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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today,

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Speaker 1: I am joined by Casey Crombull, one of David McLay

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Speaker 1: kids lead associates. If you haven't yet, please rate and

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Speaker 1: review the podcast in iTunes and without further ado, here's Casey.

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Speaker 1: I miss the green for example, I'm already upset.

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Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 3: And when I find my ball in a brid Egg

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Speaker 3: Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg,

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Speaker 3: Bride Egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off the

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Speaker 3: golf course.

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Speaker 2: What do you think the biggest smith in golf architecture is?

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Speaker 3: I would say that, you know, our predecessors were somehow

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Speaker 3: much more talented than the current group of architects.

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Speaker 2: And by predecessors you made which any architects choose them

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Speaker 2: the Golden Age architects.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a myth that they were so incredibly

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Speaker 3: amazing that we should go back and do everything that

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Speaker 3: they were doing. And I stin't think that's true. Most

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Speaker 3: industries evolve. But do you think that the best courses

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Speaker 3: in the world are the old courses? Like the say

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Speaker 3: some rankings which shall I would say, for the most part,

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Speaker 3: because they got the very best sites and they had

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Speaker 3: no constraints. They had no environmental constraints, they had no

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Speaker 3: no one over their shoulder, they had no housing projects.

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Speaker 3: So they got the very best sites of the world,

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Speaker 3: like Cypher's Point for example, and that's you know that

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Speaker 3: it shows because they're some of the greatest golf courses.

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Speaker 3: But if you gave you know, any I would say,

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Speaker 3: you know, any of my the group of architects in

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Speaker 3: our group, I would say, David Kidd, Tom Doak Gill

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Speaker 3: hands you give any of these guys that site, I

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Speaker 3: would argue that they would do a better dough.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting because a lot of times people will say, well,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I'd come up with this, but

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Speaker 2: not necessarily they wouldn't come up with that, but they

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Speaker 2: would come up with me something differently.

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Speaker 3: And I agree they'd come up with a better eighteenth

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Speaker 3: toll for Cyprist point. They come up with a better

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Speaker 3: first toal for Cyclist Point.

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Speaker 2: I think the eighteenth hole at a golf course is overrated.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's certainly a lot of golf courses, especially in

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Speaker 3: the British Isles, where you're playing back Inland from the

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Speaker 3: eighteenth hole, and it's sort of the crescendo of the

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Speaker 3: of the tale that you you know, you just it

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Speaker 3: kind of lets you down and gets you back home.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I would say that, you know, cru

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Speaker 3: eighteen is certainly a letdown.

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Speaker 2: I think about the great I think great golf courses

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Speaker 2: mirror great songs, and I don't know any great song

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Speaker 2: that ends with the loudest part of the song. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So I think where that crescendo is, like it is

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Speaker 2: hidden fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, maybe even seventeen, but then eighteen,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's it. But different styles, it's so key.

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Speaker 3: Variety, Yeah, I mean, I built a golf course in

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Speaker 3: Nicaragua in the eighteenth hole was a par three right

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Speaker 3: out on the beach, and it's fantastic, you know, I

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Speaker 3: don't I don't know that that's so it would have

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Speaker 3: been better if it was the seventeenth hole, you know, particularly,

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Speaker 3: So I think, you know, variety is probably the biggest

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Speaker 3: and most important game that not won shoe fits every

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Speaker 3: but you know, there's every golf course is different, and

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Speaker 3: the good ones are amazing for their own merits and

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Speaker 3: they're being you know, very different merits for each each

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Speaker 3: amazing course that you loved.

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Speaker 2: How'd you get into golf course architecture?

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Speaker 3: I was in college and just started.

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Speaker 2: It.

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Speaker 3: Started working on a local golf course construction project because

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Speaker 3: I wanted to stay in northern Arizona, which is where

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Speaker 3: I went to school for the summer. So my friend was,

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Speaker 3: you know, helping build a golf course down the street

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Speaker 3: called Forest Highlands and for Tom Wishoff, and and you know,

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Speaker 3: I went out, there's a laborer with a shovel in

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Speaker 3: my hand, and I putted that for probably five months maybe,

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Speaker 3: and then went away to Mexico for after I graduated

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Speaker 3: to do some some studying in Spanish and spend a

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Speaker 3: year there going to school, and came back and didn't

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Speaker 3: really have a plan, so I you know, went back

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Speaker 3: to this construction company. I was like, hey, you know,

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Speaker 3: that was pretty fun. Let's you know, I'll call them

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Speaker 3: and see if I can get a job with them.

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Speaker 3: So that was a company called Wadsworth, and they put

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Speaker 3: me to work right away. They were busy, as you know,

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Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety nine, things were cranking, so I spent

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Speaker 3: I wasn't a real you know, enthusiast about architecture at

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Speaker 3: that time. I just liked being out in the woods

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Speaker 3: and you know, being out on construction projects. And so

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Speaker 3: quickly with Wadsworth, within a couple of years, I was

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Speaker 3: a project manager, running you know, big projects for some

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Speaker 3: of the best architects in the world. So I was

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Speaker 3: working with Fazzio and Nicholas and you know, all these guys.

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Speaker 3: And I slowly got more and more into architecture and

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Speaker 3: spent more and more time with these architects as I

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Speaker 3: kind of got more and more and more into the

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Speaker 3: high profile, you know projects, and I really started falling

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Speaker 3: in love with the process. And I didn't know anything

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Speaker 3: about the golden Age of architecture. I didn't know anything

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Speaker 3: about you know, these old golf courses that were built

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Speaker 3: in the twenties. But I loved being part of the

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Speaker 3: the you know, the process of taking bare land and

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Speaker 3: creating these amazing things. I felt. What I kept finding

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Speaker 3: out was that these architects just weren't there. They weren't

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Speaker 3: present the draw seat of plans and give them to

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Speaker 3: the contractor we you know, do our best to build

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Speaker 3: what they drew, not what fit in the land, not

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Speaker 3: what you know, not what should have been built, not

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Speaker 3: something amazing, something that was on a piece of paper,

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Speaker 3: and I really found it kind of boring.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I tried to improvise as much as I could in

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Speaker 3: building what these architects had drawn, but then they'd come

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Speaker 3: out and they'd you know, hey, this was you know,

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Speaker 3: this bump was supposed to be two inches higher. You know,

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Speaker 3: there was always they were always kind of trying to

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Speaker 3: stifle the imagination of me and the team I was

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Speaker 3: working with. So eventually I met David on when we

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Speaker 3: were building Tethero. I went to Oregon to build it

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Speaker 3: as the contractor and he was the architect. So David

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Speaker 3: was the first guy I met that was an improviser.

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Speaker 3: You know, the plans we basically threw out the window,

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Speaker 3: they didn't mean anything. You know, we had a rough routing,

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Speaker 3: We stuck to that routing, and basically him and I,

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Speaker 3: he didn't have an associate or anybody involved. He moved

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Speaker 3: to bed and suddenly I realized that there's a guy that,

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Speaker 3: you know, an architect that's so willing to spend his

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Speaker 3: time on the site that it you know, it made

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Speaker 3: everybody on the whole project much more enthused, and he

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Speaker 3: wanted us to use our imagination and builds. I'll try it,

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Speaker 3: build it, you know, build whatever you want. Let's I'll

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Speaker 3: come back and look at it, and then we tweak it,

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Speaker 3: you know. So he kind of took me under his

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Speaker 3: wing and really started to kind of hone my craft

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Speaker 3: of architecture. And I worked for you know, I worked

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Speaker 3: for probably twenty different architects as a contractor, so I

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Speaker 3: saw all different manners and ways. But what I never

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Speaker 3: saw was someone that was on site all the time.

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Speaker 3: And he was there all the time. He moved to org.

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Speaker 2: Outside of just the imagination and being able to improvise.

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Speaker 2: What was the kind of the biggest aha moment that

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Speaker 2: you had early on with David?

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Speaker 3: But I think it was just, you know, when he

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Speaker 3: it was very simple. It was just what I said

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Speaker 3: when he said to me, yeah, I just moved here

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Speaker 3: with my family and it was day one of the

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Speaker 3: project and rented the house and moved there. And I

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Speaker 3: was like, what do you mean. He's like, well, I

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Speaker 3: just moved here. We're going to fill this together. I

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Speaker 3: was like, no, no, no, I'm the contractor. He goes, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I'm the architect and I'm going to be here

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Speaker 3: more or less every day, and he was there a lot.

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Speaker 3: You know, he still was he had another project in

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Speaker 3: the UK, so he was going back and forth from

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Speaker 3: the UK quite a bit. But him and I, you know,

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Speaker 3: that was the first aha moment, and then from then

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Speaker 3: on it was just you know, it was fun, it

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Speaker 3: was exciting. It was you know, it was very different

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Speaker 3: from what I had seen in the past, the ten

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Speaker 3: years previous to that.

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Speaker 2: They say, it's so much more inclusive as opposed to

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Speaker 2: like you probably felt like almost detached.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely they were you know, when I was the contractor,

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Speaker 3: the architect was almost sort of the enemy, like you

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Speaker 3: were waiting for them to show up because they're just

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Speaker 3: going to change everything that you already did, or you know,

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Speaker 3: they're going to blow in, give a bunch of comments

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Speaker 3: and blow out of town and that's it. And it was,

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Speaker 3: you know, it was everyone got inspired by David being

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Speaker 3: on site. My whole team, guys I worked with, you

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Speaker 3: know for ten years that had never seen that kind

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Speaker 3: of thing, and suddenly we were, you know, having beers

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Speaker 3: after work and with the architect and he's sitting on

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Speaker 3: the tailgate with us, and you know, it was really

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Speaker 3: really inspiring, and it really that That moment was when

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Speaker 3: I said, this is awesome. I've never wanted to be

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Speaker 3: a golf course architect until I met David. So I'm like,

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Speaker 3: that's what I want to do. I want to I

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Speaker 3: want to build a golf course, but I also want

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Speaker 3: to design it. You know. That's where I am today.

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Speaker 2: That's it's interesting because you were a golf course builder.

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Speaker 2: You know, you built golf courses, but becoming you know,

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Speaker 2: part of the team that designed it. That's a seismic shift.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's will contractors, you know, the design

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Speaker 2: contract model. Do you think do you foresee that being

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Speaker 2: a relevant model ten years from now?

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Speaker 3: Only for some I don't think that most people in

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Speaker 3: our industry are willing to sacrifice their lifestyle to be

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Speaker 3: on a golf course all the time. I mean our team,

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Speaker 3: I was here at sand Valley virtually every day of construction.

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Speaker 3: David was here in probably half the time. Nick, our

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Speaker 3: other associate, he moved to la to build a golf

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Speaker 3: course rolling Hills. He spent two years there away from

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Speaker 3: his family. You know, I've moved around with my family

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Speaker 3: a lot. It takes a lot of you know, a

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Speaker 3: lot of time and energy to really do the design, build,

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Speaker 3: you know thing, and so you know, I don't I

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Speaker 3: don't force see that it's going to be a huge

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Speaker 3: thing for our industry because I don't. I don't. I

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Speaker 3: don't know that people are as committed as they should

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Speaker 3: as they need to be for that model. Right.

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Speaker 2: I was down at Trinity Forests and all these volunteers

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Speaker 2: were and I'd walk and they need stop and talk,

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Speaker 2: and then what do you think about the golf course?

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Speaker 2: I'd be like, Oh, it's great. I'd be really, you know,

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Speaker 2: like this state of shock because it's so much different

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Speaker 2: than everything else in Dallas. And the analogy I started

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Speaker 2: to use was like, well, like most of your courses

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Speaker 2: around here are you know, the architect grew up plans,

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Speaker 2: hand them over to contractor who built them out, Like

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Speaker 2: they're kind of like a like a subdivision house, and

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Speaker 2: this is like a hand crafted house. You know that

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Speaker 2: somebody was here, that architect was on site all a

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Speaker 2: lot of the time, but everything, every little detail was

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Speaker 2: thought out. And I felt like that kind of analogy

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Speaker 2: clicked with them, like the handcrafted model, like it takes

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Speaker 2: way more time, way more effort, but the end result

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Speaker 2: is all the details are right and.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's why the best golf courses, modern day

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Speaker 3: golf courses are being built by the guys that spend

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Speaker 3: the most time on site. You know Tom Doak, you

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Speaker 3: know Brian Swanik, his guy moves to tar moves to

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Speaker 3: New Zealand to Bill Tari and Brian's been all over

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Speaker 3: the place. You know. Bill Cohorr was up here at

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Speaker 3: sand Valley. You know, he basically came up here with

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Speaker 3: his wife and camped out in one of the houses

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Speaker 3: and you know, sat on the sand throw every day.

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Speaker 3: It's it's you know, Gil Hants is on the bulldozer,

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Speaker 3: you know, moves to Brazil. I mean, the the guys

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Speaker 3: that are in our group are on site.

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Speaker 2: It's that funny because Donald Ross, like some of his

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Speaker 2: best screens are the ones that are closest to his

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Speaker 2: house at Pinehurst and closest to his house at Essex.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know that shows a lot, you know,

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Speaker 3: because there's plenty of other ones that were mailed in. Right,

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Speaker 3: There's plenty of golf courses that where the architect is

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Speaker 3: detached from the construction process. And when that happens, then

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Speaker 3: the motives are totally different for the people building it.

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Speaker 3: When I was a contractor, I had very different motives

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Speaker 3: than I do as an architect. And my motives weren't

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Speaker 3: always you know, to spend to reshape a green twelve

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Speaker 3: times because you can't get it right. And that happens

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Speaker 3: all the time now, you know, Yeah, we're reshaping and

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Speaker 3: tweaking all the time until the very last minute, until

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Speaker 3: the seed goes down. And it just wasn't the same

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Speaker 3: as a contractor. So there's plenty of great contractors out there,

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Speaker 3: and they build good golf courses, and there's plenty of

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Speaker 3: great architects. You know, that model isn't producing a lot

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Speaker 3: of top one hundred in the world golf courses.

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Speaker 2: So of the architects you worked with with a contractor, like,

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Speaker 2: I'm hard on a lot of architects and from that

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Speaker 2: general era, like, what are some things that I might

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Speaker 2: be overlooking as to what they did well?

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Speaker 4: I think the probably the group that gets the least

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Speaker 4: love in them, you know, in the.

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Speaker 3: Golf architecture world is Tom Bosio. And what you know

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Speaker 3: what Tom produced and reproduced over and over on a

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Speaker 3: lot a lot of golf courses, and the biggest thing

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Speaker 3: is playability. He produced or designed really playable golf courses

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Speaker 3: all over the country. You didn't do a lot around

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Speaker 3: the world because we didn't really want to work, didn't

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Speaker 3: need to work outside the US. But you know, the

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Speaker 3: Fasio guys in that era were probably as committed as

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Speaker 3: anyone today. I worked on project in Mexico and they

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Speaker 3: had two full time you know, design associates there all

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Speaker 3: the time, and they were they were committed. The problem

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Speaker 3: that they always had was that there was too many

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Speaker 3: tears that you know, they had of Austin and they

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Speaker 3: had of Boston, and Tom was there, you know, he

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Speaker 3: wasn't there enough and he would come in and make

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Speaker 3: pretty large decisions. But they were very committed, and I

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Speaker 3: think they they built a lot of really playable golf courses.

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Speaker 3: And you know that's obviously something that David and I

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Speaker 3: are are trying to push and you know his core

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Speaker 3: in our design ethos is is playability.

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Speaker 2: That's the thing with Fasio courses. There's always like big

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Speaker 2: corridor space I think where he'd messed so, like just

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Speaker 2: make a fair way, like it just was so much

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Speaker 2: long rough. Yeah, and like if you just you look

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Speaker 2: at these places, like you never go there. Most Fasio

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Speaker 2: courses are never like offensive.

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Speaker 3: Ever, they're never. I mean there's some really good ones

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Speaker 3: that you know, they're they're good, they're really really solid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but they never they never inspire you. Like I

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Speaker 2: think something I look at it with golf, like at

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Speaker 2: a very core level, like the really great golf courses,

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Speaker 2: like you start to get sad at the end of

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Speaker 2: the round because you know it's coming to the end

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Speaker 2: for sure, And I think that that's where you're having

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Speaker 2: so much fun, you know, and golf is supposed to

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Speaker 2: be fun. It's tell me about David. You guys have

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Speaker 2: undergone kind of almost like a retransformation back to you know,

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Speaker 2: the fun principles. Tell me about the journey and kind

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Speaker 2: of the change in the ethos over the last five

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Speaker 2: six years, you know.

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Speaker 3: My So, you know, that's a great question because I

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Speaker 3: don't think it was. It was like a blink of

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Speaker 3: time when there was particularly two courses, Tetheroe and the

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Speaker 3: Castle Course that were being built kind of simultaneously. And

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Speaker 3: when I met David, he said, hey, I got to

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Speaker 3: take you over to Scotland right at the beginning of

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Speaker 3: construction at Tetherow and he's like, let's go. We're going

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Speaker 3: to Scotland. So we flew over to Scotland. He showed

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Speaker 3: the castle course. It was there was a few holes

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Speaker 3: that had been grassed, I think, and and he he

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Speaker 3: you know, he showed it, showed me how awesome. Well

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Speaker 3: I loved it. I walked it, you know, went to

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Speaker 3: the old course. We spent some time in St Andrews

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Speaker 3: and I really got to kind of see what he

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Speaker 3: was doing at the castle. And so when I went

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Speaker 3: back to Tetheroe, we kind of tried to emulate that.

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Speaker 3: And one of the shapers actually from the castle Cose

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Speaker 3: Mick mcchaine, he came to Tetheroe as well, and yeah,

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Speaker 3: Mick McShane amazing at, amazing at And so Tetherowe and

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Speaker 3: the Castle course are like twin brothers almost. There. There's

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Speaker 3: you know, there's the there's you know, fringy areas in

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Speaker 3: the middle of fairways and there's you know, wild greens,

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Speaker 3: and you know, neither of the golf courses were on sand,

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Speaker 3: so they were very similar. You know, they're twin brothers,

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Speaker 3: and that's I was almost trying to build what I

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Speaker 3: thought David wanted. And really it's those two courses that

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Speaker 3: sort of you know, got us David maybe a reputation

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Speaker 3: of building these things that are maybe a little too difficult.

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Speaker 3: I think they're both fantastic courses, and if they were

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Speaker 3: one hundred years old, I think both of the courses

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Speaker 3: would be highly revered. You know, new courses that are bold,

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Speaker 3: you know, don't don't usually.

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Speaker 2: So I haven't played either. But one of the things

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Speaker 2: I think is that different isn't always bad. Like I think,

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Speaker 2: especially with today's like era of social media, there's like

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Speaker 2: a there's a potential for everything to become the same

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Speaker 2: because of you know, like, hey, this works here, so

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Speaker 2: let's keep doing it here and here and here, and

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Speaker 2: you know, you went over to the castle course inside

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Speaker 2: and that's your first job with your new boss, and

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Speaker 2: you come back it's like this must have How hard

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Speaker 2: is it to build new stuff like and new ideas

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Speaker 2: and constantly come up with new ideas.

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Speaker 3: It's hard, I mean, and it's it's you know, I

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Speaker 3: think with Taylor on the castle, you know he was

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Speaker 3: trying to build David was trying to build both of

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Speaker 3: them at the same time. He had me building Taylor,

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Speaker 3: and he had another guy named Paul Kimber building the castle,

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Speaker 3: and what neither of us did was show restraint, you know,

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Speaker 3: neither of us. I was pushing the gas pedal as

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Speaker 3: hard as I could, and you know Paul was doing

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Speaker 3: the same in Scotland, and I think, you know, we

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Speaker 3: were trying to do something super different. I had no

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Speaker 3: one telling me no, everyone was you know, it was yes, yes, yes.

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Speaker 3: And David, you know, for whatever, I think for a

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Speaker 3: blink of time he maybe just lost a little bit

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Speaker 3: of focus on on both of those projects and let

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Speaker 3: me and Paul sort of, you know, really really be

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Speaker 3: and the shapers too, they were pushing the limits, you know.

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Speaker 3: Mick McShane was, he was He wanted to create the wildest,

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Speaker 3: crazy screens of all time. And I think it's easy

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Speaker 3: to do something different, but it's really hard to then

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Speaker 3: make it playable. We have to show some restraint. If

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Speaker 3: I could do tether over again, a little bit of

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Speaker 3: restraint around the greens, a few things to change, and

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Speaker 3: it's a top you know, fifty in the world golf

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Speaker 3: course because I think it's amazing and it's on a

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Speaker 3: great site. Same with the Castle course.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's easy to do something different, but

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Speaker 3: how will it be viewed long term? Is it a

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Speaker 3: good golf course. You know, that's really the balance as

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Speaker 3: you try to do something that hasn't been done before.

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Speaker 3: But you know, if you don't show any restraint and

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Speaker 3: then then probably gonna playability will suffer.

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Speaker 2: You think about Sagrass. When Sagrass first opened, everybody hated it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like the players called it like you know,

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Speaker 2: goofy golf, and you read the quotes from that first players.

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Speaker 2: But once people get used to it different, it's not

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Speaker 2: necessarily always that bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, And like I said, I think long

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Speaker 3: term the cast course in tether will be seen as

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Speaker 3: you know, amazing golf courses because I think they're they're

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Speaker 3: both they're both really amazing sites.

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Speaker 2: Since you're think that the greatest sites were the Golden

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Speaker 2: Age architects and today's architect would have, you know, built

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Speaker 2: a better course in your opinion, what's the greatest course

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Speaker 2: in the world.

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Speaker 3: Probably Pine Valley. Yeah, I mean I think Pine Valley

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Speaker 3: is sort of you know, it's it's everything that I

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Speaker 3: think great golf is. I think it's the greens are

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Speaker 3: you know, amazing. I think it's it's nice. I feel

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Speaker 3: like it's fairly wide and and you know, pretty generous

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Speaker 3: off the tee, which is great. I didn't lose the ball,

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Speaker 3: you know, either time I played it, and very challenging

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Speaker 3: into the green. So you know the challenge is there.

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Speaker 3: You've got to be on it. You have to be

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Speaker 3: you know, you have to be playing good golf and

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Speaker 3: the setting is fantastic.

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Speaker 2: It's that's a that's a good sight.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is an amazing thing. You can you know,

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Speaker 3: you can see what great architects today like Tom Doe

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Speaker 3: Guitar ev what guys like us can do with amazing sights. Right,

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Speaker 3: it's it's you know, it is uh. I think both

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Speaker 3: these courses sand Ally and Mammothoons are the same. We

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Speaker 3: get great sites with no constraints, and we can and

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Speaker 3: the Kaisers have let us, you know, let us come

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Speaker 3: out here and lay off wherever we want, make everything

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Speaker 3: else secondary. And you know that's what those Golden Age

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Speaker 3: architects did. They didn't have someone telling them where the

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00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 3: clubhouse needed to be and you know, telling them about

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Speaker 3: a green tree frog that you know had to we

406
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Speaker 3: had to keep all these trees for environmental reasons. I mean,

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Speaker 3: none of that stuff has happening back then.

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Speaker 2: So what's the biggest challenge when you get a world

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Speaker 2: class site like mammothin's.

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Speaker 3: Not disappointing people. That's the biggest challenge. I mean, if

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Speaker 3: you don't nail it, you know, there's no excuse, right.

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Speaker 3: We have a lot of excuses on other projects where

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Speaker 3: it's other people are or other you know, circumstances are

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Speaker 3: constraining our our creativity. But someone like man students, there

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Speaker 3: is no constraints. There's no one to blame. If it's

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Speaker 3: not great, it's David Nieball.

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Speaker 2: So I think one of the most unique things here

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Speaker 2: is the routing and how it's you know, you've worked

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Speaker 2: over tough ground that other architects passed on, you know,

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Speaker 2: like from your standpoint, how the process of coming up

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Speaker 2: with this routing with David and Nick. How difficult was that.

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Speaker 3: No, I wasn't very involved in the routing because I

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Speaker 3: was working on other stuff. I think I was in

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Speaker 3: England at the time, so Nick and David were over

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Speaker 3: here together. But you know Nick, who's our other partner.

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Speaker 3: He has a really strong background in landscape architecture and

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Speaker 3: I know it's a dirty word these days, but in

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Speaker 3: AutoCAD and you know, using using the tools that modern

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Speaker 3: architects have on their finger tips to model the ground,

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Speaker 3: and you know a lot of other architects looked at

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Speaker 3: our site and no one, no one could really figure

432
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 3: it out. Then, you know, Nick did some amazing stuff

433
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 3: with AutoCAD and modeled the the landscape and we figured

434
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 3: out that there was this big giant V ridge running

435
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 3: through this site. And it was if we modeled the

436
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 3: entire holding landholding, which was like a couple of thousand acres,

437
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 3: and that ridge completely stood out. You can you can

438
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 3: use AutoCAD to create you know, different colors for different elevations.

439
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 3: So instantly we had this big giant map with two

440
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 3: thousand acres on it and there's just a giant V ridge.

441
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 3: You know, that was the most prominent feature by far

442
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 3: on the whole landscape, and instantly David and Nick gravitated

443
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 3: towards it. So, you know, we were looking for a

444
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: dramatic site and we had to find a way through it.

445
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 3: And those guys with the you know, with the AutoCAD

446
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 3: work that they did, they found a way to get

447
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 3: over the ridge and different places and sort of set

448
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 3: up the whole routing. You know, there was only one

449
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 3: way to really cross on the north end on the

450
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 3: south end and sort of laid itself out from there.

451
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 2: What's the one thing that you think you wish that

452
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: you know, the regular golfer wouldn't know before playing mammothon.

453
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: I don't think I want him to know anything. I

454
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 3: want them to just come out and, you know, experience

455
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: that walk through the breezeway of the clubhouse out onto

456
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 3: that awesome hutting green and see, you know, the landscape

457
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 3: before them. And my hope is they think, like you know,

458
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 3: they feel that it was always a sand baron, that

459
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 3: it never was a pine forest, and that you know,

460
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 3: it always sort of looked like that and we just

461
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 3: laid golf over it. But you know, I don't I

462
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 3: don't feel that you need to explain it to anybody.

463
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 3: You don't need to tell them anything. You just let

464
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 3: them show up and experience it.

465
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: What about your job?

466
00:27:59,080 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: What about my job?

467
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: What would you want somebody to understand more about your job?

468
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 3: I guess you know probably what every other you know,

469
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 3: associate designer would want. And a little recognition you know

470
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,479
Speaker 3: that that David didn't design it all by himself. You

471
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 3: know there was a team of guys in granted he's

472
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 3: the inspiration and he's the whole reason we're here. And

473
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 3: you know he he taught me everything I know about

474
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 3: golf course design. But you know, we also have I'm

475
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: a big part of this, you know, I was here

476
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 3: every day and my shape, you know, the shapers that

477
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,239
Speaker 3: work for us, Bernie Poul Verrari and Luis Barrella. We're

478
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 3: out here every day and you know this place is

479
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: you know, I wish the average person knew that it

480
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 3: was more of a team effort, you know, But that's you.

481
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: Know, I think that goes with everything. It's I think

482
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: it's almost it's almost a media's fault because it's way

483
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 2: easier to like gravitate towards one person than tell a

484
00:28:58,520 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: story of a team.

485
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: You know, absolutely there's there's a leader in every team,

486
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 3: and you know, and and David deserves it, you know,

487
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 3: but and I don't. It doesn't really bother me that much.

488
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 3: But it's uh, and David's really well, really good at

489
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 3: trying to, you know, say it as in the media

490
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 3: that it's always a team effort. You know that it's

491
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 3: him and I and Nick and are shapers and the

492
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 3: rest of the guys on the group.

493
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 2: But so if you could build, you know, one kind

494
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: of different style of golf, you know, whether it be

495
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: a different concept with the number of holes or par

496
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: or what.

497
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: Would it be. You know, obviously, I think the biggest

498
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 3: thing is just time, right that that none of us

499
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 3: is as fathers and generally have as much time as

500
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 3: as you know, as our parents did. My dad can

501
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: go out and golf all day on Saturday and you know,

502
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 3: no big deal. But you know, as we as we

503
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 3: involved as parents, I can't go on a Saturday morning

504
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 3: and play golf every week, you know, and I don't

505
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 3: want to. I'd rather spend the time with my kids.

506
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: So it would really be about trying to do things quicker.

507
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think it's more of a style

508
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 3: of design, you know, that that promotes a faster pace

509
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 3: of play. The pace of play is a is at

510
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 3: playing slow golf. I hate it, and if I'm behind

511
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: a group and it's slow, I almost just want to

512
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 3: walk off no matter where I'm playing.

513
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: That's what I was playing Whistling Straight a couple of

514
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 2: weeks ago. Took us five and a half hours to play,

515
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: and we waited on every tea box. It was maddening.

516
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: Made me want to walk off the golf course.

517
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 3: You know, I think I think the and obviously you know,

518
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 3: the private club you know, ideas probably the only place

519
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 3: where this really works. But the ahoopie match play thing,

520
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 3: I've heard you talking about that, and I think I

521
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 3: heard Gil talking about it on your podcast. But the

522
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 3: idea of match play, you know, in the US is

523
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 3: something that isn't fully embraced, and in the UK it is.

524
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 3: And I spent a couple of years living in London

525
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 3: and playing golf all around in the UK and golf

526
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 3: over there is much more about a match, you know,

527
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 3: a competition between friends. Rarely do you see a guy

528
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 3: just go out and golf by himself, you know, it

529
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 3: just doesn't happen. It's, hey, let's get a game together,

530
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 3: you know, let's get a couple of guys and we'll

531
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: go play and we'll play match and it's it promotes

532
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 3: fast play, right because you just pick up and people

533
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 3: in the US, you know, the US golfer and I

534
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 3: think a lot of it has to do with a

535
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: handicap system doesn't fully understand that. So if we could,

536
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 3: you know, if we could, and maybe it's just a model,

537
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 3: maybe it's not as much about architecture, but trying to

538
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 3: do things that promote more match play. Yeah, you know,

539
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 3: play quicker, enjoy the compent a little bit.

540
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: She played a lot of alternative shot over there.

541
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 3: I didn't. I mean, I knew a lot of guys

542
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: that did, and I played on several occasions. But and

543
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 3: I played a couple you know events at my club

544
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 3: that are alternate shot and I love it, and I

545
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 3: think it's amazing.

546
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 2: That's like one way to really speed up the game

547
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 2: at all.

548
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 3: Somehow, in the US we are fixated on playing our

549
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 3: own ball the whole time, all the way to the

550
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 3: hole and putting it in and posting a score on

551
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 3: our you know, gin handicap and it causes five and

552
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 3: a half hour rounds.

553
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: Do you think that's because of the PGA Tour.

554
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's the tour. But in the

555
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 3: UK the handicap system is much different. Right, You play

556
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 3: three competitive matches, I think, and you get a handicap

557
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: from your club and that's it. That's your index, that's

558
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 3: your that's your you know, and then so for the

559
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 3: rest of the year doesn't You don't post scores, So

560
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: if you're playing a match, you just pick up the ball.

561
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 3: You know, if the guy gets three and you're sitting

562
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 3: there in four, pick your ball. And you know, I

563
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: don't know if it's the PGA Tour or I guess

564
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 3: more of the USGA, but the way that we the

565
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 3: American system of posting the scores for handicap and constantly

566
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 3: posting every single one, it's counterproductive.

567
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: The handicap system drives me nuts because like it's posting

568
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 2: a score from one day to the next, Like I

569
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: think it's just stupid because the golf course could be

570
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,719
Speaker 2: completely different in the conditions, Like if you play in

571
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: really tough conditions, like you shoot seventy sixty, play really

572
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: well and you could shoot seventy two the next day,

573
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: and really easy conditions that's not necessarily Like it's so

574
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: skew flawed in so many ways, the handicap system. It's

575
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: one of my I think that is a big problem

576
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: in the game of golf, like one of one of

577
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: like it like you alluded to pace a play, but

578
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: also like the concept of like why you're out there

579
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: playing is.

580
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 3: Too yeah, And I think that's why we have eighteen

581
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 3: hundred eighteen hole seventy two hundred dark golf courses. You know,

582
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 3: on all of our projects, we know that's what our

583
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 3: client expects, that's what the golfer expects because that's what

584
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 3: you know, they measured their self against. So you know,

585
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 3: there's a real I think it's a real lack of

586
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 3: you know, understanding about the game and the competition side

587
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: of it, about playing a game between you know, two

588
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 3: four guys or two guys. And you know, if we

589
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 3: played a competition on a thirteen hole you know, forty

590
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 3: two hundred dard golf course, we have a great time.

591
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 3: But if you're out there by yourself and you're trying

592
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 3: to test your game against you know, what you perceive

593
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 3: as a modern you know, modern sized golf course and

594
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 3: you got to post your score, all those things are

595
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 3: sort of tiling up against know, pay some play and

596
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 3: match play and competition and all the things that I

597
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 3: that in the UK you know, really encourages golf. You know,

598
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 3: it's a it really opened my eyes living in the

599
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 3: UK to see how the culture of golf is so

600
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: different over there, and uh, you know it, I wish

601
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 3: we could do more ohopie match plays, you know, match

602
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 3: clubs and really focus on that style of play.

603
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, Like, I just like talking about this

604
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 2: like makes me want to play alternate shot the next

605
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,959
Speaker 2: time I play, like in a match, you know, play.

606
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 2: I think the idea of four people playing two balls,

607
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 2: you know, is so much faster. It's like you could

608
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: get around and you know, and I know there's some

609
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: clubs over there that are are strictly for uh four

610
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: ball clubs.

611
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and a lot and a lot of them. Or

612
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 3: they'll do it on you know, Saturdays, or you know,

613
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 3: always before noon or you know, so they'll they'll I'll

614
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 3: put they'll have very you know, a lot of clubs

615
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 3: have pretty strict rules about who plays win. So if

616
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 3: you're going to play, you know, four Americans playing their

617
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: own ball, then you can only play after two on

618
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 3: a Tuesday, you know. But if you're you know, two

619
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 3: old boys from down the street, you know, you can

620
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 3: play in two hours on a Saturday morning.

621
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 2: It's amazing because it's like they're just like, these guys

622
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: get it.

623
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 5: They can play, I want to.

624
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 3: And they're going to look for their ball for twenty

625
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 3: minutes if they hit it into the gorse.

626
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: What were your favorite courses over there?

627
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 3: You know, I spent most of my time I lived

628
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 3: in Surrey, so I played, you know, I really played

629
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 3: the sunny Sunningdale and you know Walton Heath and Saint

630
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 3: George's Hills. Saint Georgie's Hill is one of my favorites.

631
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 3: I really I love playing. I played there a lot.

632
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: The client I worked for lived at Saint George's Hills,

633
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 3: so he had me up there quite a bit to

634
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 3: play swim Ley Forth, all of those courses. Swinley Force

635
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 3: is absolutely amazing. New Zealand has one that you know,

636
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,479
Speaker 3: not a lot of people know about that's really good.

637
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 3: And then I played a lot of the English links too,

638
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 3: which are you know, Royal Saint George's is fantastic.

639
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 2: Saw.

640
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 3: I don't know how much time you spent down there,

641
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 3: but you know, there's a lot of really good courses

642
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 3: around London an hour drive from London, whether it's you know,

643
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 3: the Surrey courses are out to the coast.

644
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's Michael Clayton said that he evolved golf around

645
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: the world. He thinks he'd pick if he had to

646
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: pick one, it would be like.

647
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 5: The London area and there's just so much good golf

648
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 5: right around there and the heathlands, and I.

649
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: Mean, you talk about important golf, Like I think the

650
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: Heathland courses are probably the most important of all the

651
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 2: golf courses ever built, because they were the first that

652
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 2: weren't said that said, golf is okay if it's not

653
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: on the ocean.

654
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 3: Sure, and you know, and it brought golf to the masses,

655
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 3: right to a large population center. So suddenly there's like

656
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty two golf courses in the county

657
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 3: sty alone, you know, So it's sort of it brought

658
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 3: golf closer to the golfer, so you weren't driving out

659
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 3: to the you know, to the links, and you know,

660
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 3: so it was and some of those golf courses are

661
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 3: just amazing.

662
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 2: If you were designing a municipal course, would anything change

663
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 2: in what you did do there versus say, a golf

664
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 2: course like Mammoth Doomed.

665
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that there's you know, there's

666
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: a time and a place that you can build mammoth dunes,

667
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 3: and it's on a site like this where we have

668
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 3: plenty of water, and we have plenty of labor to

669
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: mow the big fairways, and you know, we've we've got

670
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 3: the perfect scenario to build a really big golf course,

671
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 3: and you know most municipal courses. Obviously, I don't like that.

672
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 3: I think given that circumstance, I wouldn't be looking to

673
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 3: build one hundred dark fairways. You know, I think tight

674
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 3: and small is okay build a par sixty seven, you know,

675
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 3: a five thousand yard golf course on a cool piece

676
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 3: of land and you know wherever in la or something,

677
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 3: you know, And I think, I think short and fast quick,

678
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: you know, things that move fast, And I would and

679
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 3: I would do walking only, you know, because I think

680
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 3: golf carts cause a lot of a lot of issues

681
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 3: with pace and play as well.

682
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 2: He makes your job a lot tougher, too much more difficult.

683
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you're trying to build a course that's walking only,

684
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 3: like here, for example, you could put it, you know,

685
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 3: in the back to right next to the green, right

686
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 3: or or behind it, or you know somewhere where you're

687
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 3: walking off the green and you are walking right onto

688
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,479
Speaker 3: the next t box and off you go. So pace

689
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 3: and play is really quick. The second you have cart paths,

690
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 3: suddenly the cart path needs to be you know, you

691
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 3: don't want it too close to the green right because

692
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 3: then your ball might hit it, and so you're moving

693
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 3: the cart path far away from the green, and then

694
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 3: you got to know you cross the cart path. So

695
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 3: if you're walking, suddenly the next tee you know pretty

696
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 3: much fifty sixty seventy yards away the car. That's caused

697
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 3: a ton of problems with pace of play. People always say, wow,

698
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to go play in a car. I'll play

699
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 3: super fast. It's like I've played just as fast as you.

700
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 3: I just won't sit and wait as long as you.

701
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 3: I'll hit my ball and walk to it. I think

702
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 3: walking municipal golf courses should try harder to have walking,

703
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 3: you know, walking only.

704
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: What's crazy is a lot of them don't even have.

705
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 3: A walking right, Yeah, here you go. You get a

706
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 3: cart with your pizzaimal, I don't want a car.

707
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: I rolled up to Southern Pines in the Pinehurst area.

708
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: It's a cool little core. I talk about a good

709
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 2: piece of crap. That's a really good piece of ground.

710
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 2: And there's nobody there because it's bad weather, and except

711
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: that one old lady working in the shop. And I

712
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: walked in and she's like, oh, that'll be fifty six

713
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 2: dollars or something like that. And she's like, and I

714
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 2: don't know if I have a cart tea And I

715
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: was like, well, I don't want a cart, I want

716
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,959
Speaker 2: to walk, and she goes well, and she like looked

717
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 2: at me perplexed because like all of a sudden, like

718
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 2: it was like she didn't even have like she didn't

719
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: know what the walking right was. And that to me

720
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 2: was like it almost offended me because it was a

721
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 2: it's an old school golf course where it's a beautiful

722
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: walk because the tea is right, like just like you

723
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 2: talked about green tea, green tea, green tea, like, and

724
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: it's a hilly course.

725
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 3: But so it was.

726
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 2: It was a tough walk, but you know, very very walkable.

727
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 3: I think so many courses. A tough walk to me

728
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 3: is whence between the green and the tea are far apart,

729
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 3: because I get disengaged. Yeah, I'm instantly thinking about something else.

730
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 3: Or if I'm walking a hilly golf course, but the

731
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 3: hilly part is between the tea and the green. It's funny.

732
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 3: I rarely, rarely, you know, do you feel disengaged. I

733
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 3: feel a little tired, but you're anxious to get to

734
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 3: your ball because you're in the game, right and the

735
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 3: second you put out you want to get back in

736
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 3: the game as quick as you can.

737
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 2: I think that's what you hit on. It is like

738
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: they anticipate walking up the hill. When you're walking up

739
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 2: to see what your next shot is, what your lie is,

740
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 2: you know, what how close you are to flag, like,

741
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: what your pot looks like. That all of a sudden

742
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 2: takes the hill out of the equation because you're working

743
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 2: off of excitement and adrenaline. And I think that's one

744
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: of the beauties of golf, is that anticipation. I think

745
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 2: carts take away from that too.

746
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 3: Completely, because suddenly you're driving over to the you know,

747
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 3: you miss half the golf courses. You're on the car

748
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: back the whole time, and then you're you know, circling

749
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 3: around the back of the green, and then you know

750
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 3: it's it's yeah that you know. It certainly makes our

751
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 3: job much more difficult.

752
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 2: M So, if you could get get rid of any

753
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:21,720
Speaker 2: American uh golf habit outside we'll say, outside of carts,

754
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: what would it be.

755
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 3: It would be not playing match plate. You know, we'd

756
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 3: be playing stroke play, everyone putting out their own ball.

757
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 3: That's the biggest that's the worst habit I think we have,

758
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 3: and it causes all kinds of problems. It's a domino effect,

759
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 3: so you know, definitely pace and plays obviously, the pace

760
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 3: of play is the biggest thing.

761
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's it's pretty sound like a

762
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 2: broken record, as I sounded, to start to feel like

763
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 2: I'm a broken record when I do these over and

764
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: over again. So let's let's get into overrated underrated. Okay,

765
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 2: all right, template hole highly overrated? What about template holes

766
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 2: within your own architecture group?

767
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,919
Speaker 3: Oh, we don't, I don't have them. We don't, We don't.

768
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 3: You know, we've I know of you know, a Burritz

769
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 3: and we built some, but I don't even know if

770
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 3: we call them that when we're building you maybe we

771
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,919
Speaker 3: call them that after, but we don't have holes. Hey

772
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 3: remember the third hole you know on that course, let's

773
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 3: build that again. That never happens because the land is

774
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 3: so different than you know, you really we really tried

775
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 3: to respond to the land. And if you're always if

776
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 3: you have a good site and you don't let the

777
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 3: land do the talking, then you know you don't need

778
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 3: a template hole. Right, you're letting the greens there, well,

779
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 3: there's never been a green built there before like that,

780
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 3: where it's the site so we maybe and maybe that's

781
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 3: a you know, maybe that's a scenario where template holes

782
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 3: are have some merit is on a weak.

783
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 2: Safe yeah, like a flat site. They're tried and true.

784
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: I think yeah, I mean, I think the core principles

785
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: of golf architecture are exceptionally simple, you know, like what

786
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,240
Speaker 2: builds a good golf course? And I think the temple

787
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 2: holes were great. I think people have the wrong theory

788
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 2: on the temple holes, is like they were just principles

789
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: like not this just because one burritz could be completely

790
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 2: different than another, and one road hole can be completely

791
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 2: different than another road hole. But the theory is a

792
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: very simple and very strong you know, hey, play close

793
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: to this hazard, gain the advantage, play safe, and you know,

794
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 2: in essence, a lot of holes are just a copy

795
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 2: of that strategy.

796
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 3: Sure, and I get it, but I've also been around

797
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 3: other architects who cannot think about anything. But you know,

798
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 3: this is going to be my aupsehole, and then this

799
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,280
Speaker 3: is going to be, you know, the fourth at Pine Valley,

800
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 3: and then this one is going to be like the

801
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 3: fifth hole at you know, and and that's all. They

802
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 3: only refer to a golf hole that they're going to

803
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 3: build referring to some other course, you know, and and

804
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:26,280
Speaker 3: it's almost like they're, you know, they're a cover band,

805
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 3: like you know, no original work, like you know. And

806
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 3: that's how I feel about temple holes is there's someone

807
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 3: else's idea on a certain site. And yeah, they were

808
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 3: repeated maybe by you know, C V McDonald and then

809
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 3: other people, but it's it's someone else's ideas. It's like

810
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 3: a cover band, you.

811
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: Know, or a wedding band or a wedding band, wedding bands.

812
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 3: I went and uh.

813
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 2: So when we got when my wife and I got married,

814
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: we went and you know, saw the wedding bands at

815
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: wedding and so I got the pleasure of going to

816
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,919
Speaker 2: a wedding and I was like sober. I never had

817
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 2: realized how bad wedding bands are until.

818
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 5: That moment, but then I realized. I thought about It's like, well,

819
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 5: if they're really good, they wouldn't be a wedding man,

820
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 5: they'd be a real band.

821
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 2: So I mean, I think there's merit. I think there's

822
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 2: there's merit to certain people doing the template. Like Bill

823
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: Core came on the podcast and talked about how Pete

824
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 2: Dye changed golf architecture twice, and after Harbortown everybody copied

825
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 2: that and it was never the same. And after Sawgrass,

826
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 2: everybody copied that, but they were missing the die sauce

827
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 2: behind it.

828
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 3: And I think that he was on site. Yeah, he

829
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 3: has the same he had. He was the original guy

830
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 3: with the sauce being on site.

831
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: I think there could be an argument made that Pete

832
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 2: Dye is like the most important architect and golf history

833
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 2: outside of maybe like old Tom Morris.

834
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 3: It's you know, his his focus. And you know, I

835
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 3: haven't been around him, so I'm only speaking from the

836
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 3: stories I've heard from other guys. But he was on

837
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 3: site all the time. He wasn't afraid to spend hundreds

838
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 3: of days during construction on a project and get his

839
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 3: hands dirty in that, you know, that is I think,

840
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 3: you know, there's so many architects who are as talented

841
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:37,439
Speaker 3: as you know, the group I've spoken about over and over,

842
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 3: but they just don't They just they for whatever reason,

843
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 3: they just aren't prepared to be there as much as

844
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 3: they should be, and their products kind of suffers from that.

845
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 2: And then I mean the idea of not being on

846
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 2: site a lot is like yeah, I mean like it's

847
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 2: kind of crazy that it even was like a.

848
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 3: Real thing like that, and it still isn't it probably

849
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 3: will be for a long time where you know, there's

850
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 3: still gonna be a lot of guys drawing grading plans

851
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 3: on in their you know, in their office and handing

852
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 3: them off to contractors.

853
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 2: Well, it goes against like running a business because like

854
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 2: when you're trying to run a business, you're always trying

855
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 2: to scale, like how can we do things more efficiently,

856
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: faster and take on more clients. But I think with architecture,

857
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: you're in an industry where it's more art base like

858
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 2: where you have to like you have to do the

859
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: world like you can't look at it as like we're

860
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: going to get as efficient so we can take on

861
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 2: as many jobs as possible. Like there's I think a

862
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: clear I just don't think it's a You can't have

863
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 2: a McDonald's version of golf course architects.

864
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely not, not not successfully, you know, not maybe

865
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 3: in two thousand and five when they were building five

866
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 3: hundred golf courses the year in the US, you know

867
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 3: that that model might have worked at least from a

868
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 3: business model, but it wasn't producing top one hundred golf

869
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 3: courses in the world.

870
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 2: You know, so you've mentioned the rankings a number of times,

871
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 2: like do you feel as an as you know, an architect,

872
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 2: that that is how your work, like how you judge

873
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 2: your work to looking back, No.

874
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 3: I guess you know, when I say top one hundred,

875
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 3: I mean probably my own top one hundred. I don't

876
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 3: necessarily mean Joe pass Off's top one hundred, you know,

877
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:32,240
Speaker 3: Golf magazine or you know, Golf Digests or anyone else's.

878
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 3: It does make you feel good when you look at

879
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 3: you know, when you build something like amil Sands and

880
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 3: it you know it's super high in the rankings, right

881
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 3: when that makes you feel good, of course, And when

882
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 3: they're not. Yeah, And that's the funny thing. I think

883
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 3: we all love them when we're in them. But the

884
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 3: second you build a golf course like Taylor is a

885
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 3: good example, I think it's amazing, but it's not in there,

886
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 3: so then it pass me off. So you know, you're

887
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 3: you're the rankings are by nature, you know, they're it's

888
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 3: completely subjective, right, like sure, there's you could probably name

889
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 3: you know, you could probably pick fifty golf courses that

890
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 3: are amazing and not even rank them one or two,

891
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 3: you know, top my top fifty and just here's my

892
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 3: fifty top golf courses. And I think that would probably

893
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 3: be a much better way to do it, you know,

894
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 3: in groupings rather than one two, you know, because it's

895
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 3: so easy to look at seventy three and say seventy

896
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 3: three is way better than fifty two. You know, the

897
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 3: fifty two ranked one.

898
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 2: Well that's it. I'm in the same about like the

899
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 2: idea of putting a number next, Like there's like a

900
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 2: clear tiers, you know, and it's like would you rather play? Like?

901
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 2: And then I start to think about it. It's like,

902
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: you know what's better this golf course or this golf course.

903
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 2: It's like, well, they're both great, and it's like I,

904
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 2: you know, like which one would I rather play on

905
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:01,839
Speaker 2: a date? Well, I don't know, it depends on what

906
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 2: I'm looking for.

907
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 3: Imagine if someone did that, someone else did that with

908
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 3: a different form of art, like what are your top

909
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 3: what's the number one sculpture in the world. I mean,

910
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 3: that makes no sense, right, It's it's our it's it's

911
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:15,879
Speaker 3: from your point of view. It's how you played that day,

912
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,399
Speaker 3: it's how the weather was, it's how nice the kid

913
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 3: at the golf shop. Was it's how good your caddy was?

914
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 3: You know, So ranking a golf course, I would say,

915
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 3: is like ranking sculptures. It's it's you know, it doesn't

916
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 3: it doesn't really mean that much, unless, of course, you know,

917
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 3: one of our courses is ranked highly, and then it's

918
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 3: super important.

919
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 5: If you're the number one sculptor, then of course I

920
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 5: want to rank. It's uh, what would you what do

921
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 5: you think should.

922
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 2: Go into evaluating a golf course?

923
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 3: You know, what should go or what does go? What

924
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 3: should go? You know, as you should be able to

925
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 3: show up and as if you're gonna if you're if

926
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 3: you are going to do you know, be a rank

927
00:52:58,120 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 3: or if you're saying, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna rank

928
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 3: the golf course architecturally, and then you need to do

929
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 3: it in a bubble. You know, you need to not

930
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 3: think about the guy at the pro shop or the

931
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 3: traffic on the way there, or you know, the fact

932
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 3: that it was cold that day, or that your caddy

933
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 3: was the you know, not the best.

934
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 2: Because the look drives them up. Notts is how you played, how.

935
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 3: You play it. If I played good, it's great, of course,

936
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 3: is awesome. If I can't make a pass. You know,

937
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 3: it's no where the greens are horrible, and it's you know,

938
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 3: it's subjective, you know, and I don't think that you

939
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 3: can a lot of people and aren't in in the

940
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 3: you know, modern day architects. You know, I'd walked it.

941
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 3: I love to walk the golf course, and you know,

942
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 3: I really got a feel for it. I never played it,

943
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 3: but I walked it. That always sort of I always

944
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 3: think that's a cop out. You know, you didn't play it,

945
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 3: but you're going to evaluate it. Even though you never

946
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 3: swung a golf club on it. You walked around it.

947
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,839
Speaker 3: You didn't fully understand the golf course, but you're going

948
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 3: to tell me that you have an opinion on it

949
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 3: because you walked around. I find that really difficult, and

950
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 3: that's a that's a big thing in today's you know,

951
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 3: young kids. Well I went out and walked it. Okay,

952
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,359
Speaker 3: maybe that's great if you couldn't play it, but played

953
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 3: the golf course and evaluate it.

954
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 2: I think I understand the golf course more when I

955
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 2: walk it than when I play it.

956
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 3: Might can you give an opinion on, you know, architecturally,

957
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 3: how it played.

958
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 2: I like to so I walk with like a wedge,

959
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 2: a seven iron, a putter.

960
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 3: So you're playing the all. I don't think you have

961
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 3: to play it for a score. I think you have

962
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 3: to hit shots on it, and you have to you know,

963
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:43,919
Speaker 3: feel the grass and you have to you know, see

964
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 3: what happens when it balls back towards the green.

965
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: I think, like around the greens is where hitting shots

966
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 2: and and but like from tee to green, I pretty

967
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 2: much know where I'm going to hit it. And I

968
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 2: can stand on a team look at this and look

969
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 2: at a shot and be like, oh this is this

970
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 2: is a good shot, you know. But I think, like

971
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 2: to your point, like to fully grasp it, you need

972
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,959
Speaker 2: to play. I also don't really think you can judge

973
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 2: a golf course one time around.

974
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 3: I agree, like, I know if it's bad, I know

975
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 3: if I play it once and I end up saying,

976
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 3: you know, like I can usually say, yeah, I'm not

977
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 3: ever coming back here. If it's you know, a good

978
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 3: golf course, like something like Fine Valley, you know, you're

979
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,879
Speaker 3: in awe of it the first time you play it,

980
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 3: you know, and you need to play it again. Cypru's

981
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 3: kind of the same thing. The old course sort of

982
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 3: the same thing. You know, sometimes when when the personality

983
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 3: of the golf course is so big, I really think

984
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 3: you kind of jaded, you know, and you have to

985
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 3: almost play it again to really understand it.

986
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 2: It's funny because like Mammoth is a good example of

987
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 2: like I've played it now three times, but I've walked

988
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 2: it probably five or six other times, and I've understood

989
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 2: it more and more and I've appreciated aspects of it

990
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 2: more and more every time I played it. And like,

991
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 2: so it's funny because like my opinion after one round

992
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 2: would have been completely different it is now after playing

993
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 2: a bunch of times, Like I just understand the golf

994
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 2: course more, like you know, like it's a weird golf

995
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 2: course in the sense like every hole I feel like

996
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 2: out there, every hole I should be like pushing the

997
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: envelope trying to make a verdict versus so many holes.

998
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 2: I've been conditioned in my life to like, you know,

999
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 2: like play conservative, like play and like don't just go

1000
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 2: after it all round long, like which is I But

1001
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 2: there are shots out there where like today I was like, wow,

1002
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 2: I really got to be careful here. But at the

1003
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 2: same time, it's a different challenge in the sense of

1004
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 2: like prs are always very attainable for a good player.

1005
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, like you can if you try

1006
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 2: and make a par, you're never going to get yourself

1007
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 2: really like you can make eighteen pars. It's where you

1008
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,240
Speaker 2: get in troubles when you push for the birdie.

1009
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 3: And that's what David and I's real philosophy was here.

1010
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 3: Let's forget about defend par. Let's forget about let's let's

1011
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 3: give par away. Let's defend birdie. You know, let's really

1012
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 3: try to defend a good player from getting a birdie,

1013
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 3: because that's really what we want. If you try to

1014
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 3: defend par, then the average guy he's getting bowe. You're

1015
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 3: a double boge, right.

1016
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: And that's like why I think the brilliant, like I

1017
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 2: honestly think that like and at like a fifteen handicaps

1018
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 2: are universally going to just like absolutely love this place

1019
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 2: because it's going to be the first golf course that

1020
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 2: just doesn't beat them over their head all around long, you.

1021
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 3: Know, and a lot like gamble sands, I think the

1022
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 3: good players, like you said, a good player is going

1023
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 3: to think that they can, you know, score their very

1024
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 3: best score they've ever scored at mammothudes because they they

1025
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 3: see that I attainable. Yeah, But once you start pressing

1026
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 3: on the gas and you start thinking, okay, I'm going

1027
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 3: to get you know, I got a birdie there, and

1028
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 3: then I can get another brand, and then you know,

1029
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 3: you if it's not, you know, no one's going to

1030
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 3: go out there and get ten birdies. Right.

1031
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 2: Making birdies is hard any golf course anywhere.

1032
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 3: Right, if it was a flat field three hundred yards long,

1033
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 3: birdies are still hard. They still up.

1034
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 2: It's like you still have to hit exceptional shots. Yeah.

1035
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 2: Like I tried to drive the tenth green a short

1036
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 2: part four today and I like lost ball. Yeah, and

1037
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 2: that was like the killer on my route. It's like

1038
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 2: I would have shot a really good score if I

1039
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 2: had lost ball.

1040
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1041
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 2: That's like that's where I pushed the gas.

1042
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 3: There's some punishment, there's some edges. And I think that

1043
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 3: is if I if I could bottle up architecture, and

1044
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 3: you know what I think really good architecture is. I

1045
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 3: think it's bringing the good player, the high handicap or

1046
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 3: the low handicap player and the high handicap player together

1047
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 3: as close as you can get them. So, you know,

1048
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 3: trying to make it as easy again. The handicap system

1049
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 3: is set up for the good player in the US

1050
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 3: right because it's all about your potential, and my potential

1051
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 3: as an eight handicap is probably you know, an eighty.

1052
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 3: My potential is that and I you know, whereas normally

1053
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 3: I'll probably get a ninety and a good player. If

1054
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 3: you're a single digit handicap, a one handicap, you're gonna

1055
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 3: shoot around par most of the time.

1056
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 2: Well, so this is the interesting thing. It's like for

1057
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 2: the American system of stroke play, it's very advantageous if

1058
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 2: you're playing net stroke play. I think it's very advantageous

1059
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 2: to be a low handicap. But if you take the

1060
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 2: system and we play match play, the real low handicaps

1061
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 2: had a huge disadvantage because like their propeessie to not

1062
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 2: make big numbers is that's like your advantage is like

1063
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 2: you know, like fifteen is going to make a seven

1064
00:59:57,960 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 2: or an eight, But in nash play.

1065
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 3: You only lose one.

1066
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why match play is a better system. It is.

1067
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 3: I agree hundred percent. I'm I'm a you know, I'm

1068
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 3: a I think I'm an eight handicap right now, but

1069
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 3: I could get you know, a snowman or a verdie

1070
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 3: on any single hole, right, and you're probably you're you're

1071
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 3: never gonna get a snowman. But it's just as hard

1072
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 3: for you to verty it as for me. So match

1073
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:22,439
Speaker 3: play is way better and stroke play you'll probably beat

1074
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 3: me every time, even net, because there's gonna be two

1075
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 3: or three snowman. You know, if I played to my

1076
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 3: very best potential, then we're even mm hm, because you're

1077
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 3: gonna pay your potential almost every day. This is it's

1078
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 3: a you know, it's flawed for the stroke play. So

1079
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 3: any type of architecture that can bring those two players

1080
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 3: together more so that it's more evenly matched. I think

1081
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 3: it's you know, I think that's a winner.

1082
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 2: That's that's a great architecture. And match play. Yeah, that's

1083
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 2: that's the recipe, because match play brings people closer. It's

1084
01:00:53,640 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 2: a it's funny, it's it's the archite actually bringing the

1085
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 2: thing of bringing everybody closer, I think is like the

1086
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 2: nail on the head. Yeah, because like it you don't

1087
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 2: like That's the way I feel when I play some

1088
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 2: of these golf courses that I like to rip on

1089
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 2: is like it's so boring for me and like you

1090
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 2: watch a tour like it's just thoughtless, and then you like,

1091
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 2: my dad's a seventeen handicap and he played. It's just

1092
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 2: it's miserable for me to play with him because of

1093
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 2: how hard it is for him. And I'm spending my

1094
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,919
Speaker 2: whole day looking for golf balls or watching him drop

1095
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 2: golf balls, like and that is I mean, so is

1096
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 2: it possible to build a really good golf course without width?

1097
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 3: I think the strategy becomes much more subtle. Right, the

1098
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 3: greens are smaller, so that the strategy is much subtler.

1099
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, the narrower it gets, the

1100
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 3: the more the strategy is apparent to a really good golfer,

1101
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 3: but maybe less apparent to you know, a higher handicap golfer,

1102
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 3: because they're just trying to hit the fair way. They're

1103
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 3: not picking you know, which side, or I need to

1104
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 3: come in from here. Well, the fairy is only you know,

1105
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 3: eighteen hours wide. I'm just trying to not just trying

1106
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 3: to make the grass, you know. So I think they can,

1107
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 3: it can be a really great golf course, but the strategy,

1108
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 3: you know, the strategy is much more so so, so

1109
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 3: I don't think everyone gets to enjoy a high handicapper

1110
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 3: rarely gets to enjoy the the you know, the strategy

1111
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 3: of a narrow golf course.

1112
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 2: All right, Casey, thanks for coming on.

1113
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure, Yeah, my pleasure.

1114
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 2: Andy. Yeah, it would be excited to see you guys

1115
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 2: next work. I know you got a couple overseas projects,

1116
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,919
Speaker 2: but hopefully sooner. In the America is another one.

1117
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and hopefully they're all in sand Yeah.

1118
01:02:58,640 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 2: Thanks.

1119
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: We've been listening to the fried Egg podcast.

1120
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 3: We do the digging for you.