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Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's The Velvet's

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Speaker 1: Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson. Okay, Ricky Close is here,

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Speaker 1: relationship writer. I actually found you via Instagram. I've been

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Speaker 1: following you and stalking you for quite some time, so

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Speaker 1: it's always nice. Yeah, it's nice to actually connect with

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Speaker 1: the people that you feel like you know because you

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Speaker 1: follow them on Instagram. But you have your Instagram with

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Speaker 1: Anxious Hearts Guide where you give inside and tips on

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Speaker 1: anxious and avoidant attachment styles. You also speak from personal experience,

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Speaker 1: and I love hearing about your relationship before we get started.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to I feel like I said this

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Speaker 1: to you before the podcast, but I feel like most

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Speaker 1: people these days in twenty twenty three have heard about

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Speaker 1: attachment styles, Like if you open Instagram, I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's everywhere, and so maybe they have some surface level understanding.

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Speaker 1: But could you kind of just address, like what attachment

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Speaker 1: styles are, what the different ones are, and kind of

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Speaker 1: give us basic foundation for each one before we get

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Speaker 1: into this conversation. Yeah, let's do that. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a very hot topic right now, so you do see

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Speaker 1: it floating around all over Instagram. But one of the

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Speaker 1: dangers of that is that everybody has kind of the

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Speaker 1: surface level understanding of it. Everybody's trying to diagnose themselves

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Speaker 1: or their partners. So hopefully the listeners today can get

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Speaker 1: a sense of a bigger understanding for what attachment theory

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Speaker 1: is and what it does and what it describes, and

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Speaker 1: maybe also what it doesn't do. I think there's we're

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Speaker 1: missing a lot of that on Instagram. So oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: well that makes me excited. Okay, yeah, okay, cool. So

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Speaker 1: attachment theory is how a psychologist describe sets of behaviors

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Speaker 1: that we tend to engage in in intimate relationships when

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Speaker 1: we're trying to seek safety. So just from that right there,

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Speaker 1: I want everybody to understand that this is not like

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Speaker 1: your hardwired personality type. And I think that's one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest myths out there on Instagram, is like, if

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Speaker 1: you see the characteristics of an anxious attacher or or

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Speaker 1: if you see the characteristics of an avoidant attacher and

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Speaker 1: that sounds like your partner, These aren't like hardwired things

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Speaker 1: that we can't find our way out of. And it

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Speaker 1: seems like there's a lot of misunderstanding there and it

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Speaker 1: makes me so sad. There's a lot of hopelessness too.

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Speaker 1: Like I if somebody identifies as an anxious attacher and

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Speaker 1: they see the bullet points sing, clingy and desperate and

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Speaker 1: they're like, ah, that's who I am, and that's who

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Speaker 1: I'll always be, and they start to view their partner

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Speaker 1: as this person who's always distancing too. Yeah, let's squash

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Speaker 1: that myth today here on this episode. Okay, we're describing

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Speaker 1: sets of behaviors that we tend to engage in that

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Speaker 1: we can kind of train ourselves out of. Love's hopeful. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love that hope because and I actually think that's

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Speaker 1: what I'm I'm it's kind of mentioning, like I've been

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Speaker 1: your page for a long time. I think that is

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Speaker 1: what I see. Is this like good? Oh yeah, because

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Speaker 1: I've told you, like I've done some work around this stuff,

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Speaker 1: and it when you start diving into it, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get safe, and for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: something happened along my journey that kind of tricked my

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Speaker 1: brain into thinking, you know, I'm not safe, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm having I'm bringing that into this relationship. So there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of ways that you've mentioned, so far is

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Speaker 1: anxious and avoidant. So are those the two main attacks

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Speaker 1: of the two? Well, you know what, let's go into

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Speaker 1: the different styles. There's actually three main styles, and honestly,

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Speaker 1: secure attachers are supposed to be the biggest group. So

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Speaker 1: we've got isn't that wild to someone? I'm like, someone

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Speaker 1: told me it was like fifty percent of people or

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Speaker 1: secure attachers, and I was like, where are they? Though? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: don't you know what? Totally secure attachers tend to partner

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Speaker 1: up pretty young. Those are the people who are splitting

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Speaker 1: off in their twenties, like getting married, getting married young

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Speaker 1: and having pretty stable, pretty normal looking, safe feeling relationships.

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Speaker 1: So we're not I'm in my thirties, we're not encountering

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Speaker 1: lots of those people in the dating field in our

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Speaker 1: thirties because they've widely paired off. Yeah, the research shows

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Speaker 1: it's roughly fifty percent. So let's talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the secure attachers. These people are comfortable with closeness.

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Speaker 1: Relationships feel kind of easy for them. They're not scary

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Speaker 1: unsafe places. They experienced closeness with their parents and in

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Speaker 1: early romantic experiences that made them view relationships is feeling safe, nurturing,

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Speaker 1: and healthy and predictable, so they're not spinning their wheels

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out why someone said something. Because in

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Speaker 1: their mind, a relationships kind of a safe place, and

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Speaker 1: if it starts to feel like an unsafe place, they're

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Speaker 1: probably going to set some boundaries down or exit the

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Speaker 1: relationship if it's not working for them. That's the dream,

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Speaker 1: right you and me, and maybe lots of people listening

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Speaker 1: to this are like, wow, that is not my experience.

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Speaker 1: So I guess first, I'm probably going to talk about

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Speaker 1: avoidant attachers a little bit. If you're watching a movie

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Speaker 1: and it seems like one person's chasing and one person's

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Speaker 1: desperately trying to get away and maintain their independence, that

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Speaker 1: would be an avoidantly attached person. Probably, these people tend

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Speaker 1: to find safety in themselves. They might describe themselves as

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Speaker 1: a lone wolf, or they're like fiercely independent. They're kind

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Speaker 1: of afraid to ask for help. They have a generally

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Speaker 1: negative view of relationships because in their experience, relationships are

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Speaker 1: places where they have not been able to get their

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Speaker 1: needs met. People are unreliable in their experience. The only

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Speaker 1: way to feel safety is in themselves. Their core fear

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Speaker 1: is a fear of closeness. So so their big goal

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Speaker 1: is to when when when the stuff hits the fan,

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Speaker 1: Avoidant attachers are gonna distance and try to calm themselves

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Speaker 1: and just try to take care of business themselves because

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Speaker 1: people let them down. That's there, that's their worldview, Okay,

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Speaker 1: which might describe maybe the people that you've tried to

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Speaker 1: have romantic relations yeah, okay, same same, right, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe not. There's like one I can think of who wasn't,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, everyone else awesome, okay, and I'm awesome. Awesome,

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Speaker 1: it's a terrible experience. Awesome because I can relate to that, right, yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: Avoidant attachers are like they're like um my kryptonite, Like

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Speaker 1: I can't stay away from them. M I actually admire

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Speaker 1: a lot how independent they are and and they I

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Speaker 1: don't know, they just seem omnipotent, like they can do

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Speaker 1: anything they want. And there's something really appealing for that too.

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Speaker 1: Anxious attachers, which is which is how I relate and

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Speaker 1: probably you from the sound of it. So an anxious

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Speaker 1: attacher is somebody who only seems to find safety in

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Speaker 1: other people. We lack self trust, We're very nervous and

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Speaker 1: afraid that people are going to abandon us. And this comes, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: when we're really young, from kind of inconsistent care, or

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Speaker 1: what we perceive as inconsistent care. We might have noticed

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Speaker 1: that our parents were very close and loving and then

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Speaker 1: they were gone, so in our mind, the only way

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Speaker 1: to stay safe is to be constantly looking out for

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Speaker 1: signs that they're going to leave. We might have felt

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Speaker 1: abandoned by a romantic relationship when we're when we're young

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Speaker 1: in our first romantic relationships. It can come from that

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Speaker 1: place too, So yeah, our way of finding safety is

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Speaker 1: becoming hyper vigilant looking for signs of abandonment and trying

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Speaker 1: to stay ahead of those. Also maybe taking ourselves and

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Speaker 1: putting ourselves in our needs aside so that we can

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Speaker 1: just be Johnny on the spot for our significant other,

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Speaker 1: you know, doing whatever they need to feel safe and

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Speaker 1: important and loved, because we're protecting ourselves against our core

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Speaker 1: fear of abandonment. Okay, sounds from my arm. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I know that. When I first learned about all

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Speaker 1: this stuff, I was like, oh, my gosh, that's one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent me, and I'm doomed, Like that's what I thought.

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Speaker 1: I was like, my only prayer is to find somebody

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Speaker 1: who's secure and very comfortable with closeness so that they

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Speaker 1: can give me all the closeness that I've been missing

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Speaker 1: from these people who are running away from me. And

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people think that. I get

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Speaker 1: a lot of comments on the page from people going like,

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Speaker 1: a screw Avoidance. I don't ever want to talk to

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Speaker 1: them again. I only want someone who's secure or maybe

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Speaker 1: another anxious person so that we can just live in

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Speaker 1: our little burrito cocoon and never leave each other. And

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Speaker 1: those comments make me really sad too. Um, why make

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Speaker 1: it sad if Avoidance are doomed and not worthy of

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Speaker 1: being loved, so we're anxious because we are at two

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Speaker 1: sides of the same coin, right, Well, honestly, yeah, go ahead, No,

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say, let's talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: that because obviously most people that I see doing this

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Speaker 1: kind of work, including me, um, And it's it's interesting

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Speaker 1: because I do feel like I'm moving into a more

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Speaker 1: secure attachment style like yeah, and we can get into

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Speaker 1: that a little bit later. But I just feel like

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Speaker 1: most people who talk about this, I've had some personal

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Speaker 1: experience with it, Like you know, they're you see therapists,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing it, but most of them too will say

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Speaker 1: like this was me back in the day or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And so I kind of want to give listeners a

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Speaker 1: little background into your story if you're open that, and

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Speaker 1: just like what your relationships looks like, because I think

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Speaker 1: they we can talk about what your relationship is now

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Speaker 1: and maybe the difference absolutely those dynamics cool, okay. And

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Speaker 1: I always try to tell this story, this story as

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Speaker 1: if the other people in it are listening, like, I

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Speaker 1: want to be very compassionate and kind about anyone who's

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Speaker 1: involved here. Yea. So I got married very young, okay,

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Speaker 1: and um, my marriage was pretty good until the end

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Speaker 1: when it was less good. Um, and we really we

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Speaker 1: really got into that pursuer distance or dynamic like in

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Speaker 1: a big way. Um. And I love psychology, I always have.

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Speaker 1: So I started reading a lot to try to figure

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Speaker 1: out what was going on with us, and I still

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Speaker 1: it's such an anxious move, it is. I was like

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Speaker 1: grasping for straws there. Yeah. I stumbled on attachment theory

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Speaker 1: and I even showed it to my ex husband. I

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Speaker 1: was like, check this out. There's this dynamic where somebody's

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Speaker 1: always trying to get close to the other person's always

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Speaker 1: trying to get away. Yeah. Even when he saw it,

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Speaker 1: he was like, oh my god, that's us. That's exactly

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Speaker 1: what we're going through. But unfortunately, the main book that

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Speaker 1: I was looking at at that time was Attached. And

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Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, I love Attached. It's a wonderful book,

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Speaker 1: but there's no hope and Attached Attached is like, you

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Speaker 1: are this, you are this, and these people suck together.

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Speaker 1: They are not going to have any kind of healthy thing.

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Speaker 1: And I don't believe that at all. Now the author Levine,

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Speaker 1: he's even gone on to say, I wish that I

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Speaker 1: hadn't written it that way. I know there are so

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Speaker 1: many divorces and breakups because of the way that I

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Speaker 1: presented this information. Oh wow, I didn't know that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: m yep. And I was so glad when you put

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Speaker 1: that out there. But I was like, the damage is

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Speaker 1: already done. That your book's one of the reasons I

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Speaker 1: got divorced. So we did end up splitting up because

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Speaker 1: we didn't even with couples counseling, we didn't have any

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Speaker 1: hope that we could change this dynamic. So then there

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Speaker 1: I am early thirties, thrown back into the dating field,

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Speaker 1: which was so weird because the last time I dated

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Speaker 1: before that was like the early two thousands. It was

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Speaker 1: like a dating on a different planet. And I end

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Speaker 1: up meeting my current partner now, Chris. Even though I

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Speaker 1: was doing so much research because I just loved attachment theory,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't stop reading about it. Um, I found myself

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Speaker 1: a super attractive and very interesting raging avoidance and that

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Speaker 1: was that was Chris, Like a magnets though right it was.

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Speaker 1: It was a whole party. And you put with these

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Speaker 1: like active attachment styles and a ring with a million

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Speaker 1: other people, they'll find each other. It's just the way

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Speaker 1: it works. No, he had he had like a glowing

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Speaker 1: aura around him. When I saw him, I was like,

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Speaker 1: that's the one I want. There he am. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: was still very embroiled in my anxious attachment even though

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Speaker 1: I knew what it was. I wasn't far enough into

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Speaker 1: my work that I was really finding my way out

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Speaker 1: of it yet. Yeah. So um, I started dating him

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Speaker 1: and we went immediately into this like hardcore pursuer distance

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Speaker 1: or dynamic, like even worse than in my marriage. And

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Speaker 1: that's not to say that we had a bad relationship,

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Speaker 1: but like all the classic things, me texting too much,

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Speaker 1: me looking for a relationship label way too soon, me

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Speaker 1: wanting to know all of his romantic history so that

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Speaker 1: I could figure out ways that I wouldn't mess up,

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Speaker 1: and and him working too much, dodging my phone calls,

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Speaker 1: going out of town and not saying goodbye, and not

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Speaker 1: you know, giving me any heads up about where he was.

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Speaker 1: We were a mess, like a mess, a mess, yea.

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Speaker 1: And we kept kind of being a mess and and

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Speaker 1: breaking up and coming back together, never more than a day.

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Speaker 1: People always ask that, like, oh, did you ever split

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Speaker 1: up for three months? No. We would have a fight

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Speaker 1: or an argument and we would say, well, that's it.

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Speaker 1: We just sucked together. We're in our thirties, we're not

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Speaker 1: going to waste our time. And then twenty four hours

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Speaker 1: would go by and we would call again and be like,

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Speaker 1: this is I don't want to not be with you.

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Speaker 1: I just don't want to have this argument. So instead

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Speaker 1: of instead of sitting him down and going you're an avoidant,

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Speaker 1: and here's all the things that you need to do.

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Speaker 1: I knew from my reading how bad that was, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know what, screw it. I'm just

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Speaker 1: going to spend the next like solid year working on myself,

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Speaker 1: working on these things, reading all the books relating to

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Speaker 1: the topics within anxious attachment and seeing if I could

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Speaker 1: do anything about that, because when we can change our

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Speaker 1: own side of the dynamic, it changes the entire atmosphere

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Speaker 1: of the relationship. And I thought, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: leave this guy. I'm not ready for that. So I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to work on myself and see what happens.

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Speaker 1: And I got to tell you. A year and a

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Speaker 1: half in to this work, he came to me and

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Speaker 1: he sat down and he said, I don't know what's

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Speaker 1: going on, but you're a completely different person than the

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Speaker 1: person I met in the best way, and I want in.

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Speaker 1: He's like, I don't know what you're doing with your time,

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Speaker 1: and you're in all this weird reading, but like you're

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Speaker 1: so calm and it feels so safe talking to you now,

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Speaker 1: and you're not up and down with all your emotions.

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Speaker 1: He's like, I don't know what you're doing, but let's

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Speaker 1: do it. I want to figure out what's going on too.

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Speaker 1: And then he started reading books with me, and he

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Speaker 1: would have talks with me about the relationship. So hopefully,

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Speaker 1: hopefully that's very hopeful for people. He was the avoidantist

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Speaker 1: of the avoidance that I've ever met. Yeah, and just

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Speaker 1: by making myself a safe place to land, someone to

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Speaker 1: talk to who's not accusing him of things or honestly,

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Speaker 1: my reading about avoidant attachment helped a lot too, because

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Speaker 1: then I was able to take the things that he

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Speaker 1: was doing one hundred percent less personally. Well, you just

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Speaker 1: had the big nail on the head because I think

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Speaker 1: as a person who's been anxious in certain relationship, and

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Speaker 1: to me, what I'm also looking at now is like,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if you feel this way, but

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Speaker 1: I don't feel ANXIO just in all my relationships. And

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Speaker 1: so it was like starting to kind of recognize when

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Speaker 1: it comes up for me. And it's typically like when

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Speaker 1: there's an avoidant on the other side of that dynamic,

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Speaker 1: it'll just happen. And so if I'm unaware, then I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of just operating this constant trigger. But I like

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Speaker 1: what you said about not personalizing it, because the more

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Speaker 1: I've learned about avoidant behavior too, I'm like, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: their way to get to safety, Like I want to

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Speaker 1: go connect and I want to talk it through, and

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Speaker 1: I just want to get to the other side of

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Speaker 1: it and know that we're good. They need to like retreat,

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Speaker 1: and so it's that finding that balance. But I want

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Speaker 1: to also ask because I feel like the thing that

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Speaker 1: I struggle with the most in this is just the

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Speaker 1: fine line between staying with yourself and not abandoning your

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Speaker 1: own needs versus like being able to show up and

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Speaker 1: respect another person's needs as well. I love. That's so different.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, a start, Yeah, navigation, let's do it. Um,

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Speaker 1: Let's let's pick a really concrete example. Okay, let's pick

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Speaker 1: so my partner, he loves to travel, and he loves

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Speaker 1: little adventures and sometimes his adventures. Oh, he's also very spontaneous,

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Speaker 1: so sometimes he doesn't plan his adventures out. He just

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Speaker 1: gets it in his head that he's going to go

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Speaker 1: do something. Um, especially if things are getting uncomfortable between

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Speaker 1: us two, those are the best times for him to adventure, right,

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Speaker 1: because it gets his distance. Yeah, So I knew that

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Speaker 1: if things were getting especially if they were really good,

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Speaker 1: you know, like if we spent the whole weekend cuddling,

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Speaker 1: that would be like a signal for his brain to

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Speaker 1: get get the heck out. What is that? The second

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Speaker 1: I start to feel good, where did you go? Okay,

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Speaker 1: so let's let's say that we've spent the entire weekend

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Speaker 1: all snuggled up and it feels really great. We've been

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Speaker 1: talking about our feelings, right, Oh man, that triggers them

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Speaker 1: more than that. Oh God. So then and then Monday

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Speaker 1: rolls around and his brain is like, get some distance, right, So,

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Speaker 1: knowing a little bit about avoiding attachment, I figured it

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Speaker 1: was coming right, like, all right, this was a good weekend.

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Speaker 1: He's gonna want some distance now, and I can if

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Speaker 1: I call him on Monday and I'm like, hey, wasn't

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Speaker 1: that a great weekend? Yeah? It was. I was like

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Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, I'm just packing my stuff. I'm heading out.

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Speaker 1: It's like cool. It's like, hey, I love that you

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Speaker 1: are getting out doing something that you love. Like that

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Speaker 1: is so you like, go have an adventure. But and

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Speaker 1: this is really scary. Brace yourself's anxious hearts. This is

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Speaker 1: not going to be fun to hear. I had to

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Speaker 1: learn to set boundaries with him, like, like the moment

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Speaker 1: you start feeling like you need to jet and take

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Speaker 1: some adventure if you want to be with me and

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Speaker 1: you want me to be happy, and I think you do.

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Speaker 1: You gotta tell me, like, I can't be somebody who

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Speaker 1: just calls you and you're gone for three days all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden. And I was like, if that's what

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Speaker 1: you want to do, if that's like who you are

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Speaker 1: and who you want to be, like, I'm okay with that,

335
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:06,960
Speaker 1: but it's not going to work for me in a

336
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,400
Speaker 1: romantic relationship, will be platonic buddies or nothing at all.

337
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Speaker 1: If that's how it is. If you want me as

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Speaker 1: your romantic partner, you just got to do that. And

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Speaker 1: that's scary because a lot of people are listening to

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Speaker 1: this going crap. I might have to let this person

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Speaker 1: go because they might make the decision that they're like, nah,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to check in with someone, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to. I don't want to compromise and

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Speaker 1: listen to somebody's boundaries. But honestly, like I'm telling you,

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Speaker 1: I hate to sound callis, but you don't. You don't

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00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,359
Speaker 1: want to be with somebody who doesn't care about making

347
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Speaker 1: you feel safe in a relationship, or maybe you don't

348
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Speaker 1: want to. You can't. It's not sustainable. I think that's

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Speaker 1: exactly right. Well, I love the idea of the boundary

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Speaker 1: setting because that sort of that hits on the line

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Speaker 1: that I was talking about. But like I hear what

352
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,399
Speaker 1: you're saying, and it's like, Okay, he would jet off

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Speaker 1: and leave and that would be really hurtful and weird

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Speaker 1: and give me kind of anxiety. Yeah, it also feels

355
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Speaker 1: different than like if he was y'all got really close

356
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Speaker 1: that he was like, oh I gotta go like cheat

357
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: or something, which I've been. That's different. Yeah, there's there's

358
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,639
Speaker 1: definitely lines, and I mean that was an extreme example maybe,

359
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,439
Speaker 1: but like you know, not really though not really a

360
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Speaker 1: lot of a lot of people listening. Who um unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: Oh I'm going to hate myself for saying this, but um,

362
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,160
Speaker 1: sometimes avoidance are more likely to cheat because they're desperate

363
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Speaker 1: to get that distance, and sometimes inserting another person into

364
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,880
Speaker 1: the situation is like an excellent way to do that.

365
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,439
Speaker 1: So just a wall, Yeah, it's a wall, But that

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Speaker 1: can be a boundary too though that's like a no,

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Speaker 1: it totally is steal break out for me. Yes, as

368
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,239
Speaker 1: anxious attachers or even secure attachers, we have to be

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Speaker 1: sure of what our what our boundary is and be

370
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Speaker 1: willing to let somebody go who can't fulfill that. If

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Speaker 1: you're somebody who needs a message every day or a

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Speaker 1: phone call every day and somebody is not willing to

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Speaker 1: do that, we have to be willing to let that

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Speaker 1: person go. If it's somebody who's not willing to give

375
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Speaker 1: their little side partners up, we have to be willing

376
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Speaker 1: to let that person go. If it's someone who's married

377
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Speaker 1: who's not willing to get divorced to be with you,

378
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 1: you have to be willing to let that person go. Well.

379
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Speaker 1: And the crazy thing is is, as I hear you

380
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Speaker 1: say that, I would imagine a secure attacher would be

381
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 1: like duh, yeah, yeah exactly, And I can relate to

382
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Speaker 1: that now, like this is how I know I've grown

383
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,400
Speaker 1: in my life is because that is how I date Now, Yes, good,

384
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Speaker 1: thank you. But it's taken me really addressing why I

385
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,400
Speaker 1: was so scared to say, what like looking at well,

386
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 1: what happens to me if they go like that was

387
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 1: something that I couldn't even get to that question with

388
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,880
Speaker 1: myself because it would just ignite my nervous system so

389
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 1: much at the thought of them leaving, even though the

390
00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 1: relationship could be terrible, Like yeah, good, like I was miserable,

391
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: but at eight, the idea of them leaving felt so

392
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,400
Speaker 1: scary to me that I was like, no, we can

393
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 1: work through this. Are like another book, you know, Okay, yeah,

394
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: go ahead, go ahead, let's dive into that too. So

395
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,159
Speaker 1: so the fear, the fear for anxious attachers is that

396
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: if we've got so much of our self worth and

397
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 1: our identity tied up in that person, right, if they leave,

398
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: we're gone. I always relate it to somebody whom. I

399
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: relate the anxious attachers to someone who can't swim, Like

400
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 1: we're all hanging out in this ocean together, but the

401
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: anxious attachers can't swim. We're we're holding on to people

402
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 1: who we believe can swim, and if they swim away

403
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 1: from us, we're drowning. People are our lifeboats, and um,

404
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 1: that's why we do anything that we can to keep

405
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 1: holding onto them, because we literally feel like we may

406
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: die if they if they leave us, you know, or

407
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: at least are who we think we are, will die.

408
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: And that's tefying. So I talk about this a lot

409
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 1: in my book. Our salvation here is learning how to swim,

410
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 1: and the way that we learn how to swim is

411
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: that we spend a lot of time and energy building

412
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 1: up an identity for ourselves that's separate from anybody else.

413
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: That might ring true for you in your work on

414
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: codependency right um self forth is that's tough to talk about,

415
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: but some concrete examples of ways that we build up

416
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: self forth are exercise exercises, a fantastic way to spend

417
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: a little bit of time every day showing ourselves that

418
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: we are worth working on. Right. I just love it

419
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: because it's concrete and you get you get to see

420
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 1: actual results from it, so that part's nice. Self worth

421
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: work could be spending extra time with friends and family,

422
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: people that were sure care about us, They feel great

423
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: to be around, they care about We know that they

424
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: have our best interests at heart, So yeah, so that's nice.

425
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: It can also be the work that we do journaling,

426
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: like looking into ourselves. I always mentioned journaling, but if

427
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 1: you're not a journalier, you can draw pictures, anything that

428
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: you can do to ask yourself, what do I like?

429
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: What do I need? What things feel good, what things

430
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: don't feel good? Figuring out like kind of meeting yourself

431
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: and figuring out who you are, gives yourself a very

432
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 1: solid identity, and all those things help us swim so

433
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: that if somebody else does decide to leave us, we

434
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: know that we're still there treading water and we're okay. Yeah.

435
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if you relate to this, but one

436
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 1: of the main things that has helped me in the

437
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: past couple of years is just realizing that I was

438
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: getting into these relationships so focused on not being abandoned

439
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: by my partner, but not realizing that the whole time,

440
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: I was abandoning myself and so like my I was

441
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: asking someone else to do for me something I wasn't

442
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: willing or capable of doing for myself. And so the

443
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: more that I've started to heal my personal relationship with

444
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: myself and actually pay attention to myself, like not just

445
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 1: go out and try to seek it through even work,

446
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: I can find different activities to kind of like find

447
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: my worth in um but actually just like sitting with myself,

448
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 1: asking myself what I mean, what I need, like literally

449
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: giving myself a hug that I do this every morning,

450
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 1: like I'd give myself a hug and say I love

451
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: that I started doing that too. How awkward was it

452
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: at first? Oh? My god, I'm hugging myself. I feel

453
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: so lame it was, But I don't know if you

454
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: feel this. The second I do it, it's like I

455
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: get tingles in my gut, Like it's like my body

456
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: just wants to be acknowledged, you know. And so the

457
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: more I fill up in those ways which sound would

458
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: sound so frustrating to me back in the day when

459
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: people would be like, oh, well, your self worth is

460
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: just low, I'm like whatever, I like, yeah, so how

461
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: do I fix that? Right exactly? Like I didn't really

462
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 1: realize the broken relationship with myself. And so anyway, the

463
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 1: more that I've done that, the less weight relationships in

464
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: general even have all my life, Like, yeah, I can

465
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: kind of let people ebb and flower in relationship so

466
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: far like that I've been dating again, it's like, great,

467
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: people come in, but I do have a very like

468
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: if this is what I need and if you can't

469
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: do this, not in a harsh way at all, totally

470
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: very like loving the most surrendered way I've ever done it.

471
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's been interesting because people can kind of

472
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: come in and out and I can respect their journey

473
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, isn't that freeing? So? Oh my god,

474
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: the amount of time. Like the other thing I wanted

475
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: to touch on is if you're listening and you're like, oh,

476
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: I'm not codependent, because like that sounds pathetic, Like to me,

477
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: anxious attachers sound desperate sometimes, and we are, but it's

478
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: not like a person like it doesn't look like you

479
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: necessarily would think it would look like like it totally

480
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: doesn't that I'm telling you, Yeah, go ahead. Like the

481
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: folks who I knew in my life outside of my relationship,

482
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: were like, oh, Ricky, you're you're such a caring person.

483
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: You're so great, Like clearly everybody that you're with or jerks,

484
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 1: that's what's going on exactly right, Like they couldn't even

485
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: see inside of it. How I didn't have any hobbies.

486
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: I didn't have any desires or preferences. So it's like

487
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: in their mind like that person's a jerk for not

488
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: wanting to do the few little things that you like

489
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: and want. But I was like, I wasn't telling all

490
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: those people, like I'm not telling my person about anything

491
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: that I want or need at all. You know, Yeah,

492
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 1: so you're asking for your needs at all, but you're

493
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: expecting them to meet them, got it. Yeah, And then

494
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: being resentful when they don't and they don't even know

495
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, right, And that felt like kind of

496
00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: a tangent, but it was I'm sorry, I'm sorry a

497
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 1: little off topic there. Um, Well, I want to talk

498
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: a little bit about because anxious attachers I do find well,

499
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: like the way one of the ways I used to

500
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: self soothe was like, I'm going to get the most

501
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: information that I possibly can about this. And you mentioned

502
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the podcast that it's really important

503
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: not to just go to someone and be like, well,

504
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: you're avoidant clearly, so it's incredibly important you will. You

505
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: will push that person faster, You will push them away

506
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: faster than if you send them thirty texts in a

507
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: row if you're okay sitting them down and tell hey,

508
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: And I did this to Chris, my poor partner. I did.

509
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: I did, at my worst time, sit him down and go,

510
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: I know exactly what's wrong with you and exactly what

511
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: you need to do to fix it, and if you

512
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: want to be with me, you should fix that thing.

513
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: You can bet. I did not get to hang out

514
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: with him a lot after that. He was like, do

515
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: I even like this person who's telling all the things

516
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: that are wrong with me? Okay, so it's that's why.

517
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: It's because it just feels like you're telling someone. Oh yeah,

518
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: it's so interesting because in my head, if I was

519
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: ever doing that, the only motivation for me is to

520
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: save the relationship, I'm like, oh, for sure, it was

521
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: I don't get me wrong, Yeah I want I didn't

522
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: feel like I was criticizing him. I was like, I'm

523
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: here to save you, you know. But to him, he

524
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: was like, holy cow, thanks for telling me all the

525
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: ways I'm defective and yeah, and and honestly, I try

526
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: to tell people too. How would you like it if

527
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: you in a state where you're not feeling very self aware,

528
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: had somebody sit you down and say, I've pinpointed exactly

529
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: what's wrong with you and why you're unlovable, and here

530
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: are all the things that you need to do to

531
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: make someone love you. Like, yeah, that would feel very good. No,

532
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel good at all. We have words every

533
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: month on the podcast that's kind of the themes, and

534
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: our word this month is metamorphosis. So you know that obviously,

535
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: just to me looks like evolution change what you can

536
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: grow into. And um, I like that topic with this

537
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: topic kind of like what you said at the beginning

538
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: of just like finding the hope in this and that

539
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: it can happen. So let's move into that a little

540
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: bit about just kind of how we can, if we

541
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: do identify with either anxious or avoidant, how we can

542
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: move into more secure attachment, and maybe some tips or

543
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: just even like what the journey looks like, because I

544
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: know it's not good every day, right, I know you

545
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: guys have it's certainly not a work of this situation,

546
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: but maybe talk through some of the tools that really

547
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: help you in your relationship. Yeah, totally. Um So, finding

548
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: the self and diving into yourself is it's scary work

549
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 1: for anxious attachers because we worry that anytime that we

550
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: turn the focus back to ourselves, we're creating disconnect between

551
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: ourselves and our partner. And that's it's it's strangely the opposite.

552
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: I hate to say that too, because I like, I

553
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: know I'm losing people right now. The time that I

554
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: spend in my room working on my journaling is time

555
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: that I'm not texting my partner. It's time that I'm

556
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: not nagging him for more togetherness. And so not only

557
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: am I building up my own identity that was lacking.

558
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: It gives him time to miss me, and that's the

559
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: kind of thing that makes him initiate. That's when I

560
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: get the phone call like hey, you want to go hiking. Hey,

561
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about you. So the time that we

562
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: spend nurturing ourselves and building our own identity is time

563
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: that actually brings an avoidant type partner. It makes them

564
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: feel safer to approach us. And I know not everybody

565
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: here is probably paired with an avoidant type, but it

566
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: works the same for our secure partners too. Anxious hearts

567
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: can tend to overwhelm secure partners as well. So anything

568
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: that we do like Okay, I'm going to go in

569
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: a new gym and make a commitment to do that

570
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: every Tuesday, that time on Tuesday where we're doing our

571
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: own thing is it's safety building with our partner. They

572
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: can see that we're our own person and that builds

573
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of intrigue and curiosity and makes them

574
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: want to approach us and come close and feel safe

575
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: to do that. We're not the drowning person anymore who's

576
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: looking at people as lifeboats. We're sitting swimming on our

577
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: own and it makes other people feel good and safe

578
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: to come close. So this is where I hear that

579
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: fine line thing again though, and I just just dawned

580
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: on me of like, okay, well, this is where you

581
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: would set boundaries because doing that, focusing on yourself and

582
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: actually having the intention to connect with yourself, because I

583
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: also can be guilty or it was guilty in the past,

584
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: and being like I'm going to go do this and

585
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: see if it makes them. Yes, yes, okay, thank you

586
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: for bringing that up. Yeah, it cannot be a tactic

587
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: to bring somebody close. I'm just trying it, just trying

588
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: to give everybody hope that like you're worried about the disconnect,

589
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: but that's actually the kind of thing that makes people

590
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: feel safer to come close. If your intention is to

591
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: do it to break to make them come closer, they

592
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: will feel that. They will smell it like a dog, right,

593
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: and it will work. No, So make sure that the

594
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: thing that you're doing is not purposely try Look how

595
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: independent I am. I don't want you right like that.

596
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: It's got to be a genuine desire to connect with yourself.

597
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: And for me, yes, for me, it's a surrender too.

598
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: It's like, stop trying to think that the only way

599
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,479
Speaker 1: you can find peace in this world is if this

600
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: partner comes to you right this minute, in the way

601
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: you want him to and at the exact time, Like

602
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: I think, then you do miss out on the good

603
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: stuff in relationships a lot of times totally. But then,

604
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: so what if, for instance, like I have a friend

605
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: in a situation where she is a big texter and

606
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: wants to text more and her need they're not necessarily

607
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: getting met with her avoidant partner, and similar to what

608
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: you said earlier, you're mad, you're resentful, you're whatever. So

609
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: how what is a good way to ask for what

610
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: you need? Like I've suggested, like it would really mean

611
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: a lot to me to connect in the morning and

612
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: before we go to bed or something like be specific.

613
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 1: But do you have any input on that kind of thing? Yeah,

614
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: I totally do. Directness and vulnerability are the two tools

615
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: that you want when you're trying to make what feels

616
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: like a difficult ask to your partner. Directness meaning we

617
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: don't want any hinting, We don't want you asking for

618
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: less than what you actually want. Figure out exactly like

619
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: your friend would figure out exactly what kind of frequency

620
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: of texting would feel good to her and she needs

621
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: to be super direct about that. Yeah, instead of just

622
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: this is exactly what I need, because that might not

623
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: be received well either. Vulnerability can cushion that blow a

624
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: little bit too. Okay, it feels it feels like kind

625
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: of kind of unsafe and creuddy for me when I

626
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: when my phone is just sitting there there's no message.

627
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: I know that you're able to text me like sometimes

628
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: that makes me feel afraid, and it also makes me wonder, like, man,

629
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: is this the kind of relationship that's going to feel

630
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: good for me long term? I know that you want

631
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: that for me because you clearly care about me. So

632
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: what do you think about a texting frequency you know

633
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: of this? What do you think how would that work

634
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: for you? Get curious about their situation too. Maybe there's

635
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,479
Speaker 1: a reason that they don't that they don't text that much.

636
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: That's different from just they hate you and don't want

637
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: you to get your needs met, right, you know? So

638
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: let's add curiosity into that directness. Vulnerability and curiosity are

639
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: your tools for those difficult asks. How important is it

640
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: for you and your partner to have to equally have

641
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: awareness about your own attachment styles? Because yeah, like what

642
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: do you wait, how it's zero percent important for us

643
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: to have anywhere close to the same Yeah, I just

644
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 1: I just had to interject with that, what do you Yeah,

645
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people think this stuff's not

646
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: going to work unless both of us know exactly what's

647
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: up and we're both putting the exact same effort. I

648
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: want to say. I mean, especially with the work that

649
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: I do, I'm focusing on this stuff like ninety percent

650
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: at a time, right, like, way more than normal people

651
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: are focusing on this stuff. My partner gets exposed to

652
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: it a lot because of what I do, but I

653
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: would say he's at like a ten or a fifteen

654
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: percent work level with this stuff. It's very low. So

655
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: I I think if you like attachment theory, if you

656
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: like the idea of self work, that is awesome, strap

657
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,439
Speaker 1: on your your diving cap and dive in as deep

658
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: as you want. You don't need to expect your partner

659
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: to do the same thing because your work in that atmosphere,

660
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: your work in that area is going to change the

661
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: atmosphere of the relationship, and if it doesn't, you might

662
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: be with the wrong person. Because my partner doesn't know

663
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: very much at all about attachment theory. But he does

664
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 1: care about the things that I need and want, So

665
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: when I express those, he's pretty darn good about about listening. Yeah.

666
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: So when you're expressing your needs, your boundaries, and you're

667
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: staying curious and all the things you've already told us,

668
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: you're finding that you're getting a positive response. Yes, And

669
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: and that doesn't mean that he does those things, okay,

670
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: So that, okay, that's good. Like, let's set up some

671
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,479
Speaker 1: realistic expectations for people. My partner does not text. It's

672
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: not a thing for him. He's over forty. He hates technology. Right,

673
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: it's not going to happen. And he told me that

674
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: very early in the relationship, just like I hate texting.

675
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: That's something you got to know about me right up front.

676
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: So sometimes so if I were to come to him

677
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 1: four years in, I could. I could come to him

678
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 1: and say, look, Chris, I really want more texting between us.

679
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: That would feel so good for me. Sometimes I feel

680
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 1: the same script. Sometimes I feel alone when there's no

681
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: text coming in. Right, it doesn't mean that he abandons

682
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: who he is, which is someone who hates technology and

683
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: is very confident that they want nothing to do with it.

684
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: The compromise there is that he takes my hand and

685
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 1: he says, I know that that's something that you care about,

686
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: but babe, that's not who I am. Like, is there

687
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: something else that I can do for you that would

688
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: make you feel great? Because he's like, and we've had

689
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: this exact conversation. He's like, I love phone calls. He's like,

690
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: I'm a phone call guy. He's like, I'm not gonna

691
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: be texting you heart emojis. He's like, that's not what

692
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: I do. But if I'm thinking about you during the day,

693
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: would it work if I gave you a phone call

694
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: and just said, hey, babe, I'm thinking about you right now.

695
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: And I was like, you know what, let's try that

696
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 1: because I'm very texty. I love texting. Yeah, And I said,

697
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: let's try that. Let's see if that works. And now

698
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: it's been four years and I've gotten like, you know,

699
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,439
Speaker 1: I can count how many texts I've gotten from him,

700
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: But man, that man calls me constantly, and that's our

701
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: that's our compromise. So sometimes you don't get exactly what

702
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: you want, but if you have a good partner, they

703
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: do care about you. Feeling like the needs being meant

704
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, well, that's what I was gonna say. I

705
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: heard so much of that because really, I don't know,

706
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: that's so much of like it's probably not about actually

707
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: about the texting, it's about what it's totally not to

708
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 1: exactly that that's not happening. And so when his response

709
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: that you just gave to me, immediately my nervous system

710
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: would be like, okay, he hears me, I've totally I'm safe,

711
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: and yeah, I can be flexible about the ways that

712
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 1: I'm getting things. It's just like the bigger picture of

713
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: am I scene? Am I heard? Am I safe? Totally?

714
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: So your friend and who feels like she's not getting

715
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: enough texting, there's a need beneath that, Like nobody's gonna

716
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: die if they don't get texts. You know, she's got

717
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 1: to figure out what the need beneath that is and

718
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 1: perhaps there's a different way that they can work together

719
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 1: as a team to get that need met. Even it's

720
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: maybe even acknowledging what he is doing too. Yeah, you know,

721
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: like oh, totally you know that I wasn't the call. Yeah, yeah,

722
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 1: Like no, I wasn't thinking about all his phone calls.

723
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: I was just asking for more texting, even though this

724
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: is this is a dude who calls every single morning,

725
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: every single night, and usually in the afternoon too, And

726
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: I was like, where are my heart emoji texts? You know?

727
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: And you're so focused on that thing, Like when we

728
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: get triggered, we get so focused on the thing we're

729
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: not getting that you can't see all the good that

730
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: you are, right because the thing we're not getting. Yeah, sorry,

731
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: I totally I'm all fired now. It's because the thing

732
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: that we're not getting is proof to us that they

733
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: don't care about us, you know, But that's our own narrative, right,

734
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: it's exactly. Yeah, it's just finding the I feel like

735
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 1: sometimes my way of making myself safe as being hyper vigilant,

736
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,720
Speaker 1: and so it's like, I'll have a narrative he doesn't

737
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: actually care about me, and in the less the little

738
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: text that I get or whatever, I'm like, see, I

739
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: knew it, knew it. I knew it. I knew it,

740
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: And so then you miss all the other ways that

741
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: you are getting totally probably met. Do you want to

742
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: hear one weird thing that I did, Yeah, in in

743
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 1: in my year where I was like, screw it, I'm

744
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: just gonna work on this myself. Yeah, I pulled up

745
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: the notes app on my phone, and every single day,

746
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: if I noticed him doing anything but I could even

747
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: remotely interpret as kind or loving, I wrote it down.

748
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: I didn't write down the bad things. I just wrote

749
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: down the good things. And in the moments where I

750
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,959
Speaker 1: was like, dang it, I don't even like this guy.

751
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 1: He doesn't text me like I would tell myself stuff

752
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: like that, I would pull open that note app and

753
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: it would be like, Chris made me tea this morning

754
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: without me asking. Chris called me four times this morning

755
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: because he found something cool and wanted to tell me

756
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: about it. Um. And then it really helped bring it

757
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: into perspective. I was like, I'm looking for way reasons

758
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: that he doesn't care about me when he shows me

759
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: constantly that he does. I love that. So writing down

760
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: is very helpful. Yeah, that's a really good tip. Well. Also,

761
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: we have the book. It's called Anxious Hearts Guides. Anxious

762
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: Hearts Guides, Yeah guide, Yeah, one as Okay, there's a

763
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 1: lot of I didn't realize that this, you know, I

764
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: didn't realize it was a tongue twister. Yeah, anists Guide

765
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: that's you. And then there's a workbook. That's twenty one

766
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: Day Anxious Attachment Challenge a workbook. It's um, yeah, it's

767
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: kind of a workbook. It's twenty one chapters and every

768
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: single chapter is only like two or three pages. The chapters.

769
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 1: You take it day by day, so every day you

770
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: read like two pages. Each one addresses some aspect of

771
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: anxious attachment. Okay. And I just love those twenty one

772
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: day challenges because they're like little bite size ways to

773
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: work on a different, a different thing every day. One

774
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: of my favorites that I did was it was a

775
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: twenty one day like self Love Challenge. I think that's

776
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,479
Speaker 1: what it was called. And man, it was just nice

777
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: to not have to focus on doing the same thing

778
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 1: every day for twenty one days, but something different every day.

779
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: That made me feel like, Okay, I'm working on this thing. Yeah,

780
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: and it's fun to write a bet. And I was

781
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: gonna also say, if you're one of the people listening,

782
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 1: that might you know fit in that box that we

783
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: were talking about where you don't know what you like.

784
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: I remember when I first started doing my work on

785
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: cod of Fendency, people would be like, well, what do

786
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: you like to do? And I was like, literally I

787
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, I've so out of touch with myself

788
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: that I didn't even know the things that I enjoyed doing.

789
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: So these kind of things might be a good way

790
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: to start navigating that. Even giving yourself this one little

791
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: challenge each day is spending time with yourself, Yeah, I

792
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: mean it totally? Is it? Totally? That's my That's why

793
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: I'm so into journaling too, because it's my hour or

794
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 1: so that I spend with myself during the Yeah, listening

795
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: to my own thoughts. Yeah, I'm going to put the

796
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: link to both of those books in the description of

797
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: this podcast. But what can people find in the Anxious

798
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: Heart Guide? Anxious Hearts Guide? See, I did it, and

799
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: maybe I need to rename it. It's just saying all

800
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: the essays. I think it's a lot. Yeah, it's a mouthful.

801
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 1: In in my book, I spend the first maybe third

802
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: talking about attachment, specifically anxious attachment too, just so that

803
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,399
Speaker 1: we can get a little more a little more information,

804
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: we can have more awareness on Okay, I'm doing this

805
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: thing and that's like a very anxious thing. Yeah. The

806
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,879
Speaker 1: middle part of the book really dives into self work work,

807
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: self worth work, and building up our relationships with other

808
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: people around us, lots of things that have nothing to

809
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: do with the romantic relationship, because we're looking to build

810
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: that self trust with ourselves, the main thing that anxious

811
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: attaches are lacking. The last part of the book actually

812
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 1: talks about engaging in romantic relationships in healthier ways, So

813
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: that's the closeness. Once you develop that sense of self,

814
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 1: then you can move toward developing healthy closeness, which is

815
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: also I just want to say all this talk is

816
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: not to say I want you to become somebody who

817
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: doesn't need anybody else to swim, right Like, I want

818
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: you swim in like holding hands with your person in

819
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 1: the water, but you're still cool, keeping yourself afloat with

820
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,320
Speaker 1: the rest of your limbs. Right yeah. The closeness is wonderful,

821
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful. It's my favorite part of being alive.

822
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:43,399
Speaker 1: But the universe can take away a person who's very

823
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: committed to us and loving as well, So we can't

824
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 1: We can't be somebody who can't swim alone because sometimes

825
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: the universe takes our person away even if they want

826
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: to be with us, Right yeah, I love that. Where

827
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: else can people find you? I'd mentioned your Instagram. Will

828
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 1: you tell the people who are that. Yeah, I've been

829
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: dabbling on TikTok, but I kind of feel like I'm

830
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: too old for it. I know, I get that. I

831
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: get that. Honestly, Instagram's really where I live. Don't find

832
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: me on TikTok. Come on, come on Instagram, really for it?

833
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: M oh, I did just start a podcast with my

834
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: buddy Jimmy. Yeah, he's kind of blowing up Jimmy. Jimmy

835
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: offers people advice in marriage. But honestly, like it's just

836
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: he's so funny. That's why he does so well on TikTok.

837
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: I'm not funny, right, TikTok is a whole different beast.

838
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: It really is. It really is. But my podcast is

839
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: pretty cool if if you google Ricky and Jimmy on Relationships.

840
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: We're only like eight episodes in, so it's new, but

841
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: we're having a lot of fun with it and I

842
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: think I'm going to be doing a lot more of

843
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: that in the future. Amazing. Well, I'll put that in

844
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 1: the description as well. It's Ricky R I K K

845
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: I for you guys, Ricky and Jimmy on really Ships. Okay, Well,

846
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: thank you so much. I know we had. Thanks for

847
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: the listeners. We had a couple of time difference. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, our scheduling because Ricky's in Alaska, which is

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Speaker 1: so cool. Yeah, I've never had anyone on the podcast

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00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: from Alaska. So cool. There aren't very many of us

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Speaker 1: up here, yeah statistics. Yeah, but I'm really glad that

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Speaker 1: we could make it happen. This was really fun me too.

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Speaker 1: You guys go check out ricky Anxious Hearts Guide. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I will put all of those links in the

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00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 1: description of this podcast. Rickie, thank you so much again. Thanks,

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00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: this was lovely. Thanks for listening to The Velvet's Edge

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Speaker 1: podcast with Kelly Henderson, where we believe everyone has a

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00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: little velvet and a little edge. Subscribe for more conversations

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00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: on life, style, beauty, and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever

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00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.