WEBVTT - Exchanging Exchanges at Exchange 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:08.799 Welcome a Trillian's I'm Joel Webber and I'm Eric Balcunas. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:11.840 Eric. 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.760 If there's one state that you'd like to go to 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:21.000 other than Pennsylvania and New York, it would be Florida, Florida. 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.799 I'm a Florida Manngel, I really am. I'm destined to 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:24.239 live there. 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.479 And you went to a trade show, which is a 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.360 thing we've done before and we will probably do again. 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:32.000 What was the trade show. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:37.680 Exchange ETFs, which was formerly called Inside ETFs, but this 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.440 they switched the names. Inside ETF still exist, but that's 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:42.080 run by a different company, but the people who starred 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:47.320 inside the ETFs left started a new conference called Exchange. 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:49.880 At the end of the day, this is the one. 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:52.040 This is the comic con of ETFs. This is the 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:53.280 one I go to all year. This is one to 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:55.600 bring my whole team to Joel, we spend the money. 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.080 I've got to argue up to my managers. This is 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.840 worth the money. We all go. Everyone's there. It's intense. 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.920 It's fifteen hours of networking by eight nine o'clock. I 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.520 am so ready to isolate and watch like a TNT movie. 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:11.200 You know, I am fried. I have nothing left and 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:12.759 then you wake up and do it all over again. 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.640 So again, we sent you with a recorder so that 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:22.160 at least some of your interactions we could, you know, 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:24.360 end up with some tape that we could listen to 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.039 some takeaways and talk about some trends and maybe get 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.320 some insights and learn about a few new products. 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:32.800 Yeah, this is great, you know, Magnus gave me this 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:34.600 little recorder. I mean, I could use my phone, but 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.000 the recorders better. I just whip it out. I'm like, hey, 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:39.880 can I record you? And most people there are there 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:42.040 to talk and get attention, so it's not that hard. 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.760 There's only one person I asked to record that declined. 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:47.640 I won't say who it was, but they're lost, Joel. 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:57.680 This time on trillions exchanges at exchange about exchange traded funds. Okay, Eric, 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:00.440 We got about a dozen or so people that you 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:04.320 spoke with, tons of different products and themes. Who are 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:05.360 going to start off with you? 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.520 Start off with Ali Doyle, who is head of ATP 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:12.560 Listings at NASDAC. This is a perfect conference for her 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.359 because you know, when you have a bunch of ETF fishers, 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:18.679 what they want is advisors to sell to and to 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.440 market to and the media, and so they're always looking 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:23.400 for a visor by advisors getting for almost no money. 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.560 It's like they're like Ladies night, they're the ladies. In 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.720 Ali's case, the issuers are her clients. So this is 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:32.200 perfect for her. So I thought we'd start with her, 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:34.400 and I just sort of got a feel for what 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:38.480 she's there for and you know what kind of interactions 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.200 she's having Exchange. Just to give you a quick feel 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.519 for like somebody working the conference. 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.480 The Exchange conference really is our super bowl for ATF listings. 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:48.760 You know, for us, it's a great opportunity at the 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.079 beginning of the year to not just interact with our 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:54.000 clients issuers that are already listing on NASDAK, but really 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.320 get to know the broader issuer community, you know, build 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:58.640 some new relationships and also with the market makers. You know, 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:00.960 we'll work a lot with the trading community, and it's 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:03.120 a great opportunity to build those relationships here at the 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:03.920 conference as well. 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:06.800 And what's your pitch to them versus listing on like 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:08.560 Nicey or another exchange. 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:10.720 Yeah, you know, every exchange sort of has their different 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.280 take and different branding. Right now, ZECH is very aligned 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.160 with innovative new products, you know, a lot of tech, 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:18.760 you know, creativity that we're bringing to the table. So 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.240 for us, you know, we really think about being a 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:23.880 full extension of our issuers team really from pre to 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:26.120 post launch. A lot of that is around marketing how 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.639 we can help issuers promote their products and a lot 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:30.760 of the liquidity you know, that comes from training on 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.840 Nasdak Nazak is the largest equity US equity venue, and 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:36.160 so we take a lot of pride in that and 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:38.320 making sure issuers know that's you know, that's who they're 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:40.280 working with as their listing exchange. 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.520 So Joel you can see, obviously perfect for her talking 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.280 to marketers. And the other reason I talked to Ali 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.440 is I never met her before, even though she runs 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:51.920 in the same circles. But we were paired together for 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.680 this game show that Todd Rosenbluth put together inspired by 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:57.880 our episode about I don't know three or four months 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.440 ago where we had the trivia game. They had an 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:02.800 on stage game show and Ali and I were partners. 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:03.800 How'd you guys do? 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:09.120 We kicked but we won legit. However, we were so 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.440 in the lead that the end they felt bad and 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:13.960 they said, Okay, this next question is worth ten was 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.840 the last question, just so the people who were like 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:19.880 below could come up and win, and to be nice, 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:21.680 we didn't answer. We let them answer it, and they 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:26.480 won in this sort of weird socialist way. But straight up, 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:28.839 we got the most answers and she was on the ball, 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.400 and I think we should do another game show episode 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:33.840 for on this with people from the industry like her. 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:34.400 It was fun. 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.360 I like the sound of all of that. We also 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:39.719 had a kind of a weird ending of our tribute. 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.320 I said, okay, so who are we listening to next? 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.480 Jeremy Senderwick's who is a lawyer for Vetter Price. One 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.760 of the biggest issues at the conference was this idea 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.880 that now that the Vanguard patent is expired, all mutual 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.360 funds can now add an ETF share class to their 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.840 mutual fund. Bolt it right on. This is a big deal. 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:06.279 This could be thousands of ETF share classes on mutual funds. 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.400 I can't overstate it. Katie Grayfield did a whole story 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:11.960 on it based on her time at the exchange. So 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:14.760 I asked Jeremy, who's a lawyer works with the SEC 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:19.120 you know about whether this will happen this year? Sooner 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:22.040 or later, and what the hurdles are because this is 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:24.400 probably after the Bitcoin, this is probably the next big 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:25.640 issue for the ETF industry. 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:28.920 Well, it's very tough to say because there have been 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:31.680 a number of applications filed, but there's been no public 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:35.520 movement on it. The SEC has put the word out 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:39.840 to the industry that they won't be formal movement on 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:44.120 these applications until the swing pricing proposal is settled in 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:45.000 one way or the other. 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:46.800 What's the swing pricing proposal. 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.440 It's just about how navs are struck for fixed income 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:53.839 mutual funds. I won't go into details, but I don't either. 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.479 They can work it out, it's not it's something that 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.520 can be worked out. And especially you have Fidelity DFA. 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.960 There was some other big, gigantic company that also Morgan Stanley. 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:08.960 Those are powerhouse asset managers and the ICI, they're all 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.960 behind this. So I have faith that these big companies 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:13.480 are going to be able to work it out with 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.000 the SEC, and in a year or so we'll have 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.080 ETF share classes, which you know, again are going to 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:21.080 be major. You know, our big theme this year for 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.360 our outlook was the many roads to ETF It's one 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:26.400 thing to launch a clone, it's another thing to convert 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:27.840 your mutual fund. And now I have a third way, 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:36.760 which is a share class. Speaking of bitcoin, let's go 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:38.719 into the bitcoin. I got a couple interviews lined up 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:39.000 for that. 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:43.040 This was how much bitcoin was there at the conference. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:44.680 It was a big deal. It was a lot of 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:45.000 the buzz. 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:46.440 It's also in Miami. 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:49.479 It is in Miami, right, Yeah, So a couple things. First, 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.960 I moderated the crypto panel, which I think, according to 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:55.160 all the articles on it was the most attended. They 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.200 had this thing called Silent Disco where you put the 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.600 headphones on. They ran a headphones stroll. We sold the 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:02.440 place out, and this is like early in the morning, 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:05.000 you know, when everybody's hungover and stuff and doing just 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:06.800 back from yoga on the beach and all that stuff. 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.600 We sold it out. It was one of the better sessions, 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.840 I thought. And then Gray Scale had the huge booth. 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.600 They kind of took all the attention with this massive booth. 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:19.000 And then they had a huge drone show at the 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.480 end of the last night where they had drones making 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:25.760 the bitcoin sign and the blockchain. And so definitely, if 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.120 I ten years from now, when I think back on 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.040 all these conferences, to me, this will be the bitcoin 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:31.840 ETF one. 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:34.360 Okay, so who's the first guest to talk about bitcoin? 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:36.960 Well, we should open with the big dog, Blackrock. So 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:38.880 we got Jay Jacobs, who's us head of Thematics and 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:43.480 Active Equity. This is the guy who's out there marketing ibit, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:45.960 which is black Rocks Bitcoin ETF, which is already i 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.920 think like six seven billion dollars again smashing records for 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:52.520 a ETF that's six weeks old. So I have two 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.920 clips for him. The first is on basically why black 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:56.720 Rock did this. This is a little out of character. 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:58.640 They had never filed in previous and we just sort 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:00.600 of hous it going. So that's the clip the first one. 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:03.760 It's been incredibly exciting. I think going into this launch, 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:05.800 we knew there would be a lot of interest. We 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.200 heard from clients over several years that they were looking 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.120 at a bitcoin ETF as really being kind of the 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:14.240 silver bullet for getting really you know, high quality, efficient, 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.520 easy access to bitcoin, and so a lot of our 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.200 expectations have been met so far. I think what's interesting 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:22.240 is who's buying it, And I think early on, when 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:24.480 you see this amount of money coming into new ETF. 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.120 It's a lot of people who already developed an investment 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.440 thesis around bitcoin. These are people who maybe already decided 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:32.800 they wanted exposure, but weren't happy with how they were 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.400 getting the exposure, and the ETF is kind of that 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.360 great way to get precise exposure to bitcoin alongside stocks 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.160 and bonds in their portfolio. What we haven't seen yet 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.880 is people who are just starting that investment journey where 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.280 they have not previously really considered bitcoin because they couldn't 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.360 get exposure to it, and now they're learning about the asset, 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.480 going through the education, they're trying to understand how it 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:57.520 fits in a portfolio. And this is going to be 0:08:57.559 --> 0:08:59.880 a longer term process for a lot of investors who 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.000 are really kind of starting it, you know, in a 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.280 lot of ways, kind of their first day of understanding bitcoin. 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:06.640 And let's go over to the second clip, which is 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.560 selling to advisors. This is the big target market for bitcoin, 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.760 the boomers, just I mean, how do you position this 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:15.199 to an advisor in a. 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.440 Missouri One of the things we hear a lot from 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.679 advisors is that they have clients that already own bitcoin 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:23.360 and they are looking for a better way to get 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.319 exposure to it. Their clients either don't want to deal 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.120 with hot you know, cold storage, hot hot wallets, they 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.240 don't want to deal with you know, trading it a 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:32.960 on a crypto exchange, and so the ETF really solves 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:34.559 a lot of challenges for them. So frankly, a lot 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.679 of the conversations we've had, I've been around, my client 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:39.559 has exposure to this. They want a better way to 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:40.960 get exposure to it going forward. 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:46.360 So listen, Joel, you know, forget the society's going to collapse. 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.360 L Salvador uses it. This guy you could you could 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:54.040 talk to. This is the guy who's promoting bitcoin ETFs. 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:58.520 This is a Again, I can't overstate how they've taken 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.920 this sort of wild subculture sure and streamlined it into 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:02.760 a guy like. 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.400 Jay plugged and played it into a big ETF conference. 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:07.680 Well, but also just listen to the way he talks. 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.760 If you're in Missouri and you're conservative, you're managing client assets, 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.640 you would hear this person out, whereas a lot of 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:16.679 the stuff you hear from the bitcoin be scary. It 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.320 would just scare advisors off. So translating the bitcoin message 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:24.559 through the sort of prism of people like Jay and Blackrock. Again, 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.400 this is why we were so bullish. 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:30.280 Also also interesting that, as he points out, the people 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:34.079 who were familiar with this stuff already are the early adopters, 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.959 and there's so much more room for growth there when 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.800 you think about anybody who might entertain doing this and 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.920 come into the asset cold. All right, who's next? 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.720 The other The number two in the race is Fidelity. 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:47.960 They've taken in again, I think five to six billion. 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.679 Greg Friedman, who heads up all the ETFs. 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:53.360 First mover is important, but this is a big enough 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.560 category with so much anticipation that there's probably room for 0:10:57.559 --> 0:10:59.920 a few of us to actually be at the levels 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.880 that we are. But we're thrilled with the early returns 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.319 and is succeeded expectations. 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.360 And we saw that you added some to a model 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.920 in Canada. Your conservative allocation model for fidility had a 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:16.640 one percent crypto. Are we possibly going to see, you know, 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.600 Fidelity and others incorporate these into models. 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.000 I would anticipate. I don't know when. This is an 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.120 exciting asset class, no different than you know, fixed income 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:27.679 or equity. 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.640 So there you go, man. This is again Fidelity has 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.880 tons of advisors. Blackrock doesn't have an advisor network. They're 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.960 just an asset manager. But Fidelity has like advisors, like 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.320 a lot of our parents would use a Fidelity advisor. 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.240 And they've already put a one percent allocation in their 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.360 model in Canada. And this again speaks to the power 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.079 of how much Fidelity can just sort of bring assets 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.400 in just by telling all their advisors we're into this, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.480 you know, from the home office nucleus. So again, a 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:57.440 lot of this stuff is very powerful. 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.040 It's like this now for the thing, and suddenly it's 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:06.600 like institutional money is pouring into this. Yeah, okay, who's next? 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:07.680 Okay not bitcoin? 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:08.680 No, we got two more? 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.120 Oh jeez, more bitcoin. This really was the bitcoin cover. 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:14.120 Look, I'm trying to look. We're going to look back. 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.480 This was the bitcoin okay. Kathy Chrisky, one of my 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.400 favorit people in the industry, has a great personality. She's 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:23.319 the investo's commodity strategist, so they also have bitcoin etf now. 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:26.720 She's all into commodity. She's been on ETFIQ. She always 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:30.240 says the two w's Warren Weather good for commodities. And 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:34.480 her message on bitcoin was interesting because as a commodities person, 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.320 how much does she accept bitcoin or reject it? And 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.160 I asked her about the use case because all these 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.280 other commodities have a use case, even gold. Well, what's 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:44.920 bitcoin's use case for her? 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:47.559 It is a currency, right, even though it's not used 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.440 primarily as a currency, but it is a sort of 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.480 store of value. And that's where when people get like 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.600 they don't understand bitcoin, I said, let's go back to 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:56.240 digital gold. 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:56.520 Now. 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:00.160 When I first joined the bitcoin team, because bitcoin's a commodity, 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.280 I was frustrated by any analysis I saw about digital 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.840 gold and people saying like, oh, quarter of the gold 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:07.840 investors are gonna shift to bitcoin. 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:08.800 I was like, are you kidding? 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:10.600 Have you met a gold investor? You're gonna have to 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.200 pry that gold out of their dead hands, right, they 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:16.160 don't sell their gold. I was like, but now like 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.480 understanding that it is a store of value, right, and 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.720 especially the younger generation, they've been in this asset class 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.000 for so long and yet now they have a more 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:28.240 an easier access point with the ETF. But really, like, 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.640 I feel like it is like a currency. It is 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.960 a store of value like gold. It makes sense for investors, 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:38.400 but again, small allocation it's still volatile. But that's another 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.280 one of my preconceived notions. I think everyone's got wrong. 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.679 People think the volatility for bitcoin is over one hundred percent. 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:46.920 I was like, okay, yes, ten years ago it was 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.600 actually one hundred and twenty percent, but now it's forty 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.160 seven percent. And with natural gas becoming so volatile, I said, 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.400 most of the time, it's ninety percent now. So think 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.360 about that, Bitcoin is almost half the volatility of natural gas. 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:01.840 And I think the average investor has no idea about that. 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:05.720 So, yeah, it's it's getting it's calming down a little, Joel. 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:12.160 But listen the big takeaway here Fidelity, black Rock Investco. 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:14.960 We're talking trillions and assets. He's heard from three of 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.360 their top people, not to mention all the wholesalers. Again, 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.360 you got to consider this is an army of sales 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.920 going on. And again this is I think part of 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:29.120 what makes underestimating the ETF largely probably a mistake. 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.640 It is just wild to think about how much the 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.760 conversation has changed. Isn't it before the ETF to after 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:38.360 the ETF. 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:40.840 And of course their motive, I mean some it's hard 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.680 to tell you money on this. Yeah, are they really 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:45.640 orange pilled or they just revenue pilled. 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.000 It's hard to tell revenue pilled. Man like that. It's 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.680 bottom line, this is this is how this works. Okay, 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:52.760 who's the last bitcoin voice? And then never again? 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.480 Okay, now we have yeah we There was a guy 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.240 who was there, Frank Schaparro, who is director of Special 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:00.760 Reports and a host of the Scoop podcast from the Block. 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:03.920 So this is a bitcoin native guy. So he is 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:07.200 a bitcoiner, kind of crypto guy. I was curious how 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:11.160 he felt at the ETF conference and as sort of 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:12.760 a stranger in a strange land. 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:15.880 I mean, I've been kind of blown away at the 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.320 extent to which crypto has actually been taking seriously. Like 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.560 I've been to other financial conferences, whether it's market structure 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.400 of trading, and they make the FTX show because they 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.920 make the jokes about it being a ponzi. But I 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:31.000 think that it's carried a bit of bravatas at this 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:35.080 event that has surprised me, especially with Brayscale obviously having 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:37.560 like that sort of center booth, one of the more 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:42.520 impressive booths, and a very nice event last night. So 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:46.880 I think people are taking crypto seriously here. It's it's 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.560 not like in your face, Like it's not like the 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.800 most important conversation being you had, but it's definitely a 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:55.560 it's definitely something to talk about here. 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.560 What would you say the boomer factor is on a 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.760 scale of one, that's ten, honestly, not that boomer. 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:03.520 I'd put it out like a six and a half. 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:08.080 I mean, this is very other ATF community is very robust. 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.800 Yeah, look, because I get called a boomer in a 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.400 suit constantly on Twitter troll even though I feel like 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:15.119 I'm pretty. 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:19.560 Happy kind of are but yeah, I'm gen x. 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:21.800 We fought the boomers first, and now look at you. 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.680 Uh so six pointy five isn't bad. 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:28.680 But what's also interesting about this is like it just 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:30.880 speaks to what what you were kind of the before 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:36.840 and after thing. Right before there was so much uh concern, 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.200 and now it's now that it's gone institutional and you 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.960 see this. It's like even the folks that were hardcore 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.400 crypto can see a light. 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.520 Okay, next guest, Okay, let's go back to some vanilla. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:51.880 You got ready for the scoop of vanilla? After that? Yeah, 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.400 like we did the topics for the crazy stuff. We 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.480 did the m and ms and the chocolate fudge first. 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.280 Now we're going to the Yeah, let's go for Hollyframs 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.320 that Capital Group head of Global Product strategy and Development. 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.119 So hollywoods from black Rock joined Capital Group. I just 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.320 asked her about when you have an active fund which 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.560 they're growing, how hard is it to displace index funds 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.960 in the core. That is no small task, Torol Capital Group. 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:19.720 ETFs are definitely sitting at the core of client portfolios. 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:24.120 We're seeing really two flavors of investment. One, clients who 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:28.320 have model allocations appreciate the ETF vehicle, utilizing our funds 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.400 sitting at the core just as they would an index product. 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.760 And two we're really seeing clients come back to Capital 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.440 Group who maybe had moved toward the ETF vehicle, had 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.399 to move toward index management, and are now recognizing that 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:42.280 as they have increased choice, they're going to come back 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.359 and they're going to select that active management again. So 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:46.760 we're seeing flavors of both, but definitely at the core. 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:52.320 Okay, so active ongoing conversation about how that's sort of 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:56.200 been perhaps kind of the next dimension of where ETFs 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:57.000 can go and grow. 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.280 Yeah, and you know, Capitol Group had a little party 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.800 DFA had a that James and David went on the 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:07.080 active companies are spending more money at the conference. They're 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:12.080 making a splash. Definitely a change from several years ago. Again, 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.760 this all evolves. It was a smart beto, was was 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:16.680 a big thing a couple of years. Then it was ESG. 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:20.480 Active is one of the bigger themes and one of 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:25.320 the bigger sponsors. Next, speaking of active, so active passive. 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.159 That whole debate that we've had many times, it's like 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.760 back in the headlines, back in the headlines because David Einhorn, 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.680 who's a hedge fund manager pretty popular, said something about 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:35.240 how it was kind of like screwing up the market. 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.159 Also two barrier hilts, two barry red holts, although he 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.480 did say, look, you know it's our job to capitalize 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:43.560 on that inefficiency. But anyway, brought it back up. And 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:45.800 one of the people that I debate constantly on this 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.480 is Mike Green of Simplify, and so I got Mike there. 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:51.359 Mike and I had gone back and forth on Twitter 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.879 a little bit, little little debate going on, but I 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.520 like Mike and he's we disagree on this, but he's 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.320 always civil and he's nice. So I caught him and 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.520 I asked them for his elevator pitch on why this 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:03.840 matters to a rural person. 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:07.560 So the problem is unfortunately not an individual problem. It's 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.240 a societal problem. What we're actually doing is is we're 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.399 taking liquidity out of the market. You and I have 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.320 had discussions around how much cash, for example, as being 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.600 held at active funds versus passive funds. The holding of 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.639 cash creates option value, It creates the ability to generate 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.760 liquidity internally. It gives me the flexibility to meet a redemption. 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.560