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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Away End and Danielle Alercon.

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Speaker 2: I'm John Green.

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Speaker 1: Hey man, Hey, okay, so high energy here John, stay

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Speaker 1: with me. So for the first segment of our show today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the dark and the light,

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Speaker 1: the troublesome and the hilarious, the complicated and the silly.

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Speaker 1: So we should start with the hard stuff, I think, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think we can't. We can't get away from it.

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Speaker 1: And although neither of us are really necessarily enthused or

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Speaker 1: even particularly knowledgeable, perhaps I think we can't not talk

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Speaker 1: about Iran, the war that's currently happening, and I guess

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Speaker 1: just in the context of the away and what it

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Speaker 1: might mean for the World Cup. So just to give

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Speaker 1: a little bit of background, currently, because of the bombing

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Speaker 1: the United States and Israel are doing, there's been a

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Speaker 1: bunch of back and forth, right so, you know, on

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Speaker 1: the one hand, there was a statement from Iran saying

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Speaker 1: we're not going to participate. Then Gianni Infantino came out

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Speaker 1: and said they definitely were and even thanked the US

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Speaker 1: President Donald Trump for making them welcome. And then later

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Speaker 1: in the day Trump tweeted or truth whatever, I really

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Speaker 1: don't believe it's appropriate that they be here for their

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Speaker 1: own life and safety. And then apparently Iraq, the Iraqi

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Speaker 1: players can't even leave Bagdad to go play their their

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Speaker 1: you know, intercontinental playoff Wich should be happening later this month,

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Speaker 1: and there's reports that the United airb Emirates, a close

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Speaker 1: ally of the United States, is kind of lobbying FIFA

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Speaker 1: to be given Iran's space should have become available. So

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Speaker 1: this is all kind of a weird thing and not

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Speaker 1: fun to think about, but also kind of an unprecedented situation.

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Speaker 1: That is, I think a you know, the kind of

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Speaker 1: almost natural conclusion of a haphazard, bellicose bullying foreign policy

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Speaker 1: that the United States has embarked upon in the last

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Speaker 1: year or so. So I don't know, John thoughts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really heartbreaking anytime. I mean, look, that's obviously

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Speaker 2: a very difficult situation. I mean, we've been talking on

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Speaker 2: the away and from the very beginning about how you

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Speaker 2: can't separate politics and nationalism from contemporary global football, and

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Speaker 2: that you never really could. This is incredibly difficult. I mean,

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Speaker 2: Iraq is supposed to play a playoff game in like

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Speaker 2: two weeks, and it's not clear that the Iraqi team

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Speaker 2: can travel at all safely, And so what do you

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Speaker 2: do if your FIFA Iran has said that they won't

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Speaker 2: participate in the World Cup. The Iranian women's team, some

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Speaker 2: of them have been offered asylum in Australia, I believe

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Speaker 2: because were playing in the Asian Cup. It's you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously sport is one tiny fraction of all of what's happening.

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Speaker 2: But I'm reminded of something a Major League Baseball player

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Speaker 2: said once during the Black Lives Matters, like when the

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Speaker 2: Black Lives Matters protests were first really growing. He said,

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Speaker 2: sports is the reward for a functioning society. And I'd

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Speaker 2: never thought of that before, but it really is true.

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Speaker 2: Like when society collapses, sports collapses. We saw that at

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Speaker 2: the beginning of the COVID pandemic. I've seen it in

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Speaker 2: impoverished countries where my family and I have tried to

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Speaker 2: make investments in the healthcare system. That like, you know,

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Speaker 2: when Sierra Leone is doing well and healthy, there is

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Speaker 2: a Sierra Leonian Premier League. And when sier Leone is

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Speaker 2: in a state of collapse because of Ebola, or because

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Speaker 2: of civil war, because of what ever else, there isn't

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Speaker 2: a seer Leonian Premier League. Sports is the reward for

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Speaker 2: a functioning society, and you know, I'm questioning how well

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Speaker 2: our society is functioning, and as a result, I think

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Speaker 2: that it is going to impact the World Cup. There's

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Speaker 2: no getting around it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I just can't. I mean, I agree with all

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Speaker 1: of that. And I love that statement by that unnamed

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Speaker 1: baseball player who.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wish I could remember his name so I

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Speaker 2: can credit him, but somebody will write in and tell us, please, please,

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Speaker 2: please do But no, it's a pretty powerful.

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Speaker 1: Statement and it seems to be one of those things

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Speaker 1: that it strikes me as very true just on the

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Speaker 1: face of it. But I can't stop thinking about the

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Speaker 1: discrepancy between the what FIFA probably wanted when they awarded

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Speaker 1: the World Cup to the United States, Mexico and Canada

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Speaker 1: and what they're getting, which is, you know, a fracture,

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Speaker 1: not just North America, you know, because of the the

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Speaker 1: way Donald Trump has been, you know, trying to annex

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Speaker 1: Canada and bob Mexico, but then also just a kind

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Speaker 1: of broader sense of global fracture that probably began with

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Speaker 1: the Ukraine War and and and you know has and

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Speaker 1: said it's even before that, but that feels particularly fraught

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Speaker 1: right now, you know, with the United States doing what

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Speaker 1: it's doing everywhere, and with with you know, this most

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Speaker 1: recent conflict just sort of taking over the news and

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Speaker 1: really sort of troubling so many people around the world,

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Speaker 1: including me. So yeah, it's it's not an ideal situation

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Speaker 1: for sport. I was noticing just yes, just today actually

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Speaker 1: I saw the news that saor Mom, Donnie and Infantino met,

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Speaker 1: and I was just thinking, I was like, what are

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Speaker 1: they talking about? You know, like, we know that the

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Speaker 1: mayor of New York City is a huge football fan,

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Speaker 1: a huge Arsenal fan like me. But I don't think

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Speaker 1: that's what they were talking about. I'm pretty sure you're

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Speaker 1: talking about security. You know, what happens if Veron comes,

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Speaker 1: what happens Ron doesn't come, you know, what kind of

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Speaker 1: threats there might be. I mean, there were two kids

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Speaker 1: arrested with you know, improvised explosive devices in front of

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Speaker 1: his Gracie mansion like last week. So there's a real

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Speaker 1: sense that the World Cup isn't happening in this kind

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Speaker 1: of at this at a perfect moment of global harmony

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Speaker 1: by any stretch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's important to remember that the people who

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Speaker 2: are obviously most affected by this are the people who

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Speaker 2: bombs are raining down upon, not people in the US.

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Speaker 2: But it just to go back to a story we

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Speaker 2: covered earlier. It really lays bare the importance of security funding.

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Speaker 2: And it looks like in Foxborough, mass that has reached

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Speaker 2: a conclusion and there will be games in Boston and

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Speaker 2: the Foxborough government won't be paying for security. As somebody

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Speaker 2: stepped up and made that call, probably the Craft family.

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Speaker 2: We don't know exactly, but some kind of conclusion has

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Speaker 2: been reached.

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Speaker 1: There, probably after listening to the way End.

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Speaker 2: Actually probably yeah, I'm sure that they once they were like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, it's being covered by hit soccer podcast

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Speaker 2: The Away, and we better get this dealt with.

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Speaker 1: But it is.

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Speaker 2: It's a reminder that the global fabric is really tearing

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Speaker 2: at the moment, and the United States is a big

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Speaker 2: part of that. And that's often been the case throughout history.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the US has often had a lot of

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Speaker 2: global political muscle. But it's all just a reminder that

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Speaker 2: a lot of what I thought of in our youth

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Speaker 2: as being stable was in fact fairly fragile when it

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Speaker 2: comes to American political institutions when it comes to American

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Speaker 2: foreign policy. That's not to say that like in the past,

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Speaker 2: the US covered itself in glory when it came to

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Speaker 2: its foreign policy or anything, but it is to say

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Speaker 2: that right now is an incredibly I was gonna say unprecedentedly,

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Speaker 2: but unfortunately I think there are precedents. It's just the

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Speaker 2: precedents should scare us. It is a precedentedly difficult moment.

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Speaker 1: Definitely. So Washington Nationals pitcher Sean Doolittle Shawn Dolittle. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what a great name for what a great quote.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And you have to say that you don't

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Speaker 2: think of Major League Baseball players as being necessarily fonceive wisdom.

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Speaker 2: But I have been completely proven wrong by Sean Doolittle.

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Speaker 1: I remember a New Yorker profile of Many Ramirez where

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Speaker 1: they asked a teammate of his if many Amirs felt

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Speaker 1: pressure in these, like, you know, intense playoff situations, and

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Speaker 1: his teammates said, Many Ramiirs is too dumb to feel pressure.

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Speaker 2: Something. There was a memoir by a Liverpool player I

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Speaker 2: can't remember which, which he said that when de Va

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Speaker 2: Karigi scored a critical last second, he only scored it

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Speaker 2: because he didn't know he was in the last minute

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Speaker 2: of the game.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, that's a good transition to the very silly,

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Speaker 1: uh next.

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Speaker 2: Silly for you. I mean, you're having a great time

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Speaker 2: with this, Daniel, because you're an Arsenal fan. You're having

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Speaker 2: a good old You're having a good old time. But

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Speaker 2: there are Tottenham fans out there who are really suffering

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Speaker 2: and whose lives are as real as yours, and whose

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Speaker 2: griefs are are as real as yours. And you know

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Speaker 2: they're going through a hard time right now.

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Speaker 1: They are. They are. I want to propose to you

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Speaker 1: a children's book. Okay, So I just want to say,

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Speaker 1: this is very petty and uh and I own petty.

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Speaker 1: It's very petty, and we sh maybe.

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Speaker 2: We should bring on Sean real quick as somebody who

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Speaker 2: doesn't know about Arsenal and Tottenham, just so we can

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Speaker 2: explain to Sean the Arsenal and Tottenham situation. Sewan, do

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Speaker 2: you know anything about Tottenham Hotspur?

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Speaker 3: I do not, I mean outside of them being a team.

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Speaker 3: But great, yeah, great, So I'll just give you a

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Speaker 3: little bit of background. You can respond to this while

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Speaker 3: Daniel just giggles in delight. So Arsenal and Tottenham are

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Speaker 3: big London rivals. Okay, they both are big teams in London.

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Speaker 3: They both have huge stadiums, huge followings around the world,

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Speaker 3: they're both big global football clubs. And Arsenal almost always

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Speaker 3: finish ahead of Tottenham. In fact, the day that they

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Speaker 3: guarantee that they finish above Tottenham is called Saint Tottenham's

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Speaker 3: Day by Arsenal fans. Totteringham's Yes, Totteringham, Sorry, thank you, Daniel.

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Speaker 3: He really wants me to get all this right.

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Speaker 2: It's important, it's important, and this year that day has

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Speaker 2: come very early because Arsenal are winning the Premier League

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Speaker 2: right now, and Tottenham, for the first time in like

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Speaker 2: living memory, are in real danger of relegation and being

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Speaker 2: kicked out of the Premier League entirely and being moved

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Speaker 2: down to the Championship, at which point there is a small,

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Speaker 2: small possibility that they will actually play the team that

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Speaker 2: I sponsor, AFC Wimbledon, So like next year, they could

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Speaker 2: potentially be playing a team that has MY logo on

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Speaker 2: their butts. That's how bad this.

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Speaker 1: Is or how beautiful it is actually, depending on how

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Speaker 1: you how you take it. So is that enough background?

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Speaker 1: Can I jump in here, so because you know, there's

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Speaker 1: all this nonsense talk about Arsenal winning the quadruple, which

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Speaker 1: is absurd. And I was actually talking with a friend

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Speaker 1: mine who said, if if we were to win the

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Speaker 1: quadruple and Tottenham go down, it would be the quintuple. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it would just feel so because they're not just London rivals, Becau,

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Speaker 1: there's lots of teams in London. Obviously they're North London rivals,

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Speaker 1: so they actually are in the same sector of London,

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Speaker 1: I suppose. So anyways, I was imagining, I was talking

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Speaker 1: with a friend and I just sort of it hit

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Speaker 1: me this children's book. So imagine Spurs Stadium and there's

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Speaker 1: a you know, a free kick, and the Spurs defense

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Speaker 1: sets up there and Sean, you know what a draft

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Speaker 1: excluder is? Do you know this terminology?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: No, I didn't know until today that this is what

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Speaker 1: it's called. The guy who lies down behind the wall

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Speaker 1: to make sure no one kicks it beneath the wall

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Speaker 1: kicks it. Often kicks it low because often the wall

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Speaker 1: will jump because ninety eight percent of the time if

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Speaker 1: people are shooting directly, they shoot over the wall on

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Speaker 1: very select occasions, and it has worked and it's always incredible.

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Speaker 1: Someone will sort of trick the wall in the jumping

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Speaker 1: and they'll shoot low and catching the goalkeeper off card.

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Speaker 1: So what some times then they lie this guy down

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Speaker 1: and then they lie this guy down behind the wall

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Speaker 1: and that guy has to literally cover his groin, close

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Speaker 1: his eyes and hope for the best, right, which is

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Speaker 1: an app metaphor. So I was imagining this opening scene

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Speaker 1: of this children's book. Tottenham set up a wall. You know,

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Speaker 1: some defender call him, you know, Mickey vandabn whatever lies

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Speaker 1: down and he's like, god, this is a nightmare. This

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Speaker 1: is a nightmare. He just closed his eyes, and when

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Speaker 1: he wakes up, the stadium's empty, the game is over

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Speaker 1: and Tottenham's been relegated. It's like it was like the

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Speaker 1: whole thing was a dream. And then we have this

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Speaker 1: children's book that is just like what he was imagining

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Speaker 1: what was going to happen, and then the rest of

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Speaker 1: the actual what ended up happening. And then at a

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Speaker 1: certain point it's almost like good you know, good night moon,

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Speaker 1: but it's like good bye Spurs, and it's just like

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Speaker 1: him walking around the stadium like turning out the lights

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Speaker 1: and uh, and then he you know, he walks off

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Speaker 1: into the sad, misty rain of North London and that's it.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think. I could probably get a

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Speaker 1: huge book deal for this. And I just think, John,

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Speaker 1: you know a lot about sewing books.

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Speaker 2: Goodbye Spurs. Yeah, I think you could. You could find

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Speaker 2: an audience for it. It's it would it would you'd

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Speaker 2: You'd have to lean heavily into the arsenal side of

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Speaker 2: North London. But I think you could find an audience

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Speaker 2: for it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I feel I feel that you are being a little petty,

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Speaker 2: a little overly cruel to tie them fans.

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Speaker 1: I completely embraced that at the beginning. I said that

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Speaker 1: no one would sit here and deny this isn't petty.

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Speaker 1: I have good friends who are sports fans. I just

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Speaker 1: think that part of being a fan is also laughing

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Speaker 1: at the misery of the other team, you know, Like

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Speaker 1: I don't do that in real I don't do that

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Speaker 1: in real life. I try to live my life in

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Speaker 1: a way that is carrying compassionate, you know, to my

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Speaker 1: fellow man, to my friends, to my family, to my

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Speaker 1: loved ones. But in this one sort of aspect of

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Speaker 1: my life, I feel like it's okay for me to

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Speaker 1: be the immature boy that I was at age eleven, Like,

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with that? I'm not hurting anybody. I'm not gonna,

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Speaker 1: you know, punch someone in the face at a bar

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Speaker 1: fight over this. I just think it's hilarious. I just

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Speaker 1: think it's so funny and I think it probably will incredible.

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Speaker 2: It will probably won't happen, but it is incredible that

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Speaker 2: this huge club with an eighty thousand person stadium or

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Speaker 2: whatever they have, the greatest in England. Yeah, the greatest

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Speaker 2: stadium in England, has fallen so far that they are

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Speaker 2: at real risk of next season playing me, essentially playing

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Speaker 2: players I bought, you know what I mean, Like, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's incredible, it is. It's InCred amazing, it's astonishing. It

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Speaker 2: is such a failure of leadership on such a profound

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Speaker 2: scale to have that big of a football club, that

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Speaker 2: much revenue and not be able to find a way

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Speaker 2: to squeak out forty one points in a thirty eight

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Speaker 2: game season. It is truly astonishing. And so we don't

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Speaker 2: usually talk about English club football, but we needed to

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Speaker 2: on this occase.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I just just thank you, and I thank you

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Speaker 1: for that. I think you for allowing me to bring

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Speaker 1: out this aspect, this very immature, petty childish uh you know,

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Speaker 1: source of joy for you, source of joy, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah. And I just want to say to my

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Speaker 1: friends who are Spurs fans, like, in all, honestly, I

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Speaker 1: don't think it'll happen. You know, you need like two

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Speaker 1: more wins to stay up, just as I don't think

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Speaker 1: the quadruple will happen, or maybe nothing will happen and

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Speaker 1: it will just be a regular season where our someone

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Speaker 1: did better than Spurs.

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Speaker 3: That's all so like, because of all that is Tottenham

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Speaker 3: cleaning house. Like, if this is as dire as you

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Speaker 3: guys are making it seem, well, they keep they keep

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Speaker 3: firing managers and it keeps not working. They keep having

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Speaker 3: to bring in new coaches who do an equally bad

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Speaker 3: or even worse job. And they can't really fire a

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Speaker 3: bunch of players, not least because all of their players

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Speaker 3: are currently injured. So they have this incredible injury crisis.

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Speaker 2: And in their last I mean, I don't mean to laugh,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but in their last game, in the last

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Speaker 2: thirty seconds, two of their players collided with each other

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Speaker 2: injuring each other, ensuring that neither of them can play

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Speaker 2: in the next game. So that's the level of like

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Speaker 2: just incredibly bad luck they're experiencing, but it is it

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Speaker 2: is a difficult moment for them.

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Speaker 1: Well I was, yeah, they're there. Their manager, the current

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Speaker 1: manager is this Croatian guy named de or Tutor, who

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Speaker 1: you know has all He said it in one of

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Speaker 1: his first reviews that like time's got three problems with

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Speaker 1: no defense, no midfield and no attack. And so he

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Speaker 1: just seems like a like a real uh like like

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Speaker 1: it was a real roll of the dice from the

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Speaker 1: board of Spurs to hire this guy. He had no

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Speaker 1: experience in English football, no experience, uh, no connection to

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Speaker 1: the club itself. Uh. They bring him on and uh

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Speaker 1: and all he does is talk shit about his players

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Speaker 1: and how bad they are and and it's you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: it just doesn't seem to be like the best psychological

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Speaker 1: approach to managing the crisis. You know, he's just not

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Speaker 1: the guy that you would want. It doesn't seem to me.

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Speaker 1: But you know, all those players if they do get relegated,

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Speaker 1: Sean And will say this, two thirds of their players

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Speaker 1: will leave because they have buyout clauses. I'm sure they're

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Speaker 1: not gonna play in the championship. These are people who

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Speaker 1: these are great players. They play on you know, their

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Speaker 1: international you know, they're they're they're national teams. You know,

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Speaker 1: these are wonderful footballers who never imagined they would be

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Speaker 1: in a in a relegation battle.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, when is the last like how long has

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Speaker 3: it been since that team has been relegated or like

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Speaker 3: have they ever?

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Speaker 1: They have been relegated before, but I can't remember when

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Speaker 1: it was, you know, like a long, a long time, long,

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Speaker 1: like decades ago. Yeah, and when will we find out?

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're recording this on Friday, March thirteenth, so

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Speaker 1: by the time you listen to this, you will have

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Speaker 1: seen Tottenham lose to Liverpool probably.

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Speaker 2: Maybe if if that's what happens. The last time they

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Speaker 2: were relegated, Jean, was nineteen seventy seven, so right around

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Speaker 2: the time that you and I and Daniel were coming

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Speaker 2: into the world. In fact, just two months before I

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Speaker 2: was born. Woow wow, what a gift. And I'm not young,

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Speaker 2: that's gonna get neither of all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we'll see, we'll see very exciting times to

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Speaker 1: be an Arsenal event.

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Speaker 2: All right, On that note, we're going to take a

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Speaker 2: break before Daniel continues to wax poetic for the next

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Speaker 2: hour and a half about how much he loves Arsenal.

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Speaker 1: All right, we're back on the away and John, you

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Speaker 1: have a deep dive for us today. Tell us all

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Speaker 1: about it.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the net. This is the

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Speaker 2: first time we've talked about a team that I think

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Speaker 2: has an actual chance to win the World Cup. According

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Speaker 2: to the bookies, the Dutch are the eighth favorite to

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Speaker 2: win the World Cup, so certainly not a favorite, but

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Speaker 2: also not a favorite. According to the bookies, it's about

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Speaker 2: ten times more likely that the Dutch will win the

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Speaker 2: World Cup than the United States. This is a nation,

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Speaker 2: as I'm sure you're aware, Daniel, of tremendous footballing passion.

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Speaker 2: It's also a nation where I once lived for a

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Speaker 2: few months in twenty eleven while I was finishing my

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Speaker 2: book The Fault Inner Stars. I lived in Amsterdam and

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Speaker 2: I got to see the passion of Dutch football fans

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Speaker 2: up close. It is a nation that truly loves its sports,

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Speaker 2: whether that is speed skating or football. They love to

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Speaker 2: wear orange. They wear a lot of orange wigs. There

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Speaker 2: is a lot of passion it is an incredible experience.

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Speaker 2: I remember actually that year the National League came down

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Speaker 2: to one last game and one of the teams in

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Speaker 2: it were IAX, who play in Amsterdam, and so we

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Speaker 2: saw all the IAX fans like marching to the train

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Speaker 2: station and singing their songs. And my son was one

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Speaker 2: at the time, and I said, Henry, we should go

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Speaker 2: to a bar and watch the game. And Henry didn't

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Speaker 2: really speak, so he didn't really have a choice. And Daniel,

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Speaker 2: for those of you who are just listening, Daniel is

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Speaker 2: making a face right now, and it's a good face.

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Speaker 2: He's making a face of dubiousness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a face of like did someone call child

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Speaker 1: Protective Services? Like what were you thinking? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So I took my one year old to a bar

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Speaker 2: to watch the IAX game where IAX had to win

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Speaker 2: the game in order to win the league. And it

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Speaker 2: was a bar just outside where we lived, just across

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Speaker 2: the street actually, and I got myself a pint of

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Speaker 2: beer and settled in to watch the game. And then

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Speaker 2: by the time the game actually started, there were about

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Speaker 2: four hundred people behind me, all wearing Iye ex Jersey's,

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Speaker 2: all singing in unison. Henry was having a great old time.

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Speaker 2: He loves to sing along, and everything was great until

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Speaker 2: the fans took over the bar, kicked out the bartender

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Speaker 2: and began pouring their own pints of beer. And then

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Speaker 2: a person was standing on a chair singing behind me

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Speaker 2: and became so drunk that he fell off the chair,

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Speaker 2: hitting his head and there was a lot of blood

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Speaker 2: pouring around, pouring off of his head. And at that point, Henry,

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Speaker 2: who again was one, was having a little less fun.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, oh, we should probably make our

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Speaker 2: way out of here, which proved to be pretty difficult

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Speaker 2: because no longer was the bartender in control of the bar,

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Speaker 2: and there were like four hundred people pouring their own drinks,

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Speaker 2: and we sort of weaseled our way out of there,

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Speaker 2: and by the time he got out of there, Henry

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Speaker 2: was in a right state. And I think that's why

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Speaker 2: he still doesn't like football very much.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, yeah he Anyway, i AX won the game

401
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: that he's the boxer. It was his first bar bral Yeah, yeah, yeah,

402
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Speaker 1: he witnessed his first bar ball and fell in love

403
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Speaker 1: with boxing instead of with Sadly, but IAX did win

404
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Speaker 1: the game and the league. It was their thirtieth league title,

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Speaker 1: as I recall the third star on their uniform, but

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Speaker 1: so congratulations to them. I went to the big gathering

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Speaker 1: after that of tens of thousands of IAX fans just

408
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Speaker 1: to be a fly on the wall in a big

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Speaker 1: park in Amsterdam and it was an incredible experience.

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Speaker 2: But point being Peter Henry for that. No, by that

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Speaker 2: time I had learned my lasson good parenting decision their time,

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Bud. People in the Netherlands love football. The

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Speaker 2: Dutch pioneered so called total football with Johann Croif in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies. They reached the World Cup final twice

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Speaker 2: in the seventies and once in twenty ten, but have

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Speaker 2: never won a major trophy and are widely seen as

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Speaker 2: the best national team never to have won one. That

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00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 2: game in twenty ten was really indicative of something that

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Speaker 2: we've talked about before on the Away and which is

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Speaker 2: that the old notions of like Nctional football DNA have

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Speaker 2: sort of gone away. Like the Netherlands has been known

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Speaker 2: over the years for its free flowing total football. The

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Speaker 2: fullbacks get forward and everybody's playing an attack and everybody's

424
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Speaker 2: playing in defense, and that has kind of become global

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Speaker 2: football now. But in that twenty ten final, the Netherlands

426
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Speaker 2: were actually very physical, very defensive, very tactical, and if

427
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 2: we're being honest, probably did not deserve to win, and

428
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 2: indeed did not win.

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Speaker 1: What I remember from that game, John, apart from the

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Speaker 1: Anderseniesta goal that won it in extra time, was Nigel

431
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 1: Leyong planting his cleats directly in Tabulonso's chest. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: getting go away with it without it so much as

433
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 1: a yellow card. Yeah, in a different era, in the

434
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: video assistant referee era, that would have been a definite red.

435
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: But that was sort of the approach that the Dutch

436
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: took to the game overall, was very very very physical,

437
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: and you know, it didn't work. It was probably their

438
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: best chance. I mean, Spain were so much.

439
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 2: Better on the ball, quicker, all that stuff, but yeah,

440
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 2: it was one of those games that could have gone

441
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 2: either way. And then and he has to scored an

442
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: extra time and now we remember it as inevitable, the

443
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 2: way that history gets written down as inevitable, when of course,

444
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 2: while it's happening, nobody knows what it means as we

445
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: are currently observing, well say, at any rate these days,

446
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: the Dutch national team is absolutely stacked. Maybe not as

447
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 2: stacked as France or Spain, or Germany or England, but

448
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 2: we're talking about players like Cody Gakpo, Ryan Gravenburg, the

449
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: aging Virgil van Dijk, all of whom play at Liverpool FC. Arguably, certainly,

450
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,959
Speaker 2: I would argue it the best football club in the

451
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 2: history of the world. You've got Barcelona's Frankie Deyong, You've

452
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 2: got Arsenals, you're in Timber. That said, the Dutch national

453
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 2: team is always good. The question for me is whether

454
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: they're better than the best teams, and I just don't

455
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: think they are. If they couldn't win in those golden

456
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: generations in the seventies and in twenty ten, it's hard

457
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 2: to see for me how they win with this group

458
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 2: of players. It's always possible, but I think a good outcome.

459
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 2: In talking to my Dutch friends about this before recording this,

460
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 2: you know they were saying, a good outcome is the quarterfinals.

461
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 2: A great outcome as the semifinals, but of course we

462
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: expect to win, and I just think that's such a

463
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: beautiful notion that like a great outcome would be the semifinals,

464
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: but we still want to win. We still think we

465
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 2: can win, because that's the nature of football, right Like

466
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: you always are dreaming of winning. So that's what I

467
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: think would be a good outcome for them, is a

468
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: semifinals run, which would not be too far off what

469
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 2: happened in the last World Cup. But I just think

470
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: eventually they're going to run into a team like France, Spain,

471
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 2: maybe like Brazil or Argentina that's going to be too

472
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: good for them.

473
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: I have a question for you, John, do you think

474
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: that a version of that kind of deluded sense of

475
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: possibility that you just described among fans is necessary for

476
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: the players too when they enter a tournament like this.

477
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 1: Do they have to believe that the impossible can happen

478
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: in order to make it possible.

479
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: Well, we've talked about this before. The professional football players,

480
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: professional athletes in general, have a level of self belief

481
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 2: that most of us don't have. I certainly don't have

482
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 2: that level of self belief about anything, including my writing

483
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: or my podcasting, right Like, I don't wake up in

484
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: the morning and think I am one of the greatest

485
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: players in the history of the world in soccer podcasting,

486
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: and I don't have to in order to do what

487
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: I do. I think that really good athletes have to.

488
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: I remember once I participated in Sydney Green's basketball camp.

489
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: My mother's name is Sidney Green, but there was also

490
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 2: an Orlando Magic player named Sidney Green. Spelled it differently,

491
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 2: but same pronunciation. And Sydney Green came and spoke to

492
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: us one of the days of his basketball camp, and

493
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: he was like, I am the best player in the world.

494
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: And I may not have made the All Star team,

495
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: I may not have won the MVP, but I believe

496
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: I am the best or one of the best players

497
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: in the world. And this was a very middling player

498
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: on the Orlando Magic, who at the time were not

499
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: a particularly good team. But he had to believe that

500
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: in order to get where he got, and so I

501
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: took the middle. He had to believe in his own

502
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: greatness to rise to the middle.

503
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: Good for him. I love it.

504
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: You love it, yeah, and I think you have. I

505
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: mean when you said that when you would watch the

506
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 2: New York Red Bulls, you could squint and imagine yourself

507
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: playing there, if only you'd worked harder. I don't think

508
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: you were entirely kidding, man.

509
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,959
Speaker 1: I wasn't, no, and I wonder if that says more

510
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: about my deluded sense of like what I was at

511
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: my athletic peak versus sort of my cold and possibly

512
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: harsh assessment of what I was seeing on the pitch.

513
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: I think it might. I think it might without without

514
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 2: trying to bring you down too many notches. I think

515
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: it might so fair. I do think that you have

516
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: to believe that you can win. I do think that

517
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: you've got to go to the tournament and think we

518
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: could be the team that the miracle happens too. This

519
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: could be the year, And I think believing this could

520
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: be the year is a valuable thing. Like I tell

521
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,239
Speaker 2: myself that before every book, I tell myself, like, this

522
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: could be the book that really has a big impact,

523
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 2: that really, you know, it has a life different from

524
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: what I could imagine for it and bigger than what

525
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: I could imagine for it. I've told myself that before.

526
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I feel like you're being hard on yourself.

527
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: I mean in the sense I mean all your books

528
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: have had a huge impact. You've had millions of readers,

529
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: and you've changed people's lives, and and you know, young

530
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: people and middle aged people and old people talk about

531
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: your books. I mean, I come across fans of yours

532
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: in Latin America all the time.

533
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the next one could be really huge.

534
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: But the next one could be really huge. You're right,

535
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: there's probably some people who haven't read your book, like

536
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: the lawyer for the deposition last week. You know, you

537
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: still haven't reached everyone.

538
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

539
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, you haven't reached everyone. So there's there's you know,

540
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: reaching as many people. That would be a good outcome.

541
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: Reaching every human being alive is.

542
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: What you know, that would be a great outcome.

543
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

544
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Lebron James of authors, that's the goal where

545
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 2: you're like Clive Cussler and you died in twenty twenty,

546
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: but you've still got two books coming out this year.

547
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

548
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: Wow. All right, let's take a break.

549
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 4: Thank you for that, and we'll come back with a story.

550
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: All right, Daniel, we're back at the away end, and

551
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: I believe it is time for you to make your

552
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 2: peace with the fans of the nation of Chile.

553
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: Yes, I'll give a little context. A couple of weeks ago,

554
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: when we did our sort of hierarchy of loyalties, I

555
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: placed Chile at the bottom because of sort of nationalism

556
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: and again pettiness, and I was thinking about I have

557
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: a lot of wonderful Chilean friends, and so I wanted

558
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: to sort of tell a really great and admirable and

559
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: inspiring Chilean soccer story. The first person to tell his

560
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: story was a Chilean friend of mine named Dennis Dennis Maxwell,

561
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: who actually reported this for the Spanish language podcast that

562
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: I run called rad and if you speak Spanish, you

563
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: should go listen to it. So the story basically starts

564
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: on September eleventh, nineteen seventy three. That's the date that

565
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: Chilean General Augusto Pinochet led a military coup against the

566
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: civilian government. He actually bombed the equivalent of the Chilean

567
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: White House, which is called the Palace La Monea in

568
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: Central Santiago, and the democratically elected president Sarva do Royende

569
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: ended up taking his own life, and so began, I

570
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: guess one of the most violent and brutal dictatorships in

571
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: Latin America. There's a lot of competition for that title.

572
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: Believe me, I'll give you the broad outline because this

573
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: is a soccer podcast and not politics or history of

574
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: Latin America podcast. But there were thousands killed and disappeared.

575
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: Nearly thirty thousand Chileans were forced into exile and its

576
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: pertains to soccer. The national stadium in Santiago Anal was

577
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: turning to a jail and a torture center. So the

578
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: national team. Remember the years nineteen seventy three, the national

579
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: team is known as La Roja, and they were preparing

580
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: it for an intercontinental playoff with the Soviet Union, one

581
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: of those home and away games, and the stakes are

582
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: super high because the winner on aggregate goes on to

583
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy four World Cup that was gonna be

584
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: played in West Germany. So the team was on a

585
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: brief tour. They're playing friendly matches before the trip to Moscow,

586
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: and one of the stars of that team was a

587
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: guy named Carlos Casselli. Carlos was a much loved player

588
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: and actually Dennis interviewed him and he said that it

589
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: was surprising for him that after the games, you know,

590
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: Chilean fans or people who come up to him, and

591
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: no one wanted to talk about soccer. Everyone wanted to

592
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: ask what was happening in Chile, and sometimes they had

593
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: more news than what people in Chile had back home

594
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: because it was so much censorship. This was like in

595
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: the immediate weeks after the coup. Eventually the team flies

596
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: to the USSR, which had that point had broken diplomatic

597
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: relationships with the new military dictatorship in charge of Chile,

598
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: and so Carlos and the rest of the team they're

599
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: treated as if they're like emissaries and supporters of this coup.

600
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: They're booed for the entire ninety minutes in Moscow, but

601
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: somehow they come away with a scoreless draw to take

602
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: back home to Diago. So now we're up to the

603
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: second game. It's zero zero. The second game is going

604
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: to take place on November twenty first, nineteen seventy three.

605
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: But there's a problem, which is the Chilean military, as

606
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: I mentioned, are using the National Stadium as a place

607
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: to keep dissidents and students or people that might be

608
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 1: perceived as a thread, and they have them in kind

609
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: of in jail basically, and they're torturing them and stuff.

610
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: That story is leaked out by that point, and the

611
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: Soviet Union says it refuses to play in a stadium

612
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: that's quote soaked in blood. The Chilean military obviously denies

613
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: that there's any detainees in the stadium, and so to

614
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: kind of adjudicate this question. FIFA sends an inspector. So

615
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: Dennis actually interviewed a few people who were detainees in

616
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: the stadium. We know that this is true. One of

617
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: them was this guy in Jorgemental and he says, on

618
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: the day of the FIFA was inspecting the grounds of

619
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: the National Stadium. They were basically forced into the bowels

620
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: of the stadium and at the point of a gun

621
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: are told don't make a sound. FIFA comes in, takes

622
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 1: a look at is like, oh, everything's fine. There were

623
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: probably like seven thousand detainees in the stadium at the time,

624
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: but FIFA, what do you know, They didn't see anything,

625
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: and so they declared the stadium fit and the game

626
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: has to go forward. The thing is that it's not

627
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: clear at that point that the Soviet Union is going

628
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 1: to send its team or not. No one really knows.

629
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: The game is scheduled, and Carlos Casselli told Dennis that

630
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: even on that day until the whistle blew, the players

631
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: really didn't even know if another team was going to

632
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 1: come out of the tunnel and into the stadium. If

633
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: this was a normal match, you know, a game between

634
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: two countries that were literally playing for a place at

635
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: the World Cup, the biggest sporting event on Earth. You

636
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: would imagine a packed stadium with like fifty sixty thousand

637
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: fans chanting, singing for the national team. But this was

638
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: not that these were not normal times. There were like

639
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: seventeen thousand fans, which is really like a smattering of people,

640
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: and the game itself bizarrely lasted like a minute less

641
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: than a minute. Actually, the seven thousand detainees, in case

642
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: you're wondering, they'd been moved to a separate attention facility

643
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: for this game, so the USSR didn't send their team.

644
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: So the Chileans are lined up against nobody, against literally

645
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: against nobody, but just to kind of go through the

646
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: protocol of it, they have to kick off and they

647
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: have to score. So they kick off and they just

648
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: basically kind of look around, walk the ball down the field,

649
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: and then kick the ball into an open net. The ref,

650
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: who incidentally was a land ref not a FIFA ref,

651
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: blows the whistle. The game is over. Chile wins one

652
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: nothing and goes on to the nineteen seventy four World Cup.

653
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 2: So crazy.

654
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: Imagine the stadium and you're playing against nobody, so At

655
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: the actual World Cup, CHILEA does pretty miserably, a couple

656
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: of draws and a loss. They have one goal to

657
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: show for their troubles. But probably the most important part

658
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 1: of this World Cup campaign comes before the team even

659
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: leaves Chile, when they're invited to the Palazio to meet

660
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: the dictator, Augusto Pinochet, and he's going to wish them

661
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: good luck, kind of this protocol thing that they do.

662
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 1: And here's where Carlos Casselli does something really remarkable. Pinochet

663
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: is going down the line shaking everyone's hand in Cardos

664
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: Casselli just puts his hands behind his back and refuses

665
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: to shake Pinochet his hand. This is an act of

666
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 1: extraordinary courage in this moment. There were many people in prison,

667
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: you know, as thousands at that point, people heading in exile,

668
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: people being forcibly disappeared, tons of fear, and I just

669
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: can't say enough about the dignity and the bravery of

670
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: someone like that in that moment to take that decision

671
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: that you know could easily cost you your life. But

672
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 1: he does it. And what's kind of beautiful about the story,

673
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: and one reasons I love it is it kind of

674
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: comes full circle, right so about ten years later, Casselli

675
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: retires from professional football. It's nineteen eighty five and there's

676
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: kind of a testimonial farewell match organized and it's being

677
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: held at the Stadi naa Jorgementalegre, who we talk to

678
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: in this episode. He was seventeen eighteen at the time

679
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: he was detained in the stadium. He told us that

680
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: when he was a kid, he used to go to

681
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: games at that stadium with his family, and then after

682
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 1: he was detained there, he could never go back until

683
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: Casselli's farewell game. Cassetti had become famous and kind of

684
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: beloved among people opposed to the dictatorship because he took

685
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: that kind of brave decision not to shake hands with Pinochet.

686
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: RK says that he was at that game and it

687
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: was cathartic and it was healing, in particular for one reason,

688
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: the same reason that no television channels chose to broadcast

689
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: that game. Because of Casselli's unique position within the culture

690
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: and within soccer. His testimonial became one of the first

691
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: mass displays of defiance, so people singing his name, but

692
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: also singing ebach guy head, ebach guyhead, ebach ay. He

693
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: back guy Ebach guyed, which is one of the famous

694
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,240
Speaker 1: chants against the dictatorship. It's gonna fall, It's gonna fall,

695
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: the dictatorship will fall. No channels showed on TV because

696
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 1: this is still in the middle of the Pinochet regime,

697
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: but one radio station did rather Copatia, and people all

698
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: over the country heard it. And this is just one

699
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: of those moments I think about a lot, and I

700
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: think about what it means to be brave, what it

701
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 1: means to show courage, what it means to show dignity

702
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: in moments when maybe it would be easier just to

703
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: reach out and shake the dictator's hand. So within three years,

704
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty eight, when the continuation of the dictatorship

705
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 1: was put up to a vote, the very famous Pletiscite

706
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: of Chile, to many people surprise, the country stood up

707
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: and voted no. So anyway, I just want to give

708
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: a shout out to Carlos Casselli, one of the greats,

709
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: and of course my friend Dennis and everyone I fine

710
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: will want to help produce that story. But yeah, it's

711
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: one of those stories that I just love.

712
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really beautiful story, and I think one

713
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 2: that has many resonances for our moment, one that resonates

714
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 2: across the globe right now, but especially in my own

715
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 2: life as an American, it resonates as well. So thank

716
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: you for that story, Daniel. And it's really really beautifully

717
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 2: told worthy of Dare I say at a MacArthur Genius

718
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 2: Grant winner.

719
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: You'd hear it in Spanish.

720
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 2: By the way, I will stop talking about you're a

721
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 2: MacArthur Genius Grant when never. Okay, let's get to the mail.

722
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 2: We're gonna cover some recent emails we got, beginning with

723
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 2: this one from Rachel, who writes, Hi, John and Daniel.

724
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: This is not a question, but I just wanted to

725
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 2: say I was inspired by this podcast to actually watch soccer,

726
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 2: and I went to my first game tonight, specifically DC

727
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: United versus inter Miami, held at M and T. Banks

728
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 2: Stadium in Baltimore. I had a wonderful time and would

729
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 2: definitely go to another match if given the chance. Rachel, Rachel,

730
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: that makes me so happy to know that you went

731
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 2: to a actual football game as a result of this podcast.

732
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 2: Thank you.

733
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 1: I remember the first time I took to my oldest

734
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: son to a actual live soccer game in a stadium

735
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: and we brought him up the stairs. We'd watched a

736
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: ton of soccer on TV and he loved played it

737
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: in the park with his friends, and we walked up

738
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: the stadium steps and when you step out through the

739
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: concourse and you can see the field, he did like that,

740
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 1: like a sharp intake of breath, and he said, this

741
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: is so unusual for my eyes.

742
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: Oh, I love that.

743
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: I do love that. It's one of those phrases that

744
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: your kids say that you remember forever and and it's

745
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: true because the experience of being in stadium is so different.

746
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: You really have, you know, this kind of vantage point

747
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: that you that you otherwise would never get. You know,

748
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: you don't see it on TV. You don't see the

749
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: whole field. You don't see where the players are moving.

750
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: You don't feel the way an entire stadium holds its

751
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: breath right before a goal, you know, right for a chance.

752
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's a really remarkable experience. I think, uh,

753
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,720
Speaker 1: the MLS, Hancho's should give us free tickets because we're

754
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: inspiring people to go to the games, just putting it

755
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: out there.

756
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'll drive to Cincinnati to watch Cincinnati FC.

757
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: Sure, why not? In the same way that we helped

758
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 1: tilt the balance for the Foxborough City Council. I think, uh, yeah,

759
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: we might. We might really be what's gonna get them

760
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: MLS numbers up where they need.

761
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 2: To be well. England Revolution owner Robert Kraft is a

762
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 2: fan of the pod. I think we know that. We

763
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: don't know it for a fact, but I think we

764
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: know it by inference, you know. So yeah, it makes

765
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 2: sense that we were able to kind of settle that

766
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 2: Foxboro mass issue with our coverage.

767
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 1: I'm really proud of us, John, really proud of us.

768
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: Me too, Man, me too.

769
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to read this email mostly because I

770
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: want to. I want to. I love it, but I

771
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,439
Speaker 1: also want to recommend a documentary that Lucas will love.

772
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: So Lucas writes, Hello, everyone, thank you for producing such

773
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: a wonderful show which helps me discover new ways to

774
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: think about my favorite sport. My wife's family is from

775
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: El Salvador, and mine is from Italy and Ireland. Both

776
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: of us and our families take both great joy and

777
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: more often experience a good deal of pain because of

778
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: the respective results of our country's national teams. My question

779
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: comes out of your conversations about relative expectations of our

780
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: teams and what counts of success. So which of these

781
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: scenarios will most likely happen? Soonest One El Salvador qualifies

782
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: for the World Cup, Two Ireland progresses further than England

783
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: in a major tournament, and three Italy wins a World Cup.

784
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 2: Hmmm, that's tough. None of those are super likely. None

785
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 2: of those are super likely. I mean I could see

786
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 2: Italy winning a World Cup before I could see Ireland

787
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 2: progressing further than England in a major tournament. El Salvador

788
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: is the wild card for me.

789
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly, if El Salvador had it, this was the year.

790
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: You know, the heavy hitters of CONCACAF were not in

791
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: the qualifying matches, so this was the time for.

792
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 2: Asalm made it for God's sakes.

793
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry to Lucas's wife, but this was

794
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: really a big bissed opportunity here. But I used to

795
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: play in Oakland, California. I think I've mentioned a dozen times,

796
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: and so we played a league with my wonderful club team,

797
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: Left WINGFC, and the ref was Salvadoran And one day,

798
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: you know, after the game, we were chatting up the

799
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 1: referee as one and it turned out that he had

800
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 1: been on the World Cup team, you KNOWL Salvador in

801
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two when they went to Spain. Yeah wow,

802
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: and he was living in the Bay Area and refing games.

803
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 1: He's probably in his fifties. I don't know. I mean,

804
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: you know, hard to tell. And it was kind of

805
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: remarkable to have this. I mean, it was like for

806
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: me a brush with fame. Oh my god, someone who

807
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: played in the World Cup. Now El Salvador. That World Cup,

808
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: you know, was just brutalized. Basically, they lost all three

809
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 1: matches and they played a game and I can't remember

810
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: right now off the top of my head because it

811
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: was against Hungary. It might have been against the Hungary,

812
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: but they lost ten to one, which is one of

813
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: the worst results ever in the history of World Cup. However,

814
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: there is on YouTube you can find it Lucas and anybody,

815
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: really wonderful documentary called Uno Lestoria ion The History of

816
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,439
Speaker 1: a Goal that is the story of the one goal

817
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: that El Salvador scored in that World Cup. And it's

818
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: a lovely documentary and it sort of actually gets at

819
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: this this thing we've been talking about, which is like,

820
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: what would it mean to different countries, you know, and

821
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: you get the sense from watching that documentary that what

822
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: really matters was being there and then having this moment

823
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: to celebrate, because the players celebrate that one goal as

824
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: if as if they'd won the entire thing. You know,

825
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: it's beautiful. So yeah, guess Lucas go check out that

826
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,479
Speaker 1: documentary and we have one last question.

827
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll read this email from Robert, who says a

828
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 2: longtime fan of John's work and newfound fan of Daniels,

829
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 2: I just wanted to write into thank you guys for

830
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 2: helping me, helping fuel my love of footy. A decade ago,

831
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: I dated a wonderful woman from Australia who hated the

832
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 2: Australian Football League and together we became longtime timbers, AFC

833
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 2: Fiorn Tina and Liverpool fans. Since he're passing in twenty sixteen,

834
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: as well as a number of other factors, I only

835
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 2: allow my love of the beautiful game to exist and

836
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 2: pop ups on my sports apps and occasionally scarf wearing

837
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: when patronizing my local German food place. But I saw

838
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: a real on Facebook of you two and knew I

839
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 2: had to immediately binge all seven episodes and I've already

840
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 2: ordered another kid and a fresh Fiorentina Battistuta jersey, as

841
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 2: my old one seems to have vanished from the closet.

842
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 2: The passion was always there, but it took two great

843
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 2: writers and hilarious podcasters to rekindle the embers. Thank you

844
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,479
Speaker 2: both and Sean so so much much love and pray

845
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 2: that Fiorentina rebounds and avoids relegation. Robert, Wow, that's such

846
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: a great email. I'm so pleased to Robert. I'm so

847
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: happy that we could have been a part of that.

848
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 2: I also want to commend you the Battistuta, great player obviously,

849
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 2: and Fiorentina lovely jerseys man, the Purple, the Purple, some

850
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 2: of the best jerseys in the game. They avoid relegation

851
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 2: just so that they can stay. I mean, in general,

852
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 2: syria A jerseys are the best, like Benitzia has incredible jerseys,

853
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: Parma has great jerseys. But man, those Fiorentina jerseys are gorgeous.

854
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: Not absolutely and quite a lovely coincidence that you did

855
00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: Netherlands for Robert today on Today's Yeah, it was a gift. Yeah,

856
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: wonderful man. That warms my heart and my only question

857
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: is what is German food, which I don't know if

858
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 1: the answer to, but oh, it's all.

859
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 2: Like sausages, brought some sour kraut. We used to have

860
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,760
Speaker 2: a German when I was in my internet dating phase Daniel,

861
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 2: before Sarah and I rekindled our high school acquaintanceship and

862
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 2: fell in love and everything. I'd had this internet dating

863
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: phase and there was a German restaurant just down the

864
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 2: block from where I lived, and that's where I would

865
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 2: take all of my internet dates. It was called the

866
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 2: Browhouse and they served they served beer in glass boots

867
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 2: in Chicago. And I remember taking a Hannah, a rent scholar,

868
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 2: to the Browhouse and she was like, what.

869
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: The hell is this place?

870
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 2: Hmm? But it was great, man, it was you know,

871
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 2: a whole lot.

872
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: I'm taking up my headphone because I need to show

873
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: you something.

874
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: Okay, well, Daniel's gone. I'll just say that, like, I

875
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 2: was not a genius it came to internet dating. It'll

876
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: surprise you to learn.

877
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: Look at you look at that glass boot. Was it

878
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: like this was this where you? It was than that,

879
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: but it was that it is a dainty little This

880
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: is a dainty little Yeah, that's.

881
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 2: These were proper glass boots of beer, you know, like

882
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 2: you wouldn't feel great after you drank one. But yeah,

883
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 2: I looking back, I mean I often look back at

884
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 2: my twenties and think what the hell was I doing?

885
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:30,399
Speaker 2: But I look back in that and I just think,

886
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 2: what the hell was I doing? Why didn't I? You know,

887
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 2: I could have I could have taken them anywhere. I

888
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 2: took them to the brown House and no wonder. I

889
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 2: had so a few second dates, no wonder.

890
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, uh, I yeah, I'm not going to tee.

891
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: I was. I only went on one Internet dating. It

892
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: was terrible, and I'm so glad to be married that

893
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 1: I missed that, so glad.

894
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I would not be good at it. I

895
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: mean I wasn't good at it when I had to

896
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 2: do it. It's kind of a miracle. And I know

897
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 2: that we need to end the podcast, but I'll just

898
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: say here at the end, when no one's listening anyway,

899
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 2: that it's kind of a miracle that Sarah fell for me,

900
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 2: like we all thought somebody recently, I know, I remember,

901
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 2: actually I remember when my first book came out. Sarah

902
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 2: was at the book launch party in Birmingham and doctor Cooper,

903
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: our high school history teacher said, what are you doing here?

904
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 2: And she said, I'm dating John And he said why a.

905
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: Wow, doctor Cooper. You know you study history, you really

906
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: don't have time for sort of social niceties. You just

907
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: say it, like.

908
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 2: God, What a great teacher he was. He's a great teacher.

909
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: Is still is is? Yeah?

910
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 2: Yeah? All right, Well, thanks to everybody for listening and

911
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 2: allowing us to wax poetic abount our our earlier days.

912
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 2: We appreciate you being here so much, and we'll see

913
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 2: you next week.

914
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks to Brusus, Sean Titane and Kirk, and remember

915
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: to send your emails away endpod at gmail dot com.

916
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. I'll see you next week. John. All

917
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 1: right m hm