WEBVTT - 7. The Verdict 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.000 Hi, I'm the Owaishaw. You may know me as the 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:05.880 former host of Visibilia. Well, I'm back with a new 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.560 show called Proxy. It's about the niche emotional questions that 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:12.120 no one in your life can relate to. That's where 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.800 Proxy comes in. I'll connect you to researchers and strangers 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:19.320 with shared experience, and you'll get to ask all your questions. 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.000 We're kicking things off with a three part series on 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.479 the emotional and mental health toll of layoffs. Subscribe to 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:33.839 Proxy wherever you get your podcasts. 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.800 This is episode seven of Because the Bus belongs to Us. 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:44.960 I'm Jesse, I'm Holly, and i am James. 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.440 That's right. For this final episode, Jesse and Holly must 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.040 face a panel of queers who will decide once and 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:55.640 for all if Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. Who 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:58.880 am I? You ask, well, I am an actual, legitimate 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.920 queer in stem I've spent the last decade working in 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:09.960 engineering in life science, building robots basically because seeing is 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:12.560 Jesse and Holly have spent the entire series saying that 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.440 they are on a serious scientific mission. They've drafted me 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:17.720 in to give them the cloud that they so desperately need. 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:21.840 As you'll remember, way back in episode one, Holly and 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:26.200 Jesse anointed themselves with queer scientist researcher status. I went 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.480 on a mission to get Bruce Springsteen recognized as a 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:32.959 queer icon. That mission is finally coming to a close. 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.800 They've discussed if Bruce's camp, if he can be rooted 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:41.520 for as an underdog, and if you can dance, cry, 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:46.560 and falk to Bruce Springstein's music. Now it's time for 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:50.320 the final point on their checklist. Our hosts must present 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.400 their evidence to a panel of queer experts who don't 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.960 already think that Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. Does 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:03.840 Bruce have it? Okay, let's go in the hot seats. 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.600 We have our two self proclaimed queer scientists, Holly Cassio 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.320 and Jesse Lawson. Please introduce yourselves and explain why you 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.720 feel qualified to the store yourselves with this scientific investigation. 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:16.440 Let's start with Jesse. 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:19.960 Hello, my name is Jesse. I U say then pronouns. 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.239 I'm a tourist, I am an audio producer, youth worker 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:27.679 and perform drag as butcher Springsteen and I have been 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:31.840 a proper Bruce fan for the last ten years. He 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:33.800 helped to drag me out of the closet of my 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:35.960 own brain, and that is why I feel qualified for 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:36.560 this panel. 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:39.679 Amazing and now, Holly. 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.799 Hi, I'm Holly, my pronouns are there. She I'm a Leoh. 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.520 I'm also a zine maker and a comic artist. I'm 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.200 the author of the Me and Bruce zine series, and 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.920 I also made the Looking for Bruce graphic memoir. I've 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.440 been a proper Bruce fan for about twenty five years 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:58.079 and he was my first ever queer friend, and that's 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.760 why I'm qualified to be part of this investigation. 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:07.160 Thanks, seeing as you've said multiple times over the series 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.760 that you're doing a proper scientific investigation into Bruce Springsteen's 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:14.079 queer icon status. This episode is taking the form of 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.880 an academic peer review. I have collected a panel of 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:22.040 leading experts in this field, queer icondom. They will be 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.960 presented with Holly and Jesse's research and be asked to 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:29.120 interrogate its aims, purpose, methodology, and the ethics and value 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.080 of this work. It is my pleasure to welcome that 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:39.280 panel today. Firstly, welcome Zakia Gibbons. Please introduce yourselves, explain 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.600 a little bit about why your best place to evaluate 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.880 this investigation, and for bonus points, I'd love to know your. 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:51.520 Current relationship status with Bruce. Hello, thank you for having me. 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.160 I mean, y'all did your ZOOI X science. I guess 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.200 I'll give you mine. I'm a kind answer. I'm also 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:02.800 a chaotic bisexual living in gay Ass Brooklyn, and I'm 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:07.280 from gay ass Atlanta, and I am a journalist covering 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:14.000 gay ass shit and my current relationship status with the Boss. 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:20.560 I honestly know nothing about Bruce Bringsteen. I don't think 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.080 I've ever listened to a whole song from beginning to end. 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:28.080 I am kind of coming in pretty neutral awesome. 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.320 Next, you have Hugh Lemmy. Please tell us about your 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.680 pedigree and explain your current relationship to the idea of 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:35.960 the Boss as a queer icon. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:36.800 Hi. 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.160 My name is ce Lemmy. I'm a writer and co 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.320 host of the podcast Bad Gays, and as a fully 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.599 registered and accredited to practicing homosexual, I think it's my right, 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.040 if not my duty, in fact, to be as judgmental 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.880 as I please about straight guys. But I do think 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.320 as a fan of the Boss for two decades or 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:56.440 more in good standing, I think I'm yet to be 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:58.960 convinced to the queerness of his icon status. 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:02.720 Oh things are heating up. And finally, Joelle Taylor, you 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:03.240 know what to do. 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:08.159 Yeah, Man's Joel Taylor, a poet and author, and my 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:12.160 latest poetry collection is called Conto and Other Poems. And 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.280 then Alphabet, which is a novel both look in part 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:19.120 of subculture of the eighties and nineties and reveals it 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:21.880 to be part of a space of radical friendship and community. 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.440 If you've seen the Rebel Dykes film, that's the kind 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.280 of era I'm talking about. And as such, and as 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:30.200 somebody who's part of that whole scene, somebody thinks of 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:32.520 the kind of things we did to you know, as queer, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.360 as how we squatted and how we come to And 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.080 I just can't entertain the idea. And Bruce Springsteen is 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:41.440 a queer icon. I think she's everything that queer icon 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:48.640 is not. I can't see how this straight white multi millionaire, 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:56.080 this kind of shimmering vision of masculinity entitlement a miracle 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.680 and is a legendary terrible hair and. 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:02.080 Queer right on. 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:10.039 Happily now, panel, this is not an interrogation. It's not 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.159 your job to work against Jesse and Holly, but it 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:15.760 is your job to uphold them to the standards you 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.919 see fit. It's also important to note, for the purposes 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:22.920 of this study, I'm not investigating if Jesse and Holly 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.440 can convince you all to love Bruce Bringsteen. I'm investigating 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:29.080 whether you can recognize that there is enough evidence from 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:33.320 the research that they've done that the Boss has enough weight, bun, gravitas, 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.760 and gumption to stand as a queer icon. At the 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.360 end of this conversation, I'll be asking you all if 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.200 you can accept this research and therefore Bruce with the 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.320 same queer icon credentials bestowed upon the likes of Whitney, 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.960 Madonna and countless others in our community. You may say 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.200 yes or no and share suggested revisions to their thesis 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:58.960 of any Are we all sitting comfortably, then let's begin. 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.400 First up, we're shining a spotlight on the reasons behind 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.240 the study, What were its aims and why the Jesse 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:10.800 and Holly and barrack on this mission. 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.320 Jesse, Yes so, because the best belongs to us. 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.520 Is a seven part investigation where me and Holly try 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.600 and prove with real science that Bruce Springsteen is a 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:24.040 queer icon and I guess like the reason that we 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.040 did it is because we met. We both queer people 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:30.600 who loved Bruce Bingstein, and that's how we met and bunded, 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:32.440 and then we kind of worked out there were more 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.960 of us. So this is our love letter to other 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:36.559 queer Bruce fans out there. 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.720 I think even though at one time both me and 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:41.840 Jesse thought we were the only queers in the world 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.880 that loved Bruce Springsteen or the found meaning in his work, 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.400 it turns out there are so many of us out there. 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.640 And through Jesse doing their Butcher Springsteen drag and through 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.520 me making scenes that felt like it was a way 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.400 to open up conversations and meet other queer people that 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:00.360 also had this obsession with Bruce. And I think QUI 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:04.040 Springsteen fans have been overlooked long enough. There is actually 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:06.360 so many queer Bruce Sprigsteen fans that we met that 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.280 we couldn't fit them into all six episodes. So shout 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.760 out to Tennessee Jones and Natalie Adler for their amazing 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:16.280 writing on Bruce. And actually I have a small dossier 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.480 to present the panel. I'm going to play a recording 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.360 and these are two fans. This is Claire and Lee. 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:25.640 So my name is Clybidels. 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.760 I'm a writer and a. 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:30.720 Team maker and I live in Glasgow. 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:32.960 I'm a trans guy in my thirties who has been 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.719 a fan of Pretty since my late teens. I identified 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:39.040 as a CIS straight ish woman throughout my twenties, and 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.719 throughout those years he provided a very passionate channel to 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.760 my inner queer and was quite literally the only artist 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.960 I listened to. There wasn't the same trans mass representation 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.640 back then as I see now, So even though he 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.640 was cis and straight, that's not how I considered. 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:56.160 Him, although I'd heard a lot of his more famous 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.160 songs just in the ethero when I was a child. 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.760 I think the first album that I dived into was 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:05.319 A Darkness on the Edge of Town and it was 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:08.920 kind of like a real love at first listen kind 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:12.400 of thing. Queerness to me is so much about kind 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:16.960 of existing in this in between space and in this 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:21.360 like unnamed unknoble space that could go somewhere you don't 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.120 know where it's going to go, and it's about the 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.600 getting there, and it's about the figuring out. Like I 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:33.400 find queerness itself to be a refusal of stability. 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.200 Of and of knowing. It's like a state of unknowing, 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:38.920 and I find. 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:40.079 That so much in Bruce's work. 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:42.760 He sparked some deep feelings of me that I know 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.760 is entirely linked to my queer identity. His seventies twin era, 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:51.040 his hyper masculinity in the eighties, his gentle Cowboys, Sauce Wager, 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.120 as he got older, darkness on the edge of town, backstreets, 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.040 out in the street, these songs were playing my headphines 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.959 as I walked along, and I fantasized about having a life, 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.920 a physical image, and a type of love that didn't 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.760 feel accessible to me at all, and Bruce was right 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:06.280 there with me. 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.760 A queer icon to me is someone who articulates something 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:15.080 that we can't articulate for ourselves. And like Rosalita, especially 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.600 the division that's on the Live nineteen seventy five to 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:24.080 nineteen eighty five album, it's this like super long, drawn 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.959 out like it feels like it's leading up to a 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.719 kind of climax so many times but doesn't quite get there. 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.640 But when it gets there, it's just like so cathartic, 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.120 and it's all about like asking a girl out. 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:41.520 I don't listen to him as much anymore that he 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.200 still has a special place in my heart. I'm an 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.280 outgay trans man, so I guess he provided a comfort 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:49.400 that I don't need in quite the same way anymore, 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:51.880 But it'll always be a queer icon to me. 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.680 I'll now open the floor for questions from the panel 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:00.600 on the aims of the study. Zakiah, what are your 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:01.400 questions on this? 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:08.200 Okay, I'm wondering, do y'all have a secret heterosexual agenda 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.640 trying to flood a queer culture with street people? 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:16.600 I mean, there's already enough straight people flooding queer culture 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:21.560 as icons. I don't feel that's that's our agenda necessarily, 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.320 but we are opening up what that could mean and 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:27.880 looking at different types of queer icons. 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.160 Why not why not have a plan as Yeah? 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.720 No, I think that's like such an important question and 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.560 something that we've really grappled with across the series. And 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:40.599 I guess, like, if we're talking about the aims of 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.000 the study, I guess the reason we started it is 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.240 because there are more and more out queer icons who 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.160 are queer. But there is something about Bruce Springsteen that 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:51.600 drew me and Holly in, even though he's like a 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:55.040 cis white, straight, rich man, and so we were like, 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:56.560 we want to get to the bottom of like why 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.400 we're projecting so much onto a man like that, And 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:01.560 it is a promise. 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:02.800 It's not just us. 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:04.800 It's definitely not just us. 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:09.000 Thank you all. Through your thoughts, Hugh, you seem like 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.839 a guy who cares about purpose. One are the burning 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:13.600 questions on your lips? I appre hearing that. 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:15.720 Well, you don't need to convince me of what Bruce 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.000 sprint to the table as an artist here, Like his 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.800 music and his lyrics a specially brought me the same 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.240 sort of joy and solace and also like a sort 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.360 of richer deeper understanding of my own emotional life over 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.520 the years. But I'm just wondering whether, in tryers to 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:30.959 find him as a queer icon, we're kind of actually 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.600 centering ourselves here, Like have you have you considered that 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.080 maybe what's at stake isn't about how he helps us 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.720 understand our queerness, but also oro maybe more how he 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.160 helps us understand ourselves in the context of like other 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:44.520 people's heterosexuality. 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:46.560 Oh say more on that please. 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:49.559 When I was in my late teens and signed to 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.959 already get into Bruce it was through all these straight 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:57.000 CIS white boys my age who I met in the 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.280 hardcore punk scene, and I come from this like very 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.960 sort of sort of matcho sporty or you know, football 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:09.560 rugby type background, and then suddenly I was surround by 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:11.440 all these boys who are like really sensitive and the 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.200 way that they access their sensitivities and like thinking about 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.880 their emotional in their life was through Bruce and that's 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:18.319 how I bodied with them. And I was like, well, 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:20.640 you feel this way about him. I feel this way 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:22.880 about him. He speaks to both of us, and actually 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.480 it was really useful for me to think, oh, maybe 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.800 actually this image of sort of heterosexuality that I've grown 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.880 up with is actually more complicated, and there's other heterosexual 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:36.240 boys who are also as fucked up by this sort 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:37.080 of system as I am. 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.200 That's come up loads in the series as well, Like 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:40.920 that's I think that's true for me and Holly is 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:42.320 like a lot of the people we've bonded with have 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.840 also been people who aren't queer but. 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:50.040 Have like found something to either felt that they needed 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:54.800 to aspire to Bruce's version of heterosexuality or masculinity, and 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.200 in some ways, depending on who we spoke to. Some 0:13:57.240 --> 0:13:59.760 ways that was helpful for people, and in some ways 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.640 that was almost like a punishment, like, oh, I can't 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:06.160 live up to that, so I have failed gender somehow, 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.240 I've failed being myself somehow. So it throws up all 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:11.600 these really big questions. And definitely the thing we found 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:15.360 in this scientific study is that not one single person 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.679 feels the same way about Bruce. We're all getting something 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.800 slightly different from him. It's not the same version of 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:23.360 Bruce that we all have in our heads. 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:27.040 And also, like, it's funny that you said, like, are 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.480 we at risk of like centering ourselves in this which 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.400 I would say one hundred percent, yes we are, But 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:34.680 like I think maybe that's like something. 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:35.240 That's quite beautiful. 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.200 Is like a lot of what we have been thinking 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:42.680 about is all of the different creative ways that people 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:45.960 find themselves through projecting what they need to on other 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.040 people with the resources that they have. 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.560 Thank you all. Let's move on and discuss the methodology 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:59.040 of this investigation. Jesse, can you please briefly summarize the 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.440 four criteria you said out at the beginning. 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:05.080 Yes, so we looked at a bunch of what we 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.120 were calling at the time queer icons. Maybe they're just 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.560 gay icons, which is like you know, Madonnatina Turner, Whitney Share, 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.200 Brittany people like that. We called them our control group 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.760 because we're scientists, and we looked at what links them 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:18.280 all together so we could try and make a kind 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.040 of checklist, and we came up with these four points 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.600 that Bruce would have to fulfill to be a queer icon. 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:24.960 The first one is that queer icons have to be 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.240 camp and that is an aesthetic thing, but it's also 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.840 a vibe, like a truth telling Queer icons to we 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:32.880 have to be able to root for them as an underdog, 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:34.400 and what we mean by that is we have to 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:37.200 be able to recognize a struggle in them that they 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.600 might have got through or succeeded past, so we can 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.520 look at them and be like, oh, they've been through 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.000 stuff like I've been through, and they're on the other 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:45.440 side of it. 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:45.760 Now. 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.160 If they're a musician, they have to have good music, 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.760 and that we define that by lots of queer people 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:56.320 get really good at association as closeted queer teenagers, and 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:58.360 so it has to be music that helps to drag 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.600 you out of years of dissociation. And then we sub 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.720 genred that by saying you have to be able to cry, dance, 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.560 and fuck to Bruce Springsteen's music. And then the last 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.320 one is, obviously, do they have it to other queer 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:11.880 people who don't already think they're an icon? 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.640 Could they be convinced? And that's why we're here today. 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:20.080 Thanks Jessie. So does the panel agree with these criterias 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.880 indicative of what a queer icon is? Let's start with Joelle. 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:26.520 Do you think you can reduce a queer icon to 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:27.960 a list of four check boxes? 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.720 I mean, to be honest and it certainly no, absolutely not, 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:37.560 but having it explained it actually makes a lot of sense. Really, 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.760 so I am quite I'm persuaded, Yes you can, I 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.920 think so. We camp is obviously funds of mental to it, 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:49.160 the idea of the underdog as well. I mean, you say, 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:52.240 good music. I get you. Obviously he's got to be 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.720 good or he wouldn't be an extremely parous musician. But 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:58.160 just makes my skin all off my body, and I believed, 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.800 but you know, if it's I guess good music is 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.119 what unites people and brings people together. And there are 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.719 millions of bands out there, so yes, And do they 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:15.080 have eight I'm not sure it's they got it talking. 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.480 It sounds religious, it is this sort of is that 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:19.840 kind of quality. 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.320 To Oh, that's such an interesting question. 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:24.720 I mean, yeah, icon comes from that, doesn't it That 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:28.560 whole idea of having icons that have deeper spiritual meaning? 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:33.800 Yeah, Zakiya. Can you name someone for us that you 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.240 see as a queer icon and do they fill these criteria? 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.840 Yeah, I'm I'm thinking of two names. One is kind 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:45.040 of like a basic cliche, but it's just the truth. 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:50.080 Britney Spears. I just fucking love her, and I would 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:55.720 say shell those criteria. She is so canapy, from her 0:17:55.880 --> 0:18:01.399 looks to just her vibe. I love that she is 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:08.720 an unapologetically chaotic high femme and her songs are fucking bangers. 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:11.200 It literally makes me feel transcended when I'm on the 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.840 dance floor. Maybe that's the Poppers, I don't know. Also, 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.600 I've cried to her songs and I think I think 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.960 I fucked her song at least once. If you seek 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:25.480 amy my favorite bisexual anthem and also underdog like Hello. 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.560 She's been through so much, so I would say Brittany 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:32.960 is kind of my go to queer icon, and the 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.600 other one I was gonna say SpongeBob is also another 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:40.320 one of my dear icons, like the old show with 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:45.919 Spungebob is camp He is so campy, the absurdism of 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:49.639 him in the show. He is always fucking with gender, 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:55.359 he's gay for Patrick, and also he has also had 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.520 some banyers. Literally, I remember in third grade there was 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:02.320 an episode where they played in their version of the 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.600 super Bowl. They had a song and I literally shed 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.560 a single tear as like a nine year old because 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.080 it touched my car. So yeah, Mike queer icons ready 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:12.760 is one? 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:14.360 Rub I love that. 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.520 I want to get Bruce up there next to those 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:17.280 two people. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:20.320 The triat. 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:26.199 No Jesse and Holly. Can you convince the panel that 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:30.080 Springsteen is still the points in your checklist? Please? Can 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.520 you take us through your findings? Let's start with chat. 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.920 Okay, So camp was the first item on our checklist, 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:42.639 and we decided that camp has really an ever changing meaning. 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.400 So we've gone a little bit further than Susan Suntag's 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:48.840 notes on Camp and we've joined that up with more 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.120 current theories of Butch Camp and Dyke Camp. So, using 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.439 that as our starting point, we said that Bruce's looks 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.840 were super camp. Whether it's his seventies twig clok or 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.520 it's all American look or even some of his more 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.639 contemporary looks, we said that they were camp. We also 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.800 said that there's an element of extravagance and generosity and 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:12.439 world building that's contained within Bruce's songs, his live shows, 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.879 and his performative aspect. We said they're extreme in a 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:16.440 camp way. 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:21.080 We had a lesbian fashion historian analyzed some of Bruce's 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:22.840 looks and one of the things that she said was 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:27.160 it's very gender and I feel like that's a good documentary. 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:30.520 Joelle, what are your thoughts on this? 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.240 When you first start, you know that camp has a 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:38.919 changing meaning. Where I went up was really darling. I 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.560 don't think so. When you started to speak, I was thinking, 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:44.280 because we never really do look at camp from a 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:48.480 diet or but perspective, and I fact, yes, I think 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.520 you're right. You know you're writing the rules as it were, 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:55.280 so you're defining what camp is. Yeah, I agree with you. 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.919 I agree, And I don't know the lyrics though, and 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:03.199 the look itself just really puts me off. So it 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:08.520 fascinates me, like what draws you to that hypromasculinity or that, 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:10.600 like you said, all American, what draws you to? 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:13.760 Originally we had one of our criteria was going to 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:16.560 be could you dress up as an icon at Halloween 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:20.000 party and somebody else would recognize what that was? But 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:21.639 that was kind of too shallow for what we were 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:23.520 going for because you could dress up as anybody. It 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:25.240 wasn't about something you could dress up as. It was 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:29.080 about is there extravagance mixed with authenticity as part of that? 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.040 And we thought Bruce really ticked that point. 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:36.679 Also, like there are some lesser known Bruce Springsteen looks 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:40.560 that we find to be very camp because there's obviously 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:42.720 in the eighties, you know, he was like all muscles 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.000 or bandanas or type blue jeans, which for us also 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:47.600 we do kind of look at and be like, oh, 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.480 that's you know, looks like a lot of butch Kings. 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:51.160 That we've seen in the club. 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:54.439 But there's also you know, there's like in the seventies 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:58.920 he was all leather and as in there's a look 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.080 of his from like more recently that Holly calls his 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.960 stone bush blues look just beautiful. 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:08.520 The comparison of Katie Lang was really striking. I looked 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:11.080 up the two album covers when you mentioned on the 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:13.760 podcast and the spitting image of each other. 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:22.159 Yeah, moving on to checklists, point to underdog status, Jesse Go. 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:25.840 One of the things that we've kind of related to 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:28.200 in Bruce is that he has this quite critical relationship 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:32.879 with the expectations and presumptions based around masculinity, which we 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:36.360 see ourselves reflected in because it feels not too far 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:38.719 away from the very queer idea of like gender as 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:42.879 a performance. And he speaks very beautifully about masculinity in 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:44.479 his book and in a lot of his songs. 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:47.000 So that's something that we both felt. 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:49.080 You know, there are struggles in there that are relatable 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:50.879 to struggles of some queer people. 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:52.480 There's also just. 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:55.800 Like so many of his songs are about people not 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:59.119 understanding you, being stuck in a context, like wishing that 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:01.359 you could be you know, there's a very famous line, 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:03.560 there's something happening somewhere, baby. I just know that there 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:08.720 is this like yearning, and all of those are emotions 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:10.840 that queer people I think can kind of get on 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:14.720 board with. I guess we started thinking about whether or 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:18.159 not the Bruce Springsteen and of lyrics and stories as 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:22.159 different to the Bruce Springsteen who like walks around breathing. 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:23.360 Air in New Jersey. 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:30.040 He is obviously a multi millionaire, and so it feels 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:32.760 it didn't sit totally right with us to call an 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:37.480 extremely rich man an underdog. And we aren't totally sure 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:41.000 where he stands on some aspects of politics that are 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:43.280 really important to me and Holly, and we've both had 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:47.320 experiences of being around other kind of straight male Bruce 0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:53.520 fans who've made us feel unsafe for like unlike them. 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:55.520 So that was we got a bit unsure at that point. 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.160 Yeah, And I also want to just really really stress 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:03.080 that doubt and anxiety are absolutely key to this methodology. 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.040 We spent a lot of time asking ourselves if we 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:08.400 were the right people to be doing this, if there 0:24:08.400 --> 0:24:10.320 was any point in what we were actually doing, if 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:13.520 anybody would get something from this. So just to say, 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:17.040 as part of this academic peer review, we believe if 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:20.320 you're replicating these results for yourself or replicating this investigation, 0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:24.720 you need both a checklist and a depression bench. So 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:26.879 part of our investigation, I took Jesse to what I 0:24:26.920 --> 0:24:30.280 call my depression bench, where we just poured over all 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:33.360 of the things we're feeling and doubts and anxiety about this, 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:35.760 So that would be the apparatus you would need for 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:38.439 this investigation if you're repeating this in future. 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:42.440 And then like another point that potentially we thought maybe 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:45.000 we'd add on if we did this study again is 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:48.120 like we ended up having this day where we were 0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:49.880 like fucking hell, like do. 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:51.320 We even like Bruce Springsteen? 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:56.680 You know, and like maybe it's like a specifically career 0:24:56.720 --> 0:24:59.520 experience that the way that we show love sometimes is 0:24:59.520 --> 0:25:03.560 by like totally tearing apart the people in things that 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:05.760 we love in like really over renalizing them and like 0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:09.520 projecting our own personalities onto people that didn't necessarily ask 0:25:09.600 --> 0:25:12.480 for that. So that was where we ended really on 0:25:12.600 --> 0:25:14.960 them on Underdog status is a check point. 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:16.800 Hugh, what are your thoughts on this? 0:25:17.320 --> 0:25:19.600 Well, it's funny because the episode Yeah, where you focus 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:22.680 on Bruce as an underdog was for me it seemed 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:24.200 like you it was one that you were most sort 0:25:24.200 --> 0:25:26.960 of anxious and critical of both him and also like 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:29.680 your own status in his investigations. But to me, it 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:31.119 seemed like it was the place where it was the 0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:36.959 most potential request because searching for this like perfect Bruce 0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:39.840 and his perfect fans is like, as a perfect sort 0:25:39.840 --> 0:25:42.080 of political subject is obviously going to fail. But what 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:45.960 is clearly there is that in his writings and his 0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:49.480 music about being an underdog, which is what everyone there 0:25:49.520 --> 0:25:52.600 has in common, Like, that's the commonality between like all 0:25:52.640 --> 0:25:56.160 his fans. So although he's not the perfect person, when 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:58.760 he writes about those things, that's what we all sort 0:25:58.800 --> 0:26:02.080 of identify with. You that the way he approaches his 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:05.080 hometown and the sort of feeling of both like sadness 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:08.440 and longing in his hometown or of wanting to escape 0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:11.399 or Yeah, his approach to masculinity is something that can 0:26:11.440 --> 0:26:14.880 be perhaps like a caring thing to do that. All 0:26:14.880 --> 0:26:18.480 the other fans have some similar relationship to his music 0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:21.120 and around those things, even if they don't fuably share 0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:23.920 our political outwork. And it seems to me that that's 0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:27.640 where all music, and especially his music is so powerful 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:30.760 that despite the differences, the fact that we react in 0:26:30.800 --> 0:26:33.119 the same way to those lyrics means there's a starting 0:26:33.160 --> 0:26:36.920 point for building alliances beyond our sort of sexuality and 0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:38.440 gender differences. 0:26:39.040 --> 0:26:42.120 Yeah, totally. Yeah, Yeah, it was hard, wasn't it? Because 0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:44.080 I think that is really beautiful. And then also we 0:26:44.080 --> 0:26:47.280 were like, is that also a bit diluting in that 0:26:47.320 --> 0:26:49.600 if anyone can relate to Prouce Springsteen's lyrics, does that 0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:52.360 make him a queer iconogs that make him a good songwriter? 0:26:53.400 --> 0:26:55.000 That's why I think he's a queer Eyeicut. 0:26:57.119 --> 0:27:00.199 But I guess like one of our conclusions from that 0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:04.800 was like, there is enough in his writing. 0:27:05.920 --> 0:27:07.480 That allows us to create the. 0:27:07.600 --> 0:27:10.400 Icon of our dreams in our little brains, and that 0:27:10.400 --> 0:27:12.760 that is maybe the same thing that people do with 0:27:12.960 --> 0:27:14.200 other celebrities too. 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:18.400 Yeah, that this we view this as just one checklist 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:20.760 point as well, So viewing this in the context of 0:27:20.840 --> 0:27:23.760 other things helped us kind of start through those very 0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:27.160 complicated emotions on that very sad depression bench. 0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:33.960 Thanks for the additional adults, Everyone talk to you about 0:27:33.960 --> 0:27:36.359 your third checklist point good music. 0:27:37.040 --> 0:27:39.439 Okay, so we've got a lot to say about music. 0:27:39.520 --> 0:27:43.040 We wanted to see as an icon. Can his music 0:27:43.119 --> 0:27:46.120 drag queers back from years of association? And we looked 0:27:46.160 --> 0:27:49.800 at whether you could cry, dance, or fuck to his music. 0:27:50.320 --> 0:27:52.880 So in terms of crying, I can cry right now 0:27:53.000 --> 0:27:57.720 is if the panel would like me to cry enough, 0:27:58.320 --> 0:27:59.880 But I can. I just want to say I can. 0:28:00.520 --> 0:28:02.720 And also the most important thing. Straight men also cry 0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:04.720 to to his music as well. We have a token 0:28:04.760 --> 0:28:07.879 straight man on the show who talked about feelings of 0:28:07.920 --> 0:28:10.560 crying at his shows. We've seen other men crying at 0:28:10.560 --> 0:28:12.959 his shows. I think Bruce gives us a gift of 0:28:13.000 --> 0:28:15.119 being able to release your emotions through his music and 0:28:15.160 --> 0:28:17.639 through his performance. So then we moved on to dance, 0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:21.840 and we spoke to two legendary queer icons themselves, a 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:25.000 DJ Legends Unskinny Pop, who talked about they have a 0:28:25.040 --> 0:28:28.399 set of Bruce Springsteen songs which absolutely unite a queer 0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:31.880 dance floor and this feeling of euphoria that queers have 0:28:32.000 --> 0:28:34.879 when hearing Bruce Springsteen in queer clubs and queer spaces. 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:38.479 And then we looked at the checkpoint of fucking, and 0:28:38.520 --> 0:28:41.960 we asked a very cool professional musician who said they'd 0:28:42.000 --> 0:28:44.800 fucked to at least two Bruce Springsteen songs. And we 0:28:44.880 --> 0:28:47.680 also had a listener right in Crystal who named another 0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:50.520 good Bruce Springsteen fucking song, which is Candy's Room, which 0:28:50.520 --> 0:28:52.720 we didn't get to talk about in that particular episode. 0:28:52.920 --> 0:28:56.280 So I think those were our three areas, and I 0:28:56.320 --> 0:28:58.840 think that wasn't of our funnest checkpoints. 0:28:59.760 --> 0:29:03.360 Agree, Zakia, what do you think about Bruce's music? 0:29:04.000 --> 0:29:08.440 I'm sure I've heard Bruce Springsteen's song, but I don't know, 0:29:09.000 --> 0:29:11.640 but like I don't know well enough to be like, oh, 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:13.800 that's Bruce Springsteen, or maybe I like heard it in 0:29:13.840 --> 0:29:17.680 the background at like CBS. I don't even mean to 0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:20.440 be shady, that's for it's like, you know, convenience store 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:25.520 of music. So my question is as a Bruce Nube 0:29:25.920 --> 0:29:28.560 who doesn't know his discography, like, if you were to 0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:32.600 play a song right now, what song would give me 0:29:32.800 --> 0:29:37.680 that feeling that would make me go, oh, now I 0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:38.200 get it. 0:29:38.760 --> 0:29:40.640 It's a really tough question because he's got such a 0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:42.200 big body of music. And the one thing I'll say 0:29:42.240 --> 0:29:44.240 before we answer it is that most of the people 0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:46.960 we speak to have kind of said that they don't 0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:50.040 usually listen to the genre of Bruce Springsteen's music. It's 0:29:50.080 --> 0:29:53.000 like Americana or whatever you want of Carey's not really 0:29:53.000 --> 0:29:55.000 a genre that a lot of us subjects in the 0:29:55.040 --> 0:30:00.360 investigation would listen to voluntarily usually, but there's some about 0:30:00.360 --> 0:30:03.600 the lyrics that pulls them in. Yeah for me, And 0:30:03.640 --> 0:30:05.200 this is a song I always recommend to people who 0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:07.800 don't know Bruce at all is just and it's an 0:30:07.840 --> 0:30:10.560 obvious banger, but it's dancing in the dark because it 0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:14.160 was my queer awakening when I was thirteen. It sounds 0:30:14.200 --> 0:30:16.200 really upbeat, but when you listen to the lyrics, it's 0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:19.320 a song about deep, deep depression. And there's a lyric 0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:22.120 in there which is I want to change my clothes, 0:30:22.160 --> 0:30:24.600 my hair, my face. And the way in which he 0:30:24.720 --> 0:30:29.000 like screens sings that in the song, it's like this frustration. 0:30:29.160 --> 0:30:31.840 It feels really tangible, like he's looking at his reflection 0:30:32.480 --> 0:30:37.240 and what he's looking at doesn't reflect what he's feeling inside. 0:30:37.720 --> 0:30:39.320 And I think a lot of people we've spoken to 0:30:39.440 --> 0:30:42.120 have cited that lyric has been something that has been 0:30:42.160 --> 0:30:44.720 a mantra for them at some point. 0:30:44.480 --> 0:30:47.920 And I mean, I agree with everything Holly said. I 0:30:47.920 --> 0:30:49.960 will add one other song that we didn't get to 0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:52.080 talk about in the poocast, which is it's a. 0:30:52.040 --> 0:30:53.440 Song called I'm Going Down. 0:30:53.960 --> 0:30:56.840 Yes, he does things I'm going down a million times, 0:30:57.040 --> 0:31:01.239 which obviously, if you want to, you can interpret that. 0:31:01.320 --> 0:31:06.000 Yeah, point taken, and I will Actually I just realized 0:31:06.720 --> 0:31:10.000 one of my favorite songs I love the Chromatics cover of. 0:31:10.400 --> 0:31:12.320 What's the one I'm on fire. 0:31:12.600 --> 0:31:16.440 I'm on fire. I didn't realize that that was a 0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:20.160 Bruce song. So now I'm already like feeling my attachment 0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:24.480 to Bruce like grow Emily. Okay, very nice. 0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:30.239 And of course, your last checkpoint is being tested as 0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:32.280 we speak, isn't that right? Jesse? 0:31:32.920 --> 0:31:33.320 Correct? 0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:36.680 Our last checkpoint is can we convince a panel of 0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:38.720 queer people of his queer reckons say this? 0:31:39.200 --> 0:31:41.040 Thank you for being here? Only time will. 0:31:40.880 --> 0:31:46.880 Tell, Yes, only time will tell. I am so impressed 0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:49.320 by the vigor I see in the Panels analysis so far, 0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:53.240 you simply must put your brains on ice. After the break, 0:31:53.280 --> 0:31:57.640 we're interrogating Jesse and Holly's moral compasses. We're talking ethics. Baby, 0:31:58.440 --> 0:31:59.080 that's next. 0:32:07.760 --> 0:32:10.120 Hey, this is Jesse and Holly letting you know about 0:32:10.120 --> 0:32:11.840 another show you might want to listen to. 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:15.960 Did you know that Radiotopia has a reality dating podcast. 0:32:16.440 --> 0:32:18.600 It's called hang Up, and it's kind of like a 0:32:18.680 --> 0:32:21.720 queer cross between the Bachelor and Lovers Blind. 0:32:21.800 --> 0:32:23.520 And seriously, it's a blast. 0:32:24.040 --> 0:32:26.440 I'm a long term listener. I've been there from day one. 0:32:27.040 --> 0:32:29.440 It has all of the drama and chaos of a 0:32:29.520 --> 0:32:32.400 queer reality show without any of the bullshit of unethical 0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:33.280 reality tropes. 0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:37.320 Hang Ups tagline is no Rings Attached. It's a refreshing 0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:40.960 focus on dating and connection rather than marriage. Here's a 0:32:40.960 --> 0:32:42.640 little clip about their current season. 0:32:43.360 --> 0:32:46.720 Our star TEAMO is forty one years old and recently divorced. 0:32:46.920 --> 0:32:49.520 I haven't been on a single date in eighteen months, but. 0:32:49.720 --> 0:32:53.840 Now they're looking for someone special and like really hot. 0:32:53.720 --> 0:32:55.800 Sex, really hard public sex. 0:32:56.200 --> 0:32:59.440 So we set them up with six callers to date 0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:01.640 exclusively over the phone. 0:33:02.080 --> 0:33:06.920 I feel like I could talk to you for hours. 0:33:05.920 --> 0:33:06.479 On hang Up. 0:33:06.560 --> 0:33:08.640 You don't just get to eavesdrop on dates. There's also 0:33:08.680 --> 0:33:12.320 a series of eliminations, and in the end there's a twist. Well, 0:33:12.320 --> 0:33:14.720 the last caller standing choose the star and go on 0:33:14.760 --> 0:33:17.800 an all expenses paid vacation together, or choose a cash 0:33:17.840 --> 0:33:18.560 prize instead. 0:33:19.080 --> 0:33:20.800 Guys, it's high drama. 0:33:20.920 --> 0:33:24.040 Also, it's hosted by friend of the pod, Zakia Gibbons. 0:33:24.280 --> 0:33:26.440 You might even hear a little something from her in 0:33:26.480 --> 0:33:27.600 an upcoming episode. 0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:30.720 The Nie season has just finished, so it's perfect time 0:33:30.720 --> 0:33:33.160 for binging. Ten out of ten would recommend to a 0:33:33.200 --> 0:33:36.560 friend or love or give in queer community, Probably Boyce. 0:33:36.920 --> 0:33:39.800 Subscribe to Hang Up Today on your favorite podcast. 0:33:39.400 --> 0:33:53.160 Platform, and we're back. This is because the boss belongs 0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:59.400 to us. I'm Jane's the only actual queer in stem 0:33:59.480 --> 0:34:02.800 to be feature. You're in a seven episode scientific investigation. 0:34:04.560 --> 0:34:07.760 So far, the panel has tested the studies, aims, purpose, 0:34:07.800 --> 0:34:17.600 and criteria. Now we're talking epics, baby, Hugh, you can 0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:20.640 take the lead on this one. What burning ethical questions 0:34:20.719 --> 0:34:22.319 do you have for our researchers. 0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:25.240 I'm going to say what everyone's thinking. Are you really 0:34:25.320 --> 0:34:28.400 independent minds when it comes to talking about Bruce Springsteen? 0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:30.960 Are you really approaching this willing to find out at 0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:32.960 the end that actually it's not a quare eye? 0:34:33.320 --> 0:34:36.840 No? 0:34:36.840 --> 0:34:39.320 No, I didn't go into this with open hearts and minds. 0:34:40.600 --> 0:34:43.439 I went into this fully self centered, trying to prove 0:34:43.440 --> 0:34:46.600 a point, but learning about science along the way. 0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:48.600 Well. 0:34:48.640 --> 0:34:51.440 Also, Holly, in episode four, you says like really clearly 0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:53.640 that you that you didn't want to believe that the 0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:56.120 album Working on a Dream actually exists. You just pretend 0:34:56.160 --> 0:34:59.120 it doesn't exist, which is obviously a good example of that. 0:34:59.160 --> 0:35:00.880 But why why put through that album? 0:35:01.600 --> 0:35:05.200 Oh wow, this is some gotcha journalism, isn't it Working 0:35:05.200 --> 0:35:08.000 on a Dream? In my opinion, Working Our Dream is 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:10.120 one of Bruce Bringsty's worst albums. It came out, I 0:35:10.120 --> 0:35:12.040 think it's two thousand and eight or two thousand and nine, 0:35:12.400 --> 0:35:17.000 just as Obama was being elected. It's very liberal, wishy, washy, 0:35:17.320 --> 0:35:21.840 vague songs about absolutely nothing. At a time when a 0:35:21.880 --> 0:35:25.600 political album was needed, he released a very apolitical album 0:35:25.719 --> 0:35:29.240 and the songs do not bang. They're just really boring. 0:35:31.200 --> 0:35:33.880 I don't think I went into this really willing to 0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:35.719 say that Bruce is not a queer icon, but I 0:35:35.719 --> 0:35:37.120 will say that maybe one of the things that we've 0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:39.080 learned along the way is like I think that our 0:35:39.160 --> 0:35:41.600 definition of queer icon is kind of like molded and 0:35:41.680 --> 0:35:45.240 changed across the show potentially so it still fits with Bruce. 0:35:48.239 --> 0:35:51.000 But yeah, I think like ultimately we were like it 0:35:51.120 --> 0:35:53.720 is maybe good to cherry pick or ignore things because 0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:55.440 we're creating our own version of Bruce. 0:35:55.600 --> 0:35:58.040 And I think also that comes from you know, amazine makers. 0:35:58.040 --> 0:35:59.359 So a lot of the scenes that I make our 0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:01.719 cut and pass collage of taken the best bits of 0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:04.440 things that I like and then making something out of that. 0:36:04.520 --> 0:36:08.359 And I've definitely taken that approach to this scientific investigation. 0:36:08.920 --> 0:36:13.560 Thank you. We're almost ready to sort of panelists to 0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:16.799 deliver their verdicts. Before that, we have some listener questions. 0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:22.000 First off, we have Kyle Hi's Kyle here. I'm loving 0:36:22.040 --> 0:36:22.560 the show. 0:36:23.280 --> 0:36:26.359 Wouldn't really class myself as a Bruce fan, but I've 0:36:26.360 --> 0:36:29.040 been really enjoying all of the interviews and research that 0:36:29.080 --> 0:36:31.719 you've done. I have a question, do you think that 0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:35.759 younger generations do this as much? Because you mentioned that 0:36:35.920 --> 0:36:38.520 part of the reason why Quiz find heroes and straight 0:36:38.560 --> 0:36:41.720 celebrities is left over from a time and we didn't 0:36:41.800 --> 0:36:45.680 have many out celebrities. So I wonder now that younger 0:36:45.719 --> 0:36:50.520 generations have more kind of queer and trans heroes and 0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:54.520 representations and a cup to do you think they'll be 0:36:54.560 --> 0:36:58.320 putting as much effort into queering straight celebrities. 0:37:01.000 --> 0:37:02.600 Yeah, so this is something that we were kind of 0:37:02.600 --> 0:37:04.920 wondering about in the show. It is like because of 0:37:05.520 --> 0:37:08.399 parts of queer history. So in the UK Section twenty eight, 0:37:09.280 --> 0:37:12.239 which was a law that prevented the quote promotion of 0:37:12.280 --> 0:37:15.759 homosexuality but local authority. So it meant that people didn't 0:37:15.760 --> 0:37:19.120 receive sex education like queer sex education in schools, along 0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:19.960 with a lot of other things. 0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:20.520 You know, it was real. 0:37:20.960 --> 0:37:23.000 It was a shameful thing to be to be out 0:37:23.040 --> 0:37:26.600 as a queer person. And then other big things in 0:37:26.680 --> 0:37:30.680 queer history, like the AIDS crisis, meant that for reasons 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:33.680 of people literally not being around because they died or 0:37:33.920 --> 0:37:37.440 not being able to come out, there was a real 0:37:37.520 --> 0:37:41.440 kind of lack of queer elders or community leaders in 0:37:41.480 --> 0:37:43.879 the public eye. And so we were wondering whether there 0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:46.800 is a kind of like legacy of queer people having 0:37:46.840 --> 0:37:50.080 to do this work of like projecting onto straight people 0:37:50.560 --> 0:37:51.520 or like finding do you know. 0:37:51.480 --> 0:37:51.759 What I mean? 0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:53.600 I think as part of like queer culture is to 0:37:53.920 --> 0:37:57.640 look for these people and make them into icons. But 0:37:57.840 --> 0:38:00.480 I think the difference generationally might be less to do 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:03.600 with our history and more specifically might be to do 0:38:03.719 --> 0:38:06.439 with the way we consume media today in social media, 0:38:06.480 --> 0:38:09.040 that it's much harder to have that sort of old 0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:12.279 fashioned type of relationship with an icon. Why you can 0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:14.200 project other stuff on them in a way that I 0:38:14.239 --> 0:38:16.480 don't know in the say, in the fifties and sixties 0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:19.359 you could have done with Judy Garland, that you could 0:38:19.480 --> 0:38:22.160 there's still sort of little information that you could make 0:38:22.280 --> 0:38:25.080 up the back story, so you identified strongly with her, 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:28.120 And it's much harder for artists and musicians today to 0:38:28.160 --> 0:38:30.640 be able to maintain that distance from their fans enough 0:38:31.360 --> 0:38:33.279 that they can become a blank slate for people to 0:38:33.280 --> 0:38:36.640 project their emotions onto. And so you either have one way, 0:38:36.680 --> 0:38:39.759 which is the sworn like Lona del Rey, where you 0:38:39.800 --> 0:38:42.920 can still do that because she keeps so much hidden 0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:46.239 and it's just a performance she's doing as particular personality, 0:38:46.840 --> 0:38:48.320 or you go like the other way, which is like 0:38:48.600 --> 0:38:52.200 like Azilah Banks, who's just like constantly saying stuff, and 0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:55.400 then gay people, quiet people can sort of really hyper 0:38:55.400 --> 0:38:58.600 ironically take this person who says like the most outrageously 0:38:58.680 --> 0:39:02.279 like homophobic and transfer a bit things and be like yes, yeah, 0:39:02.320 --> 0:39:05.640 you're you're our hero and like jump on the opposite 0:39:05.640 --> 0:39:07.880 side of that. But it's hard for someone it's just 0:39:07.880 --> 0:39:09.480 like quite middle of the road as an artist to 0:39:09.560 --> 0:39:13.480 let them to become an icon these days because the 0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:16.320 sort of way we form is parasocial relations is totally 0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:19.000 changed by social media, and it's just the share quantity 0:39:19.000 --> 0:39:21.880 of access that we get to famous people's lives. 0:39:22.160 --> 0:39:25.560 You know, something I've been thinking about in this highly 0:39:25.600 --> 0:39:30.360 academic panel is it's kind of reminding me of the 0:39:30.440 --> 0:39:34.160 discourse around baby girl, you know, which I feel like 0:39:34.280 --> 0:39:37.399 is a gen Z term that you know, was birthed 0:39:37.440 --> 0:39:40.960 out of TikTok and then gen Z's on there, you know, 0:39:41.120 --> 0:39:47.520 calling street cysts celebrities baby girl. So just thinking about that, 0:39:48.400 --> 0:39:51.960 I just feel like, yes, I do think that there 0:39:52.120 --> 0:39:55.840 is a generational element where just like out of the 0:39:55.880 --> 0:39:58.239 picking for slims, so you know, you choose, you choose 0:39:58.280 --> 0:39:59.680 on You're like, Okay, I'm gonna make you gay, I'm 0:39:59.680 --> 0:40:01.680 gonna make you queer, and then you kind of come 0:40:01.760 --> 0:40:04.680 up with this whole backstory and you know, you kind 0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:08.000 of project your own desires and needs to be and 0:40:08.200 --> 0:40:11.640 wants to be seen. And now you know there's a 0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:18.120 lot more out and queer celebrities and representation, and yet 0:40:18.160 --> 0:40:24.080 you know, we're still seeing people queer people that aren't queer, 0:40:24.560 --> 0:40:26.640 you know, as seen in this rise of like you know, 0:40:26.680 --> 0:40:30.160 this baby girl discourse. I feel like that's just something 0:40:30.320 --> 0:40:32.399 us queers love to do, you know what I mean, 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:40.600 Because it's both emotionally and mentally and spiritually important to 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:46.040 see ourselves and other people. But it's also fun to 0:40:46.360 --> 0:40:50.000 feel like you're kind of just inviting someone to your party. 0:40:50.280 --> 0:40:53.080 You know, Yeah, totally I always say. 0:40:53.120 --> 0:40:55.200 There's something that we talk about in episode six, which 0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:58.400 is like, if you like zoom out from picking specific 0:40:58.560 --> 0:41:01.360 you know, specific straight people to make into queer icons. 0:41:01.640 --> 0:41:05.959 There's something about like claiming mainstream culture as our own, 0:41:06.080 --> 0:41:10.880 like putting a steak into mainstream culture that isn't necessarily 0:41:10.920 --> 0:41:14.759 made for marginalized people, including queer people, and being like yeah, 0:41:14.760 --> 0:41:17.480 like I guess you want to entertain straits, but we're 0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:19.440 here too, and like we like this too, or like 0:41:19.520 --> 0:41:21.640 we find our own meanings from this too, and I 0:41:21.640 --> 0:41:23.560 think there's something maybe like powerful about that. 0:41:24.360 --> 0:41:31.240 Thanks everyone. Next up, we have a question from Kathleen 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:35.759 h Halle and Jesse. It's Kathleen here in Yorkshire. 0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:38.479 I am living the show so far and I've heard 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:40.640 what you have to say. I just don't know if 0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:43.759 I see Booth as a queer icon. I feel like 0:41:43.840 --> 0:41:46.560 we see the checkshire. We've all got daddy issues and 0:41:46.600 --> 0:41:48.320 that's all we need discuss. 0:41:51.800 --> 0:41:53.000 Joelle, what do you think? 0:41:54.440 --> 0:41:59.759 Yeah, I mean I think possibly for me, I was 0:41:59.760 --> 0:42:02.600 trying to figure out why am I not persuaded by 0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:05.680 this because I think there is a there's a difference 0:42:05.680 --> 0:42:07.960 in my head between the iconic queer icon and a 0:42:08.040 --> 0:42:12.400 queer a hero you know, So an icon is it's product. 0:42:12.440 --> 0:42:16.120 So what's a religious product to our projections? You know, 0:42:16.239 --> 0:42:18.960 this kind of prophecy you are, you have a distance 0:42:19.080 --> 0:42:21.759 from them, so you're able to project, you know, with 0:42:21.960 --> 0:42:25.640 absolute clarity and meaning everything you're looking for. Whereas a 0:42:25.680 --> 0:42:29.319 queer as somebody's actually doing something positive for us, there's 0:42:29.360 --> 0:42:34.160 actually a politically engaged has taken on great struggles at 0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:39.200 some time. So I don't know, daddy issues we certainly 0:42:39.239 --> 0:42:39.920 will do. 0:42:41.719 --> 0:42:43.759 Yeah, I think it's a good point. I think we 0:42:43.800 --> 0:42:46.080 all do have daddy issues, and I think that should 0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:47.880 be acknowledged as part of this investigation. 0:42:48.880 --> 0:42:51.200 But I think, like I would say that that's like 0:42:51.280 --> 0:42:55.080 what what Cathleen said is potentially an argument for Bruce 0:42:55.120 --> 0:42:57.480 being a queer icon in that I'm like, yeah, like 0:42:57.880 --> 0:43:01.040 we have reasons why we need to make new daddies, 0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:06.480 and like maybe that's okay, Like maybe maybe he's someone 0:43:06.480 --> 0:43:07.879 who we can fill in those gaps for. 0:43:10.560 --> 0:43:13.319 Which is really really interesting this fiction between a gay 0:43:13.520 --> 0:43:17.240 icon and a queer ypo. I thought like queer would 0:43:17.239 --> 0:43:20.480 be more, it would queer things more, you know, So 0:43:20.600 --> 0:43:24.160 it challenges these kind of heats of normative ideologies and 0:43:24.239 --> 0:43:27.640 ideas and so me even the names or boss and 0:43:27.640 --> 0:43:31.200 exemplifies all of those things. So what what do you 0:43:31.200 --> 0:43:32.879 think the difference is between the two? 0:43:33.040 --> 0:43:35.919 What is the sort of Yeah, something we talked about 0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:40.040 a bit in the show is like who is choosing 0:43:40.200 --> 0:43:45.239 the queer icons, because like gay icons are traditionally worshiped 0:43:45.320 --> 0:43:49.480 by like cisc men potentially. 0:43:50.440 --> 0:43:51.680 And tend to be straight women. 0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:56.520 We think that there is a longer history of queering 0:43:56.800 --> 0:44:01.200 straight women than it is of queering straight men, and 0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:04.200 that might be because of women or trans masculine people 0:44:04.960 --> 0:44:09.440 or like people within that part of queer culture. They 0:44:09.560 --> 0:44:12.840 might relate, for example, to Bruce's masculinity in a different 0:44:12.840 --> 0:44:14.560 way that maybe a gay man might really relate to 0:44:14.600 --> 0:44:17.719 Bruce's masculinity. So we're wondering whether this is like a 0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:22.400 new thing that we are pioneering. 0:44:24.760 --> 0:44:30.200 The dyke for a nice Yeah. 0:44:30.680 --> 0:44:30.879 Yeah. 0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:33.279 The fans that we spoke to and the experts that 0:44:33.320 --> 0:44:35.480 we spoke to in the show kind of pointed towards 0:44:35.520 --> 0:44:41.280 there being mostly dykes trans masque fans that were finding 0:44:41.320 --> 0:44:43.799 something in Bruce. It wasn't the same thing, but it 0:44:43.880 --> 0:44:46.160 was finding something in Bruce, and we thought that is 0:44:46.200 --> 0:44:47.160 worth investigating. 0:44:47.600 --> 0:44:48.680 Yeah, it really is. 0:44:48.760 --> 0:44:50.600 So it might feel affronting to be like, WHOA A 0:44:50.719 --> 0:44:55.440 cis straight white man. He doesn't deserve another pedestal. But 0:44:55.480 --> 0:44:57.880 maybe this is like a new thing that we've discovered 0:44:58.239 --> 0:45:00.640 and it's not about like glorifying him. It's about like 0:45:00.719 --> 0:45:05.120 celebrating Dyke and like adjacent culture question mark. 0:45:07.680 --> 0:45:10.040 Lastly, we have a question from Alison. 0:45:11.640 --> 0:45:14.040 Hello, this is Alison here. 0:45:14.920 --> 0:45:19.640 So I'm wondering if trying to ask Bruce himself was 0:45:19.760 --> 0:45:23.360 ever part of your plan or do you feel like 0:45:23.719 --> 0:45:25.640 he doesn't get to weigh in on this even if 0:45:25.640 --> 0:45:26.360 you could. 0:45:26.120 --> 0:45:26.880 Talk to him. 0:45:27.200 --> 0:45:31.400 And I'm also wondering, if you did have the chance 0:45:31.440 --> 0:45:32.680 to talk to Bruce, you're. 0:45:32.560 --> 0:45:35.680 Hanging out in the same room, what would you ask him. 0:45:37.320 --> 0:45:39.880 I've said this quite a few times during the podcast 0:45:39.960 --> 0:45:42.439 that I'm actually just really not interested in the real 0:45:42.480 --> 0:45:45.319 Bruce Springsteen. I love you, Bruce, I really do, but 0:45:45.440 --> 0:45:48.120 I do think that I don't need to know his 0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:50.640 opinions or anything. I don't need to actually meet him 0:45:50.760 --> 0:45:52.719 or speak to him, because the version I've got of 0:45:52.760 --> 0:45:55.880 Bruce in my head is so much more interesting and 0:45:55.920 --> 0:45:58.960 so much more important to me than the real Bruce 0:45:58.960 --> 0:45:59.800 Springsteen ever. 0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:02.200 Could Yeah, I think I feel quite similarly. I think 0:46:02.360 --> 0:46:04.640 we went into this project and we were just like 0:46:05.200 --> 0:46:09.720 Brice doesn't care about us, Like we're just two queer 0:46:09.760 --> 0:46:12.279 people making a little podcast. There are so many pot 0:46:12.360 --> 0:46:15.000 us about him because he's such a famous musician. If 0:46:15.040 --> 0:46:18.520 he did hear the show, I guess I would feel 0:46:18.520 --> 0:46:22.759 disappointed if he used it to gain the Pink Pound, Like, 0:46:22.960 --> 0:46:25.440 I don't want him to be like, oh sick, I've 0:46:25.480 --> 0:46:28.800 got queer fans now, I'm gonna like release a line. 0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:31.040 Of T shirts that say love is Love, Love is 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:31.800 Love yet exactly. 0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:34.560 So, I think there's something nice about the fact that 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:38.879 he's like a slightly unobtainable figure in our lives in it. Yeah, 0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:41.879 it's less about pleasing him or getting him on side 0:46:41.920 --> 0:46:43.800 and more about us being like, yeah. 0:46:43.640 --> 0:46:46.719 Yeah, it's not about him, us the most important people. 0:46:46.800 --> 0:46:48.400 It's really about us, guys. That's what we're trying to 0:46:48.440 --> 0:46:49.319 communicate to you. 0:46:52.560 --> 0:46:55.919 Jesse and Holly. This is your last chance to share 0:46:56.000 --> 0:46:59.959 closing faults, feelings, or final bits of evidence with the pattern. 0:47:00.960 --> 0:47:03.440 So I have one last bit of evidence from our 0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:05.280 dossier to play now for the panel. 0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:09.840 Our executive producer Jasmine J. T. Green interviewing Alex or 0:47:09.840 --> 0:47:11.759 talk Bazar, who wrote the music for the series. So 0:47:11.760 --> 0:47:13.880 it's a conversation between the two of them, and the 0:47:13.920 --> 0:47:15.720 first voice you hear is Alex's voice. 0:47:16.840 --> 0:47:17.000 Right. 0:47:17.040 --> 0:47:19.720 I've been thinking a lot about this whole quest for 0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:25.960 Bruce as queer icon. Bruce isn't my queer icon. That 0:47:26.000 --> 0:47:29.839 doesn't mean that Bruce can't be a queer icon. There's 0:47:29.880 --> 0:47:32.719 a lot of like white women in the halls of 0:47:32.800 --> 0:47:36.960 queer iconography, and who's picking those icons? 0:47:37.120 --> 0:47:37.319 Right? 0:47:37.440 --> 0:47:39.400 It's been a lot of like the male. 0:47:39.280 --> 0:47:41.200 Gaze, See what you did there? 0:47:43.040 --> 0:47:45.279 So have Bruce right? Like, Bruce isn't for me, But 0:47:45.719 --> 0:47:49.760 because Bruce brusted for this concept that I was running 0:47:49.800 --> 0:47:55.200 from already that other people were running two. I was 0:47:55.239 --> 0:47:58.839 living in this idea of macho that was kind of 0:47:58.880 --> 0:48:02.040 like held on a pedestal, and Bruce was occupying a 0:48:02.040 --> 0:48:06.879 space that was manly but not overly mocho, and it's 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:09.960 felt like kind of attainable. But I think also for 0:48:10.120 --> 0:48:14.440 me growing up a boy in New Jersey, it was 0:48:14.480 --> 0:48:17.880 sort of like dangerously alluring that you could just you 0:48:17.920 --> 0:48:20.360 could just be like Bruce and you could just keep 0:48:20.600 --> 0:48:27.200 guying out. As far as I understand, before this project, 0:48:27.840 --> 0:48:31.640 Bruce Springsteen the Boss was not a part of your life. 0:48:33.320 --> 0:48:34.160 Absolutely not. 0:48:34.719 --> 0:48:40.040 Okay, So now fast forward to you're suddenly helping make 0:48:40.080 --> 0:48:43.759 a podcast about Bruce, and you're presumably listening to a 0:48:43.800 --> 0:48:44.400 lot of Bruce. 0:48:44.440 --> 0:48:48.480 Now, so it's funny, like now my streaming algorithm is 0:48:52.000 --> 0:48:57.759 starting to recommend Bruce songs and I'm like, this a 0:48:57.760 --> 0:49:00.000 little man, This a little man got some. 0:49:04.520 --> 0:49:05.080 I get it. 0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:08.440 I absolutely get it. I absolutely get it. I'm like, 0:49:08.520 --> 0:49:10.960 I'm like crying thinking about it, like it's they're bops. 0:49:11.000 --> 0:49:14.400 They're absolutely bops, I must say, and like they contain 0:49:14.480 --> 0:49:16.719 like a different context to me. 0:49:16.800 --> 0:49:21.080 Now, so you just said, I guess that you you 0:49:21.160 --> 0:49:24.640 kind of implicitly recognized Bruce as queer icon. Do you 0:49:25.040 --> 0:49:26.960 do you think that Bruce is a queer icon? 0:49:27.880 --> 0:49:32.480 I am thoroughly convinced that he is, in fact a 0:49:32.560 --> 0:49:35.200 queer icon. I think I feel in the same way 0:49:35.200 --> 0:49:37.919 for you as in, like, he's not my queer icon, 0:49:38.320 --> 0:49:40.080 but there are things that I can recognize. 0:49:43.120 --> 0:49:45.800 Does the panel accept these additional pieces of evidence? 0:49:46.360 --> 0:49:47.839 Yeah, I mean I do. 0:49:48.040 --> 0:49:50.520 I'm happy to accept this evidence. You know, it's the 0:49:50.560 --> 0:49:54.280 last minute the court will enter the evidence. 0:49:57.000 --> 0:50:02.719 Perfect. The serious and legitimate peer review panel have heard 0:50:02.840 --> 0:50:05.000 all of Jesse and Holly's evidence, and it is now 0:50:05.160 --> 0:50:08.200 their time to share if they agree that Bruce Springsteen 0:50:08.320 --> 0:50:20.800 is a queer icon. That's after the break, we are back. 0:50:23.120 --> 0:50:26.200 I'm James Cunningham, and this is because the boss belongs 0:50:26.200 --> 0:50:29.520 to us. Seeing if this isn't actually a scientific study, 0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:31.960 I don't have to be a neutral adjudicator, so I'm 0:50:31.960 --> 0:50:36.880 going to have my say too. I think that queerness 0:50:36.960 --> 0:50:41.560 is a personal expression of oneself and as a bucket, 0:50:41.760 --> 0:50:45.239 it's of your own filling and is intensely individual. And 0:50:45.280 --> 0:50:49.239 so I think if you know, this kind of Americana 0:50:49.440 --> 0:50:54.200 persona stands as an icon for people who are oppressed 0:50:54.440 --> 0:50:59.040 and marginalized and you know, trying to piece their way 0:50:59.080 --> 0:51:02.160 out of themselves to something greater than like where are 0:51:02.160 --> 0:51:05.640 we to stop it? And I also think that anybody 0:51:05.680 --> 0:51:07.879 who can look that good in an ecker chief, some 0:51:08.000 --> 0:51:10.360 cut off down them jacket and some tight tight jeans, 0:51:10.800 --> 0:51:13.040 you know, deserves definitely a point on the board too. 0:51:14.880 --> 0:51:17.560 I think it's interesting that you describe queenness is like 0:51:17.840 --> 0:51:19.840 there is like a very kind of individual version to 0:51:19.880 --> 0:51:24.200 everyone's definition of queerness. And there's a very individual listic 0:51:24.320 --> 0:51:28.239 thing around like queer icons and putting people on these pedestals. 0:51:28.480 --> 0:51:30.239 But something that Holly and I have learned, I guess 0:51:30.239 --> 0:51:33.520 across the series is also like, ultimately, the best thing 0:51:33.560 --> 0:51:35.880 that happened that from all of Bruce Springsteen is that 0:51:35.920 --> 0:51:39.239 we found community through that, Like we've found people and 0:51:39.280 --> 0:51:41.919 the things that we care about ultimately, like the things 0:51:41.920 --> 0:51:42.800 that bring us together. 0:51:46.320 --> 0:51:49.640 And so it's time for our queer icon experts final 0:51:49.680 --> 0:51:53.840 decision on whether Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. So 0:51:53.920 --> 0:51:58.040 the panel you may answer yes or no. You may 0:51:58.080 --> 0:52:00.920 also answer yes, but with some suggest revisions to the 0:52:01.000 --> 0:52:03.000 study Zekia Gibbons. 0:52:03.600 --> 0:52:07.319 So you know, like I said, I still have yet 0:52:07.400 --> 0:52:12.720 to really listen to a Bruce song, so I feel 0:52:12.719 --> 0:52:18.560 like I cannot claim him as my queer icon. But 0:52:18.680 --> 0:52:20.839 you know, after you know, having listened to the show, 0:52:20.840 --> 0:52:24.960 after listening to y'all's arguments, hearing you know, other people's 0:52:25.000 --> 0:52:30.200 experiences and views on Bruce, I can't deny other people's feelings. 0:52:30.680 --> 0:52:33.440 If he is a queer icon to them, then he is. 0:52:33.840 --> 0:52:36.160 But I also just listen to it, I'm like, oh, 0:52:36.560 --> 0:52:40.319 these arguments are landing for me like I see it. 0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:43.040 But does he feel like a queer icon to me? 0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:46.680 Not yet, because I need to listen to his music. 0:52:46.920 --> 0:52:49.399 But like I said before, he is giving baby Girl, 0:52:49.520 --> 0:52:54.080 so he he upgraded. He upgraded from me having zero 0:52:54.239 --> 0:52:56.960 opinions on him to being like, oh my god, Bruce 0:52:57.120 --> 0:53:01.200 is baby Girl, like I buck with them, and so 0:53:01.360 --> 0:53:03.000 check in with me in a few months after I've 0:53:03.000 --> 0:53:06.319 listened to some songs, and I'll probably be standing him 0:53:06.360 --> 0:53:07.480 as a queer icon as well. 0:53:11.239 --> 0:53:11.800 You let me. 0:53:12.440 --> 0:53:14.560 It's funny because I came into this thinking, no, he's 0:53:14.600 --> 0:53:16.480 not a queer icon, and I say that as a 0:53:16.719 --> 0:53:19.360 queer fan. But then as I've listened to the evidence, 0:53:19.719 --> 0:53:23.880 there's clearly everything's there. He is camp, but then people 0:53:23.960 --> 0:53:26.440 who love his camp love it with an intensity and 0:53:26.480 --> 0:53:28.920 a sincerity that goes far beyond, which I think is 0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:32.279 like the main point that makes a queer icon. And 0:53:32.360 --> 0:53:35.400 he does ruefully underdog even if he himself is a millionaire, 0:53:35.880 --> 0:53:37.840 and he can dance to his music and talk to 0:53:37.880 --> 0:53:40.560 his music. So I've checked on my minds. I think that 0:53:40.560 --> 0:53:42.640 he is a queer icon, although he's still not my 0:53:42.760 --> 0:53:46.160 queer icon. I'm just a queer fan. But I also 0:53:46.200 --> 0:53:49.040 think that Joel was right Earlies. This isn't really a 0:53:49.200 --> 0:53:53.200 subject to scientific study. This is a matter of theology. 0:53:53.520 --> 0:53:56.120 You either believe in the Boss or you don't. No 0:53:56.200 --> 0:53:59.080 amount of sort of persuasive argument can change you one 0:53:59.120 --> 0:54:01.080 word the other. Feed it in your heart or you 0:54:01.080 --> 0:54:03.000 don't fit it in your heart. We don't really need 0:54:03.000 --> 0:54:06.200 a scientists or physicists for this. You lead up a priest. 0:54:06.560 --> 0:54:09.040 What I'm hearing from you, h is that we've successfully 0:54:09.080 --> 0:54:10.920 managed to get us a gear into the cult. 0:54:12.480 --> 0:54:15.880 I would say I in terms of cult, I have 0:54:16.040 --> 0:54:20.200 like one arm in the sleeve of the cult cloak. 0:54:22.000 --> 0:54:24.440 I pad with some music. I will probably slip my 0:54:24.520 --> 0:54:28.880 other arm in and I'll be fully darning the Bruce 0:54:28.920 --> 0:54:31.000 Bringsen cult cloak. 0:54:31.200 --> 0:54:32.840 Next time we see you, you're going to be in 0:54:32.840 --> 0:54:33.720 that denim cloak. 0:54:34.680 --> 0:54:37.759 Yes, then club, Now that I know it's Denham, maybe 0:54:37.800 --> 0:54:42.680 I'll yeah, I'll wear it even sooner it would be Denham. 0:54:43.400 --> 0:54:44.640 Everyone wants to start somewhere. 0:54:46.640 --> 0:54:47.480 You can't start a fire. 0:54:47.480 --> 0:54:51.719 Oh amen to that. 0:54:54.840 --> 0:54:58.600 And finally, Joel Taylor, it really. 0:54:58.360 --> 0:55:02.160 Really really just agreeing with everything you were you were suggesting. 0:55:02.239 --> 0:55:10.320 But h, Yes, the revision. I accept that. 0:55:11.360 --> 0:55:15.680 Is your queer. Yes, he's your queer, not mine. 0:55:19.680 --> 0:55:21.440 Thank you so so much, Bun. 0:55:22.160 --> 0:55:25.840 That was so amazing and not as scary as I 0:55:25.840 --> 0:55:26.520 thought it was going to be. 0:55:36.560 --> 0:55:37.600 That was so good. 0:55:40.120 --> 0:55:44.640 Oh man, I think I'm still shaking. I was really scared. 0:55:44.719 --> 0:55:48.640 I was really nervous. That felt that felt terrifying. 0:55:48.800 --> 0:55:50.000 Yeah, we I truly. 0:55:50.080 --> 0:55:52.160 I kept being like we did this to ourselves, like 0:55:52.280 --> 0:55:54.640 we we chose to be tested in this world. 0:55:54.880 --> 0:55:57.080 But now I'm thinking maybe I should do a pH d. 0:55:58.760 --> 0:56:04.640 Maybe that's next. It will make a bean, I really thought. 0:56:04.960 --> 0:56:08.760 I mean Joelle, who knew at the last moment. Actually, 0:56:08.840 --> 0:56:11.200 to be fair, I think all of them. Up until 0:56:11.239 --> 0:56:12.600 about halfway through, I thought. 0:56:12.440 --> 0:56:13.120 There's no chance. 0:56:13.280 --> 0:56:15.560 Yeah, there are so many people that run from that 0:56:15.640 --> 0:56:19.760 element of masculinity, like everything that Bruce represents. Why would 0:56:19.800 --> 0:56:21.360 we want to them celebrate that? 0:56:22.040 --> 0:56:23.680 But I thought it was so beautiful what Alex said 0:56:23.680 --> 0:56:26.239 about like that is a thing in that final bit 0:56:26.239 --> 0:56:29.480 of evidence of being like this, like new and playful relationships. 0:56:29.520 --> 0:56:31.719 Mascultee is something that some queer people run towards and 0:56:31.760 --> 0:56:34.759 some people are running from, and that just shows like 0:56:35.360 --> 0:56:37.960 simply whoops, you can't imaginize queer people. 0:56:39.040 --> 0:56:41.880 But Joelle, like very very early on, just like Hammered 0:56:41.880 --> 0:56:44.279 does with you know, should we be doing this, like 0:56:44.400 --> 0:56:47.160 why not members of our own queer community? What's difference 0:56:47.160 --> 0:56:49.920 between queer icons and gacons? And we went through that 0:56:49.960 --> 0:56:53.799 on the depression bench in episode four. We really interrogated 0:56:53.800 --> 0:56:56.200 our feelings on that. But of course that was something 0:56:56.239 --> 0:56:58.239 that Joel's going to question as all totally because it 0:56:58.239 --> 0:56:59.799 needs to be asked. I think if anybody else did 0:56:59.840 --> 0:57:03.080 this again, you have to ask those questions. And also 0:57:03.360 --> 0:57:05.120 you have to feel pretty shit about it. 0:57:06.040 --> 0:57:06.480 You just have to. 0:57:06.440 --> 0:57:08.239 Feel really anxious and depressed about it. 0:57:15.680 --> 0:57:20.120 Okay, thank you everyone so much for listening to because 0:57:20.160 --> 0:57:21.360 the bus belongs to us. 0:57:21.680 --> 0:57:22.760 You heard it here first. 0:57:22.880 --> 0:57:28.640 Bruce Brinstein is a queer icon because he's our queer icon. Yeah, 0:57:29.360 --> 0:57:31.680 so anyway, to be honest, we just did this because 0:57:31.760 --> 0:57:34.760 we love Bruce and we love to love things too much. 0:57:35.680 --> 0:57:37.680 This has allowed us to connect to so many queer 0:57:37.720 --> 0:57:40.400 Bruce fans. There's so many of us out there slowly 0:57:40.480 --> 0:57:43.160 infiltrating the queer community with our Bruce loving ways. 0:57:43.640 --> 0:57:46.920 And regardless of what evidence we have, Bruce just is 0:57:46.960 --> 0:57:50.240 our queer icon, at least for now, because he's important 0:57:50.280 --> 0:57:51.640 to us and. 0:57:51.600 --> 0:57:57.320 Now it's time to say goodbye. Holly. 0:57:57.800 --> 0:58:01.520 Climbing is a town full pleasers, and we're pulling out 0:58:01.520 --> 0:58:02.040 of here. 0:58:01.920 --> 0:58:02.560 To win. 0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:30.960 Because the boss belongs to us. Is a production of 0:58:31.000 --> 0:58:34.320 Malton Hart and iHeart Podcasts. We're hosted by Jesse Lawson 0:58:34.400 --> 0:58:35.200 and Holly Cassio. 0:58:36.360 --> 0:58:39.000 The series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and 0:58:39.040 --> 0:58:40.320 created by Jesse Lawson. 0:58:41.120 --> 0:58:43.920 This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson, 0:58:44.160 --> 0:58:47.600 with production assistants by Tess Hazel. Michelle maclum is our 0:58:47.640 --> 0:58:48.360 mix engineer. 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:52.120 Our original music and theme is by Talk Bazaar at 0:58:52.200 --> 0:58:55.480 Talk v A z A R Underscore. Our show art 0:58:55.480 --> 0:58:58.400 was designed and illustrated by Holly Cassio at Holly c 0:58:58.480 --> 0:58:59.840 A s i O. 0:59:00.080 --> 0:59:02.480 Executive producer from Malton Hart is Jasmine J. T. 0:59:02.640 --> 0:59:02.880 Green. 0:59:03.200 --> 0:59:06.720 Our executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Lindy Hoffman. 0:59:07.760 --> 0:59:11.280 A reminder that our friends have released six absolutely stunning 0:59:11.320 --> 0:59:14.800 Bruce covers to celebrate the series, Fight Milk, The Sheridans, 0:59:14.920 --> 0:59:18.400 coy O, Day, mus Ghost, Daskinsey four and Command Jasmine. 0:59:18.760 --> 0:59:20.640 There's a link in our show notes for the Queer 0:59:20.720 --> 0:59:23.040 Springsteen playlist listen there. 0:59:24.120 --> 0:59:26.400 Thank you so much for the special people who've supported 0:59:26.480 --> 0:59:30.920 us while making the series. Lauren Passel, Arlie Ablinton, James Cunningham, 0:59:30.960 --> 0:59:35.440 Fen Williams, Kyle Gibbons, Beth Elden, Kerr, Oriel Wiles, Alana 0:59:35.480 --> 0:59:37.760 Cumbier for inspiring our name and bringing us. 0:59:37.680 --> 0:59:41.600 Together, Phil Roberts for buying me my first gay brucene. 0:59:40.920 --> 0:59:42.840 And all of our friends and family who have put 0:59:42.920 --> 0:59:46.240 up with us obsessively talking about Bruce forever and listen 0:59:46.320 --> 0:59:48.800 to so much springs in against their will. It's not 0:59:48.840 --> 0:59:51.160 going to stop, guys, just because the podcast's. 0:59:50.720 --> 0:59:52.440 Over and when more. 0:59:52.480 --> 0:59:54.720 Little shout out to the val Halla Suite, which is 0:59:54.760 --> 0:59:57.200 a free plugin for audio nerdes and has been used 0:59:57.440 --> 1:00:00.360 so much throughout the series. On my website, I have 1:00:00.400 --> 1:00:02.880 a list of resources for people interested in getting into audio. 1:00:03.120 --> 1:00:04.280 I'll link it in the show notes. 1:00:05.040 --> 1:00:07.200 For more Queer Bruce content from us, check out my 1:00:07.280 --> 1:00:10.280 scenes at Colschmall dot com and follow Drag King Butch 1:00:10.320 --> 1:00:13.040 Sprinksteen at Butch Sprinksteen Underscore Drag. 1:00:14.120 --> 1:00:16.680 I'm at Jesse lu Dawson and Holly is at Holly 1:00:16.720 --> 1:00:18.720 Cassio on socials stay in touch. 1:00:18.840 --> 1:00:35.480 You've not heard the last from us. Bye bye bye