Speaker 1: Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. There are so many different
Speaker 1: fields of expertise and jobs and certain spaces where someone
Speaker 1: chooses to work in, and I am just so fascinated
Speaker 1: with this particular area of expertise that our next guest
Speaker 1: works in. This person is a leading forensic psychologist, trauma expert,
Speaker 1: training professional, and author. She addresses diverse topics including post
Speaker 1: traumatic stress disorder, multicultural therapeutic techniques, gang intervention, prison reform,
Speaker 1: human trafficking, violence against women's substance abuse, relationships, parenting, and
Speaker 1: mental health. Y'all, I'm excited about doctor Deborah Warner joining
Speaker 1: us today. She's a professor in Los Angeles, I think,
Speaker 1: but today she's joining us from Columbia University in New York.
Speaker 1: She is everywhere, and she's often asked to be an
Speaker 1: expert witness, psychological evaluator, and consultant soul. She's an expert
Speaker 1: witness that is asked to testify on court cases. Y'all know,
Speaker 1: my field or my major was criminal justice at one time,
Speaker 1: and so I am just thrilled to be talking to
Speaker 1: doctor Deborah Warner today. So please stay tuned. If you're
Speaker 1: a crime junkie like me, stay listening. Welcome, Welcome to
Speaker 1: another episode of Checking In. I'm so grateful for everybody
Speaker 1: who downloads episodes. It seems like you're telling everybody about
Speaker 1: Checking In, and we cannot do cannot even be in
Speaker 1: a season three without y'all checking in. Today's guest. I'm
Speaker 1: so excited. I'm literally about to If I had children,
Speaker 1: they would probably say, you're embarrassing me, because you know
Speaker 1: how you have parents that say, you know, when I
Speaker 1: was growing up, I wanted to be an astronaut. I
Speaker 1: wanted to be a doctor. So they start telling you
Speaker 1: all the things that they did right, and I am
Speaker 1: about to do the same thing with our next guest.
Speaker 1: She is a leading for forensic psychologist, trauma expert, speaker,
Speaker 1: and author of several titles. I mean, she's got an
Speaker 1: upcoming conference that's about trauma and mental health and we
Speaker 1: are going to get into that. But y'all, she's amazing. Okay,
Speaker 1: she made me go put on a red lip. Y'all.
Speaker 1: Welcome doctor Deborah Warner to Checking In. Adam Schelle, how
Speaker 1: are you. I am just excited to do so I listen, doctor,
Speaker 1: I am so glad to meet you. The good thing
Speaker 1: about checking and we get to talk to and a
Speaker 1: array of people who specialize and everything from trauma to
Speaker 1: mental health. We even had Lorenz Tate and he's an
Speaker 1: actor and so see y'all look her eyes got big.
Speaker 1: She was like, wait a minute, Lorenz Taate. Yes, She's like,
Speaker 1: why we how come we couldn't do a group chat?
Speaker 1: You know? So this is what I'm about to say.
Speaker 1: That could be embarrassing if I had children or anybody listening,
Speaker 1: because somebody always got to tell you what they wanted
Speaker 1: to be when they grew up. But doctor Warner. In college,
Speaker 1: my major was criminal justice because I wanted to be
Speaker 1: a forensic psychologist. No yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes.
Speaker 1: And to this day I watch all type of true
Speaker 1: crime in real time. I don't like like recreated stuff
Speaker 1: like say, for instance, one of the popular stories right
Speaker 1: out right now is the Murdole trial. Right and so
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there even as of last night, some new
Speaker 1: stuff has come out about the sun and I'm like
Speaker 1: trying to be doctor Deborah, trying to figure out what
Speaker 1: would you say and how would you unpiece everything? So, yes,
Speaker 1: I have to be the one to be like I
Speaker 1: wanted to be like you, This is what I wanted
Speaker 1: to do. Wow. Wow, that just makes me really happy
Speaker 1: because you know part of what I do right now,
Speaker 1: Since you're into piecing out crimes and all of that,
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I do every day. Like I
Speaker 1: go in the prisons and I actually piece together if
Speaker 1: someone is still going to behold all the time that
Speaker 1: they're released, and so I have to go back backtry
Speaker 1: put all that information together. Sometimes it's like two pages,
Speaker 1: and I have to figure out how that person ticked
Speaker 1: and tell the court how they're going to proceed in life.
Speaker 1: It is very, very fascinating. I think this year have
Speaker 1: done at least three her cases like that. Really. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: if you need an assistant to help stack papers and
Speaker 1: put them in order and file everything for you, let
Speaker 1: me know. I'd be glad to intern for you for
Speaker 1: the summer. Oh my good, did you want to have
Speaker 1: to enter with them? Listen? Well, I will intern for
Speaker 1: you based where do you? Where are you based? Right now?
Speaker 1: I am based in California, And right now I'm in
Speaker 1: New York City and I am sitting you know, here
Speaker 1: at Columbia talking to you. But I'm based in LA.
Speaker 1: Really well, let me know when you get back to
Speaker 1: California so I can help sax and papers. Okay, Oh,
Speaker 1: I will let you know and we will we will
Speaker 1: talk about this, but you have I will let you
Speaker 1: live that out. That will be so much fun just
Speaker 1: to do that. Please, please, please, So, doctor Warner, you
Speaker 1: have been a speaker at TED Talk on male trauma. Yes,
Speaker 1: and you even wrote a book titled His Story, Her Story,
Speaker 1: A Survival Guide for Spouses of Male Survivors of Sexual Abuse.
Speaker 1: So you guys that are listening, not only is she
Speaker 1: so as you can see, you went from forensics to trauma,
Speaker 1: specifically male trauma, because doctor Debra, there are times where
Speaker 1: do you think a lot of it kind of goes
Speaker 1: on talked about with men? Oh? Absolutely men, because men
Speaker 1: don't disclose. Men will carry that secret for twenty thirty years,
Speaker 1: and then when they do, they're afraid people gonna laugh
Speaker 1: at them or not believe them. Right, The biggest thing
Speaker 1: you can do is a man discloses to you is
Speaker 1: shut up and let him tell you the whole story,
Speaker 1: because if you don't listen and he's trying to, is
Speaker 1: probably the first time he'll never tell anyone else again,
Speaker 1: you would stopped that process and that journey of healing.
Speaker 1: And so I always tell people that men are different
Speaker 1: because they will not disclose it. When they do, you
Speaker 1: have to let them have that space. Wow, how did
Speaker 1: you get into forensics and trauma? How did that in
Speaker 1: mental health? How did that come about? You know, you're
Speaker 1: how God got eat two places? That's kind of what happened, right.
Speaker 1: And I remember working in New York and being at
Speaker 1: this place and then I saw these patients and it
Speaker 1: was like this big, old early guy tearing a payphone
Speaker 1: out of the wall. And I said, what kind of
Speaker 1: patients are those? And they said, those are forensics patients.
Speaker 1: I said, that's what I want to do the rest
Speaker 1: of our life. And I just in crisis, it's just
Speaker 1: how I just don't respond. I'm able to see a
Speaker 1: situation and we'll navigate through it, but I'm really able
Speaker 1: to understand people, right, And so I waited three years
Speaker 1: for a program to come out so that I could
Speaker 1: be a forensic psychologist. But now I mentor other people.
Speaker 1: And one of the things I do is the Script
Speaker 1: Conference every year for people and it's free to the community.
Speaker 1: It's on male violence and trauma. And this year is
Speaker 1: on diversity and inclusion and it's July twentieth and twenty first.
Speaker 1: And what we do is that we let anyone come.
Speaker 1: We have people from the FBI, we have wardens of prisons,
Speaker 1: and we have ex gang members on the same panels. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One year we did Black Lives Matter with the police. Wow.
Speaker 1: You know, it made me want to ask when you
Speaker 1: are talking about having to sit with inmates and go
Speaker 1: over cold files or not even cold case files, but
Speaker 1: files that are current. You know, as we're seeing in
Speaker 1: the news right now, are you finding when you get
Speaker 1: to talk with the men that are you finding a
Speaker 1: lot of trauma that they had in childhood? Oh? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: This word starts. It starts from childhood. But not just
Speaker 1: sexual trauma. Like in my book this history or story,
Speaker 1: it is environmental trauma. It's the fact that they're growing
Speaker 1: up with that around them, especially people of color. My
Speaker 1: book Barber and My Boys, that's all about environmental violence
Speaker 1: and those people were traumatized from living in that environment
Speaker 1: and causing them problems later in life. You never know
Speaker 1: what's going to affect somebody, right, But when you have
Speaker 1: everything coming at you from environment it's going to completely
Speaker 1: change your worldview. And then you're a man and you're
Speaker 1: told you gotta be strong, you have to be a
Speaker 1: good dad, you have to be the top athlete, you
Speaker 1: have to do all these things right. But when you
Speaker 1: have to be everything and you're broken, can you imagine
Speaker 1: you have a hard time when you can't live up
Speaker 1: to expectations. So that's what causes a lot of the
Speaker 1: problems with people emotionally, especially men in trauma. Okay, so
Speaker 1: I'm assuming do you feel men kind of process or
Speaker 1: display trauma different than women, and if so, what are
Speaker 1: some of the signs? Well, manifests different, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: women who are traumatized might go down the one path
Speaker 1: and men might go down the same path. Right, But
Speaker 1: it manifests differently because men are socialized differently. Women will
Speaker 1: talk about it, you can. There's lots and lots of
Speaker 1: resources from women in domestic violence shelters or women who
Speaker 1: have been traumatized. They're not as many for men because
Speaker 1: people don't believe men, or they say, suck it up
Speaker 1: and be a mayor. Right, Yeah, so that's the problem
Speaker 1: in our society. I want to ask you what type
Speaker 1: of person tells a person to suck it up from
Speaker 1: a psychologist point of view. Seriously, A very famous comedian
Speaker 1: that was on a station actually when and someone was
Speaker 1: asking him that question, and his response was that suck
Speaker 1: it up in vehement. I don't say who it is,
Speaker 1: they know, yes, And so I've heard that many many times.
Speaker 1: Or they say they were lucky. If a female perpetrator
Speaker 1: and the kids thirteen years old is sexually abusing them
Speaker 1: and they're like thirty five, they'll say they're lucky. Do
Speaker 1: you know that you just shaped their whole world and
Speaker 1: how they see women and how they see other people,
Speaker 1: and how they have wives and daughters. But they don't
Speaker 1: realize they're lucky. I know we were talking about. I
Speaker 1: mentioned your book, His Story, Her Story, A survival Guy
Speaker 1: for spouses of male survivors of sexual abuse and trauma. Now,
Speaker 1: if you are in a relationship with the men who
Speaker 1: has suffered trauma, what does that look like in her relationship? Well,
Speaker 1: my husband's are trauma's survivor. He's the one who encouraged
Speaker 1: me to go down this path because he realized there
Speaker 1: was something about me working with men who were traumatized.
Speaker 1: Because I just sat one day, honestly, and I said,
Speaker 1: what the heck is wrong with my husband? Like I
Speaker 1: couldn't figure out, And I said, you know, they're just
Speaker 1: like colleges. You don't want to shrink your husband. We
Speaker 1: want to know this relationship does not follow other patterns, right,
Speaker 1: And it doesn't follow other patterns because there's so many
Speaker 1: safety issues that were broken. There are so many issues
Speaker 1: of being dominant, but you're broken inside, so you don't
Speaker 1: want to be seen as weak. There are so many
Speaker 1: different things that and men, especially if you're supposed to
Speaker 1: be the red owner and you're supposed to be the
Speaker 1: person that is the head of the household, but you're
Speaker 1: you're depressed and you have all these things inside. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: you're men only have one emotion if they can show
Speaker 1: in life, and that's anger. So they become angry, right,
Speaker 1: and they yell or they do things like that, and
Speaker 1: you're like, why is in one speed or the highway?
Speaker 1: Why can't you have others? Because that is the only
Speaker 1: acceptable one. So to say I'm hurting, to say I'm
Speaker 1: depressed comes out as anger. It out of irritability. And
Speaker 1: so a lot of times when I'm in the prison,
Speaker 1: I get to tell those stories to the court now right,
Speaker 1: and they're saying they're angry, they're violent. I said, no,
Speaker 1: he's a trauma survivor, and let me tell you what
Speaker 1: you need to do so that you can help him,
Speaker 1: versus saying it to trauma survivor and he's a lost clause.
Speaker 1: So even though I love my job and I get
Speaker 1: to work with all these people and figure out if
Speaker 1: they are going to re hurt society, I also get
Speaker 1: to tell a story, and that story a lot of
Speaker 1: times helps other people. I remember I was working on
Speaker 1: this one case and it was a trauma survivor and
Speaker 1: there's like, no, this has got stand person forever. And
Speaker 1: I said, if he has the right things because of this,
Speaker 1: especially if you get him away from his family, I
Speaker 1: guarantee in time they'll be better. I'm not saying today,
Speaker 1: I'm saying in life. Time will start to heal him
Speaker 1: because now he's willing to talk. And that is the
Speaker 1: key is to get to talk and get it open.
Speaker 1: Women talk all the time. Men they can't do it
Speaker 1: as much, so you have to find a way to
Speaker 1: get in there. So you're saying that there are some
Speaker 1: men that are in prison who can definitely be rehabilitated
Speaker 1: simply by someone sitting there listening to him, which can
Speaker 1: start his healing journey. Yes, now we all know that
Speaker 1: unfortunately their healing journey does not bring back the person
Speaker 1: that was harmed, right, No, that it doesn't bring them back,
Speaker 1: or even if the person is still alive, they are
Speaker 1: still they're going to have that lifelong memory of trauma
Speaker 1: that was inflicted upon them by that person in prison
Speaker 1: that you get to speak to. But are you finding
Speaker 1: do you have like a success story or two where
Speaker 1: you're like, because someone listened, they're on a better path.
Speaker 1: Have they been released into the community, and how are
Speaker 1: they doing? I how a few of us that made
Speaker 1: me smile, and a lot of them, and I have
Speaker 1: a lot of my voice from Barbara, my voice, their
Speaker 1: success stories. I wrote them down. I got them to
Speaker 1: help me help others understand by allowing me to write
Speaker 1: down their five stories, My Niko, my Tommy, my Blue.
Speaker 1: They come every year and they help me and my
Speaker 1: Barbara from Barbara and my boys you know, and my mistreporter.
Speaker 1: And they their stories are from being in there, from
Speaker 1: attempted murder to being gang bangers to now Barbara, you know,
Speaker 1: has a whole organization that helps young girls who are
Speaker 1: in gangs. And they told me, you know, if you are,
Speaker 1: we are a reflection of you because you allow us
Speaker 1: to have a voice. And I said, none of them.
Speaker 1: I am your heart and I'm able to tell that story.
Speaker 1: And then now they have a platform, you know, because
Speaker 1: they come to my conference. But I mean, those stories
Speaker 1: make me happen, like being able to help in that
Speaker 1: way and help my community like that, what sparked your
Speaker 1: interest in this field? It's amazing, you know. I want
Speaker 1: to do my neck of the woods. I want to
Speaker 1: create change. I want to create change for the next
Speaker 1: you know, society. I do have a map with people
Speaker 1: and understanding them, you know, because that's the gift God
Speaker 1: gave me. Right, So how can I use that for good?
Speaker 1: Like you know, my son, I'm out here in New York.
Speaker 1: I'm doing a social emotional learning program with kids in
Speaker 1: acting and comedy right and I'm presenting at the Cosmic
Speaker 1: Calling Club. Oh man, I wish you were here because
Speaker 1: I invite you. People don't even understand how that work
Speaker 1: that you're doing for actors, how important that is. But
Speaker 1: that's a whole another question for later. Like yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: well I'll go onto it briefly. By the way, there
Speaker 1: are some actors who have suppressed feelings who can't seem
Speaker 1: to I'm in one of them where they're like, get angry,
Speaker 1: get angry, and I'm like, yeah, I can't get angry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but why there is a white to white. So it
Speaker 1: takes the work that you're doing, doctor Devor to work
Speaker 1: with actors to let them know, first of all, you're safe,
Speaker 1: and maybe you need to get this out because the
Speaker 1: thing that you're about to play is going to be
Speaker 1: so organic. Yes, And that's the thing that I do
Speaker 1: is I take that one thing we startain monologues, and
Speaker 1: then I take that one thing, I say, okay, now
Speaker 1: you link to it, and then what is that feeling
Speaker 1: you're trying to convict? And then everybody does it with
Speaker 1: the trainer so that the actors get to work with
Speaker 1: the trainer on what they see. So it's like a
Speaker 1: mirror process. And we're doing this with kids so that
Speaker 1: later in life they don't get stuck with these emotions
Speaker 1: they're not getting out, which is really great. And my
Speaker 1: little son at six, he couldn't read, so I use
Speaker 1: social emotional learning with him and he's written two bocks.
Speaker 1: The little kid who couldn't read at six is now
Speaker 1: a published author. And he made all these animals to
Speaker 1: tell his story. And the latest one is Freddy Fox's
Speaker 1: Freaky Fire and he talks about this and he has
Speaker 1: these characters and it's just amazing. But what you can do,
Speaker 1: Like you ask me why for that joy that I got? Yeah,
Speaker 1: my little boy, you use the tools God gave you.
Speaker 1: If you use what God gave you, you can do good. Right.
Speaker 1: You just have to believe in yourself. You know, with
Speaker 1: everything that we're seeing on social media, say, I have
Speaker 1: this question about gaming, Oh yeah, are you finding people?
Speaker 1: I guess the psychology behind why. Somebody says I want
Speaker 1: to do this in real life, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: this is just a game, because if you do it
Speaker 1: in real life, you're gonna be in jail. You're you're
Speaker 1: talking about like the gaming culture and then being able
Speaker 1: to put crimes out. Yes, yes, okay, I actually work
Speaker 1: in that area. And people don't realize that there are
Speaker 1: underground games right on the black net that are actual
Speaker 1: other things that are going on, right and so and
Speaker 1: then just like you have, you know, snuff films, things
Speaker 1: like that. There's a whole section of stuff that people
Speaker 1: don't even realize it's out there. But then you have
Speaker 1: the kids that are on the you know, they're doing
Speaker 1: a twitch and they're doing all that. They're gaming and
Speaker 1: they're just playing the game. But then you have in
Speaker 1: all of these is what I've seen is you get
Speaker 1: obsessed with this and you sit and you're sedentary, right,
Speaker 1: and for some reason you're not engaging with the world,
Speaker 1: and that's why you get sucked into this stuff and
Speaker 1: you end up on the black Net and and all
Speaker 1: that stuff because you are there's thing you're dealing with.
Speaker 1: The video games is feeling for you that is just
Speaker 1: not It's not what you need to be doing. And
Speaker 1: I always tell people you don't go get help. I
Speaker 1: used to use video games as therapy so that I
Speaker 1: could tap into that person that was sitting there on
Speaker 1: the couch like that. Yeah, because I said, well, that's
Speaker 1: their world, let me figure out how I can get
Speaker 1: in there. Listen, you know how many men would love
Speaker 1: to say, if I need to play video games, I'm
Speaker 1: going to therapy. All my teenagers would show up because
Speaker 1: I knew it. All the thing is I'm talking about
Speaker 1: grown men who's still playing games. Yeah, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 1: Be like, honey, no, you know, go to therapy. You
Speaker 1: know you get to play video games. Yes, yes, but
Speaker 1: you know you preach, you reach your client where they're at. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That was the other thing I did in the prisons too.
Speaker 1: When I used to be in there, I used to
Speaker 1: bring a boombox. You know, they've never got to have
Speaker 1: all this music and in there sometimes, so I would
Speaker 1: go in there, I bring my boombox. I said, give
Speaker 1: me a list of songs, but you have to tell
Speaker 1: me what that song. See, so they got to hear
Speaker 1: all this music. Because I'm a therapist, I can bring
Speaker 1: it in right, and so they have to hear it.
Speaker 1: But then we had to talk about wow, which gets
Speaker 1: them talking and expressing. Right. That's so good because there
Speaker 1: are so many of I'm gonna say, us, we don't
Speaker 1: know how to talk, we don't know how to express,
Speaker 1: and there's so many reasons. And I'll never forget, you know,
Speaker 1: reading things that say let your kids express themselves, you know,
Speaker 1: because I grew up in a place where it was
Speaker 1: don't know, you can't say anything because that's considered talking back.
Speaker 1: But you don't realize you're suppressing their ability to express
Speaker 1: for later, right. And and then you know, it's so
Speaker 1: funny because I have my son and have my daughter,
Speaker 1: and my mom would always say, you don't let him
Speaker 1: saying it. I said, I'm gonna let him say whatever
Speaker 1: he wants. And then I'm a practive and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be a parent. That's the difference is that I'm gonna
Speaker 1: teach him how to talk, but I'm to teach him,
Speaker 1: for example, right instead of me as a kid, my
Speaker 1: response would be, you know, get the switch right. That's
Speaker 1: not exactly my southern house, right, you know. So I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna I'm gonna parent
Speaker 1: a different way, right. I remember kid was jumping on
Speaker 1: the couch one day. He was like three years old.
Speaker 1: He's jumping up on the couch and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: let him do that, and I said, he's not hurting anything.
Speaker 1: And when he cracks his head real stop. Okay. So
Speaker 1: I hope my cousin Brittany is listening. She's a therapist
Speaker 1: and she definitely believes in that, you know, and a
Speaker 1: lot of people might say little jokes to her or
Speaker 1: make you know, or say little smart comments of the
Speaker 1: way that she is deciding to parent her child in
Speaker 1: the way that she wasn't parented, or in the way
Speaker 1: even like I said, that's my first cousin, in a
Speaker 1: way that I wouldn't because you're used to a belt,
Speaker 1: you're used to a switch, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm sure you've seen that how that
Speaker 1: manifest in a person's behavior later on. Yes, yes, that
Speaker 1: makes it even worse than you have all these weird attachments, right,
Speaker 1: you get disordanized attachments. You love and you hate your
Speaker 1: viewser at the same time because they're your parent, but
Speaker 1: get you hate them because they hit you, right, and
Speaker 1: so then you start making that same attachment with all
Speaker 1: these people. That's why you have broken marriages. It's why
Speaker 1: there's divorces, that's why people can't connect to their kids
Speaker 1: because they've done all that. And you know, one of
Speaker 1: the things people don't get because in the black community
Speaker 1: we talk about the switch, right, but that happened because
Speaker 1: of history. Right, I'm not gonna get too deep, but
Speaker 1: the difference is is that we picked that up because
Speaker 1: we didn't want someone else to do it, because we
Speaker 1: didn't want our child dead. So that's why we picked
Speaker 1: it up. We didn't pick it up because that's what's
Speaker 1: our nature. It was because it was either us or
Speaker 1: someone else who didn't love our child. Doctor one, and
Speaker 1: I have hurt that. I'm sure people listening have hurt it. Like,
Speaker 1: if I don't beat my child, the police will, right,
Speaker 1: somebody else will, so before let me disapline my child
Speaker 1: at home so that no one else has to do it.
Speaker 1: I have Yeah, you're right, I definitely have heard that,
Speaker 1: and it is passed down. You have when I tell
Speaker 1: you several areas of expertise, but there was an area
Speaker 1: that's not talked about a lot, maybe in our world,
Speaker 1: I'm sure obviously where you go as far as corporate
Speaker 1: trauma workplace trauma, yes, and how this can affect one's help.
Speaker 1: So what qualifies as workplace trauma? Oh my goodness, So
Speaker 1: corporate trauma to have a course on, I listen to
Speaker 1: love university on it too. But one of the things
Speaker 1: the reason I made the course was because you know,
Speaker 1: I used to be in the corporate world. You know,
Speaker 1: I was like assistant acting dean for a while, Like
Speaker 1: you know, I was the first full professor like forty
Speaker 1: two like you know who look like me? At some
Speaker 1: point and I realized I wasn't me. Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I was behaving in a way that fits certain
Speaker 1: social norms, and I said, but what do I want
Speaker 1: to do too? You know? And then I realized I
Speaker 1: was like freaking out because I didn't have donuts one
Speaker 1: day for a meeting, right, because you better have your donuts,
Speaker 1: you said you were having. Yeah, yeah, you got to produce.
Speaker 1: And that's traumatizing, right, But then you have where you
Speaker 1: can't even go tell somebody how you're feeling. You can't
Speaker 1: even express that because if you do, there's someone right
Speaker 1: there to pick you off and take through place, right, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's traumatizing because you're never secure. You never get secure footing.
Speaker 1: So one of the things I teach people is how
Speaker 1: to find that secure footing, how to find your allies,
Speaker 1: how to find mentors. Right, And I didn't have mentors,
Speaker 1: and then I finally have really good mentors, and I learned,
Speaker 1: I said, you you have there's certain things you do
Speaker 1: in the corporate virus, certain things you don't, and then
Speaker 1: when you're ready, leave on your own terms, because then
Speaker 1: you leave being you. Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. Now,
Speaker 1: y'all don't be going to work talking about some telling
Speaker 1: the boss I'm leaving today. I listened to checking in
Speaker 1: with Michelle and they told us that we can leave,
Speaker 1: you know, but so you know, what should a person do,
Speaker 1: because no one should be experienced. Well, people don't even
Speaker 1: know that that's what they're doing, inflicting trauma. No, I'll
Speaker 1: be full transparency. I was sitting in a counseling session
Speaker 1: one year and I'm sitting in a session with someone
Speaker 1: and they were telling the therapist something that I said,
Speaker 1: and the therapist looked at me and said, you know,
Speaker 1: this can be considered verbal abuse, And I said, no,
Speaker 1: I know what I felt to have been verbally abuse.
Speaker 1: I've been verbally abused, not in this relational But they
Speaker 1: don't realize, like, no, it's not about the yes, the
Speaker 1: tone in which you say something. I just thought it
Speaker 1: was the volume and how a person can stand over
Speaker 1: you and seem so threatening you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: And so I think there are some I think even
Speaker 1: some microaggressions in the workplace can be seen as trauma. Right, Yes,
Speaker 1: if I'm hearing the that's where I was going. Microaggressions,
Speaker 1: those little bitty things like people don't realize when you
Speaker 1: say something like, you know, going into someone's office, right,
Speaker 1: and you hand them a document you did and then
Speaker 1: they say to you, oh, did someone help you with this?
Speaker 1: It's so well written? What does that say? You're giving
Speaker 1: uncompla that you're not You're saying you're not smart enough
Speaker 1: to do it on your own. That's a microaggression. So
Speaker 1: guess what happens? You said that? Well, Sally overhears it.
Speaker 1: She goes and says, oh, did you hear what they said?
Speaker 1: Now you've created an environment where this person is seeing
Speaker 1: like they can't write and they don't understand what happened.
Speaker 1: And then the trauma continues. It starts going because people
Speaker 1: don't realize what comes out of their mouth. People here,
Speaker 1: it goes in their heart. That's the key. It goes
Speaker 1: in their heart, and then people believe it. Doctor Deborah, Wow,
Speaker 1: I hope that whoever is listening. I feel like you're triggered,
Speaker 1: and hopefully you can just sit and breathe and me
Speaker 1: and doctor Deborah can sit here and tell you you
Speaker 1: don't deserve that. No, you know what I mean, And
Speaker 1: so just kind of breathe. And how many people doctor
Speaker 1: have to deal with trauma at the workplace because they
Speaker 1: meet this job. It's like I can't quit. I have
Speaker 1: the family, or a lot of people stay on the
Speaker 1: job and are experiencing trauma on the job because that's
Speaker 1: where they get the insurance and benefits, right, And they
Speaker 1: got the baby at home, right, they got the grandma,
Speaker 1: or they're taking care of their mom. But those are
Speaker 1: those generational layers that people don't realize bring someone in
Speaker 1: the workplace. A lot of time now I do consulting,
Speaker 1: especially with female executives, and I talk about the layers
Speaker 1: because they don't realize that onion is what's keeping them
Speaker 1: in that job because they may not be happy because
Speaker 1: you know, I have elderly parents, they say, or my
Speaker 1: kids going to college, or I'm a single mom, or
Speaker 1: I've made partner and I worked really hard, But are
Speaker 1: you happy? Oh my god, that's not making you right.
Speaker 1: It's the layers that I go through with them. This
Speaker 1: first of all, working with female executives, that can be
Speaker 1: a whole other or another yes, I'm gonna say another,
Speaker 1: a whole nother masterclass that I don't know if you
Speaker 1: have ever done, Like just for female executives because of
Speaker 1: the slack they get, the flat they get, the like
Speaker 1: you said, the microaggression too, you know, just on females
Speaker 1: period in the workplace, it's traumatic. Let's talk about corporate
Speaker 1: America regarding the pandemic and how tons of people She's like,
Speaker 1: what corporate America the pandemic? There ain't nobody at work
Speaker 1: no more. Well, well, it's because they've been doing the
Speaker 1: term quiet quitting, you know. So there's there's so many terms.
Speaker 1: There's a new term called soft life, but that's new
Speaker 1: because it's like what I think I want to soft
Speaker 1: life too. But anyway, we got quiet quitting, and there's
Speaker 1: so many people who quit because because they no longer
Speaker 1: wanted to go above and beyond. They only wanted to
Speaker 1: do the work that they were paid for. And there
Speaker 1: is even a push for four day work weeks that
Speaker 1: are trending. What do you use foresee as the new
Speaker 1: corporate climate? If workers aren't heard what I think's gonna
Speaker 1: happen or what right corporate's gonna predict to happen? Right,
Speaker 1: you're the expert, So okay, I'll give you. I'll give
Speaker 1: you two Sunarians Okay, First of all, I think nobody's
Speaker 1: gonna go back to work. They love this. The pandemic
Speaker 1: has caused people to see things differently. People in Europe
Speaker 1: do this all the time, right, and they're able to
Speaker 1: balance and do things. I mean people like being in
Speaker 1: their sweatpants and just five minutes before going the right
Speaker 1: so you know everybody has done it so because nobody
Speaker 1: knows there right. So so but I got on my
Speaker 1: full outfit. I'm matching from I'm matching. I don't have
Speaker 1: on just sweats. I'm matching well. But but this is
Speaker 1: what people are doing, right, and so they're they're gonna
Speaker 1: push back. The problem is corporations have build these sky
Speaker 1: rides offices. They have all these people and no one's
Speaker 1: in them. They are in New York. You're in New
Speaker 1: York as we speak, right in the mindset, I have
Speaker 1: to see you to be working. But there are so
Speaker 1: many skyscrapers being build office spaces, like, what are they
Speaker 1: going to do? I mean, how many apartments can you have? Right?
Speaker 1: So there's gonna be a shift in realistic and what
Speaker 1: is that shift going to look like? Are they going
Speaker 1: to force people to come to work? So they don't
Speaker 1: waste their money big organizations. Maybe not. Are we gonna
Speaker 1: have a shift in hotels? Are we gonna have a
Speaker 1: shift in leisure spaces or spaces people can rent for
Speaker 1: office space, or are we gonna have a shift and
Speaker 1: looking at how we redirect to work? Hey, you you
Speaker 1: know what this This used to be an office space
Speaker 1: and we're gonna revamp this to be a space where
Speaker 1: you can work a plate. Okay, So I think that
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a for instance coming out, but there
Speaker 1: are gonna be those other ones more, you know that
Speaker 1: are gonna say hey, we want to see you working
Speaker 1: and bring people back in the workplace. And there are
Speaker 1: some jobs that you have to physically be there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but if not, I see a change. I see a
Speaker 1: definite change in one time. Do you feel that people
Speaker 1: being in the workspace kind of keeps workplace synergy and
Speaker 1: energy good? Now, I'm not saying every day, but if
Speaker 1: you're if I'm thinking like if somebody's in the workplace
Speaker 1: for like a day, everybody coming to work for a
Speaker 1: day or two, I would think that that's okay. Because
Speaker 1: I'm the type of person as far as work is concerned,
Speaker 1: I'm in the place where I'm doing a lot of
Speaker 1: virtual meetings and I'm like, man, I wish I could
Speaker 1: be in the office with you, because I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's something cool about it. There are a lot of
Speaker 1: people that I work with that want to go in,
Speaker 1: and a lot of the organizations that I consult with
Speaker 1: let those people come in. And what they do is
Speaker 1: they have sign ups for offices, so you've actually the
Speaker 1: same office every day for the next year if you
Speaker 1: want to. Right. But those people are more productive. Then
Speaker 1: they have the other people who say, they say, you
Speaker 1: can work wherever you want as long as you stay
Speaker 1: in the US, okay, And so then they give them
Speaker 1: the equipment. Right. But there are certain people that cannot
Speaker 1: handle being at home, and so they recognize that because
Speaker 1: there is an energy to going and talking at the
Speaker 1: water cooler or you know, bringing people you know in
Speaker 1: your office and hashing things out right, you know. So
Speaker 1: it depends on the personality, depends on the task that
Speaker 1: they're doing. Now, men, personally, I think they're more productive
Speaker 1: at home because I really like lunches people, and I
Speaker 1: tend to wanders. So you're better at home, okay, and listen,
Speaker 1: And I think that the pandemic, there needed to be
Speaker 1: some shifts made, and so sometimes there there are aspects
Speaker 1: of the pandemic that were for a cleansing in all
Speaker 1: kinds of ways. But at the same time, didn't we
Speaker 1: hate all the lives that were lost in the families
Speaker 1: who I grieve the loss of a loved one who
Speaker 1: went into the hospital, Oh yeah and didn't come back,
Speaker 1: you know, Oh my god, there's so many. You know.
Speaker 1: What's interesting, My husband finally got COVID like recently, which
Speaker 1: is sad, right, and he did it over Christmas and
Speaker 1: he went blind. He lost his sight, yes, no wonder
Speaker 1: the first self is And so we kind of create
Speaker 1: a family car bowl and my daughter was helped driving
Speaker 1: him around and like he woke up and his sight
Speaker 1: was like negative two thousand are huge? Serious? How is
Speaker 1: it right now? Now? It's change. He can drive. He's
Speaker 1: probably at negative fifty right now. But you can drive
Speaker 1: with like forty five something and one eye, Like you
Speaker 1: know what you were saying, And it don't quote. We
Speaker 1: went back to listening, but he was you know, it
Speaker 1: really did affect him and and and I can't imagine
Speaker 1: how he lost his sight, which is really crippling. But
Speaker 1: imagine losing a life, losing a loved one like you
Speaker 1: losing the life of a loved one, but and the eyesight,
Speaker 1: going to sleep being able to see, but waking up blind.
Speaker 1: How traumatic is that? Oh, he handle it so well,
Speaker 1: but he's already a traumatized person. Right, So you got
Speaker 1: a trauma who's having another trauma, you know, and there's
Speaker 1: nothing I can say. There's nothing I can say. And
Speaker 1: I remember looking at him and he is having the
Speaker 1: hardest time one day. I've never been looking at him,
Speaker 1: and I was holding his hand. We're lying there, and
Speaker 1: I said, I know this is hard. I get it.
Speaker 1: I don't even know what you're going through because I
Speaker 1: can't tell you. I've never been blind. Right, Yeah, we
Speaker 1: gotta make a plan because you have too much life
Speaker 1: left and you're gonna wasted if you stay like this. Now, doctor,
Speaker 1: here we go. This is some good talking for a
Speaker 1: person that's going through trauma. You said something so beautiful.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I don't know what it's like to be blind,
Speaker 1: but I can help you. Let's make a plan. Right. So,
Speaker 1: going back to how we treat people who have some
Speaker 1: compounded trauma, not just oh I fell off a bike,
Speaker 1: and skin my knee and that was traumatic. Because listen,
Speaker 1: as I'm learning, doctor Debra, again, I honor you as
Speaker 1: the expert. I've been learning that trauma just isn't like
Speaker 1: seeing an open, bloody wound. You know. Trauma is like
Speaker 1: you said, you could fall off a bike unexpectedly and
Speaker 1: that's traumatic. Or you get news, you read a text
Speaker 1: and I don't know, to me, this is trauma. What
Speaker 1: if you what if your boyfriend done sent you a
Speaker 1: text that he was trying to send to somebody else,
Speaker 1: that's traumatic. Yes, it is. That is a different type
Speaker 1: of trauma. Yeah, because trauma is that something that is blindsided,
Speaker 1: something you didn't expect. Is that it's not the definition.
Speaker 1: But sometimes trauma and stuff you don't expect. So if
Speaker 1: you're looking at it like like post traumatic stresses or
Speaker 1: something like that, right, first, you have to have an event,
Speaker 1: right and that event has to cause you to feel
Speaker 1: like you're in danger or your life is threatened, but
Speaker 1: you have to perceive it. Okay, So going back to
Speaker 1: your text message, I perceive this is dangerous. My life
Speaker 1: is threatened. My livelihood has now changed because man, that's
Speaker 1: a picture I shouldn't the gut or that's a text.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't what's gonna happen to my family? What's gonna
Speaker 1: happen in my life? Now? Do you see where that's trauma? Wow? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So it's how you define it. I always tell people that, right,
Speaker 1: And then there's symptoms that go with it, like you
Speaker 1: have flashbacks, you get scared, you get anxious, heart heart,
Speaker 1: heart pounds, you can't sleep. So that's why I remever.
Speaker 1: I want someone else to find it because I was like,
Speaker 1: you know what, Like you said something bloody, but imagine
Speaker 1: you walk over and it's a bloody leg that yeah, right,
Speaker 1: and that is gonna stick with you and you don't
Speaker 1: even know. And trauma is one of those things that
Speaker 1: creeps because if you don't talk about it, it creeps.
Speaker 1: It swells, and then it comes out in odd ways
Speaker 1: like sexually acting out, physically acting out, substance abuse, hitting people,
Speaker 1: little kids getting anxious. You ever seen little kids to
Speaker 1: pull out their hair? Yes? Pulling out hair, eyebrow? Yes, Yes,
Speaker 1: that's all trauma you know that gets My daughter? I
Speaker 1: love her. She wrote a cook We wrote a cookbook
Speaker 1: because she was a foster kid. But the first time
Speaker 1: I met her, she would carry everything in everything. She
Speaker 1: go with this backpack and I was like, baby, you
Speaker 1: don't have to do that. And it took years. Now
Speaker 1: she has a little clutch back. I'm so brow So
Speaker 1: I said, okay, we're gonna do something bad room, get
Speaker 1: some coach, because yes, you can't handle this little plastic lutch.
Speaker 1: But yes, yes, yes, yes, how it got Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: so sweet, so sweet for you to be in the
Speaker 1: field that she loved, but to still have a heart
Speaker 1: that seems to be able to feel in your field? Right?
Speaker 1: How how do you maintain a heart that can feel? Well,
Speaker 1: that's all God, I will tell you that, like, this
Speaker 1: is what God wanted me to do. It's what he
Speaker 1: made me to do, and that's all I know how
Speaker 1: to do. I mean, I'd love to be a jazz
Speaker 1: and blues singer. That's where you can help me head
Speaker 1: and I can let okay, okay, I'd love to be
Speaker 1: the assistant intern, y'all if y'all in here. Earlier I
Speaker 1: told her, if you're just tuning in, I want to
Speaker 1: be her intern for the summer because she works in
Speaker 1: the field that I dreamed to be in. Y'all, friends, Yes,
Speaker 1: but no that I could be your little singing project.
Speaker 1: But I can't sing, so it ain't gonna go nowhere. Well,
Speaker 1: we gotta see because maybe there is something in you
Speaker 1: that you don't know. You're into acting, maybe we can
Speaker 1: pull some of that out. You teach people, you know,
Speaker 1: how to it's all about the emotions that is friend
Speaker 1: and how you're able to emote. You know that because
Speaker 1: you teach that as well. So yeah, well you know
Speaker 1: what's interesting is that you know, one of the things
Speaker 1: I say is everybody is listening to love right, And
Speaker 1: they're like, what does that mean? Well, you can hear
Speaker 1: me talking. People hear me talking blah blah blah, but
Speaker 1: are you listening to me? And then when you hear
Speaker 1: my words, how do you respond? And if you always
Speaker 1: respond from a place of love, there's nothing that can
Speaker 1: come out of your mouth but something that someone can
Speaker 1: hear or wants to hear because you're listening, taking it
Speaker 1: in and then responding with love. So that's kind of
Speaker 1: how I do this. I always listen and say I'm
Speaker 1: gonna respond with love. And if I think, oh my god,
Speaker 1: that wasn't I will say, I am so sorry, but
Speaker 1: that wasn't something. Wow, Yeah, you have been so amazing
Speaker 1: and so intriguing. You know when I ask you, how
Speaker 1: do you still have a heart that feels Because there
Speaker 1: are some people that have some hard jobs, yeah, therapists, cops,
Speaker 1: the people in certain leadership roles where you have to
Speaker 1: deal with a lot of people and sometimes your heart
Speaker 1: can get hardened, right because of everything that you see,
Speaker 1: Or you have to make certain split second decisions where
Speaker 1: you can't have emotions. You have to go buy facts
Speaker 1: and logic. But it's been a joy sitting here with
Speaker 1: you today. If you can, can you tell us about
Speaker 1: this upcoming project and conference that I'm so excited that
Speaker 1: you get to share with us. Yes, So I have
Speaker 1: the Script Conference coming up on July twenty and twenty
Speaker 1: first the California Endownment the Script Conference dot com, or
Speaker 1: they can just go to my website and there's a
Speaker 1: tab doctor Deborah Warner dot net Doctor Deborah Warner dot net.
Speaker 1: I also have a show coming out in the CBS
Speaker 1: UK called Murder Find the Truth and I get to
Speaker 1: talk about crimes, So look for that if you If
Speaker 1: you go on my website or find me on Instagram,
Speaker 1: I'll have a link tree. I'll have a link right
Speaker 1: to it when it comes out. It's gonna come out, Meg,
Speaker 1: and you'll get to see all the stuff I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: You get to see, y'all. I'm so excited. So SCRIPT
Speaker 1: is Summit on Community Resilience, Intervention, Prevention and Training. That's
Speaker 1: what SCRIPT means. And so you can go to the
Speaker 1: scriptconference dot com. This is going to be absolutely fabulous.
Speaker 1: And your website again, your personal website, well, doctor Deborah
Speaker 1: Warner dot net. Okay, okay, we are so excited, doctor Deborah.
Speaker 1: You've been a joy. We covered a lot of ground.
Speaker 1: I feel like you can give a great word of
Speaker 1: encouragement to someone who feels like I've had too much
Speaker 1: trauma in my life. There's no way I can get
Speaker 1: better and have a great quality of life. What would
Speaker 1: you say, Oh my goodness, that you're valued, that you're loved,
Speaker 1: and that you can do anything. So good, doctor Deborah.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, y'all. She's sitting at Columbia University
Speaker 1: right now in New York and she's got to get
Speaker 1: out of here. But she's been such a joy, doctor Deborah.
Speaker 1: Thank you for checking in. Oh thank you for having me. Yes,
Speaker 1: man will see you again. Oh my gosh, how awesome
Speaker 1: was this? Oh, this was so great, y'all. I promise
Speaker 1: you you will see me in La spending at least
Speaker 1: a day with her, Like it's no joke. I'm so
Speaker 1: sincere because you guys, I never got the chance to
Speaker 1: shadow the county coroner, because I don't think if y'all
Speaker 1: didn't read my book, you gotta read it because it
Speaker 1: tells you of a big choice that I had to
Speaker 1: make as it related to Destiny's Child or pursuing another field.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say too much. You gotta get my
Speaker 1: book checking in, or if you already know what it was,
Speaker 1: go ahead and DM me and tell me what it was,
Speaker 1: all right. So any who, I just love y'all, and
Speaker 1: I hope that you are continuing to do well. It's
Speaker 1: getting warmer out, you know what I'm saying. Stay well
Speaker 1: and get some sunshine, all right, Bye? Bye? I love you,
Speaker 1: And again, you already know what you're gonna do. There's
Speaker 1: nothing you can do about it, all right. I always
Speaker 1: want you to know you're loved. Checking In with Michelle
Speaker 1: Williams is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.