Speaker 1: Robert Evans here and we'll get to the Vince McMahon
Speaker 1: episodes in a second. I wanted to let you all
Speaker 1: know that for the fourth year in a row, we
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Speaker 1: welcome back to Behind the Bastards. We're gearing up for
Speaker 1: a really intense match today. In one corner of the
Speaker 1: room we have Sean Baby, the famous guy on the Internet,
Speaker 1: and on the under court of By God, it's Tom
Speaker 1: Rayman with a steel chair O the.
Speaker 2: Cream the crop rising a top the cream Crop. I
Speaker 2: don't know why I had to pick one of you
Speaker 2: to be the Steelers.
Speaker 3: Bring this energy, but let me get into it, grabbed
Speaker 3: the bolls of your enemies and used him to power
Speaker 3: the thrusters that take the Warriors rocket to the top
Speaker 3: of the Bastards.
Speaker 2: Well, that was great.
Speaker 1: This is behind the Bastards podcast that is inconsistently opened,
Speaker 1: but I appreciate the edge that you both lent to this.
Speaker 1: We Are We Are, We Are Coming in Hot and
Speaker 1: Part two of the Vince McMahon series, the episode where
Speaker 1: we finally talk about Vince McMahon. I hope you're all
Speaker 1: now caught up all of our people who were not
Speaker 1: coming in as wrestling fans, and I also hope that
Speaker 1: our wrestling fans learn a thing or two in our
Speaker 1: last episode before we diverted to talk about the von
Speaker 1: eric family. I kind of left wrestling in the fifties
Speaker 1: and sixties when the NWA and television had started to
Speaker 1: turn it into a big business with seriously big money
Speaker 1: for the first time. Now, today, pro wrestling salaries are
Speaker 1: pretty pitiful. I think the average is like fifty two
Speaker 1: thousand per year, which may sound good for you if
Speaker 1: you're making like thirty five grand a year, but you
Speaker 1: have to remember your job does not entail getting a
Speaker 1: head injury every single night. So it's really you have
Speaker 1: to cut some dollars off of that salary, which is
Speaker 1: not wildly you know, crazy anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, makes you this.
Speaker 3: You live on a bus, you'd pay eight grand a
Speaker 3: month for painkillers and steroids. You get hitting out of
Speaker 3: the chair seven times a day, and any tiny mistake
Speaker 3: will get you fired.
Speaker 1: Yeah, making making an average American middle class salary for
Speaker 1: collecting TBIs like kids in the nineties collected hogs.
Speaker 4: And by the way, you have no retirement and retirement
Speaker 4: absolutely whatsoever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, your retirement is dying at thirty seven.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's your pension. Is you're not gonna make it
Speaker 1: to fifty. You're secure in the knowledge.
Speaker 2: That you're not.
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the saddest moments in kind of
Speaker 1: pro wrestling history is is my hero Rowdy Roddy Piper,
Speaker 1: when he was like sixty or sixty one, gave an
Speaker 1: interview where he was like, look like, I'm out of cash,
Speaker 1: you know, between the medical bills and everything, Like, I
Speaker 1: don't have you know, any of the money left that
Speaker 1: I made during all of those years that I was
Speaker 1: one of the biggest stars in wrestling. You know, I'm Canadian,
Speaker 1: I have a pension, but it doesn't kick in until
Speaker 1: I'm sixty five, and I'm not going to make it
Speaker 1: to sixty five. Like it's a bleak, bleak interview to watch. Yeah, Anyway,
Speaker 1: that's the way things are now. Back in the day,
Speaker 1: in this kind of period where we're having the first
Speaker 1: real big height of wrestling and alevision kind of coming together,
Speaker 1: wrestlers were paid reasonably well. Now they're destroying their bodies
Speaker 1: probably at a faster rate. Right, we know less for
Speaker 1: one thing, Like we didn't know what we know now
Speaker 1: about steroids, so it was kind of impossible to do
Speaker 1: them without destroying your heart very rapidly. Nowadays you can't, like,
Speaker 1: you know, all these like celebrities who are on steroids
Speaker 1: for movies and stuff aren't doing the same thing to
Speaker 1: their bodies that like the Vaughan Erik kids work, Which
Speaker 1: is not to say you should do steroids listeners, it's
Speaker 1: just it's it's less toxic.
Speaker 3: Now are going to steroids do them today? Not in
Speaker 3: nineteen fifty eight.
Speaker 1: Yes, don't do steroids and yeah, yeah, and also you.
Speaker 2: Know, but Jose Canseco's book juice. He's got some tips
Speaker 2: travel to the future. Think his book Travel to the
Speaker 2: Future Your Steroids.
Speaker 1: When you do enough steroids, you visit the future. But
Speaker 1: in those days and kind of this first big wave
Speaker 1: in the sixties, most pros were compensated pretty well. That
Speaker 1: is to say that we're making what people at the
Speaker 1: time would have considered pretty good money. This is one
Speaker 1: of the reasons why wrestling never unionized. We'll talk a
Speaker 1: little bit later about another reason why it didn't unionize,
Speaker 1: but kind of at the beginning of its rise to prominence,
Speaker 1: a lot of guys would be like, well, we're making
Speaker 1: great money, why do we need to unionize. The answer
Speaker 1: to that is because Vince McMahon will inevitably come along
Speaker 1: in your industry.
Speaker 3: When you said the other reason they didn't unionize him
Speaker 3: like he's talking about Ncentman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, but that comes later, so he's on his way,
Speaker 2: like fanos So.
Speaker 1: Television caused wrestling to go mainstream, and TV execs during
Speaker 1: the Golden Age of TV loved it because wrestling not
Speaker 1: only did it get a lot of eyeballs, people are
Speaker 1: always wanting to rotch wrestling. It's incredibly cheap to produce,
Speaker 1: right you don't need a ton of blocking, you don't
Speaker 1: need you know, special effects people. You don't need the
Speaker 1: same kind of you know stars that you have to
Speaker 1: have for a drama or something. You need a ring
Speaker 1: in huge men who are willing to hurt themselves for money, right.
Speaker 3: Its own like source of profit, like the ticket sales,
Speaker 3: and yeah, yeah, and yeah sorry, I'm just saying you
Speaker 3: can theoretically make money on a wrestling broadcast before even
Speaker 3: gets on TV.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're getting to that. That is what people
Speaker 1: eventually figure it out. And one of the first people
Speaker 1: to realize kind of how profitable television could be for
Speaker 1: wrestling was Vincent James McMahon, the father of our Vince.
Speaker 1: He was born on July sixth, nineteen fourteen, to a
Speaker 1: sports promoter named Jess McMahon in West Harlem. Now, over time,
Speaker 1: Vince we'll call him Vince Senior for the purpose of
Speaker 1: these episodes, and we'll call r Vince Vince Junior otherwise
Speaker 1: it's going to get way too complicated. Over time, Vince
Speaker 1: Senior's father and older brother got really into boxing promotion,
Speaker 1: and you know, Vince Senior eventually follows his dad as
Speaker 1: a promoter in nineteen thirty one, his dad noticed that
Speaker 1: pro wrestling seemed to be a growing concern. People are
Speaker 1: really getting into the kind of thing a lot more.
Speaker 1: So he decided to promote a match, and he wound
Speaker 1: up thinking it might be a good business. For the
Speaker 1: next fifteen years, Vince McMahon Senior's father worked in both
Speaker 1: boxing and wrestling, booking matches all throughout the Greater New
Speaker 1: York area. He expanded his business to DC and sent
Speaker 1: his son to run his office there. Vincent Senior was
Speaker 1: on a swell path until you know, World War Two happened,
Speaker 1: that whole shebang, and he had to go overseas for
Speaker 1: a couple of years in the military. It was during
Speaker 1: this period that he met up with a young woman
Speaker 1: named Vicky Hanner. By nineteen forty three, Vicky was pregnant
Speaker 1: with his child. This is going to be our Vince McMahon.
Speaker 1: Vicky was married to another guy at the time, and
Speaker 1: while they did file for divorce before she got pregnant,
Speaker 1: or while he filed a divorce petition against her before
Speaker 1: she got pregnant, she didn't like do anything with it,
Speaker 1: and so the divorce didn't go through until nineteen forty seven,
Speaker 1: she and Vincent Senior, while kind of in a big
Speaker 1: amous relationship, moved to New York, where they had their
Speaker 1: first son, Roderick James McMahon, who is Vince McMahon's older brother,
Speaker 1: out of wedlock on October twelfth. The couple were married
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty four, while Vicki is again still legally
Speaker 1: married to her first husband, which means that Vincent might
Speaker 1: technically qualify as a literal bastard, although the timing here
Speaker 1: is a little fuzzy. In August of night. Huh, how
Speaker 1: often does that happen? Very rarely, most of our bastards.
Speaker 1: They're born within the bounds of holy matrimony.
Speaker 2: Really, okay? Nice born into ethics is well? Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, in August of nineteen forty five, Vincent Senior was
Speaker 1: honorably discharged and a few days later their second son,
Speaker 1: Vincent Kennedy McMahon. That's our Vince McMahon, was born in
Speaker 1: North Carolina. I'm sorry the Vince McMahon's here, It is
Speaker 1: a little complex at this point.
Speaker 2: I don't buy it.
Speaker 4: They found him in the forest.
Speaker 2: They pulled him out of a bush. Yeah, yeah, he
Speaker 2: was a He was in a pod. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's in a tuber with like, I don't know
Speaker 1: the guy who owns the Knicks currently pull them both
Speaker 1: up at the same time. So Vince McMahon are Vince McMahon.
Speaker 1: Vince Junior was baptized in a local Catholic church, which
Speaker 1: Riseman notes would be the only real influence that Vincent
Speaker 1: Senior had on his son for more than a decade.
Speaker 1: Right because his family's Catholic. He makes sure the kid
Speaker 1: gets baptized in a Catholic church. And then he and
Speaker 1: Vicky split the fuck up and we don't really know why,
Speaker 1: but Vicky has a lot of husbands, so this is
Speaker 1: like not a not an uncommon thing for her to
Speaker 1: like get married to a guy and then for them
Speaker 1: to split up for a while.
Speaker 4: Given given what we know happens in the future, it's
Speaker 4: we could blame this on Vince McMahon, Yes, and I.
Speaker 1: Think it is generally fair to blame the child and
Speaker 1: incidents of divorce. I think we can all usually yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the official stance of this podcast. So he gets
Speaker 1: together after Vincent Senior leaves with a guy named Leo
Speaker 1: Lupton Junior. Leo is a high school dropout and an
Speaker 1: electrician who had already abandoned one family before he got
Speaker 1: married to this family in nineteen Again, these are honestly
Speaker 1: these are my people, right, this is this is the American,
Speaker 1: the Heartland.
Speaker 2: Yes, classic American.
Speaker 4: Listen to the Allman Brothers always leaving his family in
Speaker 4: the rear view Marriaga.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's his hobby, is leaving families. It's an rd
Speaker 2: form for some abandoning his family. Good stuff.
Speaker 1: So he abandons his first family in nineteen forty, and
Speaker 1: it's it's very funny. So before he meets Vicky, he
Speaker 1: abandons this first family, a wife and a daughter, and
Speaker 1: he gets like charged and convicted for this and his
Speaker 1: sentence for abandoning his family, he is sentenced to quote
Speaker 1: two years on the roads.
Speaker 2: What does that mean? You're exiled from the cities. I
Speaker 2: didn't know.
Speaker 1: My guess is like, realistically, probably some sort of like
Speaker 1: hard labor on the highway system. But that that is
Speaker 1: a Cormack McCarthy ass sounding just.
Speaker 2: Like and his bindle. Two years in the roads. God,
Speaker 2: the forties were funny.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess some unfunny stuff happened, but it
Speaker 1: was mostly a laugh.
Speaker 2: So this would be the pillow in the sky, shall
Speaker 2: be a blanket sentenced to hobo.
Speaker 1: Honestly, we ought to be doing that now, like when
Speaker 1: we had the big financial crash in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 1: All those bankers. You gotta be a hobo. Now you
Speaker 1: gotta go wander with a bendle no more than two
Speaker 1: nights in the same city. God, what a cool sounding punishment.
Speaker 1: So he finishes his time on the roads and gets
Speaker 1: together with Vicki after she breaks up with Vincent Senior.
Speaker 1: They get married in nineteen forty seven. This is her
Speaker 1: third marriage in six years, which is honestly pretty impressive.
Speaker 1: For now, those are some numbers. I'll give it to her.
Speaker 1: So Vince McMahon are Vince McMahon. Vince Junior is a
Speaker 1: professional liar and a fabulous In another era he would
Speaker 1: have been a Carnival barker. And this is a problem
Speaker 1: for us because he's been pretty good over the years
Speaker 1: at doing his own PR.
Speaker 4: In this era, he's a party. He is a Carnival marker. Yes,
Speaker 4: he's the most Carney son of a bis. He does
Speaker 4: have strong Carnie energy. He's been doing his own pr
Speaker 4: for quite a while and he's given a couple of
Speaker 4: remarkable interviews where he goes into honestly startling detail about
Speaker 4: his father and his own childhood, although you can't ever
Speaker 4: trust anything he says entirely, like, you have to go
Speaker 4: over this kind of stuff because number one, even if
Speaker 4: he's lying, it's fascinating that he would say some of
Speaker 4: these things. But you always take it with a grain
Speaker 4: of salt. So one of the two really good, good
Speaker 4: interviews we have where he talks about his early life
Speaker 4: is a feature with New York Magazine titled Beyond Fake
Speaker 4: and written by veteran journalist Nancy Joe Sales. The other
Speaker 4: is an interview in Playboy Magazine with an unnamed reporter
Speaker 4: who sounds like the kind of dude you'd expect to
Speaker 4: find wrestling interviewing wrestling promoters for Playboy magazine, And unfortunately,
Speaker 4: the Playboy interview was the one where he gives us
Speaker 4: the most detail about his childhood. It is worth noting
Speaker 4: that this interview was conducted as part of a promotional
Speaker 4: campaign Vince was doing for the XFL, which was supposed
Speaker 4: to be an ultra violent football league with no rules
Speaker 4: and wound up collapsing inside of a year because all
Speaker 4: of the athletes were hoping to get hired by the NFL,
Speaker 4: and none of them wanted to suffer life altering energies
Speaker 4: injuries in the XFL. So Vince is very much in
Speaker 4: macho mode while he's doing this piece. You know, he's
Speaker 4: trying to sell himself in order to sell the XFL.
Speaker 4: You know, as a result. For example, he starts this
Speaker 4: interview by talking about how he doesn't feel pain, which
Speaker 4: is why he's so good at taking hits in the ring.
Speaker 4: Later in the interview, he calls his stepfather, Leo Lupton,
Speaker 4: a real asshole who quote enjoyed kicking people around. Playboy
Speaker 4: asks him, your stepfather beat you, and Vince nods yes.
Speaker 4: Quote It's unfortunate that he died before I could kill him.
Speaker 4: I would have enjoyed that, not that he didn't have
Speaker 4: some redeeming qualities. He was an athlete, great at any sport,
Speaker 4: which I admired, and I remember watching the Jackie Gleason
Speaker 4: Show with him. We used to laugh together at Jackie Gleason.
Speaker 2: Jesus.
Speaker 3: I like the idea of going through masturbating to a
Speaker 3: magazine and getting to the story and being like, hm,
Speaker 3: it only makes it hotter.
Speaker 2: For me, I'm being honest.
Speaker 4: You gradually stop masturbating as you're reading.
Speaker 1: After a solid hour with the restart, after a solid
Speaker 1: hour with this ball draining cum mag I was happy
Speaker 1: to see Vince McMahon's face.
Speaker 2: Let me know I could rehydrate a very alluring story,
Speaker 2: mister McMahon, Thank you.
Speaker 3: So this interview, say it's slower.
Speaker 4: Everyone gripping their dick really appreciates it.
Speaker 1: So one of the great things about this, like that's
Speaker 1: an objectively insane thing to say, Like it's unfortunate he
Speaker 1: died before I could kill him, but at least we
Speaker 1: used to listen to laugh at Jackie Gleason together, Like
Speaker 1: that's sh right, that's a crazy thing to tell.
Speaker 2: Playboy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot there, and the
Speaker 1: interview like, honestly low key. The interviewer here is also
Speaker 1: a bastard because after he says we used to laugh
Speaker 1: together at Jackie Gleason, the Playboy journalist says Lupton was
Speaker 1: an electrician. He hit you with his tools, didn't he
Speaker 1: a pipe wrench?
Speaker 2: What jesus what Vince?
Speaker 1: Vince says, sure, sure, and then the Playboy guy says
Speaker 1: hit your brother too, and Vince says, God, no, I
Speaker 1: was the only one of the kids who would speak up,
Speaker 1: and that's what provoked the attacks. You would think that
Speaker 1: after being on the receiving end of numerous attacks, I
Speaker 1: would wise up, but I couldn't.
Speaker 2: I refuse to.
Speaker 1: I felt I should say something, even though I knew
Speaker 1: what the result would be. And that's like, you know again,
Speaker 1: obviously he's he's he's in part doing this to like
Speaker 1: mythologize like this, I'm like, this is like in context,
Speaker 1: he starts with being like, I'm tough, I don't feel pain.
Speaker 1: I learned how to not feel pain because my dad
Speaker 1: beat me. He beat me because I wouldn't stop mouthing off, right,
Speaker 1: like this is both possibly parts of this are I'm
Speaker 1: sure parts of this are true. And also he's telling
Speaker 1: you this because he thinks it makes him look cool.
Speaker 1: Which is this like just an undeniable aspect of this
Speaker 1: Playboy interview And.
Speaker 2: Then his story is just getting completely poisoned by this
Speaker 2: interviewer who in this interviewer, it's a piece of shit.
Speaker 2: You don't want to say no to this, but.
Speaker 1: Maybe he hits you with a ridge, right, So Vince
Speaker 1: claims the physical abuse started when he was six, and
Speaker 1: continued for the next half decade or so at least.
Speaker 1: When the playboy guy tells him, that's an awful way
Speaker 1: to learn how a man behaves, Vince gives this line,
Speaker 1: I learned how not to be. One thing I loathe
Speaker 1: is a man who will strike a woman. There's never
Speaker 1: an excuse for that. Now hold on to that for
Speaker 1: a moment, folks, because we'll be talking about this a
Speaker 1: little later.
Speaker 2: Oh boy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Leo went on to have a son later in life.
Speaker 1: Leo Lupton his stepdad, and this son when interviewered by
Speaker 1: I believe it was Josie Riiseman who interviewed his son,
Speaker 1: who is like Vincent R. Vincent's half brother, this guy says,
Speaker 1: I didn't experience any abuse like our dad, you know,
Speaker 1: didn't hit me. Obviously, that doesn't mean Vince isn't telling
Speaker 1: the truth. This kind of thing happens all the time.
Speaker 1: That said, like, it's also I'm trying both not to
Speaker 1: deny because it's entirely possible that Vince and in fact
Speaker 1: probably pretty likely that he received something we would consider
Speaker 1: physical child abuse, and also every word, nearly every word
Speaker 1: out of Vince McMahon's mouth is a lie and has
Speaker 1: been for like fifty years. This is a complicated thing
Speaker 1: that in your head ethically, but I think both of
Speaker 1: those things need to be acknowledged.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I don't doubt that this was a difficult period in
Speaker 1: his childhood. He certainly reports that. And Leo Lupton is
Speaker 1: a bit of a dirt bag. So again, you know,
Speaker 1: all of this, all of these things can be true.
Speaker 1: And while his biological dad was While this was all
Speaker 1: going on, his biological dad, Vincent Senior was reaping the
Speaker 1: sweet rewards of abandoning both of his children to focus
Speaker 1: on his wrestling career. When Jess McMahon R, Vince's grandfather
Speaker 1: died in nineteen fifty four, Vincent Senior took over what
Speaker 1: had become a sizable family business, one of the larger
Speaker 1: wrestling concerns in the United States. Syndicate's probably a better
Speaker 1: thing to call it. So Vincent Senior was known to
Speaker 1: his wrestlers as a nice guy and a world of
Speaker 1: promoters that were mostly unhinged psychopaths. Right, most wrestling promoters,
Speaker 1: most syndicate leaders are like you know, von Eric, Right,
Speaker 1: they are like just a slight step away from just
Speaker 1: being a straight up gang boss and some of them
Speaker 1: are literally gang bosses. Yeah, the these people are like
Speaker 1: wild men. And by the way, Vincent Senior does work
Speaker 1: pretty closely with Toots. Vincent Senior is generally known as
Speaker 1: like he's a relatively honest one. He's reasonably good to
Speaker 1: work for. Now, this is what a lot of his
Speaker 1: wrestlers will say. I'm not sure if that's actually true
Speaker 1: or if he was just really good at being likable
Speaker 1: while he fucked people over, and he just kind of
Speaker 1: was able to differentiate differentiate himself from the other leaders
Speaker 1: because he dressed better and he was kind of nicer
Speaker 1: to his employees to their faces. There's some interviews that
Speaker 1: make me suspect that his reputation for being a decent
Speaker 1: guy was largely the result of kind of his marketing.
Speaker 1: One of these is a quote from Jesse the Body
Speaker 1: Ventura quote. You could be angry at Vince Senior for
Speaker 1: a payoff. You'd walk in, you'd voice your complaint, you'd
Speaker 1: walk out, and you'd feel great, and yet you got
Speaker 1: no more money when he was sticking it to you.
Speaker 1: He always made you feel good while he was doing it.
Speaker 1: And Jesse the Body Venture is somebody we're going to
Speaker 1: be hearing from a little bit later as well. Fascinating man. So,
Speaker 1: Vince Senior was a ruthless businessman, but he was also
Speaker 1: a team player. When the Justice Department cracked down on
Speaker 1: the NWA for being an illegal cartel and threatening independent promoters,
Speaker 1: Vincent Senior tampered with a witness, threatening one of his
Speaker 1: wrestlers to change their testimony before a deposition. He's not
Speaker 1: in the WA, but he's an affiliate. And when they
Speaker 1: come to him being like, hey, one of your guys
Speaker 1: is gonna, you know, basically testify to the government that
Speaker 1: we're operating as an illegal cartel in order to keep
Speaker 1: the prices low for you know, paying our wrestlers, Vince
Speaker 1: sits down with this guy and he's like, hey, man,
Speaker 1: this is the end of your career if you if
Speaker 1: you do this shit. You know, he's he's that guy.
Speaker 1: He is willing to go to bat for his industry,
Speaker 1: for the owners in his industry.
Speaker 2: Good for him, Good for him? Yeah, maybe or maybe
Speaker 2: I'm confused. This might be terribly ethical.
Speaker 1: So as far as I can tell, it doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like little kid Vince was particularly into wrestling during the
Speaker 1: years when he didn't know his biological father. In fairness,
Speaker 1: he seems to have had a lot on his mind
Speaker 1: besides the fact that his stepdad was a violent guy.
Speaker 1: In that Playboy interview, he mentions having been the victim
Speaker 1: of some kind of sex abuse as a child. The
Speaker 1: interviewer asks him for details, and this is this journalist
Speaker 1: is the worst person to interview somebody about potentially being
Speaker 1: victim of a sex crime. Vince's first response when the
Speaker 1: interviewer asked for details is actually pretty reasonable. He says,
Speaker 1: that's not anything I would like to embellish just because
Speaker 1: it was weird. The interviewer kind of assumes he's talking
Speaker 1: about being sexually abused by a male adult, and Vincent
Speaker 1: tells him, no, it was not from a man. And
Speaker 1: then the Playboy interviewer asks, it's well known that you're
Speaker 1: estranged from your mother. Have we found the reason now
Speaker 1: why I might rather die than ask that question of
Speaker 1: anyone without an extremely good reason?
Speaker 2: But are you fishing for trauma? Dude?
Speaker 1: Like that is part of me, and I maybe I'm
Speaker 1: just kind of being hopeful part of me wonders if,
Speaker 1: like maybe he and Vince cleared some stuff ahead of
Speaker 1: time and planting Vince is again a k fabe guy,
Speaker 1: right like he is, he does this so.
Speaker 2: Maybe because the it is weird.
Speaker 1: It's wild to ask a guy that question and not
Speaker 1: get fucking cold cocked. Yes, like, but maybe they were.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I like, I really don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh So anyway, Vince answers and says, you know, after
Speaker 1: this guy says it's well, you know, you're strange from
Speaker 1: your mom, and we found basically insinuating did your mom
Speaker 1: sexually like abuse you, Vince asks, answers. I'd say that's
Speaker 1: pretty close. So for quite a while everyone took that
Speaker 1: as like Vince confirming that his mom sexually abused him.
Speaker 2: So that's what he wants us to believe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's hard to interpret that any other way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, every Evince's man, I mean, it's just what
Speaker 4: you were saying earlier. Every interview I've ever seen Evince
Speaker 4: seems like it's at least partially a work exactly regardless
Speaker 4: of what he's talking about, it always seems like he's
Speaker 4: performing to an extent. So it's really hard to it's
Speaker 4: it is.
Speaker 1: It is extremely hard to tell with Vince McMahon because
Speaker 1: he's Vince McMahon.
Speaker 2: Now, she did some weird sex stuff with my mom.
Speaker 2: Watched thel.
Speaker 1: And it's like, you know, obviously some people will bring up, well,
Speaker 1: he took care of his mom. He like gave her
Speaker 1: money and stuff for the rest of her life, which
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean she didn't sexually abuse him, right, Like family,
Speaker 1: this all, this stuff's all complicated. Around the same time
Speaker 1: as this playboy interview, I think a little bit afterwards
Speaker 1: he winds up, definitely afterwards. He winds up on The
Speaker 1: Howard Stern Show to promote a pay per view wrestling
Speaker 1: event and also to promote the XFL. Howard Stern is
Speaker 1: Howard Stern if you're not aware. So of course he
Speaker 1: brings up these allegations of like child molestations, saying he'd
Speaker 1: read that Vince had been molested by his mother. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm going to read a quote from Jody Risman's book
Speaker 1: Ring Master, relating the rest of that conversation. I didn't
Speaker 1: say that, Vince countered in a tone that suggested a
Speaker 1: rising shield. That was the inference. Stern's co host, Robin
Speaker 1: Quivers asked, what did she do? Vince didn't answer. Stern posited,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but whatever it was, it was not good.
Speaker 1: Vince blurted out and obviously forced laughed. Vince, you get
Speaker 1: all choked up when you talk about it, right, Stern asked,
Speaker 1: I'd rather not talk about that stuff. Vince replied, Quivers,
Speaker 1: your mother is around, and you don't talk to her. Vince,
Speaker 1: not a lot. Stern, Boy, did she blow it? Because man,
Speaker 1: you're a billionaire. Does she get any money from the WWF,
Speaker 1: Quivers asked, referring to WWE by its then current name.
Speaker 1: Stern interrupted the question to add, I just realized when
Speaker 1: I said did she blow it? That's the question. Everyone
Speaker 1: in the studios yelled out a mock disapproving oh at
Speaker 1: the host's stick joke. Well, everyone other than Vince. Vince,
Speaker 1: I apologize. Stern said, that would be traumatic, that would
Speaker 1: be trim ma. Vince said, right now, that is again
Speaker 1: fucking insane. What that is like, Howard Stern, you don't
Speaker 1: you don't make a blow job joke about somebody's being
Speaker 1: sexually abused when they were like six.
Speaker 2: You just you don't do that. That's that's really bad. Howard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I don't know what to say about that.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm in the unusual position of feeling bad
Speaker 4: for Vince.
Speaker 1: I do kind of feel bad for Vince there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's brutal.
Speaker 2: That is that is that's out of its fucking mind.
Speaker 2: This is that is that happened?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something else. So in that Playboy article, Vince
Speaker 1: went into what I would describe as a baffling degree
Speaker 1: of detail about his early life, just outside of the
Speaker 1: stuff we've already talked about. At one point, the interviewer
Speaker 1: asks him when he lost his virgin which is at
Speaker 1: least kind of a normal Playboy question, although it's weird
Speaker 1: to ask that after he has talked about being sexually
Speaker 1: assaulted as a child. Yeah, and it's I kind of
Speaker 1: get the feeling that both men do not consider being
Speaker 1: molested to be the same as losing your virginity, which
Speaker 1: actually kind of I mean, I think you could argue
Speaker 1: makes a degree of sense because they're talking about having
Speaker 1: a consensual sexual experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes it. That makes sense the spirit of
Speaker 2: the question, I would not count it, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Anyway, his response here is still one of the most
Speaker 1: baffling things I have ever seen a man admit to
Speaker 1: in a public forum. And this is him again talking
Speaker 1: about losing his virginity. That was at a very young age.
Speaker 1: I remember, probably in the first grade, being invited to
Speaker 1: a matine film with my stepbrother and his girlfriends, and
Speaker 1: I remember them playing with me, playing with my penis
Speaker 1: and giggling. I thought that was pretty cool. That was
Speaker 1: my initiation into sex. At that age. You don't necessarily
Speaker 1: achieve an erection, but it was cool. And around the
Speaker 1: same there was a girl my age who was in essence,
Speaker 1: my cousin. Later in life, she actually wound up marrying
Speaker 1: that asshole, Leo Lupton, my stepfather, a boy. This sounds
Speaker 1: like tobacco road anyway. I remember the two of us
Speaker 1: being so curious about each other's bodies and not knowing
Speaker 1: what the hell to do. We would go into the
Speaker 1: woods and get naked together. It felt good, and for
Speaker 1: some reason I wanted to put crushed leaves into her.
Speaker 1: Don't know why, but I remember that. I don't remember
Speaker 1: the first time I had intercourse, believe it or not. Now,
Speaker 1: what if you're counting leaf stuff. If we're counting leave.
Speaker 2: Stuff, then cunning leaves stuff. I guess first grade it's
Speaker 2: one of those things.
Speaker 1: Look, I actually can definitely say I have had friends stop.
Speaker 2: To me about or stuff like a scarecrow.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's uncommon for little kids to like
Speaker 1: play around with other little kids sometimes, and that's sometimes
Speaker 1: like that. But sure, talking about it in this way
Speaker 1: is nuts. That this I feel confident that's saying.
Speaker 3: If one of them says, I want to stuff leafs
Speaker 3: inside you, now you've got a problem. Now this is
Speaker 3: outside Yeah, the acceptable level of like discovery and weirdness
Speaker 3: that all humans go through.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is and I think again, the weirdest
Speaker 1: part is talking about it in the context of losing
Speaker 1: your virginity to Playboy, because honestly, both of those stories
Speaker 1: one is like you're with your step brother and they
Speaker 1: like play with your penis for some reason, and one
Speaker 1: is you're playing with another little kid and like stuff
Speaker 1: like leaves in their underwear. Neither of those is sex.
Speaker 1: I don't think, like neither of those is consensual sex.
Speaker 1: Neither of those is even intercourse. Like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know why you bring that up at all
Speaker 1: in this context.
Speaker 4: I guess like Vince's weird brain, he was just like,
Speaker 4: there's there's okay. It's like in his weird brain he
Speaker 4: might have thought like, oh, well, I mean that the
Speaker 4: first time that I, you know, went, my penis flicked around.
Speaker 4: But they also like there's it reminds me of like
Speaker 4: the kind of weird boasting kids do when they're just
Speaker 4: hitting puber. It's like, oh, yeah I had like I
Speaker 4: had sex in second grade or yeah, it's all bullshit.
Speaker 4: So it's like there's a weird component of that to
Speaker 4: it as well, like he's trying to seem cool by
Speaker 4: saying he had sex as young as possible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, these are like, these are both like stories. I
Speaker 1: don't know, if you were a major figure and decided
Speaker 1: to write your autobiography, you might if it was a
Speaker 1: particularly honest autobiography, tell a story like that when talking
Speaker 1: about your early childhood, like saying it in like I
Speaker 1: don't know, a fucking Playboy interview as sort of this
Speaker 1: is how I lost my virginity? Is is bizarre?
Speaker 3: Explain away like a leaf fetish or some like really
Speaker 3: strange thing. You got caught doing it? You're like, well.
Speaker 2: You got caught fucking a tree. Yeah, here's why. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they caught me naked in a compost bin. But let
Speaker 2: me explain why my stepdad he got sentence to two
Speaker 2: years on the room. He sucked a lot of trees.
Speaker 4: Oh wait, I didn't mean that paper is basically trees.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's fair to the other things.
Speaker 4: He's doing this interview to promote his weird arena football.
Speaker 2: To promote the XFL.
Speaker 1: He talks about stuffing leaves and another child's underwear.
Speaker 3: The XFL really was like this violent, insecure, like man's
Speaker 3: man version of football. And here he is telling these
Speaker 3: these fucking intimate like dark sexual.
Speaker 1: Stories, prittly intimate stories, these stories that like, these are
Speaker 1: the kinds of experiences that you do your best to
Speaker 1: like not I don't know, it seems these are these
Speaker 1: are the kind of experiences and like if you have,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess there's I mean, just statistically some of
Speaker 1: the people listening will have similar experiences. Nothing sure wrong
Speaker 1: with this, but like, these are the kind of things
Speaker 1: you would you know, a close friend when you're know
Speaker 1: bearing your soul some night, you know, or somebody that
Speaker 1: you're in a romantic relationship with when you've you've built
Speaker 1: up a degree of trust, right, Playboy Magazine, like fucking
Speaker 1: Gitmo couldn't get me out of this out anything for
Speaker 1: a public forum.
Speaker 4: This story is probably on the same page as a
Speaker 4: grotesquely sexual cartoon or in ad.
Speaker 2: For camel cigarettes. Right, this is funny.
Speaker 4: It's to a picture of Joe Cammell in a fucking
Speaker 4: leather jacket.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's something the fuck else is for what
Speaker 1: it is for? Goddamn sure it is something the fuck else.
Speaker 1: And you know what else is something else? Guys, these
Speaker 1: product and services, these products and services.
Speaker 2: You beat me to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, there's nothing adds love more than being featured
Speaker 1: right after talking about Vince McMahon's bizarre admissions of sexual
Speaker 1: abuse in Playboy magazine. So here buy some shit. Ah,
Speaker 1: we're back boy. That's going to make life easier for
Speaker 1: the ad sales team. So, as a rule, when Vince
Speaker 1: talks about his childhood, his early memori's focus around his stepfather, Leo.
Speaker 1: Even his only young memory of his biological father involves
Speaker 1: Leo Vincent Senior when Vince was a little kid, only
Speaker 1: visited him once, and Vince Junior's memory of the event
Speaker 1: was just that he was scared of Leo. Right, He
Speaker 1: was scared of how to react in front of his
Speaker 1: biological father because he was worried about how Leo would
Speaker 1: react again if Leo's an abusive guy makes total sense.
Speaker 1: Outside of this moment, Vince was completely separate from his
Speaker 1: his biological father and from the McMahon family until the
Speaker 1: age of twelve. One of his childhood friends recalls that
Speaker 1: he and his brother did not even know how to
Speaker 1: pronounce the name McMahon properly. Now, they didn't have a
Speaker 1: lot of money when they were, you know.
Speaker 2: Living the McMahon.
Speaker 1: I think he did, like I think it was mcm
Speaker 1: or something like that is how he said it. Yeah, Now,
Speaker 1: they didn't have a lot of money, you know, in
Speaker 1: the time when he was living as Vinnie Lupton and
Speaker 1: Vince and his family kind of lived in a bad
Speaker 1: part of town. There were hints of normalcy in their life, though.
Speaker 1: Vicky volunteered with the local boy Scout troupe that Vince
Speaker 1: was in and acted in community theater productions. Unfortunately, one
Speaker 1: of these was a nineteen fifty three production of On
Speaker 1: Stage America, described by the local paper as a minstrel
Speaker 1: show with a modern patriotic twist. Vince Junior's mother was
Speaker 1: in the Picaninny chorus. Josie Riiseman writes that this was
Speaker 1: presumably in blackface, and I suspect she is correct there.
Speaker 3: Yeah to the listeners, everyone who knows what that word
Speaker 3: means is dead.
Speaker 2: But that's a really racist Yeah, don't use it.
Speaker 4: There's no other assumption you can make based on that word.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, if you see that word written somewhere, it's like,
Speaker 1: if you see that word written somewhere, whoever wrote it
Speaker 1: all most certainly has a Confederate flag in their home.
Speaker 4: It is referencing the most racist thing you've ever seen
Speaker 4: if you see it somewhere.
Speaker 2: Bad stuff.
Speaker 1: So that said, really common stuff for the day, Right,
Speaker 1: this is not like fringe shit in North Carolina in
Speaker 1: the period of time in which she's acting in this,
Speaker 1: But doesn't make it right. I'm just you know, trying
Speaker 1: to add context. He grows up in a pretty racist
Speaker 1: place in time. Vincent's elementary school was segregated further back
Speaker 1: up that point, and his sixth grade class had just
Speaker 1: thirty two students. In an interview with Playboy, he describes
Speaker 1: himself and his friends as the roughest kids in town,
Speaker 1: constantly getting into fights and scrapes. He claims that he
Speaker 1: was totally unruly, that he refused to go to school
Speaker 1: and broke the law constantly without ever getting caught.
Speaker 2: That's what they called me.
Speaker 1: He's talking about himself when he's like ten. In one interview,
Speaker 1: In one interview, he let out a potentially revealing statement
Speaker 1: saying that he felt as a kid that he wasn't
Speaker 1: as bright as the other kids, and so he defaulted
Speaker 1: to physicality as a result. That sounds like it might
Speaker 1: be like an honest admission of insecurity. But there's reason
Speaker 1: to doubt all of this, Riiseman notes quote. However, the
Speaker 1: picture that emerges from those who knew him is surprisingly
Speaker 1: of a kind kid who made friends with ease. He was,
Speaker 1: from what I can remember, fairly popular, and he was
Speaker 1: liked by the girls as well as the boys. Recalls
Speaker 1: classmate Shelle Davis, who became the boy's best friend in town.
Speaker 1: Most everyone knew him liked him, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Vinnie was not a loud or abrasive child. Rod's best
Speaker 1: friend from the period, James Fletcher says that despite encountering
Speaker 1: Vinnie at some length, the younger kid didn't make a
Speaker 1: big impression. That said, as Davis puts at, Vinnie was
Speaker 1: more extroverted than introverted, not a show off, but very sociable,
Speaker 1: very friendly, very outgoing to his peers. So again, he
Speaker 1: kind of as a preteen and as a teen he
Speaker 1: kind of portrays himself as this like violent, unhinged badass.
Speaker 1: But everyone knew him was like he was really nice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: got along with everybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. It's every stage of his life that he's.
Speaker 4: Telling a story about to Playboy sounds at least partially
Speaker 4: made up.
Speaker 2: Uh huh, and it is badass. Maybe he might.
Speaker 3: These people grew up so scared of little Vinnie that
Speaker 3: they're like, Dude, if Playboy interviews me, I'm gonna tell
Speaker 3: him that he was there.
Speaker 2: A fucking ten year old in town. That'll cut your
Speaker 2: goddamn neck. It was like, if.
Speaker 3: Thirty years from now someone comes up and starts asking
Speaker 3: you questions about my personality at this point in time,
Speaker 3: you better tell him I was sweet.
Speaker 4: Little Vinny's out here smashing people's knuckles with a hammer.
Speaker 1: So when he's around twelve, his stepdad moves Vincent Senior,
Speaker 1: Vinnie Lupton, and the family to Craven County. Now, by
Speaker 1: this point, Vincent Senior's business had expanded to control much
Speaker 1: of the wrestling in the Northeastern United States. He was
Speaker 1: one of the biggest promoters in the country, regularly booking
Speaker 1: sold out events in Madison Square Garden. Vincent Junior had
Speaker 1: no idea of any of this until Vincent Senior's new wife, Juanita,
Speaker 1: pushed him to reconnect with his first biological children. So
Speaker 1: basically his I don't know what technically she would be
Speaker 1: to him. I guess technically nothing, but like his biological
Speaker 1: dad's wife, it's you know, when his kids are like
Speaker 1: twelve and thirteen years his first biological kids are twelve
Speaker 1: and thirteen, is like, hey, you should like talk to them,
Speaker 1: like you should have some sort of relationship with you,
Speaker 1: which is a very nice gesture, to be honest, Like,
Speaker 1: that's very sweet of her. So the two finally meet
Speaker 1: when Vincent is twelve years old. He later told New
Speaker 1: York Magazine, I saw my dad, and I just immediately
Speaker 1: fell in love with him. He saw his father as
Speaker 1: big and handsome, and while he says they knew that
Speaker 1: making up for lost time wasn't possible, both of them
Speaker 1: put a lot of effort into developing a belated relationship together,
Speaker 1: and the easiest thing for them to bond over was wrestling. Quote,
Speaker 1: he would take me to shows that the old U
Speaker 1: Line Arena in Washington, and I remember the crowd response
Speaker 1: in those larger than life individuals. The passion was just
Speaker 1: so strong. I just knew that I wanted to do
Speaker 1: that as soon as I saw it.
Speaker 2: This is the.
Speaker 1: Stuff that Vincent has been most consistent about over his childhood,
Speaker 1: that he just kind of is immediately enthralled by his father,
Speaker 1: is kind of obsessed with him. And there's also people
Speaker 1: who are not Vince kind of say this, and Vincent
Speaker 1: Senior's family, like his kids are like, you know, we
Speaker 1: were friendly to him. We thought it was good that
Speaker 1: dad was getting a relationship with him. He was a
Speaker 1: little odd and kind of everyone says that about Vince
Speaker 1: around his bio dad, that he's he's kind of peculiar.
Speaker 1: And for the record, Vince Senior is going to find
Speaker 1: his son's obsession with him and with wrestling to be
Speaker 1: a little strange and not strange and like it's weird
Speaker 1: that a kid would want to connect with his bio dad,
Speaker 1: but he is super focused on wrestling in particular.
Speaker 2: Imagine being Vinnie at this time. Though it is weird,
Speaker 2: like that's a lot for a kid to deal with.
Speaker 3: Got a history of abandoning your families, and then here
Speaker 3: comes your kid's biological dad and he's like a billionaire
Speaker 3: with his own wrestling company. You're like, that's that rage
Speaker 3: is going to get internalized, that jealousy. That couldn't have
Speaker 3: been good first yeah, first, a weird relationship.
Speaker 1: So Vincent immediately wanted to be a wrestler and his
Speaker 1: his bio dad, Vincent Senior tries to put to quash
Speaker 1: this right like, he's very from the beginning, like, no, man,
Speaker 1: you do not want to be a wrestler. He initially tried.
Speaker 1: He warns him that like wrestling has wild ups and downs,
Speaker 1: the market's not reliable. You know, sometimes I'm doing well,
Speaker 1: but sometimes I'm barely floating by. You would do a
Speaker 1: lot better. You'll be a lot happier if you just
Speaker 1: find a safe government job that gives you a pension.
Speaker 1: But Vince listened to that about as well as you
Speaker 1: would expect a child being told that delivering male is
Speaker 1: a better future than wearing spandex and punching dudes dressed
Speaker 1: as shakes would listen. Right, He's he's like, having a
Speaker 1: pensions the smart thing, and he's like, but I want
Speaker 1: to fight people for a living.
Speaker 2: You make that choice ten out of ten times.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely not surprising as a kid that he is
Speaker 1: so focused on paper, I want to drop kick someone.
Speaker 1: So in the summer of nineteen fifty nine, when Vince
Speaker 1: was fourteen, he met the man who would become his
Speaker 1: childhood hero, a wrestler named doctor Jerry Graham. Vince recalled
Speaker 1: he had peroxided hair and wore her red riverboat gambler
Speaker 1: type shirt. He had a nineteen fifty nine blood red
Speaker 1: Cadillac convertible Washington, DC. That summer of fifty nine, I'd
Speaker 1: sneak out of my dad's office and go riding around
Speaker 1: town with a good doctor and oh my god, he
Speaker 1: would light cigars with one hundred dollars bills, run red lights,
Speaker 1: curse anybody he wanted to curse. And I just thought
Speaker 1: he was the coolest guy. He was a wild man.
Speaker 1: He would do anything he wanted to do. Robert, this
Speaker 1: guy is cool. This guy is in fact kind of cool.
Speaker 1: This guy's sophie, would you have a a picture of
Speaker 1: this guy? But yeah, he is doctor doctor Graham. Pretty
Speaker 1: cool guy. Now, the story about him lighting one hundred
Speaker 1: dollars bills on fire is one you'll find in every
Speaker 1: recollection Vince has of his childhood. You know, as with
Speaker 1: everything Vince says, it may or may not be true,
Speaker 1: given things that we know for certain about doctor Cram,
Speaker 1: though I'm gonna say that's probably true.
Speaker 3: That's kind of a bargain to get like everyone who
Speaker 3: meets you to tell that story, like your whole life.
Speaker 3: It's so one hundred dollars to get everyone to think, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's that's a deal. I think people should start doing it.
Speaker 1: So I think it's worth noting that Jerry Graham was
Speaker 1: an incredible dude in his own right.
Speaker 2: During World War Two.
Speaker 1: He light about his age to enlist in the eighty
Speaker 1: second Airborne and fight Nazis as a paratrooper when he's
Speaker 1: like fifteen years old something like that, maybe sixty.
Speaker 2: Like he's he is too young to be doing that,
Speaker 2: but he does it.
Speaker 1: Blood red catillect. If you know much about the eighty
Speaker 1: second airbor looking the eighty second Airborne like a unit
Speaker 1: is yeah, he looks.
Speaker 2: Cool as hell, just astounding.
Speaker 1: And doctor Jerry Graham exits World War Two basically a
Speaker 1: pile of muscles and trauma. So much mass, there's so
Speaker 1: much he is a huge dude. He has He has
Speaker 1: the body type of like a fucking beach ball made
Speaker 1: of steel, don't I don't know how else to describe it.
Speaker 1: Very you wouldn't want to get into a fight with
Speaker 1: this fella, Like, you're not not going to I don't
Speaker 1: even know, yeah exactly, Like he's just stout. Yeah, his
Speaker 1: body type is a fucking Hesco barricade. Like. So he
Speaker 1: leaves the war traumatized as all hell. And a lot
Speaker 1: of the behavior Vins witnessed was not just a result
Speaker 1: of him being a cool dude, but a result of
Speaker 1: chronic alcoholism, which was itself self medication for lifelong depression. Now,
Speaker 1: the highlight, by his own admission, of doctor Graham's career
Speaker 1: occurred two years before he met Vince in nineteen fifty seven,
Speaker 1: when he was scheduled for a big exhibition match in
Speaker 1: Madison Square Garden. And this is maybe the greatest riot
Speaker 1: in pro wrestling history. Have you guys heard this story,
Speaker 1: the fifty seven riot at Madison Square Garden?
Speaker 2: No big? Oh man, Oh you're gonna love this one. Details.
Speaker 1: So doctor Graham is a heel, right, I mean, look
Speaker 1: at that guy. That's a fucking heel. Yeah, he's cool,
Speaker 1: because he's fucking cool as hell. Now, actually we are
Speaker 1: about to talk about some racism, but you know whatever.
Speaker 1: So Graham is paired up in a double match alongside
Speaker 1: his fellow heel Dick the Bruiser, and against some Canadian
Speaker 1: guy and his partner, who is a Puitter Rican wrestler
Speaker 1: named Roca. The garden is packed with almost thirteen thousand fans.
Speaker 1: Thousands more are turned away at the door. The crowd
Speaker 1: gets amped up, and you have to assume they're also
Speaker 1: drunker than any group of people today could possibly get.
Speaker 1: In an interview that he gave later in life, doctor
Speaker 1: Graham said this about how the night went from a
Speaker 1: normal wrestling match to something decidedly less k fabe. He
Speaker 1: claimed he could smell the riot coming.
Speaker 2: Quote.
Speaker 1: I knew the timing was right. The Puerto Rican people
Speaker 1: had never seen blood on Roca, and I hit him
Speaker 1: in the eye, split his eye, and they went insane.
Speaker 1: So this was not something that they had planned before him,
Speaker 1: like busting that guy's eye open was not planned. And
Speaker 1: this makes Roca very angry, understandably, and they start fighting
Speaker 1: for real and actually beating the shit out of each
Speaker 1: other for real now. The match had been meant to
Speaker 1: end in two straight falls, but Graham charged Roca when
Speaker 1: he wasn't supposed to because Roka had been hitting him,
Speaker 1: and Roka did that because he'd split his eye. Anyway,
Speaker 1: the fight between them can keeps going on like it
Speaker 1: doesn't end when it's supposed to, and there's a curfew
Speaker 1: on wrestling matches in New York at this point at
Speaker 1: eleven pm. But eleven PM rolls around and these guys
Speaker 1: are still beating the absolute shit out of each other,
Speaker 1: So the ref calls the game for the baby faces
Speaker 1: for Roca and his partner, but this just makes the
Speaker 1: crowd angrier. Graham and the Bruiser continue beating the piss
Speaker 1: out of Roka, even though the match is well past
Speaker 1: where it was supposed to have ended by this point.
Speaker 1: In a write up for Life Magazine by Herbert Bream,
Speaker 1: who was there, noted quote as the crowd roared, Roca
Speaker 1: seized Graham and began bashing his head against the ring post.
Speaker 1: This also produced real blood. Garden police tried to come
Speaker 1: to Graham's aid, but they could not cope with the mastodons.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna show you a fucking picture of this
Speaker 1: because it's one of the most insane examples of in
Speaker 1: ring violence I've ever seen. This is him, This is
Speaker 1: doctor Jerry Graham getting his head smashed in against the
Speaker 1: steel like pillar of the fucking ring.
Speaker 2: Sophie fantasm Man.
Speaker 3: He is bleeding a lot so, but these guys are
Speaker 3: clearly in on it, like he's letting him bash his
Speaker 3: headed in the ring.
Speaker 1: Like I think there's a mix of that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a little hard to tell. There's definitely
Speaker 1: points at which like, this is not how they planned
Speaker 1: it initially too, so it is like I was saying
Speaker 1: the idea that, like, you.
Speaker 3: Know, when he busted his eye open, he lost his temper,
Speaker 3: but then you know, they they're still you know, in
Speaker 3: a wrestling rose.
Speaker 1: They're Yeah, it's hard to see. Yeah, it's like the
Speaker 1: lines here are blurry, right.
Speaker 2: He's got from the inside of the turnbuckle.
Speaker 3: He's got his head against the ring and he's pushing
Speaker 3: it and his hands are like not guarding his face
Speaker 3: or not trying to get away. It's very much like
Speaker 3: you'd expect a wrestling spot to go.
Speaker 1: But but also that next picture is he is bleeding quite.
Speaker 2: A lot leaking out in front of his face. In
Speaker 2: the next picture.
Speaker 1: It's worth relating what Graham later said about that moment.
Speaker 1: Of course, he retaliated, ran my head into the post,
Speaker 1: and blood was flowing like water. An old time jubilee
Speaker 1: right there in Madison Square Garden. So after Graham gets
Speaker 1: his face bashed in Breams, coverage for Life magazine continues quote.
Speaker 1: The crowd had been lively throwing paper cups into the ring,
Speaker 1: but not abnormally demonstrative. Now, stimulated by what was probably
Speaker 1: the first honest competition they had ever seen, some hundred
Speaker 1: surged forth towards the ring. So Roka keeps beating Graham
Speaker 1: while fans broke down chairs and gathered bottles, hucking some
Speaker 1: at the wrestlers and using others to charge the wrestlers
Speaker 1: and attack unfortunately for them. And this is mostly like
Speaker 1: Rocca's fans who are like charging into the ring to
Speaker 1: attack Graham and his partner Dick the Bruiser. Now unfortunately
Speaker 1: for these random wrestling fans who are charging with pieces
Speaker 1: of chairs and bottles. Dick the Bruiser, before being a
Speaker 1: pro wrestler, had been a ligneman for the Green Bay Packers, Now,
Speaker 1: I am sure somewhere there exists a kind of dude
Speaker 1: you want to fight less than a linebacker turned pro wrestler,
Speaker 1: But I don't know what that kind of dude might be.
Speaker 1: Doctor Graham describes what came next. My partner, Dick the Bruiser,
Speaker 1: was picking up and throwing Puerto Ricans outside the ring
Speaker 1: like a farmer picking potatoes. Then New York's finest Antam
Speaker 1: Moon events have brought in the cavalry to close the
Speaker 1: fans down, And that Dolly was the biggest thing I
Speaker 1: ever experienced in my career. I was found three thousand
Speaker 1: dollars for inciting a riot, but it was the first
Speaker 1: time they ever saw blood on the Latin Roca.
Speaker 2: So I don't remember that thing to say he was
Speaker 2: throwing Print Ricans like potatoes. What a wild thing to say.
Speaker 3: I love how credulous he was too, like there when
Speaker 3: in the first real brawl, this was no longer a that.
Speaker 2: Is such a fifties moment. Ah, we're back.
Speaker 1: So the riot of fifty seven at Madison Square Garden
Speaker 1: only ended because Rocca addressed his fans in Spanish and
Speaker 1: begged them to stop. At the end of it, two
Speaker 1: officers were injured, three hundreds were destroyed, and doctor Jerry
Speaker 1: Graham's five hundred dollars sequined purple robe was stolen, which is.
Speaker 2: The real tragedy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, plus all those chairs, Now three hundred people will
Speaker 4: go seatless.
Speaker 2: Yeah that one.
Speaker 3: All those Puerto Ricans he threw like like a filthy
Speaker 3: irishman picking potatoes.
Speaker 1: I want a photoshop of like the crocodile hunter at
Speaker 1: the Twin Towers and doctor Jerry Graham's sequined purple robe.
Speaker 1: That just says, never forget. That's what we're fighting, that's
Speaker 1: what we're fighting for.
Speaker 2: I'm wearing one right now. So the riot caused.
Speaker 1: Such shock among the great and good of Manhattan that
Speaker 1: there were calls to ban wrestling in the entire state. Instead,
Speaker 1: they just decided to ban kids under fourteen from attending
Speaker 1: live shows, which held for twenty years. I only kids
Speaker 1: under fourteen were particularly a.
Speaker 2: Part of this.
Speaker 1: But were they hammered one set in the chairs. I
Speaker 1: don't think they were. The hammered people charging that linebacker.
Speaker 2: Throwing them should fucking kids across the room.
Speaker 1: So anyway, Dick Bruiser, the guy who described what Dick
Speaker 1: the Bruiser is doing as hucking Puerto Rican's like a
Speaker 1: farmer throwing potatoes was the primary childhood role model for
Speaker 1: teenage Vince McMahon outside of his biological dad. Now, for
Speaker 1: his part, Vince Senior was concerned about this. Right. He
Speaker 1: knows wrestlers, he knows doctor Graham, and he's like, boy,
Speaker 1: my son probably shouldn't be hanging out with this guy.
Speaker 1: So he attempted to restrict Vince Junior from hanging out
Speaker 1: with doctor Graham. So Vince Junior developed a habit of
Speaker 1: sneaking out whenever he was in town. You're sill to
Speaker 1: do it, don't do this. So whenever Vince Junior's like
Speaker 1: in DC to hang with his bio dad, he would
Speaker 1: sneak out at night so he could party with a drunk,
Speaker 1: traumatized racist giant, which probably he explains a lot. Vince
Speaker 1: told New York Magazine that same summer, at a place
Speaker 1: outside of Atlantic City, while my dad was away, I
Speaker 1: talked my steps mom into peroxiding my hair, and of
Speaker 1: course when my dad got back, he blew a stack.
Speaker 1: That same summer, doctor Jerry Graham gave me my first
Speaker 1: set of weights called HealthWays. I had the red shirt,
Speaker 1: red pants, I also bought the red shoes. I think
Speaker 1: my dad was probably a little afraid. Now, among other things,
Speaker 1: Vince Defrey is my rib be dristed in red Now?
Speaker 1: Among other things, Vince idolized Jerry's toughness and his willingness
Speaker 1: to get into fistfights at literally no provocation. His own
Speaker 1: father is not like Vince McMahon. And this we'll talk
Speaker 1: about this later, because he does stuff in the ring
Speaker 1: quite a bit. He's a legitimately jacked dude. Like he's
Speaker 1: very muscular, and this is the ca I mean now
Speaker 1: he's like ninety, but for most of his career he's
Speaker 1: like a pretty shredded fellow. His dad, Vince Senior, is
Speaker 1: not a particularly muscular guy. He's not an athlete. He
Speaker 1: doesn't look like an athlete, which is nothing to get.
Speaker 1: He's just like, he's very different from how Vince is
Speaker 1: going to wind up looking. He's a hard nosed businessman,
Speaker 1: but no one's going to particularly fear Vince Senior for
Speaker 1: his ability to like beat people up. Vince Junior seems
Speaker 1: to have desired to set himself apart from his biological
Speaker 1: dad by developing the physical trappings.
Speaker 2: Of being a badass.
Speaker 1: That is, big muscles, but since doing that is hard,
Speaker 1: he also just opted to lie about having been a
Speaker 1: badass as a kid to interviewers. Years later, when talking
Speaker 1: about his teenaged years, he told Playboy quote Havelock, where
Speaker 1: he lived, is right outside the Marine base at Cherry Point.
Speaker 1: There was a place called the jet Drive in real
Speaker 1: creative of the jet. Because of all the military jets
Speaker 1: at the base on Friday and Saturday nights, it was
Speaker 1: time to get it on with the Marines. It was
Speaker 1: a challenge. Most of them were in great condition, but
Speaker 1: they didn't know how to fight. I'm not saying there
Speaker 1: were easy pickings. They got their testosterone going and they
Speaker 1: were all liquored up. Some of them are real tough,
Speaker 1: but me and my guys were street fighters.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, the I liked.
Speaker 4: I like that he took the time to pause this
Speaker 4: story that absolutely totally happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to like dunk on the tribe in.
Speaker 3: Theaters name, I used to go to a marine funded
Speaker 3: kumite every weekend, but like I have some notes on
Speaker 3: the name.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also funny that he's like, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: you know what everyone knows about marines that they don't
Speaker 1: know how to fight.
Speaker 2: Right, that's what they're famous for. The Marines. Oh my god.
Speaker 3: When my brother came back from basic training, he spent
Speaker 3: probably the better part of a year just pointing at
Speaker 3: objects near people and being like I could kill you
Speaker 3: with that ding. Yeah, it's just think they put it
Speaker 3: in their head like fighting is the only thing in
Speaker 3: your entire world and you need to kill everybody. And
Speaker 3: I might say he's a great fighter, like you can
Speaker 3: only teach someone so much in basic training, but I guarantee.
Speaker 1: He's a better Vince mcmixt Yeah, then, sixteen year old
Speaker 1: Vince McMahon. Vince continues his absolutely not true claims. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe you've been through I'm sorry, I'm I mean maybe
Speaker 1: you've been through basic training and you know how to
Speaker 1: operate a bayonet. That's different from sticky in somebody's eye
Speaker 1: or sitting a guy in the throat, which comes naturally
Speaker 1: to a street fighter.
Speaker 2: And they can't both.
Speaker 3: They do not teach soldiers to be ruthless fighters. They
Speaker 3: teach him to follow the Queensbury rules when they're out
Speaker 3: there fighting hits.
Speaker 1: Vince McMahon has never stuck his finger in somebody's eye, Like,
Speaker 1: I just don't believe it, and they can't believe you're
Speaker 1: not fighting fair. Sometimes suddenly they can't breathe in or
Speaker 1: see and they realize, oh my god, am I in
Speaker 1: for an ass kicking playboys?
Speaker 2: He's such a liar.
Speaker 1: Playboy asks ever come close to killing one of them? McMahon,
Speaker 1: I would like to think, not very close. That's not
Speaker 1: what I wanted to do. You want to incapacitate the guy.
Speaker 1: Once you get someone down, you don't want him getting
Speaker 1: back up. You don't want him moving, so you make
Speaker 1: sure he doesn't. It's not pretty, but it was challenging
Speaker 1: and fun.
Speaker 2: Can we corroborate this? Can we google?
Speaker 3: Hi?
Speaker 2: I was a marine and I got my ass kicked.
Speaker 4: By Vince mc when I was If a towny beat
Speaker 4: the shit out of a bunch of Air Force Marine
Speaker 4: dudes a drive in movie theater, that'll be in the newspaper.
Speaker 2: I will believe.
Speaker 1: And again, it's so easy to make a believable version
Speaker 1: of the sly say they were air force guys. Nobody's
Speaker 1: in a question that you were able to beat up
Speaker 1: air Force dudes.
Speaker 2: I could take yeah, easy.
Speaker 1: So look, uh, Thankfully we do have a good journalist
Speaker 1: who like looked into his life Josie Riseman, author of
Speaker 1: the again excellent book Ring Master, and her research pretty comprehensive. Here.
Speaker 1: It is true that locals of Half a Lock often
Speaker 1: taunted and sometimes fought marines, which is a time honored
Speaker 1: tradition of people who are drunk in towns near military bases,
Speaker 1: right soldiers get into all sorts of fights. But Josie's
Speaker 1: investigation turned churned up numerous claims by locals that Vince
Speaker 1: McMahon was never a part of any of this.
Speaker 2: This is yeah.
Speaker 1: Doug Franks, who went to High School of Events, admitted
Speaker 1: to getting into fights with marines on a k but
Speaker 1: said Vince was simply too young to participate. From Ringmaster,
Speaker 1: Vince was not a part of it. But he grouped
Speaker 1: up with a bunch of wannabes and we just considered
Speaker 1: him a little punk at the time. That's the best
Speaker 1: way I know to describe him. I asked if Vince
Speaker 1: in his wannabe's ever gotten any fight or if they
Speaker 1: just hung around. They were hanging around in their own group,
Speaker 1: trying to be tough guys. Frank's recalls, the only time
Speaker 1: I knew we ever got into anything was when he
Speaker 1: broke his hand or his wrist in a fight with
Speaker 1: a boy named Harvey Elms. Neither Frank's nor mcles recalls
Speaker 1: what the fight was over, just that it was a
Speaker 1: very isolated incident. Vinny walked around with a cast on
Speaker 1: his hand and his wrist for three or four months.
Speaker 1: Frank said it was his claim to fame.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he knew he was going to get his
Speaker 3: ass kicked when he couldn't breathe, Like, I broke.
Speaker 2: My wrist on his neck, his throat, This is it
Speaker 2: for me?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so adult Vince would also claim decades later to
Speaker 1: have engaged in serious criminal activity as a teenager playboy.
Speaker 1: Did you ever steal McMahon automobiles? But I always got
Speaker 1: him back? I just borrowed him. Really, there were other
Speaker 1: thefts too. I ran a load of moonshine in Harlow,
Speaker 1: North Carolina, in in nineteen fifty.
Speaker 2: Two Ford V eight. That was a badass car at
Speaker 2: the time. Damn, this is all very cool. Yeah, absolutely
Speaker 2: definitely true.
Speaker 3: Which is over a bridge freezed and then I said
Speaker 3: Cole's Vincent man going to get out of this one.
Speaker 3: And then after the commercial break, I landed it. The
Speaker 3: fucking cops didn't rate in the fucking water. And anyways,
Speaker 3: I last sold the two mountains together and that's how
Speaker 3: we made the Mississippi River. Yeah, the cops had a
Speaker 3: nickname for me, called me Smoky. My partner was the bandit.
Speaker 3: That's what that movie is based on, except.
Speaker 2: In real laughter was more karate, more eyeball karate, hell
Speaker 2: of a lot more eyeball poking.
Speaker 1: So Vince says that the cops eventually caught up to
Speaker 1: him for all his bootlegging, and that's why he was
Speaker 1: forced to attend the military school. Now, the bootlegging and
Speaker 1: I have a cousin who got in trouble for stealing
Speaker 1: cars and was made to attend the military school. Stuff
Speaker 1: like this still happens, at least, I mean it happened
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. Off it still happens today. But for Vince,
Speaker 1: I don't believe this is true. Vince's claim is that
Speaker 1: the cops gave him a choice between like military school
Speaker 1: in jail, and since his mom was broke, Vincent Senior
Speaker 1: paid for him to go to military school. This is
Speaker 1: again a lie. In other interviews that he gave earlier,
Speaker 1: his story is a lot more realistic. He claims that
Speaker 1: his school had to integrate while he was in tenth grade.
Speaker 1: This caused tumult and, perhaps due in part to being racist,
Speaker 1: Vince no longer liked it at his school once it
Speaker 1: was integrated. His grades in behavior were bad enough that
Speaker 1: the administration decided to kick him out, so military school
Speaker 1: was one of his only options. This wound up being
Speaker 1: what ultimately made him. He later recalled, I had no reputation,
Speaker 1: so it was a new beginning, a great chance to
Speaker 1: start over and create a new reputation. And so when
Speaker 1: Fishburne Military School in Waynesboro, Virginia started its nineteen sixty
Speaker 1: two school year, a new student entered its eleventh grade class.
Speaker 1: The previous year, Vince had been known as Vinnie looked
Speaker 1: at but at fishburn for the very first time, he
Speaker 1: started to go by a new name, Vince McMahon.
Speaker 2: So this is a tough guy. Laser duck. Yeah, has
Speaker 2: so many better names than Vince McMahon. You could have
Speaker 2: been Dick the Bruiser.
Speaker 1: Come on.
Speaker 2: Now, that is his name is Nate had lots of sex. Yeah.
Speaker 1: They call me the eye gounger for short. Though Marine
Speaker 1: Bain is my other nickname.
Speaker 2: My nickname is doesn't put leaves in his cousin.
Speaker 1: So this would be a good This is a pretty
Speaker 1: good breaking point to end on this episode. But I
Speaker 1: feel like I'd be doing everyone at disservice if I
Speaker 1: did not provide a coda for the epic story of
Speaker 1: doctor Jerry Graham. And I'm gonna ask you guys to
Speaker 1: strap yourselves in for this one because we're about to
Speaker 1: go on quite a So despite being a wild man
Speaker 1: in public, Jerry Graham was also a mama's boy, and
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine, his mother was admitted to a
Speaker 1: hospital in Phoenix, Arizona. He called the doctor immediately as
Speaker 1: soon as she was admitted and told him he would
Speaker 1: hurt or kill the man if his mother died there. Now,
Speaker 1: this next book comes from a book by another wrestler, superstar,
Speaker 1: Billy Graham, and I'm going to quote from it now.
Speaker 1: When she died later that day, Graham showed up at
Speaker 1: the hospital with his twelve year old son wielding a
Speaker 1: hunting knife and a soft off shotgun. A tearful Graham
Speaker 1: shoved down a nurse and tossed a security guard across
Speaker 1: a hallway, hoisting his dead mother's body off a gurney.
Speaker 1: And draping it over his shoulder. Another security guard rushed forward,
Speaker 1: and Graham knocked him down and dragged him across the
Speaker 1: floor while still holding the corpse with his other arm.
Speaker 1: My brother, Vance, a police officer in Phoenix at the time,
Speaker 1: vividly recalled how squad cars were called to the hospital,
Speaker 1: surrounding it and blocking off the streets nearby. Eventually, copstormed
Speaker 1: the hospital and arrested Graham, who screamed incoherently and pounded
Speaker 1: on the patrol car doors as he was taken into custody.
Speaker 2: So that's a hell of a thing. Christ, that's the
Speaker 2: hell of a thing.
Speaker 1: What. Yeah, he stole his mom's body from the hospital
Speaker 1: like you're still in a hunting night, f n his
Speaker 1: twelve year old son, and again.
Speaker 3: Could have just gone her to that discredited veterinarian. They
Speaker 3: could have brought her back to life, not the same
Speaker 3: as she was, no.
Speaker 2: Something different.
Speaker 1: These are these are the kind of stories that make
Speaker 1: wrestling amazing because you don't get this from the NFL, Right,
Speaker 1: you don't get this for this is a wrestling story.
Speaker 2: Oh, you were right about that guy being cool.
Speaker 1: That is.
Speaker 2: Cool.
Speaker 3: We can only hope to have someone who will break
Speaker 3: into the hospital when we die and just our body
Speaker 3: into the jack us.
Speaker 4: Like fucking new Bigfoot trying to reclaim his wife or something.
Speaker 2: Growing security guards. Yes, yeah, crashing through this hospital. An
Speaker 2: amazing man, pure engine of KOs. I'm taking her hell myself.
Speaker 4: The cover.
Speaker 2: Now it was teeth it is.
Speaker 1: It is worth noting and sad to note that Graham
Speaker 1: was broke by this point, possibly as a result of
Speaker 1: burning all those hundred dollars bills he had sent the
Speaker 1: money some of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, he had sent his mom money for decades as
Speaker 1: a savings account, and when in the.
Speaker 2: That's what he needed the body.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, when when she died, she she had about a
Speaker 1: half a million dollars of his money, but unfortunately she
Speaker 1: gave all of it to the Baptist Church.
Speaker 2: Doctor.
Speaker 1: Jerry when he found out, spent the rest of his
Speaker 1: life with a vicious hatred of religion and died in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven of a stroke at age sixty eight,
Speaker 1: which is a lot longer than I expected Jerry Graham
Speaker 1: to live.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he beat the odds.
Speaker 4: He beat the odds, both for wrestlers and just general
Speaker 4: maniacs y, both.
Speaker 2: For wrestlers and people who steal a corpse from a
Speaker 2: hospital at shotgun point. Anyway, that's that's part two. I'm
Speaker 2: glad on a happy one. Yeah, it is a tail.
Speaker 1: What an amazing guy. Yeah, yeah, you know, some people aren't.
Speaker 1: You can't qualify them as good or bad. They're just incredible.
Speaker 1: And Jerry Graham is incredible.
Speaker 4: They're just they're just awe inspiring positive or negative connotation
Speaker 4: of it, just general awe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad we don't have more of him, but
Speaker 2: I'm really glad we have him. Yeah. It's like when
Speaker 2: you see t Rex's skeleton, like that was cool. I'm
Speaker 2: glad it's not still here.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, you make it through like a really
Speaker 1: insane thunderstorm in You're life. Well that was amazing, but
Speaker 1: I don't want to go through that again. I yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd like to avoid repeating this experience. Good stuff. This
Speaker 1: is the end of part too. You guys want to
Speaker 1: plug your pluggables here.
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, I'm doing the very last comedy website on
Speaker 3: the internet with mi Wow. Robert Brockway is sadly close
Speaker 3: to true.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. We started as a joke and we're like, no,
Speaker 2: this is true, true actually it's like the golden age
Speaker 2: of Internet jokes. We got text and pictures.
Speaker 3: Join our patreon at Patreon dot com Slash one nine
Speaker 3: hundred hot Dog.
Speaker 2: It's the best. We're very proud of it. You should be.
Speaker 2: It's very very fun and cool.
Speaker 1: Now, Tom, you also have some fun and cool things
Speaker 1: to plug.
Speaker 2: I have a thing to plug it anyway.
Speaker 4: Anyway, my god a podcast network Gameslan employee that I
Speaker 4: started with David Bell, our friend and former Crack coworker.
Speaker 4: You can check that out at patreon dot com slash
Speaker 4: Gamesley Unemployed and I'll so we have free episodes that
Speaker 4: you can get for free.
Speaker 2: So check hell yeah, check that out. Yeah yeah, hell yeah,
Speaker 2: Well check all that out. I have a novel. It's
Speaker 2: called After the Revolution.
Speaker 1: Type it into whatever website you buy books from, or
Speaker 1: you know, like doctor Jerry Graham, grab a twelve year
Speaker 1: old a shotgun and a hunting knife and find your
Speaker 1: way into the nearest Barnes and Noble, and you know,
Speaker 1: steal that book like your mom's court.
Speaker 2: I don't know where I'm going with this, Sophie. Do
Speaker 2: we have anything else? No, we're done, Okay, the episode's done.
Speaker 2: Perfect plugs Rice see behind The Bastards is a production
Speaker 2: of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media,
Speaker 2: visit our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out
Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 2: your podcasts.