WEBVTT - Supreme Court Expands Power and FTC Sues Amazon 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:03.960 This is Bloomberg Law. 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.160 Are plaintiff's leries involved in a kind of competition in Congress? 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:10.280 Force a judicial code on the justices? 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:13.560 Interviews with prominent attorneys in Bloomberg Legal Experts. 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.639 My guest is former federal prosecutor Robert min Joining me 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:18.600 is Bloomberg Law reporter Kyle Janner. 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:22.000 And analysis of important legal issues, cases and headlines. 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:25.360 Is it unusual a grand jury like this to suspect 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:27.800 people aren't telling the truth? One of the first times 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:30.319 the Justice Department has called for the breakup of a 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:31.160 major company. 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:34.440 Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.479 Welcome to Bloomberg Law on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Madison Mills 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:45.159 in for June Grasso. Today we're talking about how a 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:49.640 conservative supermajority is affecting the Supreme Court and reshaping the 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.800 US as a result. Plus later in the show, three 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.440 men convicted of acting as Chinese agents in New York City. 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.480 We're going to talk about that and the latest congressional bill, 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.720 target AI aims to work towards regulation, but is it 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:06.400 gonna work. We're gonna discuss all of that and more 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.480 on the program, But first let's start with the highest 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:11.920 court in the land, because the Supreme Court has had 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.240 a strain of decisions that have tested the core principles 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:19.600 of American democracy, leaving American citizens skeptical about the Court 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.679 as a result. Here to discuss is Bloomberg New Supreme 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:25.640 Court reporter, Greg's store. Greg, thanks so much for being 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:29.040 with us as always, you've covered the Supreme Court for 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:31.720 a while. Talk to me about what you would say 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:36.200 is the single biggest differentiating factor of this court versus 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:37.680 the other Supreme courts. 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:39.720 That you've covered, well, Madison, it starts with that six 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:42.319 's three conservative majority that you mentioned, because that's what 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:44.280 lets them do all the other things. And what we've 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.320 seen as a court that has been pretty aggressive in 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.520 asserting its own powers, sometimes taking them away from other branches, 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:58.760 and really reshaping American law without seemingly worrying too much 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:00.320 about what the public reacts. 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:04.840 Is And talk to me about that public reaction. How 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:07.360 big of a shift would you say you've seen in 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.480 terms of the public perception of the Supreme Court. 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:14.400 Yeah, the Court's public standing is at or near record lows, 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:18.600 and that is driven primarily by really low approval ratings 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:24.079 among Democrats and liberals, you know, it's what's causing that. 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.800 You know, the polls don't necessarily show that, but certainly 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:31.040 all these big divisive decisions, the abortion decision being the 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:35.400 biggest one last year, but also all these ethics controversies 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.760 that we've had floating around. We've seen the Court's approval 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:43.240 numbers dip since the revelations about Clarence Thomas a few 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:45.400 months ago, and now, of course we're seeing some new 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:46.880 ones involving Justice sam Alito. 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.639 Do we know which of those two is having more 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.120 of an impact in terms of public perception. Is it 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:57.840 the sentiment surrounding the decisions of the court or the 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:02.799 personal ethics violations and allegations about those violations of individuals 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:04.880 on the court that's driving public perception. 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:09.600 It's really hard to say, you know, if I'm guessing, 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:11.200 and I'll just say this is a guest, just kind 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:13.680 of based on looking at the numbers and when they shift, 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:19.200 it's roughly equal parts both. Certainly, there are people who 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:23.280 are already predisposed to be skeptical of the Court and 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.800 what it's doing. And so maybe when somebody who doesn't 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.840 like the Court's abortion decision then reads about luxury vacations 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.640 taken by Clarence Thomas. That's all the more reason for 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:33.800 them to say, I don't approve of what the Court 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.760 is doing. So in some ways the two issues sort of, 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:39.840 you know, overlap with one with one another and kind 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:40.840 of build on one another. 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:44.360 Well, also, we talked earlier, and as you said, it's 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.200 this six ' three division of a conservative majority in 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.960 the Court, but you know it's not technically supposed to 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:58.000 be a political body, as you know very well, are 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:02.520 we seeing that politicization of the Supreme Court getting more 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:04.440 and more intense as the years go. 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:07.839 On, Yeah, very much so. And depending on which side 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:09.960 you talked to, will start at a different point in 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.520 describing how we got here, but certainly where we ended 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.799 up is the six most conservative justices on the Court 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:20.120 are all Republican appointees. The three most liberal are all 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.760 Democratic appointees. If there's another vacancy that comes up, nobody 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:28.760 will expect Joe Biden to nominate somebody who's anything other 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:33.280 than a liberal justice. And that's a dynamic we didn't 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:37.720 used to have Back twenty years ago, there were Republican 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:41.360 appointed justices whom we would describe as liberals because they 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.680 turn out not to be exactly what the Republican Party 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.920 was expecting when they were nominated, and going a little 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:51.400 farther back, you could find Democratic appointed justices who were 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.680 conservative on at least some issues, and that phenomenon just 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:55.800 doesn't exist anymore. 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.719 So, given that, are we expecting or do you anticipate 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.960 sort of changes to come in terms of how the 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:08.560 makeup of the court is decided and just kind of 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.320 the you know, tradition of the court in general. Do 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:14.680 you see any changes to that happening. 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.640 It's really hard to see how we as a society 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:22.640 get out of this particular box we're in. You know, 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.839 we've you know, essentially now in a world where you know, 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:30.680 Republicans are saying, for example, if if there's another vacancy 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:33.479 when Joe Biden is president, if they are able to 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:38.039 block confirmation in the in the Senate, they will do that. 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:41.839 You know, Democrats of course have talked about adding seats 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.840 to the court, but no indication there is the kind 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.440 of political will you would need to make that happen. 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.200 And some of these justices, you know, of course, they 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.720 have life tenures. So you know, the justices appointed by 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:59.839 Donald Trump are all you know well south of sixty 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:01.880 and conserve for several more decades. 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.160 Well, Greg, one thing that you also talk about in 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.080 your story, which folks can find on Bloomberg dot com 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.560 and on the terminal of course, about the aggressive Supreme 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.440 Court reshaping the US is just the kind of growth 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.320 of the power of the Supreme Court. Are there any 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:20.320 decisions that the Court has made that you can talk 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.400 to us about that have extended and expanded that power. 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.520 Yeah. The easiest place to think about this with with 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:32.040 regard to is that phenomenon is regarding the EPA. So 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.599 a series of decisions we have seen. The Court last 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:40.159 year restricted the EPA's authority over climate change in terms 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.919 of regulating emissions coming out of power plants. This term, 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:48.560 the Court sharply curtailed the EPA's authority over to protect 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.760 wetlands and took potentially tens of millions of wetlands out 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:56.479 of out of the scope of the Clean Water Act. 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.080 And then next term the Court has a case that's 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:01.640 a little more kind in the legal weeds, but is 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.640 really important that they're considering overturning a precedent that has 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:10.160 given agencies a certain amount of leeway when they interpret 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.720 statutes and you know all told what that means is 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.720 the agencies are able to do less than they were 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.240 able to, and the Supreme Court now is more the 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:25.800 final arbiter of what the agencies can and cannot do well. 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:29.080 And speaking of that power as well, it just feels 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.040 like there's we're kind of in a different era and 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:34.680 you talk about this in the story than we were 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.920 when the Supreme Court was originated. You know, I think 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.760 about the use of quill pens in the courtroom, for example, 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.440 do you see any of those sort of I don't 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.680 want to say smaller, but those little traditions changing over 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.000 time to kind of at least indicate to the public 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:57.880 that there is some evolution happening with the Supreme Court. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.840 Well, this is a court that is very resistant to 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.560 changing its long standing practices. Now one thing that has 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.320 changed is, you know, arguments, which used to be it 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:09.840 used to be the only people who could hear the 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.800 arguments were the few hundred people who could pack into 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.520 the courtroom. Now they live stream the arguments and that 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.640 has you know, provided a certain amount of transparency now 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.200 that they were sort of forced into that because of 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.480 the realities of the pandemic when they were holding arguments 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.520 by phone. But they're still resisting other things that could 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:33.040 make the court more transparent, for example, cameras in the courtroom. 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:37.319 No indication that they're anywhere close to allowing that. 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.719 So what are the big questions that the Court is 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.280 going to be answering this cycle that you can let 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:43.720 us in on. 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.120 Yes, there are. There are several very big cases the 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.120 Court's going to be deciding in the next week and 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:54.000 a half or so. Perhaps the biggest one is one 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.120 that could abolish the use of race in college admissions. 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.440 The Court's being asked to overturn a couple precedents that 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:02.800 that say universities can do that for the sake of 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:07.720 achieving campus to diversity. The Court is also considering striking 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:14.240 down President Biden's student loan release policy, which would forgive 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:18.080 at least in part, loans held by some forty million people. 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.480 There's a big case involving the intersection of free speech 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.800 rights and LGBTQ rights. There's a very big case involving 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.160 who gets to set the rules for federal elections. So 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:30.839 it's going to be a very busy next week and 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:32.400 a half and it will tell us a lot more 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:36.800 about whether the Court wants to continue being as aggressive 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:38.520 in the use of its powers as it has been 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:39.080 in the past. 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:41.839 And really quickly here, Greg, what's next when it comes 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:45.079 to the ethics questions of some of the Supreme Court justices. 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:49.640 Well, we had this new story from Republica about Justice Alito, 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:51.959 and there's going to be a lot of fallout from that. 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:56.880 They the report is that he took a fishing vacation 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:00.360 with somebody who eventually had business before the Court. Didn't 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:02.920 disclose that. There's give me a lot more talk about 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.800 trying to impose a code of conduct on the Supreme Court. 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.120 All right, Greg, Well, thank you so much as always 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.880 for joining us to break down all things the Supreme 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.480 Court in the United States. That was Greg's store Bloomberg 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:18.000 News reporter joining us from Washington as always to talk 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.080 about the Supreme Court. Really important coverage from him and 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.840 the rest of our DC team about the decisions to 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.600 come from the Supreme Court. As he was mentioning there, 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.120 we've got student loans on the docket, affirmative actions, so 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:32.760 a lot of really big questions that are going to 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.559 be shaping the future of democracy in the US, and 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.440 a lot of other factors there so really important to watch. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:41.960 Coming up, we're going to talk about the future of 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:43.720 AI regulation in DC. 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:45.120 That's next. 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.320 I'm Madison Mills in for June Grasso on Bloomberg Law 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.040 this week, and this is Bloomberg. 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:08.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.040 We're going to move from Washington up here to New 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:17.120 York City because a retired NYPD sergeant and two others 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:21.199 were convicted as agents of China. Those three men were 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.600 also pressuring dissidents to return to China from the US 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.480 as well. So here to discuss all of the details 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.360 of this is Bloomberg News reporter Patricia Hurtado joining us 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.280 by phone. Patricia, thank you so much for coming on 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.160 the show. Just give me the lowdown here for those 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.240 who haven't been familiar with this story. 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:40.000 What do we need to know? 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:44.520 Well, at Brooklyn federal jury heard a three week trial 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.040 and deliberated for two days in a case that accused 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:53.560 a retired NYPD police sergeant and two other men with 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:57.480 acting as a legal agents of the Chinese government to 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.880 pressure dissidents to return to China. 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:03.360 And what does this mean for those three men in 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:05.440 terms of what's next for them? What happens? 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:10.280 Well, they all three faced substantial prison time. One of them, 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:15.360 the former cop, faces at least twenty years and possible 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:20.280 the twenty year prison term substantial time for anybody. And 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.920 this was the first case to go to trial brought 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.880 by the US government making these allegations, which are pretty 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.840 serious if you think about it. It's that the Chinese 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.800 government sent operatives or had operatives acting on their behalf 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:39.760 to pressure and induce former Chinese nationals who moved to 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.360 the US and show up on their doorsteps and spy 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:42.800 on them. 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.040 That's yeah, that's really interesting. Do we know any of 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:50.160 the details of what that operation sort of looked like 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.040 and anything else you can tell us about what would 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:53.720 go on with that. 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:59.040 Well, the government has brought several cases and the Eastern 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:03.280 District of New York, which includes neighborhoods include you know, 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.760 Chinatowns in both Brooklyn Sunset Park as well as in 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:13.319 Fleshing Queens. They have brought other cases involving activity they 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:17.720 allege has been you know, people acting on behalf of 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:22.360 the Chinese government, including enslaving people to build and do 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:27.000 work on a house that was owned by an estate 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.680 that was owned by the Chinese government. But this case 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:35.400 basically alleges that they people were being monitored. This former 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:39.280 police sergeant was accused and the jury found that he 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:43.440 access law enforcement databases to find out information about where 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:47.080 these people lived and would show up and track their cars. 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:51.080 And these people were getting messages and letters in their 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:55.960 mail basically threatening them. So you know, the idea that 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.000 there's this big brother is watching all the way from 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.760 China is quite shocking to some some people, of course. 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:03.040 Yeah. 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:07.600 And this was called Operation fox Hunt by the Chinese government, 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:08.240 is that correct? 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:13.520 Yes, yes, And it was basically the US government alleges 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:17.440 that this with this initiative you know, hatched by the 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:22.520 Chinese Ministry of Public Security, so they were basically they're 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:28.680 also accused of even establishing a police and the legal 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:34.880 police station in New York to basically, uh, you know, 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.960 monitor people and and spy on them. And that was 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:44.560 according to direct case that was just filed in April. So, 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.120 I mean, the allegations that these people were even hired 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:54.120 a former cop who's not Asian to use his access 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:58.200 to law enforcement databases, it's shocking, you know that. 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.560 Right, And that's former cop that's Michael McMahon. 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:03.920 Correct, that's correct, that's correct. 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:08.160 So to what extent is this news that we're talking about, 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.680 Michael McMahon and the two other men convicted as agents 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.360 of China? How connected, if at all, is that to 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.920 the secret police station in New York City that others 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.000 were arrested Regarding. 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.200 Well, that case, it's an out growth. It's also brought 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:27.960 by several prosecutors in Brooklyn, and that case is basically 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.920 an iteration of the similar activity. If you want to 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:35.920 think about it, it's more possibly egregious activity, right, I 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:37.840 don't know which ones do you think is worse? Having 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:43.040 a private secret police station in Chinatown in Lower Manhattan 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:48.480 or having people travel around and show up on doorsteps. 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:52.440 The testimony in this case, this most recent case that 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:54.440 just got made, was they were showing up at the 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:58.480 doorstep of this man, his wife and his daughter in 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:00.960 New Jersey and showing up in the doorstep, and she 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.240 was getting their family was getting mail, and at one point, 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.160 one of the victims testify they got a letter that 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:10.600 was basically suggesting that they would be better off committing 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:12.920 suicide than staying in the US. 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.960 Oh my gosh, yeah, and talk to me about the victims, 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.080 then did they go to the police and did they 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.440 feel comfortable doing that? How did how did they kind 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:23.160 of come forward? 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:27.400 The evidence did so that even China caused an inner 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:32.000 Pole read notice to be filed with the International Police 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:36.800 Group that said complained about on behalf of China that 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.280 these three people were wanted by China. So if you 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.440 can imagine that your inner pol is looking for you, 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.720 but it's all cooked up, that's wild, you know, to 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:56.120 think eventually these the victims were reached, reached the law enforcement, 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.880 the allegations reached law enforcement, and there's been a couple 0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:02.120 of cases you know, that have been brought by the 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.760 US government under the Trump started under the Trump ad 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:11.240 administration called the China Initiative, which is basically also brought 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:17.440 cases including alleging that the Chinese telecommunications giant called Huawei 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:23.200 Technologies was also spying, but that was corporate espionage basically. 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.800 So you know, it seems like all kinds of initiative. 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.800 Let's not just go after the Chinese people. We believe 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:33.040 our dissidents in the US running from controversy or is 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.480 trying to escape controversy or oppression in China, but also 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.520 let's operate in the US and spy on American technology. 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.400 So there's two cases that were brought, one of them 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:45.679 in Seattle and one of them in Federal court in 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:49.119 Brooklyn that's also pending as part of this China initiative. 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.960 So you know, it's some of the cases have been 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:54.760 very have been unsuccessful, and the US has had to 0:17:54.840 --> 0:18:01.119 drop them. But you know, there's just seems like with 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:05.000 the current situation of the status of the US China relations, 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.879 which are chili you know, it has been frosty in 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:13.359 the past, and certainly the China Initiative was an outgrowth 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:17.560 of the Trump administrations that China was not to be trusted, right. 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.480 Well, you mentioned kind of the context here, and it's 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.960 so important to note this is coming after you know, 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:28.560 Blincoln has just been in Beijing and had a surprise 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:32.640 meeting with Chinese President Shiji Pain thirty five minute meeting 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.000 towards the end of his two day visit there, and 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:39.639 Chinese officials sort of blasting the US after that meeting, 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.480 kind of talking about the US tampering with its political 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:47.720 promises on Taiwan again after that meeting, So that context 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:48.159 is important. 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:49.920 And then of course from the Bloomberg side of things. 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.040 What we cover is the importance of the business impact 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.840 when it comes to things like semiconductors and the chips 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.600 race and the Chips war. Really, so that context is 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.560 just uh making these making these interactions between the US 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.879 and China even even more Chile as you mentioned, Patricia. 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.120 And you know, the one thing you can say is 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:13.400 that while this initiative was underway, there were a lot 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.000 of cases brought. And I think many of our readers 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.720 would remember that Menglan Huts she was the CFO of Huawei. 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.160 She's arrested at the request of the US on charges 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:28.320 in Vancouver, Canada, and she fought the case vehemently from 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.360 from the and was a Brooklyn federal case. So while 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.479 the case against the company still pending, she was allowed 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:38.080 to go home after in a plea deal. But in 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.320 meanwhile the China Initiative brought, and I should say the 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:46.920 China Initiative which was pretty you know, uh hard iron 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:51.440 fisted by the Trump administration. The DOJ now has scrapped 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:56.280 the China Initiative. Under the Biden administration, many people felt 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.399 that it was a little too hard, hard nosed on it. 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:03.040 So, yeah, lots to cover there. Patricia, thank you so 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:04.800 much for joining us and talking. 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:06.040 It all through. We really appreciate it. 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.920 That was Patricia Hurtado, our Bloomberg News reporter on this story. 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.160 Next up, we're talking AI regulations. To stick around. I'm 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.320 Madison Mills and this is Bloomberg. 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:26.840 You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.080 It wouldn't be a Bloomberg show without us talking about 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.480 artificial intelligence, and of course, with all the power of AI, 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:37.880 you could say that comes with great responsibility. That's one 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.840 reason we're hearing and seeing a lot of regulation questions 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.800 popping up in Congress to try and hedge against any 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:47.119 issues to come with AI. So here to discuss this 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:50.919 with us is Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Matthew Schuttenhelm. Thank you 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:52.959 so much for being with us. Matt really appreciate it. 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.240 I'm going to take a page out of Jay Powell's 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.760 book from his comments in Congress today. He talked about 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.440 how if you drive car, if you're driving somewhere, you 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:04.399 might start off really fast and slow down a little 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:06.679 bit once you're getting closer to your destination. 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:07.880 So not a big speeder. 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.800 J Powell when it comes to AI regulation, Are we 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:14.080 just leaving the house for the road trip or are 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.000 we Are we getting close to the destination? 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:16.520 Yeah? 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:18.520 I think we are. We're not even out of the 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:22.480 house yet. Yeah, yeah, we're starting to get ready. And 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.080 and you know, it's this is such a tough thing 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:29.040 for Congress to take on because it's it's so new, 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:34.000 and it's so technical, and and then it then once 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:36.520 you know, down the road, it starts to become more political. 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:41.040 So Congress has struggled so much to regulate big tech, 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:45.280 and now it has this whole new concept of this 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:47.960 whole new big thing that it wants to go after, 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:52.000 but it has very little concept right now of one 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:56.560 the technology and to the problems that might come up. 0:21:56.680 --> 0:22:01.399 So so fashioning a regulatory regime to address that is 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.000 is just a daunting problem for for Congress. 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:05.960 And you mentioned big tech. 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:11.000 How unique is it that AI executives and officials, the 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.639 big movers in AI are kind of on board to 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.560 work with Congress as compared with the big tech thing. 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:17.000 That we saw. 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:19.960 Yeah, I mean, they've definitely been a lot of resistance 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:24.040 from big tech in terms of you know, resisting data 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:26.840 privacy regulation. But you've also seen like companies like like 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:31.600 Meta Facebook being you know, supportive of at least publicly, 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.760 and so that that we've often seen that distinction said okay, 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:38.280 regulate us, give us something, and even Congress couldn't, couldn't 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:41.280 do that. You're seeing that here as well, where where 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:43.760 the companies are are are coming in and saying, look, 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:47.480 we want to support, you know, a reasonable approach to 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:51.879 using this technology. You as lawmakers should impose something reasonable. 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:56.920 But then I think in behind the scenes, it's it's 0:22:56.920 --> 0:22:59.880 often a different story when when when regulators are starting 0:22:59.920 --> 0:23:03.199 to put together sort of aggressive regulation. I think you 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:08.080 see a different tone from the companies as that plays out. 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.520 So talk to me about what some of the proposed 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:13.399 legislation right now is looking like. 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:16.679 Yeah, so it's very early days right now, So I 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:21.040 think so far we've seen I think two bipartisan bills 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:24.680 introduced since the first hearing in the Senate last month, 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:29.200