WEBVTT - Marty Baron: News Maker 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:08.039 Thank you to Jessica Lesson and The Information for hosting 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:11.520 this episode's conversation. And because we did this at the 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.840 Yale Club, you may hear some audio that sounds a 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.759 little different than the podcast we do inside the studio. 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:23.400 Hi Katie, Hello Brian. So, Marty Baron has become kind 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.919 of this generation's Ben Bradley. I was going to say 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:29.040 he's kind of the dean of American journalism right now. Yeah, 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:31.600 and not just because he was portrayed in the movie 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:38.000 Spotlight by Lee of Shriver, yes, but also because he's 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:44.159 probably the most skillful, experienced, courageous newspaper editor in America 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:46.639 and at the Washington Post, he's really made a name 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:50.239 for himself by having the courage to take on the 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.479 new administration and to take on Donald Trump. Brian, you 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.240 and I were completely geeking out because we got to 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.279 talk to Marty at a conference that was organized by 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:02.080 The Information, aation which was founded by a friend of yours, 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:05.720 Jessica Lesson. Jess and I went to college together and 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:11.560 she created Harvard. Yeah, your safety school came. It preempt 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.440 your favorite joke. But The Information is kind of a 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.520 new kind of tech newsletter where people pay for content 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:20.080 there are no ads, and it's popular among a lot 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:24.200 of Silicon Valley insiders. And so we talked with Marty 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:28.720 and Jess about the future of the media industry, about 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:31.040 d C and the Trump era, and of course about 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:33.840 how technology is changing all of this. That's right, And 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.520 just a few months after Marty became the top editor 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:39.640 at The Washington Post, the paper was purchased by Jeff 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:44.119 Bezos from its longtime owners, the grand Family. Now you all, 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:47.520 I'm sure know that Jeff Bezos is Amazon dot COM's 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:50.360 founder and CEO. And ever since the sale went through 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.600 in two thousand thirteen, I've really wondered what this transition 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:58.520 was like and how the Washington Post is merging technology 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.160 and some of the greatest journal is um that's being 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.600 produced today. So that was the first question I asked Marty. 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:07.960 How has a tech owner and a tech mentality changed 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:13.400 his job and the mission of the Washington Post. Sure, 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.760 we'll have changed it dramatically and immediately. So when our 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:20.960 mission previously had been described as foreign about Washington, certainly 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:24.520 recognizing that Washington was the location of the nation's capital, 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.600 but we were we had pretty much a regional focus. Uh. 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:29.840 And when Jeff came in. Uh, he said that that 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.960 wasn't the right strategy for us, and he immediately changed 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:37.840 our strategy to be focused on becoming national and even international. UH. 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.400 And you know, he said that the Internet had taken 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.400 a lot of white things away from us, obviously the 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.320 protection that we had against a competition of all sorts, 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:48.880 but it had also given us some gifts. UH. And 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:51.560 the primary gift that it had given us was essentially 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.200 free distribution, and it would be crazy for us not 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:58.280 to take advantage of that, particularly given the Washington Post brand, 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.760 Uh that it was no nationally, it was known internationally 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:05.600 and had the opportunity to become a national news organization. 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:09.000 And that was the fundamental change that took place for us. 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.440 You know, I've always thought that the media outlet that 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:16.120 figures out the secret sauce between technology and content was 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:17.839 going to win the day. And I have to say, 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.560 I think the Washington Post is the closest I've seen 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.359 to really making that combination. And I imagine, Marty, when 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.560 you started out in this business, you had didn't have 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:32.639 to worry about a B testing, algorithms, programmatic advertising, sponsored 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.960 content and all that jazz. How do you balance sort 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.360 of technology and content and are you worried that all 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:41.920 these things are going to have a negative impact on 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:45.480 quality journalism? Right, Well, it's true that those Uh, I 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.480 didn't have to worry about those things, because those things 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.680 didn't exist when I got into the business forty years ago. Uh. 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.200 And there was actually, uh the people who were involved 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:55.040 in the newsroom really weren't involved at all on the 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:59.440 business side. There was people talked about the wall between them. Uh. 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.760 You know are certain things where we we don't share 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:04.560 with them, but there are other things where we actually 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.920 have to collaborate. So you know, fundamentally, I think that 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:12.080 UM technology has just changed the way that we tell stories. Uh. 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.680 And I think I think of it as uh, the 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.719 Internet and all that it is brought about. All digital 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:22.160 platforms now represent a different medium or actually different mediums 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:24.600 for us, in the same way that when radio came 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:26.920 into existence, there was a different way of communicating with 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:28.680 the audience that you didn't just get up there and 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:32.680 read a newspaper story. And when television came along, you 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.320 didn't read a radio script and you didn't read a newspaper. 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.600 There was a different way of communicating with the audience. 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:42.480 So with the Internet. The newspaper industry responded by just 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:46.000 putting up newspaper stories on the Internet, and we expected 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.120 to succeed that way because we just viewed it as 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.719 a distribution platform. Uh. And that didn't really work very well. 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.640 And then we said, well, let's do that faster um, 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:57.400 and that didn't work so well either. And I think 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.480 we're coming to the recognition that this is a different 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.560 medium or different mediums uh. And we have to tell 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.279 stories in completely different ways. But you also have to 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.080 track the attention. And I'm just curious. I mean, Marty 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:11.320 Baron and clickbait are two things that I would not 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:13.880 put in the same sentence. So how do you How 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.320 do you thank you for that? I appreciate that. Well, 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.120 I don't think we do clickbait, so I think that's testing. 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.240 We do a b testing, but that's not clickbait. I mean, 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.160 there are you know. I was asked a few weeks ago, 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.039 how do you I was actually in Spain for speaking engagement, 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.840 and the students there asked me, how do you get 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.080 people to read beyond the headlines? I said, write a 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.360 goo to headline, uh, and then they'll read more. Uh. 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.559 And that's not clickbait. That is, we can write about 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:45.120 very substantive matters, very serious matters, but we don't have 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.400 to write about them in a stuffy way. And we 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:52.320 can certainly write about them using a more conversational, accessible style, 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:54.960 which I think is suitable for the web. And there's 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.640 what we are trying to do with at the Washington Post, 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.240 and not just doing it in a different style, but 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:02.480 using all the tools that are now available to us, 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:07.880 so uh, displaying social media, using audio, using video, using 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:13.920 original documents, annotating those original documents, uh, incorporating interactivity with graphics, 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.560 and in all sorts of other ways. Those are tools 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:18.800 that we can use to better tell stories. And there's 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:20.440 no reason that we shouldn't do that. And I guess 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.080 clickbate Sorry brands want every one more follow up? I 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.279 think clickbait. I guess can notes, uh, you know, enticing 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.719 someone to click something and then not delivering. But I 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.919 did have an interesting conversation that maybe a year or so, Marty, 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.040 with your boss Fred Ryan, who told me that when 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:39.000 there was a headline about succession in Saudi Arabia, nobody clicked, 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.160 but then when you changed it to Game of Thrones 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:46.760 in Saudi Arabia. Suddenly everybody clicked on that story, so 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.800 it's thrones actually applies in that country. By the way, 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.680 But would you say it, it's really pushed you to 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.680 be more creative in terms of how you attract consumers 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.000 to the stories you're telling. You. I think it has 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:02.680 it's it's it's pushed us to be more creative. It's 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.039 pushed us to be more colloquial. It's pushed us to 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.239 talk in the way that other people talk, that ordinary 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.560 people talk. Uh, And look, I mean newspapers have a 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.240 very structured style. We all, all of us who got 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:15.440 into the business, we sort of learned that style. It 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.200 was appropriate to that particular medium. And by the way, 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.520 the headlines for newspapers were designed to fit into the 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:25.559 space that was permitted. So you would have were short 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:30.040 words like somebody eyed something and somebody molds something. Nobody 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.720 talks that way. Nobody talks about eyeing something and mulling 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:35.120 something and things like that, And those were words that 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.400 were designed to fit. They didn't use articles like the 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:41.240 and a and and and things like that. Those were 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:43.600 thrown out. Well, now we can write headlines in the 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:47.360 way that people ordinarily speak. People can identify with that. 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.280 The style of writing I think is it sounds more authentic. 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:53.720 I believe it is more authentic. It's more reflective of 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:55.600 the voice of the author. You have a better sense 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.960 of the personality of the author. And I think that 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.160 that's all a good thing. I mean, this question be 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:01.920 for both of you. I mean one change that I 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.080 think technology is wrought is that, particularly on social media, 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.880 reporters feel a lot more comfortable using the first person 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:13.920 singular and expressing opinions. When and where does that cross 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.560 the line into bias as opposed to just having a 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.920 distinctive voice. Well, I think that's very hard to define, 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.000 and it's it is risky territory. I think people want 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:27.960 to use social media Twitter, Facebook, other read it wherever 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:32.040 it might be to reflect who they are, give give 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:34.719 readers a sense of who they are as persons, that 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:38.920 it's not a nameless, faceless institution there. Uh. But um, 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.560 they have to be careful that they not go out 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.920 and express opinions that they would not be allowed to 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:48.520 express actually on in a conventional news story. Uh, And 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.400 that is that is tricky. I don't know exactly where 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.160 the line is, but I know that we're being monitored 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:59.040 all the time by political factions out there. Uh, And 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:01.360 we hear from pell when they feel that we've crossed 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.559 that line. And we always were always constantly evaluating that, 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.319 and from time to time we have to remind people 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.440 that they need to restrain themselves. But it seems to 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.439 me that people do want a point of view increasingly, 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:19.520 and and that reporters are acting generally more like calumnists 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.920 these days. Um, And I think that must be tricky, 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.160 but it also I think the market is demanding it 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.840 in some ways, don't you think, Marty, Yeah, to some degree. 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:29.560 And I think, as I said, I think people want 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:31.760 more authenticity. They want to know who you are. They 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:36.120 don't want just some anodyne presence on on on the 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.560 web or on other digital report Well maybe I don't 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:41.719 want to take it out on They do quite a 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:47.680 good job, but that, um they. I think there's a 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:52.719 difference between let's say, providing analysis, being honest with your 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:58.040 readers about what your conclusions are based on actual factual reporting, 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:00.400 as opposed to just going out the next wresting an 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:05.000 opinion and taking sides. I mean, today we launched or 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.200 this will be last week we launched Briefing, which is 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:13.120 The Information's first commentary product. And for years our subscribers 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:17.400 wanted not just our unique articles, but the opinions of 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.440 the reporter who's covered Google for ten years on what 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:24.600 Google just announced. And we waited a long We waited 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.640 three years to offer it because I wanted to be 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.199 able to offer a product where we had enough reporters 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.680 we could get some breath and expertise. So we have 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:38.040 now in its live today um last week Briefing dot 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:40.800 the Information dot com our first stab at this. It's 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:44.120 you know, our reporters take on the day's news. And 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:47.040 I was leary because I think there's so much just 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.439 punditry and opinion or sense that to be a great 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:52.280 journalist you have to have a brand. So you have 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.560 to be have a like brand for journalism as a personality. 0:10:56.160 --> 0:11:00.600 It's trustworthiness, knowledge, sort of influence based on your experience 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.200 as a reporter. So I'm interested to see where it 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.719 goes for us. Let's talk about fake news? Can we? 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:09.080 I mean, is there anything that can be done about 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:11.960 all these fake news stories? I know that I interviewed 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:14.640 the guy who started Craigslist, Craig Newmark, who is here 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.760 actually Hi, Craig, wherever you are, and he gave a 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.800 million dollars to the Point Institute to try to figure 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.000 out like should there be a good housekeeping feel of 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:27.320 approval or something along those lines so a consumer can 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:32.000 understand that certain journalistic practices were followed in the creation 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:34.960 of a story. Where do you see that going, Marty, 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:37.760 And is there anything that can be done about it? 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.800 Because some of them are so artfully done, it really 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.760 is hard to tell the difference. Well, I you know, 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:45.600 it's hard to It's hard to answer. I think it's 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.760 a difficult challenge. Probably the greatest challenge that we face 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.199 in the industry at the moment is that there are 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:57.520 media outlets that are propagating falsehoods, that are propagating dangerous 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:01.360 conspiracy theories all of that. Um. Look, I mean from 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:02.840 our standpoint, I think we just have to do our 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.120 job and rooted in the reporting. We also do fact 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:10.560 checks uh constantly, um. And we have an inordinate number 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.040 of fact checks on the President at the moment, uh 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.160 and that will probably continue for quite some time, but 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.480 also on what other people are what other people are saying. Now, 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:21.280 the problem is that people who are aligned with a 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.240 certain political point of view, are not moved by these 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.839 fact checks. In fact, they view these fact checks as 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.200 part of the conspiracy, as part of an effort to 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:34.120 suppress what they're hearing from other outlets. Uh, it is 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.080 a it is a huge challenge. I do think that 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.800 the social media companies have a responsibility here, which I 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.400 think they are beginning to recognize and still beginning to 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.200 grapple with. And that would include Google and Facebook and 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.080 Twitter and some of the other they ought to be 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:52.760 doing that they're not doing today. Well, I'm not entirely sure. 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.040 I mean, I think that they they've already taken some 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:59.319 steps to reduce the economic incentives for people to spread falsehoods. 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.160 I think that's a that's a good first step. Uh. 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:06.080 They've in Facebook has incorporated fact checks onto its site. 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:08.360 I think that's at a very nascent stage and a 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.000 very urgent, uncertain stage. You know. I think they're very 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.600 sensitive to the free speech issues, and I'm sensitive to 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.520 the free speech issues, and I'm sure you are as well. Um, 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.360 but it's also dangerous not to do anything about it. 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:22.920 And so I think we're at a very early stage 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:24.600 where people are trying to figure out how do we 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:26.520 how do we grapple with this. You know, there's another 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.200 definition of fake news, which is not stories that are inaccurate. 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:33.400 It's stories that the administration doesn't agree with, even if 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.360 they are. That's how they that's that's how they define 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.480 fake news. And so how do you combat that or 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.719 at least the perception among you of the country that 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:45.800 if you write something critical of the president, you're propagating 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:50.000 fake information. Yeah, it's a tough one. Um. I think 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:51.920 that we have to be more transparent, and I think 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.760 that's where the industry is going right now. Certainly what 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.760 Google is pushing with its trust prom with it's not 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.480 really Google's project, but there's a trust project Google is 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:04.280 helping to support. I think it's what David Farrenhold, who 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:06.200 just won the pull ups are at the Post did 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:11.280 with his investigation of Trump's charitable activities or lack thereof, 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.320 as you as you noted, uh, is that he actually 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.640 opened up his investigation to the public. He said, who 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:18.760 else should I call? What else should I look at? 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:20.800 Here are my notes? He actually took a picture of 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.720 his handwritten notes, put them up on Twitter and said, 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.720 here's my list. Who else do? Where? Where else should 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.960 I go? And he enlisted the public and his investigation, 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.680 and that was a very transparent process. And I think 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:35.000 we have to do more of that. I think that 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.840 we have to make sure that we include original documents. 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.280 I think that we have to h include audio of 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.600 our interviews. I think that we have to, uh, you know, 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.040 do all those kinds of things, talk a bit more 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:50.160 about how we went about our work. I'm not saying 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:54.040 that's a total answer, it's a possible answer. I wonder 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.720 how effective you know, Donald Trump was so affected during 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.920 the course of campaign. Of the campaign sort of ripped 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.680 eating these mantras like crooked Hillary or what was Marco Rubio? 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.200 He was Marco, you know, blah blah blah. But but 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:12.480 I think he was actually incredibly smart about kind of 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:16.800 the repetitive nature of these monikers. And when he does 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.320 that about the news media fake news. I mean, I 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.040 think there's a method to the madness. And I'm curious 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:27.800 if you feel he his de legitimization of the news 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:33.800 media is going to start actually almost seeping in subconsciously 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:38.200 into the minds of consumers so that they have even 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:42.680 it's going to increase the mistrust that already exists. Well, 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.040 it's evident that that's already happened. I think he's actually 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.680 achieved some of his goals in that regard. There was 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.680 a Quinnipiac poll that showed that something like of Republicans 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.640 now believe that certain media outlets are the enemy of 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:56.840 the people. Uh. There was just a poll that I 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.320 saw this this morning that has over a third of 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:04.080 Republican now believe that, uh, a free press can can 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:08.480 be more dangerous, can actually be dangerous. I think that's 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.520 very concerning now. Thankfully Democrats don't see it that way. 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.880 Independence don't see it that way. But I think it's 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:19.240 a it's a it's having a seriously corrosive effect on 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.320 our credibility and I think ultimately on the democratic system 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:27.720 that in this country we do our jobs. I think that, uh, 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:29.400 you know, the day in and day out, we just 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.720 have to do our jobs. We have to present actual evidence, 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.320 we have to be transparent. I like to remind people 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.160 that during Watergate, I was in high school at the time, 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:41.000 but the press, the popularity, the approval of the press 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.560 was at a very low state. Uh. The Washington Post 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.640 was doing the investigation, other media outlets were doing their investigation. 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.600 Was the press was held in extremely low regard. The 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:53.400 press was under constant attack from the Nixon administration. Spirag 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.600 knew his his first vice president was constantly going after 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.680 the press. You know, we had that ati is um 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.080 uh was one phrase, but there were worse. It was 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.760 very illiterative, but not very not very elegant. Uh And 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:10.680 but he had other more harsh words. And of course 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.560 there was an enemy's list and all that, you know, 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.760 uh Lee investigations and all that sort of thing that 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:21.640 seemed very familiar today. But after it was over, when 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.520 Nixon had to resign, when the public knew that their 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:28.320 president really wasn't crook, the popularity of the press really 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.000 rose because it showed that the press had actually been 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.679 doing its job, doing it courageously, doing it accurately, and 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.080 doing it in spite of this demonization by the White House. 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:43.800 We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.120 though with more from Marty Baron and Jessica Lesson right 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:59.119 after Brian reads these ads. So as a reminder, in 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:01.440 our next couple episd ssodes, you'll hear from Sheila Evans, 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.679 who is the president of HBO Documentary Films, and also 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.520 Christy Todd Whitman, who was the first female governor of 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.920 New Jersey and the former head of the e p 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.719 A under President George W. Bush. And of course, as always, 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:16.960 we want to hear from you guys, so please call us. 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.840 We'll leave a message with your questions for Sheila Evans 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.160 and Christy Whitman. Can I do the phone number please? 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.560 Of course that's nine to nine, two to four four 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.480 six three seven. Again, that number is nine to nine 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.639 two to four four six three seven. And if you 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:34.680 call in the next thirty minutes you get a set 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:38.960 of GINSU knives. I sounded a little like one of 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.840 those ladies, you know, an infomercial. No, not an infomercial 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.280 like on a sex line. Yeah, we won't tell. We 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.679 won't tell people about that part of your career. What 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:55.199 are you wearing? Okay? All right, and now back to 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.240 our interview with Marty Barren and Jessica Lesson. You know, 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.720 it's interesting Silicon Valley is home to some of the 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:05.719 only institutions that people still seem to respect, even as 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:10.040 you know, the media goes down in public estimation corporations 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.159 Washington d C. Do you think there's gonna be a 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.320 point at which sort of tech gazillionaires are going to 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:20.120 become the new Wall Street bankers who are reviled rather 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:22.440 than celebrated. But I think it's happening. I mean, look 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:28.600 at Ubert right, Um, a company that's a Silicon Valley darling. Um. 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.760 But you know, really in a spate of bad press, 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.840 many of it of their own making, I believe, But 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.560 I do think that there is a I do think 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.720 tech CEOs are are the new bankers. And if you 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:46.600 look at how um, you know some of these really young, 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:50.800 wealthy billionaires are treated, um and the scrutiny they get 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.840 much of it deserved. Um. You know, there's an interesting 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.600 It's it's nice being out on the East Coast and 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:59.480 out of the Silicon Valley bubble. And I planned here 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.840 in the heartland of Manhattan where I know, and then 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.040 I'm going to d C next week or later this week, 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.240 I'll be at another bubble. But um, look, I think 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:13.080 that there's still It's fascinating to me how outside of 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:16.400 Silicon Valley the valley is viewed and um, there's no 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.560 doubt that right now, I think there's a big gap, 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:23.160 and there's in the sense that the valley is viewed 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:28.719 as people are curious, maybe a bit worried about it 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.960 coming to encroach on their turf um and tech companies, 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:33.920 but also a lot of sense that, you know, we're 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.919 living in another planet with self driving cars and disconnected 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:38.920 from reality, and I think there's a lot of truth 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.159 to that. My advice to to the entrepreneurs in Silicon 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.679 Valley is like, wake up and change your tone a 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:47.560 little bit about how you're talking about things like jobs. 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:52.320 You know, Techy's gloat about reducing jobs, right, and and 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:55.760 that's obviously I don't think the right narrative. So I 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:58.560 think we're probably even only at the beginning of the backlash. 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.440 Let's take a brain interlude and talked to you, Marty 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.600 about your background. Um, you grew up in Florida, You're 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.080 the son of immigrants. I know that you worked on 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:11.160 your high school newspaper, your college newspaper, Lehigh, Right, So 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:14.320 what drew you to this business? And one of the 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:20.119 biggest changes you've witnessed since you got into the business. Uh, well, 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:22.080 you know what drew it to me was I wasn't 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:23.960 a family that had come to the United States. They 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.600 were keenly interested in what was happening in this country. 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.080 Where they had arrived. They were keenly interested in what 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:31.680 was happening around the world. We had a news news 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:35.399 habit in the household newspaper every day, the local newspaper, 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:37.440 which was the only one that you could get at 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:41.080 that time. Uh, the national news with the Huntley Brinkley 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.800 Report at the time, and then local news and then 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:46.919 Time magazine every week. And that was just part of it. 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.280 And we would talk about that and and they were 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.080 keenly interested. So I became interested in all of that. 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:55.760 You know, the changes are there's so many changes. I mean, 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:58.359 obviously the Internet has been the most dramatic change. I mean, 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:02.000