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Speaker 1: When I was a reserve deputy in the Special Obst Division,

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Speaker 1: I worked often as part of the Jail Search Team

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Speaker 1: cell Extraction Response Team, and we would perform these cell

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Speaker 1: extractions so that we could search for contraband. So we

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Speaker 1: would pull the inmate out, make sure we were safe,

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Speaker 1: and then go on in and look for weapons and drugs,

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Speaker 1: cell phones, anything they were not supposed to have. The

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Speaker 1: inmates at the time were issued standard blue inmate uniforms.

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Speaker 1: If the inmate was issued an orange jumpsuit, it meant

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Speaker 1: they might have a medical condition and you needed to

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Speaker 1: use extreme caution. If they were issued a red jumpsuit,

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Speaker 1: that meant they were dangerous and most often had extreme

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Speaker 1: mental illness of some type. So my very first cell

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Speaker 1: extraction ever was a very large man who was smiling

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Speaker 1: kind of that evil, kind of crazy look on his face,

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Speaker 1: like you shouldn't be smiling, but he was looking at

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Speaker 1: me like you go ahead and unlock this cage if

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Speaker 1: you want to kind of thing. And the first thing

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Speaker 1: that I noticed he was wearing a red top and

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Speaker 1: orange pants, and all I can think of is he

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Speaker 1: as crazy as a rat in a coffee can. From

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Speaker 1: the hips up and from the hips down, he's eat

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Speaker 1: up with something I don't want. So all I knew

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Speaker 1: in that moment is I've got to use my wits

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Speaker 1: about me to understand how I can get this man

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Speaker 1: out of this cell safely for him and for me.

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Speaker 1: And I rely on our experts because again, I may

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Speaker 1: know somebody is in some way, but I don't know

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Speaker 1: what they're suffering from. So why do you bring in

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Speaker 1: a psychiatrist when you're working a cold case or any

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Speaker 1: criminal investigation for that matter. It's more than means motive

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Speaker 1: an opportunity. Those three things are critical. Those things are

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Speaker 1: investigation one O one. Those are the three things you

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Speaker 1: need to understand and prove and apply. But there's always

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Speaker 1: the why, and the why is the thing that keeps

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Speaker 1: you up at night, Doctor Angie. This is where she

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Speaker 1: comes into play. So when you have a case like this,

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Speaker 1: a young mother of two that is murdered the way

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Speaker 1: that Melissa Wolfenberger is murdered, you need a doctor Angie

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Speaker 1: to explain to you this killer, Why did this person

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Speaker 1: kill Why did they kill her? Why did they kill

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Speaker 1: her in that manner? Those things you can use to

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Speaker 1: go toward the motive. Obviously that's going to help in

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Speaker 1: court to sway a jury. Motive is not needed in court,

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Speaker 1: but it helps. It helps for a jury to understand

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Speaker 1: what happened, why it happened. It also helps law enforcement

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Speaker 1: to know who to interview, who to reinterview, how to

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Speaker 1: go at somebody differently if they didn't get a confession

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Speaker 1: the first time. It'll also help, perhaps with prevention. So

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Speaker 1: when you work enough domestic violent homicides, you start to

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Speaker 1: see patterns. You start to say, wait a minute, this

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Speaker 1: guy is saying the same thing to this victim that

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Speaker 1: the past five perpetrators have said. It's almost like they

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Speaker 1: have a playbook. You've heard more than one expert say

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Speaker 1: that it's straight out of the DV playbook. And the

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Speaker 1: reason we say that is because we keep hearing it

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Speaker 1: over and over and over. So doctor Angie is an

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Speaker 1: invaluable tool to us to understand the mind of this killer.

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Speaker 1: She also has the other side of that coin. She

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Speaker 1: can help understand the victim and the victim's family, and

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Speaker 1: then she can help them get past it in some way,

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Speaker 1: help them accept it a little bit, help them use

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Speaker 1: it for good perhaps even But doctor Angie, I've seen her,

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Speaker 1: I've seen her with Melissa's mama. I've seen her with

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Speaker 1: Melissa's sister. The moment she met them, she went to

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Speaker 1: work on how to make them better, give them comfort,

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Speaker 1: give them some type of certainly not closure, but understanding

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Speaker 1: and acceptance so they could get to the next place

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Speaker 1: that they need to get to live their life better.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Angie Arnold is a psychiatrist. It went to medical

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Speaker 1: school at the University of Tennessee, where she met her husband,

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Speaker 1: who's also a doctor. She then completed her residency at

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Speaker 1: Emory University here in Atlanta, and she's got a lot

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Speaker 1: of expertise in a lot of different areas. For example,

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Speaker 1: and just to name a few, because there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of them, anxiety and depression, attention deficit disorder, work life balance,

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Speaker 1: cold cases, criminal behavior issues leading to crime, suspect and

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Speaker 1: victim centered criminological review. Doctor Arnold, Welcome to Zone seven.

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Speaker 2: Hi Cheryl, thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: You and I've had some good times we have have

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Speaker 1: it with Cheryl. I know on Melissa's case specifically, you

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Speaker 1: have been available day and night, and not just for me,

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Speaker 1: but you have reached out and tried to assist Tina

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Speaker 1: and Norma and make sure they kind of understand the

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Speaker 1: dynamics of everything that's happening. But I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: say public how much I appreciate you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Cheryl, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: If I were to look at this case like a will,

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Speaker 1: each spoke of this will leads to some type of violence.

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Speaker 1: Every person owned this will has had tragedy. There's not

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Speaker 1: one person that's escaped it. Not one. Not the parents,

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Speaker 1: not the grandparents, not the children, not the grandchildren.

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Speaker 2: Right, you know, Cheryl, What that says to me is

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Speaker 2: this family is very accustomed to this. You know, families

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Speaker 2: develop their own identities as a whole family, Okay, and

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Speaker 2: apparently this is the identity that this family has developed

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Speaker 2: for themselves. And that's going to be a very interesting

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Speaker 2: fact as we move forward in the telling of their story.

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Speaker 1: Carl basically framed this identity for himself, which by proxy

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Speaker 1: now belong to his.

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Speaker 2: Children and his wife. I mean, Cheryl, think about it.

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Speaker 2: Everybody somehow got drawn into this, didn't they. Norma his

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Speaker 2: wife got drawn into it, whether she wanted to or not.

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Speaker 2: We know that she was because of her love that

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Speaker 2: she felt for Carl. She was drawn into us. Then

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Speaker 2: there's Tina and Melissa, and I know that we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk specifically about Melissa today and how she felt

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Speaker 2: the need to perhaps get away from this family dynamic.

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Speaker 2: But then look at what she was drawn to. Look

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Speaker 2: at what she was drawn to because it was all

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Speaker 2: she knew.

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Speaker 1: Here's what's fascinating to me. As I listen to you talk.

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Speaker 1: It sounds so clear when you're describing it, but when

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Speaker 1: you're living it. I would imagine, just like any of us,

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Speaker 1: when you find your person and you say, Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: get married or let's stay together, and you know you're

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Speaker 1: it for me, that you do find yourself with some

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Speaker 1: type of loyalty, whether it's misguided, whether it's misunderstood by

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Speaker 1: other people. Because you and I both have friends, because

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Speaker 1: you and I have laughed about this before, and we

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Speaker 1: may see their marriage from an outsider and go, how

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Speaker 1: in the world could she put up with that? But

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Speaker 1: it works for them.

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Speaker 2: And they know how to make it work.

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Speaker 1: And they know how to make it work right. So

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Speaker 1: every marriage is going to be a little different, whether

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Speaker 1: it comes to money, or how they raise their children,

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Speaker 1: or how they even live. I mean, they may live

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Speaker 1: in two separate houses, they may never share money, or bills,

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Speaker 1: or they may you know, have to rely on two

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Speaker 1: signatures fevery check. But again that marriage is yours and

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Speaker 1: it works for you.

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Speaker 2: When you say, Cheryl, that people don't even people aren't

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Speaker 2: even aware of that. Maybe outsiders looking in see it

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Speaker 2: more clearly than they do. But when you've from a

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Speaker 2: certain upbringing, as Melissa did, and then you reach out

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Speaker 2: to find someone to live the rest of your life with,

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Speaker 2: just because you're reaching out to try to find something

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Speaker 2: and you think you have found it, it does not

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Speaker 2: mean that that person is going to provide for you

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Speaker 2: exactly what you were looking for. And so I think

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Speaker 2: that that's oftentimes why people are blinded in their search

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Speaker 2: for a partner in life. Because so Melissa goes out,

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Speaker 2: she's looking for someone. She considered Chris, her high school sweetheart,

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Speaker 2: but they were very very young when they first started

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Speaker 2: getting together. She was sixteen and Chris was seventeen. They

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Speaker 2: were so young, brains completely undeveloped. But Melissa was looking

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Speaker 2: for something, And when you're looking for something, you can

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Speaker 2: be so blinded about the person's misgivings, so you don't

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Speaker 2: see them for who they really are, because you're seeing

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Speaker 2: them for who you want them to be, and Chris

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Speaker 2: was her way out of her current family dynamic.

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Speaker 1: We know that Melissa was a victim of crime when

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Speaker 1: she was younger, and so in your way of talking

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Speaker 1: about her, you think she's trying to escape that because

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Speaker 1: she doesn't want to be hurt again.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and I also believe she was looking for somebody

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Speaker 2: to love her. When kids this young get into relationships

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Speaker 2: where they just feel so much love for this person,

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Speaker 2: you know, not everybody feels that way when they get

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Speaker 2: into an initial relationship because they have love from their

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Speaker 2: family of origin. But if you don't really have that

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Speaker 2: love at your core, if that didn't develop at your

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Speaker 2: core for whatever reason, then you're going to try to

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Speaker 2: find it outside of your family. Okay, But like I said,

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Speaker 2: you're looking for something. You don't really know what you're

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Speaker 2: looking for, but you're looking for love. So that gives

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Speaker 2: another person. That gives the person that you're finding it

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Speaker 2: for the opportunity to do something that we call love bombing.

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Speaker 1: I've heard you use that term because I remember the

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Speaker 1: first time you tweeted something about it, and I responded

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Speaker 1: and said, oh, that sounds fantastic, because to me, a

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Speaker 1: love bomb sounds like, oh my gosh, you know, kissing

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Speaker 1: and hugging and carrying on and gifts and happiness and

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Speaker 1: like just this blast of wonderful happening. And you were like, girl, no.

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Speaker 2: And it doesn't have to be all of that, because

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Speaker 2: the person that is getting love bombed, first of all,

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Speaker 2: has typically been a target for us. Okay, they're vulnerable

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Speaker 2: to this love bombing, okay, And the person can come in,

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Speaker 2: the love bomber can come in and just tell them

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Speaker 2: how pretty they are and how wonderful they are. They

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Speaker 2: don't maybe give them a flower, one little flower, right,

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Speaker 2: and then they've got them caught ryl Then they've got

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Speaker 2: them where they want them to be, in the palm

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Speaker 2: of their hand. Just a little bit of love bombing

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Speaker 2: does it because the person is so devoid of that

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Speaker 2: love and they're so vulnerable. Okay, so they get pulled in.

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Speaker 2: It's exciting. They've never felt this feeling before. Okay, they've

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Speaker 2: never felt this kind of love before, and so they're

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Speaker 2: they're trapped, they're brought into it. And typically the next

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Speaker 2: thing that happens is the partner that they think is

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Speaker 2: so wonderful starts to devalue them, and it can start

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Speaker 2: in very small ways at first. For example, you know

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Speaker 2: what I don't I don't like the color of your hair.

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Speaker 2: I think I think we need to I think you

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Speaker 2: need to cut your hair a little bit. Is that

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Speaker 2: shirt really the shirt that you want to wear? You

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Speaker 2: look a little frumpy in that shirt. Okay. They just

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Speaker 2: start very gently because they know what gets to this person. Okay,

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Speaker 2: they can also, so they start devaluing them, start devaluing

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Speaker 2: everything that that person appears to feel good about, and

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Speaker 2: then they jump in with another love bomb. Okay, so

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Speaker 2: let's call her the victim. The victim is so confused

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Speaker 2: by all of this because it's like playing Russian roulette

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Speaker 2: with your emotions. So what is the victim going to do.

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Speaker 2: She'll take the devaluation because she's hoping for that love

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Speaker 2: bomb again. Okay, she craves that love bomb. And this

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Speaker 2: is how someone can take a young person that's vulnerable,

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Speaker 2: away from her family of origin and entrap her in

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Speaker 2: the life that he wants her to live with him.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with Carl. First. You've read the letters.

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Speaker 1: You understand Carl as much as he's going to allow

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Speaker 1: us to understand him. Right now, Carl will tell you

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Speaker 1: that he's loyal, that his family comes first and he

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Speaker 1: would do anything to protect them and provide for them.

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Speaker 1: All he wants is to be with them.

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Speaker 2: And Carl believes that, Cheryl. Let's know, Carl is saying

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Speaker 2: that because he believes that with all of his heart.

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Speaker 2: That is Carl's truth. Okay, I believe.

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Speaker 1: He does too, There's no doubt in my mind. And

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Speaker 1: I think he has convinced himself all of his past

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Speaker 1: crimes were ultimately for his family.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I believe he has convinced himself of that. Also.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the only way he can live with himself,

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Speaker 2: don't you Quite possibly.

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Speaker 1: But again, like you have said to me, somebody's perception

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Speaker 1: is their reality, that is their truth. So if I

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Speaker 1: perceived myself, yeah, I might be a gangster. But I've

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Speaker 1: never hurt my children. I've never hurt my wife, I've

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Speaker 1: never hurt my mother. I have only protected them by

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Speaker 1: harming other people. Is what he believes, and it makes

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Speaker 1: it all okay, And it makes it all okay. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and on some level all of us were that way.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've heard you and doctor John talk even

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Speaker 1: about your medical school years. You were there for him,

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Speaker 1: You uplifted him, you supported him, you cooked for him,

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Speaker 1: you gave him comic relief. I've heard of some of

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Speaker 1: your stories where he said he was so stressed out

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Speaker 1: and then you would come on and you would say

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Speaker 1: something so funny, or you would say, oh, I just

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Speaker 1: can't do that surgery again. You know that was that

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Speaker 1: was kind of nasty, and he'd be like, but maybe

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Speaker 1: you're in medical school. I know, but I don't want

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Speaker 1: to touch that again, you know. And y'all were so cute,

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Speaker 1: but I mean, that's what it is. I've seen y'all

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Speaker 1: with your children. I know right now, if you and

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Speaker 1: I were out somewhere and somebody was fixing to talk

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Speaker 1: about little John crazy, I might have to pull you

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Speaker 1: off of them. Medical degree or not, you are a mama,

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Speaker 1: so on some level, and I want to be real

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Speaker 1: clear what I'm saying. On some level, we all understand

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Speaker 1: Carl Patten. Yes, all of us have said if anybody

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Speaker 1: were to hurt a child of mine, I would just

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Speaker 1: start burning stuff down.

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Speaker 2: What about Carl and Norma and their relationship. Let's think

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Speaker 2: about something real quickly, Cheryl, Carl and Norma again, it's

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Speaker 2: like this cycle that goes over and over again. They

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Speaker 2: met when they were fifteen years old. They had very

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Speaker 2: strong feelings with each other, and he was the love

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Speaker 2: of her life. So I want people to pay attention

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Speaker 2: to these very strong feelings that people have for their

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Speaker 2: significant other in this family. Okay, it's not a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a strong feeling. No. First of all, they're

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Speaker 2: very young, fifteen year old, so I kind of feel

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Speaker 2: like they're both kind of trying to escape something from

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Speaker 2: their families of origin. And then they're drawn together. They're

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Speaker 2: drawn together so intimately and tightly, and they feel so

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Speaker 2: strongly for each other.

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Speaker 1: Why is that.

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Speaker 2: I believe it's because there was something missing and their upbringing,

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Speaker 2: so it draws them very close. So what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Carl and Norma shared this closeness, didn't they? They shared

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Speaker 2: this bond and not only were they not going to

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Speaker 2: let anything happen to their kids, they weren't going to

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Speaker 2: let anything happen to each other. Yes, and we have

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Speaker 2: to understand that, I believe, Cheryl, we have to understand

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Speaker 2: that background when we talk about Norma and what she

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Speaker 2: eventually did for Carl.

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Speaker 1: Agreed. And here's one thing that I want everybody to know.

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Speaker 1: That's listening. You and I were at an event with

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Speaker 1: Norma not too long ago and talking about this out

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Speaker 1: loud and her hearing everything, and we don't pull any punches.

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Speaker 1: We'd tell the truth, and you know, Norma tells the truth.

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Speaker 1: And there was a one woman in the audience and

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Speaker 1: she said, well, when you divorced him, was that hard

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Speaker 1: on you? And Norma turned and looked at this woman

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Speaker 1: like are you crazy? Yeah, and Norma said, I'm married

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Speaker 1: to him today. Like it blew Norma's mind that anybody

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Speaker 1: would they divorced. She was like, where did you get

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Speaker 1: that in the story.

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Speaker 2: I think about what Norma, what she has to go through,

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Speaker 2: and like you said, and people not understanding her, and

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Speaker 2: they can't even understand that she didn't divorce this man. Cheryl,

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Speaker 2: let us share with your audience that she goes to

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Speaker 2: see him. She visits him often in jail. That is

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Speaker 2: her husband. She is committed to this man, isn't she.

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Speaker 1: She drives two hours there, spends two hours with him,

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Speaker 1: and drives two hours home.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's like having a job and he's never

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Speaker 2: getting out of jail, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if I had to put money somewhere, if

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Speaker 1: we're you know in Vegas he's never getting out.

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Speaker 2: The level of commitment she has to him is enormous.

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Speaker 2: They definitely have a bond with each other.

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Speaker 1: I think they were married twenty five years, twenty seven years,

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Speaker 1: and he's been in prison twenty She has almost been

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Speaker 1: married to him as long with him in prison as

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Speaker 1: she was married to him out of prison.

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Speaker 2: And you know, Cheryl, when we talk about this bond

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Speaker 2: that she that Norma and Carl have, I can only

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Speaker 2: imagine that that means that they also have a very

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Speaker 2: strong bond with the children that they brought on to

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Speaker 2: this earth. Well, you met Tina, I know, and I've

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Speaker 2: never seen Norma without Tina never. They're a very connected family.

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Speaker 2: Tina is always with her mother, and she feels very

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Speaker 2: strongly towards Melissa, who was her little sister. The family

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Speaker 2: had quite a bond, which again explos to us why

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Speaker 2: they've remained so connected even after what their father did,

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Speaker 2: because I think that they all believe, as he did,

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Speaker 2: that he was doing what he did to protect the family.

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Speaker 1: In Carl's letters, he'll even write and say Tina May

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Speaker 1: is a lot like me, and he says that she

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Speaker 1: can be impatient waiting for answers. She is not going

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Speaker 1: to let anybody talk bad about her people. She is

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Speaker 1: not going to accept anything negative about her mama, or

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Speaker 1: her daddy or her sister. To this day, she'll be

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Speaker 1: the first one jumping, let's get in it. If somebody's

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Speaker 1: you know, saying something rude or disrespectful or even slightly accurate,

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Speaker 1: but they put it in a very negative slant, she's

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Speaker 1: you know, but again, it's that loyalty. And even if

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Speaker 1: it's a little, not a little, even if it's misguided

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Speaker 1: or flat out wrong in this particular situation, it's not

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Speaker 1: to them.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't think it's wrong, Cheryl. I don't think

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Speaker 2: any of us should look at it as wrong because

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Speaker 2: that's their family, right, It's not even you know, it's

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Speaker 2: their family.

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Speaker 1: You're right, But I want to specifically say, loyalty to

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Speaker 1: the point you're going to help somebody throw a dead

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Speaker 1: body in the river might be a little misguided, that's true,

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Speaker 1: you know, But again, normal will tell you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't think she she didn't try to talk him

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Speaker 1: out of it. She's never told me that she didn't

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Speaker 1: try to stop him when the victims showed up. She's

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Speaker 1: never told me that She's never in any way said

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Speaker 1: we have got to go to the police. Ever, So

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Speaker 1: her loyalty for him went so far that when he

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Speaker 1: told her, I'm going to lure these two people here,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna shoot them and then we're gonna get rid

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Speaker 1: of their bodies.

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Speaker 2: Do you also feel, Cheryl, that she believed as he did,

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Speaker 2: that those people needed to be done away with, that

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Speaker 2: he was doing the right thing.

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Speaker 1: From what they have articulated, there's no doubt about it.

355
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Speaker 1: There is at least one of them for sure. He

356
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Speaker 1: was violent. He was abusive, and I mean across the board.

357
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Speaker 1: He was abusive to Carl, he was abusive to children,

358
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Speaker 1: he was abusive to nieces and nephews. He was abusive

359
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Speaker 1: to wives, and we have that documented from court records,

360
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Speaker 1: so we know that's true. That's not something they're making up.

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Speaker 2: And Cheryl, what that means is they really felt like

362
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Speaker 2: they were doing the right thing. So why wouldn't Norman

363
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Speaker 2: have gone along with him?

364
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Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about Christopher. Give me your best simation.

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Speaker 2: I think I want to start by saying that this

366
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Speaker 2: very loyal family unit never liked him and they didn't

367
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Speaker 2: want Melissa with him, so they were very protective of Melissa.

368
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Speaker 2: And then it seems as if when he and Melissa

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Speaker 2: got together, he enticed Melissa to do a lot of trouble.

370
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Speaker 2: He got her into a lot of trouble, and maybe

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Speaker 2: that was exciting to her. I'm trying to I try

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Speaker 2: to figure that out when I think about it, that

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Speaker 2: maybe that trouble was with something that exciting that she

374
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Speaker 2: had never experienced before. Maybe that's why she was drawn

375
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Speaker 2: to it. I just don't know. Because there was police involvement.

376
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Speaker 2: I mean, it was bad the stuff that they were doing,

377
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Speaker 2: wasn't it.

378
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Speaker 1: Sheryl Well, Doc, this is one thing that blows my mind.

379
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Speaker 1: I can't imagine a teenager not being petrified of Carl Patten. True,

380
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Speaker 1: and you're talking about a teenager that convinces Carl Patten's

381
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Speaker 1: daughter to sneak out and steal his car.

382
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Speaker 2: Wow.

383
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Speaker 1: And then they drove to Oklahoma. Now, let me tell you,

384
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Speaker 1: I might go down the road and steal somebody's car.

385
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Speaker 1: I'll take the preacher's car, I'll take a police officer's car,

386
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Speaker 1: but I ain't gonna steal Car Pat's car. And Christopher

387
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Speaker 1: Wolfenberger did that twice.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing. And I'll tell you something, Cheryl, as much

389
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Speaker 2: as you. I mean, I just wonder what was in

390
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 2: Melissa's mind that she went along with us, because I

391
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Speaker 2: would think that she would be every bit of scared

392
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Speaker 2: of Carl as Chris should be.

393
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Speaker 1: Well. I think it also proves what Carl says he

394
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: never abused his children, he never laid a hand on them.

395
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Speaker 1: But it seems like to me Christopher must be one arrogant.

396
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Speaker 2: So arrogant or just flat out stupid, I don't know,

397
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Speaker 2: but definitely arrogant.

398
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Speaker 1: Maybe Melissa thought, oh, my man has proven to my

399
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: dad how manly he is. I don't know. That's why

400
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: I'm asking you, because I can't.

401
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 2: I don't know, Cheryl. I've always just kind of thought

402
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: that maybe this was fun and exciting for her. I mean,

403
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: she was only fifteen. Maybe she felt constrained by her family,

404
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,239
Speaker 2: you know, maybe she felt like they kind of had

405
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Speaker 2: a thumb on her.

406
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Speaker 1: You mean, like every teenager, exactly sure, And this was

407
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: her exciting way out with this guy who was interested

408
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Speaker 1: in her, And so maybe the excitement overshadowed everything.

409
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Speaker 2: I don't know why, but I just can't shake that

410
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 2: feeling he loved bombed her. She thought, Wow, this is

411
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Speaker 2: the greatest thing ever. And you know what else? Was

412
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 2: she that different than her mother because her mother went

413
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: along with what Carl did? Right.

414
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Speaker 1: I've heard Norma say that. Norma told me, she said,

415
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Speaker 1: Tina may absolutely is Carl's daughter. She said, but Melissa,

416
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: my baby, was like me. And Norma's quiet, she's you know, reserved.

417
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Speaker 1: She is not going to walk in a room and

418
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Speaker 1: be the life of the party. You may not even

419
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: know she's there. And she of course loves her children,

420
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: loves her grandchildren, loves her mama, you know. And I

421
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: just again, this whole thing to me when you think

422
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: about it, You've got Carl who obviously committed five murders.

423
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: You've got Norma who helped him with at least two

424
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 1: of them. You've got Melissa who was murdered herself. You've

425
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: got Christopher that is really the only suspect on paper

426
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: for the murder of Melissa. And then you've got Tina,

427
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: whose father is a murderer, her mama Felony Ruhle murder,

428
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: her sister who was murdered, her brother in law who's.

429
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 2: A murderer, I mean, in all likelihood.

430
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Speaker 1: So if you think of Tina, it's like, my god,

431
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: every single person in your intimate family group and you're

432
00:26:54,200 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 1: just tight, patent family, it's touched by murder personally.

433
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 2: And you know, you've got to kind of hand it

434
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 2: to Tina that she hadn't cracked.

435
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: Tina is tough.

436
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 2: She has to be. Where's her support. It's like she's

437
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 2: the support now, she's the support system now. Isn't she

438
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: even the way she carries herself, Cheryl, don't you agree

439
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: when she walks into a room the way she carries herself,

440
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: it kind of makes her a little unapproachable. I love

441
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 2: to go up and hug people when I see them.

442
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 2: There aren't a lot of hugs going on there. She's

443
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 2: a little guarded with that.

444
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you a funny story. I called her

445
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: one day and I was like, hey, remind me of

446
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: such and such, And she went for what like immediately

447
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: and it was nothing. It wasn't an intrusive question. I

448
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: didn't ask our social security number, you know. It was

449
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: something that was related to Carl And I started laughing

450
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: and she went, why are you laughing? And I said,

451
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 1: because I can't believe you, of all people, would have

452
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: trust issues. Well, she of course fell out laughing. Of

453
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: course she has trust issues. She doesn't completely trust the police,

454
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: but she needs them on her sister's case. She doesn't

455
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: trust her brother in law, ex brother in law, whatever

456
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 1: it is. She doesn't completely trust, you know, his family.

457
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: She doesn't completely trust where her niece and nephew fall.

458
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: She doesn't completely trust me. I'm nobody to her. She

459
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: doesn't completely trust the other experts. Who are they? They

460
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: say they're not going to do this, that and the other,

461
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: but what do I know? So that's her world.

462
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: Literally, I agree with you, Cheryl, because I've always, I've

463
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: often gotten that vibe from her, and so I just

464
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: I very respectfully step back a little bit because I

465
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: don't ever want her to think that I'm coming on

466
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: too strong. I feel like it's a little bit easier

467
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: to speak to Norma, her mother, But they're both a

468
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: little guarded as they should be. Like you said, for

469
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: how long did it did? Nobody even wanted to touch

470
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: this case because they didn't feel like it was anything

471
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: to touch, And it's so complicated and it's got so many,

472
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: so many parts to it. I imagine they feel like they've

473
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: just been hanging out there by themselves. This whole time.

474
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: And then here's the other piece. You have the family

475
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: members that are victims of Karl Patten. Oh yeah, And

476
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: that's a whole nother level because all of these folks

477
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,479
Speaker 1: were intertwined at one point. They were all friends, they

478
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: were all family members. So Carl was related to Fred

479
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: and Marie, and then kind of by proxy Betty Joe,

480
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: and then you've got Joe Cleveland was his best friend.

481
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: So Joe Cleveland is in and out of the house.

482
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: Fred is in and out of the house. They all barbecue,

483
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: they all go camping, they all know each other. Tina

484
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: knew all of these people. Nobody's here to argue the

485
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: crimes of Carl Patten. But when we look at what

486
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: happened to Melissa, one thing I want you to address

487
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: that wakes me up at night sometimes and I just

488
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: have to think about it for hours and hours and

489
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: hours is her missing torso. So what does that say

490
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: to you?

491
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, I lay awake at night thinking about that. Also,

492
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: there's several things I wonder, why would someone take a torso?

493
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: What could her torso have been hiding? She's a female,

494
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: her torso could have had a baby in it, and

495
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: to me, that would be the ultimate sign of hatred

496
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: and disrespect by whoever murdered her. If there was a

497
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: baby in her torso, So that's always my primary thing

498
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: that I go to. I just wonder if she was pregnant.

499
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: My theory has been that she was pregnant, and my

500
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: hope is that the torso was buried so there was

501
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: some respect, there was some love, there was some we're

502
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: going to honor film. But if that's not the case

503
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: and it was taken to another location for another reason,

504
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: that changes this whole thing.

505
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: And do you think there's even an ounce of a

506
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: chance that the torso will ever be located?

507
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: Oh? I always think there's a chance. And here's the

508
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: reason I do. Whoever this was obviously new Action Glass,

509
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: they knew Brookline, they knew Avon Avenue. I don't think

510
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: the torso was far and I have searched for it myself.

511
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: We had trace come out there with canines. Both canines

512
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: hit on an area and they only hit on body.

513
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: Decomp We had a geographical profile done would suggest the

514
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: same thing that it's close. So I don't believe that

515
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: the killer would risk transporting the largest piece of that body,

516
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: even in a trash bag, bodily flu is going to

517
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: leak out, and so I don't think he's going to

518
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: risk getting pulled over, you know, something falling off, something

519
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: spraying on another vehicle behind him. I just don't think

520
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: he would risk that. So I think whatever was done

521
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: was done right there in a close area. It is

522
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: important to note that Christopher Wolfenberger has denied any involvement

523
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:41,479
Speaker 1: in Melissa's murder.

524
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: You know something that's just been on my mind this

525
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: whole time. So she's already got two children, right, So

526
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: apparently they it didn't bother them to have children, right

527
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: if she was pregnant, why would her husband have been

528
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 2: the one that killed her? And the only thing I

529
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: can come up with as if she was pregnant with

530
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 2: someone else's baby.

531
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: Correct, So we do know that there was an affair

532
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: that was spoken about as though it were fact.

533
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: I mean, to me, that makes sense because a man

534
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: like this Chris could never get over psychologically the fact

535
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: that his wife was pregnant with another man's child. And

536
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: I think that would be his motive for killing her.

537
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: And again, when you have a family like this and

538
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: dynamics like they were living with, it's not unusual that

539
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: you have more than one motive. That would be one.

540
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: Having a third baby when you're already struggling financially could

541
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: be another. And then the other thing that could very

542
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: well be a motive is she was due to go

543
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: to court to testify against him in a family violence

544
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: charge days before she went missing. Well, we all know

545
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: that when you've got a family violence charge and somebody's

546
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: talking about restrained in orders and knocking you out of

547
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,719
Speaker 1: the house and taking your children, that could be a

548
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: very dangerous time. And literally, I'm not at all exaggerating

549
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: it was days when they served the notice for her

550
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: to come to court. I believe she was already dead.

551
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, because she never answered it. And of

552
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: course she never showed up for court either. Wow.

553
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: And so there had been there had been some history,

554
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: of course, of violence between Melissa and Chris. Right. Also,

555
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 2: Norma and Tina didn't really weren't they weren't really allowed

556
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: to see Melissa that much and her children that much,

557
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: were they? So that means there was some isolation going on.

558
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 2: Someone was isolating Melissa from her family of origin.

559
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,959
Speaker 1: Straight out of the playbook, and that.

560
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 2: Is domestic violence. One oh one and I want your

561
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: listeners to hear that it's not something that you ignore.

562
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 2: If you're being isolated, that is a red flag all

563
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: day long.

564
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: Oh honey, keep going, tell them the truth, tell them

565
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: all of it.

566
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 2: It's a red flag. And you know, so many people

567
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: are like, oh, well, it's no big deal. You know,

568
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 2: I don't really get to see my friends anymore, and

569
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 2: that he doesn't really let me call my mom every day.

570
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: That is called isolation. And he is chipping away at

571
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 2: you so that you can be his prisoner, and that's

572
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 2: what you ultimately are. You know, another big point that

573
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 2: I want to make today on this podcast, Cheryl, I

574
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 2: want women out there to know that if you choose

575
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 2: to be in a relationship with a narcissist, okay, and

576
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 2: even if you figure out that they're a narcissist, if

577
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 2: whatever way you have chosen that you're going to be

578
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 2: in a relationship with a narcissist, you must then decide

579
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 2: that you are an object. You are an object that

580
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 2: person does not feel love for. So all the times

581
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 2: that you that you say to yourself, I don't know

582
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 2: why did he love me? Why does he talk to

583
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 2: me like this? Why does he treat me? Like this,

584
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 2: and certainly this story that we're telling today is the

585
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 2: ultimate example of a narcissist doing something to his object wife,

586
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 2: and that is to ultimately get rid of her. That's

587
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: what a narcissist does, Cheryl. Their ultimate goal is to

588
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: get rid of their object.

589
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: And here's the thing that blows my mind because this again,

590
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: if you're looking at the abuser's playbook, victims usually respond

591
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: the same way too. And this is something that drives

592
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 1: me absolutely crazy. If your mama, your best friend, your neighbor,

593
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: your doctor, your third grade teacher, if every single person

594
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: is telling you the same thing, you won't listen to them.

595
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: They're all wrong, they're all against your love. They just

596
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,439
Speaker 1: want you not to be with the person you're meant

597
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: to be with. The only person they're going to listen

598
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: to is that abuser.

599
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: Well, because he's done such a good job of laying

600
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 2: down a new foundation for you. Okay, And I'm Cheryl,

601
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, I cannot tell you how many patients

602
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: I take care of in all different walks of life

603
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 2: that are in relationships like this where they have been gaslighted.

604
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 2: So what happens is you say one thing and the

605
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 2: person goes, I don't know what you're talking about. That's

606
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 2: not true gaslighting, okay. And then you start to doubt

607
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: everything you think. You start to what, I wasn't out

608
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 2: with another woman, but I saw her name and your phone.

609
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: No you didn't, and you start to question the very

610
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 2: foundation of ever ever. Okay. But they started out with

611
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: that love bombing, which you might not have gotten from

612
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 2: anybody else. Then they devalue you a little bit, and

613
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 2: the devaluation. They do the devaluation, Cheryl, so that you

614
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 2: won't leave them, okay, because they make you feel like, well,

615
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 2: nobody else is going to love you. You can't go

616
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 2: anywhere else. And then they start to make you doubt

617
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: all of the thoughts that go through your head. And

618
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, Cheryl, this stuff works. It works. Everyone

619
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: out there that is listening to this podcast should go

620
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 2: out and read some sort of book about narcissism and

621
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: trauma bonds. Those are the two biggest things you should

622
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 2: read about before you get into any relationship. And you've

623
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: got to steer yourself away from those kinds of relationships.

624
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you it's hard, because Cheryl, I've got

625
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 2: I think half of my practice has this problem going

626
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 2: on is that crazy hard to pull women away from it.

627
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,919
Speaker 2: It's very hard, and it's you know, they'll typically stay

628
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 2: in a relationship for a good twenty years before they

629
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 2: finally just can't take it anymore. And they're old enough

630
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 2: typically to see how it's affecting their own children that

631
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 2: they have now, and then they finally get the strength

632
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: to get out of that relationship. But it can last

633
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: for years. But poor Melissa didn't have a chance, did she.

634
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: She didn't have a chance because I think her narcissist

635
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: was probably also a sociopath, which just takes it to

636
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: another level. I mean, that's why we think that he's

637
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: guilty of this.

638
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: And you know, that's the thing. Melissa had a known

639
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: killer tell her this guy's no good for you. Melissa

640
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: had a known killer whoop his behind in public once,

641
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: and still she went back to him.

642
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he made her feel some sort of law,

643
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 2: some sort of romanticized love, and she was scared of him.

644
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: I'm telling you there was probably domestic violence going on

645
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: in there, intimate partner violence, call it whatever you want,

646
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: but she was I think she was probably scared of

647
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: him too, So she had this funny back and forth

648
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 2: where she loved him and she was scared of him,

649
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: and he would he would make her fearful, but then

650
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: the next day he would do something that made her

651
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 2: feel that love again. And it's a bond. It's that's

652
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,720
Speaker 2: why it's called a trauma bond, and it's so hard

653
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 2: for people to unweave themselves from it. And then he's

654
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 2: isolating her, so the only person people she has to

655
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: talk to, she's taking care of these two babies. God

656
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: only knows if she was suffering from postpartum depression after

657
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: that also, which puts a whole nother kink in the chain. Okay,

658
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: and she can't even talk to her own mother because

659
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 2: she's been isolated from her own mother.

660
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: Doctor Arnold, do you have any advice that you want

661
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: to give right now to everybody listening?

662
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 2: You know what, Cheryl I got to tell you. I

663
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: believe that every young girl, and I take care of

664
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: a lot of young girls that are in college and whatnot.

665
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 2: You can have fun all day long, but educate yourself

666
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 2: about narcissist And if you're having a hard time with

667
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: your family of origin, go talk to a professional about it.

668
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: Don't allow somebody else to come in your life and

669
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: try to fix that for you because there's a reason

670
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 2: that you're having that trouble and get to the root

671
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 2: of what that trouble is, okay, and the best way

672
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: to do that is to talk to a good therapist

673
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: about that. Do that for yourself. You deserve that, and

674
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: while you're doing it, educate yourself on narcissistic abuse and

675
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 2: narcissistic trauma. It's the best thing I believe that young

676
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 2: women can do for themselves to prevent a horrific outcome

677
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: like Melissa suffered.

678
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: Doctor Arnold, thank you so much for being with us,

679
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: and thank you for your advice, and thank you for

680
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 1: the way you take care of so many people.

681
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: Thank you, Cheryl.

682
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone Heaven the way I always

683
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 1: do with a quote, and this comes from Doctor Oz

684
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: who had me on his show twice for two different

685
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: cold cases, and after airing on his show, both were solved.

686
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 1: And Doctor Oz says, and I quote, people change based

687
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: on what they feel more than what they know, and

688
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: I don't think that could be any more accurate than

689
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: talking about Melissa Wolfenberger. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is

690
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: one seven