> 0:48:17.040 haven't been around him, so I'm only speaking from the 0:48:17.080 --> 0:48:19.120 stories I've heard from other guys. But he was on 0:48:19.200 --> 0:48:21.480 site all the time. He wasn't afraid to spend hundreds 0:48:21.480 --> 0:48:24.319 of days during construction on a project and get his 0:48:24.400 --> 0:48:28.520 hands dirty in that, you know, that is I think, 0:48:28.960 --> 0:48:32.719 you know, there's so many architects who are as talented 0:48:32.760 --> 0:48:37.439 as you know, the group I've spoken about over and over, 0:48:38.120 --> 0:48:40.640 but they just don't They just they for whatever reason, 0:48:40.680 --> 0:48:42.920 they just aren't prepared to be there as much as 0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:46.360 they should be, and their products kind of suffers from that. 0:48:47.080 --> 0:48:49.600 And then I mean the idea of not being on 0:48:49.760 --> 0:48:53.600 site a lot is like yeah, I mean like it's 0:48:53.680 --> 0:48:57.000 kind of crazy that it even was like a. 0:48:57.000 --> 0:48:59.640 Real thing like that, and it still isn't it probably 0:48:59.680 --> 0:49:01.520 will be for a long time where you know, there's 0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:04.240 still gonna be a lot of guys drawing grading plans 0:49:04.280 --> 0:49:06.480 on in their you know, in their office and handing 0:49:06.520 --> 0:49:08.480 them off to contractors. 0:49:08.840 --> 0:49:12.960 Well, it goes against like running a business because like 0:49:13.080 --> 0:49:15.760 when you're trying to run a business, you're always trying 0:49:15.760 --> 0:49:18.400 to scale, like how can we do things more efficiently, 0:49:18.480 --> 0:49:22.680 faster and take on more clients. But I think with architecture, 0:49:22.760 --> 0:49:27.200 you're in an industry where it's more art base like 0:49:27.200 --> 0:49:30.359 where you have to like you have to do the 0:49:30.400 --> 0:49:34.560 world like you can't look at it as like we're 0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:36.560 going to get as efficient so we can take on 0:49:36.640 --> 0:49:39.040 as many jobs as possible. Like there's I think a 0:49:39.120 --> 0:49:42.480 clear I just don't think it's a You can't have 0:49:42.600 --> 0:49:46.200 a McDonald's version of golf course architects. 0:49:47.080 --> 0:49:52.120 Yeah, absolutely not, not not successfully, you know, not maybe 0:49:52.160 --> 0:49:54.520 in two thousand and five when they were building five 0:49:54.600 --> 0:49:56.719 hundred golf courses the year in the US, you know 0:49:56.920 --> 0:49:59.920 that that model might have worked at least from a 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:02.640 business model, but it wasn't producing top one hundred golf 0:50:02.680 --> 0:50:03.560 courses in the world. 0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:08.480 You know, so you've mentioned the rankings a number of times, 0:50:08.560 --> 0:50:12.640 like do you feel as an as you know, an architect, 0:50:13.320 --> 0:50:16.840 that that is how your work, like how you judge 0:50:16.840 --> 0:50:18.360 your work to looking back, No. 0:50:18.520 --> 0:50:20.640 I guess you know, when I say top one hundred, 0:50:20.719 --> 0:50:23.120 I mean probably my own top one hundred. I don't 0:50:23.120 --> 0:50:26.680 necessarily mean Joe pass Off's top one hundred, you know, 0:50:26.800 --> 0:50:32.240 Golf magazine or you know, Golf Digests or anyone else's. 0:50:32.000 --> 0:50:34.879 It does make you feel good when you look at 0:50:35.080 --> 0:50:37.279 you know, when you build something like amil Sands and 0:50:37.320 --> 0:50:40.160 it you know it's super high in the rankings, right 0:50:40.200 --> 0:50:42.239 when that makes you feel good, of course, And when 0:50:42.239 --> 0:50:45.279 they're not. Yeah, And that's the funny thing. I think 0:50:45.320 --> 0:50:49.600 we all love them when we're in them. But the 0:50:49.640 --> 0:50:52.080 second you build a golf course like Taylor is a 0:50:52.080 --> 0:50:54.440 good example, I think it's amazing, but it's not in there, 0:50:54.480 --> 0:50:56.960 so then it pass me off. So you know, you're 0:50:57.400 --> 0:51:05.040 you're the rankings are by nature, you know, they're it's 0:51:05.040 --> 0:51:09.719 completely subjective, right, like sure, there's you could probably name 0:51:09.840 --> 0:51:12.920 you know, you could probably pick fifty golf courses that 0:51:13.680 --> 0:51:17.920 are amazing and not even rank them one or two, 0:51:18.000 --> 0:51:20.840 you know, top my top fifty and just here's my 0:51:20.920 --> 0:51:23.719 fifty top golf courses. And I think that would probably 0:51:23.760 --> 0:51:26.200 be a much better way to do it, you know, 0:51:26.280 --> 0:51:29.960 in groupings rather than one two, you know, because it's 0:51:30.000 --> 0:51:32.440 so easy to look at seventy three and say seventy 0:51:32.440 --> 0:51:34.319 three is way better than fifty two. You know, the 0:51:34.360 --> 0:51:35.560 fifty two ranked one. 0:51:35.640 --> 0:51:39.640 Well that's it. I'm in the same about like the 0:51:39.680 --> 0:51:43.600 idea of putting a number next, Like there's like a 0:51:43.680 --> 0:51:49.120 clear tiers, you know, and it's like would you rather play? Like? 0:51:49.239 --> 0:51:50.759 And then I start to think about it. It's like, 0:51:51.160 --> 0:51:54.520 you know what's better this golf course or this golf course. 0:51:54.560 --> 0:51:56.920 It's like, well, they're both great, and it's like I, 0:51:57.440 --> 0:51:59.400 you know, like which one would I rather play on 0:51:59.440 --> 0:52:01.839 a date? Well, I don't know, it depends on what 0:52:01.880 --> 0:52:02.560 I'm looking for. 0:52:02.719 --> 0:52:05.319 Imagine if someone did that, someone else did that with 0:52:05.440 --> 0:52:07.560 a different form of art, like what are your top 0:52:07.719 --> 0:52:10.799 what's the number one sculpture in the world. I mean, 0:52:10.960 --> 0:52:13.680 that makes no sense, right, It's it's our it's it's 0:52:13.680 --> 0:52:15.879 from your point of view. It's how you played that day, 0:52:15.920 --> 0:52:18.399 it's how the weather was, it's how nice the kid 0:52:18.440 --> 0:52:20.880 at the golf shop. Was it's how good your caddy was? 0:52:21.400 --> 0:52:23.759 You know, So ranking a golf course, I would say, 0:52:23.840 --> 0:52:26.520 is like ranking sculptures. It's it's you know, it doesn't 0:52:26.560 --> 0:52:29.600 it doesn't really mean that much, unless, of course, you know, 0:52:29.640 --> 0:52:31.480 one of our courses is ranked highly, and then it's 0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:32.360 super important. 0:52:32.400 --> 0:52:35.840 If you're the number one sculptor, then of course I 0:52:36.000 --> 0:52:39.080 want to rank. It's uh, what would you what do 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:40.400 you think should. 0:52:40.200 --> 0:52:43.200 Go into evaluating a golf course? 0:52:46.680 --> 0:52:50.160 You know, what should go or what does go? What 0:52:50.239 --> 0:52:51.960 should go? You know, as you should be able to 0:52:52.000 --> 0:52:55.520 show up and as if you're gonna if you're if 0:52:55.560 --> 0:52:58.040 you are going to do you know, be a rank 0:52:58.120 --> 0:52:59.960 or if you're saying, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna rank 0:53:00.040 --> 0:53:04.719 the golf course architecturally, and then you need to do 0:53:04.760 --> 0:53:06.600 it in a bubble. You know, you need to not 0:53:06.920 --> 0:53:08.680 think about the guy at the pro shop or the 0:53:08.719 --> 0:53:11.560 traffic on the way there, or you know, the fact 0:53:11.600 --> 0:53:13.640 that it was cold that day, or that your caddy 0:53:13.760 --> 0:53:16.279 was the you know, not the best. 0:53:16.320 --> 0:53:21.280 Because the look drives them up. Notts is how you played, how. 0:53:21.120 --> 0:53:23.600 You play it. If I played good, it's great, of course, 0:53:23.719 --> 0:53:26.880 is awesome. If I can't make a pass. You know, 0:53:27.200 --> 0:53:30.040 it's no where the greens are horrible, and it's you know, 0:53:30.239 --> 0:53:34.200 it's subjective, you know, and I don't think that you 0:53:34.280 --> 0:53:37.719 can a lot of people and aren't in in the 0:53:38.000 --> 0:53:41.600 you know, modern day architects. You know, I'd walked it. 0:53:41.640 --> 0:53:43.600 I love to walk the golf course, and you know, 0:53:43.640 --> 0:53:45.400 I really got a feel for it. I never played it, 0:53:45.440 --> 0:53:50.000 but I walked it. That always sort of I always 0:53:50.040 --> 0:53:52.799 think that's a cop out. You know, you didn't play it, 0:53:52.960 --> 0:53:55.839 but you're going to evaluate it. Even though you never 0:53:55.920 --> 0:53:58.440 swung a golf club on it. You walked around it. 0:53:59.640 --> 0:54:02.839 You didn't fully understand the golf course, but you're going 0:54:02.920 --> 0:54:04.480 to tell me that you have an opinion on it 0:54:04.520 --> 0:54:07.640 because you walked around. I find that really difficult, and 0:54:07.640 --> 0:54:10.840 that's a that's a big thing in today's you know, 0:54:10.960 --> 0:54:13.520 young kids. Well I went out and walked it. Okay, 0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:16.359 maybe that's great if you couldn't play it, but played 0:54:16.360 --> 0:54:17.759 the golf course and evaluate it. 0:54:18.480 --> 0:54:21.000 I think I understand the golf course more when I 0:54:21.080 --> 0:54:22.520 walk it than when I play it. 0:54:22.880 --> 0:54:27.440 Might can you give an opinion on, you know, architecturally, 0:54:27.480 --> 0:54:28.040 how it played. 0:54:28.880 --> 0:54:31.880 I like to so I walk with like a wedge, 0:54:32.000 --> 0:54:33.799 a seven iron, a putter. 0:54:33.760 --> 0:54:37.000 So you're playing the all. I don't think you have 0:54:37.080 --> 0:54:39.759 to play it for a score. I think you have 0:54:39.840 --> 0:54:41.680 to hit shots on it, and you have to you know, 0:54:41.760 --> 0:54:43.919 feel the grass and you have to you know, see 0:54:43.920 --> 0:54:46.160 what happens when it balls back towards the green. 0:54:46.480 --> 0:54:50.440 I think, like around the greens is where hitting shots 0:54:50.480 --> 0:54:53.120 and and but like from tee to green, I pretty 0:54:53.200 --> 0:54:54.520 much know where I'm going to hit it. And I 0:54:54.520 --> 0:54:56.600 can stand on a team look at this and look 0:54:56.640 --> 0:54:59.200 at a shot and be like, oh this is this 0:54:59.280 --> 0:55:02.560 is a good shot, you know. But I think, like 0:55:03.239 --> 0:55:06.440 to your point, like to fully grasp it, you need 0:55:06.480 --> 0:55:08.959 to play. I also don't really think you can judge 0:55:08.960 --> 0:55:10.640 a golf course one time around. 0:55:11.040 --> 0:55:15.080 I agree, like, I know if it's bad, I know 0:55:15.120 --> 0:55:16.759 if I play it once and I end up saying, 0:55:16.800 --> 0:55:19.360 you know, like I can usually say, yeah, I'm not 0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:22.560 ever coming back here. If it's you know, a good 0:55:22.600 --> 0:55:26.399 golf course, like something like Fine Valley, you know, you're 0:55:26.440 --> 0:55:28.879 in awe of it the first time you play it, 0:55:28.960 --> 0:55:30.880 you know, and you need to play it again. Cypru's 0:55:30.920 --> 0:55:32.560 kind of the same thing. The old course sort of 0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:37.040 the same thing. You know, sometimes when when the personality 0:55:37.040 --> 0:55:38.960 of the golf course is so big, I really think 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:41.840 you kind of jaded, you know, and you have to 0:55:41.880 --> 0:55:44.480 almost play it again to really understand it. 0:55:44.480 --> 0:55:48.080 It's funny because like Mammoth is a good example of 0:55:48.120 --> 0:55:50.960 like I've played it now three times, but I've walked 0:55:51.000 --> 0:55:54.480 it probably five or six other times, and I've understood 0:55:54.480 --> 0:55:57.960 it more and more and I've appreciated aspects of it 0:55:58.000 --> 0:56:00.600 more and more every time I played it. And like, 0:56:01.080 --> 0:56:04.680 so it's funny because like my opinion after one round 0:56:04.719 --> 0:56:07.920 would have been completely different it is now after playing 0:56:08.000 --> 0:56:10.480 a bunch of times, Like I just understand the golf 0:56:10.520 --> 0:56:14.520 course more, like you know, like it's a weird golf 0:56:14.560 --> 0:56:17.480 course in the sense like every hole I feel like 0:56:17.520 --> 0:56:21.080 out there, every hole I should be like pushing the 0:56:21.239 --> 0:56:24.640 envelope trying to make a verdict versus so many holes. 0:56:25.280 --> 0:56:28.640 I've been conditioned in my life to like, you know, 0:56:28.760 --> 0:56:33.680 like play conservative, like play and like don't just go 0:56:33.760 --> 0:56:37.200 after it all round long, like which is I But 0:56:37.280 --> 0:56:41.719 there are shots out there where like today I was like, wow, 0:56:41.760 --> 0:56:45.640 I really got to be careful here. But at the 0:56:45.680 --> 0:56:48.480 same time, it's a different challenge in the sense of 0:56:48.560 --> 0:56:53.040 like prs are always very attainable for a good player. 0:56:54.000 --> 0:56:56.160 It's like, you know, like you can if you try 0:56:56.200 --> 0:56:59.200 and make a par, you're never going to get yourself 0:56:59.400 --> 0:57:03.520 really like you can make eighteen pars. It's where you 0:57:03.560 --> 0:57:05.240 get in troubles when you push for the birdie. 0:57:05.719 --> 0:57:09.400 And that's what David and I's real philosophy was here. 0:57:10.680 --> 0:57:14.000 Let's forget about defend par. Let's forget about let's let's 0:57:14.080 --> 0:57:18.080 give par away. Let's defend birdie. You know, let's really 0:57:18.160 --> 0:57:21.040 try to defend a good player from getting a birdie, 0:57:21.120 --> 0:57:24.200 because that's really what we want. If you try to 0:57:24.240 --> 0:57:27.640 defend par, then the average guy he's getting bowe. You're 0:57:27.640 --> 0:57:29.400 a double boge, right. 0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:31.360 And that's like why I think the brilliant, like I 0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:35.800 honestly think that like and at like a fifteen handicaps 0:57:35.840 --> 0:57:39.600 are universally going to just like absolutely love this place 0:57:39.600 --> 0:57:42.000 because it's going to be the first golf course that 0:57:42.160 --> 0:57:45.360 just doesn't beat them over their head all around long, you. 0:57:45.320 --> 0:57:47.680 Know, and a lot like gamble sands, I think the 0:57:47.920 --> 0:57:51.000 good players, like you said, a good player is going 0:57:51.080 --> 0:57:55.320 to think that they can, you know, score their very 0:57:55.320 --> 0:57:58.560 best score they've ever scored at mammothudes because they they 0:57:59.120 --> 0:58:02.480 see that I attainable. Yeah, But once you start pressing 0:58:02.520 --> 0:58:05.160 on the gas and you start thinking, okay, I'm going 0:58:05.200 --> 0:58:06.760 to get you know, I got a birdie there, and 0:58:06.760 --> 0:58:08.440 then I can get another brand, and then you know, 0:58:08.520 --> 0:58:11.040 you if it's not, you know, no one's going to 0:58:11.120 --> 0:58:12.760 go out there and get ten birdies. Right. 0:58:12.840 --> 0:58:15.800 Making birdies is hard any golf course anywhere. 0:58:15.880 --> 0:58:18.800 Right, if it was a flat field three hundred yards long, 0:58:18.880 --> 0:58:20.600 birdies are still hard. They still up. 0:58:20.920 --> 0:58:24.320 It's like you still have to hit exceptional shots. Yeah. 0:58:24.400 --> 0:58:27.800 Like I tried to drive the tenth green a short 0:58:27.840 --> 0:58:30.680 part four today and I like lost ball. Yeah, and 0:58:30.680 --> 0:58:33.000 that was like the killer on my route. It's like 0:58:33.040 --> 0:58:34.800 I would have shot a really good score if I 0:58:34.880 --> 0:58:36.160 had lost ball. 0:58:36.520 --> 0:58:36.720 Yeah. 0:58:36.800 --> 0:58:38.440 That's like that's where I pushed the gas. 0:58:38.480 --> 0:58:41.160 There's some punishment, there's some edges. And I think that 0:58:41.360 --> 0:58:44.880 is if I if I could bottle up architecture, and 0:58:45.040 --> 0:58:48.520 you know what I think really good architecture is. I 0:58:48.560 --> 0:58:52.640 think it's bringing the good player, the high handicap or 0:58:52.680 --> 0:58:55.480 the low handicap player and the high handicap player together 0:58:55.720 --> 0:58:58.200 as close as you can get them. So, you know, 0:58:58.320 --> 0:59:01.960 trying to make it as easy again. The handicap system 0:59:02.040 --> 0:59:05.360 is set up for the good player in the US 0:59:05.480 --> 0:59:11.840 right because it's all about your potential, and my potential 0:59:11.880 --> 0:59:15.880 as an eight handicap is probably you know, an eighty. 0:59:16.160 --> 0:59:19.960 My potential is that and I you know, whereas normally 0:59:20.000 --> 0:59:23.000 I'll probably get a ninety and a good player. If 0:59:23.040 --> 0:59:26.680 you're a single digit handicap, a one handicap, you're gonna 0:59:26.680 --> 0:59:28.040 shoot around par most of the time. 0:59:28.360 --> 0:59:31.360 Well, so this is the interesting thing. It's like for 0:59:31.680 --> 0:59:36.320 the American system of stroke play, it's very advantageous if 0:59:36.320 --> 0:59:39.200 you're playing net stroke play. I think it's very advantageous 0:59:39.200 --> 0:59:42.560 to be a low handicap. But if you take the 0:59:42.640 --> 0:59:46.560 system and we play match play, the real low handicaps 0:59:46.560 --> 0:59:51.240 had a huge disadvantage because like their propeessie to not 0:59:51.360 --> 0:59:55.560 make big numbers is that's like your advantage is like 0:59:55.920 --> 0:59:57.840 you know, like fifteen is going to make a seven 0:59:57.960 --> 0:59:59.440 or an eight, But in nash play. 0:59:59.360 --> 1:00:00.360 You only lose one. 1:00:00.600 --> 1:00:02.800 Yeah, that's why match play is a better system. It is. 1:00:02.840 --> 1:00:05.320 I agree hundred percent. I'm I'm a you know, I'm 1:00:05.320 --> 1:00:08.360 a I think I'm an eight handicap right now, but 1:00:08.840 --> 1:00:11.920 I could get you know, a snowman or a verdie 1:00:11.960 --> 1:00:15.000 on any single hole, right, and you're probably you're you're 1:00:15.040 --> 1:00:17.120 never gonna get a snowman. But it's just as hard 1:00:17.160 --> 1:00:19.600 for you to verty it as for me. So match 1:00:19.640 --> 1:00:22.439 play is way better and stroke play you'll probably beat 1:00:22.480 --> 1:00:24.680 me every time, even net, because there's gonna be two 1:00:24.760 --> 1:00:26.680 or three snowman. You know, if I played to my 1:00:26.880 --> 1:00:29.600 very best potential, then we're even mm hm, because you're 1:00:29.600 --> 1:00:33.200 gonna pay your potential almost every day. This is it's 1:00:33.240 --> 1:00:36.240 a you know, it's flawed for the stroke play. So 1:00:37.080 --> 1:00:40.800 any type of architecture that can bring those two players 1:00:40.840 --> 1:00:43.800 together more so that it's more evenly matched. I think 1:00:43.840 --> 1:00:45.440 it's you know, I think that's a winner. 1:00:45.520 --> 1:00:50.040 That's that's a great architecture. And match play. Yeah, that's 1:00:50.040 --> 1:00:54.840 that's the recipe, because match play brings people closer. It's 1:00:53.640 --> 1:01:00.920 a it's funny, it's it's the archite actually bringing the 1:01:01.240 --> 1:01:03.880 thing of bringing everybody closer, I think is like the 1:01:04.000 --> 1:01:08.480 nail on the head. Yeah, because like it you don't 1:01:08.680 --> 1:01:11.440 like That's the way I feel when I play some 1:01:11.520 --> 1:01:14.040 of these golf courses that I like to rip on 1:01:14.240 --> 1:01:19.240 is like it's so boring for me and like you 1:01:19.280 --> 1:01:22.800 watch a tour like it's just thoughtless, and then you like, 1:01:22.960 --> 1:01:27.120 my dad's a seventeen handicap and he played. It's just 1:01:27.320 --> 1:01:30.800 it's miserable for me to play with him because of 1:01:30.920 --> 1:01:33.600 how hard it is for him. And I'm spending my 1:01:33.680 --> 1:01:36.919 whole day looking for golf balls or watching him drop 1:01:37.000 --> 1:01:40.840 golf balls, like and that is I mean, so is 1:01:40.840 --> 1:01:44.600 it possible to build a really good golf course without width? 1:01:46.320 --> 1:01:51.840 I think the strategy becomes much more subtle. Right, the 1:01:51.840 --> 1:01:56.360 greens are smaller, so that the strategy is much subtler. 1:01:56.880 --> 1:02:00.080 And I think, you know, the narrower it gets, the 1:02:00.080 --> 1:02:03.960 the more the strategy is apparent to a really good golfer, 1:02:04.160 --> 1:02:07.800 but maybe less apparent to you know, a higher handicap golfer, 1:02:07.800 --> 1:02:10.040 because they're just trying to hit the fair way. They're 1:02:10.080 --> 1:02:12.520 not picking you know, which side, or I need to 1:02:12.520 --> 1:02:14.720 come in from here. Well, the fairy is only you know, 1:02:14.800 --> 1:02:18.160 eighteen hours wide. I'm just trying to not just trying 1:02:18.160 --> 1:02:21.960 to make the grass, you know. So I think they can, 1:02:22.160 --> 1:02:25.680 it can be a really great golf course, but the strategy, 1:02:25.720 --> 1:02:28.000 you know, the strategy is much more so so, so 1:02:28.080 --> 1:02:31.960 I don't think everyone gets to enjoy a high handicapper 1:02:32.040 --> 1:02:36.400 rarely gets to enjoy the the you know, the strategy 1:02:36.840 --> 1:02:40.200 of a narrow golf course. 1:02:42.200 --> 1:02:44.120 All right, Casey, thanks for coming on. 1:02:44.200 --> 1:02:46.080 It's been a pleasure, Yeah, my pleasure. 1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:48.920 Andy. Yeah, it would be excited to see you guys 1:02:49.000 --> 1:02:52.000 next work. I know you got a couple overseas projects, 1:02:52.000 --> 1:02:54.919 but hopefully sooner. In the America is another one. 1:02:55.120 --> 1:02:58.280 Yeah, and hopefully they're all in sand Yeah. 1:02:58.640 --> 1:02:59.360 Thanks. 1:03:00.000 --> 1:03:02.320 We've been listening to the fried Egg podcast. 1:03:02.760 --> 1:03:04.320 We do the digging for you.