1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The other day I spoke with Dan Friedman. He's 2 00:00:23,316 --> 00:00:26,756 Speaker 1: the CEO of a company called Carbon Engineering. Maybe we 3 00:00:26,796 --> 00:00:30,876 Speaker 1: could start with what's happening out in Texas, Like, there's 4 00:00:30,916 --> 00:00:34,876 Speaker 1: actually somebody's building something big in Texas and you're mixed 5 00:00:34,916 --> 00:00:36,356 Speaker 1: up with it in a good way, right, tell me 6 00:00:36,396 --> 00:00:37,396 Speaker 1: what's happening in Texas. 7 00:00:37,476 --> 00:00:39,796 Speaker 2: Yes, and in Texas happened big. That's the good part 8 00:00:39,796 --> 00:00:46,036 Speaker 2: about Texas. Yeah. We are building well. Our partner is 9 00:00:46,116 --> 00:00:50,956 Speaker 2: building our first commercial scale plant. Just broke ground about 10 00:00:51,156 --> 00:00:55,556 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago, and all the big pieces 11 00:00:55,556 --> 00:00:59,396 Speaker 2: of equipment are under order, which is, you know, quite substantial. 12 00:00:59,436 --> 00:01:03,316 Speaker 2: We got all our permits, took about a year, and 13 00:01:03,356 --> 00:01:05,876 Speaker 2: the road's been put in place. It's just a big 14 00:01:06,236 --> 00:01:11,596 Speaker 2: bunch of desert with some shrubs. And yeah, construction has started. 15 00:01:12,236 --> 00:01:15,276 Speaker 1: Construction has started on a billion dollar project that will 16 00:01:15,316 --> 00:01:19,516 Speaker 1: be by far the biggest plant ever built to suck 17 00:01:19,596 --> 00:01:27,956 Speaker 1: carbon dioxide directly out of the atmosphere. I'm Jacob Goldstein, 18 00:01:27,996 --> 00:01:31,156 Speaker 1: and this is what's your problem. Carbon engineering is at 19 00:01:31,156 --> 00:01:35,396 Speaker 1: the frontier of an infant industry called direct air capture, 20 00:01:35,716 --> 00:01:40,716 Speaker 1: as in directly capturing carbon dioxide from the air. Direct 21 00:01:40,716 --> 00:01:43,236 Speaker 1: air capture won't be able to solve climate change on 22 00:01:43,316 --> 00:01:46,236 Speaker 1: its own. There's no way we could capture anywhere near 23 00:01:46,316 --> 00:01:48,596 Speaker 1: enough carbon to do that, but it might help at 24 00:01:48,596 --> 00:01:51,796 Speaker 1: the margin, pulling hundreds of millions of tons of carbon 25 00:01:51,836 --> 00:01:54,316 Speaker 1: out of the atmosphere every year to buy us some 26 00:01:54,476 --> 00:01:57,876 Speaker 1: time as industry is decarbonized over the next few decades. 27 00:01:58,556 --> 00:02:01,716 Speaker 1: To get there, the direct air capture industry needs to 28 00:02:01,756 --> 00:02:05,116 Speaker 1: solve a bunch of problems, including how to bring the 29 00:02:05,156 --> 00:02:08,556 Speaker 1: price of direct air capture way down, and also how 30 00:02:08,596 --> 00:02:12,196 Speaker 1: to convince companies and governments to pay for sucking carbon 31 00:02:12,196 --> 00:02:14,356 Speaker 1: out of the air. I talked about both of those 32 00:02:14,356 --> 00:02:16,916 Speaker 1: problems with Dan, but to start, we talked about what 33 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:22,596 Speaker 1: exactly he's building out in the Texas Desert. Let's say 34 00:02:22,596 --> 00:02:24,156 Speaker 1: it's two years from now and you and I drive 35 00:02:24,156 --> 00:02:26,556 Speaker 1: out to this spot in the middle of Texas and 36 00:02:27,196 --> 00:02:30,196 Speaker 1: you've just turned it on, the thing is working. What's 37 00:02:30,196 --> 00:02:31,836 Speaker 1: actually going to be happened? Well, first of all, we 38 00:02:31,916 --> 00:02:34,036 Speaker 1: get there, what do we see. What's it look like? 39 00:02:34,116 --> 00:02:36,956 Speaker 2: Okay, so you know, when when you build any direct 40 00:02:37,116 --> 00:02:41,516 Speaker 2: air capture facility, you've got to process a lot of air. 41 00:02:41,676 --> 00:02:44,076 Speaker 2: So the main thing you see in all of them 42 00:02:44,796 --> 00:02:47,836 Speaker 2: is what's what we call an air contactor, which is 43 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:50,996 Speaker 2: a fancy name for a huge box with a huge 44 00:02:51,076 --> 00:02:54,556 Speaker 2: fan that's drawing air through the contents of the box. 45 00:02:54,636 --> 00:02:57,916 Speaker 1: So it's a giant box fan like the one I 46 00:02:57,916 --> 00:02:59,596 Speaker 1: have in my living room, but way bigger. 47 00:02:59,876 --> 00:03:02,756 Speaker 2: How big A couple of stories with stories, okay, so 48 00:03:02,796 --> 00:03:04,876 Speaker 2: you know it looks like it looks like a small 49 00:03:05,636 --> 00:03:08,036 Speaker 2: a small apartment. You know, I've quite a small apartment, 50 00:03:08,036 --> 00:03:11,876 Speaker 2: but it's still like couple of stories, and you know 51 00:03:11,956 --> 00:03:13,276 Speaker 2: the width of a narrow house. 52 00:03:13,516 --> 00:03:13,836 Speaker 1: Okay. 53 00:03:13,956 --> 00:03:16,316 Speaker 2: The fan is right on the roof of it. Okay, 54 00:03:16,476 --> 00:03:19,396 Speaker 2: So the fan turns on and air is drawn in 55 00:03:19,476 --> 00:03:23,116 Speaker 2: from the sides and goes up the top. So you 56 00:03:23,156 --> 00:03:28,396 Speaker 2: would see about seventy of those in two years when 57 00:03:28,436 --> 00:03:30,716 Speaker 2: this is done, lined up in rows. 58 00:03:31,076 --> 00:03:34,956 Speaker 1: So danisying, there would be seventy of these apartment sized 59 00:03:34,996 --> 00:03:38,756 Speaker 1: fan buildings, like a little subdivision out there in the desert. 60 00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:41,076 Speaker 1: The fans suck in the air and then they have 61 00:03:41,116 --> 00:03:45,236 Speaker 1: this liquid that binds to the carbon dioxide. And one 62 00:03:45,276 --> 00:03:47,516 Speaker 1: of the things I'd heard Dan talk about in other 63 00:03:47,756 --> 00:03:51,796 Speaker 1: interviews is that the chemistry this part of removing carbon 64 00:03:51,876 --> 00:03:55,436 Speaker 1: from the air is actually pretty straightforward. But what's hard 65 00:03:55,876 --> 00:03:59,916 Speaker 1: is removing it efficiently because of how little carbon dioxide 66 00:03:59,956 --> 00:04:02,756 Speaker 1: is in the air, Like carbon dioxide is way less 67 00:04:02,796 --> 00:04:04,836 Speaker 1: than one percent of the atmosphere. 68 00:04:05,236 --> 00:04:08,396 Speaker 2: It's very, very tiny, and that's what makes it so 69 00:04:08,676 --> 00:04:13,156 Speaker 2: hard because you you have to touch so much air 70 00:04:13,276 --> 00:04:15,436 Speaker 2: to get at the little tiny you know, mining a 71 00:04:15,476 --> 00:04:20,396 Speaker 2: tiny bit amount from the air. And traditionally, you know, 72 00:04:20,436 --> 00:04:24,116 Speaker 2: people have been extracting carbon dioxide from the air for 73 00:04:24,156 --> 00:04:27,036 Speaker 2: a long time. If you recall the Apollo thirteen movie, 74 00:04:27,636 --> 00:04:30,836 Speaker 2: they were suffocating from breeding their own carbon dioxide, and 75 00:04:30,916 --> 00:04:32,236 Speaker 2: in a couple of hours they built that. 76 00:04:32,596 --> 00:04:34,916 Speaker 1: And just to be clear, that's the Houston We've got 77 00:04:34,956 --> 00:04:37,556 Speaker 1: a problem. Yes, their problem was that there was too 78 00:04:37,636 --> 00:04:40,076 Speaker 1: much carbon dioxide in their in their space capsule. 79 00:04:40,276 --> 00:04:43,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, their director capture machine in there. The little one 80 00:04:43,396 --> 00:04:46,116 Speaker 2: wasn't working, so they were suffocating in their own so 81 00:04:46,156 --> 00:04:49,556 Speaker 2: they built one and they scrabbed it out. So the 82 00:04:49,756 --> 00:04:52,476 Speaker 2: hard part, and that's what's unique about what we're doing. 83 00:04:52,516 --> 00:04:55,516 Speaker 2: The hard part is to pull a million tons of 84 00:04:55,676 --> 00:04:58,996 Speaker 2: carbon dioxide out of the air. So it's all about 85 00:04:59,236 --> 00:05:01,276 Speaker 2: how much we have to do. It's not about doing it. 86 00:05:01,316 --> 00:05:03,956 Speaker 2: The doing it is not that hard, but doing a 87 00:05:03,996 --> 00:05:05,876 Speaker 2: lot of it is incredibly challenging. 88 00:05:06,396 --> 00:05:07,716 Speaker 1: So it's a scaling problem. 89 00:05:07,796 --> 00:05:11,916 Speaker 2: It's coming up with a process that will scale and 90 00:05:11,996 --> 00:05:15,156 Speaker 2: that want use so much energy and materials that it 91 00:05:15,236 --> 00:05:18,116 Speaker 2: becomes useless. Right, so we need to be net negative, 92 00:05:18,196 --> 00:05:21,116 Speaker 2: not net positive. So the challenge is, you know, is 93 00:05:21,156 --> 00:05:24,236 Speaker 2: how much power do you use doing this? And how 94 00:05:24,316 --> 00:05:27,036 Speaker 2: much steel do you use to build these air contacts 95 00:05:27,076 --> 00:05:31,396 Speaker 2: and so on, and how do you scale that smartly? 96 00:05:31,956 --> 00:05:34,996 Speaker 2: So in the end you are net negative, which is 97 00:05:35,236 --> 00:05:36,396 Speaker 2: what the business is all about. 98 00:05:36,756 --> 00:05:38,676 Speaker 1: How long do you have to run the plant do 99 00:05:38,716 --> 00:05:43,076 Speaker 1: you estimate before it will capture all of the carbon 100 00:05:43,116 --> 00:05:45,436 Speaker 1: that was emitted to build the plant and to build 101 00:05:45,476 --> 00:05:46,676 Speaker 1: all of the materials in the plant. 102 00:05:46,996 --> 00:05:50,956 Speaker 2: I don't have that figure, but it's because it depends 103 00:05:51,116 --> 00:05:53,996 Speaker 2: who the final contractors are and their footprints and so on. 104 00:05:54,276 --> 00:05:57,356 Speaker 2: It's similar to electric cars. It's not significance a few 105 00:05:57,356 --> 00:05:59,356 Speaker 2: months and their I year for sure. 106 00:05:59,836 --> 00:06:03,636 Speaker 1: So Okay, you get the plant up and running, you're 107 00:06:03,716 --> 00:06:06,516 Speaker 1: sucking carbon dioxi out of the air. So far, so good. 108 00:06:06,876 --> 00:06:10,116 Speaker 1: But now you've got tons of carbon dioxide and you 109 00:06:10,156 --> 00:06:12,116 Speaker 1: have to do something with it, right. 110 00:06:12,596 --> 00:06:14,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's that's the hard part that it 111 00:06:14,636 --> 00:06:17,196 Speaker 2: alver forget. What we do is we hand it to 112 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:20,196 Speaker 2: the world's expert on how to deal with carbon dioxide. 113 00:06:20,276 --> 00:06:25,116 Speaker 2: Occidental our partner who has you know, been burying carbon 114 00:06:25,116 --> 00:06:26,956 Speaker 2: dioxide for a lot of years to. 115 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:29,836 Speaker 1: Be clear, that's Occidental Petroleum, the big oil company. 116 00:06:29,876 --> 00:06:32,796 Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, they are the companies that understand how to 117 00:06:32,876 --> 00:06:37,476 Speaker 2: handle carbon dioxide. So what they do is they bury 118 00:06:37,556 --> 00:06:42,076 Speaker 2: that carbon dioxide safely underground according to the US government regulations, 119 00:06:42,436 --> 00:06:45,396 Speaker 2: so that it's permanently stored, meaning that it's scanteed for 120 00:06:45,396 --> 00:06:47,716 Speaker 2: at least one hundred years to be underground. 121 00:06:47,956 --> 00:06:52,956 Speaker 1: So Occidental is they're an investor in carbon engineering. They're 122 00:06:52,956 --> 00:06:56,196 Speaker 1: on the board, right, and they're they're the ones building 123 00:06:56,236 --> 00:07:00,876 Speaker 1: this biggest in the world by far, direct air capture plants, right, 124 00:07:00,916 --> 00:07:01,876 Speaker 1: They're the one paying for it. 125 00:07:01,996 --> 00:07:02,196 Speaker 2: Yes? 126 00:07:02,756 --> 00:07:03,396 Speaker 1: Is that is that? 127 00:07:03,476 --> 00:07:03,796 Speaker 2: Yes? 128 00:07:03,916 --> 00:07:07,556 Speaker 1: Yeah? Well why is why is Occidental Petroleum doing this? 129 00:07:08,036 --> 00:07:09,876 Speaker 1: Where are they paying all this? And they're the ones 130 00:07:09,916 --> 00:07:11,916 Speaker 1: spending a billion dollars to do it? Right? 131 00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:15,316 Speaker 2: They were trying to figure out how to become net 132 00:07:15,436 --> 00:07:18,876 Speaker 2: zero meaning net zero in their own production, net zero 133 00:07:19,396 --> 00:07:22,596 Speaker 2: in everything they subcontract and buy, and net zero, and 134 00:07:22,716 --> 00:07:24,996 Speaker 2: what the customers like you and I would burn so 135 00:07:25,196 --> 00:07:31,156 Speaker 2: all the emissions, and they decided to use this to 136 00:07:31,236 --> 00:07:35,876 Speaker 2: decarbonize themselves. And then they said, whoa, we can offer 137 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:37,676 Speaker 2: this as a solution for other people that don't know 138 00:07:37,716 --> 00:07:40,796 Speaker 2: how to do this, for them to decarbonize like airlines. 139 00:07:41,916 --> 00:07:43,676 Speaker 2: It was a period took a period of years to 140 00:07:43,756 --> 00:07:48,396 Speaker 2: develop to the point where it is now. And so 141 00:07:48,436 --> 00:07:51,276 Speaker 2: they went from being a partner to being a customer 142 00:07:51,316 --> 00:07:54,316 Speaker 2: to also being a part owner and then to being 143 00:07:54,356 --> 00:07:58,676 Speaker 2: a deployment partner of all this thing. And they're trying 144 00:07:58,756 --> 00:08:06,196 Speaker 2: to make this their next business after oil is done, basically. 145 00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:09,676 Speaker 1: Basically selling carbon removal as a service. Let me ask 146 00:08:09,716 --> 00:08:11,876 Speaker 1: you a question. You said in there that Occidental wants 147 00:08:11,916 --> 00:08:14,676 Speaker 1: to be net zero? Why do they want to be 148 00:08:14,756 --> 00:08:17,076 Speaker 1: net zero? And like in particular, given that you know, 149 00:08:17,116 --> 00:08:20,756 Speaker 1: they have an obligation to their shareholders to maximize profits, 150 00:08:21,076 --> 00:08:24,236 Speaker 1: Like why are they spending a billion dollars to the 151 00:08:24,276 --> 00:08:26,596 Speaker 1: extent it's for them to be net zero? Like why 152 00:08:26,676 --> 00:08:28,436 Speaker 1: is that a sensible thing for them to do? 153 00:08:28,596 --> 00:08:30,316 Speaker 2: You know that kind of gets the heart of this 154 00:08:30,396 --> 00:08:33,956 Speaker 2: whole problem. You know, it's not just Occidental. Microsoft wants 155 00:08:33,996 --> 00:08:35,716 Speaker 2: to be in net zero. Amazon wants to be in 156 00:08:35,756 --> 00:08:39,516 Speaker 2: net zero. Air travel wants to be net zero. Most 157 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:44,116 Speaker 2: of ninety odd percent of the world GDP has set 158 00:08:44,116 --> 00:08:46,836 Speaker 2: a target to be net zero. So I think everybody's 159 00:08:46,916 --> 00:08:51,356 Speaker 2: realizing Occidental included that in order to survive in the 160 00:08:51,396 --> 00:08:54,156 Speaker 2: long term, we need to get to net zero. So 161 00:08:55,036 --> 00:08:57,636 Speaker 2: at some point, I think society is going to say, well, 162 00:08:57,956 --> 00:09:00,396 Speaker 2: if you're not net zero, you're not in business. 163 00:09:00,716 --> 00:09:03,276 Speaker 1: So the sort of the financial case for getting to 164 00:09:03,316 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 1: net zero is the assumption that policy governments will basically 165 00:09:08,476 --> 00:09:11,716 Speaker 1: force companies to be net zero, like that's the or 166 00:09:11,756 --> 00:09:14,476 Speaker 1: customers or customers right right, they will say we will 167 00:09:14,476 --> 00:09:19,196 Speaker 1: only do business with a net zero support. 168 00:09:19,636 --> 00:09:21,676 Speaker 2: You know. I think it goes deeper in terms of 169 00:09:21,716 --> 00:09:24,076 Speaker 2: their management team that they're just committed to kind of 170 00:09:24,156 --> 00:09:28,236 Speaker 2: lead the whole oil sector to get there, just recognizing 171 00:09:28,276 --> 00:09:31,956 Speaker 2: that this has to happen. And in the end it's 172 00:09:31,956 --> 00:09:34,236 Speaker 2: good for shareholders because if you keep your head in 173 00:09:34,276 --> 00:09:37,516 Speaker 2: the sand, then eventually people don't buy from you one 174 00:09:37,556 --> 00:09:38,156 Speaker 2: way or another. 175 00:09:39,076 --> 00:09:43,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I will say, given the history of 176 00:09:43,676 --> 00:09:49,676 Speaker 1: oil companies behavior with respect to climate change, I'm wary 177 00:09:49,956 --> 00:09:54,476 Speaker 1: of their involvement at some level, like just based on 178 00:09:55,356 --> 00:10:00,036 Speaker 1: the fact that they knew that emissions were driving climate change, 179 00:10:00,076 --> 00:10:03,996 Speaker 1: and they obfuscated that fact. Not occidental specifically, but that 180 00:10:04,156 --> 00:10:07,276 Speaker 1: was clearly a widespread practice in the industry, and so 181 00:10:08,396 --> 00:10:10,276 Speaker 1: it makes me some what weary of their involvement. 182 00:10:10,396 --> 00:10:12,636 Speaker 2: Now, yeah, you know, I can't comment on that. All 183 00:10:12,636 --> 00:10:15,836 Speaker 2: I can tell you is that when you scour the 184 00:10:15,916 --> 00:10:20,276 Speaker 2: planet to find somebody that can deal with a megaton 185 00:10:20,316 --> 00:10:22,036 Speaker 2: a year coming out of one plant, and then a 186 00:10:22,116 --> 00:10:24,676 Speaker 2: thousand megatons a year coming out of one thousand plants, 187 00:10:25,996 --> 00:10:29,076 Speaker 2: only the oil companies can do that, for better or worse. 188 00:10:29,436 --> 00:10:31,356 Speaker 1: Huh you mean in terms of how do you stick 189 00:10:31,396 --> 00:10:32,956 Speaker 1: it back in the ground. Yeah, you're the only ones 190 00:10:32,956 --> 00:10:36,516 Speaker 1: who know at vast scale, how do stick carbon dioxide 191 00:10:36,556 --> 00:10:37,156 Speaker 1: back in the ground. 192 00:10:37,716 --> 00:10:40,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, and understand the underground. They've been mapping the underground 193 00:10:40,636 --> 00:10:43,556 Speaker 2: for fifty years. They understand. Any country you go to, 194 00:10:43,596 --> 00:10:47,516 Speaker 2: the oil companies the only people that understand what's under there, 195 00:10:47,556 --> 00:10:49,876 Speaker 2: how to operate under there, how to keep it under 196 00:10:49,876 --> 00:10:52,476 Speaker 2: there and not have it leak out. If you want 197 00:10:52,476 --> 00:10:55,876 Speaker 2: to do this at scale, you've got to go to 198 00:10:55,916 --> 00:10:58,316 Speaker 2: the world's experts, and the world experts that have been 199 00:10:58,356 --> 00:11:00,876 Speaker 2: looking at what goes underground with the geology. Because of 200 00:11:00,916 --> 00:11:03,316 Speaker 2: the oil business. Are the oil companies, there's nobody else. 201 00:11:03,356 --> 00:11:06,916 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it is interesting the way this is, you're 202 00:11:06,956 --> 00:11:09,116 Speaker 1: basically running the oil business in revert. 203 00:11:09,436 --> 00:11:09,596 Speaker 2: Right. 204 00:11:09,636 --> 00:11:13,956 Speaker 1: For one hundred plus years, they have been digging hydrocarbons 205 00:11:13,996 --> 00:11:16,756 Speaker 1: out of the ground, and then we've been burning them, 206 00:11:16,796 --> 00:11:18,596 Speaker 1: and they've been going the carbon dioxide's been going into 207 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:21,036 Speaker 1: the atmosphere, and now it's like, okay, let's just it's 208 00:11:21,036 --> 00:11:22,796 Speaker 1: like on the It's like on my power drill at home. 209 00:11:22,836 --> 00:11:24,476 Speaker 1: You know, you push the button one way and it 210 00:11:24,556 --> 00:11:26,196 Speaker 1: drills in, and then you push it the other way 211 00:11:26,236 --> 00:11:26,916 Speaker 1: and it drills out. 212 00:11:26,996 --> 00:11:29,636 Speaker 2: Right, like exactly, it we got to I think the 213 00:11:29,636 --> 00:11:31,076 Speaker 2: saying goes, we got to put it back where it 214 00:11:31,116 --> 00:11:34,916 Speaker 2: came from. Yeah, and you know, anything else is mucking 215 00:11:35,036 --> 00:11:37,436 Speaker 2: around with this natural system and I don't know what 216 00:11:37,476 --> 00:11:40,276 Speaker 2: the output of that would be, but this is pretty straightforward. 217 00:11:40,316 --> 00:11:42,356 Speaker 2: We just put it back, bring the carbon back down, 218 00:11:43,196 --> 00:11:44,916 Speaker 2: and everything should return to normal. 219 00:11:45,396 --> 00:11:47,116 Speaker 1: Let me ask you one more thing, just on the 220 00:11:47,116 --> 00:11:50,636 Speaker 1: oil company thing, and then we'll leave it. There's basically 221 00:11:50,716 --> 00:11:54,236 Speaker 1: a concern that direct their capture will act as a 222 00:11:54,236 --> 00:11:58,796 Speaker 1: fig leaf to allow for even more emissions, right, and 223 00:11:58,876 --> 00:12:01,796 Speaker 1: it will slow the energy transition that we need. Do 224 00:12:01,836 --> 00:12:02,356 Speaker 1: you buy that? 225 00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:07,076 Speaker 2: No? You know, whoever says that just hasn't done the mass. Yeah, 226 00:12:07,196 --> 00:12:09,316 Speaker 2: this is not going to be an excuse for not 227 00:12:09,396 --> 00:12:13,396 Speaker 2: doing anything else. We already know from very well done 228 00:12:13,516 --> 00:12:18,516 Speaker 2: studies that there's only so much we can do to 229 00:12:18,596 --> 00:12:21,756 Speaker 2: avoid emissions. In the end, you're left with depends who 230 00:12:21,796 --> 00:12:23,596 Speaker 2: you talk to, you're left with somewhere between ten and 231 00:12:23,636 --> 00:12:27,716 Speaker 2: twenty percentage you just cannot avoid. And that's where direct 232 00:12:27,756 --> 00:12:30,396 Speaker 2: their capture comes in. It's the last bit of garbage 233 00:12:30,436 --> 00:12:32,716 Speaker 2: that you can't recycle, you can't do anything about it, 234 00:12:33,116 --> 00:12:35,476 Speaker 2: and you've got to take it out. And that problem 235 00:12:35,476 --> 00:12:40,236 Speaker 2: alone is an immense challenge to think that we could 236 00:12:40,276 --> 00:12:42,556 Speaker 2: do ten times that and have everybody go one in life. 237 00:12:43,676 --> 00:12:46,676 Speaker 2: People just haven't done the math. It's just just not possible. 238 00:12:46,956 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 2: And then the other key thing is that if we 239 00:12:50,116 --> 00:12:53,596 Speaker 2: stop today and don't emit another carbon molecule into the air, 240 00:12:53,916 --> 00:12:56,476 Speaker 2: we've already emitted enough that we're going to crash through 241 00:12:56,476 --> 00:12:58,196 Speaker 2: one point five at some point. 242 00:12:58,036 --> 00:13:00,276 Speaker 1: One point five degrees of warming one. 243 00:13:00,156 --> 00:13:03,076 Speaker 2: Point five degrees because it's cumulative, and we've, like you 244 00:13:03,116 --> 00:13:04,956 Speaker 2: just said, we just spent the last hundred years burning 245 00:13:04,996 --> 00:13:08,996 Speaker 2: oil and coal, So you know, at some point beyond 246 00:13:09,116 --> 00:13:12,156 Speaker 2: twenty fifty, we want to bring stuff back down. 247 00:13:15,636 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 1: In other words, we don't just need to stop emitting 248 00:13:18,076 --> 00:13:21,716 Speaker 1: carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. We need to reduce the 249 00:13:21,756 --> 00:13:24,396 Speaker 1: amount of carbon dioxide that is already out there in 250 00:13:24,436 --> 00:13:28,756 Speaker 1: the atmosphere. In a minute, the big problem with direct 251 00:13:28,796 --> 00:13:37,996 Speaker 1: air captured, where's the money going to come from. That's 252 00:13:38,036 --> 00:13:39,996 Speaker 1: the end of the ads. Now we're going back to 253 00:13:40,036 --> 00:13:44,516 Speaker 1: the show. Last year, Congress passed and the President signed 254 00:13:44,516 --> 00:13:49,476 Speaker 1: into law the Inflation Reduction Act, an act that confusingly 255 00:13:49,876 --> 00:13:53,556 Speaker 1: did not do much to reduce inflation, but did do 256 00:13:53,796 --> 00:13:56,996 Speaker 1: a lot for direct air capture. Specifically, it said that 257 00:13:57,036 --> 00:14:01,036 Speaker 1: the federal government will use tax credits to basically pay 258 00:14:01,116 --> 00:14:04,396 Speaker 1: companies to suck carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere. 259 00:14:04,596 --> 00:14:06,796 Speaker 2: If we prove to them that we have captured a 260 00:14:06,876 --> 00:14:09,436 Speaker 2: ton of CO two from the air and we've buried 261 00:14:09,476 --> 00:14:12,956 Speaker 2: it up to their requirements, they write your check for 262 00:14:12,956 --> 00:14:14,916 Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty dollars. 263 00:14:14,516 --> 00:14:17,076 Speaker 1: And one hundred and eighty dollars per ton. 264 00:14:16,956 --> 00:14:20,276 Speaker 2: Per ton, so it's one hundred and eighty million per 265 00:14:20,436 --> 00:14:21,276 Speaker 2: million tons. 266 00:14:21,916 --> 00:14:24,836 Speaker 1: And how much this this big plant that you and 267 00:14:24,876 --> 00:14:26,916 Speaker 1: accidental are building in Texas. How much does that pull 268 00:14:26,956 --> 00:14:28,036 Speaker 1: out of the air per year? 269 00:14:28,756 --> 00:14:31,396 Speaker 2: The first plant half a million tons, so that'd be 270 00:14:31,436 --> 00:14:34,276 Speaker 2: like ninety million a year from the US government. And 271 00:14:34,436 --> 00:14:36,756 Speaker 2: you know, the plant would not have happened without the IRA. 272 00:14:37,676 --> 00:14:40,036 Speaker 2: This wouldn't have taken off in any kind of speed 273 00:14:40,076 --> 00:14:42,876 Speaker 2: without the IRA. You just couldn't do it without something 274 00:14:42,996 --> 00:14:43,356 Speaker 2: like that. 275 00:14:43,796 --> 00:14:45,476 Speaker 1: So, if one hundred and eighty dollars per ton is 276 00:14:45,476 --> 00:14:47,756 Speaker 1: the carrot is, what is the cost to you per 277 00:14:47,796 --> 00:14:49,476 Speaker 1: ton on your plant? 278 00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:55,076 Speaker 2: That is confidential, but it's significantly over that today it's more. 279 00:14:55,196 --> 00:14:59,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so to be a real viable business, there 280 00:14:59,436 --> 00:15:01,516 Speaker 1: needs to be some combination of getting more than one 281 00:15:01,556 --> 00:15:06,596 Speaker 1: hundred and eighty dollars a ton and or bringing your 282 00:15:06,636 --> 00:15:07,916 Speaker 1: costs down a lot. 283 00:15:08,036 --> 00:15:10,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you've put your finger on it. We need 284 00:15:10,916 --> 00:15:14,916 Speaker 2: to bring the cost of production down over time by 285 00:15:14,956 --> 00:15:19,236 Speaker 2: improving the technology and making it more and more efficient. 286 00:15:19,396 --> 00:15:23,236 Speaker 2: And that's really the job of carbon engineering. That's what 287 00:15:23,276 --> 00:15:24,036 Speaker 2: we do for a living. 288 00:15:24,676 --> 00:15:30,156 Speaker 1: Can you give me a specific example of some detail, 289 00:15:30,276 --> 00:15:35,036 Speaker 1: some part of the process, either that you have made 290 00:15:35,116 --> 00:15:35,916 Speaker 1: cheaper or solved. 291 00:15:35,996 --> 00:15:38,036 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the easiest example, and the one we've 292 00:15:38,036 --> 00:15:41,796 Speaker 2: worked the most done, is Hey, let's get those seventy 293 00:15:41,836 --> 00:15:42,436 Speaker 2: things down. 294 00:15:42,316 --> 00:15:44,516 Speaker 1: To fifty seventy units. 295 00:15:44,796 --> 00:15:47,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's seventy units. Let's make the way the whole 296 00:15:47,836 --> 00:15:49,756 Speaker 2: thing is configured, and the way the fan runs and 297 00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:53,116 Speaker 2: so on, and the way we place it to the 298 00:15:53,156 --> 00:15:55,796 Speaker 2: prevailing wind. Let's make that more efficient. So the next 299 00:15:55,836 --> 00:15:59,396 Speaker 2: plant has fifty not seventy. You save yourself a pile 300 00:15:59,436 --> 00:16:02,356 Speaker 2: of steel, You save yourself a pidle of sorbent, you 301 00:16:02,436 --> 00:16:05,836 Speaker 2: use less electricity, it becomes more efficient. 302 00:16:05,876 --> 00:16:08,156 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a way of saying, let's pull out 303 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:11,956 Speaker 1: more carbon with every thing, right, with every spin of 304 00:16:11,996 --> 00:16:14,956 Speaker 1: the fan. Let's get more carbon right out of the atmosphere. 305 00:16:15,276 --> 00:16:17,876 Speaker 1: And is there an example of how you have done 306 00:16:17,916 --> 00:16:21,716 Speaker 1: that already? I mean, presumably that is the endless quest 307 00:16:21,836 --> 00:16:25,076 Speaker 1: for improved deficiency. Is there just one little example you 308 00:16:25,116 --> 00:16:27,676 Speaker 1: can give of a way you have improved efficiency so far. 309 00:16:28,676 --> 00:16:31,996 Speaker 2: So inside what we call the air contact or where 310 00:16:32,036 --> 00:16:37,516 Speaker 2: the air is flowing through. In our case, the reaction 311 00:16:37,636 --> 00:16:41,316 Speaker 2: is from a very thin film. That film is exposed 312 00:16:42,076 --> 00:16:44,716 Speaker 2: to the air and react to the carbon. So if 313 00:16:44,716 --> 00:16:47,836 Speaker 2: we can pack a honeycomb structure in it, we got 314 00:16:47,876 --> 00:16:49,716 Speaker 2: more surface that the air is going through. 315 00:16:49,996 --> 00:16:52,956 Speaker 1: Wait, is that one. Is that one you've done already? 316 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:53,196 Speaker 2: Yes? 317 00:16:53,276 --> 00:16:54,516 Speaker 1: Have you already turned it into. 318 00:16:54,396 --> 00:16:57,156 Speaker 2: A honey yes, well not a honeycomb, but yeah. We 319 00:16:57,716 --> 00:17:01,236 Speaker 2: have been improving what we call the fill of the 320 00:17:01,276 --> 00:17:04,276 Speaker 2: air contact or what's inside it for many years, and 321 00:17:04,316 --> 00:17:07,436 Speaker 2: then in the last year before we went to final production, 322 00:17:08,276 --> 00:17:10,836 Speaker 2: we made our own custom filled what we call the 323 00:17:10,916 --> 00:17:15,476 Speaker 2: CE one, and it was twenty percent better. And we're 324 00:17:15,516 --> 00:17:19,796 Speaker 2: now working on the second fill, not going into the 325 00:17:19,836 --> 00:17:22,076 Speaker 2: deck the director capture plan we just talked about, but 326 00:17:22,116 --> 00:17:24,476 Speaker 2: we'll go into the next one and that might be 327 00:17:24,516 --> 00:17:27,716 Speaker 2: another twenty percent and we might be down to fifty 328 00:17:27,756 --> 00:17:30,196 Speaker 2: five fifty six air contact us once we do that. 329 00:17:31,156 --> 00:17:32,396 Speaker 1: What else should we talk about? 330 00:17:34,716 --> 00:17:37,156 Speaker 2: So you know, we know we have to do this, 331 00:17:38,116 --> 00:17:42,916 Speaker 2: and right now our partner is selling these credits. They're available, 332 00:17:43,196 --> 00:17:46,756 Speaker 2: we can go buy them today. But it's not really happening. 333 00:17:46,836 --> 00:17:48,716 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a few sales going on, but it's 334 00:17:48,836 --> 00:17:51,956 Speaker 2: not really happening. And if it was really happening, we'd 335 00:17:51,956 --> 00:17:55,556 Speaker 2: probably be building four plants, not one plant. And that's 336 00:17:55,636 --> 00:17:59,156 Speaker 2: the real challenge that bothers me. How do we make 337 00:17:59,156 --> 00:18:00,916 Speaker 2: this happen. We all know we have to do it, 338 00:18:01,476 --> 00:18:02,916 Speaker 2: but if you and I do it, and nobody else 339 00:18:02,956 --> 00:18:04,876 Speaker 2: does it. We just spend a lot of money and 340 00:18:04,876 --> 00:18:06,836 Speaker 2: accomplish nothing. We need everybody to do it at the 341 00:18:06,836 --> 00:18:07,716 Speaker 2: same time kind of thing. 342 00:18:08,516 --> 00:18:11,956 Speaker 1: But it's a weird product, right, Like you're selling you're 343 00:18:12,036 --> 00:18:14,756 Speaker 1: selling a thing that is like the absence of a 344 00:18:14,796 --> 00:18:17,796 Speaker 1: thing globally, right, Like you're selling a weird product. Nobody 345 00:18:17,836 --> 00:18:21,596 Speaker 1: in the absence of policy, really well, nobody in the 346 00:18:21,636 --> 00:18:24,836 Speaker 1: absence of policy or very different customer demand than we're 347 00:18:24,876 --> 00:18:30,276 Speaker 1: seeing now has to buy your product, like nobody, nobody, nobody, 348 00:18:30,356 --> 00:18:33,236 Speaker 1: And so people aren't going to do it out of 349 00:18:33,236 --> 00:18:35,676 Speaker 1: the goodness of their hearts, right, Like they're just not 350 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:38,476 Speaker 1: gonna They're not even gonna do it for marketing at 351 00:18:38,476 --> 00:18:41,756 Speaker 1: any meaningful scale. So like, I have to think the 352 00:18:41,756 --> 00:18:46,636 Speaker 1: only way it's gonna work is with way stronger policy levers, 353 00:18:46,756 --> 00:18:47,916 Speaker 1: be they carratter sticks. 354 00:18:48,116 --> 00:18:51,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the key thing. We need to make this 355 00:18:51,516 --> 00:18:52,636 Speaker 2: happen at the scale we need it. 356 00:18:52,756 --> 00:18:55,916 Speaker 1: Yeah, what really has to happen for it to work 357 00:18:55,956 --> 00:18:58,276 Speaker 1: at scale? Like, what is the policy you need for 358 00:18:58,316 --> 00:19:00,076 Speaker 1: this industry to actually be a thing? 359 00:19:00,276 --> 00:19:02,516 Speaker 2: You know where the US is once again taking the 360 00:19:02,596 --> 00:19:08,316 Speaker 2: lead is the governments are one of the largest polluters 361 00:19:08,316 --> 00:19:11,676 Speaker 2: in the world pickarly. About thirty percent of the carbon 362 00:19:11,676 --> 00:19:14,916 Speaker 2: dioxid problem in a country comes from the government operations, 363 00:19:14,956 --> 00:19:19,156 Speaker 2: the military in particular. So the US is pushing policy 364 00:19:19,236 --> 00:19:24,196 Speaker 2: right now compelling government to clean up after itself and 365 00:19:24,316 --> 00:19:28,116 Speaker 2: buy so to the extent that governments begin to buy, 366 00:19:28,196 --> 00:19:31,516 Speaker 2: that would be amazing. So there are many different ways 367 00:19:31,956 --> 00:19:34,956 Speaker 2: in which we can do this. You know, we already 368 00:19:35,396 --> 00:19:38,476 Speaker 2: cleaned up our garbage used to flow down the streets 369 00:19:38,476 --> 00:19:42,516 Speaker 2: and cause plagues. We then cleaned up our rivers, and 370 00:19:42,556 --> 00:19:43,836 Speaker 2: now we've got to clean up the air. 371 00:19:44,196 --> 00:19:49,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting thinking of this like a basic hygiene problem, right, 372 00:19:49,276 --> 00:19:51,756 Speaker 1: like water quality. Water quality is an amazing one. Right, 373 00:19:51,756 --> 00:19:54,356 Speaker 1: If you go back one hundred and fifty years, the 374 00:19:55,116 --> 00:20:00,396 Speaker 1: advent of modern sewage systems essentially was like one of 375 00:20:00,436 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 1: the great public health breakthroughs in the history of the world. Really, 376 00:20:05,796 --> 00:20:08,236 Speaker 1: and thinking of this in those terms is interesting. 377 00:20:08,356 --> 00:20:08,476 Speaker 2: Right. 378 00:20:08,516 --> 00:20:11,396 Speaker 1: There was a sort of collective action problem. It was 379 00:20:11,436 --> 00:20:16,476 Speaker 1: a kind of early government doing something other than fighting wars. 380 00:20:16,636 --> 00:20:18,476 Speaker 1: Like this reminds me a little bit of that when 381 00:20:18,476 --> 00:20:19,876 Speaker 1: you put it that way, right, this is like a 382 00:20:19,876 --> 00:20:23,036 Speaker 1: global version of sewage collection. Yes, with similar things. 383 00:20:23,396 --> 00:20:25,316 Speaker 2: The hard part about this one is you know, when 384 00:20:25,396 --> 00:20:28,556 Speaker 2: when the sewer is running down the street or the river, 385 00:20:28,636 --> 00:20:31,796 Speaker 2: I can see it's in my backyard, and unfortunate climate 386 00:20:31,876 --> 00:20:34,996 Speaker 2: is not in my backyard, or is in everybody's backyard. Yeah, 387 00:20:35,076 --> 00:20:36,316 Speaker 2: so it's harder, but you. 388 00:20:36,196 --> 00:20:39,396 Speaker 1: Know, yeah, there's a collective action problem here, right, Like 389 00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:42,876 Speaker 1: London cleans up as sewage, London is better off, right, 390 00:20:42,956 --> 00:20:45,036 Speaker 1: But if London is the only one taking carbon out 391 00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:47,956 Speaker 1: of the atmosphere, nobody's going to be better off. 392 00:20:47,996 --> 00:20:48,236 Speaker 2: That's it. 393 00:20:48,156 --> 00:20:49,516 Speaker 1: It makes it a much harder problem. 394 00:20:50,156 --> 00:20:53,836 Speaker 2: But that's it. Just you know, when when we first 395 00:20:53,876 --> 00:20:56,236 Speaker 2: cleaned up the sewers, it was really your neighborhood. When 396 00:20:56,236 --> 00:20:58,796 Speaker 2: we cleaned up the rivers, it was quite a big neighborhood. 397 00:20:58,836 --> 00:21:01,476 Speaker 2: And now it's the whole planet. We got to expand 398 00:21:01,476 --> 00:21:02,476 Speaker 2: to the whole planet. Yeah. 399 00:21:02,756 --> 00:21:15,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be back in a minute with the lighting around. Now, 400 00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:17,876 Speaker 1: let's get back to the show. Okay, we're going to 401 00:21:17,956 --> 00:21:18,756 Speaker 1: do a lightning round. 402 00:21:18,756 --> 00:21:18,996 Speaker 2: Now. 403 00:21:19,236 --> 00:21:21,076 Speaker 1: It's going to be way more all over the place 404 00:21:21,436 --> 00:21:23,996 Speaker 1: than the rest of the interview, but it's gonna be fun. 405 00:21:24,116 --> 00:21:25,596 Speaker 2: Okay, Is it correct. 406 00:21:25,356 --> 00:21:27,156 Speaker 1: That you got a patent in nineteen eighty three for 407 00:21:27,196 --> 00:21:28,476 Speaker 1: an electric field detector. 408 00:21:28,916 --> 00:21:31,756 Speaker 2: Oh myself, Yes, I did. Yes. 409 00:21:32,116 --> 00:21:34,556 Speaker 1: Was there anything you learned inventing that electric field detector 410 00:21:35,196 --> 00:21:37,356 Speaker 1: in the process of inventing it or patenting it or 411 00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:39,476 Speaker 1: whatever that was helpful to you when you went to 412 00:21:39,556 --> 00:21:40,916 Speaker 1: work in industry. 413 00:21:41,116 --> 00:21:43,956 Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely. You know, when you're sitting in engineering school, 414 00:21:43,996 --> 00:21:47,996 Speaker 2: you think the problem is solving the technical problem. When 415 00:21:48,076 --> 00:21:50,116 Speaker 2: you invent something, you realize the problem is getting it 416 00:21:50,156 --> 00:21:50,596 Speaker 2: to market. 417 00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:54,116 Speaker 1: Huh, same problem you have now, same problem you have. 418 00:21:54,196 --> 00:21:54,316 Speaker 2: Now. 419 00:21:55,676 --> 00:21:57,876 Speaker 1: What's one thing I should do if I go to 420 00:21:58,356 --> 00:21:59,556 Speaker 1: Chile where you grew up. 421 00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:01,556 Speaker 2: Oh, go skiing. I'm a skier. 422 00:22:03,156 --> 00:22:05,436 Speaker 1: Huh. If I want to go skiing in August, that's 423 00:22:05,476 --> 00:22:06,116 Speaker 1: the place to go. 424 00:22:06,476 --> 00:22:08,236 Speaker 2: I should go to chill That's the best place to go. 425 00:22:09,116 --> 00:22:10,236 Speaker 1: That's one thing I should do if I go to 426 00:22:10,236 --> 00:22:12,156 Speaker 1: British Columbia, where you live and work. 427 00:22:12,156 --> 00:22:16,516 Speaker 2: Now, oh, you should also come skiing here. I'm a 428 00:22:16,556 --> 00:22:18,956 Speaker 2: boring guy, you know, this is paradise. 429 00:22:19,316 --> 00:22:21,196 Speaker 1: If I want to ski in January, I go to BC. 430 00:22:21,276 --> 00:22:22,836 Speaker 1: If I want to ski in August, I'll go to Chula. 431 00:22:22,956 --> 00:22:23,396 Speaker 2: That's right. 432 00:22:23,596 --> 00:22:25,796 Speaker 1: When you were the CEO of an aerospace company, you 433 00:22:25,836 --> 00:22:28,636 Speaker 1: started writing books on the side and not like typical 434 00:22:28,716 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 1: CEO type books, right, tell me about those books. 435 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:37,636 Speaker 2: You know, I studied physics engineering fixes in school, and 436 00:22:36,996 --> 00:22:40,036 Speaker 2: when we worked with NASA for years. One of the 437 00:22:40,076 --> 00:22:43,156 Speaker 2: other things we did with we also built the robotic 438 00:22:43,276 --> 00:22:43,556 Speaker 2: arm on. 439 00:22:43,556 --> 00:22:45,396 Speaker 1: The Shuttle on the Space Shuttle. 440 00:22:45,436 --> 00:22:47,636 Speaker 2: The Space shuttle on the Space Shuttle, so we built 441 00:22:47,636 --> 00:22:49,996 Speaker 2: a robotic arm called the Canada Arm. One was on 442 00:22:50,036 --> 00:22:55,316 Speaker 2: the Shuttle, the Shuttle arm that was instrumental in fixing 443 00:22:55,396 --> 00:22:59,476 Speaker 2: the Hubble telescope. So I interacted directly with a Hubble 444 00:22:59,516 --> 00:23:03,276 Speaker 2: team and kind of kept track of all the advances 445 00:23:03,276 --> 00:23:07,436 Speaker 2: in cosmology. And I came to the realization that after 446 00:23:07,556 --> 00:23:10,916 Speaker 2: having left school thirty odd years, we still had a 447 00:23:10,996 --> 00:23:15,316 Speaker 2: lot of questions to answer. And I had seen some 448 00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:19,356 Speaker 2: allusion to those questions in the Jewish literature related to 449 00:23:19,396 --> 00:23:22,676 Speaker 2: my religion, and you know, when I had a bit 450 00:23:22,716 --> 00:23:25,236 Speaker 2: of time, I went to work on whether one could 451 00:23:25,476 --> 00:23:29,076 Speaker 2: draw us something from each tide to get to a 452 00:23:29,076 --> 00:23:32,196 Speaker 2: better answer of what all the stuff looks like. So 453 00:23:32,676 --> 00:23:34,916 Speaker 2: didn't intend to do much, accept a little bit of research, 454 00:23:34,996 --> 00:23:37,116 Speaker 2: and I talked to a few people and they said, well, 455 00:23:37,156 --> 00:23:39,476 Speaker 2: you should really write this up. And about four or 456 00:23:39,476 --> 00:23:42,316 Speaker 2: five six books later, still doing that, but taking a 457 00:23:42,356 --> 00:23:43,116 Speaker 2: pause in the last. 458 00:23:43,036 --> 00:23:47,036 Speaker 1: Year, and I mean the basic theme is reconciling the 459 00:23:47,076 --> 00:23:51,076 Speaker 1: Old Testament of the Bible with modern cosmology. Is that 460 00:23:51,116 --> 00:23:52,436 Speaker 1: the basic project. 461 00:23:52,596 --> 00:23:55,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the sense that we're both looking at the 462 00:23:55,996 --> 00:23:58,796 Speaker 2: same world, so we need to be we need to 463 00:23:58,796 --> 00:24:00,596 Speaker 2: be describing it the same because we know it's real 464 00:24:00,636 --> 00:24:02,916 Speaker 2: out there. And if we do that, then we can 465 00:24:02,956 --> 00:24:07,196 Speaker 2: go peel back to how how each of those bodies 466 00:24:07,236 --> 00:24:10,756 Speaker 2: or knowledge gets to that answer and see if we 467 00:24:10,756 --> 00:24:13,236 Speaker 2: can learn about how it all came came to happen 468 00:24:13,756 --> 00:24:15,116 Speaker 2: and put those things together. 469 00:24:15,716 --> 00:24:18,716 Speaker 1: If everything goes well, going back to carbon engineering, if 470 00:24:18,716 --> 00:24:21,916 Speaker 1: everything goes well, what's a problem you'll be trying to 471 00:24:21,916 --> 00:24:23,836 Speaker 1: solve in say five years. 472 00:24:24,276 --> 00:24:28,276 Speaker 2: How to build dozens of plants a month, or not 473 00:24:28,356 --> 00:24:30,276 Speaker 2: build them in a month, but have them come out 474 00:24:30,276 --> 00:24:33,436 Speaker 2: of the production line. Yeah, so start a dozen and 475 00:24:33,436 --> 00:24:36,036 Speaker 2: finish a dozen two years later, and then the next 476 00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:37,716 Speaker 2: month another doesn't and finish a dozen. 477 00:24:38,156 --> 00:24:42,596 Speaker 1: In that universe. Direct air capture is becoming a massive industry. 478 00:24:42,756 --> 00:24:47,276 Speaker 1: It's these giant industrial direct air capture plants are springing 479 00:24:47,356 --> 00:24:51,076 Speaker 1: up every month, every week all around the world. That's 480 00:24:51,116 --> 00:24:52,596 Speaker 1: what you're hoping for, and you're hoping that will happen 481 00:24:52,636 --> 00:24:55,676 Speaker 1: in five years, Like is that possible? Like that seems 482 00:24:55,716 --> 00:24:57,836 Speaker 1: like a lot from one. 483 00:24:59,036 --> 00:25:01,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, it will look it will look like a bit 484 00:25:01,516 --> 00:25:04,796 Speaker 2: like a solar farms do. Right. Yeah, they're springing out everywhere, 485 00:25:06,436 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 2: all the solar panels. So just have little bigger buildings 486 00:25:08,916 --> 00:25:12,836 Speaker 2: with on top and capturing carbon problem in the same 487 00:25:12,836 --> 00:25:15,196 Speaker 2: places because we need the solar power to power them 488 00:25:15,596 --> 00:25:17,716 Speaker 2: and so on. Right, But it's exactly what it will 489 00:25:17,756 --> 00:25:19,956 Speaker 2: look like, and we will have to have them springing 490 00:25:20,036 --> 00:25:22,716 Speaker 2: up everywhere to clean this carbon problem out. 491 00:25:28,396 --> 00:25:32,876 Speaker 1: Dan Friedman is the CEO of Carbon Engineering. Today's show 492 00:25:33,076 --> 00:25:35,916 Speaker 1: was produced by Edith Russello. It was edited by Sarah 493 00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:40,556 Speaker 1: Nix and Robert Smith and engineered by Amanda k Wong. 494 00:25:41,116 --> 00:25:43,436 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein. You can find me on Twitter at 495 00:25:43,516 --> 00:25:46,956 Speaker 1: Jacob Goldstein, or you can email us at problem at 496 00:25:47,076 --> 00:25:50,716 Speaker 1: Cushkin dot FM. We'll be back next week with another 497 00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:58,636 Speaker 1: episode of What's Your Problem.