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Speaker 1: Robert Evans here and we'll get to the Vince McMahon

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Speaker 1: episodes in a second. I wanted to let you all

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Speaker 1: know that for the fourth year in a row, we

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Speaker 1: are doing our fundraiser for the Portland Diaper Bank. Behind

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Speaker 1: the Bastards supporters have been helping to fund the Portland

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Speaker 1: Diaper Bank since twenty twenty and bought millions of diapers

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Speaker 1: for people who really need them. So if you go

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Speaker 1: to GoFundMe and type in bTB fundraiser for PDX Diaper Bank,

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Speaker 1: or just type in bTB fundraiser Diaper Bank, gofund me

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Speaker 1: into Google anything like that, you will find it. So

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Speaker 1: please go fund me bTB Fundraiser for Portland Diaper Bank.

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Speaker 1: Help us raise the money that these people need to

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Speaker 1: get diapers to folks who need them desperately. All right, everybody,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to Behind the Bastards. We're gearing up for

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Speaker 1: a really intense match today. In one corner of the

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Speaker 1: room we have Sean Baby, the famous guy on the Internet,

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Speaker 1: and on the under court of By God, it's Tom

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Speaker 1: Rayman with a steel chair O the.

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Speaker 2: Cream the crop rising a top the cream Crop. I

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Speaker 2: don't know why I had to pick one of you

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Speaker 2: to be the Steelers.

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Speaker 3: Bring this energy, but let me get into it, grabbed

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Speaker 3: the bolls of your enemies and used him to power

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Speaker 3: the thrusters that take the Warriors rocket to the top

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Speaker 3: of the Bastards.

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Speaker 2: Well, that was great.

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Speaker 1: This is behind the Bastards podcast that is inconsistently opened,

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Speaker 1: but I appreciate the edge that you both lent to this.

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Speaker 1: We Are We Are, We Are Coming in Hot and

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Speaker 1: Part two of the Vince McMahon series, the episode where

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Speaker 1: we finally talk about Vince McMahon. I hope you're all

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Speaker 1: now caught up all of our people who were not

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Speaker 1: coming in as wrestling fans, and I also hope that

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Speaker 1: our wrestling fans learn a thing or two in our

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Speaker 1: last episode before we diverted to talk about the von

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Speaker 1: eric family. I kind of left wrestling in the fifties

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Speaker 1: and sixties when the NWA and television had started to

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Speaker 1: turn it into a big business with seriously big money

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Speaker 1: for the first time. Now, today, pro wrestling salaries are

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Speaker 1: pretty pitiful. I think the average is like fifty two

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Speaker 1: thousand per year, which may sound good for you if

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Speaker 1: you're making like thirty five grand a year, but you

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Speaker 1: have to remember your job does not entail getting a

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Speaker 1: head injury every single night. So it's really you have

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Speaker 1: to cut some dollars off of that salary, which is

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Speaker 1: not wildly you know, crazy anyway.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, makes you this.

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Speaker 3: You live on a bus, you'd pay eight grand a

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Speaker 3: month for painkillers and steroids. You get hitting out of

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Speaker 3: the chair seven times a day, and any tiny mistake

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Speaker 3: will get you fired.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, making making an average American middle class salary for

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Speaker 1: collecting TBIs like kids in the nineties collected hogs.

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Speaker 4: And by the way, you have no retirement and retirement

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Speaker 4: absolutely whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, your retirement is dying at thirty seven.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's your pension. Is you're not gonna make it

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Speaker 1: to fifty. You're secure in the knowledge.

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Speaker 2: That you're not.

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Speaker 1: I mean, one of the saddest moments in kind of

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Speaker 1: pro wrestling history is is my hero Rowdy Roddy Piper,

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Speaker 1: when he was like sixty or sixty one, gave an

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Speaker 1: interview where he was like, look like, I'm out of cash,

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Speaker 1: you know, between the medical bills and everything, Like, I

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Speaker 1: don't have you know, any of the money left that

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Speaker 1: I made during all of those years that I was

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest stars in wrestling. You know, I'm Canadian,

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Speaker 1: I have a pension, but it doesn't kick in until

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Speaker 1: I'm sixty five, and I'm not going to make it

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Speaker 1: to sixty five. Like it's a bleak, bleak interview to watch. Yeah, Anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's the way things are now. Back in the day,

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Speaker 1: in this kind of period where we're having the first

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Speaker 1: real big height of wrestling and alevision kind of coming together,

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Speaker 1: wrestlers were paid reasonably well. Now they're destroying their bodies

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Speaker 1: probably at a faster rate. Right, we know less for

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Speaker 1: one thing, Like we didn't know what we know now

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Speaker 1: about steroids, so it was kind of impossible to do

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Speaker 1: them without destroying your heart very rapidly. Nowadays you can't, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, all these like celebrities who are on steroids

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Speaker 1: for movies and stuff aren't doing the same thing to

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Speaker 1: their bodies that like the Vaughan Erik kids work, Which

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Speaker 1: is not to say you should do steroids listeners, it's

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Speaker 1: just it's it's less toxic.

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Speaker 3: Now are going to steroids do them today? Not in

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Speaker 3: nineteen fifty eight.

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Speaker 1: Yes, don't do steroids and yeah, yeah, and also you.

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Speaker 2: Know, but Jose Canseco's book juice. He's got some tips

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Speaker 2: travel to the future. Think his book Travel to the

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Speaker 2: Future Your Steroids.

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Speaker 1: When you do enough steroids, you visit the future. But

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Speaker 1: in those days and kind of this first big wave

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Speaker 1: in the sixties, most pros were compensated pretty well. That

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Speaker 1: is to say that we're making what people at the

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Speaker 1: time would have considered pretty good money. This is one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why wrestling never unionized. We'll talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit later about another reason why it didn't unionize,

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Speaker 1: but kind of at the beginning of its rise to prominence,

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Speaker 1: a lot of guys would be like, well, we're making

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Speaker 1: great money, why do we need to unionize. The answer

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Speaker 1: to that is because Vince McMahon will inevitably come along

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Speaker 1: in your industry.

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Speaker 3: When you said the other reason they didn't unionize him

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Speaker 3: like he's talking about Ncentman.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, but that comes later, so he's on his way,

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Speaker 2: like fanos So.

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Speaker 1: Television caused wrestling to go mainstream, and TV execs during

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Speaker 1: the Golden Age of TV loved it because wrestling not

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Speaker 1: only did it get a lot of eyeballs, people are

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Speaker 1: always wanting to rotch wrestling. It's incredibly cheap to produce,

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Speaker 1: right you don't need a ton of blocking, you don't

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Speaker 1: need you know, special effects people. You don't need the

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Speaker 1: same kind of you know stars that you have to

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Speaker 1: have for a drama or something. You need a ring

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Speaker 1: in huge men who are willing to hurt themselves for money, right.

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Speaker 3: Its own like source of profit, like the ticket sales,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, yeah, and yeah sorry, I'm just saying you

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Speaker 3: can theoretically make money on a wrestling broadcast before even

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Speaker 3: gets on TV.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're getting to that. That is what people

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Speaker 1: eventually figure it out. And one of the first people

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Speaker 1: to realize kind of how profitable television could be for

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Speaker 1: wrestling was Vincent James McMahon, the father of our Vince.

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Speaker 1: He was born on July sixth, nineteen fourteen, to a

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Speaker 1: sports promoter named Jess McMahon in West Harlem. Now, over time,

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Speaker 1: Vince we'll call him Vince Senior for the purpose of

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Speaker 1: these episodes, and we'll call r Vince Vince Junior otherwise

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Speaker 1: it's going to get way too complicated. Over time, Vince

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Speaker 1: Senior's father and older brother got really into boxing promotion,

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Speaker 1: and you know, Vince Senior eventually follows his dad as

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Speaker 1: a promoter in nineteen thirty one, his dad noticed that

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Speaker 1: pro wrestling seemed to be a growing concern. People are

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Speaker 1: really getting into the kind of thing a lot more.

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Speaker 1: So he decided to promote a match, and he wound

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Speaker 1: up thinking it might be a good business. For the

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Speaker 1: next fifteen years, Vince McMahon Senior's father worked in both

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Speaker 1: boxing and wrestling, booking matches all throughout the Greater New

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Speaker 1: York area. He expanded his business to DC and sent

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Speaker 1: his son to run his office there. Vincent Senior was

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Speaker 1: on a swell path until you know, World War Two happened,

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Speaker 1: that whole shebang, and he had to go overseas for

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Speaker 1: a couple of years in the military. It was during

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Speaker 1: this period that he met up with a young woman

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Speaker 1: named Vicky Hanner. By nineteen forty three, Vicky was pregnant

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Speaker 1: with his child. This is going to be our Vince McMahon.

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Speaker 1: Vicky was married to another guy at the time, and

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Speaker 1: while they did file for divorce before she got pregnant,

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Speaker 1: or while he filed a divorce petition against her before

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Speaker 1: she got pregnant, she didn't like do anything with it,

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Speaker 1: and so the divorce didn't go through until nineteen forty seven,

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Speaker 1: she and Vincent Senior, while kind of in a big

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Speaker 1: amous relationship, moved to New York, where they had their

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Speaker 1: first son, Roderick James McMahon, who is Vince McMahon's older brother,

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Speaker 1: out of wedlock on October twelfth. The couple were married

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Speaker 1: in nineteen forty four, while Vicki is again still legally

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Speaker 1: married to her first husband, which means that Vincent might

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Speaker 1: technically qualify as a literal bastard, although the timing here

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Speaker 1: is a little fuzzy. In August of night. Huh, how

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Speaker 1: often does that happen? Very rarely, most of our bastards.

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Speaker 1: They're born within the bounds of holy matrimony.

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Speaker 2: Really, okay? Nice born into ethics is well? Exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, in August of nineteen forty five, Vincent Senior was

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Speaker 1: honorably discharged and a few days later their second son,

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Speaker 1: Vincent Kennedy McMahon. That's our Vince McMahon, was born in

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Speaker 1: North Carolina. I'm sorry the Vince McMahon's here, It is

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Speaker 1: a little complex at this point.

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Speaker 2: I don't buy it.

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Speaker 4: They found him in the forest.

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Speaker 2: They pulled him out of a bush. Yeah, yeah, he

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Speaker 2: was a He was in a pod. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's in a tuber with like, I don't know

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Speaker 1: the guy who owns the Knicks currently pull them both

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Speaker 1: up at the same time. So Vince McMahon are Vince McMahon.

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Speaker 1: Vince Junior was baptized in a local Catholic church, which

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Speaker 1: Riseman notes would be the only real influence that Vincent

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Speaker 1: Senior had on his son for more than a decade.

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Speaker 1: Right because his family's Catholic. He makes sure the kid

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Speaker 1: gets baptized in a Catholic church. And then he and

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Speaker 1: Vicky split the fuck up and we don't really know why,

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Speaker 1: but Vicky has a lot of husbands, so this is

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Speaker 1: like not a not an uncommon thing for her to

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Speaker 1: like get married to a guy and then for them

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Speaker 1: to split up for a while.

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Speaker 4: Given given what we know happens in the future, it's

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Speaker 4: we could blame this on Vince McMahon, Yes, and I.

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Speaker 1: Think it is generally fair to blame the child and

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Speaker 1: incidents of divorce. I think we can all usually yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the official stance of this podcast. So he gets

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Speaker 1: together after Vincent Senior leaves with a guy named Leo

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Speaker 1: Lupton Junior. Leo is a high school dropout and an

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Speaker 1: electrician who had already abandoned one family before he got

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Speaker 1: married to this family in nineteen Again, these are honestly

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Speaker 1: these are my people, right, this is this is the American,

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Speaker 1: the Heartland.

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Speaker 2: Yes, classic American.

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Speaker 4: Listen to the Allman Brothers always leaving his family in

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Speaker 4: the rear view Marriaga.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's his hobby, is leaving families. It's an rd

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Speaker 2: form for some abandoning his family. Good stuff.

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Speaker 1: So he abandons his first family in nineteen forty, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's very funny. So before he meets Vicky, he

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Speaker 1: abandons this first family, a wife and a daughter, and

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Speaker 1: he gets like charged and convicted for this and his

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Speaker 1: sentence for abandoning his family, he is sentenced to quote

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Speaker 1: two years on the roads.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean? You're exiled from the cities. I

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Speaker 2: didn't know.

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Speaker 1: My guess is like, realistically, probably some sort of like

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Speaker 1: hard labor on the highway system. But that that is

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Speaker 1: a Cormack McCarthy ass sounding just.

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Speaker 2: Like and his bindle. Two years in the roads. God,

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Speaker 2: the forties were funny.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess some unfunny stuff happened, but it

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Speaker 1: was mostly a laugh.

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Speaker 2: So this would be the pillow in the sky, shall

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Speaker 2: be a blanket sentenced to hobo.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, we ought to be doing that now, like when

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Speaker 1: we had the big financial crash in two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 1: All those bankers. You gotta be a hobo. Now you

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Speaker 1: gotta go wander with a bendle no more than two

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Speaker 1: nights in the same city. God, what a cool sounding punishment.

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Speaker 1: So he finishes his time on the roads and gets

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Speaker 1: together with Vicki after she breaks up with Vincent Senior.

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Speaker 1: They get married in nineteen forty seven. This is her

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Speaker 1: third marriage in six years, which is honestly pretty impressive.

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Speaker 1: For now, those are some numbers. I'll give it to her.

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Speaker 1: So Vince McMahon are Vince McMahon. Vince Junior is a

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Speaker 1: professional liar and a fabulous In another era he would

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Speaker 1: have been a Carnival barker. And this is a problem

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Speaker 1: for us because he's been pretty good over the years

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Speaker 1: at doing his own PR.

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Speaker 4: In this era, he's a party. He is a Carnival marker. Yes,

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Speaker 4: he's the most Carney son of a bis. He does

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Speaker 4: have strong Carnie energy. He's been doing his own pr

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Speaker 4: for quite a while and he's given a couple of

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Speaker 4: remarkable interviews where he goes into honestly startling detail about

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Speaker 4: his father and his own childhood, although you can't ever

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Speaker 4: trust anything he says entirely, like, you have to go

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Speaker 4: over this kind of stuff because number one, even if

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Speaker 4: he's lying, it's fascinating that he would say some of

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Speaker 4: these things. But you always take it with a grain

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Speaker 4: of salt. So one of the two really good, good

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Speaker 4: interviews we have where he talks about his early life

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Speaker 4: is a feature with New York Magazine titled Beyond Fake

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Speaker 4: and written by veteran journalist Nancy Joe Sales. The other

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Speaker 4: is an interview in Playboy Magazine with an unnamed reporter

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Speaker 4: who sounds like the kind of dude you'd expect to

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Speaker 4: find wrestling interviewing wrestling promoters for Playboy magazine, And unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: the Playboy interview was the one where he gives us

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Speaker 4: the most detail about his childhood. It is worth noting

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Speaker 4: that this interview was conducted as part of a promotional

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Speaker 4: campaign Vince was doing for the XFL, which was supposed

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Speaker 4: to be an ultra violent football league with no rules

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Speaker 4: and wound up collapsing inside of a year because all

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Speaker 4: of the athletes were hoping to get hired by the NFL,

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Speaker 4: and none of them wanted to suffer life altering energies

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Speaker 4: injuries in the XFL. So Vince is very much in

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Speaker 4: macho mode while he's doing this piece. You know, he's

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Speaker 4: trying to sell himself in order to sell the XFL.

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Speaker 4: You know, as a result. For example, he starts this

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Speaker 4: interview by talking about how he doesn't feel pain, which

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Speaker 4: is why he's so good at taking hits in the ring.

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Speaker 4: Later in the interview, he calls his stepfather, Leo Lupton,

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Speaker 4: a real asshole who quote enjoyed kicking people around. Playboy

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Speaker 4: asks him, your stepfather beat you, and Vince nods yes.

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Speaker 4: Quote It's unfortunate that he died before I could kill him.

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Speaker 4: I would have enjoyed that, not that he didn't have

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Speaker 4: some redeeming qualities. He was an athlete, great at any sport,

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Speaker 4: which I admired, and I remember watching the Jackie Gleason

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Speaker 4: Show with him. We used to laugh together at Jackie Gleason.

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Speaker 2: Jesus.

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Speaker 3: I like the idea of going through masturbating to a

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Speaker 3: magazine and getting to the story and being like, hm,

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Speaker 3: it only makes it hotter.

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Speaker 2: For me, I'm being honest.

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Speaker 4: You gradually stop masturbating as you're reading.

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Speaker 1: After a solid hour with the restart, after a solid

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Speaker 1: hour with this ball draining cum mag I was happy

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Speaker 1: to see Vince McMahon's face.

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Speaker 2: Let me know I could rehydrate a very alluring story,

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Speaker 2: mister McMahon, Thank you.

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Speaker 3: So this interview, say it's slower.

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Speaker 4: Everyone gripping their dick really appreciates it.

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Speaker 1: So one of the great things about this, like that's

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Speaker 1: an objectively insane thing to say, Like it's unfortunate he

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Speaker 1: died before I could kill him, but at least we

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Speaker 1: used to listen to laugh at Jackie Gleason together, Like

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Speaker 1: that's sh right, that's a crazy thing to tell.

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Speaker 2: Playboy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot there, and the

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Speaker 1: interview like, honestly low key. The interviewer here is also

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Speaker 1: a bastard because after he says we used to laugh

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Speaker 1: together at Jackie Gleason, the Playboy journalist says Lupton was

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Speaker 1: an electrician. He hit you with his tools, didn't he

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Speaker 1: a pipe wrench?

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Speaker 2: What jesus what Vince?

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Speaker 1: Vince says, sure, sure, and then the Playboy guy says

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Speaker 1: hit your brother too, and Vince says, God, no, I

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Speaker 1: was the only one of the kids who would speak up,

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Speaker 1: and that's what provoked the attacks. You would think that

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Speaker 1: after being on the receiving end of numerous attacks, I

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Speaker 1: would wise up, but I couldn't.

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Speaker 2: I refuse to.

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Speaker 1: I felt I should say something, even though I knew

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Speaker 1: what the result would be. And that's like, you know again,

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Speaker 1: obviously he's he's he's in part doing this to like

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Speaker 1: mythologize like this, I'm like, this is like in context,

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Speaker 1: he starts with being like, I'm tough, I don't feel pain.

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Speaker 1: I learned how to not feel pain because my dad

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Speaker 1: beat me. He beat me because I wouldn't stop mouthing off, right,

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Speaker 1: like this is both possibly parts of this are I'm

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Speaker 1: sure parts of this are true. And also he's telling

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Speaker 1: you this because he thinks it makes him look cool.

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Speaker 1: Which is this like just an undeniable aspect of this

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Speaker 1: Playboy interview And.

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Speaker 2: Then his story is just getting completely poisoned by this

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Speaker 2: interviewer who in this interviewer, it's a piece of shit.

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Speaker 2: You don't want to say no to this, but.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he hits you with a ridge, right, So Vince

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Speaker 1: claims the physical abuse started when he was six, and

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Speaker 1: continued for the next half decade or so at least.

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Speaker 1: When the playboy guy tells him, that's an awful way

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Speaker 1: to learn how a man behaves, Vince gives this line,

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Speaker 1: I learned how not to be. One thing I loathe

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Speaker 1: is a man who will strike a woman. There's never

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Speaker 1: an excuse for that. Now hold on to that for

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Speaker 1: a moment, folks, because we'll be talking about this a

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Speaker 1: little later.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Leo went on to have a son later in life.

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Speaker 1: Leo Lupton his stepdad, and this son when interviewered by

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Speaker 1: I believe it was Josie Riiseman who interviewed his son,

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Speaker 1: who is like Vincent R. Vincent's half brother, this guy says,

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Speaker 1: I didn't experience any abuse like our dad, you know,

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Speaker 1: didn't hit me. Obviously, that doesn't mean Vince isn't telling

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Speaker 1: the truth. This kind of thing happens all the time.

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Speaker 1: That said, like, it's also I'm trying both not to

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Speaker 1: deny because it's entirely possible that Vince and in fact

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Speaker 1: probably pretty likely that he received something we would consider

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Speaker 1: physical child abuse, and also every word, nearly every word

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Speaker 1: out of Vince McMahon's mouth is a lie and has

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Speaker 1: been for like fifty years. This is a complicated thing

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Speaker 1: that in your head ethically, but I think both of

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Speaker 1: those things need to be acknowledged.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: I don't doubt that this was a difficult period in

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Speaker 1: his childhood. He certainly reports that. And Leo Lupton is

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Speaker 1: a bit of a dirt bag. So again, you know,

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Speaker 1: all of this, all of these things can be true.

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Speaker 1: And while his biological dad was While this was all

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Speaker 1: going on, his biological dad, Vincent Senior was reaping the

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Speaker 1: sweet rewards of abandoning both of his children to focus

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Speaker 1: on his wrestling career. When Jess McMahon R, Vince's grandfather

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Speaker 1: died in nineteen fifty four, Vincent Senior took over what

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Speaker 1: had become a sizable family business, one of the larger

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Speaker 1: wrestling concerns in the United States. Syndicate's probably a better

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Speaker 1: thing to call it. So Vincent Senior was known to

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Speaker 1: his wrestlers as a nice guy and a world of

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Speaker 1: promoters that were mostly unhinged psychopaths. Right, most wrestling promoters,

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00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,360
Speaker 1: most syndicate leaders are like you know, von Eric, Right,

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Speaker 1: they are like just a slight step away from just

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Speaker 1: being a straight up gang boss and some of them

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Speaker 1: are literally gang bosses. Yeah, the these people are like

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Speaker 1: wild men. And by the way, Vincent Senior does work

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Speaker 1: pretty closely with Toots. Vincent Senior is generally known as

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Speaker 1: like he's a relatively honest one. He's reasonably good to

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Speaker 1: work for. Now, this is what a lot of his

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Speaker 1: wrestlers will say. I'm not sure if that's actually true

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Speaker 1: or if he was just really good at being likable

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Speaker 1: while he fucked people over, and he just kind of

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Speaker 1: was able to differentiate differentiate himself from the other leaders

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Speaker 1: because he dressed better and he was kind of nicer

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Speaker 1: to his employees to their faces. There's some interviews that

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Speaker 1: make me suspect that his reputation for being a decent

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Speaker 1: guy was largely the result of kind of his marketing.

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Speaker 1: One of these is a quote from Jesse the Body

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Speaker 1: Ventura quote. You could be angry at Vince Senior for

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Speaker 1: a payoff. You'd walk in, you'd voice your complaint, you'd

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Speaker 1: walk out, and you'd feel great, and yet you got

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Speaker 1: no more money when he was sticking it to you.

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Speaker 1: He always made you feel good while he was doing it.

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Speaker 1: And Jesse the Body Venture is somebody we're going to

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Speaker 1: be hearing from a little bit later as well. Fascinating man. So,

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Speaker 1: Vince Senior was a ruthless businessman, but he was also

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Speaker 1: a team player. When the Justice Department cracked down on

385
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Speaker 1: the NWA for being an illegal cartel and threatening independent promoters,

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Speaker 1: Vincent Senior tampered with a witness, threatening one of his

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Speaker 1: wrestlers to change their testimony before a deposition. He's not

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Speaker 1: in the WA, but he's an affiliate. And when they

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Speaker 1: come to him being like, hey, one of your guys

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Speaker 1: is gonna, you know, basically testify to the government that

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Speaker 1: we're operating as an illegal cartel in order to keep

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Speaker 1: the prices low for you know, paying our wrestlers, Vince

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Speaker 1: sits down with this guy and he's like, hey, man,

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Speaker 1: this is the end of your career if you if

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Speaker 1: you do this shit. You know, he's he's that guy.

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Speaker 1: He is willing to go to bat for his industry,

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Speaker 1: for the owners in his industry.

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Speaker 2: Good for him, Good for him? Yeah, maybe or maybe

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Speaker 2: I'm confused. This might be terribly ethical.

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Speaker 1: So as far as I can tell, it doesn't seem

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00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 1: like little kid Vince was particularly into wrestling during the

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Speaker 1: years when he didn't know his biological father. In fairness,

403
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Speaker 1: he seems to have had a lot on his mind

404
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Speaker 1: besides the fact that his stepdad was a violent guy.

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Speaker 1: In that Playboy interview, he mentions having been the victim

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Speaker 1: of some kind of sex abuse as a child. The

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Speaker 1: interviewer asks him for details, and this is this journalist

408
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Speaker 1: is the worst person to interview somebody about potentially being

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Speaker 1: victim of a sex crime. Vince's first response when the

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00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 1: interviewer asked for details is actually pretty reasonable. He says,

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Speaker 1: that's not anything I would like to embellish just because

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Speaker 1: it was weird. The interviewer kind of assumes he's talking

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Speaker 1: about being sexually abused by a male adult, and Vincent

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Speaker 1: tells him, no, it was not from a man. And

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Speaker 1: then the Playboy interviewer asks, it's well known that you're

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Speaker 1: estranged from your mother. Have we found the reason now

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Speaker 1: why I might rather die than ask that question of

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Speaker 1: anyone without an extremely good reason?

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Speaker 2: But are you fishing for trauma? Dude?

420
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Speaker 1: Like that is part of me, and I maybe I'm

421
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: just kind of being hopeful part of me wonders if,

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Speaker 1: like maybe he and Vince cleared some stuff ahead of

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Speaker 1: time and planting Vince is again a k fabe guy,

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Speaker 1: right like he is, he does this so.

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Speaker 2: Maybe because the it is weird.

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Speaker 1: It's wild to ask a guy that question and not

427
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Speaker 1: get fucking cold cocked. Yes, like, but maybe they were.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I like, I really don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh So anyway, Vince answers and says, you know, after

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Speaker 1: this guy says it's well, you know, you're strange from

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Speaker 1: your mom, and we found basically insinuating did your mom

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Speaker 1: sexually like abuse you, Vince asks, answers. I'd say that's

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Speaker 1: pretty close. So for quite a while everyone took that

435
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: as like Vince confirming that his mom sexually abused him.

436
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 2: So that's what he wants us to believe.

437
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's hard to interpret that any other way.

438
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, every Evince's man, I mean, it's just what

439
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 4: you were saying earlier. Every interview I've ever seen Evince

440
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 4: seems like it's at least partially a work exactly regardless

441
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 4: of what he's talking about, it always seems like he's

442
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 4: performing to an extent. So it's really hard to it's

443
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 4: it is.

444
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: It is extremely hard to tell with Vince McMahon because

445
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: he's Vince McMahon.

446
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: Now, she did some weird sex stuff with my mom.

447
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:26,959
Speaker 2: Watched thel.

448
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: And it's like, you know, obviously some people will bring up, well,

449
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 1: he took care of his mom. He like gave her

450
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 1: money and stuff for the rest of her life, which

451
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean she didn't sexually abuse him, right, Like family,

452
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: this all, this stuff's all complicated. Around the same time

453
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 1: as this playboy interview, I think a little bit afterwards

454
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: he winds up, definitely afterwards. He winds up on The

455
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: Howard Stern Show to promote a pay per view wrestling

456
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 1: event and also to promote the XFL. Howard Stern is

457
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: Howard Stern if you're not aware. So of course he

458
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 1: brings up these allegations of like child molestations, saying he'd

459
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 1: read that Vince had been molested by his mother. Now,

460
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to read a quote from Jody Risman's book

461
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 1: Ring Master, relating the rest of that conversation. I didn't

462
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: say that, Vince countered in a tone that suggested a

463
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: rising shield. That was the inference. Stern's co host, Robin

464
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: Quivers asked, what did she do? Vince didn't answer. Stern posited,

465
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, but whatever it was, it was not good.

466
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: Vince blurted out and obviously forced laughed. Vince, you get

467
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 1: all choked up when you talk about it, right, Stern asked,

468
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 1: I'd rather not talk about that stuff. Vince replied, Quivers,

469
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: your mother is around, and you don't talk to her. Vince,

470
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: not a lot. Stern, Boy, did she blow it? Because man,

471
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: you're a billionaire. Does she get any money from the WWF,

472
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: Quivers asked, referring to WWE by its then current name.

473
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: Stern interrupted the question to add, I just realized when

474
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: I said did she blow it? That's the question. Everyone

475
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: in the studios yelled out a mock disapproving oh at

476
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: the host's stick joke. Well, everyone other than Vince. Vince,

477
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: I apologize. Stern said, that would be traumatic, that would

478
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: be trim ma. Vince said, right now, that is again

479
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: fucking insane. What that is like, Howard Stern, you don't

480
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: you don't make a blow job joke about somebody's being

481
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: sexually abused when they were like six.

482
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 2: You just you don't do that. That's that's really bad. Howard.

483
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I don't know what to say about that.

484
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm in the unusual position of feeling bad

485
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 4: for Vince.

486
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: I do kind of feel bad for Vince there. Yeah,

487
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: that's brutal.

488
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 2: That is that is that's out of its fucking mind.

489
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 2: This is that is that happened?

490
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something else. So in that Playboy article, Vince

491
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: went into what I would describe as a baffling degree

492
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: of detail about his early life, just outside of the

493
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: stuff we've already talked about. At one point, the interviewer

494
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: asks him when he lost his virgin which is at

495
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: least kind of a normal Playboy question, although it's weird

496
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: to ask that after he has talked about being sexually

497
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 1: assaulted as a child. Yeah, and it's I kind of

498
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: get the feeling that both men do not consider being

499
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 1: molested to be the same as losing your virginity, which

500
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: actually kind of I mean, I think you could argue

501
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,479
Speaker 1: makes a degree of sense because they're talking about having

502
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: a consensual sexual experience.

503
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes it. That makes sense the spirit of

504
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: the question, I would not count it, right. Yeah.

505
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: Anyway, his response here is still one of the most

506
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: baffling things I have ever seen a man admit to

507
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: in a public forum. And this is him again talking

508
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: about losing his virginity. That was at a very young age.

509
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: I remember, probably in the first grade, being invited to

510
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: a matine film with my stepbrother and his girlfriends, and

511
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 1: I remember them playing with me, playing with my penis

512
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: and giggling. I thought that was pretty cool. That was

513
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: my initiation into sex. At that age. You don't necessarily

514
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: achieve an erection, but it was cool. And around the

515
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: same there was a girl my age who was in essence,

516
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 1: my cousin. Later in life, she actually wound up marrying

517
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: that asshole, Leo Lupton, my stepfather, a boy. This sounds

518
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: like tobacco road anyway. I remember the two of us

519
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 1: being so curious about each other's bodies and not knowing

520
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: what the hell to do. We would go into the

521
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: woods and get naked together. It felt good, and for

522
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 1: some reason I wanted to put crushed leaves into her.

523
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: Don't know why, but I remember that. I don't remember

524
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: the first time I had intercourse, believe it or not. Now,

525
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: what if you're counting leaf stuff. If we're counting leave.

526
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 2: Stuff, then cunning leaves stuff. I guess first grade it's

527
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: one of those things.

528
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: Look, I actually can definitely say I have had friends stop.

529
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 2: To me about or stuff like a scarecrow.

530
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: I don't think it's uncommon for little kids to like

531
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: play around with other little kids sometimes, and that's sometimes

532
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 1: like that. But sure, talking about it in this way

533
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: is nuts. That this I feel confident that's saying.

534
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 3: If one of them says, I want to stuff leafs

535
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 3: inside you, now you've got a problem. Now this is

536
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 3: outside Yeah, the acceptable level of like discovery and weirdness

537
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 3: that all humans go through.

538
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is and I think again, the weirdest

539
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: part is talking about it in the context of losing

540
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: your virginity to Playboy, because honestly, both of those stories

541
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: one is like you're with your step brother and they

542
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: like play with your penis for some reason, and one

543
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: is you're playing with another little kid and like stuff

544
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: like leaves in their underwear. Neither of those is sex.

545
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: I don't think, like neither of those is consensual sex.

546
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: Neither of those is even intercourse. Like, I don't know,

547
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: I don't know why you bring that up at all

548
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: in this context.

549
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 4: I guess like Vince's weird brain, he was just like,

550
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 4: there's there's okay. It's like in his weird brain he

551
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 4: might have thought like, oh, well, I mean that the

552
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 4: first time that I, you know, went, my penis flicked around.

553
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 4: But they also like there's it reminds me of like

554
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 4: the kind of weird boasting kids do when they're just

555
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 4: hitting puber. It's like, oh, yeah I had like I

556
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 4: had sex in second grade or yeah, it's all bullshit.

557
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 4: So it's like there's a weird component of that to

558
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 4: it as well, like he's trying to seem cool by

559
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 4: saying he had sex as young as possible.

560
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, these are like, these are both like stories. I

561
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: don't know, if you were a major figure and decided

562
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: to write your autobiography, you might if it was a

563
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: particularly honest autobiography, tell a story like that when talking

564
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: about your early childhood, like saying it in like I

565
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,479
Speaker 1: don't know, a fucking Playboy interview as sort of this

566
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: is how I lost my virginity? Is is bizarre?

567
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 3: Explain away like a leaf fetish or some like really

568
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 3: strange thing. You got caught doing it? You're like, well.

569
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: You got caught fucking a tree. Yeah, here's why. Yeah,

570
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: they caught me naked in a compost bin. But let

571
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: me explain why my stepdad he got sentence to two

572
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: years on the room. He sucked a lot of trees.

573
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 4: Oh wait, I didn't mean that paper is basically trees.

574
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's fair to the other things.

575
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 4: He's doing this interview to promote his weird arena football.

576
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: To promote the XFL.

577
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: He talks about stuffing leaves and another child's underwear.

578
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 3: The XFL really was like this violent, insecure, like man's

579
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 3: man version of football. And here he is telling these

580
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 3: these fucking intimate like dark sexual.

581
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: Stories, prittly intimate stories, these stories that like, these are

582
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: the kinds of experiences that you do your best to

583
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: like not I don't know, it seems these are these

584
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: are the kind of experiences and like if you have,

585
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess there's I mean, just statistically some of

586
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: the people listening will have similar experiences. Nothing sure wrong

587
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: with this, but like, these are the kind of things

588
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: you would you know, a close friend when you're know

589
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 1: bearing your soul some night, you know, or somebody that

590
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: you're in a romantic relationship with when you've you've built

591
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,959
Speaker 1: up a degree of trust, right, Playboy Magazine, like fucking

592
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: Gitmo couldn't get me out of this out anything for

593
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: a public forum.

594
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 4: This story is probably on the same page as a

595
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 4: grotesquely sexual cartoon or in ad.

596
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: For camel cigarettes. Right, this is funny.

597
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 4: It's to a picture of Joe Cammell in a fucking

598
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 4: leather jacket.

599
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's something the fuck else is for what

600
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: it is for? Goddamn sure it is something the fuck else.

601
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: And you know what else is something else? Guys, these

602
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: product and services, these products and services.

603
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 2: You beat me to it.

604
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, there's nothing adds love more than being featured

605
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: right after talking about Vince McMahon's bizarre admissions of sexual

606
00:31:53,520 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: abuse in Playboy magazine. So here buy some shit. Ah,

607
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: we're back boy. That's going to make life easier for

608
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: the ad sales team. So, as a rule, when Vince

609
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: talks about his childhood, his early memori's focus around his stepfather, Leo.

610
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: Even his only young memory of his biological father involves

611
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: Leo Vincent Senior when Vince was a little kid, only

612
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: visited him once, and Vince Junior's memory of the event

613
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: was just that he was scared of Leo. Right, He

614
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: was scared of how to react in front of his

615
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: biological father because he was worried about how Leo would

616
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: react again if Leo's an abusive guy makes total sense.

617
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: Outside of this moment, Vince was completely separate from his

618
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: his biological father and from the McMahon family until the

619
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: age of twelve. One of his childhood friends recalls that

620
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: he and his brother did not even know how to

621
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: pronounce the name McMahon properly. Now, they didn't have a

622
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: lot of money when they were, you know.

623
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: Living the McMahon.

624
00:32:58,120 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: I think he did, like I think it was mcm

625
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: or something like that is how he said it. Yeah, Now,

626
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: they didn't have a lot of money, you know, in

627
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: the time when he was living as Vinnie Lupton and

628
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: Vince and his family kind of lived in a bad

629
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: part of town. There were hints of normalcy in their life, though.

630
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: Vicky volunteered with the local boy Scout troupe that Vince

631
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: was in and acted in community theater productions. Unfortunately, one

632
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: of these was a nineteen fifty three production of On

633
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: Stage America, described by the local paper as a minstrel

634
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: show with a modern patriotic twist. Vince Junior's mother was

635
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: in the Picaninny chorus. Josie Riiseman writes that this was

636
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: presumably in blackface, and I suspect she is correct there.

637
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: Yeah to the listeners, everyone who knows what that word

638
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 3: means is dead.

639
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 2: But that's a really racist Yeah, don't use it.

640
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 4: There's no other assumption you can make based on that word.

641
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, if you see that word written somewhere, it's like,

642
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: if you see that word written somewhere, whoever wrote it

643
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: all most certainly has a Confederate flag in their home.

644
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 4: It is referencing the most racist thing you've ever seen

645
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 4: if you see it somewhere.

646
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 2: Bad stuff.

647
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: So that said, really common stuff for the day, Right,

648
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: this is not like fringe shit in North Carolina in

649
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: the period of time in which she's acting in this,

650
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: But doesn't make it right. I'm just you know, trying

651
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: to add context. He grows up in a pretty racist

652
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: place in time. Vincent's elementary school was segregated further back

653
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: up that point, and his sixth grade class had just

654
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: thirty two students. In an interview with Playboy, he describes

655
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: himself and his friends as the roughest kids in town,

656
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: constantly getting into fights and scrapes. He claims that he

657
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: was totally unruly, that he refused to go to school

658
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,439
Speaker 1: and broke the law constantly without ever getting caught.

659
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 2: That's what they called me.

660
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: He's talking about himself when he's like ten. In one interview,

661
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 1: In one interview, he let out a potentially revealing statement

662
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,479
Speaker 1: saying that he felt as a kid that he wasn't

663
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: as bright as the other kids, and so he defaulted

664
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 1: to physicality as a result. That sounds like it might

665
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: be like an honest admission of insecurity. But there's reason

666
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: to doubt all of this, Riiseman notes quote. However, the

667
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: picture that emerges from those who knew him is surprisingly

668
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: of a kind kid who made friends with ease. He was,

669
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: from what I can remember, fairly popular, and he was

670
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: liked by the girls as well as the boys. Recalls

671
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: classmate Shelle Davis, who became the boy's best friend in town.

672
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 1: Most everyone knew him liked him, that sort of thing.

673
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: Vinnie was not a loud or abrasive child. Rod's best

674
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: friend from the period, James Fletcher says that despite encountering

675
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: Vinnie at some length, the younger kid didn't make a

676
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: big impression. That said, as Davis puts at, Vinnie was

677
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: more extroverted than introverted, not a show off, but very sociable,

678
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: very friendly, very outgoing to his peers. So again, he

679
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: kind of as a preteen and as a teen he

680
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: kind of portrays himself as this like violent, unhinged badass.

681
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 1: But everyone knew him was like he was really nice. Yeah,

682
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: got along with everybody.

683
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. It's every stage of his life that he's.

684
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 4: Telling a story about to Playboy sounds at least partially

685
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 4: made up.

686
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: Uh huh, and it is badass. Maybe he might.

687
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 3: These people grew up so scared of little Vinnie that

688
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 3: they're like, Dude, if Playboy interviews me, I'm gonna tell

689
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 3: him that he was there.

690
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 2: A fucking ten year old in town. That'll cut your

691
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: goddamn neck. It was like, if.

692
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 3: Thirty years from now someone comes up and starts asking

693
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 3: you questions about my personality at this point in time,

694
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: you better tell him I was sweet.

695
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 4: Little Vinny's out here smashing people's knuckles with a hammer.

696
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: So when he's around twelve, his stepdad moves Vincent Senior,

697
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: Vinnie Lupton, and the family to Craven County. Now, by

698
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 1: this point, Vincent Senior's business had expanded to control much

699
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: of the wrestling in the Northeastern United States. He was

700
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: one of the biggest promoters in the country, regularly booking

701
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: sold out events in Madison Square Garden. Vincent Junior had

702
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: no idea of any of this until Vincent Senior's new wife, Juanita,

703
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: pushed him to reconnect with his first biological children. So

704
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: basically his I don't know what technically she would be

705
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: to him. I guess technically nothing, but like his biological

706
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: dad's wife, it's you know, when his kids are like

707
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: twelve and thirteen years his first biological kids are twelve

708
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: and thirteen, is like, hey, you should like talk to them,

709
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: like you should have some sort of relationship with you,

710
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: which is a very nice gesture, to be honest, Like,

711
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: that's very sweet of her. So the two finally meet

712
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: when Vincent is twelve years old. He later told New

713
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: York Magazine, I saw my dad, and I just immediately

714
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: fell in love with him. He saw his father as

715
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: big and handsome, and while he says they knew that

716
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 1: making up for lost time wasn't possible, both of them

717
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: put a lot of effort into developing a belated relationship together,

718
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: and the easiest thing for them to bond over was wrestling. Quote,

719
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: he would take me to shows that the old U

720
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: Line Arena in Washington, and I remember the crowd response

721
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: in those larger than life individuals. The passion was just

722
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: so strong. I just knew that I wanted to do

723
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: that as soon as I saw it.

724
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 2: This is the.

725
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: Stuff that Vincent has been most consistent about over his childhood,

726
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: that he just kind of is immediately enthralled by his father,

727
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: is kind of obsessed with him. And there's also people

728
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 1: who are not Vince kind of say this, and Vincent

729
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: Senior's family, like his kids are like, you know, we

730
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: were friendly to him. We thought it was good that

731
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: dad was getting a relationship with him. He was a

732
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: little odd and kind of everyone says that about Vince

733
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: around his bio dad, that he's he's kind of peculiar.

734
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: And for the record, Vince Senior is going to find

735
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: his son's obsession with him and with wrestling to be

736
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 1: a little strange and not strange and like it's weird

737
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: that a kid would want to connect with his bio dad,

738
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: but he is super focused on wrestling in particular.

739
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 2: Imagine being Vinnie at this time. Though it is weird,

740
00:38:58,320 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: like that's a lot for a kid to deal with.

741
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: Got a history of abandoning your families, and then here

742
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 3: comes your kid's biological dad and he's like a billionaire

743
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 3: with his own wrestling company. You're like, that's that rage

744
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 3: is going to get internalized, that jealousy. That couldn't have

745
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 3: been good first yeah, first, a weird relationship.

746
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: So Vincent immediately wanted to be a wrestler and his

747
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 1: his bio dad, Vincent Senior tries to put to quash

748
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: this right like, he's very from the beginning, like, no, man,

749
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: you do not want to be a wrestler. He initially tried.

750
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 1: He warns him that like wrestling has wild ups and downs,

751
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: the market's not reliable. You know, sometimes I'm doing well,

752
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: but sometimes I'm barely floating by. You would do a

753
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: lot better. You'll be a lot happier if you just

754
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: find a safe government job that gives you a pension.

755
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: But Vince listened to that about as well as you

756
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: would expect a child being told that delivering male is

757
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,439
Speaker 1: a better future than wearing spandex and punching dudes dressed

758
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: as shakes would listen. Right, He's he's like, having a

759
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: pensions the smart thing, and he's like, but I want

760
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: to fight people for a living.

761
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 2: You make that choice ten out of ten times.

762
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely not surprising as a kid that he is

763
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: so focused on paper, I want to drop kick someone.

764
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: So in the summer of nineteen fifty nine, when Vince

765
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: was fourteen, he met the man who would become his

766
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:26,240
Speaker 1: childhood hero, a wrestler named doctor Jerry Graham. Vince recalled

767
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: he had peroxided hair and wore her red riverboat gambler

768
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: type shirt. He had a nineteen fifty nine blood red

769
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: Cadillac convertible Washington, DC. That summer of fifty nine, I'd

770
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: sneak out of my dad's office and go riding around

771
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: town with a good doctor and oh my god, he

772
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: would light cigars with one hundred dollars bills, run red lights,

773
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 1: curse anybody he wanted to curse. And I just thought

774
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: he was the coolest guy. He was a wild man.

775
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: He would do anything he wanted to do. Robert, this

776
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: guy is cool. This guy is in fact kind of cool.

777
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: This guy's sophie, would you have a a picture of

778
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: this guy? But yeah, he is doctor doctor Graham. Pretty

779
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: cool guy. Now, the story about him lighting one hundred

780
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: dollars bills on fire is one you'll find in every

781
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: recollection Vince has of his childhood. You know, as with

782
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: everything Vince says, it may or may not be true,

783
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: given things that we know for certain about doctor Cram,

784
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:21,959
Speaker 1: though I'm gonna say that's probably true.

785
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 3: That's kind of a bargain to get like everyone who

786
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 3: meets you to tell that story, like your whole life.

787
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 3: It's so one hundred dollars to get everyone to think, yeah,

788
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 3: that's that's a deal. I think people should start doing it.

789
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: So I think it's worth noting that Jerry Graham was

790
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: an incredible dude in his own right.

791
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 2: During World War Two.

792
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: He light about his age to enlist in the eighty

793
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: second Airborne and fight Nazis as a paratrooper when he's

794
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: like fifteen years old something like that, maybe sixty.

795
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: Like he's he is too young to be doing that,

796
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 2: but he does it.

797
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 1: Blood red catillect. If you know much about the eighty

798
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: second airbor looking the eighty second Airborne like a unit

799
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 1: is yeah, he looks.

800
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 2: Cool as hell, just astounding.

801
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: And doctor Jerry Graham exits World War Two basically a

802
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: pile of muscles and trauma. So much mass, there's so

803
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: much he is a huge dude. He has He has

804
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: the body type of like a fucking beach ball made

805
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: of steel, don't I don't know how else to describe it.

806
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: Very you wouldn't want to get into a fight with

807
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: this fella, Like, you're not not going to I don't

808
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: even know, yeah exactly, Like he's just stout. Yeah, his

809
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: body type is a fucking Hesco barricade. Like. So he

810
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: leaves the war traumatized as all hell. And a lot

811
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: of the behavior Vins witnessed was not just a result

812
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: of him being a cool dude, but a result of

813
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: chronic alcoholism, which was itself self medication for lifelong depression. Now,

814
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: the highlight, by his own admission, of doctor Graham's career

815
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: occurred two years before he met Vince in nineteen fifty seven,

816
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: when he was scheduled for a big exhibition match in

817
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: Madison Square Garden. And this is maybe the greatest riot

818
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,439
Speaker 1: in pro wrestling history. Have you guys heard this story,

819
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: the fifty seven riot at Madison Square Garden?

820
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 2: No big? Oh man, Oh you're gonna love this one. Details.

821
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: So doctor Graham is a heel, right, I mean, look

822
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: at that guy. That's a fucking heel. Yeah, he's cool,

823
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: because he's fucking cool as hell. Now, actually we are

824
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 1: about to talk about some racism, but you know whatever.

825
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: So Graham is paired up in a double match alongside

826
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: his fellow heel Dick the Bruiser, and against some Canadian

827
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: guy and his partner, who is a Puitter Rican wrestler

828
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 1: named Roca. The garden is packed with almost thirteen thousand fans.

829
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: Thousands more are turned away at the door. The crowd

830
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,959
Speaker 1: gets amped up, and you have to assume they're also

831
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: drunker than any group of people today could possibly get.

832
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: In an interview that he gave later in life, doctor

833
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: Graham said this about how the night went from a

834
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: normal wrestling match to something decidedly less k fabe. He

835
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 1: claimed he could smell the riot coming.

836
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 2: Quote.

837
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 1: I knew the timing was right. The Puerto Rican people

838
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: had never seen blood on Roca, and I hit him

839
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: in the eye, split his eye, and they went insane.

840
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,399
Speaker 1: So this was not something that they had planned before him,

841
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: like busting that guy's eye open was not planned. And

842
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 1: this makes Roca very angry, understandably, and they start fighting

843
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 1: for real and actually beating the shit out of each

844
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: other for real now. The match had been meant to

845
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: end in two straight falls, but Graham charged Roca when

846
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: he wasn't supposed to because Roka had been hitting him,

847
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: and Roka did that because he'd split his eye. Anyway,

848
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: the fight between them can keeps going on like it

849
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: doesn't end when it's supposed to, and there's a curfew

850
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 1: on wrestling matches in New York at this point at

851
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,919
Speaker 1: eleven pm. But eleven PM rolls around and these guys

852
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: are still beating the absolute shit out of each other,

853
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: So the ref calls the game for the baby faces

854
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: for Roca and his partner, but this just makes the

855
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 1: crowd angrier. Graham and the Bruiser continue beating the piss

856
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 1: out of Roka, even though the match is well past

857
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: where it was supposed to have ended by this point.

858
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 1: In a write up for Life Magazine by Herbert Bream,

859
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,479
Speaker 1: who was there, noted quote as the crowd roared, Roca

860
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 1: seized Graham and began bashing his head against the ring post.

861
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: This also produced real blood. Garden police tried to come

862
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 1: to Graham's aid, but they could not cope with the mastodons.

863
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna show you a fucking picture of this

864
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: because it's one of the most insane examples of in

865
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 1: ring violence I've ever seen. This is him, This is

866
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: doctor Jerry Graham getting his head smashed in against the

867
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: steel like pillar of the fucking ring.

868
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 2: Sophie fantasm Man.

869
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 3: He is bleeding a lot so, but these guys are

870
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 3: clearly in on it, like he's letting him bash his

871
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 3: headed in the ring.

872
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: Like I think there's a mix of that. Yeah, yeah,

873
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: it's a it's a little hard to tell. There's definitely

874
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: points at which like, this is not how they planned

875
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: it initially too, so it is like I was saying

876
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: the idea that, like, you.

877
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 3: Know, when he busted his eye open, he lost his temper,

878
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 3: but then you know, they they're still you know, in

879
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 3: a wrestling rose.

880
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: They're Yeah, it's hard to see. Yeah, it's like the

881
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 1: lines here are blurry, right.

882
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 2: He's got from the inside of the turnbuckle.

883
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 3: He's got his head against the ring and he's pushing

884
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 3: it and his hands are like not guarding his face

885
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 3: or not trying to get away. It's very much like

886
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 3: you'd expect a wrestling spot to go.

887
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: But but also that next picture is he is bleeding quite.

888
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 2: A lot leaking out in front of his face. In

889
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 2: the next picture.

890
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: It's worth relating what Graham later said about that moment.

891
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,240
Speaker 1: Of course, he retaliated, ran my head into the post,

892
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: and blood was flowing like water. An old time jubilee

893
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: right there in Madison Square Garden. So after Graham gets

894
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: his face bashed in Breams, coverage for Life magazine continues quote.

895
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: The crowd had been lively throwing paper cups into the ring,

896
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: but not abnormally demonstrative. Now, stimulated by what was probably

897
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 1: the first honest competition they had ever seen, some hundred

898
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: surged forth towards the ring. So Roka keeps beating Graham

899
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: while fans broke down chairs and gathered bottles, hucking some

900
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: at the wrestlers and using others to charge the wrestlers

901
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: and attack unfortunately for them. And this is mostly like

902
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: Rocca's fans who are like charging into the ring to

903
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: attack Graham and his partner Dick the Bruiser. Now unfortunately

904
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 1: for these random wrestling fans who are charging with pieces

905
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 1: of chairs and bottles. Dick the Bruiser, before being a

906
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: pro wrestler, had been a ligneman for the Green Bay Packers, Now,

907
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: I am sure somewhere there exists a kind of dude

908
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: you want to fight less than a linebacker turned pro wrestler,

909
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: But I don't know what that kind of dude might be.

910
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: Doctor Graham describes what came next. My partner, Dick the Bruiser,

911
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: was picking up and throwing Puerto Ricans outside the ring

912
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,760
Speaker 1: like a farmer picking potatoes. Then New York's finest Antam

913
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: Moon events have brought in the cavalry to close the

914
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: fans down, And that Dolly was the biggest thing I

915
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 1: ever experienced in my career. I was found three thousand

916
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 1: dollars for inciting a riot, but it was the first

917
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: time they ever saw blood on the Latin Roca.

918
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 2: So I don't remember that thing to say he was

919
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: throwing Print Ricans like potatoes. What a wild thing to say.

920
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 3: I love how credulous he was too, like there when

921
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 3: in the first real brawl, this was no longer a that.

922
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 2: Is such a fifties moment. Ah, we're back.

923
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: So the riot of fifty seven at Madison Square Garden

924
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: only ended because Rocca addressed his fans in Spanish and

925
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 1: begged them to stop. At the end of it, two

926
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: officers were injured, three hundreds were destroyed, and doctor Jerry

927
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: Graham's five hundred dollars sequined purple robe was stolen, which is.

928
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:07,760
Speaker 2: The real tragedy.

929
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, plus all those chairs, Now three hundred people will

930
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 4: go seatless.

931
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 2: Yeah that one.

932
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 3: All those Puerto Ricans he threw like like a filthy

933
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 3: irishman picking potatoes.

934
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: I want a photoshop of like the crocodile hunter at

935
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,879
Speaker 1: the Twin Towers and doctor Jerry Graham's sequined purple robe.

936
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 1: That just says, never forget. That's what we're fighting, that's

937
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: what we're fighting for.

938
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 2: I'm wearing one right now. So the riot caused.

939
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: Such shock among the great and good of Manhattan that

940
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 1: there were calls to ban wrestling in the entire state. Instead,

941
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: they just decided to ban kids under fourteen from attending

942
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: live shows, which held for twenty years. I only kids

943
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 1: under fourteen were particularly a.

944
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 2: Part of this.

945
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: But were they hammered one set in the chairs. I

946
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 1: don't think they were. The hammered people charging that linebacker.

947
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 2: Throwing them should fucking kids across the room.

948
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: So anyway, Dick Bruiser, the guy who described what Dick

949
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: the Bruiser is doing as hucking Puerto Rican's like a

950
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 1: farmer throwing potatoes was the primary childhood role model for

951
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: teenage Vince McMahon outside of his biological dad. Now, for

952
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: his part, Vince Senior was concerned about this. Right. He

953
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 1: knows wrestlers, he knows doctor Graham, and he's like, boy,

954
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: my son probably shouldn't be hanging out with this guy.

955
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 1: So he attempted to restrict Vince Junior from hanging out

956
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 1: with doctor Graham. So Vince Junior developed a habit of

957
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: sneaking out whenever he was in town. You're sill to

958
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: do it, don't do this. So whenever Vince Junior's like

959
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: in DC to hang with his bio dad, he would

960
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,240
Speaker 1: sneak out at night so he could party with a drunk,

961
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: traumatized racist giant, which probably he explains a lot. Vince

962
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: told New York Magazine that same summer, at a place

963
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: outside of Atlantic City, while my dad was away, I

964
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: talked my steps mom into peroxiding my hair, and of

965
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,760
Speaker 1: course when my dad got back, he blew a stack.

966
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: That same summer, doctor Jerry Graham gave me my first

967
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: set of weights called HealthWays. I had the red shirt,

968
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 1: red pants, I also bought the red shoes. I think

969
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: my dad was probably a little afraid. Now, among other things,

970
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: Vince Defrey is my rib be dristed in red Now?

971
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,280
Speaker 1: Among other things, Vince idolized Jerry's toughness and his willingness

972
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: to get into fistfights at literally no provocation. His own

973
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: father is not like Vince McMahon. And this we'll talk

974
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 1: about this later, because he does stuff in the ring

975
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: quite a bit. He's a legitimately jacked dude. Like he's

976
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:50,839
Speaker 1: very muscular, and this is the ca I mean now

977
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: he's like ninety, but for most of his career he's

978
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: like a pretty shredded fellow. His dad, Vince Senior, is

979
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 1: not a particularly muscular guy. He's not an athlete. He

980
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: doesn't look like an athlete, which is nothing to get.

981
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,320
Speaker 1: He's just like, he's very different from how Vince is

982
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: going to wind up looking. He's a hard nosed businessman,

983
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: but no one's going to particularly fear Vince Senior for

984
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: his ability to like beat people up. Vince Junior seems

985
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,879
Speaker 1: to have desired to set himself apart from his biological

986
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: dad by developing the physical trappings.

987
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 2: Of being a badass.

988
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: That is, big muscles, but since doing that is hard,

989
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: he also just opted to lie about having been a

990
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: badass as a kid to interviewers. Years later, when talking

991
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: about his teenaged years, he told Playboy quote Havelock, where

992
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 1: he lived, is right outside the Marine base at Cherry Point.

993
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,399
Speaker 1: There was a place called the jet Drive in real

994
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: creative of the jet. Because of all the military jets

995
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: at the base on Friday and Saturday nights, it was

996
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: time to get it on with the Marines. It was

997
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: a challenge. Most of them were in great condition, but

998
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 1: they didn't know how to fight. I'm not saying there

999
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 1: were easy pickings. They got their testosterone going and they

1000
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,439
Speaker 1: were all liquored up. Some of them are real tough,

1001
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:57,280
Speaker 1: but me and my guys were street fighters.

1002
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 2: Oh my god, the I liked.

1003
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 4: I like that he took the time to pause this

1004
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 4: story that absolutely totally happened.

1005
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, to like dunk on the tribe in.

1006
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 3: Theaters name, I used to go to a marine funded

1007
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 3: kumite every weekend, but like I have some notes on

1008
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 3: the name.

1009
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also funny that he's like, yeah, you know,

1010
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: you know what everyone knows about marines that they don't

1011
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: know how to fight.

1012
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 2: Right, that's what they're famous for. The Marines. Oh my god.

1013
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 3: When my brother came back from basic training, he spent

1014
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 3: probably the better part of a year just pointing at

1015
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 3: objects near people and being like I could kill you

1016
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 3: with that ding. Yeah, it's just think they put it

1017
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 3: in their head like fighting is the only thing in

1018
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 3: your entire world and you need to kill everybody. And

1019
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 3: I might say he's a great fighter, like you can

1020
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 3: only teach someone so much in basic training, but I guarantee.

1021
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 1: He's a better Vince mcmixt Yeah, then, sixteen year old

1022
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: Vince McMahon. Vince continues his absolutely not true claims. I mean,

1023
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 1: maybe you've been through I'm sorry, I'm I mean maybe

1024
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: you've been through basic training and you know how to

1025
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:06,439
Speaker 1: operate a bayonet. That's different from sticky in somebody's eye

1026
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: or sitting a guy in the throat, which comes naturally

1027
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: to a street fighter.

1028
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 2: And they can't both.

1029
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 3: They do not teach soldiers to be ruthless fighters. They

1030
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 3: teach him to follow the Queensbury rules when they're out

1031
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 3: there fighting hits.

1032
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 1: Vince McMahon has never stuck his finger in somebody's eye, Like,

1033
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: I just don't believe it, and they can't believe you're

1034
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: not fighting fair. Sometimes suddenly they can't breathe in or

1035
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: see and they realize, oh my god, am I in

1036
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: for an ass kicking playboys?

1037
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 2: He's such a liar.

1038
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: Playboy asks ever come close to killing one of them? McMahon,

1039
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: I would like to think, not very close. That's not

1040
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,439
Speaker 1: what I wanted to do. You want to incapacitate the guy.

1041
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: Once you get someone down, you don't want him getting

1042
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 1: back up. You don't want him moving, so you make

1043
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: sure he doesn't. It's not pretty, but it was challenging

1044
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: and fun.

1045
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 2: Can we corroborate this? Can we google?

1046
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 3: Hi?

1047
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 2: I was a marine and I got my ass kicked.

1048
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 4: By Vince mc when I was If a towny beat

1049
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,280
Speaker 4: the shit out of a bunch of Air Force Marine

1050
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 4: dudes a drive in movie theater, that'll be in the newspaper.

1051
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 2: I will believe.

1052
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: And again, it's so easy to make a believable version

1053
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: of the sly say they were air force guys. Nobody's

1054
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: in a question that you were able to beat up

1055
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 1: air Force dudes.

1056
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 2: I could take yeah, easy.

1057
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 1: So look, uh, Thankfully we do have a good journalist

1058
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: who like looked into his life Josie Riseman, author of

1059
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: the again excellent book Ring Master, and her research pretty comprehensive. Here.

1060
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 1: It is true that locals of Half a Lock often

1061
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 1: taunted and sometimes fought marines, which is a time honored

1062
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: tradition of people who are drunk in towns near military bases,

1063
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 1: right soldiers get into all sorts of fights. But Josie's

1064
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: investigation turned churned up numerous claims by locals that Vince

1065
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: McMahon was never a part of any of this.

1066
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: This is yeah.

1067
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: Doug Franks, who went to High School of Events, admitted

1068
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 1: to getting into fights with marines on a k but

1069
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: said Vince was simply too young to participate. From Ringmaster,

1070
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,280
Speaker 1: Vince was not a part of it. But he grouped

1071
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: up with a bunch of wannabes and we just considered

1072
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: him a little punk at the time. That's the best

1073
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 1: way I know to describe him. I asked if Vince

1074
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: in his wannabe's ever gotten any fight or if they

1075
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: just hung around. They were hanging around in their own group,

1076
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 1: trying to be tough guys. Frank's recalls, the only time

1077
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 1: I knew we ever got into anything was when he

1078
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: broke his hand or his wrist in a fight with

1079
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: a boy named Harvey Elms. Neither Frank's nor mcles recalls

1080
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: what the fight was over, just that it was a

1081
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 1: very isolated incident. Vinny walked around with a cast on

1082
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: his hand and his wrist for three or four months.

1083
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 1: Frank said it was his claim to fame.

1084
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he knew he was going to get his

1085
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 3: ass kicked when he couldn't breathe, Like, I broke.

1086
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 2: My wrist on his neck, his throat, This is it

1087
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 2: for me?

1088
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so adult Vince would also claim decades later to

1089
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 1: have engaged in serious criminal activity as a teenager playboy.

1090
00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 1: Did you ever steal McMahon automobiles? But I always got

1091
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: him back? I just borrowed him. Really, there were other

1092
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: thefts too. I ran a load of moonshine in Harlow,

1093
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 1: North Carolina, in in nineteen fifty.

1094
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 2: Two Ford V eight. That was a badass car at

1095
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 2: the time. Damn, this is all very cool. Yeah, absolutely

1096
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 2: definitely true.

1097
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:19,439
Speaker 3: Which is over a bridge freezed and then I said

1098
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 3: Cole's Vincent man going to get out of this one.

1099
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 3: And then after the commercial break, I landed it. The

1100
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 3: fucking cops didn't rate in the fucking water. And anyways,

1101
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 3: I last sold the two mountains together and that's how

1102
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 3: we made the Mississippi River. Yeah, the cops had a

1103
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 3: nickname for me, called me Smoky. My partner was the bandit.

1104
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 3: That's what that movie is based on, except.

1105
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 2: In real laughter was more karate, more eyeball karate, hell

1106
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 2: of a lot more eyeball poking.

1107
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 1: So Vince says that the cops eventually caught up to

1108
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 1: him for all his bootlegging, and that's why he was

1109
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: forced to attend the military school. Now, the bootlegging and

1110
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: I have a cousin who got in trouble for stealing

1111
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: cars and was made to attend the military school. Stuff

1112
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 1: like this still happens, at least, I mean it happened

1113
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. Off it still happens today. But for Vince,

1114
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: I don't believe this is true. Vince's claim is that

1115
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: the cops gave him a choice between like military school

1116
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 1: in jail, and since his mom was broke, Vincent Senior

1117
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: paid for him to go to military school. This is

1118
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 1: again a lie. In other interviews that he gave earlier,

1119
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 1: his story is a lot more realistic. He claims that

1120
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 1: his school had to integrate while he was in tenth grade.

1121
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: This caused tumult and, perhaps due in part to being racist,

1122
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 1: Vince no longer liked it at his school once it

1123
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 1: was integrated. His grades in behavior were bad enough that

1124
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: the administration decided to kick him out, so military school

1125
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 1: was one of his only options. This wound up being

1126
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: what ultimately made him. He later recalled, I had no reputation,

1127
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 1: so it was a new beginning, a great chance to

1128
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: start over and create a new reputation. And so when

1129
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: Fishburne Military School in Waynesboro, Virginia started its nineteen sixty

1130
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 1: two school year, a new student entered its eleventh grade class.

1131
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: The previous year, Vince had been known as Vinnie looked

1132
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 1: at but at fishburn for the very first time, he

1133
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: started to go by a new name, Vince McMahon.

1134
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 2: So this is a tough guy. Laser duck. Yeah, has

1135
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 2: so many better names than Vince McMahon. You could have

1136
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 2: been Dick the Bruiser.

1137
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: Come on.

1138
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 2: Now, that is his name is Nate had lots of sex. Yeah.

1139
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 1: They call me the eye gounger for short. Though Marine

1140
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 1: Bain is my other nickname.

1141
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 2: My nickname is doesn't put leaves in his cousin.

1142
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: So this would be a good This is a pretty

1143
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 1: good breaking point to end on this episode. But I

1144
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: feel like I'd be doing everyone at disservice if I

1145
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 1: did not provide a coda for the epic story of

1146
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 1: doctor Jerry Graham. And I'm gonna ask you guys to

1147
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 1: strap yourselves in for this one because we're about to

1148
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 1: go on quite a So despite being a wild man

1149
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 1: in public, Jerry Graham was also a mama's boy, and

1150
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine, his mother was admitted to a

1151
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 1: hospital in Phoenix, Arizona. He called the doctor immediately as

1152
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: soon as she was admitted and told him he would

1153
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 1: hurt or kill the man if his mother died there. Now,

1154
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: this next book comes from a book by another wrestler, superstar,

1155
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 1: Billy Graham, and I'm going to quote from it now.

1156
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: When she died later that day, Graham showed up at

1157
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: the hospital with his twelve year old son wielding a

1158
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 1: hunting knife and a soft off shotgun. A tearful Graham

1159
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,440
Speaker 1: shoved down a nurse and tossed a security guard across

1160
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: a hallway, hoisting his dead mother's body off a gurney.

1161
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: And draping it over his shoulder. Another security guard rushed forward,

1162
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: and Graham knocked him down and dragged him across the

1163
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 1: floor while still holding the corpse with his other arm.

1164
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 1: My brother, Vance, a police officer in Phoenix at the time,

1165
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: vividly recalled how squad cars were called to the hospital,

1166
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: surrounding it and blocking off the streets nearby. Eventually, copstormed

1167
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 1: the hospital and arrested Graham, who screamed incoherently and pounded

1168
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 1: on the patrol car doors as he was taken into custody.

1169
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 2: So that's a hell of a thing. Christ, that's the

1170
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 2: hell of a thing.

1171
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: What. Yeah, he stole his mom's body from the hospital

1172
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 1: like you're still in a hunting night, f n his

1173
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 1: twelve year old son, and again.

1174
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 3: Could have just gone her to that discredited veterinarian. They

1175
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 3: could have brought her back to life, not the same

1176
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 3: as she was, no.

1177
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 2: Something different.

1178
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 1: These are these are the kind of stories that make

1179
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: wrestling amazing because you don't get this from the NFL, Right,

1180
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: you don't get this for this is a wrestling story.

1181
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 2: Oh, you were right about that guy being cool.

1182
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 1: That is.

1183
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 2: Cool.

1184
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 3: We can only hope to have someone who will break

1185
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 3: into the hospital when we die and just our body

1186
01:01:58,440 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 3: into the jack us.

1187
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 4: Like fucking new Bigfoot trying to reclaim his wife or something.

1188
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 2: Growing security guards. Yes, yeah, crashing through this hospital. An

1189
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 2: amazing man, pure engine of KOs. I'm taking her hell myself.

1190
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 4: The cover.

1191
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 2: Now it was teeth it is.

1192
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 1: It is worth noting and sad to note that Graham

1193
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: was broke by this point, possibly as a result of

1194
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: burning all those hundred dollars bills he had sent the

1195
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 1: money some of them.

1196
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1197
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 1: Well, he had sent his mom money for decades as

1198
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: a savings account, and when in the.

1199
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 2: That's what he needed the body.

1200
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, when when she died, she she had about a

1201
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: half a million dollars of his money, but unfortunately she

1202
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:50,479
Speaker 1: gave all of it to the Baptist Church.

1203
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 2: Doctor.

1204
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 1: Jerry when he found out, spent the rest of his

1205
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 1: life with a vicious hatred of religion and died in

1206
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven of a stroke at age sixty eight,

1207
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 1: which is a lot longer than I expected Jerry Graham

1208
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 1: to live.

1209
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, he beat the odds.

1210
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 4: He beat the odds, both for wrestlers and just general

1211
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 4: maniacs y, both.

1212
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 2: For wrestlers and people who steal a corpse from a

1213
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 2: hospital at shotgun point. Anyway, that's that's part two. I'm

1214
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 2: glad on a happy one. Yeah, it is a tail.

1215
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 1: What an amazing guy. Yeah, yeah, you know, some people aren't.

1216
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 1: You can't qualify them as good or bad. They're just incredible.

1217
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 1: And Jerry Graham is incredible.

1218
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 4: They're just they're just awe inspiring positive or negative connotation

1219
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:46,479
Speaker 4: of it, just general awe.

1220
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad we don't have more of him, but

1221
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 2: I'm really glad we have him. Yeah. It's like when

1222
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 2: you see t Rex's skeleton, like that was cool. I'm

1223
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 2: glad it's not still here.

1224
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, you make it through like a really

1225
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 1: insane thunderstorm in You're life. Well that was amazing, but

1226
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: I don't want to go through that again. I yeah, yeah,

1227
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 1: I'd like to avoid repeating this experience. Good stuff. This

1228
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 1: is the end of part too. You guys want to

1229
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:13,440
Speaker 1: plug your pluggables here.

1230
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, I'm doing the very last comedy website on

1231
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 3: the internet with mi Wow. Robert Brockway is sadly close

1232
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 3: to true.

1233
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. We started as a joke and we're like, no,

1234
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 2: this is true, true actually it's like the golden age

1235
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 2: of Internet jokes. We got text and pictures.

1236
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 3: Join our patreon at Patreon dot com Slash one nine

1237
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 3: hundred hot Dog.

1238
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 2: It's the best. We're very proud of it. You should be.

1239
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 2: It's very very fun and cool.

1240
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 1: Now, Tom, you also have some fun and cool things

1241
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 1: to plug.

1242
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 2: I have a thing to plug it anyway.

1243
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:53,720
Speaker 4: Anyway, my god a podcast network Gameslan employee that I

1244
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 4: started with David Bell, our friend and former Crack coworker.

1245
01:04:57,080 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 4: You can check that out at patreon dot com slash

1246
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 4: Gamesley Unemployed and I'll so we have free episodes that

1247
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 4: you can get for free.

1248
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 2: So check hell yeah, check that out. Yeah yeah, hell yeah,

1249
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 2: Well check all that out. I have a novel. It's

1250
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 2: called After the Revolution.

1251
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 1: Type it into whatever website you buy books from, or

1252
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: you know, like doctor Jerry Graham, grab a twelve year

1253
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 1: old a shotgun and a hunting knife and find your

1254
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: way into the nearest Barnes and Noble, and you know,

1255
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,760
Speaker 1: steal that book like your mom's court.

1256
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 2: I don't know where I'm going with this, Sophie. Do

1257
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 2: we have anything else? No, we're done, Okay, the episode's done.

1258
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 2: Perfect plugs Rice see behind The Bastards is a production

1259
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 2: of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media,

1260
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 2: visit our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1261
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,560
Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1262
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 2: your podcasts.