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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu edition. So

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Speaker 1: few stories have captivated the public quite like the rise, fall,

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Speaker 1: and enduring legacy of Michael Jackson. From record breaking success

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Speaker 1: and global fame to criminal allegations, a highly publicized trial,

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Speaker 1: and a verdict that continues to divide public opinion, the

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Speaker 1: story remains one of the most debated chapters in entertainment history.

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Speaker 1: So there is a new three part Netflix documentary, Michael

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Speaker 1: Jackson The Verdict, and it revisits one of the most

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Speaker 1: controversial and closely watched celebrity trials in modern history. It's interesting, you, guys,

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Speaker 1: that The Verdict has come out right around the same

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Speaker 1: time as Michael the movie has come out. And I've

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Speaker 1: seen both and they are very, very different. More than

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Speaker 1: twenty years after the allegations and nearly two decades after

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson was acquitted on all charges, questions surrounding the case,

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Speaker 1: the trial, the media coverage, and Jackson's legacy continue to

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Speaker 1: spark debate around the world, whether you followed the case

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Speaker 1: in real time like I did, or know it only

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Speaker 1: through the headlines and documentaries. It's a story that raises

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Speaker 1: difficult questions about fame, media, justice, and public perception. So

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Speaker 1: today we are talking to an investigative journalist. Her name

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Speaker 1: is Diane Diamond, and she spent years on this, you guys,

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Speaker 1: including like early coverage. She was the first one to

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Speaker 1: cover Michael Jackson and sexual sexual abuse allegations, so she

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Speaker 1: uncovered them. She's written books on it. She's fascinating, she's interesting,

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Speaker 1: and she knows more than almost anyone about all of this.

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Speaker 1: So I'm excited to talk to her, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to bring her in. Hi, Diane, Hi, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I thank you so much for joining us here on

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Speaker 1: Killer Thriller. We really appreciate it, my pleasure. I was

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Speaker 1: mesmerized by this documentary. I was spell bound, and I

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Speaker 1: see a lot of true crime, and maybe because I

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Speaker 1: feel like it all happened in my lifetime and I

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Speaker 1: was privy to, you know, the trial or the stardom.

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Speaker 1: You know, a very strange thing with this particular documentary

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Speaker 1: because having been, you know, a kid who grew up

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Speaker 1: with not only Michael Jackson the entertainer, but Michael Jackson

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Speaker 1: who was accused of such horrific crimes. I just I

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Speaker 1: had so many different feelings about it and this was.

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Speaker 1: It was very strange because it felt to me like

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Speaker 1: it sort of touched on all of them. And every

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Speaker 1: time I was convinced, and I'm sure that I know

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Speaker 1: that I'm not alone in this, but I was convinced

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Speaker 1: one way all of a sudden. Usually I was convinced

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Speaker 1: the prosecution that they got him, the defense would swoop

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Speaker 1: in and everything turned around in a minute. It was

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Speaker 1: such a strange and I can only imagine what it

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Speaker 1: was like in person and live. And I'm sure I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Do you still think about it to this day?

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Speaker 1: But obviously you wrote a book on it, You've been

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Speaker 1: involved in a documentary, You're still thinking about it, But

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Speaker 1: does it haunt you?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, it amazes me actually that people are

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Speaker 2: still interested in the story that I broke in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety three and then again in two thousand and three

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Speaker 2: when there was a second boy. It's just been so

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Speaker 2: many years. But it was Michael Jackson, you know, everybody.

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Speaker 2: That's what keeps it alive. Not what I did, not

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Speaker 2: the books I wrote, not you know any of that.

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Speaker 2: It's his name and his celebrity and his music that

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Speaker 2: lives on and on. And yeah, to answer your question,

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Speaker 2: It was bizarre in that courtroom every day. I mean,

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Speaker 2: just to see him walk in and watch the jury,

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Speaker 2: you know, drool over, Oh my god, there he is.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember when they were tapping. They were saying

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Speaker 1: that they were tapping their feet when they were watching

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Speaker 1: they were showing what was it.

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Speaker 2: They were showing the documentary that started the whole criminal trial.

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Speaker 1: The Martin b Cher Martin, and they were showing and

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Speaker 1: the jury was they were they were literally tapping their

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Speaker 1: feet to the music. Yes, yes, how did you How

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Speaker 1: did you become involved in this documentary? I mean, I please,

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Speaker 1: don't do all misunderstand. I know you've been involved in

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Speaker 1: this from the very beginning. Did they come to you?

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Speaker 1: You find out it was that they were you tell me.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you. I was sort of like done with Michaels. Yeah, okay, Yes,

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Speaker 2: I have a whole body of work on different topics

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Speaker 2: and different crime stories and different crime and justice issues.

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Speaker 2: I just another book come out last year on a

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Speaker 2: completely different topic, and I was really done with talking

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Speaker 2: about Michael Jackson. Except nobody ever explored the trial, and

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Speaker 2: there were no cameras in that courtroom, as you know,

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Speaker 2: and so I had always been fascinated with people who'd

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Speaker 2: come up to me over the years and they'd say something,

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Speaker 2: I'd think, but you weren't in the courtroom. And so

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Speaker 2: when this production company out of the UK came to

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Speaker 2: me and said we want to focus on the trial.

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Speaker 2: I had always wanted to put the trial on trial

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Speaker 2: because there were lots of things that happened in that

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Speaker 2: courtroom I don't think the public realized, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of things that were not allowed to be presented to

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Speaker 2: the jury by the judge, and I just thought it

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Speaker 2: all needed explaining, and so that's really what got me.

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Speaker 2: I sort of roped me back in to exploring this

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Speaker 2: topic again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you were such an integral part of

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Speaker 1: obviously of what happened with mikel and exposing you know,

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Speaker 1: what was going on, but also just this documentary. I

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Speaker 1: can't it feels like it was as much about you

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Speaker 1: and your role in it as anyone.

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Speaker 2: I was kind of shocked by that. Actually, when I

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Speaker 2: sat at it, I thought, man, I knew that they

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Speaker 2: were here at my house interviewing me, looking at my files,

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Speaker 2: looking at the evidence and my notebooks and whatnot for

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Speaker 2: four days, but I didn't realize they're going to do

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Speaker 2: so much of me.

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Speaker 1: It was only four days.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, four days of filming here in my house, and

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Speaker 2: you know, three and four cameras, and I have an

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Speaker 2: upstairs downstairs. It was like we were a soundstake for

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Speaker 2: a while.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you are the foremost right expert though on

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Speaker 1: all of this, at least that is what I saw

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Speaker 1: when I watched the documentary, and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: were obviously involved. There were a lot of attorneys involved, journalists.

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Speaker 1: You're sort of the go to.

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Speaker 2: Well. I think that's because I first broke the story

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Speaker 2: in ninety broke the story worked for the TV show

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Speaker 2: hard Copy at the time, the tabloid TV show, But

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Speaker 2: we were way out in front on that story. I

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Speaker 2: covered it solid for a year, well maybe not quite

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Speaker 2: a year, and then this other little case called the O. J.

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Speaker 2: Simpson murder came up, so I got a little diverted.

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Speaker 2: But over the years, I've just always stayed in touch

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Speaker 2: with my sources, stayed interested in the topic, and have

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Speaker 2: continuously written about it, either in a syndicated column or

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Speaker 2: in a book or you know, so I sort of

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Speaker 2: have distinction of being the one all the fans screamed

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Speaker 2: at during the trial, and I still get hate mail.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've got for since the internet came up.

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Speaker 2: There was no internet in nineteen ninety three, which was yay.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was also the drama of it, right, very

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Speaker 1: and it felt although obviously the cameras were in the

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Speaker 1: courtroom for OJ, but the drama around it, it was

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Speaker 1: there was such a story there, right, this was real stuff,

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Speaker 1: These are real kids, these are real crimes. Right, But

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Speaker 1: it felt like a drama in the same way that

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Speaker 1: watching OJ did. Right, although we didn't get to see

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Speaker 1: this and that we didn't get see the court in

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Speaker 1: real time. How do you feel like the documentary did

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Speaker 1: in terms of representing what really went down?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I think it was great. I thought it was great.

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Speaker 2: Was it complete? No?

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Speaker 1: What was missing?

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Speaker 2: Netflix has this rule that documentaries are three episodes long.

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Speaker 2: I think they could have made six episodes.

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Speaker 1: What important? What do you think was the most important

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Speaker 1: thing that's missing?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think some context was missing. You know, I'll

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Speaker 2: just quickly tell you. In that courtroom you said your

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Speaker 2: mind kept changing and changing as you heard testimony.

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Speaker 1: And I feel guilty, by the way, don't think that

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Speaker 1: I don't don't think that. I don't feel guilty saying.

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Speaker 2: That oh no, no, no, I understand you, not.

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Speaker 1: Just to you in general, like to be you know,

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Speaker 1: to watch these attorneys and all of a sudden, I said, no,

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Speaker 1: you're so roped into a testimony and then it's discredited

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well that's what a good defense attorney is supposed

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Speaker 2: to do.

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Speaker 1: Until they were good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this family was not pristine. They had a

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Speaker 2: background of domestic abuse, of shoplifting, of you know, all

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Speaker 2: sorts of things. And Mesio was a master at making

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Speaker 2: this family look like money grubbers, like they were out

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Speaker 2: to get everybody's money and they were liars.

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Speaker 1: Well, the documentary didn't like we're talking about the J. C.

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Speaker 1: Penny when they see J C. Penny. I didn't see

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Speaker 1: that seemed very much portrayed to me even in the

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Speaker 1: in the documentary as they were sort of like that. Right. Well,

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Speaker 1: the way the story was told.

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Speaker 2: What wasn't the context I'm talking about that could have

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Speaker 2: added curious episodes to this is this family, the Arviso family,

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Speaker 2: which was the criminal trial it was all about. Gavin

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Speaker 2: Arvizo is the alleged victim. They came from a family

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Speaker 2: where the father, David was a in my opinion, a monster.

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Speaker 2: He just I mean he would take the boys into

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Speaker 2: J C. Pennies to buy their school uniforms and say, okay,

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Speaker 2: pick them up, pick them up right, run outside, and

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Speaker 2: they would because if they defied their father they would

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Speaker 2: have been beaten corse. So and they're eight and nine

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Speaker 2: years old. They do what their dad tells him to do.

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Speaker 2: And so it came to pass in the courtroom that

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Speaker 2: look at this family, they go around acting like gypsies.

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Speaker 2: Well they did when David was in the picture, but

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Speaker 2: the mother had gotten rid of David and actually moved

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Speaker 2: on to somebody else. And so why didn't they call

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Speaker 2: David Arviso? I mean, David Arviso was critical to what happened,

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Speaker 2: but the court never hear from him.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's so interesting because the way that I it

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Speaker 1: was presented to me, it was the mother who, at

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Speaker 1: least not I'm not talking about it even with Michael,

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Speaker 1: but in terms of the J. C. Penny incident, was

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Speaker 1: looking for money, right, looking for I don't know, a

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Speaker 1: quick payout, and.

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Speaker 2: So that's what it looked like to the journey. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but it was the father who when they got the

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Speaker 2: payout from J c. Pennies father said, don't tell welfare.

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Speaker 2: We'll just keep getting welfare, and so that came back

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Speaker 2: to bite the mother because David's nowhere to be found

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Speaker 2: in the corporate Yeah. Of course, another thing, the prosecution

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Speaker 2: wanted to put forth an expert to talk about women

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Speaker 2: who've gone through years of domestic abuse and how do

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Speaker 2: they because Gavin Arvizo's mother, you know, God bless her

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Speaker 2: on the stand. She's on the stand for five days.

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Speaker 2: She looked different every day. Wee be and then defiant, mad,

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Speaker 2: and you know, she just came off not credible, strange,

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Speaker 2: not credible. And so had the jury heard from this

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Speaker 2: domestic abuse survivor, her behavior might have become more understandable.

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Speaker 1: Got it.

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Speaker 2: These are the kind of things that were not included

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Speaker 2: in the trial that I wish had been.

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Speaker 1: And there was so much that was even like when

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Speaker 1: they brought in Michael Jackson's ex wife, Debbie Rowe, right,

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Speaker 1: and the prosecution brought her in, Yes.

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Speaker 2: He was going to be let me tell you what

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Speaker 2: she was going to say. She was going to say

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Speaker 2: that Michael Jackson was a drug addict and that she

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Speaker 2: had injected him with drugs because she was a nurse

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Speaker 2: for his dermatologist. She was going to talk about how

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Speaker 2: he forbade her to see her children, that she had

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Speaker 2: been duped into giving up custody. And when she got

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Speaker 2: to the standard dajer for she, I mean, it wasn't

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Speaker 2: a big courtroom, she looked over at Michael and she collapsed.

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Speaker 2: She just said physically physically no, but I mean she

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Speaker 2: walked in like this and then spotted him and then

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Speaker 2: a sort of cowd and said he was a great

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Speaker 2: dad and no problem. And the prosecution's jaws just dropped

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Speaker 2: to them.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that she was being brought in for

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Speaker 1: that purpose? Did you were you watching that in real

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Speaker 1: time knowing that she was going to talk about how

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Speaker 1: he's a drug addict? Wow?

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Speaker 2: And I saw her flip right there, flip flop like

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Speaker 2: a trout on a pier.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so crazy.

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Speaker 2: Let me just tell you really quick. So this jury here,

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Speaker 2: this is who the prosecution brings up, and this is

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Speaker 2: Had there been more episodes, maybe a concise wrap up

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Speaker 2: would have given this summary. The jury heard from the

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Speaker 2: very first case nineteen ninety three was Jordie Chandler. That

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Speaker 2: was the little boy. He did not testify, but his

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Speaker 2: mother did, and she tearfully testified about how she'd been

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Speaker 2: duped into allowing her son to sleep with Michael Jackson

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Speaker 2: by myel Jackson. We're a family. I love you, Nothing

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Speaker 2: bad is going to happen. I act like his father

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Speaker 2: in a blah blah. So she tells that story, and oh,

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Speaker 2: by the way, she gets Cardia bracelets and free trips

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Speaker 2: to Monaco and shopping spreees because there is this relationship.

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Speaker 2: They heard from a maid who said she saw Michael

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Speaker 2: Jackson in the shower with eleven year old boy naked. Showering,

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Speaker 2: she would fish out little boys underwear from the jacuzzi

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Speaker 2: when she cleaned them out, various pairs of the underwear.

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Speaker 2: Another maid, Blanca Froncia, testified her son had been sexually

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Speaker 2: molested by Michael Jackson, and then her son testified, he's

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Speaker 2: now a grown man, young man, a youth pastor. All

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Speaker 2: these years later, he breaks down in tears crying about

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Speaker 2: what happened to him. They'd heard from a security guard,

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Speaker 2: Ralph Chacone, who said, I surveyed Neverland at night, that

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Speaker 2: was my patrol, and I saw Michael Jackson performing oral

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Speaker 2: sex on a twelve year old boy in the showers

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Speaker 2: by the swimming pool. Now, this is what the jury heard.

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Speaker 1: So the security guard, the mother they there was was

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Speaker 1: there concern that they were going to be accessories? Was

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Speaker 1: there something? In other words, once they testified, like the

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Speaker 1: security guard never went to the cops, how do you

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Speaker 1: yet think it he did go oh, okay, way back

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Speaker 1: when maybe I'm not remembering, Okay, but.

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Speaker 2: The little boy he saw was Jordan Chandler. Okay, Jordan

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Speaker 2: Chandler's family got more than twenty million dollars to shut

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Speaker 2: up and go got it right?

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Speaker 1: No, I do not right? Okay, okay, got it?

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Speaker 2: So but the point, the point is I was on

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Speaker 2: a pro the other night with Mark Geregus, Michael Jackson's

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Speaker 2: former attorney, who said, yeah, but all those other people

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Speaker 2: that wasn't the Gavin Arbizel boy, And that was what

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Speaker 2: the criminal trial was about. Wrong. The judge did allow

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Speaker 2: in what's called eleven ZHO eight testimony past bad acts.

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Speaker 2: So this was the past bad acts of Michael Jackson

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Speaker 2: as alleged by the prosecution. It was Germaine testimony. So,

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Speaker 2: but every single witness that I just ascribed to you

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Speaker 2: under cross examination by the very majestic Tom Mezzerro big

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Speaker 2: huge guy looks like the Quaker oats guy you know

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Speaker 2: with the big white hair, now is very good. He

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Speaker 2: made them all out to be money grubbers. Well, how

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Speaker 2: come you didn't go to the police. Well, and I

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Speaker 2: asked each and every one of them when I put

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Speaker 2: them on camera years ago, and they all said, who

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Speaker 2: would have believed me against Michael Jackson? I'm just a

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Speaker 2: made I mean I had interviewed long ago wardrobe mistresses

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Speaker 2: and limo drivers and chefs and people in the music industry,

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Speaker 2: people who worked in his music office, MJJ Productions. They

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Speaker 2: all said to me, I never came forward because first

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Speaker 2: of all, I'd lose my job and I need my job,

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Speaker 2: and who would believe me?

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Speaker 1: You know, I understand every single thing you're saying. I

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Speaker 1: can see it. I wonder to myself a mother, and

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Speaker 1: I know this is a question that obviously everyone asks

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Speaker 1: and people love to judge, although so do I in

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Speaker 1: this instance, how does a mother for Cardier bracelets allow

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Speaker 1: that to happen? And then that shows doubt? I think

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Speaker 1: maybe this happened, you tell me in the minds of

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Speaker 1: the jury, Like if a mother really knew this would

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Speaker 1: happen was happening. Would a mother really you know, be

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Speaker 1: a would a mother would it be possible to bribe

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Speaker 1: a mother, you know? And she would then allow her

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Speaker 1: son to be molested? It seems very far fetched.

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Speaker 2: Well, but they don't. They don't believe their son is

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Speaker 2: being molested because the perpetrator. Right, everything's okay.

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Speaker 1: Right, But they obviously didn't want it. But they didn't

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Speaker 1: want it to happen.

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Speaker 2: The kid who's getting all this attention and getting to

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Speaker 2: go to wonderful places in this instance, neverland.

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Speaker 1: Yes, agreed. She's saying that she had to be convinced.

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Speaker 1: It's not that she said she obviously our instincts were

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Speaker 1: this is this is weird.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't brother, I'm a light.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, and that's the thing, and I think

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Speaker 1: part of that right, And I'm not saying I don't

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Speaker 1: know anything. I don't I hate, I don't know any

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Speaker 1: her full story. I don't know where she comes from.

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Speaker 1: But I'm just trying to think in terms of the jury. Right, So, hmm,

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Speaker 1: would the mother was the mother really suspecting anything, like,

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Speaker 1: why would she allow that? And while she was bribed,

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Speaker 1: even if she was bribe. There's all of this stuff, right.

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Speaker 1: That is so it's so difficult because there's just it

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Speaker 1: feels to me they could the defense could make anything

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Speaker 1: seem murky bingo, even bringing in McAuley culkin. You know,

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Speaker 1: I mean that here's another star. It's not. He's not

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Speaker 1: just a kid. He is the home alone kid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well there was there was a chef who testified

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Speaker 2: at the trial, and I had interviewed him years ago

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Speaker 2: that he saw Michael Jackson fondling mcaulay culkin. Well, the

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Speaker 2: kid was playing a a what do you call.

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Speaker 1: The video game or whatever like that, Yeah, some sort

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Speaker 1: of game atari.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember the name of it. Anyway, they were

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Speaker 2: in the game room and he came to deliver French

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Speaker 2: fries in the middle of the night, and there was

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Speaker 2: Michael with his hands in the kid's pants. Well, Meserel said,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute. Didn't you first say the hands were

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Speaker 2: over the pants and when now suddenly they're in the pants,

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Speaker 2: and you know, he just again was very good. Can

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Speaker 2: I say? And I don't mean to keep talking about

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Speaker 2: my book, but I fully explain in this book, be

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Speaker 2: careful who you love. Inside the Michael Jackson case, there's

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Speaker 2: a chapter in here. I think it's like chapter eight

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Speaker 2: where I interviewed the special agent with the FBI. Ken

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Speaker 2: Lanning is his name. This is a guy who wrote

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Speaker 2: the profile of a pedophile for the bureau years ago.

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Speaker 2: This is what you look for, and he explained to me.

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Speaker 2: And this will tell you why June Chandler Schwartz agreed

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Speaker 2: to all of this. Pedophiles are the most personable, fun loving, fabulous, crafty,

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Speaker 2: cunning criminals you'll ever meet.

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Speaker 1: Gives me chills.

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Speaker 2: That's just because they seduce the parent first. They seduce

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Speaker 2: the parent of most of almost on the time, of

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Speaker 2: a dysfunctional family, a broken family, a divorced family, a

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Speaker 2: family like the Arvizos, whether it's domestic abuse, and the

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Speaker 2: kid is craving attention, and he says to the mother,

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Speaker 2: you're busy, you're a single mother. I'll take them camping,

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Speaker 2: I'll take them to the movies tonight. And the mother's like, oh, phew,

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Speaker 2: I finally get a moment to myself. I could take

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Speaker 2: a bath or whatever. And they're so believed that someone

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Speaker 2: has taken an interest in their son that they say

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Speaker 2: yes when they shouldn't say yes. And they don't see

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Speaker 2: a pattern, because the kid comes home happy. I had

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Speaker 2: ice cream, I got a toy. We went to this

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Speaker 2: fabulous arcade place. Wow, mom, I had such a great time.

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Speaker 2: And so when that perpetuates, according to Ken Lanning, this

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Speaker 2: is what a pedophile seeks out. A preferential pedophile goes

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Speaker 2: for a certain type. If you like a little boy

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Speaker 2: and there's a beautiful woman, you'll go for that little

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Speaker 2: boy every time, because you are a preferential pedophile. And

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Speaker 2: so your life, according to Ken Lanning, is hunting, hunting

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Speaker 2: the right family, hunting the right parent that you can

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Speaker 2: seduce first to get to your child.

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Speaker 1: Did he think that Michael Jackson fit that bill exactly?

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Speaker 2: Yes, And he was scheduled to testify at the trial.

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Speaker 2: But they never called him. Prosecution never called him for

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Speaker 2: some reason.

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Speaker 1: I mean, well, why would the prosecution call him the

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Speaker 1: defense would? I mean, excuse me, I'm sorry, of course,

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Speaker 1: the prosecution never called him. Why.

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Speaker 2: I wonder, you know, I'm going to be honest with you.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember if they just decided it wasn't worth

387
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Speaker 2: the expense flying him to California, or if the judge

388
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Speaker 2: said no, you can't do that. I'd have to go back. No,

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Speaker 2: that's what all my notebooks, I'd have to go look

390
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Speaker 2: through my note.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine for you, knowing what you knew, showing up,

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Speaker 1: seeing the fans, having them direct some of their anger

393
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Speaker 1: at you, obviously maybe a lot of their anger at youth.

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Speaker 1: They still do. So that's scary in and of itself, right,

395
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Speaker 1: and feeling so passionately even knowing the families. How hard

396
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Speaker 1: this must have been the day in and the day out.

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Speaker 1: What I mean watching it. I was exhausted after each episode.

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Speaker 1: It's exhausting to watch, right, because it takes you up

399
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Speaker 1: here and down there and back around again. I can

400
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Speaker 1: imagine for someone who's who'd invested so much time in

401
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Speaker 1: breaking a case, and how horrifying it must have been

402
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Speaker 1: for you.

403
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Speaker 2: It wasn't horrifying. It was fascinating really to see what

404
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 2: I'd first reported in ninety three, and then the second

405
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Speaker 2: boy in two thousand and three, and now that second.

406
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Speaker 1: Boy frustrating, Maybe not horrifying, frustrating.

407
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Speaker 2: It was exhausting, I have to tell you, yeah, because

408
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Speaker 2: at the same time I was working for Court TV.

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Speaker 2: At the time, I was also contracted to The Today Show,

410
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Speaker 2: which is seven o'clock in the east but for am

411
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Speaker 2: in the West. Yes, and I was finishing writing in

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Speaker 2: the book. So yeah, it was pretty exhausting. But I

413
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Speaker 2: I'm a curious type and I I wanted to see

414
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Speaker 2: it through, you know, I wanted to see it through.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I get that. It's it doesn't escape me,

416
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Speaker 1: and I know it doesn't escape you. The irony of Michael.

417
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Speaker 1: The movie being released recently, and I did not watch

418
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Speaker 1: it before I watched the verdict. But I did watch

419
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Speaker 1: it before we said, so I did watch it a

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Speaker 1: few nights ago. Wow, did you see it?

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Speaker 2: I did not see the biopic and I don't plan to.

422
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: I don't think suggest that.

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Speaker 1: I would not suggest that you did.

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Speaker 2: But but that said, he was a mega talent, I know,

425
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Speaker 2: but star I love the music. I still I was

426
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: in Macy's the other day in a dressing room and

427
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson song came on. It was like, what, I

428
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Speaker 2: can't escape it. The music's fabulous. He was a wonderful

429
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Speaker 2: talented guy.

430
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Speaker 1: But I BELI its flawed, certainly. But in you know,

431
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: in the movie it talks about how he was abused

432
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Speaker 1: by his father.

433
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: I believe, and I believe that's true.

434
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: Right, and you know that's it was heartbreaking to watch

435
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: and it's just again it makes everything is so complicated

436
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: with this case, right, and it just it's it it

437
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: It hurts. It hurts the brain. It hurts the head,

438
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: just to like try to consider all the different aspects

439
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: of this. And his popularity is now it seems like

440
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,239
Speaker 1: it is on the incline, like he is. People are

441
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: talking about Michael Jackson again, kids are right. How is

442
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 1: that for you? Is that frustrating?

443
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 2: No? No, I understand it, because you know, if you

444
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 2: get online and I try not to, but things get

445
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: reported back to me. The fans have taken it upon

446
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 2: themselves to promote the biopic Michael the Bile Pick, and

447
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 2: as part of that, they program their Spotify's to play

448
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: his music twenty four to seven, even while they're sleeping,

449
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 2: they just play his music and play his music. So

450
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 2: now Michael Jackson's music is at the top of the

451
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 2: charts because the fans everywhere are promoting it through Spotify

452
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: and other platforms, and so he's a megastar again. And

453
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: the you know, the thing.

454
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: Made a billion dollars hard for you. I mean you

455
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: so much of your life has been spent on this

456
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: and on trying to get him to do the right

457
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: thing and have the truth come out.

458
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 2: That's not frustrating, it it's bewildering to me that these fans,

459
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 2: and believe me, I get the hate mail even to

460
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 2: this day, they are just so dead sure that he

461
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 2: is such an icon that he never ever, ever could

462
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 2: have done it.

463
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 1: When they don't, you are, by the way, you are

464
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: dead sure that he did well.

465
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: In my book, I let the reader decide. I just

466
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,239
Speaker 2: chronologically tell you the facts and what I turned up,

467
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: and I let the reader decide.

468
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 1: But do you not like to talk about how you

469
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 1: feel about it?

470
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 2: No, because I'm I'm you know who cares what I feel?

471
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: I do?

472
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: I didn't ask the question in Good Friez.

473
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: Please.

474
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: Yes, I believe he was one of the most prolific,

475
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 2: in your face pedophiles the United States has ever known.

476
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: There was one in Britain called Jimmy Saville was Jimmy

477
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,479
Speaker 2: Saville was all about children's charities and he was a

478
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: fabulous guy. Well in the meantime he was molesting them.

479
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: And so if you go back to Agent Ken Lanning,

480
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: they're crafty, they're cunning, they're personable, they're pillars of the community.

481
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 2: Many times they're tax paying, they go to church.

482
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: Why is that? Why does that? Why would a pedophile

483
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: be charming to get.

484
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 2: What they want? A bank robber goes in cases out

485
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: of bank, sees when everybody comes and goes, and how

486
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 2: many employees there are, and how many tellers there are,

487
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: and where are the cameras in ease case and the joint.

488
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 2: A pedophile hunts his prey and craftily make sure they

489
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: can get it by going through the parents first. Most

490
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 2: of the time, you know it's a Pedophiles don't hang

491
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: around in trench coats with no underwear on around a playground.

492
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: That's not the way it works. Just as.

493
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: There were so many times though I thought, okay, even

494
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: though I obviously I knew the outcome. But watching, for instance,

495
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: the Black Book of Porn or what was it was

496
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: a black book or it was a black where all

497
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: his porn magazine like and the envelope where all of

498
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: his magazines were, and there was a child pornography, and

499
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: I thought, well, that's it. That seems closed and shut.

500
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: How do you get around that?

501
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: You're talking about? One of the things cops do is

502
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: say to the boy, okay, tell us everything where you

503
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: saw porn? Where's the porn? They find it where the

504
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: case says, So that goes to the child's veracity. Okay,

505
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: And they did find born designed to groom a kid. Hey,

506
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: look at this, Look at her? Ooh, look at him. Oh,

507
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: look at this couple's doing. And he desensitizes a child

508
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,239
Speaker 2: so that a they can talk about sex with the

509
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: purp and then experiment with the pet purp. Now what

510
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: they found. And I actually got a copy of these

511
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: two books I think you're talking about. They're big coffee

512
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,959
Speaker 2: table books. I should have dug them out to show you,

513
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: but I don't think you really want to see them.

514
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: They're big coffee table books of naked children. It was

515
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 2: described in court as an art book glorifying the human form.

516
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 2: That's what tom Mesrov said to the jury. It's like,

517
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: you know, glorified of the photography, just to show the

518
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 2: beautiful human form. Okay, Well, then why is that kid

519
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 2: displayed open naked licking a banana or an ice cream cone?

520
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: Diane, That's what I thought, Like, I don't get it.

521
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: So how even the I know that he was he's

522
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,239
Speaker 1: a brilliant defense attorney. How do you get around that.

523
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 2: Well, they said that Michael didn't Michael didn't buy those books.

524
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: Today, if somebody had that in their hall, you'd be

525
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: swooped up and arrested. That would be it.

526
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: Michael didn't, I spoke. Somebody sent them to him, that

527
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: was the defense. Somebody sent him the books, you know,

528
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: fans send him all sorts of things.

529
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, it's maddening justin.

530
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: You know, if you realize you brought up the fact

531
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 2: that the biopic showed Michael Jackson was abused by his father.

532
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: I got many many calls back in nineteen ninety three

533
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: from people in Gary, Indiana telling me exactly that not

534
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: only that, but worse that old Joe took the boys

535
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: on the Chitlin Circle circuit the nightclubs way back when

536
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 2: to get them to perform, and he would pass off

537
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 2: Michael to the owners of the nightclubs. Now, I'm telling

538
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: you that I could never prove that allegation. I could

539
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: never prove that passed you. Well, I tried, Don't you

540
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 2: think I didn't try. Some of the calls I got

541
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: on this were coming from prison. So am I going

542
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 2: to believe a prisoner? Who's what I mean? Why is

543
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: he telling me that anyway, it was. There was a report,

544
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: it's in the book that Rebe, the oldest daughter, had

545
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: been raped by her father, filed a police report with

546
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,959
Speaker 2: the Gary, Indiana Police Department. I went to get it. Oh,

547
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: it no longer exists. Sorry. So if you understand that

548
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: child molesting affects a child for the rest of their life,

549
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: and a molested child frequently goes on to molest other children,

550
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: it's just a cycle. It's a terrible cycle. It can

551
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: be broken. The aid's son who testified, for example, he

552
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: was a clean cut kid, he'd just gotten married, he

553
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: was a youth pastor, he had faced car engines. I mean,

554
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: I don't think he's going to go on to molests children.

555
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: But it was a one or two time, three time

556
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 2: thing with Jackson and him for Michael, how many times

557
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: if it happened, how many times did it happen with

558
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: his father or with nightclub owners? And so no wonder

559
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: he didn't have a childhood. He didn't have a childhood.

560
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: They show him in the movie and you may have

561
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: already heard this, but a lot about him and his

562
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: love of animals and his childlike behavior. Obviously, even as

563
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: he grew into a man, the fear of his father

564
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: and all of that. And I remember at one point,

565
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: not recently, but thinking, well, he is just a child himself,

566
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: you know, and he was not just a child himself.

567
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: In fact, he was a grown man. But that I

568
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: feel like that his behavior, especially in if you watch

569
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: the movie, it really is the behavior of a child

570
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: who is scared of daddy and who just wants to

571
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: be loved by giraffes, monkeys, snakes, fans, fans, fans. So

572
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: that has always been you know, the other side of

573
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: this is, how could he be a child molester? He's

574
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: a child. I feel like that is how he's represented

575
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: many times.

576
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: But he's a grown man, and he is a grown

577
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 2: man who an empire.

578
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: But do you feel like that that's an angle that's

579
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: been used.

580
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, but two things can be true. You can be

581
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: a damaged person and stuck in childhood and have a

582
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: little voice like this like he had when he grunted

583
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 2: at me outside the court. He didn't have a little voice.

584
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: Let me tell you. He had a big voice, really,

585
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 2: And you can see him in the Netflix documentary turn

586
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 2: Around and say I can't answer questions coming out of court,

587
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: and he's got a big voice, you know, so to him.

588
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: So you think you think that voice was an affectation.

589
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was a performance. I think his

590
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: father beat that into him. They all talked like that.

591
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: All of the Jackson's have that little voice. Yeah, it's performative,

592
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 2: you know. And when he was eleven years old, his

593
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 2: father made him say he was eight years old, right,

594
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: so that he could be you know, perpetually young.

595
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: Right.

596
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: So you know you learn things in life that you

597
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 2: carry into adulthood. I mean that's just a fact.

598
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: Yes.

599
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 2: Anyway, Look, I have a I have a great I

600
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: always had great empathy for Michael Jackson. He did not

601
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 2: have a normal life. He was the family wa he

602
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 2: was the talent. The rest of them were like, Okay,

603
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 2: you can harmonize, but I'm a guy who writes music

604
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 2: and can perform and make a video and do thriller.

605
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: And you know, he was a pitiable person. But I

606
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 2: also think he was his own worst enemy.

607
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 1: Amazing. I find it so interesting that you have empathy

608
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: for Michael Jackson. And we talked to a lot of

609
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: people here on Killer Thriller. We talk to people who

610
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: have been victimized, people that have directed documentaries, people who

611
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,959
Speaker 1: have who are the sisters of and but I don't

612
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 1: often hear someone you have made it clear what you believe,

613
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: you know Michael Jackson did and who he was, and

614
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: yet you're still able to have empathy. Maybe that just

615
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: makes a good reporter. I don't know.

616
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 2: Well, I see both sides. I see all sides of

617
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: an issue. You know, every case I cover. I like

618
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 2: Jackson's music. I don't like what I think he did

619
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: to children. That's my I know he was not guilty.

620
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting opinion. It's a valid opinion,

621
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: and I see many people grappling, you know, with the

622
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: fact that he still is. Michael Jackson is so beloved, right,

623
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: and plenty of people that won't put his music on

624
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 1: because they believe that he's a child molester, and they're

625
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: not going to do that. So it's interesting. I like

626
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: hearing your perspective there.

627
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know. I did a I did an

628
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 2: interview with Irish radio once from the courthouse during a

629
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: break and they said, well, you'll be glad to know

630
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 2: we're not playing his music anymore. And I thought that

631
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 2: was the first time i'd heard that. I thought, what's

632
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 2: that going to prove. You know, it just seemed odd

633
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: to me. You know, you can love the art and

634
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 2: not the man or not the person.

635
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: I mean, especially today. I mean, you can get it's

636
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: just interesting with Michael Jackson because people are very loud

637
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 1: and proud about their love of him and his music

638
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: and his career and there's and they don't get canceled

639
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: for it.

640
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 2: But if you think he's guilty, you get canceled by them,

641
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 2: by the fans. I mean, I took all sorts of

642
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: precautions when this Netflix documentary came out, because I knew

643
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 2: there was going to be another rush of crap thrown out. Yeah,

644
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 2: you know about the biopic. I was so interested to

645
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 2: learn that Paris Jackson, Michael's daughter, said I don't want

646
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: any part of this. I saw the early script and

647
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,439
Speaker 2: it's a fantasy. It's a fantasy designed to get money

648
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 2: from the fans.

649
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually remember hearing that, right.

650
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 2: Wow. You know, she's gotten close to her mother, and

651
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: she's gotten close to Debbie Row. Over the last few years,

652
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: Paris went through some tough times, remember and whatnot, And

653
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,720
Speaker 2: I wonder if her mother hasn't sat her down and said,

654
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: let me tell you something. Money I don't have any

655
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 2: way of knowing, but I noticed that Janet jack And

656
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 2: didn't want anything to do with the biopick either, so.

657
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 1: They didn't even mention her. It was all LaToya well,

658
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: she asked not to be mentioned. Yes, it's interesting, it's

659
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: really it's interesting. So who the two boys? I'm sorry

660
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: if I if I messed this up, but I think

661
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: one was Jordi. But the two boys that did they

662
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: sued the Jackson estate after Michael Jackson had died and

663
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,959
Speaker 1: went back and told their story, and it was extremely

664
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: compelling and moving. Do you know who I'm talking about?

665
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 3: It was one Jordy No, No, Jimmy Safe Chuck okay,

666
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 3: and one was Wade Robson, and they were the two

667
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 3: boys in Neverland the.

668
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: Document Thank you. Yes, of course I.

669
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 2: Knew those boys when they were little kids. I saw

670
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 2: those little boys when they were little kids. And Wade Robson,

671
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 2: for example, was brought out after my original reports. After

672
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: about a week of me reporting more and more every

673
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: night every night, Michael Jackson's private investigator, Anthony Pellicano, brings

674
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 2: this little kid out. Two little boys actually, Brett Barnes

675
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 2: and Wade Robson and They're sitting on a couch, their

676
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 2: legs aren't even touching the ground, and a reporter is

677
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 2: asking some off camera reporter is saying, well, what you know,

678
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: did you sleep with Michael Jackson? Yes, and both of

679
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 2: the boys like parrots. But nothing ever happened.

680
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: What was the timeline here? Wait? What was the timeline here?

681
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 2: Dan? In nineteen ninety three?

682
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: You broke the story and you broke the story in

683
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three three with not with them though, No,

684
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: it was.

685
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: All about Jordi Chandler, right, And to counter it, the

686
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 2: Jackson team brings up these two littles too.

687
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: Then later after Michael died, right, So then dies right?

688
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: And I didn't followed itay? Right? Did they? And they

689
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: sued the estate. I don't know if they want.

690
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: No, it's still going. It's in a huge multi year

691
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 2: I think they're in the eighth year of trying this.

692
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 2: And you know, the estate has a billion dollars now

693
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 2: more than a billion dollars, So they're going to fight

694
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: these two boys to young men now till the nth degree.

695
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 2: Wade Robson was at the trial, and you know what

696
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 2: he said, nothing ever happened, Nothing ever happened. Yes, I

697
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 2: slept with them a lot, but nothing ever happened. And

698
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 2: then the prosecution on cross examination said, mister Robson, you

699
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 2: actually live in Hawaii. Yes, where are you staying now

700
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: that you're here? And he said, I'm staying at Nepperland.

701
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 2: It was like, oh, okay, so Michael's putting you up

702
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 2: and you're here testifying that nothing ever happened. And then

703
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 2: the prosecution brought out those big coffee table books with

704
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: the naked boys yeah, and put them in front of

705
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: Wade Robson, who's tall, He's about six foot something five.

706
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 2: And they put the book in front of Wade Robson

707
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: and said, now you have a young son, now, mister Robson,

708
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: yes I do. What if a thirty five year old

709
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: man showed this kind of a book to your son?

710
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: And they started flipping the pages and Wade Robson just

711
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 2: sunk down in his chair like, I wondered had he

712
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: seen these books before? What was going on? And shortly

713
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: after that he came forward and said, yes, I was molested.

714
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 2: I lied on the stand and I was molested. Then

715
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: Jimmy Saifchuk came forward saying, hey, it happened to someone else,

716
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: So it's both those two boys are still suing the

717
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 2: estate after years and years.

718
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: That was a hard one to watch too, But it's

719
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: so fascinating, how I mean, there's all of this, and

720
00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: there's so many boys, and there's so much evidence, and

721
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: there are so many people that still don't believe.

722
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 2: It, and are they all lying? Are they all money

723
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 2: grubbers or the Gavin Arviso and his family were made

724
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: out to be these terrible grifters. They never went after

725
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: any money, you know. Oj Simpson was found not guilty

726
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 2: like Jackson, but then the Goldman's sued in civil court

727
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 2: and could have gone to civil court. They could have

728
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: been money grubbers and gone after it. They never asked

729
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 2: for any money. They went right to the police. Saw

730
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: Gavin Arviso on the documentary that Martin Basheer did, and

731
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 2: they said, who's that kid holding hands with Michael saying

732
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 2: he slept with him his heads on Michael Show. And

733
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: they found him and the mother said, oh my god,

734
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: what happened. I had no idea. I'll testify she didn't say.

735
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 2: She didn't go to the Jacksons and try to get

736
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 2: money like Jerdie Chandler's dad did the r viso have

737
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 2: never ever gone after money?

738
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: Oh? Why Gavin doesn't speak to them anymore? Right to who?

739
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: To his parents? Well, to his mother, No, he does.

740
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 2: Jordie Chandler did not speak to his.

741
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: Mother Gavin too?

742
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: No, okay for no, I mean I don't think they're

743
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: super close.

744
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: Is it so? And JORDI didn't either? Is it? Because

745
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: how could you let this happen to me? Was that?

746
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 2: Yes? Jordie Chandler June testified in court. When was the

747
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 2: last time you saw your son? She said? Eleven years ago?

748
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: So eleven years ago his father took custody of him

749
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,760
Speaker 2: and they moved away from California, moved out to Long Island.

750
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: So he didn't see his mother and blamed his mother

751
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: from everything I understand from different sources, didn't want to

752
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 2: talk to her. Now I think they have, they have

753
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 2: sort of reconciled a bit.

754
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: Imagine being that mother. I mean, the whole thing is

755
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: so horrific, right.

756
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: For that kid. You know, he's got twenty million dollars.

757
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: But right, but having to survive that, I don't know,

758
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: But I think about these mothers that, as you put it,

759
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: he gave them Cardier bracelets imagine and exotic trips and

760
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,479
Speaker 1: then realizing what you had done, what he had done

761
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: to your baby, what you had done by accepting these gifts.

762
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: And you know, for those who think, oh, he cannot

763
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: have done it, he was Michael Jackson. He's my icon.

764
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 2: He's like Jesus Christ, which has been said to me

765
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 2: on more than one occasion.

766
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: That's scary.

767
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 2: Okay. So there's Jordie Chandler, Okay. Then there's Jason Francia,

768
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 2: Then there's Gavin Arvizo, Then there's Wade Robson, Then there's

769
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 2: Jimmy's Safe Chuck, and there are others who have come forward.

770
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: But there's five people right there. I mean, how is

771
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 2: everybody lying? Is everybody after money? I mean the Chandler

772
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 2: of people took money because it was offered to them,

773
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,959
Speaker 2: twenty million dollars. Here, go away with all of those

774
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: fans on your front port. You can escape them and

775
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 2: go across the country, go to another country if you want.

776
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 2: Here's some money. Bye bye. If I'm not guilty of

777
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 2: something like as horrendous as pedophilia, I'm not paying anybody off.

778
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 2: I don't believe the whole thing. Well, he just paid

779
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: them to spare the child the trauma of a trial.

780
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: Have you ever worked on anything that you were as

781
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, engrossed in. I mean there have been

782
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: as this, because I can't imagine anything could ever top.

783
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 2: This, well, certainly in terms of celebrity. But the last

784
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 2: book I wrote, which it took me eight years, eight

785
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 2: years of investigation, I had a syndicated column and I

786
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 2: was writing about the topic in that and then the

787
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 2: floodgates opened, and the issue was guardianship, conservatorship, like what

788
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: happened to Britney Spears. Court ordered guardianship all of a sudden,

789
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 2: some court, some piece of paper says that you're incapacitated

790
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 2: and you lose all your civil rights. And a guardian,

791
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: sometimes a total stranger, is in charge of all your money,

792
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: your will, your power of attorney, all of that is

793
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 2: thrown out.

794
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: Why'd you become interested in that because of the Britney case?

795
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 2: Not really, No, I started looking into it in twenty fifteen,

796
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: and that's a whole nother show.

797
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: Yes, please, I just.

798
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:44,919
Speaker 2: I don't like injustice.

799
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 1: I don't like bullies me neither.

800
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 2: It pisses me off.

801
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: Don't go on reality television.

802
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 2: Oh man, I just I can't stand it. So I

803
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 2: started getting these reports. One from New Mexico. An old

804
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 2: friend's sister called to me, said, the court has taken

805
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 2: over my father's life and is seven million dollars and

806
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,720
Speaker 2: we're never going to get our inheritance because they're spending

807
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: it all. And oh my god, And I thought what.

808
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 2: And I couldn't get any info on it because these

809
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 2: cases are sealed. You're incapacitated. That means hip the laws.

810
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 2: You know, it's medical. We can't it's all private now.

811
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 2: And a few months later I found out about a

812
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 2: very similar case in Pennsylvania. But I could go to

813
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 2: those hearings. I just kind of snuck into those hearings

814
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 2: in Harrisburg, and I realized, this is a nationwide thing.

815
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: What's happening behind closed courtroom doors that we're paying for that,

816
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 2: I mean, people's human rights are being taken away. So

817
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: I wrote a little bit about it in my syndicated column,

818
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 2: which I have given up now, and the floodgates opened.

819
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 2: I started hearing from people in every almost every single state.

820
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 2: It happened to my mother, it happened to my father,

821
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: it happened.

822
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: To my Is there any crime box on it.

823
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 2: Yes, there are. There's one called The Guardian. There is.

824
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: There are two feature films on it, one called I

825
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 2: Care a Lot with Rosamund Pike, and there's another one

826
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 2: called The Bad Guardian. It's lifetime and it's terrific.

827
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: It will bring you back to talk about Melissa Joanhart.

828
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 1: Is this okay? I mean I talked strictly about documentaries,

829
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: but my co host does talks about the movies and

830
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: the films that are made.

831
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 2: Well, there have been a couple of guardianship documentaries made,

832
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 2: and this one in particular, I'll just rip your heart out.

833
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: I'm still conflicted, Like it's so funny with these stars, right,

834
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 1: like a Britney Spears, But what was the truth? Right?

835
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: Did her father snow her? Was she taken advantage of

836
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,959
Speaker 1: in terms of the control that he had over her? Yes?

837
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 2: Right like Jackson Right.

838
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 1: Yes, it's hard to get because there's all of this

839
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: fame and all of the lore of the person that

840
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: I think clouds are judgment, right, maybe the judgment of

841
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: a jury. Yeah, it's very complicated.

842
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 2: And you know she finally got out of guardianship, right,

843
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 2: and then I mean she's self destructive. It it seems Terri.

844
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 2: I wrote a large chapter in my book. It's called

845
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 2: We're here to Help when Guardianship goes wrong. I have

846
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: a huge chapter on Brittany and that they call it

847
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: conservatorship in California. That never should have happened. It was

848
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 2: instituted illegally, and then thirteen years later she finally gets

849
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 2: it lifted. Now is she still all screwed up? Or

850
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,439
Speaker 2: did all of that screwed her control? Screw her up?

851
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: Right? You know?

852
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 2: For the gal right now?

853
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,439
Speaker 1: Like Michael Jackson, I mean, she was one of those

854
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 1: stars stars, it was still less they were in the galaxy.

855
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: They were you know. It's it's that big, right, that huge,

856
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: And so I guess everything takes on almost like a

857
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 1: different meaning. It's it's just an interesting thing. I always think,

858
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: how do you find a jury that doesn't know about

859
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: the music of Michael Jackson right exactly? How do you

860
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: find that person? And if that person does exist, there's

861
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: clearly something wrong with that person. Maybe that person isn't

862
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: leave their house. It's complicated right well.

863
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 2: And in the case of Jackson's jury, Britney Spears never

864
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 2: got a jury trial, she never testified before they put

865
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 2: her in this You know, really restrictive lifestyle. But the

866
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 2: jury for Jackson. You know, Santa Barbara County is not

867
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 2: huge and Neverland is kind of toward the northern part

868
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 2: of the county and it's you know, it's Rodeo area,

869
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 2: it's western. It's like, wow, Hey, that's our most famous resident. Wow.

870
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,919
Speaker 2: Hears him in this tiny courtroom looking in him every

871
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 2: day and wow. And yeah, I mean you saw the

872
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 2: jury in the Netflix. Yes, three thirty years later, she's

873
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 2: still gushing over having been in the same courtroom with

874
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 2: Michael and he caught my eye and said, thank you.

875
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, right right, you know that funny though she was

876
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: even watching her and yeah, I saw what you saw

877
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: right that she was so enamored, But she was very

878
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: I believe that she was trying. I believe that she

879
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 1: was trying to decipher what the truth was. And despite

880
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: the fact that she was enamored, she was likable, I thought,

881
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: And so I wasn't at like it's just confusing. It's very,

882
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: very overwhelmingly confusing. I mean, I have my opinion, you

883
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:51,879
Speaker 1: have your opinion, but I understand even the jurors how

884
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: they made the decision that they.

885
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 2: Made well beyond a reasonable.

886
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: Doubt beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond.

887
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: A reasonable Now, if the ar Diesel had been money grubbers,

888
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 2: they could have gone to civil court, where you don't

889
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 2: have beyond a reasonable doubt. I mean, it's much easier

890
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 2: to win in civil court. They could have gone and

891
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,320
Speaker 2: probably gotten some sort of settlement for a jury.

892
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 1: Right, But he didn't do that. It's interesting you still

893
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: keep in touch. Yes, that's awesome. Yeah, they must love you.

894
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,720
Speaker 2: I actually went to Gavin Arvizl's wedding.

895
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,439
Speaker 1: I think I read that in Georgia. Yeah, they must. Well,

896
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: is he happy?

897
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 2: I don't really really like to talk much about him

898
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 2: because he's not had an easy life. He's a cancer

899
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 2: survivor and he wanted to do certain things in his life.

900
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 2: And every time an employer put his name into Google,

901
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 2: guess what popped up and guess what job he didn't get.

902
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 2: And it's been very tough for Gavin.

903
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to hear that.

904
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's kind of all I want to say

905
00:52:58,200 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 2: about that.

906
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,919
Speaker 1: That's absolutely fine. Yeah, that's absolutely fine.

907
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,399
Speaker 2: But he's married, happily married and has a good job,

908
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 2: I think, And yeah, it's good.

909
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear it. Yeah, do you think that

910
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: we will I kind of know the answer to this

911
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: ever reach a public consensus on Michael Jackson's his legacy

912
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: justin to remain unresolved.

913
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 2: No, No, don't. I don't think Netflix documentary, the biopic don't.

914
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 2: I don't think they change minds.

915
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: Minds are I don't either. I agree although the documentary,

916
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,280
Speaker 1: you know, I guess I wanted to believe maybe maybe,

917
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 1: maybe maybe maybe he was innocent, it didn't matter he

918
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: was dead, not that it didn't matter matter to his victims.

919
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: But I'm saying, you know, but what I mean is

920
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: that it was it's easier to think, maybe you know,

921
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: that he wasn't that way, But the documentary definitely swayed me.

922
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,320
Speaker 1: And I always thought he did it. But yeah, I

923
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: don't know.

924
00:53:54,440 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 2: You know, it's easier to think. It's hard to accept.

925
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 1: That's exactly right, especially with someone whose work you love

926
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: and admire, especially someone who you have seen performed since

927
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: he was an adorable kid and you were an adorable kid.

928
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: Especially with all of that's it is, It's a different thing, right,

929
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 1: And I think that I have definitely for years after

930
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: he died, I just didn't want to put my mind

931
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: to it. Why would I But I think that the

932
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: documentary definitely forced me to open up my eyes.

933
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: It's easier to think that that no, that doesn't happen

934
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:30,959
Speaker 2: right right, human nature.

935
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: What do you believe is the most important takeaway from

936
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 1: the verdict?

937
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 2: I think we have a justice system and we have

938
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 2: to trust it, and this jury said he wasn't guilty,

939
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 2: and so he was not guilty in the eyes of

940
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 2: the law period.

941
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: What if it had been today that it went down,

942
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 1: do you think that it would have been folded differently

943
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: in terms of today's media environment.

944
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 2: Yes, I do think. I think today it would have

945
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 2: potentially gotten a different verdict because people are more aware,

946
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 2: people are talking about these things. People are reading more

947
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 2: things about child molestation and deviant behaviors and bad childhoods

948
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: and what they do to people. You know, yeah, I

949
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 2: think there could have been a different, different verdict today.

950
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 2: You know, I'll say one more thing. Even though he

951
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 2: was found out guilty, I hear from a lot of

952
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 2: I heard from a lot of people after the verdict

953
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:32,240
Speaker 2: and after the Netflix documentary. I heard from child sexual

954
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 2: abuse survivors. Really thank you, Thank you for covering the story,

955
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 2: thank you for writing the book. Thank you for believing

956
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,359
Speaker 2: it couldn't happen. You know, it can happen. It can

957
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 2: be a priest, a boy scout, It can be yourn

958
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 2: extraor neighbor.

959
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:50,359
Speaker 1: It can be your own I know it can happen.

960
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 2: It can be your school teacher. You know. And there's

961
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 2: a lot of survivors out there that are very happy

962
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 2: that the topic continues to be discussed.

963
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:05,320
Speaker 1: Yes, as am I and very grateful. Yeah, you do

964
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: good work, my friend.

965
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you.