1
00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you From how Supports

2
00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,800
Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline

3
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,360
Speaker 1: and I'm Kristen, and we're continuing our art Week, Art

4
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,440
Speaker 1: History Week, Art Her Story, Her Story, Yes, thank you,

5
00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,200
Speaker 1: Art her Story week by talking about a group of

6
00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:30,000
Speaker 1: lady sculpture says well, I guess that's redundant lady sculptors

7
00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,040
Speaker 1: or sculpture says called the White Memorian Flock. They themselves

8
00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,640
Speaker 1: did not pick this name. And honestly, you know, I'm

9
00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:42,080
Speaker 1: way more familiar with expatriot writers and painters who went

10
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,880
Speaker 1: to Italy and France in the nineteenth and early twentieth

11
00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,960
Speaker 1: centuries than I am with sculptors. And so when I

12
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,519
Speaker 1: saw a blog post this was at the end of

13
00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 1: Over at the Toast a few months ago by Lindsay

14
00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 1: Lynch about the White Marmorian Flock, I really had no idea,

15
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,440
Speaker 1: no idea what she was talking about. But it turns

16
00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,120
Speaker 1: out it's this amazing group of women who definitely deserve

17
00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,920
Speaker 1: our attention, especially during all his Story week, um, and

18
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,560
Speaker 1: especially because men of their time their contemporaries dismissed them

19
00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,039
Speaker 1: completely right off the bat. Yeah, and while we could

20
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,920
Speaker 1: have done an episode just focusing on women in sculpture

21
00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,480
Speaker 1: in general, and perhaps we'll circle back to that. We

22
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:30,280
Speaker 1: really wanted to spend time focused on this particular group

23
00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:35,720
Speaker 1: of women because it's such an incredible snapshot of not

24
00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,920
Speaker 1: only art at a time, but also women's position in society.

25
00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 1: What what it kind of took to be ambitious and

26
00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,120
Speaker 1: for these women, it took leaving the United States and

27
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,040
Speaker 1: going to Italy. So first off, Caroline, let's just answer

28
00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,000
Speaker 1: the question of what was this white Marmorian flock? And

29
00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,680
Speaker 1: should we point out what Marmorian means? Because here's the thing.

30
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to be really honest with our listeners for

31
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,280
Speaker 1: a moment, even though this is embarrassing. The entire time

32
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,360
Speaker 1: I was researching this up until this morning, I was

33
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,960
Speaker 1: reading it as Memorian and just assuming, like, oh, white

34
00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:20,960
Speaker 1: Memorian memories that they were talking about them having breasts. No, no,

35
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,400
Speaker 1: totally wrong word. Well, we're going to get into the

36
00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,000
Speaker 1: full story of where this name came from, so don't worry.

37
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 1: But basically Memorian means like like marble of marble, and

38
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,480
Speaker 1: once I read that definition, it made so much sense. Yeah,

39
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,840
Speaker 1: so this was a name that was given to a

40
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:44,880
Speaker 1: specific group of nineteenth century American expatriot ladies working in

41
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,120
Speaker 1: the neo classical style in Italy, mostly Florence, a little

42
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,160
Speaker 1: bit Rome. Um. But don't, yeah, don't get too excited

43
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,920
Speaker 1: about how unique and different the name is, because it

44
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,399
Speaker 1: was totally meant as a dismissive moniker. So first let's

45
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:04,640
Speaker 1: provide a little bit of general sculpture context. This is

46
00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:09,000
Speaker 1: coming from the met that talks about how America's first

47
00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,919
Speaker 1: acknowledged school of professional sculptures as they described it, got

48
00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 1: their start in Italy. And this was really starting in

49
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,639
Speaker 1: the late eighteen twenties and lasting throughout the nineteenth century,

50
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,240
Speaker 1: This pattern of aspiring sculptors heading to Italy, like you said,

51
00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,760
Speaker 1: mostly in Florence and Rome because there were tons of

52
00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,720
Speaker 1: marble quarries, there are lots of skilled and affordable craftsmen

53
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:39,200
Speaker 1: and carvers, as well as leading European sculpture mentors and

54
00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,960
Speaker 1: models who would pose nude I mean. And they were

55
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,960
Speaker 1: also going back to the birthplace of this neo classical art,

56
00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,840
Speaker 1: right yeah, and being the birthplace of this classical Greek

57
00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,120
Speaker 1: art that they were looking at. There was plenty of

58
00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,880
Speaker 1: all Renaissance art contemporary are all around them that could

59
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,920
Speaker 1: help provide inspiration and ideas for what they themselves wanted

60
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,920
Speaker 1: to do. But by the mid eighteen seventies, the popularity

61
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 1: of this particular American neo classical sculpture movement had started

62
00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,240
Speaker 1: to wane. But that doesn't mean that, you know, they

63
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,600
Speaker 1: just gave up and came home. There were definitely a

64
00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,960
Speaker 1: huge number of artists still in Italy. But we are

65
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,559
Speaker 1: talking about those sculptures is specifically today. Yeah, that first

66
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:27,320
Speaker 1: quote unquote school of women's sculptures arose around this woman,

67
00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,440
Speaker 1: Harriet Good Hugh Hosmer, and they took advantage of the

68
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,520
Speaker 1: same great art and sculpture environment in Italy. And it's

69
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,200
Speaker 1: also worth noting too that these women couldn't just you know,

70
00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,440
Speaker 1: trot down to the Metropolitan Museum of Art and gaze

71
00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,000
Speaker 1: it some sculptures to get inspiration because those museums didn't

72
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,320
Speaker 1: exist before the nineteenth century. So they were like, well,

73
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,240
Speaker 1: we gotta pack up and make it to Italy somehow,

74
00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,280
Speaker 1: and following the footsteps of Harriet Right and some of

75
00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:01,160
Speaker 1: these women include Edmonia Lewis, Emma Stebbens, Louise Land and Whitney,

76
00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,760
Speaker 1: Margaret Foley, Florence Freeman, and Vinny Reem. And while of

77
00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,880
Speaker 1: course there were more women both in sculpture and painting. Uh,

78
00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 1: these are some of the big names that come up

79
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,040
Speaker 1: again and again when you talk about this specific group

80
00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,040
Speaker 1: of women and why they're neat. And this is pointed

81
00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,000
Speaker 1: out by Lindsay lynch Over in her post at the Toast.

82
00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,320
Speaker 1: She wrote, in an age where taking up drawing was

83
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,719
Speaker 1: considered an admirable means to charm your way into marriage,

84
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 1: these women ran off to Rome and created big gas

85
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,680
Speaker 1: sculptures with their hands, a chisel and a literal ton

86
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,160
Speaker 1: of marble. Yeah. And then that also points out that

87
00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,520
Speaker 1: they quote broke new ground through their independent lifestyles and

88
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,680
Speaker 1: an emphasis on career over marriage and motherhood. And so,

89
00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,400
Speaker 1: since we don't have time in this podcast to discuss

90
00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,680
Speaker 1: in detail every single one of those artists that you

91
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,920
Speaker 1: just mentioned, Caroline, we're going to really focus on three

92
00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 1: of those names, Harriet Hosmer and Monia Lewis and Vinny Reem.

93
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,920
Speaker 1: And to kick things off, we got to talk about

94
00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,920
Speaker 1: Harriet because out of all of these women, she was

95
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,240
Speaker 1: the most accomplished and the most famous at the time. Yeah,

96
00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,400
Speaker 1: So Harriet arrives in Italy in eighteen fifty two, and

97
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,640
Speaker 1: three years later she travels to Rome to study with

98
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,599
Speaker 1: English sculptor John Gibson. And she really became one of

99
00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:22,120
Speaker 1: the most important American Neo classical sculptures period, not just

100
00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,240
Speaker 1: a woman sculptor. And she was central to this whole

101
00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 1: white memorian flock that a misogynist author would talk about later.

102
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,480
Speaker 1: And we'll get to we'll get to that guy later.

103
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,400
Speaker 1: But you know, she sounds pretty freaking cool. At least

104
00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,599
Speaker 1: according to a letter that Elizabeth Barrett Browning wrote in

105
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,679
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty four, she said, I should mention too, miss Hosmer,

106
00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,400
Speaker 1: the young American sculptures who was a great pet of

107
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,960
Speaker 1: mine and Robert's, and who emancipates the eccentric life of

108
00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,920
Speaker 1: a perfectly quote emancipated female from all shadow of blame

109
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,839
Speaker 1: by the purity of hers. She lives here all alone

110
00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,880
Speaker 1: at twenty two dines and breakfast at the cafe, is

111
00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,000
Speaker 1: precisely as a young man would, works from six o'clock

112
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,279
Speaker 1: in the morning till night, as a great artist must,

113
00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,599
Speaker 1: and this with an absence of pretension and simplicity of

114
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,800
Speaker 1: manners which accord rather with the childish dimples in her

115
00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,160
Speaker 1: rosy cheeks than with her broad forehead and high aims.

116
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,040
Speaker 1: So I mean, I love hearing that that she was

117
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,840
Speaker 1: such a great character that people considered her dedicated to

118
00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,160
Speaker 1: her art despite or because of her gender. It didn't matter.

119
00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 1: She was in there doing what she wanted to do. Yeah,

120
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 1: there is this one photograph of her standing next to

121
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,880
Speaker 1: She's up on a platform standing next to this massive,

122
00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 1: larger than life sculpture that she's working on, and she's

123
00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,520
Speaker 1: so tiny next to it. And of course she's wearing

124
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,360
Speaker 1: you know, traditional nineteenth century women's dress. She's in a

125
00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,800
Speaker 1: dress and with her hair all done up and everything.

126
00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,440
Speaker 1: But there she is standing next to this massive sculpture,

127
00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,840
Speaker 1: which note she did not sculpture that giant thing by hand.

128
00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,840
Speaker 1: That's where these at aillion uh craftsmen would come in.

129
00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,120
Speaker 1: She would make the model, and this was what all

130
00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,320
Speaker 1: the sculptures would be doing. You make the model and

131
00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,240
Speaker 1: then you hand it off to a massive team who

132
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,320
Speaker 1: would then do the do the work of Ye, she's

133
00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,400
Speaker 1: ling it out. Well, some of this work that she

134
00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,560
Speaker 1: did featured and a lot of it featured heroic women

135
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,360
Speaker 1: who's suffering then renders them sympathetic. So one of her

136
00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,480
Speaker 1: most famous is the figure of Zenobia, who's the third

137
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 1: century queen captured by the Romans. And she sculpted Zenobia

138
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:39,560
Speaker 1: as this proud, calm, steady, silent woman who's walking in chains,

139
00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,199
Speaker 1: but she's still majestic and proud despite her surrender. Yeah,

140
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,680
Speaker 1: and then if we look at this bust of Medusa,

141
00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,600
Speaker 1: who is a familiar figure to us from mythology. She

142
00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,160
Speaker 1: was a great beauty then turned into a monster by

143
00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,600
Speaker 1: a jealous goddess and thus gets the crown of snakes.

144
00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,559
Speaker 1: And she sculptured though as this calm, beautiful woman who

145
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,160
Speaker 1: just kind of happens to have a nest of snakes

146
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,480
Speaker 1: hanging out on her head. And in a post over

147
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 1: at the Hood Museum where this this bust is housed,

148
00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:17,040
Speaker 1: they talk about how there is this neo classical restraint

149
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 1: in the piece, as is common for that kind of

150
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,960
Speaker 1: artwork at the time, but also an uncommon emotionality and

151
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,760
Speaker 1: expressiveness in this bust um through her parted lips and

152
00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,080
Speaker 1: also the pose of her head. And they suggest that

153
00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,040
Speaker 1: she's beautiful but hideous at the same time because of

154
00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,920
Speaker 1: the snakes. And perhaps this was Hosmer's commentary on perceptions

155
00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 1: towards women at the time of that double blind between

156
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,640
Speaker 1: the beautiful and what would be deemed hideous. And you

157
00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,559
Speaker 1: could see that too with zenobia and chains. Hello, I

158
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,640
Speaker 1: mean women still didn't have the boat talk about some chains. Well,

159
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,720
Speaker 1: that's right, And I mean entire papers have been written

160
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,720
Speaker 1: about our next statue, which is Beatrice Sensei Um and

161
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,560
Speaker 1: this was the sixteenth century woman condemned to death for

162
00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:09,040
Speaker 1: killing the father who had raped her um. And just

163
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:14,280
Speaker 1: the fact that she is sculpted as this peaceful prisoner.

164
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,360
Speaker 1: She's asleep on her prison bench holding beads. I think

165
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,360
Speaker 1: it's a rosary. She's about to be put to death

166
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,600
Speaker 1: for this horrible crime, and just sort of that duality

167
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,160
Speaker 1: of extreme violence and pain with this peaceful image of

168
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,040
Speaker 1: a woman who she's it's almost like she's done the

169
00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 1: right thing and she knows she's done the right thing.

170
00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,240
Speaker 1: She did what she had to do, but she's going

171
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,640
Speaker 1: to be put to death for it. Yeah, if you

172
00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,560
Speaker 1: were to see the sculpture out of context, like not

173
00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,120
Speaker 1: knowing the backstory, you would have no idea the kind

174
00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:51,719
Speaker 1: of violence in the background that's going on. And she

175
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,720
Speaker 1: was a feminist, not surprisingly who did support the suffrage

176
00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,640
Speaker 1: is cause, and people around her often noted her quote

177
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,240
Speaker 1: un inventional behavior, not just the fact that she was

178
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,360
Speaker 1: such a prestigious sculptor at the time, but she also

179
00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,320
Speaker 1: I mean the very fact that, for instance, Beatrice Sensei

180
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,880
Speaker 1: was done on commission and she was making money, actively

181
00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,760
Speaker 1: seeking out patrons to make money for her work was considered,

182
00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,199
Speaker 1: I mean, rather unladylike. But this was a woman who

183
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,560
Speaker 1: was also raised by her father, her mother, and I

184
00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,400
Speaker 1: think her sister or other siblings had died, so she

185
00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,680
Speaker 1: was raised by her father to be super active in outdoorsy.

186
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,240
Speaker 1: He had her climbing trees, he had her riding horses

187
00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,439
Speaker 1: and learning how to be sort of a person outside

188
00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,720
Speaker 1: of the house. And so a lot of people commented

189
00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,160
Speaker 1: on that. British artist Frederick Layton said Hosmer is the queerest,

190
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,360
Speaker 1: best natured little chap possible, and echoing that, feminist Bessie

191
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,280
Speaker 1: Rayner Park said she's the funniest little creature, not at

192
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,920
Speaker 1: all coarse, rough or slangy, but like a little boy.

193
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,600
Speaker 1: And that's what you see over and over again. People

194
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,000
Speaker 1: who talk about Hosmer essentially call her like a global chap.

195
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,119
Speaker 1: She's she's like a guy. She's like a little boy,

196
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 1: uh jokey, little you know, tomboy, running around making art,

197
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,240
Speaker 1: riding horses, enjoying the outdoors, becoming one of the best

198
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,320
Speaker 1: American neo classical sculptors of the time. Big deal, big deal.

199
00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,280
Speaker 1: But you know, people also hone in on her sexuality too.

200
00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,960
Speaker 1: This was a woman who was able to, once she

201
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,720
Speaker 1: moved over to Florence in Rome, live more openly, and

202
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,200
Speaker 1: a lot of her letters of the time reflect that.

203
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,240
Speaker 1: And she referred to one of her romantic partners as

204
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,840
Speaker 1: her wife, and she called herself another romantic partner's hubby.

205
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:35,920
Speaker 1: You know, I think this was something that a lot

206
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,600
Speaker 1: of the women and men too who went to Europe

207
00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,000
Speaker 1: during this time experienced. It was more of an open lifestyle.

208
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,480
Speaker 1: You were away from that oppressive feeling in America. Well,

209
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,800
Speaker 1: next we're going to talk about Edmonia Lewis Um, whose

210
00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:56,160
Speaker 1: birth name significantly was Wildfire Um. And there's not a

211
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,280
Speaker 1: ton of scholarship out there about her, but she's a

212
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,880
Speaker 1: really important figure because she's often cited as the first

213
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:09,400
Speaker 1: professional African American female sculptor, who also ended up heading

214
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,640
Speaker 1: over to Italy, where her work flourished. Yeah, and it

215
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,880
Speaker 1: is important to mention her because even though there isn't

216
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 1: a ton of stuff out there about her life, you know,

217
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,240
Speaker 1: and her early years and her later years are sort

218
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,480
Speaker 1: of in obscurity, this whole white Memorian flock was definitely

219
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,600
Speaker 1: not literally white. She was a major part of this movement,

220
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,079
Speaker 1: and she's both of African and Native American descent, something

221
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,120
Speaker 1: that really played into her sculpture as well. And so

222
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,840
Speaker 1: Louis studied at Oberlin thanks to financial support from her brother,

223
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,959
Speaker 1: and trained to be a teacher, and her brother was

224
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,720
Speaker 1: really encouraging of her education. He basically said, this is

225
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,880
Speaker 1: how you're going to live a life that isn't basically

226
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,600
Speaker 1: in a shack. You were going to make something of yourself.

227
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,240
Speaker 1: But during her time in Oberlin, she was actually accused

228
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,599
Speaker 1: of poisoning two of her classmates, and this fact of

229
00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,040
Speaker 1: her life's almost is as well known as her sculpture, unfortunately,

230
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,800
Speaker 1: and she was captured and beaten by a white mob,

231
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,680
Speaker 1: but the charges against her were eventually dropped. And it's

232
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,200
Speaker 1: after this point that she moves to Boston and encounters

233
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,680
Speaker 1: the abolitionist community. Yeah, and it's there that she befriends

234
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:20,880
Speaker 1: sculptor Edward Brackett, who ends up becoming her teacher, and

235
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,600
Speaker 1: she starts earning some small commercial success thanks to bus

236
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:29,400
Speaker 1: of people like William Lloyd Garrison, notable abolitionists of the time,

237
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,280
Speaker 1: as well as John Brown. But there's kind of an

238
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,600
Speaker 1: icky scideivist as well, because abolitionists, for all of their

239
00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:42,240
Speaker 1: great intentions, obviously still used her as an example of

240
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 1: what African Americans could be capable of if given the chance,

241
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,720
Speaker 1: and this earned Louis national and international press coverage. So yeah,

242
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,080
Speaker 1: so it's it's great that she got so much attention,

243
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,040
Speaker 1: but it is kind of your right gross that she

244
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,240
Speaker 1: was used. She was propped up as this example of

245
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,440
Speaker 1: what black people in America should be or could be,

246
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,880
Speaker 1: kind of an exception to the rules exactly. Well, so

247
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,440
Speaker 1: after this, she goes on to earn her first major

248
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,960
Speaker 1: commercial success thanks to a bust of Colonel Robert gould Shaw.

249
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,920
Speaker 1: After this point, she's able to move to Italy. She's

250
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 1: earned enough money and in Rome she encounters other female

251
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,600
Speaker 1: artists and she gets to enjoy more social and artistic freedom.

252
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,200
Speaker 1: She could fully participate in the international market for sculpture

253
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,520
Speaker 1: and not just rely on abolitionist patronage because, like you said,

254
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,000
Speaker 1: abolitionist community and Boston great intentions want to, you know,

255
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:43,000
Speaker 1: free African Americans of the bonds of slavery. But she

256
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:44,880
Speaker 1: was still kind of under their thumb if they were

257
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,240
Speaker 1: the ones giving her all of the commissions. So in

258
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,320
Speaker 1: Italy she could kind of make her own way. And

259
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 1: in eighteen sixties seven she creates her most famous work,

260
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,040
Speaker 1: Forever Free, which is a sculpture of a black man

261
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,480
Speaker 1: and woman leaving the bonds of slavery. And nine years

262
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,480
Speaker 1: later she she shows her last major work, which is

263
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,520
Speaker 1: the Death of Cleopatra at the Philadelphia Exposition. Yeah, and apparently,

264
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,240
Speaker 1: I mean the significance of both of those pieces is

265
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,360
Speaker 1: worth mentioning too, because Forever Free was sculpted to commemorate

266
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:19,600
Speaker 1: the ratification of the thirteenth Amendment, so clearly there's a

267
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:24,360
Speaker 1: lot of personal investment in that piece. But then when

268
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,440
Speaker 1: it comes to the Death of Cleopatra, which depicts Cleopatra

269
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:34,600
Speaker 1: sitting on her throne um, that was really her effort

270
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,360
Speaker 1: to secure her place as a significant artist, to prove

271
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,360
Speaker 1: that she was as good as all of the rest,

272
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 1: and she did, because she's definitely someone noteworthy in this

273
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,200
Speaker 1: entire group of women, as is Vinny Reem, who studied

274
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,600
Speaker 1: with sculptor Clark Mills in Washington, d C. Luigi Majoli

275
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,840
Speaker 1: in Rome, and Leon Banant in Paris. So Luigi. She

276
00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 1: studied with Luigi Luigi um not Mario. But in eighteen

277
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,760
Speaker 1: sixty six, it's just eighteen years old. All Vinny here

278
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,560
Speaker 1: was picked by Congress to sculpt a statue of Abraham Lincoln,

279
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,480
Speaker 1: the significance being that she became the first female artist

280
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,440
Speaker 1: commissioned to create a work of art for the federal government.

281
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,399
Speaker 1: And she carves it in Rome out of Carrera marble,

282
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,960
Speaker 1: and it's unveiled in d C in eighteen seventy one,

283
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 1: and it's gorgeous. You can you can see it on

284
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,760
Speaker 1: the Google if you'd like to. And there's this quote

285
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,920
Speaker 1: by then New York Legislator James Brooks on the Lincoln statue,

286
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,680
Speaker 1: which starts off so glowing and then takes a turn

287
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,320
Speaker 1: that sums up one of the main reasons we even

288
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 1: wanted to do this specific episode, So Brooks says, the

289
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,359
Speaker 1: parthenon the Vatican, the great museums of Paris, Berlin, and

290
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:57,840
Speaker 1: London show us no marble monuments. Bus North statues the

291
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,800
Speaker 1: finger work of the fair sex, while here in this

292
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 1: rotundo we now see the equal rights of women are

293
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:11,000
Speaker 1: not at the ballot box, but in the pencil, the chisel,

294
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 1: the artistic instruments to perpetuate the human form divine. Oh,

295
00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,000
Speaker 1: you were so close, James Brook. You you had me,

296
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:28,320
Speaker 1: You had me until until, not until. Yeah, I'm I'm

297
00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,880
Speaker 1: not a sexist person, but but you're really better at

298
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,760
Speaker 1: making sandwiches than decisions. Well, at least she can make

299
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,439
Speaker 1: pretty things, which is basically his attitude. Well, he was

300
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,080
Speaker 1: at least kinder in his view of women's artistic capability

301
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,160
Speaker 1: than a lot of his male contemporaries, who were like, oh,

302
00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,720
Speaker 1: I mean they're kind of posers. Well, I mean, even

303
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,439
Speaker 1: Vinnie's husband wasn't so great. So there's this. It's not

304
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,439
Speaker 1: that she wasn't working during this time, but there's a

305
00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,119
Speaker 1: forty year, forty year, four decade gap between the Lincoln

306
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,479
Speaker 1: unveiling and the completion of a statue of Iowa Governor

307
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,439
Speaker 1: Samuel Jordan Kirkwood in the In the meantime, she had

308
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,640
Speaker 1: been focusing on her life as a wife and a mother.

309
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,320
Speaker 1: And that's fine, great, hooray, wife and mother. However, that's

310
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 1: because her husband, Lieutenant Richard Haxey, imposed restrictions on her sculpting.

311
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:25,120
Speaker 1: Oh Hoxie, Oh oh Hoxy, Why you gotta be like that? Well,

312
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:30,080
Speaker 1: now that we've spotlighted these three important women, we want

313
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,600
Speaker 1: to kind of go back now and talk about how

314
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 1: this supposed flock came to be associated together and how

315
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 1: that fits into the broader culture regarding women an artistic

316
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,080
Speaker 1: ambition at the time. Okay, so we named some names

317
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,840
Speaker 1: for you. We talked a little bit about the history

318
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 1: behind women traveling to Europe to become artists, sculptors in particular,

319
00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 1: and now we want to talk about how these women

320
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,439
Speaker 1: even them together. I mean, obviously they're individuals. Obviously this

321
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,200
Speaker 1: was not like a sculpting sorority. You know, they had

322
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: different interests and paths in life, but they also had

323
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 1: a lot in common in terms of what drew them

324
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 1: to Italy and what kept them there. And this is

325
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 1: coming from a paper by Sarah Fust Parrot called Networking

326
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 1: in Italy, Charlotte Cushman and the White Marmorian Flock. And

327
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,120
Speaker 1: so Charlotte Cushman was one of America's first big name actresses,

328
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,720
Speaker 1: if not the first American big name actress, and she

329
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,159
Speaker 1: attracted a ton of female artists, not just sculptors, writers

330
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 1: and painters to to Italy in the eighteen fifties through

331
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,120
Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies. So in eighteen fifty two, Cushman first

332
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,880
Speaker 1: travels to Rome with Harriet Hosmer, and she ended up

333
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 1: connecting Hosmer with potential patrons and helped her out of

334
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 1: a bunch of money trouble, the awkward part being that

335
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 1: Kushman's romantic partner would temporarily leave her for Hosmer in

336
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty four. But romantic things aside, Cushman had a

337
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,200
Speaker 1: lot to do with with helping and supporting a out

338
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 1: of the sculptures and artists around her. Yeah, she flexed

339
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 1: her muscle constantly to advocate on behalf of sculptures and

340
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 1: partner Emma Stebbins, for instance, And so we have her

341
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 1: to thank for the Bethesda Fountain in New York Central

342
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,880
Speaker 1: Park that Stevens sculpted. And she also kept in touch

343
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,159
Speaker 1: with sculpture Florence Freeman's dubious mother via letters to ease

344
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 1: her mind about Freeman of being in Italy. And she

345
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: also organized a group purchase of one of Edmonia Lewis's

346
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 1: sculptures to help keep her working. And when I was

347
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:41,679
Speaker 1: reading about Charlotte Cushman and her hardcore advocacy for women

348
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 1: supporting women specifically, I thought about our Shine Theory podcast.

349
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 1: I thought about len In. I mean, this was really

350
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: she was kind of the original Sheryl Sandberg with this

351
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 1: old school lean in group, just being really focused, singularly

352
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 1: focused on promoting other mail artists work and pulling strings

353
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 1: abroad to wealthy patrons saying hey you, okay, listen, I'm

354
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 1: Charlotte Kushman. I'm a really big deal. I know this sculptor.

355
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: You should buy one of her pieces to put in

356
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: your mansion. Why don't you do it? Andy'd be like, Oh,

357
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 1: that's a wonderful idea. Charlotte, well yeah, I mean she's

358
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 1: she's like lean In with a little bit of romantic

359
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 1: drama in there as well. Time to time. She was

360
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 1: also kind of in love with a lot of these

361
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: women also also just kind of came and went to

362
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: to some degree. I mean, Charlotte Kushman was, I mean,

363
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: she was in a pretty pretty plum pocisition. It seemed

364
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: like she was well you know, what Parent points out

365
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: is that Kushman was evidence that ambitious, artistic women didn't

366
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 1: have to sacrifice happiness and fulfillment in the domestic sphere

367
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: in favor of a career. And you know, Charlotte Cushman

368
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 1: is this masculine figure who'd never married, and she maintained

369
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: a quote unquote cherished celibacy. Wink wink, nudge, nudge. But

370
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 1: so instead of having to sacrifice one for the other,

371
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 1: she says, you know, we should band together. And and

372
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 1: she encouraged them to do this so that they could

373
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 1: take on tasks for one another that were traditionally delegated

374
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 1: two men to do. So, Hey, if you are out

375
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 1: working all night, I'll cook dinner for all of us.

376
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: Or if you're doing this, I'll help you know, purchase supplies.

377
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: And this really was not an unusual setup romantic relationships

378
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 1: or not. This is something that Vivian green Fried, Vanderbilt

379
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,120
Speaker 1: art history professor, wrote about um in looking at the

380
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 1: relationships of these women. She said, nineteenth century white middle

381
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 1: class women often form their own gendered communities out of

382
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: necessity in a world comprising discreete male and female spheres,

383
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: composing a closed and intimate female world in which a

384
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: young girl like Hosmer grew towards womanhood under the tutelage

385
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: of an older woman like Kushman. But also interesting to

386
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 1: me too about Cushman was that I would have assumed

387
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 1: that she would have been this threatening figure to socialites

388
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: at the time because she was living such kind of

389
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: a transgressive kind of life, But it was just the opposite.

390
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: She was so beloved for the fact that she legitimated

391
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: a lot of American theatrical work at the time by

392
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: becoming that first big name stage actress, because previously only

393
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: British theater was considered true theater, and the Chicago Times

394
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: at one point described her as an ambassadress for America,

395
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: living abroad, showing Italians all these fancy people, because back then,

396
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: of course European culture was considered the culture, and so

397
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, it's great that we have Cushman

398
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: over here, you know, kind of repping us to show that, hey, Americans,

399
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: they aren't so bad now. I thought the exact same

400
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: thing when I was reading that paper about Kushman. I

401
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: was just waiting for the whole thing of like and

402
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: everybody in America hated her too. Because she lived in

403
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 1: an alternative lifestyle. But yeah, it was exactly the opposite.

404
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: People were so excited that we had women like Kushman

405
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 1: and Harriet Hosmer kind of yeah, like you said, repping

406
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: for us that to show that, hey, we have cultured too,

407
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: We can we can provide high quality entertainment, art and culture. Um,

408
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: we don't just have to rely on people from other

409
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: countries to bring it to us. But at the same time,

410
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 1: women in America had to rely on going to another country,

411
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: specifically Italy at the time, in order to pursue their

412
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,719
Speaker 1: artistic ambitions. And I was so pleased to learn that

413
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 1: the character Amy in Luisa may Alcott's Little Women was

414
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: based on her sister Mary, who pulled a Memorian flock.

415
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: She went to its study art in Italy because of

416
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: this whole trend that was happening, and it makes sense

417
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 1: Little Women came out in eighteen eighteen sixty eight. So,

418
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: I mean, if if you weren't familiar with this, you

419
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: actually might have been if you've read Little Women. Well,

420
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: I mean, but speaking of literature and characters in literature,

421
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: one character does play a large part in this because

422
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: you have to keep in mind that you know, traveling

423
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: to Italy wasn't something that just anybody and everybody got

424
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: to do, and you would often rely on literature to

425
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: kind of tell you what was going on, and novels

426
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: were even used to sort of guide books, because once

427
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: the upper crust read a particularly colorful novel about Italy

428
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: or France or whatever, they would basically follow that character's

429
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: footsteps through the town. And so Cushman's contemporaries actually associated

430
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: her with this character named Karine from the eighteen o

431
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 1: seven book karn or Italy. And in the book, the

432
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: Italian Karrine creates all of this amazing art through divine intervention,

433
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: which is interesting, and she ends up being crowned as

434
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: the best that Italian civilization has to offer, so sort

435
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 1: of a Cushman but in the art world. Um, but

436
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: she ultimately suffers for her success because you know, she

437
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,479
Speaker 1: like flew too close to the sun. As a lady person,

438
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: Cushman didn't. She was super successful. She was very smart

439
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: with her money and where she spent it, and she

440
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: was able to free a lot of the other women

441
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: who followed her to Italy to pursue their own interests.

442
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: And because there was a lot of American investment and

443
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: interest in proving our cultural worth. At the time, women

444
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: traveling to Italy was acceptable. It was like, okay, well,

445
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: if you're going to do that, if you're going to

446
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: represent as well, I guess go and make your art

447
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: if you must, little woman. And in that paper, Parent

448
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: writes the very fact that many American women were pursuing

449
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: careers in Italy was interpreted by their contemporaries as an

450
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: indication of the expansiveness and vigor of American culture. So

451
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: not only was it okay, it was encouraged, and it

452
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: was also too though, as Parrot goes on to talk about,

453
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: indicative of the inadequacy of artistic training available in the US.

454
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 1: But this was really this was an interesting twist all

455
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: of it. We still believed that the character of American

456
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: womanhood was suppure ear to any other. So there was

457
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: kind of this our girls versus their girls thing going

458
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 1: on between America and Italy, where we were like, Okay,

459
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: you guys have all of this cultural superiority, Yes, but

460
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: we have superior women. So if we send them over

461
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: and then we combine the two, we win big time. Yeah,

462
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,479
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of like Rockham stock'em Art World edition. Well,

463
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 1: but so what's up with this moniker? You know, we've

464
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: we've been talking about the more Marian flock. We touched

465
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: on what more Marian means and what it doesn't mean.

466
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean boobs today. I'm sure boobs are part

467
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: of it, the part of why they were getting hated on.

468
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: But the moniker is definitely evidence of the way these

469
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: women were collectively across the board dismissed by a lot

470
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: of their contemporaries. And it starts with Scarlet Letter author

471
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: Nathaniel Hawthorne. So Hawthorne goes over to Italy with his wife,

472
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: who herself is a painter, and based on his experiences there,

473
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: he writes the novel A Marble Fawn in eighteen ft nine,

474
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: and that's based on his encounters with people including Hosmer

475
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: Lander and fellow sculptor William Wetmore Story, who sounds like

476
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: a wet blanket to play off of his middle name.

477
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: But it's this romanticized view of Americans seeking artistic training abroad,

478
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: and the plot involves female characters living outside of social

479
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: norms gasp. But he based his innocent character Hilda on

480
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: Hosmer interestingly, and the male protagonist Kenyon on story and

481
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: these characters in the book fall in love eventually, but

482
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: in real life that was not so much the case.

483
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: Yeah a, because Hosmer was likely a lesbian right and

484
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: be story in real life pretty much dismissed her. But

485
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: it's kind of clear in the way that he does

486
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: this that he's just completely intimidated by her talent. So

487
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: at one point he writes, Miss Hosmer is also to

488
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: say the word very willful and too independent by half,

489
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: and it's mixed up with a set whom I do

490
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: not and I can therefore do very little for her.

491
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: And he goes on to say she may or may

492
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: not have inventive powers as an artist, but if she

493
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: have will not, she'd be the first woman story. I

494
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: wanted to throw my laptop at a window when I

495
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: read that. I would she not be the first women

496
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: oh story, fighting words. Yeah. He describes as Mer as

497
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: one of the emancipated females who dwell there in heavenly unity,

498
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: which sounds amazing things well seriously, and continuing that theme,

499
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: he wrote that she would have the Romans know that

500
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: a Yankee girl can do anything she pleases. Walk alone,

501
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: ride her horse alone, and laugh at their rules. Again,

502
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: sounds amazing. So she can walk and ride a horse

503
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: that's so great by herself, by herself. And not only

504
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: is there that tone of insecurity, but there's also a

505
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: little bit of tone of like, I'm trying to save

506
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: her from these lesbians, and she just will not come

507
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: away with me. But author John Carlos wrote writing about

508
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: this relationship between Hawthorne Hasmer and author Henry James says

509
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: William's stories patronizing judgment of Heismer betrays his own fears

510
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: that Hosmer's artistic achievement and talent might be superior to

511
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: his own, as most modern artistorians agree. They were now

512
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: speaking of though the marble font. We mentioned the two

513
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: the two of the main characters, Hilda and Kenyan, but

514
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: there's also another female protagonist, Miriam, who was a little

515
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,479
Speaker 1: bit of a mysterious figure, and she is based on

516
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: real life woman Margaret Fuller, who was an early American

517
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: feminist part of the Transcendental movement, also the first female

518
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: American foreign correspondent, who also while she was in Italy,

519
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: got pregnant, ended up marrying the guy and then on

520
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: their way back to the US died in a shipwreck,

521
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: and her death at the time was seen as proof

522
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: of the rash decision it would be for a woman

523
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: to pursue her artistic ambition. She was a cautionary tale

524
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: that Miriam was well. I mean, it's hard to believe

525
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: that Margaret Fuller's even real because her story just reads

526
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: like it's straight out of a novel from this period,

527
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: which is why she was Her life was such fodder

528
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: for Hawthorne. I mean, here's a woman who essentially lived

529
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: her life as what we would think of as a spinster,

530
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: goes to Italy, meets this younger guy who's like cut,

531
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: nothing going for him. I mean, how many of these

532
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: people did be dating college Like he's got nothing going

533
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: for him, but she's just like, you're hot, Like I

534
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: haven't been hanging out with dudes for a while, so like,

535
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: let's do this. They do it, gets pregnant, gets in

536
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: a shipwreck, all is lost, becomes the cautionary Yeah, it's

537
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: it's I'm people of that era. I'm sure they were like,

538
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: which I'm sure wouldn't rage her if she knew that,

539
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure. But but so anyway, in this book that

540
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: was swirling around all of these um sculptors and sculptures.

541
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: Is Hawthorne used the term Marmorian to mean, you know,

542
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: resembling Marble, as in smoothness or hardness. But that term

543
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: is been taken by Henry James and applied to this

544
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: group of lady sculptors, and he definitely, you guys, meant

545
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: it to be dismissive. After all, he included the reference

546
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: in his book about William Wetmore's story, who, as we've

547
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: already established, was none too fond of these women, including Hosmer.

548
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: And after all, she is the only lady sculptor that

549
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: James mentioned in his book by name. Yeah, so the

550
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: whole White Memorian flock thing comes from this passage in

551
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: Henry James's book that goes a leg this stories. Patty is,

552
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: of course Miss Harriet Hosmer, the most eminent member of

553
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: that strange sisterhood of American ladies sculptors who at one

554
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: time settled upon the Seven Hills in a White Memorian flock.

555
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: Their rise, their prosperity, their subsistence are in presence of

556
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: some of the widely scattered monuments of their reign. Things

557
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: likely to lead us into bipaths, queer, and crooked, so

558
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 1: just all sorts of like really awesome things to say

559
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: about women. But yeah, he's he's dismissing these women as birds. Yeah,

560
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: like they're just they're just white, cold, lesbian birds that

561
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: I hate and resent. And he also mentions at Monia Lewis,

562
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 1: though not by name, when he writes one of the Sisterhood,

563
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, was a negress whose color, picturesquely

564
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: contrasting with that of her plastic material, was the pleading

565
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: agent of her fame. Yeah, and if you keep in

566
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 1: mind that Henry James, you know, was not too fond

567
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: of women in general who weren't inside the home. I mean,

568
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: in other books of his he drew these unspoken parallels

569
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: between female copyists, the women who would, for instance, go

570
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: to museums or galleries and paint what they saw and

571
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 1: prostitutes good grief, I know, good grief. So so Hawthorne

572
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: and James obviously did not hold these women in terribly

573
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: high esteem, although I would be willing to guess that

574
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: Hawthorne was like a little more okay with that, I

575
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,280
Speaker 1: would hope. So, considering that his wife Sophia was an artist,

576
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: although once they got married, she for the most part

577
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: kind of had to pack away her canvases. Yeah, I've

578
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: gotta love that stuff. But so, what was the what

579
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: was the general consensus about these ladies. Well, like you

580
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: said that they were one monolithic group, they're kind of

581
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: lumped together rather than being seen as individuals with individual talent.

582
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: And a lot of the articles also focused on personalities, appearing,

583
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 1: and a lot of articles also focused on personalities, appearances,

584
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: behaviors rather than their work, which is something that we

585
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: still see so often today in profiles of accomplished women. Yeah,

586
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: big time. How many magazine articles have you read about

587
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: a woman that starts off describing what she's wearing and

588
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: what she's eating? So many, especially if she is really attractive,

589
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 1: conventionally attractive and finn it'll start off with what she's eating.

590
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: If she's not as conventionally attractive, probably what she's wearing. Yeah, yeah,

591
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: I love it. Um. Well. So in eighteen sixties six

592
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: freelance correspondent Henry Referred reporting back on this Mormorian flock

593
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: departs from the bird reference and describes them as a

594
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: fair constellation of twelve stars of greater or lesser magnitude

595
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: who shed their soft and humanizing influence on a profession

596
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: which has done so much for the refinement and civilization

597
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: of man. I mean that doesn't sound so condescending, but

598
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: it is still. I mean, it's limited. Obviously, they're they're

599
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: this discreet constellation of twelve stars and that's it. Yeah, yeah,

600
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: why why go and go into it any further? And

601
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: we could also say that about American writer and art

602
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: critic Henry Tuckerman, who, in his six hundred page volume

603
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: about art, dedicated just five pages to all of these

604
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: American female sculptors. His take that the public appreciation of

605
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: their arts seemed to come from quote national deference to

606
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: and sympathy with the sex, and from quote a lack

607
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: of understanding about art in general. So basically, if you

608
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 1: appear to appreciate any of these sculptures that are being

609
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: created by these women, you are probably just feel a

610
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 1: little bad for them because they're women, and how nice

611
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 1: for them that they're struggling, or you just don't get art.

612
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: And I want to give him this a tiny past

613
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: because his six hundred page volume was coming out in

614
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty seven. But still, Puckerman, uh, pretty and he

615
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: was also to living in Italy, so he was right

616
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: in the midst of this and still thumbed his knows

617
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: at these transgressive women as they were often considered by

618
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,720
Speaker 1: the wealthy travelers who would go through these Italian roots

619
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: to see all these studios um and the other sites abroad,

620
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: who would always want to look into these Mermorian flock

621
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: studios to see like, well, what does it even look

622
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: like for a woman to be working like this? Yeah,

623
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: because you know, I mentioned earlier that a lot of

624
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 1: the novels of the era were used almost as travel guides,

625
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: and this is also true for Hawthorne's The Marble Fon

626
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: that he described so intricately all of these different sites

627
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 1: and artworks and people in his book that when American

628
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: tourists would come to Italy, they would either have in

629
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: hand or purchase a copy of his book that had

630
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: places where you could insert postcards and pictures when you

631
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,919
Speaker 1: went to the exact same spot. Oh my god, it's

632
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: like they eat prey, love twitter. It is. And you know,

633
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 1: by a large the medium in general was considered inappropriate

634
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,919
Speaker 1: for women of this time, like painting and sketching. That's

635
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: totally cool, except if you're Henry James, and you think

636
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 1: that women who sketch in the museum or prostitutes. But um,

637
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: it's essentially the fact that they're using these difficult and

638
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: dirty materials and they have to exert themselves to manipulate

639
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: the stone. Um that they ended up inhabiting this essentially

640
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: masculine realm. And this made a lot of the contemporaries,

641
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: the artist contemporaries uneasy. Yeah, there was a lot of

642
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: scandal actually that broke out, for instance, around Hosmer's Zenobia sculpture,

643
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: because it received all of this critical acclaim. But then

644
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: there was this backlash among some people who said, well,

645
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: she has all of these these Italian workmen who are

646
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: doing the chiseling for her, which was the case for

647
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: male sculptures at the time as well. There was a

648
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: lot of resistance just to even even allowing women to

649
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: succeed in this field, right exactly because after all, you know,

650
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: you mentioned the commission thing earlier, it was totally unfeminine

651
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 1: for women to try to pursue a commission. Um. But

652
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: the artist did a lot of them did work to

653
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: counter this whole negative perception by portraying themselves as that

654
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: whole Ambassador to Europe thing, ambassador. Yes, The ambassador asked like, no, no, no,

655
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: we're not. We're not trying to further our own careers.

656
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: We're just trying to be ambassadors to America. We're women

657
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: were communal minded, um, and we to have to mention

658
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: that there was probably some latent homophobia going on as well,

659
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: because a lot of these women were living in kind

660
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 1: of lesbian arrangements. The euphemism for at the time was

661
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 1: a Boston marriage, which was really exemplified by Anne Whitney,

662
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 1: who was the sculpture at the time. She was older

663
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: and not as successful as a Harriet and hose Mur

664
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: for instance, but she and her partner Adeline Manning lived

665
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 1: in a quote unquote Boston marriage or decades and when

666
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: Manning died or I guess after Okay, so Manning died first,

667
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: then Whitney died, and they wanted to be they were

668
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: supposed to be buried next to each other as well,

669
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 1: and kind of had to fight for that. Well, Manning's

670
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: family ended up, yeah, making sure that that happened, that

671
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: they were buried together, but partners, well, yeah, And so

672
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: I mean, not only were these women living outside the

673
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 1: normal bounds of matrimony and motherhood, but they were also

674
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: pursuing careers and living in these situations with other women,

675
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: which yes, sometimes they were so called Boston marriages, and

676
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: sometimes they were all just living together to do what

677
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: Kushman envisioned and sort of support one another. And you know,

678
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: the reports that came back of these women living together

679
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: in a spinster like fashion were always okay. It's always

680
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: okay if they're just older women who never married and

681
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: their spinsters, and that's fine. Even those romantic friendships that

682
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: we've talked before, especially in our episode on women's colleges,

683
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 1: like that was still okay. But once you were actually

684
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: refer drying to another woman as your wife, or saying

685
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: that you were her hubby in Hosmer's case, and actually

686
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: displaying any public displays of affection or actual sexual desires,

687
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: that was not okay. And so this group was just

688
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: sort of a microcosm of everything that made people so

689
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: uncomfortable at the time, especially with women. But I do

690
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: think that we women today have a lot that we

691
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 1: can learn from this group of artists that I don't

692
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: feel like we can call a white memorial flog because

693
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,439
Speaker 1: it was a dismissive term for them at the time,

694
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: because I mean, they really dug their heels in and

695
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 1: got so into the concept of the importance of networking,

696
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: supporting each other, not allowing jealousy to get in the

697
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: way of each other's ambition and career achievements. It's really

698
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 1: inspirational in a lot of ways. It is inspirational and

699
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 1: I'd love to sculpt something, but I just never took

700
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: that class. Caroline, you still can get a ticket to

701
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: a pick up a copy of the Marble Phone and go.

702
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: I know I need to. I'll be your patron. I

703
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: have no money, but I'll be your spiritual Thanks. Okay, Well,

704
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 1: we are really curious to hear from listeners about this.

705
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if there are any sort of expat artistic

706
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: types listening to this podcast right now in a far

707
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: away place. I know we have some some traveling listeners,

708
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 1: because I know that this was also inspirational for me

709
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: in terms of the importance of getting outside of your

710
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: own backyard every now and then and how and how

711
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: invigorating that can be creatively as well. So let us

712
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: know your thoughts about sculpture. Women aren't ambition and kind

713
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: of the conflict that poses sometimes to women's roles and quotes.

714
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our

715
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: email address. You can tweet us at mom stuff podcasts,

716
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of

717
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: messages that are with you right now. I have a

718
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: letter here from Katie about our slut shaming episode. She says, well,

719
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 1: I don't have a grand scheme to rid our culture

720
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: of slut shaming. I do have an anecdote that y'all

721
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: might find interesting. When Rush Limbaugh made his infamous slut

722
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 1: comments about Sandra Fluke and birth control, I happened to

723
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: be a recent college grad working in the DC office

724
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: of a female Republican senator, and I was one of

725
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: the three people who answered most of the phone calls

726
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: after the Sandra Fluke comments. We received some of the

727
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: most hate filled, verbally abusive phone calls I have ever heard.

728
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: People called in from all over the country to call

729
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: us the senator's whors, sluts, and a thousand other things

730
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: that I'd rather not relay. While it was office policy

731
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: that we could hang up on any verbally abusive caller

732
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: after eight hours of hundreds of abusive calls, and they

733
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: were pretty much constant for days after those comments. We

734
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 1: were all pretty shell shocked. Even now three years later,

735
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: it's one of the worst working weeks I've ever had.

736
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: No one in our office supported rush Lamba's comments, including

737
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: the Senator, but so much ire was taken out on us.

738
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: Now I realized that the people who work in the

739
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: offices of senators and other elected officials are there to

740
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 1: facilitate communication between the official and constituents. But my advice

741
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: or please for anyone who chooses to call on an

742
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: issue is please, please please remember that the person on

743
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: the other end of the phone is a person. They're

744
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: an actual human being. This is broader than the reactionary

745
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 1: splut shaming or verbally abuse of calls we got on

746
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: that one issue, but it's something that played out over

747
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: and over again in my time there. A really good

748
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,479
Speaker 1: rule of thumb is to ask yourself, would I talk

749
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: like this if I was looking at this person's face

750
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: Most of the time, the shouty, sweary name calling would

751
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 1: never happen in person. A phone call shouldn't be any difference,

752
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: And I'm pretty sure this holds for YouTube comments too. Anyway,

753
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 1: that's my little soapbox moment. For the record, I'd rather

754
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: not reclaim the word slut. I just prefer that we

755
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: stopped using it all together. So thank you, Katie. Yeah,

756
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 1: we've heard so much about the slut shaming episode and

757
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: still are getting letters about it, and same thing with

758
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: the podcast Stalking one oh one. And I've got a

759
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: letter here from someone I'm going to keep anonymous to

760
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: protect her privacy, who writes I was the victim of

761
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 1: a stalker. He was my ex boyfriend. This was pretty

762
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 1: soon after our breakup. I really didn't know who was

763
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: stalking me. I would receive daily threatening emails and one

764
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: night came home to a rock through the window. I

765
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 1: was rooming with my best friend who owned the house,

766
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: and I spoke to the police and he told me

767
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: was probably my ex. And somehow I got connected to

768
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: a wonderful detective who worked to find the address these

769
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 1: emails for coming from, and he eventually traced them back

770
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: to my ex. I told my family in my workplace.

771
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: My family blamed me for introducing this man into my life.

772
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: Every day I felt guilt, shame, and overall disbelief that

773
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: I had gotten myself into situation, and every day my

774
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: family reminded me that you should have known better, and

775
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: I couldn't take it. For a month, I slept on

776
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: a couch at my friend's house. We weren't close because

777
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 1: most of my close friends didn't even want to risk

778
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: their own safety by having me there. At work, my

779
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: boss wanted me fired. She said I could no longer

780
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 1: perform my work duties due to the fear I had

781
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: of my stalker. Oh yeah, and according to her, I

782
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: was putting everyone at risk. Luckily, her director let me

783
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: work from another office. I went on and got a

784
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: temporary restraining order. The police were never able to find

785
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: him and give it to him. When I went to

786
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: my permanent hearing, he wasn't there and the court said

787
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: they could go no further. Once he knew I contacted

788
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: the police, he never bothered me again, only left me

789
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 1: a bag at work with pictures and a letter saying

790
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 1: he was moving away. I know I did the right

791
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: thing contacting the police, and I'm grateful to the officer

792
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 1: that helped me. I'm ever grateful to my friend who

793
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: gave me his couch and only listened. But it's still

794
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: a challenge dealing with the shame I feel about the

795
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: whole event. Now only a few close friends know what happened.

796
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: The event also changed my relationship with my family. I

797
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 1: share it with no one and often wonder if I

798
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: pop up somewhere as having filed a restraining order. I'm

799
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: also grateful to the few people who didn't judge me

800
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: and just supported me. Hopefully I can be that person

801
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: to someone else. So I wanted to share that story

802
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: because we've heard a lot of things like this, just

803
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: to emphasize, like, what really happens in these kinds of situations,

804
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: And if you have a friend or a family member,

805
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: even an acquaintance who's going through this, I have some

806
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: kindness and compassion. So with that, send us your emails.

807
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 1: Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com is our

808
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,720
Speaker 1: address and for links to all of our social media

809
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts,

810
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: including this one with links to more fascinating sources about

811
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 1: these ladies. Sculpture says, head on over to stuff Mom

812
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for more on this and

813
00:48:51,400 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics because it has stuff works dot com.

814
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: Five