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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I don't welcome to

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Speaker 1: stuff I've never told your production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: So as we record this, it's January, but by the

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Speaker 1: time it comes out, it will be February, which means

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Speaker 1: that it is the month of Valentine's Day and the

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Speaker 1: month of romance and love. Or back when we went out,

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Speaker 1: the stores would be bedecked with heart shaped chocolate things

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Speaker 1: and bears. And tell me what the outside world is

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Speaker 1: like right now? Stuff out like they've had Valenttized Day

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Speaker 1: stuff out. Yes, yes, I don't know why it sounds

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Speaker 1: so annoyed about that. Everyone's struggling right now. If you

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Speaker 1: want to get your Valentine's Day stuff out early, who

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Speaker 1: am I to say? They want to make that money.

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Speaker 1: I want to make that money. Don't be alone as

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Speaker 1: Valentine's Valentine's I'm just playing. I don't think I've ever

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Speaker 1: had a successful romantic Valentine's And I think I've said

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Speaker 1: this before on the show, but I dated like three

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Speaker 1: guys in a row that had a birthday on or

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Speaker 1: near Valentine's and that was really that was tough. But

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Speaker 1: I've had a lot of good like Galantines and that

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Speaker 1: sort of dorky friendship point. I've had a lot of

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Speaker 1: good times with that. But for today's question, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask, are you a cuddler? Do you like cuddling?

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Speaker 1: It's according to who the person is. So typically I

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Speaker 1: am not a handsy, touchy person, but definitely, when I

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Speaker 1: am involved with someone and I feel like I can

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Speaker 1: trust them, I definitely am cold cuddle. Not all the time, like,

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Speaker 1: not all the time. I need my space, for sure,

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Speaker 1: but there are times and I'm like, I need a cuddle.

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Speaker 1: And this is when I was telling you that I

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Speaker 1: would say the word huggle, yes, because I want I

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Speaker 1: want to hug and snuggles at the same time, obviously,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty much cuddling. I guess there's already a

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Speaker 1: word for it, but I don't want to use that word.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to make your old cash right, But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's for me. Cuddling seems so intimate that it has

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Speaker 1: to be people I trust. So when I'm sick, I

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Speaker 1: don't like being touched, but I want to be pet

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Speaker 1: by my mother, like I like her coming and coddling me.

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Speaker 1: But she's the only one who could do that. But

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Speaker 1: now like, if I'm in a relationship and I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: trusting you, then yes, Also if I've been drinking and

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Speaker 1: I trust you, Like, it's really different that when I've

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Speaker 1: had a little libation. Typically will go to my closest

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Speaker 1: girlfriends and like we'll we touch you with them. And

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Speaker 1: so whether like Caroline and I met the first time

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Speaker 1: we've actually met and hung out, I really liked her.

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Speaker 1: I ended up sitting in her lap. I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: It just kind of hal and it kind of cemented

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Speaker 1: our relationship Caroline from unladylike. But that's kind of how

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Speaker 1: I am. And it's all that number of trust. So

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like who I see as someone that

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Speaker 1: is so oddly enough, cuddle lilng is a measure of

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Speaker 1: how much I trust you. Yeah, I can see that

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Speaker 1: that what about you. It's a very intimate thing. I

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Speaker 1: I think kind of similarly, I do cuddle a lot

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Speaker 1: with like pillows. I'm a very big pillow cuddler. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I bring like a pillow everywhere. And uh, in my

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Speaker 1: last long term relationship, when I was upset, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to cuddle like it was never a sign of like

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Speaker 1: times are going well for me. It was usually Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm upset and I want somebody to hold me. And

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Speaker 1: I used to have a recurring dream where I was

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Speaker 1: just leaning on someone's chest and I didn't have no

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Speaker 1: idea who they were, but I would listen to their

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Speaker 1: heartbeat and I would find it very comforting. My problem

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Speaker 1: is a lot of it is intimate, and there's a

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Speaker 1: trust issue there. But also I thought I was worried

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Speaker 1: it would lead to other things that I didn't want,

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Speaker 1: So it was almost never a good thing that I

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Speaker 1: was cuddling. But as everyone knows, I'm writting this epic

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Speaker 1: fan fiction and I see that cuddling shows up quite

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Speaker 1: a bit of it. So it is. I do think

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Speaker 1: there's a level of trust for a lot of us.

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Speaker 1: I won't say for everybody, but for a lot of

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Speaker 1: people involved in cuddling, right, yes, So well to look

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Speaker 1: into why that might be, we have this classic episode

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Speaker 1: for you on cuddling, so please enjoy. Welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: Mom Never told you from House Top Works, not col Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline

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Speaker 1: and Caroline. Today's topic is one of those that I

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Speaker 1: did not expect to find as much research and in

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Speaker 1: depth investigations on something as simplistic, at least seemingly some

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Speaker 1: the stick as cuddling. I know, well, I was not surprised.

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Speaker 1: I totally expected that there would be plenty of first

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Speaker 1: person accounts or anecdotal stories or even think pieces and

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Speaker 1: analysis about who cuddles and why. I didn't expect. Similarly,

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Speaker 1: I did not expect the actual amount of academic research

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Speaker 1: that's out there. But once I started reading about cuddling

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Speaker 1: and thought about all of the different variations of cuddling,

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Speaker 1: which I gotta say side note, cuddling is like one

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Speaker 1: of those like moist work for me. Yeah, cudling, cuddle

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Speaker 1: why But why is that because you're cuddling a verse

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Speaker 1: I'm a verse to referring to the act of cuddling.

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Speaker 1: Is cuddling? Does it signify? I think, as my therapist

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Speaker 1: would say, Christen, I'm sensing that there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: emotion around this. No, I think I just prefer spooning.

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Speaker 1: I think I just don't like the sound of cuddling.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's similar are to how a square is

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Speaker 1: a rahombus, but arambas is not a square. You know,

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Speaker 1: Spooning can be cuddling, But cuddling doesn't necessarily equate to sponing,

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Speaker 1: and spooning doesn't sound quite as much like the word curdling.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's I think that's what's going on

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Speaker 1: in my brain. You're also right there, yes, because when

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Speaker 1: I think of cuddling, I automatically think of like cottage

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Speaker 1: cheese cuddling. I think of care bears. I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: I literally like, I've never had what I just said

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Speaker 1: to you out loud. I've never had that concrete thought,

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Speaker 1: but I was like cuddling, Yeah, I just I think

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Speaker 1: of the care bears on their little clouds. That's what

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Speaker 1: I think of. We are really unpacking some deep stuff

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Speaker 1: already in this Why am I paying for therapy? Cottage

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Speaker 1: cheese care bears is incredible? Um. But thinking though about

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Speaker 1: all these variations of cuddling, snugging, snugging, snugg e ng

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Speaker 1: when you put on a snuggie and cuddle someone, or

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Speaker 1: snuggling as far as people call it, um, then there's spooning.

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Speaker 1: All these you know, this kind of intimate close contact

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Speaker 1: that might seem like frivolous behavior to explore, but there

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Speaker 1: really is a lot of gendered hang ups with it.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of evolutionary theory behind cuddling. Um, there

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Speaker 1: are lots of social rules around cuddling and new developments

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Speaker 1: in the world of cuddling today. Can't wait, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: can't wait to get into the there there's a lot.

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Speaker 1: I mean, whether you listeners, whether you are pro cuddling

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Speaker 1: or anti cuddling, there's something in here for everyone. What

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Speaker 1: a divide, I know, I hope this is not too

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Speaker 1: controversial for people. Well, it's it's related to the are

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Speaker 1: you a hugger or not? Question? Because some people not

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Speaker 1: so much huggers. Other people all about the hug, always

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Speaker 1: going to go straight in for the hug. Sure, And

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Speaker 1: I do find that that relates to the larger personality.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if I don't consider myself a hugger, but

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Speaker 1: there are people that I enjoy hugging. Same with cuddling.

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Speaker 1: I never really considered myself much of a cuddler, and

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Speaker 1: still until I started dating boyfriend dog. Yeah, I consider

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Speaker 1: myself a hearty handshaker. We'll see. I'm anxious all the

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Speaker 1: time and my palms get sweaty. I hate handshaking. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't mind a good hug every now

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Speaker 1: and then. Um, but you mentioned your boyfriend dog when

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Speaker 1: I asked my fiancee about cuddling, because of course I

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Speaker 1: needed to get the guy's perspective on the topic, because

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Speaker 1: there's a whole stereotyping of men don't like to cuddle,

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Speaker 1: cuddle something cuddling is something that only only chicks like

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Speaker 1: to do, and that in no way is an impression

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Speaker 1: of my fiance But I asked him whether he liked

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Speaker 1: cuddling or not because we we sleep real close, and

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Speaker 1: he said I was the first person he had ever

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Speaker 1: been down to cuddle. Interest sting, I know. And I

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Speaker 1: was walking on air for like two days, and but

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Speaker 1: I hate it. No, I love it. I love it.

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Speaker 1: And the next day I was in a really good

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Speaker 1: mood and he was like, this is because I told

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Speaker 1: you about the cuddling thing, isn't it. I was like,

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit. Yeah, Well it's interesting to see,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, we'll we'll definitely get into all that

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Speaker 1: hard hitting cuddling research in a minute, but very hard hitting.

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Speaker 1: But it is interesting to think about it from a

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Speaker 1: personal perspective and and past relationships and current relationships about

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Speaker 1: how yeah, it does seem to be related to your

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Speaker 1: larger personality, for instance, whether you're a hugger and in

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Speaker 1: what circumstances, but also your attachment style. There's all this

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Speaker 1: research into whether you are UM an anxiously attached person

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Speaker 1: or a securely attached person or avoidant attachment, and whether

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Speaker 1: that means you will cuddle or not. So in terms

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Speaker 1: of the psychology of cuddling in these attachment styles, we

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Speaker 1: can look at it not just in romantic context but

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Speaker 1: also like platonic and familial context as well, because probably

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Speaker 1: the very first cuddling that we experience is when we're

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Speaker 1: little babies, being being cuddled and snuggled all over the time. UM.

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Speaker 1: And there has been a lot of research on childhood

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Speaker 1: development and cuddling and how it might influence attachment styles

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Speaker 1: and also um outcomes for kids. And in a piece

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Speaker 1: on cuddling, a very end up piece on cuddling and

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Speaker 1: Slate written by David Merritt John's um, he looks into

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Speaker 1: the history of our cultural attitudes towards that parent child cuddling. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so in the early twentieth century, UH, cuddling was

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Speaker 1: thought to be a negative in in the family context,

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Speaker 1: you you might be making your children too soft or

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Speaker 1: too dependent on you, um, which of course made me,

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Speaker 1: I say, of course, like you guys know what the

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Speaker 1: heck I'm talking about. But it made me think of

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Speaker 1: my grandma there, of course, my grandmother. Of course it

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Speaker 1: made me think of her too. I know. Well, my

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Speaker 1: dad's mom was a very cold woman, and so according

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Speaker 1: to family legend, I say that like nobody my family

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Speaker 1: ever met her was her mother. And it was said

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Speaker 1: that my great grandmother never hugged were cuddled up to

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Speaker 1: my grandmother because she herself had had sort of a

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Speaker 1: traumatic upbringing. Her mother died at a very young age.

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Speaker 1: Her stepmother like basically didn't like her. Um. So it

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Speaker 1: is like interesting to see that sort of cultural sadness

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Speaker 1: and unfortunateness passed down. Luckily, my dad was snugly with

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Speaker 1: me so well, and a lot of moms back in

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Speaker 1: the day were advised not to cuddle, especially during the

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Speaker 1: progressive era. Around the turn of the century, you have

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Speaker 1: the rise of what's called scientific mothering and uh David

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Speaker 1: Merritt John's sites this landmark text The Care and Feeding

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Speaker 1: of Children by pediatrician named Luther Emmett Holt, and it

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Speaker 1: was super popular to the point that the US Labor

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Speaker 1: Department actually recruited doctor Holt to write a mass produced

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Speaker 1: pamphlet on proper child rearing, which was a pamphlet. Guess,

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Speaker 1: a pamphlet back in the days when pamphlets were were cool.

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Speaker 1: Well that's all there is to parenting. It's like a

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Speaker 1: pamphlet worth Yeah, really, that's all you need. Um. So

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Speaker 1: it was unfortunate though, that Holt was tasked to write

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Speaker 1: these pamphlets because he was decidedly anti cuddling, and it

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Speaker 1: was kind of the um conflating cuddling with coddling. Um.

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Speaker 1: And and this even extended to rocking a baby. Holt

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Speaker 1: wrote by no means should you do that. It's a

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Speaker 1: habit easily acquired in a very useless and sometimes injurious one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my parents rocked me for a long time. So I

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Speaker 1: got home on the weekend and I just we hopped

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Speaker 1: in that rocker and I just I just rock off

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Speaker 1: to sleep. That sounds a real healthy attachment there, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: not not too close. Nothing, nothing is weird about that. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then in Parenting takes a psychological turn with the

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Speaker 1: publishing of Dr John Watson's Behavior is a Manual psychological

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Speaker 1: care of infant and child. And I mean he sounds

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Speaker 1: like a great, great guy that you'd really want to

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Speaker 1: invite over to your child's birthday party. He wrote, treat

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Speaker 1: them your children as though they were young adults. Never

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Speaker 1: hug and kiss them, never let them sit in your lap.

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Speaker 1: If you must, kiss them once on the forehead when

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Speaker 1: they say good night, shake hands with them in the morning.

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Speaker 1: So very half a very business appropriate relationship with your children.

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Speaker 1: Since I don't have any kids and only have a

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Speaker 1: very old Labrador Retriever, I'm just imagining doing doing them

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Speaker 1: that to Buddy, just kiss him on the forehead and

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Speaker 1: shaking a little Paul before I leave in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Does he shake? Yeah, you can shake. Yeah you can't, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: Smart Smart, You're a good dog mom. But then it's

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Speaker 1: in the World War two era when it seems like

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Speaker 1: cuddling starts to take on more gendered meanings in terms

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Speaker 1: of the stereotype that is alive and well today, of

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Speaker 1: assuming that guys aren't into cuddling and that cuddling is

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Speaker 1: not a manly, masculine thing to do. Because as we

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Speaker 1: talked about in our Mama's Boys podcast a while back,

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Speaker 1: this was the era of mom is um and along

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Speaker 1: with the popular psychologists of the day, there was this

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Speaker 1: idea that overmothering was ruining the nation's young men and

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Speaker 1: softening them and making them, you know, too attached to

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Speaker 1: their moms and the whole. I mean that extends to

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Speaker 1: representations on screen. You can see it in Psycho and

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Speaker 1: Norman baits um so. And that's also there are lots

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Speaker 1: of undercurrents of homophobia, I think as well, because wasn't

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Speaker 1: it in like the nineteen twenties that we start to

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Speaker 1: see the rise of well, because it's in the way

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Speaker 1: ake of psychoanalysis coming around all these fears of people

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Speaker 1: who don't leave their same sex tendencies behind. You know,

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Speaker 1: Freud wrote about, oh, well, everyone has an attraction to

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Speaker 1: members of the same sex, but then you leave it

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Speaker 1: behind or elt you become anal retentive. So it seems

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Speaker 1: like this is also rising with alongside fears of homosexuality. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I would assume that all of that embedded itself

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Speaker 1: into our cultural views of cuddling as well. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties we start to get more of

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Speaker 1: a clue that maternal nurture and presumably in with this

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Speaker 1: cuddling is important because we get psychologist Harry Harlow's famous

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Speaker 1: baby monkey experiments at the University of Wisconsin. And for

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Speaker 1: those of you who might not have taken like a

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Speaker 1: psychology one oh one class and read about this study,

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Speaker 1: it is so heartbreaking. Tell us about it, Caroline Well

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Speaker 1: monkey babies. UM. So, basically, he was seeking to find

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Speaker 1: out the whole nature of our his nurture argument, and

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Speaker 1: whether adoption children who were adopted could be happy, healthy,

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Speaker 1: and successful just like children who were biologically born to

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Speaker 1: their families. Um. And so he takes these infant monkeys

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Speaker 1: away from their mothers and puts them either with like

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Speaker 1: a wire structure of a monkey kind of the dispenses milk,

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Speaker 1: or a milk less wire structure that's covered with soft

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Speaker 1: hairry cloth. And he found that despite the fact that

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Speaker 1: neither one was an actual monkey or a mother, um,

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Speaker 1: the monkeys who grew up being able to cling to

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Speaker 1: cuddle with and rub on the terry cloth monkey pseudo

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Speaker 1: monkey developed more normally. Those who were able to comfort

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Speaker 1: themselves by going and kind of cuddling with this terry

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Speaker 1: cloth structure ended up being a little more normally developed

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Speaker 1: than the monkeys who grew up with the wire structure,

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Speaker 1: because they found that when they did test later and

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Speaker 1: either scared the monkeys or stressed them out, the ones

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Speaker 1: who grew up with the terry cloth mother reacted in

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Speaker 1: a more healthy way. They might run to the terry

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Speaker 1: cloth structure and kind of cling to it and then

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Speaker 1: be okay. They've helped adjust themselves to the fear of

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Speaker 1: the stress, whereas the ones that grew up with the

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Speaker 1: wire structure threw themselves down on the floor, screamed, got

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Speaker 1: in the fetal position, rocked back and forth. And they

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Speaker 1: said that it resembled the way that children who are

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Speaker 1: completely neglected or deprived from a young age react to

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Speaker 1: stress and fear. And it's also similar to what they

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Speaker 1: saw among a lot of adults who had been locked

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Speaker 1: away in um mental institutions for years. Well. And they

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Speaker 1: found too that if given the choice, the monkeys would

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Speaker 1: forego getting fed from the wire hanger the dispensed milk

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Speaker 1: and instead go get comfort in contact from the terry cloth. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And he found by following these monkeys for a while,

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Speaker 1: following them down the street, I don't know, by like

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Speaker 1: curious George and his friend right by continuing to observe

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Speaker 1: the monkeys, he realized that no amount of later life cuddling,

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Speaker 1: affection whatever, could right the path of the monkeys. He'd

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Speaker 1: grown up with the wire structure well, and that need

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Speaker 1: for in eight need for cuddling in you know, the

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Speaker 1: primate species will come in later in the episode when

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Speaker 1: we talk about the science and evolutionary theories behind why

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Speaker 1: we do this kind of bizarre behavior of rubbing up

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Speaker 1: on each other. Oh, you're a joy to go to

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Speaker 1: a bar with, I guess, oh yes, oh yes. But

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Speaker 1: if we if we move from parent child cuddling, that

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Speaker 1: familial cuddling, to platonic friendly, same sex cuddling and look

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Speaker 1: at the culture around that in our assumptions, we see

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Speaker 1: that it gets very gendered very fast too, because it

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Speaker 1: used to be more common when and girls were largely

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Speaker 1: socialized separately. This would have been kind of pre twentieth century.

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Speaker 1: Boys and girls kind of grew up in their own spheres,

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Speaker 1: and so friendships between boys and girls were what I

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Speaker 1: should say, like between boys and boys and girls and

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Speaker 1: girls would be very intimate. I mean to the point

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Speaker 1: of a lot of you know, physical contact and intimacy

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Speaker 1: that we think of today in terms of girl friendships,

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Speaker 1: but not so much with boys. Yeah, I mean into

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Speaker 1: the early twentieth century, emotionally and physically expressive friendships between

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Speaker 1: men were super common, and guys would even share beds,

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Speaker 1: like the The story that jumps to mind is, of course,

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Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln and Joshua Speed sharing a bed. And there's

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Speaker 1: all of these people today who look at that out

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Speaker 1: of context and they're like, oh, Lincoln must have been gay.

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Speaker 1: He was like gay. Oh my god, We're so afraid

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Speaker 1: of him. And it's like, well, okay, there's nothing to

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Speaker 1: be afraid of. But b you've got to look at

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Speaker 1: it in the context of the time when it was

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Speaker 1: super common for men to share beds and then for

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Speaker 1: men to share room. So there might be a bunch

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Speaker 1: of guys sharing a room if they're traveling. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: John Ibsen actually published a whole book of photographic evidence

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Speaker 1: of these physically intimate friendships between men called Picturing men

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Speaker 1: Um And it's incredible to see this comfortable intimacy without

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Speaker 1: that that fear of being perceived as gay. It's this,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's homophobia free expressions of of

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Speaker 1: genuine love between dudes and it's really sweet to see

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Speaker 1: guys not just like with their arms around each other, um,

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Speaker 1: but really close, like legs entwined and having those formal

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Speaker 1: poses that you might see like family portraits, but two

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Speaker 1: men with like their arms resting on each other's thighs.

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Speaker 1: And it really it doesn't seem sure. There was one

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Speaker 1: like Civil War air picture where a guy sitting on

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Speaker 1: his buddies lapsing for the camera, you know, like you do.

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Speaker 1: There's only one chair. What are you supposed to do

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Speaker 1: but signal ling that homophobia may at long last be waning,

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Speaker 1: and my goodness, we certainly hope it is a viral

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Speaker 1: study among forty British male student athletes found thirty seven

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Speaker 1: of them reported cuddling with their bros, even describing the

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Speaker 1: super chill way that they deal with accidental erections. Let's

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Speaker 1: say that the big spoon, you know they're like bros

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Speaker 1: hanging out binging on Netflix on the couch, wants the

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Speaker 1: big spoon and because of contact, you know, he gets

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Speaker 1: an erection. And they told the researchers that they usually

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Speaker 1: deal with it one of two ways, where the little

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Speaker 1: spoon is like, hey mate, you know, get rid of

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Speaker 1: your erection. Or then the other guys like I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: go pop to the loop b r B and then

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Speaker 1: they just you know, take care of it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Caroline's true. And it might sound and listeners, I know

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00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: that might sound far fetch, but I am legitimately recounting

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Speaker 1: what is in this right qualitative study. It's a study,

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Speaker 1: but and it's a study that went viral. The thing

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Speaker 1: is about the study, a very small sample study sample,

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Speaker 1: but also judging by the coverage that it got and

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Speaker 1: a lot of leaping to lots of conclusions about how, oh,

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Speaker 1: college boys cuddle each other all of the time. Um,

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Speaker 1: is I don't know, to me a sign that we

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Speaker 1: we maybe aren't so far away from cuddling if we're

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Speaker 1: so amazed at the fact that, you know, um, athletic

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Speaker 1: jock kind of dudes can touch each other and it's fine.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about this back in the day

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Speaker 1: in our Bromance episode, which I encourage you to go

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Speaker 1: listen to if this topic interest to you. Um, because yeah,

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Speaker 1: in that episode, which was a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 1: we talked about trend pieces looking at dudes, bros, guys

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Speaker 1: who were like cuddle. So what we're just buds were

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Speaker 1: friends and um for guys listening, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: imply that anytime you cuddle you automatically get a direction.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying that that was something that was noted

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Speaker 1: in that study. Right, sometimes it happens, Sometimes it happened,

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Speaker 1: wanders whatever. But if we look at girlfriends cuddling in

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Speaker 1: this context of what are called romantic friendships, they were

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Speaker 1: and still are super common. I mean, as I was

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Speaker 1: reading about, you know, girls cuddling their girl friends, I

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Speaker 1: immediately thought of Girls the show. I mean, there are

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00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: so many scenes of uh, Lena and her friends being

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Speaker 1: in bed together, taking baths together. It's very close and

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Speaker 1: physically intimate. Yeah, like all my two best girlfriends in

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Speaker 1: the world, if we're like on the couch or whatever,

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00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 1: we'll totally like throw our legs over each other whatever

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Speaker 1: without a thought. Like but then it's the same thing

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Speaker 1: as as what we talked about at the top of

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Speaker 1: the podcast, with like hugging or you know, who do

397
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Speaker 1: you cuddle with or who do you want to cuddle with?

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Speaker 1: There is that degree of like super closeness for me

399
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: that proceeds like I'm gonna throw my legs over your

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Speaker 1: lap you're just gonna deal with it. Listen, You're gonna

401
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: swaddle me and rock me like a baby. You want

402
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: to be my bff. Yeah, I have weird weekend. Um,

403
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: But this was really interesting to see in the early

404
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: twentieth century, as homophobia starts creeping in and it is,

405
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Speaker 1: it's interesting to see for girls and and female friendships.

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Speaker 1: How in the same way that homophobia started creeping into

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Speaker 1: guy friendships, a lot of it being fueled by the

408
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: rise of psychoanalysis, there was concern about physical intimacy between

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Speaker 1: girl friendships as well. Um, as marriages for love became

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Speaker 1: the norm, especially once we get into the nineteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: and along with the idea of your spouse being a friend, um,

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00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 1: there were warnings to parents that they should make sure

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Speaker 1: that their daughters aren't too physically friendly with their girlfriends

414
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Speaker 1: because that might lead to lesbianism because of our quote

415
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Speaker 1: unbridled libidos. Um. Yeah. William James uh was writing in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies, I believe, and I was discussing how men,

417
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Speaker 1: you know, just have this natural aversion to wanting to

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Speaker 1: be attracted to their male peers. You know, it's inherent

419
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Speaker 1: in us, but it's disgusting, and so there's a natural

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Speaker 1: aversion to it, whereas you know that natural aversion is

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Speaker 1: not as strong or as common in women because we're

422
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Speaker 1: also pretty, you know, we are so and so soft

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Speaker 1: it smell good. But I just I think it's so

424
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 1: funny when you come back through history and you look

425
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: at from particularly men's view of like women's relationships with

426
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 1: or without sexuality involved. But like there there are so

427
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 1: many anxieties prop up around this time. Well, I mean,

428
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: and and definitely the rules for expressiveness in men's friendships

429
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: have been far more rigid in modern times because I mean,

430
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: even even though yes, there was that that panic over

431
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: same sex attraction within girl friendships, still because of the

432
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: assumption that women are naturally more nurturing, um, cuddling and

433
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: those kinds of behaviors have still been accepted though, I mean,

434
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,479
Speaker 1: you have you know, girls are probably likelier to have

435
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 1: sleepovers where we brush each other's hair and oh my god,

436
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: being in elementary school and the library for reading time,

437
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: and like having your best girlfriends braid your hair or

438
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: you give each other massages, give each other's nails. I

439
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: wish someone would come braid my hair out. It's like

440
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 1: the most soothing. Maybe that's a cure for insomnia. That's

441
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: probably weird. I don't think my boyfriend would braid my hair.

442
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: Have you asked? I haven't? You know, you never know,

443
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: not a topic I've broached. Well, speaking of your boyfriend

444
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: braiding your hair, Caroline, that's the perfect segue to talking

445
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: about opposite sex cuddling, because it's always been this fraud

446
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: issue because of the sex factor and the whole accidental

447
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: for play factor. Yeah. So, if you go back to

448
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: eighteenth century colonial America, which let me tell you, was

449
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: a laugh riot, which is real fun. Back then, wintertime

450
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: courtship might have involved this thing called bundling, which to me,

451
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: in my head, even though I know what it is,

452
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: I still just pictured two people in sleeping bags bumping

453
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 1: up against each other. It was kind of like that.

454
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: I know. It was basically trial cuddling for people who

455
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: were likely on the marriage track. So it's wintertime, it's cold,

456
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: you don't have central heat and air, God forbid, and

457
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: so the guy would sleep over at the girl's house

458
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: in the same bed. And of course this was more

459
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: about body heat than lust per se, although I'm sure

460
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: that there was a lust undercurrent lounder current alunder current

461
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: a lounder current. Um. And this was supposed to help

462
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: see if they were compatible for marriage, but to prevent

463
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: the sex from happening. They might sleep in this bifurcated

464
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 1: bundling sack, which again like do they make these at

465
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: camping stores? Can I get these? Yeah? At yield ARII

466
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: had the bifurcated bundling sack. Um. I'm sure, like all

467
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: with this artisan thing going on, I'm sure, like Etsy,

468
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: somebody makes bifurcated bundling. Do you want to bring back bundling? Yeah,

469
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: bundler Yeah, it's our new it's our tender app competitor,

470
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: right and and like those apps, there's no e er,

471
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: it's just are of course bundle Um. So they would

472
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: be in the sack and or have a bundle ing

473
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: board between them, and I'm like, wait, why are you

474
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: having a board if this is about body heat? Well,

475
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: I bet Caroline, the loundertones combined with the body heat

476
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: would permeate the bundling board, which listeners. A bundling board

477
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: is exactly what it sounds like. It's just it's just

478
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: a board that they put down the middle of the bed. Yeah,

479
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: and so I mean, at least in this way, if

480
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: those undertones do overtake you, the family would at least

481
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: know what man was responsible for impregnating their daughter. Yeah,

482
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: I mean, because it's funny. So this was happening in

483
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: the context of premarital pregnancy being on the rise. So

484
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: this was kind of a way for parents to be like, listen,

485
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: I guess if it's going to happen, we need to

486
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: know who to marry a little susan off to, just

487
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: in case. The Puritans though, by the way, we're just

488
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: outraged by this whole bundling trend um. But as our

489
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: sexual mores have loosened up as we and dart bundling boards,

490
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: so to speak, much of our headonormative romantic cuddling discourse

491
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: really revolves around two major assumptions. That men use cuddling

492
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: to initiate sex, and that women use cuddling to bond

493
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: after sex. Yeah, very divided these assumptions. Yeah, for us,

494
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: it's bonding, for them, it's just spreading their feed. Yeah.

495
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: And so we're gonna unravel the gendering of these cuddle

496
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: preferences when we come right back from a quick break.

497
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: So before we get into the cuddling battle of the

498
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: sexes in quotes. Let's talk for a minute about why

499
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: this behavior permeates our closest relationships, because there is some

500
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: science to this. Yeah, I mean, basically it promotes bonding.

501
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: You get the release of oxytocin, which is that bonding hormone,

502
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: and it basically communicates social information, including touch, to our

503
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 1: brains reward system. It's like it's like candy. It's like

504
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: eating a delicious chocolate bar. Yeah, it would be like

505
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: when when your boyfriend dog braids your hair, your oxytocin

506
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: would are we are we in our bundling sack, in

507
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: your bundling sack. Yes, your oxytocin in your brain would

508
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: gather up boyfriend dog hair braiding, the sense of calm

509
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: and then deliver that to your brain's reward system and

510
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: you'd be like, oh, I really like that, right, and

511
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: so then your stress levels plummet. As basically, anyone who's

512
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: had a good old cuddle can attest that good old cuddle,

513
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: good old cuddle, little cuddle, puddle, good solid cup. So

514
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: if we look back for a minute at that parent

515
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 1: child cuddling, we start to see this these neurological benefits

516
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: playing out from the very beginnings of our lives because

517
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: our rains really are wired to enjoy this. Uh. There

518
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: was a study published in two thousand nine in Nature Neuroscience,

519
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: for instance, that located receptors in our skin that transmit

520
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: pleasant touch sensations not limited to cuddling. But in a way,

521
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: they're kind of like our cuddle receptors, being like, oh,

522
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: I like, I like how this feels. This is nice,

523
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: I feel safe. Yeah, my boyfriend has strong cuddle receptors.

524
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: But we'll get into that when we talk more about

525
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: the gender division. But so, speaking of people with strong

526
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: cuddling receptors, there's this mom from Amsterdam, and Kristen and

527
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: I both posted this to our social media because it

528
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: was like kind of funny but also horrifying. She knitted

529
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: a full life size replica of her son. She knitted

530
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: a suit of her son because she was like, he

531
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: doesn't cuddle with me as much anymore now that he's

532
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: a teen or a tween or whatever, and so you know,

533
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to hold onto those cuddling day is, so

534
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: I knitted a suit of him. Yeah, and it looks

535
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: super creepy because he wears it, like it's hollow. It's

536
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: not like she stuffed it with stuffing. I mean, like

537
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: her human son wears it. Okay, but here's the thing, Um,

538
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: I feel a little bad for her because of course

539
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: the story went viral and people freaked out saying like,

540
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: you're the creepiest mom on earth. Also, how long did

541
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: that take? But anyway, Uh, it was a joke. She

542
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: did it, you know, trying to be funny, but of

543
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: course some things were lost in translation and people just

544
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: saw cuddling son and this kind of disturbing replica. Yeah,

545
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: bless her heart. It is a horrifying it's a horrifying creation.

546
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: It's a little and I totally dig the sense of

547
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: humor though, but if you really just literally do see

548
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: the picture and the quote about like I miss cuddling

549
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: my son because I know. On when I posted it

550
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: to our tumbler, people were like, oh my god, this

551
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: woman needs help. Yeah yeah, but there is some science

552
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: to do back up that desire, her desire to cuddle

553
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: her song, because I think that is legit. Because when

554
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,439
Speaker 1: we did post it to the stuff I've Never Told

555
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: You Facebook page, a few moms commented saying, I know

556
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 1: exactly what she's talking about because it's in our d

557
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: n A. A two thousand six study found quote a

558
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: maternal predisposition toward touch significantly predicted babies touch receptivity, and

559
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: another study found twins tend to have comparable cuddle levels.

560
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: So I mean, it seems like if you, if you

561
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: are like this lady and you really like to, you know, cuddle,

562
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,959
Speaker 1: and that's one of your love languages, you might say, yeah,

563
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 1: one of the ways that you bond, then um, then yeah,

564
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 1: maybe you maybe you do knit a life size replica

565
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: of your child. Sure, yeah, if you're into that, I

566
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: bet she's a hugger too. Oh yeah, But I thought

567
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: it was interesting. In that Slate piece when David Merritt

568
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: John's was talking about the sex difference between male and

569
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 1: female babies cuddle receptivity, he says that it's basically when

570
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: he was speaking with temperament experts, but he said it

571
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: was basically the same no matter the sex of the child.

572
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 1: It's just that some babies, male or female, aren't as

573
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: down for super cuddling as others. Some are total snuggle

574
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: babies and others are like, well, I'm gonna go stiff

575
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: as a board, Please put me down. Yeah, it's about

576
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: fifteen percent or kind of like cats. You know, it's

577
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: trying to cuddle a cat and it's like, oh, get

578
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: me out of here, um and oh man, I love

579
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: trying to cuddle a cat because it's just fun shouting

580
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: some are down. Before we came into the studio, I

581
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: was just talking to Holloway from History stuff about kiddies,

582
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: and she was like, because I told her how much

583
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: I wanted a dog, and she was like, well, you know,

584
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: you should get a cat. And I was like, well,

585
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: if I could guarantee that it would be a cuddly

586
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: dog like cat, I would totally get one. But you

587
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: never know. Well, listeners, if you know of any good

588
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: dog like cats Caroline could cuddle, let us know and

589
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 1: please send pictures. Yeah, I'll rent it, Like I mean,

590
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: I can't have a pet right now, but like I'll

591
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: absolutely rent it from you rent a kitty. Um. So

592
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: if we look though at friendly cuddling, that same sex

593
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: platonic cuddling that we talked about a little while ago,

594
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: scientists think that it might be our primate version of

595
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: grooming each other. So Caroline, I'm not going to come

596
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: up to you and like dig through your hair and

597
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: look for fleas or or bugs or things like that.

598
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, You're welcome as much as I want to. Um.

599
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: But they think that, you know, our cuddling behavior is

600
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: related to that. I mean, think of how you know,

601
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: girlfriends will hold hands, will link arms. We I mean,

602
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: I might brush your hair and then and then secretly

603
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: try to see if you have any any phase in

604
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: your hair, so that you know to bolt if you

605
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: see one. Well, didn't. These researchers also say that they

606
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 1: thought that not only was the primate you know, tick

607
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: searching or flea searching and grooming a precursor to our cuddling,

608
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 1: but that it was also a precursor to like gossip circles.

609
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: It's a way to spend time with people you love

610
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: and care about in like an intimate way. Um. And

611
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: then you know, once we actually gain the ability to

612
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 1: talk and say human words. Uh, then we're just talking

613
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: smack about the cave women next to us. I think

614
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: about this too whenever, Um, I groom my dog. Now,

615
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: you guys tell each other's secret. Yes, he tells me

616
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: all of his secrets, and I brush out his old fur.

617
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: You know, good way to spend time together and gossip

618
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: about the other dogs, that your your apartment complex is

619
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: always talking smack about my fiance. Let me just tell

620
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 1: you home man. But when it comes to romantic cuddling,

621
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: the cuddling, that's that's the most controversial, the most fraught

622
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: with stereotypes. Evolutionary theory explains post quital cuddling motivated by

623
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: women wanting to make sure that the dude who might

624
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 1: have just impregnated her is going to stick around and

625
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: gotta love some always heteronormative and predictable evolutionary theory because

626
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: on the flip side, they maintain that men might be

627
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: more inclined to engage in more hedonic activities like pleasure

628
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: seeking activities like having a smoke, eating or having sex

629
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: again rather than wanting to cuddle, because guys are just

630
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 1: about that, about that pleasure center, all about that base. Um.

631
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: Which great, that's gonna be in my head forever now. Um.

632
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: But biologically, researchers say cuddling off of boost sexual attraction

633
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: because it's linked to an increase in testosterone, which might

634
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 1: also explain how cuddling does double duty as both for

635
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: play and post coital relaxing. And there was this study

636
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: in the archives of sexual behavior that we looked at

637
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: that discussed how couples who partake in post sex cuddling

638
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: felt more satisfied with their sex lives but also their

639
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: relationships in general. And they found it mattered. Cuddling mattered

640
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: more than the fore play or the duration of the

641
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: actual intercourse because our brains look at it as a

642
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: positive post sex reward, and I can only imagine that

643
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: no matter male or female, if you do have this

644
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: stronger like touch reward receptors, that it's even better. But

645
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: what's what I loved is that they found that it's

646
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 1: not just post coital like I feel so rewarded, so fulfilled,

647
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: I'm so happy with my partner, but also the effects

648
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: lasted for a long time, like months, Yeah, I mean,

649
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: and even isolated outside of sex, just cuddling on its

650
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: own when you're laying on the couch and bene watching Netflix.

651
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: Yet again, it can be, you know, a bonding activity

652
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: for couples, not surprisingly, and there's research to back it up.

653
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: So I mean, it's just funny in looking up research

654
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 1: for this podcast, how the media really love to make

655
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: like sweeping generalizations about cuddling. Um in terms of oh science,

656
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: finally proves that couples who cuddle are better than everyone else,

657
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: or science proves that men love cuddling and women actually

658
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: loathe it. And we've kind of concocted, because of a

659
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: lot of our sort of misinterpretation of studies, um and

660
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 1: and assumptions, uh, that there is this cuddling war going

661
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 1: on in this battle of the sexes, almost the most

662
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: adorable war, the softest care bears just hitting each other

663
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: with pillows. Yeah, exactly, because the assumption that most men

664
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: don't like cuddling is based far more on gender norms

665
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: than hardwiring, all of that neuroscience we've just been talking about.

666
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: For instance, in nineteen seventy six, scientists Mark Hollander at

667
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 1: Vanderbilt studied gender differences in cuddling. On the basis. Going

668
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: into this study, h Hollander assumed that, quote, according to

669
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 1: our prevailing viewpoint, it's unmanly to want to be held

670
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: or cuddled. Only women are permitted or encouraged to express

671
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: such feminine wishes. Yeah, but when you look at statistics,

672
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: which we so love to do, there isn't really a

673
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 1: huge difference. And how much all dudes and all ladies

674
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,959
Speaker 1: like to cuddle. Yeah, as much as a headline every

675
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: other month will claim that, oh yeah, women really do

676
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: love to cuddle. No no, no, wait, it's actually guys

677
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: who love to cuddle more than women. No, it's it's

678
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: kind of it's kind of breaks even, sort of like

679
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: the sex differences in babies, where it's like, you know,

680
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: we just have a subset where they're they're just the cats,

681
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: the cats of the world who don't want to be cuddled. Right.

682
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 1: There was this twenty eleven Kinds the Institute study on

683
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: older long term couples that found a slightly stronger twelve

684
00:41:54,080 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: versus nine relationship between cuddling and kissing and relationship satisfied

685
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: action among men. Of course, there's all sorts of things

686
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: you have to take into account, including like who in

687
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: this long term study has dropped out due to divorce,

688
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 1: Like maybe all you're left with is the people who

689
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: genuinely just love spending time together. Well, and the chicken

690
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: egg too, of which comes first the relationship satisfaction or

691
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: cuddling and kissing behavior. But the way that three percent

692
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: edge was interpreted in headlines across the internet was men

693
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: love cuddling. They love it way more than women. So

694
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: much more than women. And I feel like if you

695
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 1: just ask humans about cuddling, it's like what we've been

696
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 1: saying the past couple of minutes that it's literally like, yeah,

697
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: you've got some people who like it and some people

698
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: who don't, and some people like me who really hated

699
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: it and weren't really down with it until they met

700
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: their person exactly. Yeah. Um, But there is an interesting

701
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: link to between cuddling and attachment styles, So we talked

702
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: about um earlier in the podcast. A two thousand and

703
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: fourteen stuff examining attachment style and both cuddling among parent

704
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: child relationships and romantic relationships did find that women overall

705
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: reported more positive feelings about cuddling, but the researchers weren't

706
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: entirely sure why. Well, here's the thing I mean. So,

707
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: as you mentioned at the top of the podcast, you've

708
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: got the spectrum of attachment styles, everything from avoidant attachment,

709
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: which is like, oh, I love you, but like I'm

710
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 1: going to keep an arm out, uh, to secure attachment,

711
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: which is you're well adjusted, you like cuddling, You're not

712
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: going to spend twenty four hours a day with your person,

713
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: but you love them whatever. All the way to the

714
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: anxious attachment, which is fear of abandonment. It's I've got

715
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: to cuddle you because you might leave me, Like I've

716
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: got to cuddle you because it makes me feel better.

717
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: It's a self seething behavior. And as I was reading this,

718
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, okay, Because although my boyfriend and

719
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: I are sort of each at the middle of the

720
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: spectrum in terms of attachment styles, I would say that

721
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: I am I don't I don't know, left of center

722
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: in terms of the avoidant attachment style, and he's a

723
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: little bit right of center in terms of the anxious

724
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 1: attachment style. Although we are obviously very secure with each

725
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: other and in love and all that griss stuff. But

726
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: I think that that sort of helps encapsulate our individual

727
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: relationship with cuddling, where I came into being like, uh,

728
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 1: and he just I mean that boy wants to cuddle

729
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,280
Speaker 1: all the time. But a notable thing about that study

730
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: on attachment style and cuddling was that avoidantly attached people

731
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: were not down to cuddle. They found like there was

732
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 1: a strong relationship between you know, not being into it

733
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: and being avoidantly attached, Whereas you would assume that anxiously

734
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: attached people would want to cuddle all the time, but

735
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: researchers um like, to their surprise, did not find a

736
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: relationship wasn't It was a much weaker link between the

737
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: anxiously attached style and cuddling. So it could just be

738
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: that my boyfriend just like likes to cuddle just I mean,

739
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: I wonder if that speaks so to the universality of

740
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: ling where I mean, it is such a such a

741
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: common behavior that it's not really much of an outlier

742
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: for someone to like to to cuddle. Yeah. Sure, I mean,

743
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: I'm definitely a convert, you know. Like my boyfriend had

744
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: been um basically like out of town for two weeks,

745
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: and I went over to his house that was night,

746
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: and we just lay on the couch just like silently

747
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: just cuddled for a long time. It was a way

748
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: to reconnect. It's that it's that oxytocin, those good bonding chemicals.

749
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: You gotta get that oxytocin refilled sometimes. And you know what,

750
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: I was the big spin, Oh, yeah, that's really sweet

751
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: because your boyfriend is super tall. I know, I just

752
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 1: love cuddling up to that. But but even in hookup context,

753
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: there isn't a huge gender gap either. And I was

754
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: thrilled to see this studied because I feel like this

755
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: is where the cuddling stereotypes totally come out of UM

756
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 1: Anecdotally in conversations I've had with my girlfriends about hookups.

757
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: UM Binghamton Universities, justin Garcia UM did a survey and

758
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: found that dudes and sixty one of women wanted to

759
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,280
Speaker 1: snuggle post hook ups. So yeah, more women, but still

760
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: a lot of dudes. Meanwhile, in committed relationships, there was

761
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: no difference at all of all the people wanted to

762
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: cuddle and liked doing it. UM. So that said to me, like,

763
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 1: we are maybe making up some of these stereotypes. Obviously

764
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: there are some some differences, but they are narrower than

765
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: we probably assume or tend to read into. Well, it's

766
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: all of the crap about gender norms. It's almost like

767
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: we want to believe it. It's funny. It's like it's

768
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,240
Speaker 1: funny to believe that a man who likes to cuddle

769
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: is feminine or weak or whatever or like Macina smother

770
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: you clingy. Yeah, all of that junk, and that you

771
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: know woman who doesn't like to cuddle is you know

772
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,359
Speaker 1: a tramp who's going to leave you, she's so tough,

773
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 1: doesn't need to cuddle so independent. Um, in straight long

774
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,280
Speaker 1: term couple of contexts because ps, there is zero research

775
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: at least that we found on same sex snuggling, so

776
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: researchers up to it well same sex romantic relationships, not

777
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: same sex platonic friends specifically British college jocks, um. But

778
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: in the straight long term couple contexts, cuddling is mutually

779
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: beneficial related to healthy, satisfied relationships, whether it's used to

780
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: initiate sex or not. And that's something Caroline, that you

781
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: talked about in that study where it's like whether we're

782
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 1: doing it before sex, after sex, are just on a

783
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: random evening when you haven't seen each other in a

784
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 1: long time. Cuddling can be good for you and it

785
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense because of the you know,

786
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: the physiological effects of it. Well, you mentioned that there's

787
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: little to no research among same sex romantic relationships uncuddling,

788
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: but this is also an area where we could use

789
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 1: more research for the a sexual community. You know, we've

790
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 1: we've got a lot of letters in recent months from

791
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: members of the a sexual and a romantic community who

792
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: you know, obviously want to hear themselves represented in media

793
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: and in research, and there's really nothing out there about

794
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 1: them either. Yeah, I mean they have a lot of

795
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: kind of crowdsourced resources. And um, I looked in that

796
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: for thoughts on cuddling because there are people within you know,

797
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 1: the A sexuality spectrum who are totally down to snuggle

798
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: and really love snuggling and cuddling and spooning, but just

799
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: don't desire any sexual contact beyond that. And so there

800
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 1: are you know, lots of questions at that point for

801
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, for their partners, how do they you know,

802
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: make sure that's not misleading in any kind of way. Um?

803
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: And is it mutually satisfying? And so I would love

804
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: to hear from any a sexual or a romantic listeners

805
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: about the cuddling issue too. And a word about context.

806
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: And you hinted it this Carolina a second ago when

807
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: you said that you are cuddling convert, because I mean,

808
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: I think how much someone likes cuddling in the moment

809
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: when you ask them like do you enjoy cuddling depends

810
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: a lot on the circumstances around it. Are you tired?

811
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: Is it super hot in the room? Are you not

812
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: really like into that person? Who's next to you for

813
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 1: whatever reason. You know, Sometimes do you just want to

814
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: sleep on your stomach with a pillow over your head

815
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: and call it a day? Yes, I do. My name

816
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: is Kristen. Yeah. No, I Even within my relationship, there

817
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: are obviously times that I'm like, get away from me,

818
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: especially when it's time to sleep, Like I'm fine cuddling

819
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: up before we go to sleep, but when it's time

820
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: for lights out, like, get off me, don't touch me.

821
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: Although of course it's freezing in my boyfriend's house all

822
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: the time. Sometimes we'll do the thing and this is

823
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: probably t m I, but we'll like fall asleep kind

824
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: of snuggled up because we're freezing, and then wake up

825
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night drenched. I know that

826
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: feeling Well, sorry for grossing anyone out, but I mean,

827
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: if you don't have a super cuddler like my boyfriend,

828
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 1: which you better not, Uh, there are other cuddling opportunities

829
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: out there. Okay, Yes, this brings us to the strangest

830
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: wrinkle in this cuddle puddle. More people these days are

831
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 1: cuddling with perfect strangers like Balky. Yes, where people are

832
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: cuddling Balky um. And here's the thing. While it scientifically

833
00:50:55,120 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: makes sense that we crave pleasant touch and it's physiological effects,

834
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: does not make any socio scientific sense to cuddle with

835
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: a stranger because it kind of violates so many norms

836
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: and uh is perplexing to a lot of researchers because

837
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: I mean, even even for me, as someone who is

838
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: um more of a non hugger than a than a hugger,

839
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: the idea of just meeting someone in a park and

840
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 1: laying down and then having their you know, body odor

841
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: and and hot breath so close to me and not

842
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: knowing them makes my skin crawl because it just seems

843
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: so it seems very unsafe to me. Um, but there's

844
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: an app for that. If you are a cuddler and

845
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: there are a lot of colors out there, has someone

846
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: already made bundler? No one's made bundler. We can make

847
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: buddler okay, okay, and our bifurcated bundle bags trademarked Sminty

848
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: of course. Yes. Um, but there is an app formerly

849
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: known as cuddler. It's called Spooner, and geo locates people

850
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 1: around you who are down for a cuddle. Yeah. This

851
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: sounded like woe danger zone to me because just you know,

852
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,800
Speaker 1: dating websites can be sketched in general, or websites apps.

853
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm old. Hello, Um, anything in the

854
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,879
Speaker 1: outside world. Yeah, things that are outside of my comfort zone,

855
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 1: I e. The podcast studio. Um. But Charlie Williams, who's

856
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: the founder of Spooner, told Salon that I think is

857
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 1: a culture we're ready to consider. Cuddling is more than

858
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: just something that happens before after sex, but it's something

859
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,240
Speaker 1: worth pursuing in its own right. Cuddling takes communication, respect

860
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 1: for boundaries, and self control. And he's telling them all

861
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: about how like, no, it's totally fine, it's totally safe,

862
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: Like it helps you and even in your personal life

863
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 1: work on your communication skills about what you want, what

864
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: you don't want. And this is not about sex. This

865
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: is not meeting to pick people up for sex. This

866
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: is literally for cuddling. And hey, if people like hit

867
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 1: it off and want a date after, like cool, that's fine.

868
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: But I was reading this like, there's no way that

869
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: is so like murder central in my brain. And and

870
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people out there are we

871
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: just got really offended. I'm I'm i am sorry. That's

872
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: just me personally being totally afraid to cuddle with strangers. Yeah, yeah,

873
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: you and I have similar I think personal cuddle boundaries. Yeah,

874
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,760
Speaker 1: I mean that sense if I don't even like shaking hands,

875
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: and you don't want a sweaty cuttle, I don't I have.

876
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 1: When I was in high school, UM, like a bunch

877
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: of friends and I used to have like we'd all

878
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 1: be hanging out at night or whatever, and we used

879
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: to have, um basically the congo line equivalent of cuddling.

880
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: There would be like fifteen or twenty of us like

881
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: lying down, just spooning. It was hysterical. Maybe some alcohol

882
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 1: was involved. It's the smelly cuttle um when I don't

883
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 1: have her name in front of me. But a writer

884
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:57,439
Speaker 1: over at Daily Dot tested out the Spooner app, and

885
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 1: one of her main complaints in terms of safe d

886
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 1: was that you can't um select by gender. So if

887
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: you want a same sex cuddle because that might make

888
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 1: you feel safer, um, Spooner doesn't let you do that

889
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: because Williams thinks that you know, it should be because

890
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: Williams thinks that it shouldn't be a sexual thing. But

891
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 1: in her experience, the people who are messaging her were

892
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: almost exclusively dudes who seem to want uh well, who

893
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: want a sexy times Hello, have you been on the internet. Yes,

894
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: that is how those things are gonna work. Sorry, Charlie Williams.

895
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 1: And you're like utopian view of cuddling apps literally, sorry Charlie. Yeah, yeah,

896
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 1: I wonder though, if there are any listeners who have

897
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: tried spooner, please tell us if it goes better then

898
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: it seems like it might. This is why the world

899
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: needs Bundler, Kristen. We would ensure that there was a

900
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 1: gender selection, but would it only be for proper courtship.

901
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. I haven't thought that. We haven't. We

902
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 1: haven't developed our business plan yet. Um. But if you

903
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: want to cuddle in a safer context, you can go

904
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: to a cuddle party. Caudle parties exist and they are

905
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: organized by groups around the country, like Minnesota's Nurture Yourself,

906
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: Um and you started in early two thousand's And usually

907
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: if you go to a cuddle party, it's exactly what

908
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: it sounds like. It's kind of like Carolines high school experience,

909
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 1: minus the booze. You're not allowed to go drunk, um,

910
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,959
Speaker 1: but you wear pj's a lot of cuddle party rules

911
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 1: asked that you don't eat garlic beforehand. Smart are very smart,

912
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,399
Speaker 1: and I will give them this. There are a lot

913
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: of rules around consent. Yeah. Yeah, they make sure to

914
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 1: set it up ahead of time that you know, no

915
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: means no respect everybody's boundaries, all of that stuff, which

916
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: is incredibly important in any context. But I especially appreciated

917
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,840
Speaker 1: how Nurture Yourself noted that crying and giggling are encouraged

918
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 1: at their cuddle parties. Um, and it's exactly what it

919
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: sounds like. I mean, you kind of you start off

920
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: with sort of a group orientation and then gradually it

921
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: evolves into one giant cuddle puddle. Yeah, and people are

922
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 1: making money off of this. People are there are professional

923
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: cuddlers out there. And you know, we're not talking about

924
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 1: some Japanese trend that has probably been misinterpreted in American media.

925
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 1: We're talking about in the United States, professional cuddlers have

926
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: opened up shop. And this was reported on in the

927
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal, which I especially appreciate it. I love

928
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,399
Speaker 1: picturing my father picking up the Wall Street Journal, which

929
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: he gets in the mail, and reading an article about

930
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 1: professional cuddlers. I imagine he just clears his throat very

931
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,720
Speaker 1: and comfortably, puts the paper down and makes a sandwich.

932
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 1: But it's a serious business. These professional cuddlers will charge

933
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 1: clients for non sexual snuggles. Obviously the number one thing

934
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: that these professionals have to combat our perceptions that it

935
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 1: is a form of prostitute san essentially her sex work. Um.

936
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: But business names include Cuddle Up to Me, The Snuggery,

937
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 1: and Cuttle Therapy. And I think Cuddle Therapy was one

938
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 1: of the original ones, open not surprisingly in San Francisco.

939
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: And I mean, obviously it is easy to laugh and

940
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: dismiss this kind of stuff, but they also talked to

941
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: a woman named Samantha Hess who opened up Portland's Cuddle

942
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: Up to Me, and she specializes in cuddles for people

943
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: who've experienced trauma, people with autism, and she says that

944
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: she regularly sees people with disabilities and disfigurements who just

945
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: in a very human nature way, just need that human contact. Yeah,

946
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 1: I mean, in that way, it's um it makes sense

947
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: that these businesses exist and that in that clients seek

948
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: them out for for non sexual purposes. Just I think

949
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 1: it was it was her talking about how you know,

950
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: a lot of These people just want to feel special

951
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: and loved for a moment um. And she's actually developed

952
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: an entire curriculum of areas, types of cuddles that clients

953
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 1: can come in and select. Um. I think there are

954
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: lots of elderly patients or clients I should say as well,

955
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: because they live in such isolation. Human touch is so important,

956
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: it is. I'm a total convert, Yeah, todu to professional cuddling. Uh,

957
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 1: not for me personally, but now I'm a I'm a

958
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: convert since I started dating my boyfriend to convert general cuddling. Well,

959
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 1: now I'm curious to know about our listeners. Are you

960
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: into cuddling? Do you have any thoughts about cuddling? Have

961
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: you ever been to a cuddle party? We want to

962
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: know all of your cuddling thoughts and guys, do you

963
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: ever encounter those bogus gender stereotypes if you're a dude

964
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: who likes to cuddle, has it ever backfired on you?

965
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at house stuff works dot Com is our

966
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 1: mailing address. You can also tweet us at mom stuff

967
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: podcast or messages on Facebook and We've got a couple

968
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 1: of messages to share with you when we come right

969
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: back from a break, Caroline. I'm in the process of

970
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: giving my personal site, christ and Conger dot com a

971
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 1: makeover thanks to square Space, and I can tell you

972
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: firsthand that it is super easy to use, intuitive and

973
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: they have fantastic design aesthetics. So my new site is

974
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: going to look real nice. It's just pictures of Beyonce though,

975
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: right pretty much? Yeah? Basically, um So, regardless of what

976
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: celebrity you put on your personal website, we use square Space.

977
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,479
Speaker 1: It's going to look professionally designed, regardless of skill level,

978
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: and there's no coding required. They've got intuitive and easy

979
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 1: to use tools, and you get a free domain if

980
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 1: you sign up for a year. But folks, that means

981
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: that Kristen Conger dot com is taken, so don't even dry.

982
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: But to start your free trial today, head on over

983
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: to square space dot com. And when you de sign

984
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: to sign up for square Space, make sure you use

985
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 1: our offer code mom staff to get ten percent off

986
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 1: your first per which squarespace you should. And now back

987
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 1: to the show. I have a let her here from

988
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: Michelle in response to our episode on Wrinkles. She says, Hello,

989
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: I've been listening for a long time and I'm writing

990
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 1: in for the first time. Now. I just listen to

991
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 1: your episode on wrinkles, and something you mentioned sounded exactly

992
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: like what I've been told in real life. You talked

993
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 1: about a study where older women are judged to look

994
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 1: angry and unapproachable because of their sagging skin. Those exact

995
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: same words angry and unapproachable were thrown at me in

996
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: a job evaluation a couple of years ago. I'm fairly

997
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: young and don't have wrinkles yet, but do have resting

998
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: bitch face. I'm already hyper conscious of what my face

999
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 1: is doing at all times now thanks to that evaluation,

1000
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 1: and I'm terrified now of what's going to happen when

1001
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: I start getting wrinkles. Will I be judged to be

1002
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: even angrier and more unapproachable than I am now? Will

1003
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: I live alone forever with my cat because other humans

1004
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 1: don't think I'm pleasant enough of The connection between resting

1005
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: bitch face and wrinkles is one I hadn't made before.

1006
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,919
Speaker 1: Men are allowed to have normal, resting faces and age

1007
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: while women are not. At the same time, a male

1008
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 1: coworker that had what I would call arresting angry face

1009
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 1: and I were talking about our evaluations. I told him

1010
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: that I was called angry. He said that he was

1011
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: simply told to work on his communication skills. It's enough

1012
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: to make my mood reflect what my face is apparently

1013
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: already showing. Here's to hoping that society changes enough by

1014
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 1: the time I start getting wrinkles to keep me from

1015
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 1: being friendless forever. I know you've done a video on

1016
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: resting bitch Face, but if you ever do a whole podcast,

1017
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 1: I'll certainly be interested. Thank you for all the work

1018
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 1: you do well. Thank you, Michelle, and I'm sorry about

1019
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 1: your evaluation at work. That's a fantastic idea. We should

1020
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 1: so do a Resting Bitch Face episode. Uh So, I've

1021
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 1: got a letter here from Janice about our street Art

1022
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 1: Sisterhood podcast, and she writes, while I'm not at artists,

1023
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,919
Speaker 1: I am a professional visual artist. About three years ago,

1024
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 1: I took a deep breath, scrapped the serving job I had,

1025
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 1: and went into business for myself full time as an artist.

1026
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 1: Since then, I've been really working to build my portfolio

1027
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: and get into galleries and such here in the Austin

1028
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: area while surviving off of commissions and a part time

1029
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 1: job at a local arts store. Thanks to the Internet,

1030
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: I'm now able to reach an audience that allows me

1031
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: to actually do this, but it also gives me a

1032
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 1: mask to wear, and it sometimes gives me some interesting

1033
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: insights into how artists are viewed. One such insight I've

1034
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 1: blamed is that people almost always assume that I'm male.

1035
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 1: I'm almost without fail, referred to as a heat even

1036
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: though my name is Jannist and a lot of people

1037
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: find me through my website. Here's a real insight though,

1038
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: for myself. I learned early on that the mask of

1039
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 1: anonymity can actually help me get a better sale. I'm

1040
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 1: not sure why, but when people find out I'm female,

1041
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 1: they seem to want to haggle with the price more.

1042
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 1: Not sure if everyone else's experiences, but it seems that

1043
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 1: people think the work of women is somehow diminished versus

1044
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 1: the work of a male counterpart. I've only been listening

1045
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 1: to your podcast for about a month, and I'm so

1046
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: excited to have found you, and I listened to you

1047
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: know all the time while I'm painting and creating. Thank

1048
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: you so much for the really interesting topics and a

1049
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 1: more female viewpoint. A lot of podcasts have resonated with

1050
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:18,520
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