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Speaker 1: Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. All of us here at

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Speaker 1: your computer, Alexa, Google Home so knows any smart TV,

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Speaker 1: on Sirius XM one eleven the Triumph Channel. Free Listening

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Speaker 1: for You runs until May fifteen. Serious XM thank you

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Speaker 1: for letting our listeners listen for free and for being

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Speaker 1: our partner. Joe Exotic the Tiger King the Netflix special

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Speaker 1: was just a show build as a documentary, but according

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Speaker 1: to the people that lived through the reign of Joe Exotic,

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Speaker 1: it was far from the entire story. We go behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes and speak to people that worked there with

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Speaker 1: Joe Exotic at the unlicensed zoo that can describe the

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Speaker 1: abuse to so many animals, some employee's estimating one hundred

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Speaker 1: animals killed and buried there on the premises of Joe Exotic.

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Speaker 1: So what is the truth? Right now, a very special

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Speaker 1: guest Kelsey Sath Saffre who was with Joe Exotic for

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Speaker 1: years and even lost his arm to a tiger. I'm

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, Special investigation of the

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Speaker 1: Tiger King. Crime Stories with Nancy Greece joining me right

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Speaker 1: now is a very special guest, Kelsey Sath Saffree. Kelsey,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. It's a pleasure. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for having me. Kelsey. I've done a lot of

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Speaker 1: studying on you, and I understand you were in the U. S. Army.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, act you handled explosives. Am

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Speaker 1: I correct, every soldier in the army does that, but yes,

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Speaker 1: ma'am you are. It's hard for me to imagine how you,

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Speaker 1: with your military background ended up working with Joe Exotic

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Speaker 1: and basically an unlicensed zoo. How did that happen. I

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Speaker 1: got out of the army in twenty ten in Fort Seale, Oklahoma,

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Speaker 1: and it was a passion of mine since I was

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Speaker 1: a kid. So the only thing I was focused on

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Speaker 1: was getting my hands on a tiger, and Joe was

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Speaker 1: just the first one in the Google search. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's amazing to me, Staff, because when I was little,

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Speaker 1: I dreamed of riding books and riding horses. I never

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Speaker 1: dreamed of holding a baby tiger cub. That's that's so

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Speaker 1: intriguing to me that you grew up with that desire.

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Speaker 1: Where did you first lay eyes on Joe Exotic? It

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Speaker 1: was at it was at his you know, we had

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Speaker 1: emailed back and forth after I had found him and

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Speaker 1: h and found a way to contact him, just about

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Speaker 1: me coming out and just kind of checking it out

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Speaker 1: since I had free time, you know, and then, of course,

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Speaker 1: maybe I don't know, a couple of weeks after our

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Speaker 1: initial contact is when I met him in person. And

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, You're never prepared for that. What

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Speaker 1: do you mean by that? Because I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: you're seeing the Netflix docu drama docuseries. Is that what

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Speaker 1: he's really like? Is that what you encountered the first

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Speaker 1: time you met him. Oh, yes, that's Joe. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess there's no putting perfume on a pig stath.

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Speaker 1: So when you first met up with him, how did

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Speaker 1: that meeting end up in you working with him? You know, Um,

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Speaker 1: there was not much conversation between Joe and I. We've

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Speaker 1: already talked about what I wanted out of that experience

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Speaker 1: or just you know, being at that park. So once

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Speaker 1: we met, and you know, he got me to the animals.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't see anything else, you know, Joe

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Speaker 1: didn't matter. I was six inches from a tiger, So

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Speaker 1: that's why I never left. Once you started working there,

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Speaker 1: what were your duties? Initially? It was just I was all.

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Speaker 1: I was placed on a crew, you know, so it

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Speaker 1: had a crew leader, and I honestly picked up tiger

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Speaker 1: poop and handled raw meat to feed these cats for

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Speaker 1: at least the first year, you know. And I loved

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Speaker 1: every sex shoveling poop and feeding raw meat. You know.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned that about the raw meat, because

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Speaker 1: I don't know how this could have been spliced in

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Speaker 1: in some misleading way. I believe the part in the

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Speaker 1: Netflix series where the animals were not getting enough food.

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Speaker 1: I'll circle back to that. So you start off shoveling poop,

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Speaker 1: beating the animals. Was working behind the scenes different than

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Speaker 1: you thought it would be. I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: thought as far as the work part of it. I

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Speaker 1: just wanted the experience of being able to interact with them.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was born and raised in Hawaii, so

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't know anything as far as being

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Speaker 1: around these animals and anything that entails you know, that experience. Um,

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Speaker 1: So I was learning everything firsthand. Nothing everything was new,

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Speaker 1: and nothing, you know, felt out of place or or incorrect.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know any better. So when you and I

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Speaker 1: taught before, you mentioned that you knew tigers were being killed,

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Speaker 1: right shot? Right? Did Joe Exotic himself shoot the tigers

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Speaker 1: that had been in cages? Right? Yes? Every time? Yea.

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Speaker 1: Is it true that one of your your jobs was

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Speaker 1: to get the animals, lure them, feed them, give them

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Speaker 1: tricks over to the side of the cage. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a job necessarily, it was. It was just

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Speaker 1: a fact. I mean, these animals trusted us. We were

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Speaker 1: there everything. We were their food, we were their love,

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Speaker 1: We were their compassion, their camaraderie. We were there everything,

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Speaker 1: you know, So yes, for sure, if we wanted he

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Speaker 1: wanted that tiger up at the side of the cage,

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Speaker 1: it was us that brought him there. For sure. You

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Speaker 1: told me that it's just like other people's pets, our

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Speaker 1: dog and cat. The moment I wake up, they run

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Speaker 1: to the door and walk with me from the bedroom

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Speaker 1: to the kitchen. They almost no extinctively when you're coming.

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Speaker 1: How would the animals react when they knew you, saff

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Speaker 1: were coming? I mean the same, you know. And don't

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Speaker 1: get me wrong, there were animals on part that didn't

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Speaker 1: like me, that that liked others more than me before

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Speaker 1: the ones that I had relationships with and you know,

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Speaker 1: just created this bond. I mean it was just like

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Speaker 1: your dog or cat at home. You know, you you

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Speaker 1: enter into their presence and they're ecstatic about it. You know.

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Speaker 1: That's that's that unconditional love, you know. So it was good.

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Speaker 1: Is it true that part of your duties getting the animals,

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Speaker 1: the tigers over to the side of the cage included

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Speaker 1: when Joe Exotic shot them, You know, that's that's true.

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Speaker 1: I mean he could never get them to the side

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Speaker 1: of the cage, no matter how hard he tried. So um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's true that that was asked of the employees. I

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Speaker 1: never did it. You know. I was a part of

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Speaker 1: the problem as far as being their own part when

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Speaker 1: I knew it was going on, but I never I

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Speaker 1: never called anyone over to its death. No, there's no

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Speaker 1: way that would haunt me the rest of my life

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Speaker 1: if I had called the animal over knowing it was

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Speaker 1: going to be shot. What would happen when Exotic was

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Speaker 1: going to shoot the animals as far as like on

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Speaker 1: park or would the animals? Yeah, I mean, how would

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Speaker 1: he go about shooting them? I mean it may be

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Speaker 1: normal for everybody else, but for me to shoot a

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Speaker 1: tiger that's been sitting in a cage, just shot it

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Speaker 1: in the head dead, I think that's horrible and I

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Speaker 1: don't understand how would that get set up? Wouldn't everybody

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Speaker 1: know what was happening. When you go up to a

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Speaker 1: tiger with a gun, it's pretty clear something bad's going

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Speaker 1: to happen, right, Yeah. No, I'm absolutely sure that everyone

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Speaker 1: knew what was going on, including myself, And you know,

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Speaker 1: at that point, it's just a look away type of situation.

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Speaker 1: There isn't much that you can do to stop Joe

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Speaker 1: on his own property from doing what he wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm sure everyone one on park knew what

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Speaker 1: was happening. There's just not much you can do about it.

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Speaker 1: Why would he do it? Staff? Why would he gun

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Speaker 1: down innocent animals that have been sitting in cages. They

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Speaker 1: weren't about to jump on him or bude him or

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Speaker 1: hurt anybody. Why? Yeah, yeah, it's it's greed. Um, It's

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Speaker 1: all greed. You know. It was always about the biggest

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Speaker 1: or the baddest with Joe, anything that can bring him

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Speaker 1: to the you know, to the limelight, be the star

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Speaker 1: of the show. Um. And and that's so sad to

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Speaker 1: say out loud, but I know it's true. You know

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Speaker 1: that he was an opportunist. If he had an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to put a tiger in a cage that was more

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Speaker 1: beneficial to him, then he will make that cage empty.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you say he will make the cage empty,

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Speaker 1: let's just be honest and call it what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Joe,

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Speaker 1: Joe definitely, yeah, he did, you know, And it happened

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Speaker 1: since before I was there, and it continued to happen

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Speaker 1: throughout the time I was there, and once I realized

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Speaker 1: that I was more a part of the problem than

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Speaker 1: a part of the solution, I left. So how do

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Speaker 1: you why do you think it went on after after

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Speaker 1: you left? You know, I think, Joe, there's nothing that's

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Speaker 1: going to change Joe. Joe is the way that he is,

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Speaker 1: and and there's nothing that's going to change him. And

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Speaker 1: I know that there was a time, especially that I

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Speaker 1: witnessed UM, that he had compassion for animals. You know,

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Speaker 1: That's that's why I was so stuck on that place.

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Speaker 1: It just seemed like exactly where I needed to be

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Speaker 1: at that time in my life as well. UM. And

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Speaker 1: once I realized that wasn't the case, it took me

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Speaker 1: a while. Um, I was so consumed in what I

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Speaker 1: was doing, and I loved every second of what I

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Speaker 1: was doing that you know, it took me a while,

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Speaker 1: but I came around to it. And now looking back

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Speaker 1: on it, it's just a it's a travesty, you know.

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Speaker 1: And I was have you ever heard about how battered

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Speaker 1: women stay in the home in the family to take

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Speaker 1: because they want to protect the children. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of exotic staff stayed there because they loved the

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Speaker 1: animals and wanted to take care of them. What can

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Speaker 1: you tell me about how Exotic would act after he

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Speaker 1: shot down a tiger or another animal. Yeah, it never

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Speaker 1: faced him, It never faced him. He just it was

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Speaker 1: something he did and then went on with his day.

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Speaker 1: If you didn't hear the gun shoulder, if you didn't

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Speaker 1: see the gun, you would have never knew what happened

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Speaker 1: until you realize the tiger's missing, and the other staffers

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Speaker 1: would just act like that was okay, no, no m

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Speaker 1: But like I said, you know, there wasn't much this

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Speaker 1: you could do. There's no argument, Joe. You know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of people left, a lot of people left a

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Speaker 1: lot of people spoke up, but again they were no

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Speaker 1: longer a part of the park. I feel like, um,

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Speaker 1: the reason that I stayed, you know, was definitely because

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Speaker 1: I always felt the next time I can do better,

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Speaker 1: I can do more. Ignorance in Idiocracy Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, what would happened to the corpses of the

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Speaker 1: animals that he shot? He had a contract um with

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Speaker 1: a Skulls Unlimited. It's a it's it's just a skeleton museum,

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Speaker 1: and that's where most of the skulls went. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever heard the phrase bone collector? Yeah, of course, what

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Speaker 1: is it? A bone collector? Just someone who's in it

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Speaker 1: truck that he would put the skeletons on. And some

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Speaker 1: of the staff nicknamed it the bone collector, right right,

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Speaker 1: it was. It was the guy who came and picked

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Speaker 1: up the bodies. Actually, we never held the tigers long

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Speaker 1: enough for them to be skeletons. Um. That was actually

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Speaker 1: why they were being sent to the museum. UM, so

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Speaker 1: they can break it down and and you know, get

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Speaker 1: them to these properly clean skeletons. Um. And of course

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Speaker 1: Joe had access to all these exotic animals that most don't,

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Speaker 1: so they were there. Um, as far as I know,

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Speaker 1: they were the stons. I really don't know if he

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Speaker 1: sold them. I can only imagine there was some kind

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Speaker 1: of financial benefit. Joe doesn't do anything without, um, some

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Speaker 1: kind of financial gain from it, you know. So, Seth,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about something, and I

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Speaker 1: don't mean to bring up more bad memories, but what

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Speaker 1: happened to your arm? What exactly happened? Twenty thirteen? I

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Speaker 1: was just doing chores typical Saturday morning, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: and I stuck my hand into a full grown males

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Speaker 1: tigers ketchpen um to release him from the ketchpen and

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Speaker 1: into his main enclosure. And he grabbed a hold of

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Speaker 1: my hand and shredded, shredded my arm up with his claws.

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Speaker 1: So it was about fifteen to twenty seconds of of

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Speaker 1: him showing me. You know, he's a tiger. Why did

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Speaker 1: he do that after all the times you had done

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Speaker 1: the very same thing, right? You know? UM, I can

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Speaker 1: only imagine. I obviously don't know the exact answer to that,

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Speaker 1: but I can only imagine it was it was October,

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Speaker 1: early October. UM. I had a thick coat on, I

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Speaker 1: had gloves on. UM. You know, we give these animals

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Speaker 1: stuffed animals all the time, we give them toys for enrichment.

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine he thought it was a toy.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't be sure. I have worked with that animal before,

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Speaker 1: and I have worked directly with that animal after UM,

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Speaker 1: he was you know, That's what I was trying to do,

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Speaker 1: is get him back into his main enclosure. Um. But

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Speaker 1: we don't really make it a habit for certain animals

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Speaker 1: to to feed through the cage. Um for that reason exactly,

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Speaker 1: you know, UM, you know, exotic animals. You just there

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Speaker 1: are click serious half. I am convinced from that A

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Speaker 1: lot of I think I'm not convinced of But I

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Speaker 1: could tell that the animals were hungry, that they were

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Speaker 1: not getting enough food, especially one scene when they said

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Speaker 1: there were not enough chickens to go around. How often

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Speaker 1: did the animals go hungry? Tell me the truth? Right, yeah, no, Um,

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Speaker 1: there was There was not really a time where they

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Speaker 1: were starving. You know, we fed them every single day. Um,

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Speaker 1: and in the wild, you know they're eating you know,

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Speaker 1: one hundred pounds of meat every two weeks. But it's

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Speaker 1: what they're used to, is the twenty pounds of meat

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Speaker 1: every single day. So yeah, you don't. You don't give

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Speaker 1: a four hundred pound tiger they're twenty pounds of meat

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Speaker 1: that day. They're they're not gonna be happy about it.

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Speaker 1: But no, not a single animal was starving on that park,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, well, there were times they were starving

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Speaker 1: because they were still alive. But right, I'm convinced they

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Speaker 1: were not being bad enough. Right, Why why wasn't there

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Speaker 1: enough food to go around? Resources? Um, you know, we

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Speaker 1: did have a contract with certain stores that we would

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Speaker 1: get there off the shelf meat. Um. And because of

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Speaker 1: Joe and and and Joe's actions, you know, we lost

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Speaker 1: a lot of those contracts. So once that went away,

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Speaker 1: now we're paying out a pocket. It becomes nearly impossible,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um. And that's the reason. What do you mean,

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Speaker 1: because's actions that you lost food for the tigers because

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Speaker 1: of Joe's actions? What do you mean? Yeah? You know, um,

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Speaker 1: he just he made some statements and uh. And then

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Speaker 1: obviously you know, the whole rumor of him using the

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Speaker 1: meat that was donated um for financial gain in his restaurants.

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Speaker 1: That was it. That's all they needed. And they pulled

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Speaker 1: that contract quicker than you could say it. So, okay,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, using the donated meat for restaurants what? Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he opened two restaurants. He opened a pizza restaurant and

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Speaker 1: a bar down the road, a bar and grill down

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Speaker 1: the road from the park. The pizza restaurant was on

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Speaker 1: the park property. And you know, the first the first

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Speaker 1: week of any of these establishments being opened, it was yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's using the meat off of the meat truck, you know,

288
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Speaker 1: And is it donated meat? Yeah? It was a bad deal,

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Speaker 1: you know, and the only the only losers was the animals.

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Speaker 1: It donated meat for the tigers got used at the restaurants. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was the rumor. Yeah, okay, you know, I know

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Speaker 1: you have told me that you felt guilty for the

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Speaker 1: role that you played with the animals with them getting

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Speaker 1: killed or not getting enough to eat. You didn't kill

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Speaker 1: any animal and you did not starve any animal. But

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Speaker 1: how did that make you feel being in part of

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Speaker 1: seeing animals killed at point blank range? In fact, I

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Speaker 1: believe he told me that we're tranquilized and then shot dead.

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Speaker 1: Were just depended on the day. Um, It's it's weird

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Speaker 1: to say, but you know, Joe wouldn't waste tranquilizer if

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Speaker 1: he's just gonna end their life. So I highly doubt

302
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Speaker 1: he is tranquilizers honestly, did just shoot him point blank? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, a monster is a relative term, and uh,

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Speaker 1: and Joe fits the bill, you know. Um, I've seen

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Speaker 1: him do a lot of good and I know he's

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00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,040
Speaker 1: done a lot of bad. And that's really where I'm

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00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,919
Speaker 1: at with the whole thing, is is aside from the

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Speaker 1: whole Joe you know association. I know that I was

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Speaker 1: the one there with those animals and he kills me,

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Speaker 1: he kills me, but I can only move on staff.

311
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Speaker 1: I read and I don't know if this is true,

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Speaker 1: but I want you to tell me where Exotic would

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Speaker 1: dark gun a mommy up to five times to make

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Speaker 1: the mommy go to sleep so he could take the

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Speaker 1: baby out of her arms and sell it as young

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Speaker 1: as ten days two weeks old while the baby's still nursing,

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Speaker 1: because the mom wouldn't give away the baby or let

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Speaker 1: him take the baby, said a dark gunner. Yeah, yeah

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Speaker 1: he would. Um, Yeah, Joe, Joe wanted those babies. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he bread those tigers for a reason. He wanted those

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Speaker 1: babies away from their mom. And if you can't imagine

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Speaker 1: anyone trying to take your babies away from you and

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Speaker 1: how you would react, imagine that in a four hundred

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Speaker 1: pound tiger. Yeah. Yeah, it was a bad deal of

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Speaker 1: my cold dead body. That's what she said too, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's that's what these tigers said to Um. I've never

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Speaker 1: seen one. I've never seen one just walk away. I've

328
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Speaker 1: never you know, I've seen some kind of ignore their babies.

329
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Speaker 1: But you try to take those babies from them, and

330
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Speaker 1: they'll come after you. So yeah, it was always a

331
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Speaker 1: bad deal. What would happen? How how would that happen?

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Speaker 1: You know, he, like I said, he bred them um

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Speaker 1: for a reason. So we knew the cages that were breeding,

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Speaker 1: We knew how long gestation was, we knew exactly we

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00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 1: could time it to the week when those babies were

336
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 1: going to be there. Um. And for the most part,

337
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: you know, he used the same breeding pair. So uh,

338
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 1: it's just a continuous vicious cycle of cubs and and

339
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 1: breeding and cubs and breeding and um. It just gets

340
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 1: ridiculous with Joe. But you know, Joe, Joe was it

341
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: was greed in the end, you know, for me it

342
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 1: was it was a lot of greed. And so would

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Speaker 1: the daff What would the mom do when she'd wake

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Speaker 1: up and the babies be gone? Yeah, you know he

345
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 1: never used tranquilizers. Um. He darted them, just just empty darts.

346
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,120
Speaker 1: But it's still it's still the same concept. You're you're

347
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 1: just picking at her, You're just picking at her to

348
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: push her out of there. Um. And eventually she just

349
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 1: cows cowers to her catchpin, you know. Um. And that

350
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 1: was the routine. Every time second she's in her catchpin,

351
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 1: you lock her in there. You have full access to

352
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: those clubs without that mom having any access to you.

353
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Speaker 1: And every time it happened, every time, I can't imagine

354
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Speaker 1: that the mother tiger could would would not react what

355
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 1: she got free. No, she reacts, she reacts. You know,

356
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 1: it's not it's it never happened in two minutes. There's

357
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,199
Speaker 1: there's lots of videos out there where these these mothers

358
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Speaker 1: or they come after us, you know. Um, if it

359
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: wasn't for that cage, I mean, yeah, there wouldn't be

360
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 1: a story to tell. They fight with everything they have.

361
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Speaker 1: But um, I gotta tell you something that's making me

362
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: feel sick to my stomach to think that you dart

363
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Speaker 1: the mother over and over and in the minute you

364
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 1: could take the baby take it. Yeah, and it would

365
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: happen over and over and over to the same mother tiger.

366
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 1: Yeah for the most part. Yeah, we we had the

367
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 1: same breedge pairs. When they stopped breeding, Joe gets another

368
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 1: breeding pair. So did it ever concern him that that

369
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: is against the law to sell those baby tigers? I

370
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: think you know he was so Joe was so focused

371
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Speaker 1: on what he wanted and what he needed. Obviously, um

372
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Speaker 1: as we can tell where he sits right now. I

373
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Speaker 1: don't think he felt the law applied to him. Crime

374
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace Sath. Let me ask you about

375
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: Carol Basket. Everybody is interested in Carol Basket, and I

376
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 1: get it. I know he would say he wanted her

377
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: head in a jar. I mean, he's document is saying

378
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 1: that on one of his YouTube shows, wanting her head

379
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,640
Speaker 1: cut off, wanting her shot off her bike trail while

380
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: she's out all by herself on a bile. Was that

381
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: just for show? Or do you believe he really wanted

382
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 1: Basking dead? Oh? I mean, Joe was a talker for sure,

383
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,959
Speaker 1: but there's no doubt in my mind that you know,

384
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: he thought life would be better off without her, no

385
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: doubt in my mind. No, why do you say that?

386
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: What did you observe that makes you say that? Every

387
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: day started with, you know, Carol, every day continued with Carol,

388
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,479
Speaker 1: and every day ended with Carol. Everything that came up

389
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: was Carol's fault. You know, every issue that arises, whether

390
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: it had to do with his personal life or to

391
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: do with the park, you know, it was Carol's fault.

392
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: And after a while you just start to tune it out.

393
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 1: I mean, you have to to get anything done do

394
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: you believe he would have killed her with his own hands? No, no,

395
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 1: Joe's no, Joe does not have that in him. I know,

396
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: I know this. I know this man. I worked with

397
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: him for almost ten years. What do you mean he

398
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: doesn't have it in him? That's not what a jury said. No,

399
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure that the jury is very convinced,

400
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: just just like I am, that he wanted or dead.

401
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: But I know, man to man, he doesn't have it

402
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: in him to do it himself. You don't think he

403
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: had the guts to do it himself. Absolutely not. No,

404
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: I believe Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's exactly what it is.

405
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 1: I didn't know. I can say that, you can say

406
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: the truth. Yeah, he definitely didn't have the balls to

407
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: do it himself. But would he hire somebody to do it?

408
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 1: That sounds more of Joe's alley for sure. You know.

409
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: I mean anything that he can get anyone else to do. Right,

410
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: According to those audio tapes, he said, I just gotta

411
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: go sell a bunch of tigers. His words, not mine.

412
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, anything Joe can can get

413
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 1: anyone else to do, that's that's what he's gonna do.

414
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: I've done so much think happened with that fire. Step

415
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 1: what do you think happened for that fire? Yeah, the fire,

416
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: I mean it was quite the coinkie thing. The coincidence.

417
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: He was out of town one night for I think

418
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: a wedding or a funeral, and that night one of

419
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: the structurers there that had all that video in it

420
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: of his reality show all went up in smoke. And

421
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: I believe there were alligators in there too. There was

422
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: there was There was eleven animals in that building, in

423
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: the same building. Um. What I think of it is

424
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: is I can I can just hope that the man

425
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: I stood next to for almost ten years didn't put

426
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: animals lives, you know, in a situation where they ended

427
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: for his benefit. Um, But I guess I guess that's

428
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: just that's what he does. Well, who else do you

429
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: think could have done it? Who wanted who would have

430
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: done it? Who would have benefit? No one, I mean

431
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: no one. That was that was footage of everything for years, um,

432
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: everything on that part. So if there was anyone who

433
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 1: would have benefited from it, it's him. And if there

434
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: was anyone who would have been destroyed by it, it's him.

435
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: So when you had your arm ripped off, off by

436
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: the tiger. I wanted to ask you this, What was

437
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 1: exotics response to that? How did he act when you

438
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 1: were hurt so badly? Yeah? In front of me? Um,

439
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: you know he was. He was pretty decent. I mean,

440
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: it was just hanging there, we'll get your help, you know. UM.

441
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: And my reaction was just I just knew I needed

442
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: to stay calm so that everyone else didn't panic, you know.

443
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: But of course I didn't see anything he did outside

444
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: of my view. But honestly, I I didn't expect anything different.

445
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: You know, Joe was always you know, it's all about Joe.

446
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: So what do you mean you didn't expect anything different?

447
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: What is your understanding? What have you learned? Was his reaction? Yeah?

448
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: You know, we all have different priorities. I was. I

449
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: was kind of focused on um now bleeding out and uh.

450
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: And and you know the customers and the employees that

451
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: had to visually see what I had just been through, UM,

452
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: their their welfare and well being. UM. And then of

453
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: course you know the tiger, who seemed pretty pleased with himself. UM.

454
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: But you know, his his priority at the time was

455
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: it was financial, you know, recovery, UM and wardrobe. So

456
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: I guess we're different. What what now, financial recovery and wardrobe?

457
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: For sure, it was his priorities. What do you mean

458
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: by financial recovery and wardrobe? That's what he was worried

459
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: about after you got your arm bitten off, That's that's

460
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: what he was worried about. Yes, um, you know, I

461
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: knew it was going to take a toll on the park.

462
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously everyone had to go home that day.

463
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: So whatever he had made in sale was that day

464
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: up until that point. At ten am in the morning, Um,

465
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: he had to return and everyone left. They shut that

466
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: park down for at least the day. Um. And and

467
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,479
Speaker 1: and I know that's what he meant by that. On

468
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: top of the fact that it was it was going

469
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: to be a story. It was going to be out

470
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: there now everyone knew about this incident. Um And I

471
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: know that he also implied that that was going to

472
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: affect his you know, financial gain as well. So he

473
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: told you that he did not He did not tell

474
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: me that. Um. I learned that as a viewer. So

475
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: h oh, I see, I see. Did he take care

476
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: of you financially after you lost your arm? No? No,

477
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: I didn't ask him to. I didn't I didn't care

478
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: for the money I wanted back on part. I wanted

479
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: to just keep doing you know what I have sacrificed

480
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: so much for. Um. I wanted that and it was

481
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: really just, um, is it's sort of a verification for

482
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: me that this is this is what I want, you know.

483
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: So that's what I was focused on. There was no

484
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: financial compensation from Joe. No, and you never thought to

485
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: sue or anything like that because you wanted to stay

486
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: working there. Not really, um, just because I wanted to

487
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: stay working there. But I didn't ever look at finance

488
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: or suing or compensation as as anything that I wanted

489
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: to pursue, just because it took away from being able

490
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: to work, you know, being able to interact with these animals.

491
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: And not to say that Joe's the only place I

492
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: could have done that at, but it was the place

493
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: that I was doing it at, you know, and I

494
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: was doing at I was doing it there for almost

495
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: three years up until that point. So Yeah, when you

496
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: watch the Netflix documentary, right, was that real? Did it

497
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: show the truth or a slice of the truth or

498
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: what was that? Yeah? No, Um, as far as the

499
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: lives of the people, yes, Um, there was a lot

500
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: of sense of you know, they they sensationalized a lot

501
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: of things. As far as um housing. You know that

502
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: there was housing provided for the employees. It wasn't trashed housing, um,

503
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: but the employees trashed it. I mean, everyone's an adult

504
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: and they lived the way they want. So yeah, it

505
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: was it was crazy to see it. Um. Kind of

506
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,719
Speaker 1: highlighted the worst of the worst, you know. Um. But

507
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: as far as the people, it was spot on. That's

508
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: that's exactly who they are. When you heard the jury

509
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: verdict that exotic was found guilty, do you think they

510
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: got it right or wrong? Yeah? No, I mean it

511
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: it was obviously right. Um as far as you know,

512
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: the wildlife um uh convictions, and then there was no

513
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: going around the murder for hire. You know, I knew

514
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: that that was gonna um, it was gonna drop on

515
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: his head. Um. But you know, I've known Joe since

516
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: two thousand and ten, and even before two thousand and ten,

517
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: Joe had an issue with Carol um. And he's been

518
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: talking the way he's talked, you know, on that documentary

519
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: about Carol since I met him, and probably before that. UM,

520
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: So I definitely know he was encouraged. You know, he's

521
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: got to have been pushed into going this far. Um.

522
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: It was like the straw that broke the camel's back,

523
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: you know. UM. So it's just unfortunately way he played out.

524
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: But what am I doing now now? Yeah? Yeah, I UM.

525
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: Up until about two weeks ago, I was working just

526
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: a regular warehouse job here here in Redlands, California, UM,

527
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: until they shut us down because of the covid UM. Yeah,

528
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: I was just trying to get back to life, you know.

529
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: UM took a minute to find myself and get back

530
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,479
Speaker 1: to life and move on the bills, don't you know.

531
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: Bills don't wait around for anybody either, just life. So

532
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: why did you leave Exotic? I genuinely was there for

533
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: a reason. I was there to to I mean, I

534
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: keep saying it, to fight the fight, um for for

535
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: me and my future, you know, whether it's people or

536
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: or not. UM. I wanted these animals to be a

537
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: part of that all the time. I wanted to interact

538
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: with them, and I wanted my kids to not only

539
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: see them in picture books or read about them like dinosaurs,

540
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, I want them to be able to touch, feel, see, um.

541
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: And And that was honestly why I stuck it out.

542
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: You know, for for the for the animals, I mean

543
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: for everything there. I left because I mean I didn't

544
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: see that being a progressively positive thing for the animals.

545
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I invested so much of myself in that

546
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: park and in that experience. I invested, you know, blood, sweat, tears,

547
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: my left hand. Um. And in the end, I realized

548
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: that I don't even know what's good or best for

549
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: these animals. I have no idea. Still till today, I

550
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: don't know. Um. And again, if I'm not a part

551
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: of the solution, I'm I'm straw that broke the camels back.

552
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: Why did you one day leave? Yeah, I had a

553
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: conversation with Joe after coming back from a road trip

554
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: and it was, unfortunately, the day that his husband killed himself.

555
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: So it was just a bad conversation during a bad

556
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: time about you know, bad things. So that's when I

557
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 1: decided to walk away and I never looked back. Now, Sath,

558
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: you know you can't just say that to me. You

559
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: may not ask you what are you talking about? A

560
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: bad conversation about bad things and you leave your dream job?

561
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: What bad things? I told him? I mean I basically

562
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: just kind of called him out on on the entire experience,

563
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: I mean ten years of my life. So where is

564
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: this going? What is our mission? What are we focusing on?

565
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 1: You know, is there anything that we're doing to change?

566
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 1: Are we going to go from quantity to quality? Are

567
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: we gonna change the fact that, you know, we don't

568
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: have enough staff members to cover the amount of work

569
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: that needs to be done. We don't have the resources

570
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: to provide. You know, what are we going to do

571
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: about this? Nothing? I got nothing. I couldn't do it. Well,

572
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,320
Speaker 1: what did he say? I mean, I know the animals

573
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: were going hungry. I know that we're not enough workers. Right.

574
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: What about that road show? Mage? You confront him the

575
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: road the road trip that I took, it was a

576
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: personal trip for me, and I kind of just did

577
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: some reflecting as far as what am I doing with

578
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: my life? You know, is am I really making a difference?

579
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: Or am I just being selfish? Because I get to

580
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 1: love and hold on tigers every day? And the conclusion

581
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: I came to was, I'm being absolutely selfish if I

582
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: don't at least speak up. You know, they can't speak

583
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: up for themselves. I gotta say something. If not, it's

584
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: just wasted time. You come back, You confront him about

585
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: what lack of food, lack of workers, it's everything, lack

586
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 1: of room. I don't know how to keep a tiger

587
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: in that cage when they want to be free. And

588
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: did he give any answer? Did he curse you out?

589
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: What happened? Oh? Yeah there was, there was some very

590
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: choice words, Nancy. Um, but for the most part, he

591
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: wasn't even focused on that. And again, like I said,

592
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: it was bad timing, but I had to get it out. Um,

593
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: he wasn't focused on it. He didn't hear me, he

594
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: didn't care. It was all about what he had just lost,

595
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: what he had just gone through. And that was you know,

596
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: that was the end of the conversation. I never looked

597
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: back crime stories with Nancy Grace. When you look back

598
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: on your time with Joe Exotic, what mental image, what

599
00:36:54,760 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: vivid men image stays in your mind of Joe Exotic? Yeah, desperate,

600
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: you know, I see it, just desperation every day. You know.

601
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 1: I used to think it was like motivation and a

602
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: driving force. You know. Um, Joe figured out, He'll always

603
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: figure it out, you know, And now I realize it's

604
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: it's it was always just reaching man, just constantly reaching

605
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: for things, just out of his reach, you know. Um U,

606
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: that's what I see. I have one last thing to

607
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: ask you. I read an account where Exotic would whip

608
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: the baby tigers to train them. Hm. And that was

609
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: from an eyewitness. Is that true? Yeah? It is? It is.

610
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: He believed in tools. Um. So yeah, he would always

611
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: have a whip on stage. Obviously. You guys know we

612
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: carried guns on park. Um. So yeah it is. It's

613
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: it's how he Um. It was his way of showing

614
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: us how to work with these these babies, you know.

615
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: And um, he did. He did it in front of people.

616
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: He was trying to teach them. Um. Thankfully I came

617
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: up with my own way. You know. I never used

618
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: a whip, not once, but even babies whip babies. He did,

619
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: he did, He used it. Um. And and don't get

620
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: me wrong, he wasn't whipping them. Um. It's you know,

621
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: it's a it's a horse whip. So that's why it's

622
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: called a whip. It's more of a of a touch

623
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: type of thing. Um. It's still unnecessary. I mean, you

624
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: genuinely don't need it. In my opinion, I've worked with

625
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 1: tigers without one. Um. So yeah, well, if there's nothing

626
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: wrong with it? Why didn't you do it? I just didn't.

627
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: I didn't need to. I honestly didn't need to. I mean,

628
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: these animals are still smart, man, they and they're giving

629
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: this to you. You know you're not making them do

630
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: you can't make I gotta disagree with yourself. I don't

631
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: think there's anything good about putting a whip on a

632
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: baby tiger. No, I'm glad. There's nothing good about it,

633
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 1: right right, Yeah, there's nothing good about it. Um. I

634
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 1: Just like I said, you know, you can get things

635
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: done by just forming a bond with these animals. I mean,

636
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: I think that was the biggest draw for me, is

637
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: that these animals were willing to work with me. They

638
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: were willing to be in my presence. That is amazing.

639
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: You know, you don't get that from humans humans. Do

640
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 1: you think other people are going to be charged? For instance,

641
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: if exotic was convicted of illegally selling endangered species, somebody

642
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: had to be buying them. The staff had to know

643
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: what was going on and enable it. Other people owning

644
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: working unlicensed zoos. Do you think they're going to be

645
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: more charges down the road. I mean, I'm sure if

646
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: they dig deep enough, if they're going to find a

647
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: lot more players in this. Yes, I mean it's all.

648
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: The entire animal industry is connected. Every single person is connected.

649
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: There's not a person in America that doesn't have an

650
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: animal or a cat from one of these other zoos

651
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: or one of these other sanctuaries that there's not a person. So, yes,

652
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: what are your words, too Exotic today? What are your

653
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: words to him? Now? Yeah? You know, I don't. I

654
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: don't really have much to say to him. Um. I

655
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to see him die in prison. Um, but

656
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want anyone to die in prison. I knew

657
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: Joe personally for ten years, and uh, and that's where

658
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: I leave our relationship. And you gotta every time you

659
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: look down at your left hand, you've got to remember

660
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: the conditions right at the zoo and the way the

661
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: animals were treated. I mean, that's a forever reminder of

662
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: what you went through and what the animals went through, right,

663
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: And it's also a forever reminder of what I sacrifice

664
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: for them. So works hand in hand. I guess is

665
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: it true that Joe Exotic gave you a handful of

666
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: documents to sign when you left the hospital. No, No,

667
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: that was definitely misconstrued. You know. Um, they asked me,

668
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: how do I know my hand was still fine functional,

669
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 1: and I said, because I was still able to write

670
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: my name. I wrote it just on a piece of

671
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: like hospital paper. I wrote my name out just to

672
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: prove that I was still able to use my hand

673
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: before they amputated it. So it was definitely misconstrued into

674
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: oh man, he made him sign things. No I didn't.

675
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: I didn't sign anything, you know, Okay, if you had

676
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:26,240
Speaker 1: to give me your best estimate how many tigers or animals,

677
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: because I know they were more than tigers. Did Joe

678
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: exotic keel right over the period of ten years that

679
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: I was present, man a hundred easily, easily, And again

680
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: it's not all big cats. You know what else it was?

681
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,720
Speaker 1: It was anything that he needed a cage for Nancy. Um,

682
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: if he needed a cage that a wolf was in,

683
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: that wolf had to go. If he needed a cage

684
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: that a raccoon was in, that raccoon had to go.

685
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 1: It was anything that Joe need the cage for what sath?

686
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: What need more animals? You know, for more animals that

687
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: he thought was going to be more beneficial to him

688
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: If he had four cages that had raccoons in it,

689
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: and he had an opportunity to get in to get

690
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,760
Speaker 1: an animal in that he didn't have one park. Yet

691
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 1: three of those cages are going to have raccoons in

692
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: it and the other one's not. You know, it's as

693
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: simple as that. I mean, Joe Joe's not complicated one bit.

694
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: It was it was it was opportunity and selfish, you know,

695
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,399
Speaker 1: it was greed. So he would kill them to make

696
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: more money. Not all the time, he would have always

697
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 1: killed them. Unfortunately, there was a lot of times where

698
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: he would just it. It was a raccoon, It let

699
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: it go. It just let it go. Yeah. So you

700
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: think over the time you were there, he Joe Exotic

701
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: killed about one hundred animals. Easy. What do you think

702
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: about the possibility of a presidential pardon for Joe Exotic? Right, Um,

703
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. That's up to the president.

704
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: I guess well put you know, South, I wish you

705
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: nothing but good things, all good. Appreciate that. I appreciate that.

706
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: Thank you, the Tiger King. The investigation goes on