WEBVTT - Scrubbing Carbon from the Air 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.276 Pushkin. The other day I spoke with Dan Friedman. He's 0:00:23.316 --> 0:00:26.756 the CEO of a company called Carbon Engineering. Maybe we 0:00:26.796 --> 0:00:30.876 could start with what's happening out in Texas, Like, there's 0:00:30.916 --> 0:00:34.876 actually somebody's building something big in Texas and you're mixed 0:00:34.916 --> 0:00:36.356 up with it in a good way, right, tell me 0:00:36.396 --> 0:00:37.396 what's happening in Texas. 0:00:37.476 --> 0:00:39.796 Yes, and in Texas happened big. That's the good part 0:00:39.796 --> 0:00:46.036 about Texas. Yeah. We are building well. Our partner is 0:00:46.116 --> 0:00:50.956 building our first commercial scale plant. Just broke ground about 0:00:51.156 --> 0:00:55.556 a couple of weeks ago, and all the big pieces 0:00:55.556 --> 0:00:59.396 of equipment are under order, which is, you know, quite substantial. 0:00:59.436 --> 0:01:03.316 We got all our permits, took about a year, and 0:01:03.356 --> 0:01:05.876 the road's been put in place. It's just a big 0:01:06.236 --> 0:01:11.596 bunch of desert with some shrubs. And yeah, construction has started. 0:01:12.236 --> 0:01:15.276 Construction has started on a billion dollar project that will 0:01:15.316 --> 0:01:19.516 be by far the biggest plant ever built to suck 0:01:19.596 --> 0:01:27.956 carbon dioxide directly out of the atmosphere. I'm Jacob Goldstein, 0:01:27.996 --> 0:01:31.156 and this is what's your problem. Carbon engineering is at 0:01:31.156 --> 0:01:35.396 the frontier of an infant industry called direct air capture, 0:01:35.716 --> 0:01:40.716 as in directly capturing carbon dioxide from the air. Direct 0:01:40.716 --> 0:01:43.236 air capture won't be able to solve climate change on 0:01:43.316 --> 0:01:46.236 its own. There's no way we could capture anywhere near 0:01:46.316 --> 0:01:48.596 enough carbon to do that, but it might help at 0:01:48.596 --> 0:01:51.796 the margin, pulling hundreds of millions of tons of carbon 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:54.316 out of the atmosphere every year to buy us some 0:01:54.476 --> 0:01:57.876 time as industry is decarbonized over the next few decades. 0:01:58.556 --> 0:02:01.716 To get there, the direct air capture industry needs to 0:02:01.756 --> 0:02:05.116 solve a bunch of problems, including how to bring the 0:02:05.156 --> 0:02:08.556 price of direct air capture way down, and also how 0:02:08.596 --> 0:02:12.196 to convince companies and governments to pay for sucking carbon 0:02:12.196 --> 0:02:14.356 out of the air. I talked about both of those 0:02:14.356 --> 0:02:16.916 problems with Dan, but to start, we talked about what 0:02:17.156 --> 0:02:22.596 exactly he's building out in the Texas Desert. Let's say 0:02:22.596 --> 0:02:24.156 it's two years from now and you and I drive 0:02:24.156 --> 0:02:26.556 out to this spot in the middle of Texas and 0:02:27.196 --> 0:02:30.196 you've just turned it on, the thing is working. What's 0:02:30.196 --> 0:02:31.836 actually going to be happened? Well, first of all, we 0:02:31.916 --> 0:02:34.036 get there, what do we see. What's it look like? 0:02:34.116 --> 0:02:36.956 Okay, so you know, when when you build any direct 0:02:37.116 --> 0:02:41.516 air capture facility, you've got to process a lot of air. 0:02:41.676 --> 0:02:44.076 So the main thing you see in all of them 0:02:44.796 --> 0:02:47.836 is what's what we call an air contactor, which is 0:02:47.876 --> 0:02:50.996 a fancy name for a huge box with a huge 0:02:51.076 --> 0:02:54.556 fan that's drawing air through the contents of the box. 0:02:54.636 --> 0:02:57.916 So it's a giant box fan like the one I 0:02:57.916 --> 0:02:59.596 have in my living room, but way bigger. 0:02:59.876 --> 0:03:02.756 How big A couple of stories with stories, okay, so 0:03:02.796 --> 0:03:04.876 you know it looks like it looks like a small 0:03:05.636 --> 0:03:08.036 a small apartment. You know, I've quite a small apartment, 0:03:08.036 --> 0:03:11.876 but it's still like couple of stories, and you know 0:03:11.956 --> 0:03:13.276 the width of a narrow house. 0:03:13.516 --> 0:03:13.836 Okay. 0:03:13.956 --> 0:03:16.316 The fan is right on the roof of it. Okay, 0:03:16.476 --> 0:03:19.396 So the fan turns on and air is drawn in 0:03:19.476 --> 0:03:23.116 from the sides and goes up the top. So you 0:03:23.156 --> 0:03:28.396 would see about seventy of those in two years when 0:03:28.436 --> 0:03:30.716 this is done, lined up in rows. 0:03:31.076 --> 0:03:34.956 So danisying, there would be seventy of these apartment sized 0:03:34.996 --> 0:03:38.756 fan buildings, like a little subdivision out there in the desert. 0:03:39.236 --> 0:03:41.076 The fans suck in the air and then they have 0:03:41.116 --> 0:03:45.236 this liquid that binds to the carbon dioxide. And one 0:03:45.276 --> 0:03:47.516 of the things I'd heard Dan talk about in other 0:03:47.756 --> 0:03:51.796 interviews is that the chemistry this part of removing carbon 0:03:51.876 --> 0:03:55.436 from the air is actually pretty straightforward. But what's hard 0:03:55.876 --> 0:03:59.916 is removing it efficiently because of how little carbon dioxide 0:03:59.956 --> 0:04:02.756 is in the air, Like carbon dioxide is way less 0:04:02.796 --> 0:04:04.836 than one percent of the atmosphere. 0:04:05.236 --> 0:04:08.396 It's very, very tiny, and that's what makes it so 0:04:08.676 --> 0:04:13.156 hard because you you have to touch so much air 0:04:13.276 --> 0:04:15.436 to get at the little tiny you know, mining a 0:04:15.476 --> 0:04:20.396 tiny bit amount from the air. And traditionally, you know, 0:04:20.436 --> 0:04:24.116 people have been extracting carbon dioxide from the air for 0:04:24.156 --> 0:04:27.036 a long time. If you recall the Apollo thirteen movie, 0:04:27.636 --> 0:04:30.836 they were suffocating from breeding their own carbon dioxide, and 0:04:30.916 --> 0:04:32.236 in a couple of hours they built that. 0:04:32.596 --> 0:04:34.916 And just to be clear, that's the Houston We've got 0:04:34.956 --> 0:04:37.556 a problem. Yes, their problem was that there was too 0:04:37.636 --> 0:04:40.076 much carbon dioxide in their in their space capsule. 0:04:40.276 --> 0:04:43.236 Yeah, their director capture machine in there. The little one 0:04:43.396 --> 0:04:46.116 wasn't working, so they were suffocating in their own so 0:04:46.156 --> 0:04:49.556 they built one and they scrabbed it out. So the 0:04:49.756 --> 0:04:52.476 hard part, and that's what's unique about what we're doing. 0:04:52.516 --> 0:04:55.516 The hard part is to pull a million tons of 0:04:55.676 --> 0:04:58.996 carbon dioxide out of the air. So it's all about 0:04:59.236 --> 0:05:01.276 how much we have to do. It's not about doing it. 0:05:01.316 --> 0:05:03.956 The doing it is not that hard, but doing a 0:05:03.996 --> 0:05:05.876 lot of it is incredibly challenging. 0:05:06.396 --> 0:05:07.716 So it's a scaling problem. 0:05:07.796 --> 0:05:11.916 It's coming up with a process that will scale and 0:05:11.996 --> 0:05:15.156 that want use so much energy and materials that it 0:05:15.236 --> 0:05:18.116 becomes useless. Right, so we need to be net negative, 0:05:18.196 --> 0:05:21.116 not net positive. So the challenge is, you know, is 0:05:21.156 --> 0:05:24.236 how much power do you use doing this? And how 0:05:24.316 --> 0:05:27.036 much steel do you use to build these air contacts 0:05:27.076 --> 0:05:31.396 and so on, and how do you scale that smartly? 0:05:31.956 --> 0:05:34.996 So in the end you are net negative, which is 0:05:35.236 --> 0:05:36.396 what the business is all about. 0:05:36.756 --> 0:05:38.676 How long do you have to run the plant do 0:05:38.716 --> 0:05:43.076 you estimate before it will capture all of the carbon 0:05:43.116 --> 0:05:45.436 that was emitted to build the plant and to build 0:05:45.476 --> 0:05:46.676 all of the materials in the plant. 0:05:46.996 --> 0:05:50.956 I don't have that figure, but it's because it depends 0:05:51.116 --> 0:05:53.996 who the final contractors are and their footprints and so on. 0:05:54.276 --> 0:05:57.356 It's similar to electric cars. It's not significance a few 0:05:57.356 --> 0:05:59.356 months and their I year for sure. 0:05:59.836 --> 0:06:03.636 So Okay, you get the plant up and running, you're 0:06:03.716 --> 0:06:06.516 sucking carbon dioxi out of the air. So far, so good. 0:06:06.876 --> 0:06:10.116 But now you've got tons of carbon dioxide and you 0:06:10.156 --> 0:06:12.116 have to do something with it, right. 0:06:12.596 --> 0:06:14.636 Yeah, you know, that's that's the hard part that it 0:06:14.636 --> 0:06:17.196 alver forget. What we do is we hand it to 0:06:17.516 --> 0:06:20.196 the world's expert on how to deal with carbon dioxide. 0:06:20.276 --> 0:06:25.116 Occidental our partner who has you know, been burying carbon 0:06:25.116 --> 0:06:26.956 dioxide for a lot of years to. 0:06:26.916 --> 0:06:29.836 Be clear, that's Occidental Petroleum, the big oil company. 0:06:29.876 --> 0:06:32.796 Yes. Yeah, they are the companies that understand how to 0:06:32.876 --> 0:06:37.476 handle carbon dioxide. So what they do is they bury 0:06:37.556 --> 0:06:42.076 that carbon dioxide safely underground according to the US government regulations, 0:06:42.436 --> 0:06:45.396 so that it's permanently stored, meaning that it's scanteed for 0:06:45.396 --> 0:06:47.716 at least one hundred years to be underground. 0:06:47.956 --> 0:06:52.956 So Occidental is they're an investor in carbon engineering. They're 0:06:52.956 --> 0:06:56.196 on the board, right, and they're they're the ones building 0:06:56.236 --> 0:07:00.876 this biggest in the world by far, direct air capture plants, right, 0:07:00.916 --> 0:07:01.876 They're the one paying for it. 0:07:01.996 --> 0:07:02.196 Yes? 0:07:02.756 --> 0:07:03.396 Is that is that? 0:07:03.476 --> 0:07:03.796 Yes? 0:07:03.916 --> 0:07:07.556 Yeah? Well why is why is Occidental Petroleum doing this? 0:07:08.036 --> 0:07:09.876 Where are they paying all this? And they're the ones 0:07:09.916 --> 0:07:11.916 spending a billion dollars to do it? Right? 0:07:12.236 --> 0:07:15.316 They were trying to figure out how to become net 0:07:15.436 --> 0:07:18.876 zero meaning net zero in their own production, net zero 0:07:19.396 --> 0:07:22.596 in everything they subcontract and buy, and net zero, and 0:07:22.716 --> 0:07:24.996 what the customers like you and I would burn so 0:07:25.196 --> 0:07:31.156 all the emissions, and they decided to use this to 0:07:31.236 --> 0:07:35.876 decarbonize themselves. And then they said, whoa, we can offer 0:07:35.916 --> 0:07:37.676 this as a solution for other people that don't know 0:07:37.716 --> 0:07:40.796 how to do this, for them to decarbonize like airlines. 0:07:41.916 --> 0:07:43.676 It was a period took a period of years to 0:07:43.756 --> 0:07:48.396 develop to the point where it is now. And so 0:07:48.436 --> 0:07:51.276 they went from being a partner to being a customer 0:07:51.316 --> 0:07:54.316 to also being a part owner and then to being 0:07:54.356 --> 0:07:58.676 a deployment partner of all this thing. And they're trying 0:07:58.756 --> 0:08:06.196 to make this their next business after oil is done, basically. 0:08:05.876 --> 0:08:09.676 Basically selling carbon removal as a service. Let me ask 0:08:09.716 --> 0:08:11.876 you a question. You said in there that Occidental wants 0:08:11.916 --> 0:08:14.676 to be net zero? Why do they want to be 0:08:14.756 --> 0:08:17.076 net zero? And like in particular, given that you know, 0:08:17.116 --> 0:08:20.756 they have an obligation to their shareholders to maximize profits, 0:08:21.076 --> 0:08:24.236 Like why are they spending a billion dollars to the 0:08:24.276 --> 0:08:26.596 extent it's for them to be net zero? Like why 0:08:26.676 --> 0:08:28.436 is that a sensible thing for them to do? 0:08:28.596 --> 0:08:30.316 You know that kind of gets the heart of this 0:08:30.396 --> 0:08:33.956 whole problem. You know, it's not just Occidental. Microsoft wants 0:08:33.996 --> 0:08:35.716 to be in net zero. Amazon wants to be in 0:08:35.756 --> 0:08:39.516 net zero. Air travel wants to be net zero. Most 0:08:39.556 --> 0:08:44.116 of ninety odd percent of the world GDP has set 0:08:44.116 --> 0:08:46.836 a target to be net zero. So I think everybody's 0:08:46.916 --> 0:08:51.356 realizing Occidental included that in order to survive in the 0:08:51.396 --> 0:08:54.156 long term, we need to get to net zero. So 0:08:55.036 --> 0:08:57.636 at some point, I think society is going to say, well, 0:08:57.956 --> 0:09:00.396 if you're not net zero, you're not in business. 0:09:00.716 --> 0:09:03.276 So the sort of the financial case for getting to 0:09:03.316 --> 0:09:08.396 net zero is the assumption that policy governments will basically 0:09:08.476 --> 0:09:11.716 force companies to be net zero, like that's the or 0:09:11.756 --> 0:09:14.476 customers or customers right right, they will say we will 0:09:14.476 --> 0:09:19.196 only do business with a net zero support. 0:09:19.636 --> 0:09:21.676 You know. I think it goes deeper in terms of 0:09:21.716 --> 0:09:24.076 their management team that they're just committed to kind of 0:09:24.156 --> 0:09:28.236 lead the whole oil sector to get there, just recognizing 0:09:28.276 --> 0:09:31.956 that this has to happen. And in the end it's 0:09:31.956 --> 0:09:34.236 good for shareholders because if you keep your head in 0:09:34.276 --> 0:09:37.516 the sand, then eventually people don't buy from you one 0:09:37.556 --> 0:09:38.156 way or another. 0:09:39.076 --> 0:09:43.476 Yeah, I mean, I will say, given the history of 0:09:43.676 --> 0:09:49.676 oil companies behavior with respect to climate change, I'm wary 0:09:49.956 --> 0:09:54.476 of their involvement at some level, like just based on 0:09:55.356 --> 0:10:00.036 the fact that they knew that emissions were driving climate change, 0:10:00.076 --> 0:10:03.996 and they obfuscated that fact. Not occidental specifically, but that 0:10:04.156 --> 0:10:07.276 was clearly a widespread practice in the industry, and so 0:10:08.396 --> 0:10:10.276 it makes me some what weary of their involvement. 0:10:10.396 --> 0:10:12.636 Now, yeah, you know, I can't comment on that. All 0:10:12.636 --> 0:10:15.836 I can tell you is that when you scour the 0:10:15.916 --> 0:10:20.276 planet to find somebody that can deal with a megaton 0:10:20.316 --> 0:10:22.036 a year coming out of one plant, and then a 0:10:22.116 --> 0:10:24.676 thousand megatons a year coming out of one thousand plants, 0:10:25.996 --> 0:10:29.076 only the oil companies can do that, for better or worse. 0:10:29.436 --> 0:10:31.356 Huh you mean in terms of how do you stick 0:10:31.396 --> 0:10:32.956 it back in the ground. Yeah, you're the only ones 0:10:32.956 --> 0:10:36.516 who know at vast scale, how do stick carbon dioxide 0:10:36.556 --> 0:10:37.156 back in the ground. 0:10:37.716 --> 0:10:40.596 Yeah, and understand the underground. They've been mapping the underground 0:10:40.636 --> 0:10:43.556 for fifty years. They understand. Any country you go to, 0:10:43.596 --> 0:10:47.516 the oil companies the only people that understand what's under there, 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:49.876 how to operate under there, how to keep it under 0:10:49.876 --> 0:10:52.476 there and not have it leak out. If you want 0:10:52.476 --> 0:10:55.876 to do this at scale, you've got to go to 0:10:55.916 --> 0:10:58.316 the world's experts, and the world experts that have been 0:10:58.356 --> 0:11:00.876 looking at what goes underground with the geology. Because of 0:11:00.916 --> 0:11:03.316 the oil business. Are the oil companies, there's nobody else. 0:11:03.356 --> 0:11:06.916 Yeah, No, it is interesting the way this is, you're 0:11:06.956 --> 0:11:09.116 basically running the oil business in revert. 0:11:09.436 --> 0:11:09.596 Right. 0:11:09.636 --> 0:11:13.956 For one hundred plus years, they have been digging hydrocarbons 0:11:13.996 --> 0:11:16.756 out of the ground, and then we've been burning them, 0:11:16.796 --> 0:11:18.596 and they've been going the carbon dioxide's been going into 0:11:18.596 --> 0:11:21.036 the atmosphere, and now it's like, okay, let's just it's 0:11:21.036 --> 0:11:22.796 like on the It's like on my power drill at home. 0:11:22.836 --> 0:11:24.476 You know, you push the button one way and it 0:11:24.556 --> 0:11:26.196 drills in, and then you push it the other way 0:11:26.236 --> 0:11:26.916 and it drills out. 0:11:26.996 --> 0:11:29.636 Right, like exactly, it we got to I think the 0:11:29.636 --> 0:11:31.076 saying goes, we got to put it back where it 0:11:31.116 --> 0:11:34.916 came from. Yeah, and you know, anything else is mucking 0:11:35.036 --> 0:11:37.436 around with this natural system and I don't know what 0:11:37.476 --> 0:11:40.276 the output of that would be, but this is pretty straightforward. 0:11:40.316 --> 0:11:42.356 We just put it back, bring the carbon back down, 0:11:43.196 --> 0:11:44.916 and everything should return to normal. 0:11:45.396 --> 0:11:47.116 Let me ask you one more thing, just on the 0:11:47.116 --> 0:11:50.636 oil company thing, and then we'll leave it. There's basically 0:11:50.716 --> 0:11:54.236 a concern that direct their capture will act as a 0:11:54.236 --> 0:11:58.796 fig leaf to allow for even more emissions, right, and 0:11:58.876 --> 0:12:01.796 it will slow the energy transition that we need. Do 0:12:01.836 --> 0:12:02.356 you buy that? 0:12:02.956 --> 0:12:07.076 No? You know, whoever says that just hasn't done the mass. Yeah, 0:12:07.196 --> 0:12:09.316 this is not going to be an excuse for not 0:12:09.396 --> 0:12:13.396 doing anything else. We already know from very well done 0:12:13.516 --> 0:12:18.516 studies that there's only so much we can do to 0:12:18.596 --> 0:12:21.756 avoid emissions. In the end, you're left with depends who 0:12:21.796 --> 0:12:23.596 you talk to, you're left with somewhere between ten and 0:12:23.636 --> 0:12:27.716 twenty percentage you just cannot avoid. And that's where direct 0:12:27.756 --> 0:12:30.396 their capture comes in. It's the last bit of garbage 0:12:30.436 --> 0:12:32.716 that you can't recycle, you can't do anything about it, 0:12:33.116 --> 0:12:35.476 and you've got to take it out. And that problem 0:12:35.476 --> 0:12:40.236 alone is an immense challenge to think that we could 0:12:40.276 --> 0:12:42.556 do ten times that and have everybody go one in life. 0:12:43.676 --> 0:12:46.676 People just haven't done the math. It's just just not possible. 0:12:46.956 --> 0:12:49.956 And then the other key thing is that if we 0:12:50.116 --> 0:12:53.596 stop today and don't emit another carbon molecule into the air, 0:12:53.916 --> 0:12:56.476 we've already emitted enough that we're going to crash through 0:12:56.476 --> 0:12:58.196 one point five at some point. 0:12:58.036 --> 0:13:00.276 One point five degrees of warming one. 0:13:00.156 --> 0:13:03.076 Point five degrees because it's cumulative, and we've, like you 0:13:03.116 --> 0:13:04.956 just said, we just spent the last hundred years burning 0:13:04.996 --> 0:13:08.996 oil and coal, So you know, at some point beyond 0:13:09.116 --> 0:13:12.156 twenty fifty, we want to bring stuff back down. 0:13:15.636 --> 0:13:17.996 In other words, we don't just need to stop emitting 0:13:18.076 --> 0:13:21.716 carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. We need to reduce the 0:13:21.756 --> 0:13:24.396 amount of carbon dioxide that is already out there in 0:13:24.436 --> 0:13:28.756 the atmosphere. In a minute, the big problem with direct 0:13:28.796 --> 0:13:37.996 air captured, where's the money going to come from. That's 0:13:38.036 --> 0:13:39.996 the end of the ads. Now we're going back to 0:13:40.036 --> 0:13:44.516 the show. Last year, Congress passed and the President signed 0:13:44.516 --> 0:13:49.476 into law the Inflation Reduction Act, an act that confusingly 0:13:49.876 --> 0:13:53.556 did not do much to reduce inflation, but did do 0:13:53.796 --> 0:13:56.996 a lot for direct air capture. Specifically, it said that 0:13:57.036 --> 0:14:01.036 the federal government will use tax credits to basically pay 0:14:01.116 --> 0:14:04.396 companies to suck carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere. 0:14:04.596 --> 0:14:06.796 If we prove to them that we have captured a 0:14:06.876 --> 0:14:09.436 ton of CO two from the air and we've buried 0:14:09.476 --> 0:14:12.956 it up to their requirements, they write your check for 0:14:12.956 --> 0:14:14.916 one hundred and eighty dollars. 0:14:14.516 --> 0:14:17.076 And one hundred and eighty dollars per ton. 0:14:16.956 --> 0:14:20.276 Per ton, so it's one hundred and eighty million per 0:14:20.436 --> 0:14:21.276 million tons. 0:14:21.916 --> 0:14:24.836 And how much this this big plant that you and 0:14:24.876 --> 0:14:26.916 accidental are building in Texas. How much does that pull 0:14:26.956 --> 0:14:28.036 out of the air per year? 0:14:28.756 --> 0:14:31.396 The first plant half a million tons, so that'd be 0:14:31.436 --> 0:14:34.276 like ninety million a year from the US government. And 0:14:34.436 --> 0:14:36.756 you know, the plant would not have happened without the IRA. 0:14:37.676 --> 0:14:40.036 This wouldn't have taken off in any kind of speed 0:14:40.076 --> 0:14:42.876 without the IRA. You just couldn't do it without something 0:14:42.996 --> 0:14:43.356 like that. 0:14:43.796 --> 0:14:45.476 So, if one hundred and eighty dollars per ton is 0:14:45.476 --> 0:14:47.756 the carrot is, what is the cost to you per 0:14:47.796 --> 0:14:49.476 ton on your plant? 0:14:49.676 --> 0:14:55.076 That is confidential, but it's significantly over that today it's more. 0:14:55.196 --> 0:14:59.396 Yeah, And so to be a real viable business, there 0:14:59.436 --> 0:15:01.516 needs to be some combination of getting more than one 0:15:01.556 --> 0:15:06.596 hundred and eighty dollars a ton and or bringing your 0:15:06.636 --> 0:15:07.916 costs down a lot. 0:15:08.036 --> 0:15:10.876 Yeah, but you've put your finger on it. We need 0:15:10.916 --> 0:15:14.916 to bring the cost of production down over time by 0:15:14.956 --> 0:15:19.236 improving the technology and making it more and more efficient. 0:15:19.396 --> 0:15:23.236 And that's really the job of carbon engineering. That's what 0:15:23.276 --> 0:15:24.036 we do for a living. 0:15:24.676 --> 0:15:30.156 Can you give me a specific example of some detail, 0:15:30.276 --> 0:15:35.036 some part of the process, either that you have made 0:15:35.116 --> 0:15:35.916 cheaper or solved. 0:15:35.996 --> 0:15:38.036 Yeah. I think the easiest example, and the one we've 0:15:38.036 --> 0:15:41.796 worked the most done, is Hey, let's get those seventy 0:15:41.836 --> 0:15:42.436 things down. 0:15:42.316 --> 0:15:44.516 To fifty seventy units. 0:15:44.796 --> 0:15:47.796 Yeah, there's seventy units. Let's make the way the whole 0:15:47.836 --> 0:15:49.756 thing is configured, and the way the fan runs and 0:15:50.116 --> 0:15:53.116 so on, and the way we place it to the 0:15:53.156 --> 0:15:55.796 prevailing wind. Let's make that more efficient. So the next 0:15:55.836 --> 0:15:59.396 plant has fifty not seventy. You save yourself a pile 0:15:59.436 --> 0:16:02.356 of steel, You save yourself a pidle of sorbent, you 0:16:02.436 --> 0:16:05.836 use less electricity, it becomes more efficient. 0:16:05.876 --> 0:16:08.156 I mean, that's a way of saying, let's pull out 0:16:08.236 --> 0:16:11.956 more carbon with every thing, right, with every spin of 0:16:11.996 --> 0:16:14.956 the fan. Let's get more carbon right out of the atmosphere. 0:16:15.276 --> 0:16:17.876 And is there an example of how you have done 0:16:17.916 --> 0:16:21.716 that already? I mean, presumably that is the endless quest 0:16:21.836 --> 0:16:25.076 for improved deficiency. Is there just one little example you 0:16:25.116 --> 0:16:27.676 can give of a way you have improved efficiency so far. 0:16:28.676 --> 0:16:31.996 So inside what we call the air contact or where 0:16:32.036 --> 0:16:37.516 the air is flowing through. In our case, the reaction 0:16:37.636 --> 0:16:41.316 is from a very thin film. That film is exposed 0:16:42.076 --> 0:16:44.716 to the air and react to the carbon. So if 0:16:44.716 --> 0:16:47.836 we can pack a honeycomb structure in it, we got 0:16:47.876 --> 0:16:49.716 more surface that the air is going through. 0:16:49.996 --> 0:16:52.956 Wait, is that one. Is that one you've done already? 0:16:53.076 --> 0:16:53.196 Yes? 0:16:53.276 --> 0:16:54.516 Have you already turned it into. 0:16:54.396 --> 0:16:57.156 A honey yes, well not a honeycomb, but yeah. We 0:16:57.716 --> 0:17:01.236 have been improving what we call the fill of the 0:17:01.276 --> 0:17:04.276 air contact or what's inside it for many years, and 0:17:04.316 --> 0:17:07.436 then in the last year before we went to final production, 0:17:08.276 --> 0:17:10.836 we made our own custom filled what we call the 0:17:10.916 --> 0:17:15.476 CE one, and it was twenty percent better. And we're 0:17:15.516 --> 0:17:19.796 now working on the second fill, not going into the 0:17:19.836 --> 0:17:22.076 deck the director capture plan we just talked about, but 0:17:22.116 --> 0:17:24.476 we'll go into the next one and that might be 0:17:24.516 --> 0:17:27.716 another twenty percent and we might be down to fifty 0:17:27.756 --> 0:17:30.196 five fifty six air contact us once we do that. 0:17:31.156 --> 0:17:32.396 What else should we talk about? 0:17:34.716 --> 0:17:37.156 So you know, we know we have to do this, 0:17:38.116 --> 0:17:42.916 and right now our partner is selling these credits. They're available, 0:17:43.196 --> 0:17:46.756 we can go buy them today. But it's not really happening. 0:17:46.836 --> 0:17:48.716 I mean, there's a few sales going on, but it's 0:17:48.836 --> 0:17:51.956 not really happening. And if it was really happening, we'd 0:17:51.956 --> 0:17:55.556 probably be building four plants, not one plant. And that's 0:17:55.636 --> 0:17:59.156 the real challenge that bothers me. How do we make 0:17:59.156 --> 0:18:00.916 this happen. We all know we have to do it, 0:18:01.476 --> 0:18:02.916 but if you and I do it, and nobody else 0:18:02.956 --> 0:18:04.876 does it. We just spend a lot of money and 0:18:04.876 --> 0:18:06.836 accomplish nothing. We need everybody to do it at the 0:18:06.836 --> 0:18:07.716 same time kind of thing. 0:18:08.516 --> 0:18:11.956 But it's a weird product, right, Like you're selling you're 0:18:12.036 --> 0:18:14.756 selling a thing that is like the absence of a 0:18:14.796 --> 0:18:17.796 thing globally, right, Like you're selling a weird product. Nobody 0:18:17.836 --> 0:18:21.596 in the absence of policy, really well, nobody in the 0:18:21.636 --> 0:18:24.836 absence of policy or very different customer demand than we're 0:18:24.876 --> 0:18:30.276 seeing now has to buy your product, like nobody, nobody, nobody, 0:18:30.356 --> 0:18:33.236 And so people aren't going to do it out of 0:18:33.236 --> 0:18:35.676 the goodness of their hearts, right, Like they're just not 0:18:35.836 --> 0:18:38.476 gonna They're not even gonna do it for marketing at 0:18:38.476 --> 0:18:41.756 any meaningful scale. So like, I have to think the 0:18:41.756 --> 0:18:46.636 only way it's gonna work is with way stronger policy levers, 0:18:46.756 --> 0:18:47.916 be they carratter sticks. 0:18:48.116 --> 0:18:51.436 Yeah, that's the key thing. We need to make this 0:18:51.516 --> 0:18:52.636 happen at the scale we need it. 0:18:52.756 --> 0:18:55.916 Yeah, what really has to happen for it to work 0:18:55.956 --> 0:18:58.276 at scale? Like, what is the policy you need for 0:18:58.316 --> 0:19:00.076 this industry to actually be a thing? 0:19:00.276 --> 0:19:02.516 You know where the US is once again taking the 0:19:02.596 --> 0:19:08.316 lead is the governments are one of the largest polluters 0:19:08.316 --> 0:19:11.676 in the world pickarly. About thirty percent of the carbon 0:19:11.676 --> 0:19:14.916 dioxid problem in a country comes from the government operations, 0:19:14.956 --> 0:19:19.156 the military in particular. So the US is pushing policy 0:19:19.236 --> 0:19:24.196 right now compelling government to clean up after itself and 0:19:24.316 --> 0:19:28.116 buy so to the extent that governments begin to buy, 0:19:28.196 --> 0:19:31.516 that would be amazing. So there are many different ways 0:19:31.956 --> 0:19:34.956 in which we can do this. You know, we already 0:19:35.396 --> 0:19:38.476 cleaned up our garbage used to flow down the streets 0:19:38.476 --> 0:19:42.516 and cause plagues. We then cleaned up our rivers, and 0:19:42.556 --> 0:19:43.836 now we've got to clean up the air. 0:19:44.196 --> 0:19:49.236 Yeah, it's interesting thinking of this like a basic hygiene problem, right, 0:19:49.276 --> 0:19:51.756 like water quality. Water quality is an amazing one. Right, 0:19:51.756 --> 0:19:54.356 If you go back one hundred and fifty years, the 0:19:55.116 --> 0:20:00.396 advent of modern sewage systems essentially was like one of 0:20:00.436 --> 0:20:05.596 the great public health breakthroughs in the history of the world. Really, 0:20:05.796 --> 0:20:08.236 and thinking of this in those terms is interesting. 0:20:08.356 --> 0:20:08.476 Right. 0:20:08.516 --> 0:20:11.396 There was a sort of collective action problem. It was 0:20:11.436 --> 0:20:16.476 a kind of early government doing something other than fighting wars. 0:20:16.636 --> 0:20:18.476 Like this reminds me a little bit of that when 0:20:18.476 --> 0:20:19.876 you put it that way, right, this is like a 0:20:19.876 --> 0:20:23.036 global version of sewage collection. Yes, with similar things. 0:20:23.396 --> 0:20:25.316 The hard part about this one is you know, when 0:20:25.396 --> 0:20:28.556 when the sewer is running down the street or the river, 0:20:28.636 --> 0:20:31.796 I can see it's in my backyard, and unfortunate climate 0:20:31.876 --> 0:20:34.996 is not in my backyard, or is in everybody's backyard. Yeah, 0:20:35.076 --> 0:20:36.316 so it's harder, but you. 0:20:36.196 --> 0:20:39.396 Know, yeah, there's a collective action problem here, right, Like 0:20:40.076 --> 0:20:42.876 London cleans up as sewage, London is better off, right, 0:20:42.956 --> 0:20:45.036 But if London is the only one taking carbon out 0:20:45.036 --> 0:20:47.956 of the atmosphere, nobody's going to be better off. 0:20:47.996 --> 0:20:48.236 That's it. 0:20:48.156 --> 0:20:49.516 It makes it a much harder problem. 0:20:50.156 --> 0:20:53.836 But that's it. Just you know, when when we first 0:20:53.876 --> 0:20:56.236 cleaned up the sewers, it was really your neighborhood. When 0:20:56.236 --> 0:20:58.796 we cleaned up the rivers, it was quite a big neighborhood. 0:20:58.836 --> 0:21:01.476 And now it's the whole planet. We got to expand 0:21:01.476 --> 0:21:02.476 to the whole planet. Yeah. 0:21:02.756 --> 0:21:15.196 Yeah, we'll be back in a minute with the lighting around. Now, 0:21:15.236 --> 0:21:17.876 let's get back to the show. Okay, we're going to 0:21:17.956 --> 0:21:18.756