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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm the Owaishaw. You may know me as the

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Speaker 1: former host of Visibilia. Well, I'm back with a new

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Speaker 1: show called Proxy. It's about the niche emotional questions that

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Speaker 1: no one in your life can relate to. That's where

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Speaker 1: Proxy comes in. I'll connect you to researchers and strangers

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Speaker 1: with shared experience, and you'll get to ask all your questions.

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Speaker 1: We're kicking things off with a three part series on

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Speaker 1: the emotional and mental health toll of layoffs. Subscribe to

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Speaker 1: Proxy wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: This is episode seven of Because the Bus belongs to Us.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jesse, I'm Holly, and i am James.

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Speaker 3: That's right. For this final episode, Jesse and Holly must

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Speaker 3: face a panel of queers who will decide once and

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Speaker 3: for all if Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. Who

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Speaker 3: am I? You ask, well, I am an actual, legitimate

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Speaker 3: queer in stem I've spent the last decade working in

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Speaker 3: engineering in life science, building robots basically because seeing is

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Speaker 3: Jesse and Holly have spent the entire series saying that

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Speaker 3: they are on a serious scientific mission. They've drafted me

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Speaker 3: in to give them the cloud that they so desperately need.

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Speaker 3: As you'll remember, way back in episode one, Holly and

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Speaker 3: Jesse anointed themselves with queer scientist researcher status. I went

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Speaker 3: on a mission to get Bruce Springsteen recognized as a

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Speaker 3: queer icon. That mission is finally coming to a close.

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Speaker 3: They've discussed if Bruce's camp, if he can be rooted

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Speaker 3: for as an underdog, and if you can dance, cry,

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Speaker 3: and falk to Bruce Springstein's music. Now it's time for

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Speaker 3: the final point on their checklist. Our hosts must present

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Speaker 3: their evidence to a panel of queer experts who don't

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Speaker 3: already think that Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. Does

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Speaker 3: Bruce have it? Okay, let's go in the hot seats.

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Speaker 3: We have our two self proclaimed queer scientists, Holly Cassio

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Speaker 3: and Jesse Lawson. Please introduce yourselves and explain why you

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Speaker 3: feel qualified to the store yourselves with this scientific investigation.

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Speaker 3: Let's start with Jesse.

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Speaker 4: Hello, my name is Jesse. I U say then pronouns.

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Speaker 2: I'm a tourist, I am an audio producer, youth worker

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Speaker 2: and perform drag as butcher Springsteen and I have been

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Speaker 2: a proper Bruce fan for the last ten years. He

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Speaker 2: helped to drag me out of the closet of my

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Speaker 2: own brain, and that is why I feel qualified for

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Speaker 2: this panel.

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Speaker 3: Amazing and now, Holly.

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Speaker 5: Hi, I'm Holly, my pronouns are there. She I'm a Leoh.

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Speaker 5: I'm also a zine maker and a comic artist. I'm

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Speaker 5: the author of the Me and Bruce zine series, and

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Speaker 5: I also made the Looking for Bruce graphic memoir. I've

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Speaker 5: been a proper Bruce fan for about twenty five years

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Speaker 5: and he was my first ever queer friend, and that's

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Speaker 5: why I'm qualified to be part of this investigation.

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Speaker 3: Thanks, seeing as you've said multiple times over the series

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Speaker 3: that you're doing a proper scientific investigation into Bruce Springsteen's

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Speaker 3: queer icon status. This episode is taking the form of

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Speaker 3: an academic peer review. I have collected a panel of

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Speaker 3: leading experts in this field, queer icondom. They will be

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Speaker 3: presented with Holly and Jesse's research and be asked to

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Speaker 3: interrogate its aims, purpose, methodology, and the ethics and value

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Speaker 3: of this work. It is my pleasure to welcome that

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Speaker 3: panel today. Firstly, welcome Zakia Gibbons. Please introduce yourselves, explain

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Speaker 3: a little bit about why your best place to evaluate

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Speaker 3: this investigation, and for bonus points, I'd love to know your.

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Speaker 6: Current relationship status with Bruce. Hello, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 6: I mean, y'all did your ZOOI X science. I guess

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Speaker 6: I'll give you mine. I'm a kind answer. I'm also

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Speaker 6: a chaotic bisexual living in gay Ass Brooklyn, and I'm

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Speaker 6: from gay ass Atlanta, and I am a journalist covering

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Speaker 6: gay ass shit and my current relationship status with the Boss.

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Speaker 6: I honestly know nothing about Bruce Bringsteen. I don't think

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Speaker 6: I've ever listened to a whole song from beginning to end.

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Speaker 6: I am kind of coming in pretty neutral awesome.

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Speaker 3: Next, you have Hugh Lemmy. Please tell us about your

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Speaker 3: pedigree and explain your current relationship to the idea of

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Speaker 3: the Boss as a queer icon.

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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 7: My name is ce Lemmy. I'm a writer and co

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Speaker 7: host of the podcast Bad Gays, and as a fully

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Speaker 7: registered and accredited to practicing homosexual, I think it's my right,

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Speaker 7: if not my duty, in fact, to be as judgmental

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Speaker 7: as I please about straight guys. But I do think

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Speaker 7: as a fan of the Boss for two decades or

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Speaker 7: more in good standing, I think I'm yet to be

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Speaker 7: convinced to the queerness of his icon status.

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Speaker 3: Oh things are heating up. And finally, Joelle Taylor, you

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Speaker 3: know what to do.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, Man's Joel Taylor, a poet and author, and my

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Speaker 8: latest poetry collection is called Conto and Other Poems. And

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Speaker 8: then Alphabet, which is a novel both look in part

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Speaker 8: of subculture of the eighties and nineties and reveals it

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Speaker 8: to be part of a space of radical friendship and community.

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Speaker 8: If you've seen the Rebel Dykes film, that's the kind

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Speaker 8: of era I'm talking about. And as such, and as

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Speaker 8: somebody who's part of that whole scene, somebody thinks of

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Speaker 8: the kind of things we did to you know, as queer,

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Speaker 8: as how we squatted and how we come to And

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Speaker 8: I just can't entertain the idea. And Bruce Springsteen is

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Speaker 8: a queer icon. I think she's everything that queer icon

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Speaker 8: is not. I can't see how this straight white multi millionaire,

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Speaker 8: this kind of shimmering vision of masculinity entitlement a miracle

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Speaker 8: and is a legendary terrible hair and.

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Speaker 9: Queer right on.

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Speaker 3: Happily now, panel, this is not an interrogation. It's not

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Speaker 3: your job to work against Jesse and Holly, but it

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Speaker 3: is your job to uphold them to the standards you

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Speaker 3: see fit. It's also important to note, for the purposes

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Speaker 3: of this study, I'm not investigating if Jesse and Holly

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Speaker 3: can convince you all to love Bruce Bringsteen. I'm investigating

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Speaker 3: whether you can recognize that there is enough evidence from

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Speaker 3: the research that they've done that the Boss has enough weight, bun, gravitas,

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Speaker 3: and gumption to stand as a queer icon. At the

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Speaker 3: end of this conversation, I'll be asking you all if

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Speaker 3: you can accept this research and therefore Bruce with the

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Speaker 3: same queer icon credentials bestowed upon the likes of Whitney,

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Speaker 3: Madonna and countless others in our community. You may say

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Speaker 3: yes or no and share suggested revisions to their thesis

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Speaker 3: of any Are we all sitting comfortably, then let's begin.

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Speaker 3: First up, we're shining a spotlight on the reasons behind

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Speaker 3: the study, What were its aims and why the Jesse

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Speaker 3: and Holly and barrack on this mission.

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Speaker 4: Jesse, Yes so, because the best belongs to us.

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Speaker 2: Is a seven part investigation where me and Holly try

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Speaker 2: and prove with real science that Bruce Springsteen is a

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Speaker 2: queer icon and I guess like the reason that we

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Speaker 2: did it is because we met. We both queer people

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Speaker 2: who loved Bruce Bingstein, and that's how we met and bunded,

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Speaker 2: and then we kind of worked out there were more

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Speaker 2: of us. So this is our love letter to other

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Speaker 2: queer Bruce fans out there.

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Speaker 5: I think even though at one time both me and

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Speaker 5: Jesse thought we were the only queers in the world

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Speaker 5: that loved Bruce Springsteen or the found meaning in his work,

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Speaker 5: it turns out there are so many of us out there.

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Speaker 5: And through Jesse doing their Butcher Springsteen drag and through

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Speaker 5: me making scenes that felt like it was a way

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Speaker 5: to open up conversations and meet other queer people that

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Speaker 5: also had this obsession with Bruce. And I think QUI

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Speaker 5: Springsteen fans have been overlooked long enough. There is actually

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Speaker 5: so many queer Bruce Sprigsteen fans that we met that

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Speaker 5: we couldn't fit them into all six episodes. So shout

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Speaker 5: out to Tennessee Jones and Natalie Adler for their amazing

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Speaker 5: writing on Bruce. And actually I have a small dossier

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Speaker 5: to present the panel. I'm going to play a recording

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Speaker 5: and these are two fans. This is Claire and Lee.

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Speaker 4: So my name is Clybidels.

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Speaker 10: I'm a writer and a.

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Speaker 4: Team maker and I live in Glasgow.

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Speaker 11: I'm a trans guy in my thirties who has been

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Speaker 11: a fan of Pretty since my late teens. I identified

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Speaker 11: as a CIS straight ish woman throughout my twenties, and

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Speaker 11: throughout those years he provided a very passionate channel to

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Speaker 11: my inner queer and was quite literally the only artist

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Speaker 11: I listened to. There wasn't the same trans mass representation

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Speaker 11: back then as I see now, So even though he

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Speaker 11: was cis and straight, that's not how I considered.

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Speaker 10: Him, although I'd heard a lot of his more famous

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Speaker 10: songs just in the ethero when I was a child.

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Speaker 10: I think the first album that I dived into was

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Speaker 10: A Darkness on the Edge of Town and it was

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Speaker 10: kind of like a real love at first listen kind

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Speaker 10: of thing. Queerness to me is so much about kind

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Speaker 10: of existing in this in between space and in this

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Speaker 10: like unnamed unknoble space that could go somewhere you don't

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Speaker 10: know where it's going to go, and it's about the

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Speaker 10: getting there, and it's about the figuring out. Like I

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Speaker 10: find queerness itself to be a refusal of stability.

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Speaker 12: Of and of knowing. It's like a state of unknowing,

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Speaker 12: and I find.

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Speaker 4: That so much in Bruce's work.

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Speaker 11: He sparked some deep feelings of me that I know

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Speaker 11: is entirely linked to my queer identity. His seventies twin era,

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Speaker 11: his hyper masculinity in the eighties, his gentle Cowboys, Sauce Wager,

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Speaker 11: as he got older, darkness on the edge of town, backstreets,

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Speaker 11: out in the street, these songs were playing my headphines

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Speaker 11: as I walked along, and I fantasized about having a life,

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Speaker 11: a physical image, and a type of love that didn't

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Speaker 11: feel accessible to me at all, and Bruce was right

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Speaker 11: there with me.

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Speaker 12: A queer icon to me is someone who articulates something

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Speaker 12: that we can't articulate for ourselves. And like Rosalita, especially

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Speaker 12: the division that's on the Live nineteen seventy five to

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Speaker 12: nineteen eighty five album, it's this like super long, drawn

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Speaker 12: out like it feels like it's leading up to a

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Speaker 12: kind of climax so many times but doesn't quite get there.

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Speaker 12: But when it gets there, it's just like so cathartic,

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Speaker 12: and it's all about like asking a girl out.

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Speaker 11: I don't listen to him as much anymore that he

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Speaker 11: still has a special place in my heart. I'm an

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Speaker 11: outgay trans man, so I guess he provided a comfort

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Speaker 11: that I don't need in quite the same way anymore,

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Speaker 11: But it'll always be a queer icon to me.

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Speaker 3: I'll now open the floor for questions from the panel

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Speaker 3: on the aims of the study. Zakiah, what are your

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Speaker 3: questions on this?

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Speaker 6: Okay, I'm wondering, do y'all have a secret heterosexual agenda

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Speaker 6: trying to flood a queer culture with street people?

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Speaker 5: I mean, there's already enough straight people flooding queer culture

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Speaker 5: as icons. I don't feel that's that's our agenda necessarily,

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Speaker 5: but we are opening up what that could mean and

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Speaker 5: looking at different types of queer icons.

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Speaker 13: Why not why not have a plan as Yeah?

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Speaker 2: No, I think that's like such an important question and

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Speaker 2: something that we've really grappled with across the series. And

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Speaker 2: I guess, like, if we're talking about the aims of

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Speaker 2: the study, I guess the reason we started it is

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Speaker 2: because there are more and more out queer icons who

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Speaker 2: are queer. But there is something about Bruce Springsteen that

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Speaker 2: drew me and Holly in, even though he's like a

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Speaker 2: cis white, straight, rich man, and so we were like,

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Speaker 2: we want to get to the bottom of like why

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Speaker 2: we're projecting so much onto a man like that, And

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Speaker 2: it is a promise.

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Speaker 4: It's not just us.

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Speaker 5: It's definitely not just us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you all. Through your thoughts, Hugh, you seem like

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Speaker 3: a guy who cares about purpose. One are the burning

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Speaker 3: questions on your lips? I appre hearing that.

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Speaker 7: Well, you don't need to convince me of what Bruce

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Speaker 7: sprint to the table as an artist here, Like his

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Speaker 7: music and his lyrics a specially brought me the same

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Speaker 7: sort of joy and solace and also like a sort

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Speaker 7: of richer deeper understanding of my own emotional life over

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Speaker 7: the years. But I'm just wondering whether, in tryers to

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Speaker 7: find him as a queer icon, we're kind of actually

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Speaker 7: centering ourselves here, Like have you have you considered that

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Speaker 7: maybe what's at stake isn't about how he helps us

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Speaker 7: understand our queerness, but also oro maybe more how he

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Speaker 7: helps us understand ourselves in the context of like other

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Speaker 7: people's heterosexuality.

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Speaker 4: Oh say more on that please.

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Speaker 7: When I was in my late teens and signed to

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Speaker 7: already get into Bruce it was through all these straight

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Speaker 7: CIS white boys my age who I met in the

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Speaker 7: hardcore punk scene, and I come from this like very

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Speaker 7: sort of sort of matcho sporty or you know, football

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Speaker 7: rugby type background, and then suddenly I was surround by

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Speaker 7: all these boys who are like really sensitive and the

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Speaker 7: way that they access their sensitivities and like thinking about

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Speaker 7: their emotional in their life was through Bruce and that's

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Speaker 7: how I bodied with them. And I was like, well,

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Speaker 7: you feel this way about him. I feel this way

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Speaker 7: about him. He speaks to both of us, and actually

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Speaker 7: it was really useful for me to think, oh, maybe

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Speaker 7: actually this image of sort of heterosexuality that I've grown

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Speaker 7: up with is actually more complicated, and there's other heterosexual

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Speaker 7: boys who are also as fucked up by this sort

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Speaker 7: of system as I am.

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Speaker 2: That's come up loads in the series as well, Like

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Speaker 2: that's I think that's true for me and Holly is

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Speaker 2: like a lot of the people we've bonded with have

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Speaker 2: also been people who aren't queer but.

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Speaker 5: Have like found something to either felt that they needed

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Speaker 5: to aspire to Bruce's version of heterosexuality or masculinity, and

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Speaker 5: in some ways, depending on who we spoke to. Some

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Speaker 5: ways that was helpful for people, and in some ways

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Speaker 5: that was almost like a punishment, like, oh, I can't

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Speaker 5: live up to that, so I have failed gender somehow,

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Speaker 5: I've failed being myself somehow. So it throws up all

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Speaker 5: these really big questions. And definitely the thing we found

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Speaker 5: in this scientific study is that not one single person

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Speaker 5: feels the same way about Bruce. We're all getting something

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Speaker 5: slightly different from him. It's not the same version of

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Speaker 5: Bruce that we all have in our heads.

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Speaker 2: And also, like, it's funny that you said, like, are

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Speaker 2: we at risk of like centering ourselves in this which

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Speaker 2: I would say one hundred percent, yes we are, But

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Speaker 2: like I think maybe that's like something.

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Speaker 4: That's quite beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Is like a lot of what we have been thinking

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Speaker 2: about is all of the different creative ways that people

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Speaker 2: find themselves through projecting what they need to on other

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Speaker 2: people with the resources that they have.

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Speaker 3: Thank you all. Let's move on and discuss the methodology

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Speaker 3: of this investigation. Jesse, can you please briefly summarize the

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Speaker 3: four criteria you said out at the beginning.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so we looked at a bunch of what we

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Speaker 2: were calling at the time queer icons. Maybe they're just

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Speaker 2: gay icons, which is like you know, Madonnatina Turner, Whitney Share,

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Speaker 2: Brittany people like that. We called them our control group

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Speaker 2: because we're scientists, and we looked at what links them

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Speaker 2: all together so we could try and make a kind

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Speaker 2: of checklist, and we came up with these four points

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Speaker 2: that Bruce would have to fulfill to be a queer icon.

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Speaker 2: The first one is that queer icons have to be

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Speaker 2: camp and that is an aesthetic thing, but it's also

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Speaker 2: a vibe, like a truth telling Queer icons to we

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Speaker 2: have to be able to root for them as an underdog,

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Speaker 2: and what we mean by that is we have to

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Speaker 2: be able to recognize a struggle in them that they

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Speaker 2: might have got through or succeeded past, so we can

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Speaker 2: look at them and be like, oh, they've been through

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Speaker 2: stuff like I've been through, and they're on the other

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Speaker 2: side of it.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 2: If they're a musician, they have to have good music,

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Speaker 2: and that we define that by lots of queer people

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Speaker 2: get really good at association as closeted queer teenagers, and

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Speaker 2: so it has to be music that helps to drag

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Speaker 2: you out of years of dissociation. And then we sub

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Speaker 2: genred that by saying you have to be able to cry, dance,

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Speaker 2: and fuck to Bruce Springsteen's music. And then the last

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Speaker 2: one is, obviously, do they have it to other queer

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Speaker 2: people who don't already think they're an icon?

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Speaker 4: Could they be convinced? And that's why we're here today.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Jessie. So does the panel agree with these criterias

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Speaker 3: indicative of what a queer icon is? Let's start with Joelle.

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Speaker 3: Do you think you can reduce a queer icon to

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Speaker 3: a list of four check boxes?

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Speaker 8: I mean, to be honest and it certainly no, absolutely not,

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Speaker 8: but having it explained it actually makes a lot of sense. Really,

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Speaker 8: so I am quite I'm persuaded, Yes you can, I

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Speaker 8: think so. We camp is obviously funds of mental to it,

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Speaker 8: the idea of the underdog as well. I mean, you say,

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Speaker 8: good music. I get you. Obviously he's got to be

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Speaker 8: good or he wouldn't be an extremely parous musician. But

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Speaker 8: just makes my skin all off my body, and I believed,

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Speaker 8: but you know, if it's I guess good music is

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Speaker 8: what unites people and brings people together. And there are

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Speaker 8: millions of bands out there, so yes, And do they

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Speaker 8: have eight I'm not sure it's they got it talking.

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Speaker 8: It sounds religious, it is this sort of is that

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Speaker 8: kind of quality.

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Speaker 4: To Oh, that's such an interesting question.

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Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, icon comes from that, doesn't it That

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Speaker 5: whole idea of having icons that have deeper spiritual meaning?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Zakiya. Can you name someone for us that you

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Speaker 3: see as a queer icon and do they fill these criteria?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm I'm thinking of two names. One is kind

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Speaker 6: of like a basic cliche, but it's just the truth.

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Speaker 6: Britney Spears. I just fucking love her, and I would

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Speaker 6: say shell those criteria. She is so canapy, from her

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Speaker 6: looks to just her vibe. I love that she is

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Speaker 6: an unapologetically chaotic high femme and her songs are fucking bangers.

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Speaker 6: It literally makes me feel transcended when I'm on the

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Speaker 6: dance floor. Maybe that's the Poppers, I don't know. Also,

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Speaker 6: I've cried to her songs and I think I think

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Speaker 6: I fucked her song at least once. If you seek

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Speaker 6: amy my favorite bisexual anthem and also underdog like Hello.

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Speaker 6: She's been through so much, so I would say Brittany

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Speaker 6: is kind of my go to queer icon, and the

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Speaker 6: other one I was gonna say SpongeBob is also another

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Speaker 6: one of my dear icons, like the old show with

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Speaker 6: Spungebob is camp He is so campy, the absurdism of

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Speaker 6: him in the show. He is always fucking with gender,

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Speaker 6: he's gay for Patrick, and also he has also had

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Speaker 6: some banyers. Literally, I remember in third grade there was

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Speaker 6: an episode where they played in their version of the

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Speaker 6: super Bowl. They had a song and I literally shed

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Speaker 6: a single tear as like a nine year old because

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Speaker 6: it touched my car. So yeah, Mike queer icons ready

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Speaker 6: is one?

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Speaker 4: Rub I love that.

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Speaker 5: I want to get Bruce up there next to those

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Speaker 5: two people.

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Speaker 6: The triat.

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Speaker 3: No Jesse and Holly. Can you convince the panel that

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Speaker 3: Springsteen is still the points in your checklist? Please? Can

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Speaker 3: you take us through your findings? Let's start with chat.

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Speaker 5: Okay, So camp was the first item on our checklist,

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Speaker 5: and we decided that camp has really an ever changing meaning.

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Speaker 5: So we've gone a little bit further than Susan Suntag's

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Speaker 5: notes on Camp and we've joined that up with more

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Speaker 5: current theories of Butch Camp and Dyke Camp. So, using

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Speaker 5: that as our starting point, we said that Bruce's looks

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Speaker 5: were super camp. Whether it's his seventies twig clok or

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Speaker 5: it's all American look or even some of his more

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Speaker 5: contemporary looks, we said that they were camp. We also

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Speaker 5: said that there's an element of extravagance and generosity and

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Speaker 5: world building that's contained within Bruce's songs, his live shows,

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Speaker 5: and his performative aspect. We said they're extreme in a

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Speaker 5: camp way.

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Speaker 2: We had a lesbian fashion historian analyzed some of Bruce's

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Speaker 2: looks and one of the things that she said was

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Speaker 2: it's very gender and I feel like that's a good documentary.

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Speaker 3: Joelle, what are your thoughts on this?

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Speaker 8: When you first start, you know that camp has a

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Speaker 8: changing meaning. Where I went up was really darling. I

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Speaker 8: don't think so. When you started to speak, I was thinking,

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Speaker 8: because we never really do look at camp from a

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Speaker 8: diet or but perspective, and I fact, yes, I think

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Speaker 8: you're right. You know you're writing the rules as it were,

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Speaker 8: so you're defining what camp is. Yeah, I agree with you.

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Speaker 8: I agree, And I don't know the lyrics though, and

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Speaker 8: the look itself just really puts me off. So it

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Speaker 8: fascinates me, like what draws you to that hypromasculinity or that,

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Speaker 8: like you said, all American, what draws you to?

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Speaker 5: Originally we had one of our criteria was going to

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Speaker 5: be could you dress up as an icon at Halloween

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Speaker 5: party and somebody else would recognize what that was? But

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Speaker 5: that was kind of too shallow for what we were

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Speaker 5: going for because you could dress up as anybody. It

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Speaker 5: wasn't about something you could dress up as. It was

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Speaker 5: about is there extravagance mixed with authenticity as part of that?

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Speaker 5: And we thought Bruce really ticked that point.

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Speaker 2: Also, like there are some lesser known Bruce Springsteen looks

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Speaker 2: that we find to be very camp because there's obviously

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Speaker 2: in the eighties, you know, he was like all muscles

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Speaker 2: or bandanas or type blue jeans, which for us also

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Speaker 2: we do kind of look at and be like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's you know, looks like a lot of butch Kings.

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Speaker 4: That we've seen in the club.

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Speaker 2: But there's also you know, there's like in the seventies

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Speaker 2: he was all leather and as in there's a look

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Speaker 2: of his from like more recently that Holly calls his

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Speaker 2: stone bush blues look just beautiful.

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Speaker 7: The comparison of Katie Lang was really striking. I looked

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Speaker 7: up the two album covers when you mentioned on the

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Speaker 7: podcast and the spitting image of each other.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, moving on to checklists, point to underdog status, Jesse Go.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that we've kind of related to

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Speaker 2: in Bruce is that he has this quite critical relationship

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Speaker 2: with the expectations and presumptions based around masculinity, which we

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Speaker 2: see ourselves reflected in because it feels not too far

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Speaker 2: away from the very queer idea of like gender as

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Speaker 2: a performance. And he speaks very beautifully about masculinity in

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Speaker 2: his book and in a lot of his songs.

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Speaker 4: So that's something that we both felt.

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Speaker 2: You know, there are struggles in there that are relatable

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Speaker 2: to struggles of some queer people.

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Speaker 4: There's also just.

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Speaker 2: Like so many of his songs are about people not

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Speaker 2: understanding you, being stuck in a context, like wishing that

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Speaker 2: you could be you know, there's a very famous line,

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Speaker 2: there's something happening somewhere, baby. I just know that there

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Speaker 2: is this like yearning, and all of those are emotions

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Speaker 2: that queer people I think can kind of get on

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Speaker 2: board with. I guess we started thinking about whether or

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Speaker 2: not the Bruce Springsteen and of lyrics and stories as

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Speaker 2: different to the Bruce Springsteen who like walks around breathing.

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Speaker 4: Air in New Jersey.

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Speaker 2: He is obviously a multi millionaire, and so it feels

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Speaker 2: it didn't sit totally right with us to call an

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Speaker 2: extremely rich man an underdog. And we aren't totally sure

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Speaker 2: where he stands on some aspects of politics that are

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Speaker 2: really important to me and Holly, and we've both had

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Speaker 2: experiences of being around other kind of straight male Bruce

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Speaker 2: fans who've made us feel unsafe for like unlike them.

436
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 4: So that was we got a bit unsure at that point.

437
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I also want to just really really stress

438
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 5: that doubt and anxiety are absolutely key to this methodology.

439
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 5: We spent a lot of time asking ourselves if we

440
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 5: were the right people to be doing this, if there

441
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 5: was any point in what we were actually doing, if

442
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 5: anybody would get something from this. So just to say,

443
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 5: as part of this academic peer review, we believe if

444
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 5: you're replicating these results for yourself or replicating this investigation,

445
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 5: you need both a checklist and a depression bench. So

446
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 5: part of our investigation, I took Jesse to what I

447
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 5: call my depression bench, where we just poured over all

448
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 5: of the things we're feeling and doubts and anxiety about this,

449
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 5: So that would be the apparatus you would need for

450
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 5: this investigation if you're repeating this in future.

451
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 2: And then like another point that potentially we thought maybe

452
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: we'd add on if we did this study again is

453
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 2: like we ended up having this day where we were

454
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 2: like fucking hell, like do.

455
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 4: We even like Bruce Springsteen?

456
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 2: You know, and like maybe it's like a specifically career

457
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 2: experience that the way that we show love sometimes is

458
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 2: by like totally tearing apart the people in things that

459
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: we love in like really over renalizing them and like

460
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: projecting our own personalities onto people that didn't necessarily ask

461
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 2: for that. So that was where we ended really on

462
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: them on Underdog status is a check point.

463
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 3: Hugh, what are your thoughts on this?

464
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 7: Well, it's funny because the episode Yeah, where you focus

465
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 7: on Bruce as an underdog was for me it seemed

466
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 7: like you it was one that you were most sort

467
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 7: of anxious and critical of both him and also like

468
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 7: your own status in his investigations. But to me, it

469
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 7: seemed like it was the place where it was the

470
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,959
Speaker 7: most potential request because searching for this like perfect Bruce

471
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 7: and his perfect fans is like, as a perfect sort

472
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 7: of political subject is obviously going to fail. But what

473
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 7: is clearly there is that in his writings and his

474
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 7: music about being an underdog, which is what everyone there

475
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 7: has in common, Like, that's the commonality between like all

476
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 7: his fans. So although he's not the perfect person, when

477
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 7: he writes about those things, that's what we all sort

478
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 7: of identify with. You that the way he approaches his

479
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 7: hometown and the sort of feeling of both like sadness

480
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 7: and longing in his hometown or of wanting to escape

481
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 7: or Yeah, his approach to masculinity is something that can

482
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 7: be perhaps like a caring thing to do that. All

483
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 7: the other fans have some similar relationship to his music

484
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 7: and around those things, even if they don't fuably share

485
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 7: our political outwork. And it seems to me that that's

486
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 7: where all music, and especially his music is so powerful

487
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 7: that despite the differences, the fact that we react in

488
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 7: the same way to those lyrics means there's a starting

489
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 7: point for building alliances beyond our sort of sexuality and

490
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 7: gender differences.

491
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Yeah, Yeah, it was hard, wasn't it? Because

492
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: I think that is really beautiful. And then also we

493
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: were like, is that also a bit diluting in that

494
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 2: if anyone can relate to Prouce Springsteen's lyrics, does that

495
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 2: make him a queer iconogs that make him a good songwriter?

496
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 7: That's why I think he's a queer Eyeicut.

497
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 2: But I guess like one of our conclusions from that

498
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 2: was like, there is enough in his writing.

499
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 4: That allows us to create the.

500
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 2: Icon of our dreams in our little brains, and that

501
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: that is maybe the same thing that people do with

502
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 2: other celebrities too.

503
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, that this we view this as just one checklist

504
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 5: point as well, So viewing this in the context of

505
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 5: other things helped us kind of start through those very

506
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 5: complicated emotions on that very sad depression bench.

507
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 3: Thanks for the additional adults, Everyone talk to you about

508
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 3: your third checklist point good music.

509
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 5: Okay, so we've got a lot to say about music.

510
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 5: We wanted to see as an icon. Can his music

511
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 5: drag queers back from years of association? And we looked

512
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 5: at whether you could cry, dance, or fuck to his music.

513
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 5: So in terms of crying, I can cry right now

514
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 5: is if the panel would like me to cry enough,

515
00:27:58,320 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 5: But I can. I just want to say I can.

516
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 5: And also the most important thing. Straight men also cry

517
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 5: to to his music as well. We have a token

518
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 5: straight man on the show who talked about feelings of

519
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 5: crying at his shows. We've seen other men crying at

520
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,959
Speaker 5: his shows. I think Bruce gives us a gift of

521
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 5: being able to release your emotions through his music and

522
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 5: through his performance. So then we moved on to dance,

523
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 5: and we spoke to two legendary queer icons themselves, a

524
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 5: DJ Legends Unskinny Pop, who talked about they have a

525
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 5: set of Bruce Springsteen songs which absolutely unite a queer

526
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 5: dance floor and this feeling of euphoria that queers have

527
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 5: when hearing Bruce Springsteen in queer clubs and queer spaces.

528
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,479
Speaker 5: And then we looked at the checkpoint of fucking, and

529
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 5: we asked a very cool professional musician who said they'd

530
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 5: fucked to at least two Bruce Springsteen songs. And we

531
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 5: also had a listener right in Crystal who named another

532
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 5: good Bruce Springsteen fucking song, which is Candy's Room, which

533
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 5: we didn't get to talk about in that particular episode.

534
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 5: So I think those were our three areas, and I

535
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 5: think that wasn't of our funnest checkpoints.

536
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 3: Agree, Zakia, what do you think about Bruce's music?

537
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 6: I'm sure I've heard Bruce Springsteen's song, but I don't know,

538
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 6: but like I don't know well enough to be like, oh,

539
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 6: that's Bruce Springsteen, or maybe I like heard it in

540
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 6: the background at like CBS. I don't even mean to

541
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 6: be shady, that's for it's like, you know, convenience store

542
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 6: of music. So my question is as a Bruce Nube

543
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 6: who doesn't know his discography, like, if you were to

544
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 6: play a song right now, what song would give me

545
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 6: that feeling that would make me go, oh, now I

546
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 6: get it.

547
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 5: It's a really tough question because he's got such a

548
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 5: big body of music. And the one thing I'll say

549
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 5: before we answer it is that most of the people

550
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 5: we speak to have kind of said that they don't

551
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 5: usually listen to the genre of Bruce Springsteen's music. It's

552
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 5: like Americana or whatever you want of Carey's not really

553
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 5: a genre that a lot of us subjects in the

554
00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 5: investigation would listen to voluntarily usually, but there's some about

555
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 5: the lyrics that pulls them in. Yeah for me, And

556
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 5: this is a song I always recommend to people who

557
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 5: don't know Bruce at all is just and it's an

558
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 5: obvious banger, but it's dancing in the dark because it

559
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 5: was my queer awakening when I was thirteen. It sounds

560
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 5: really upbeat, but when you listen to the lyrics, it's

561
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 5: a song about deep, deep depression. And there's a lyric

562
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 5: in there which is I want to change my clothes,

563
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 5: my hair, my face. And the way in which he

564
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 5: like screens sings that in the song, it's like this frustration.

565
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 5: It feels really tangible, like he's looking at his reflection

566
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 5: and what he's looking at doesn't reflect what he's feeling inside.

567
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 5: And I think a lot of people we've spoken to

568
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 5: have cited that lyric has been something that has been

569
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 5: a mantra for them at some point.

570
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: And I mean, I agree with everything Holly said. I

571
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: will add one other song that we didn't get to

572
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: talk about in the poocast, which is it's a.

573
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 4: Song called I'm Going Down.

574
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: Yes, he does things I'm going down a million times,

575
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,239
Speaker 2: which obviously, if you want to, you can interpret that.

576
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, point taken, and I will Actually I just realized

577
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 6: one of my favorite songs I love the Chromatics cover of.

578
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 4: What's the one I'm on fire.

579
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 6: I'm on fire. I didn't realize that that was a

580
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 6: Bruce song. So now I'm already like feeling my attachment

581
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 6: to Bruce like grow Emily. Okay, very nice.

582
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,239
Speaker 3: And of course, your last checkpoint is being tested as

583
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 3: we speak, isn't that right? Jesse?

584
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 4: Correct?

585
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: Our last checkpoint is can we convince a panel of

586
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: queer people of his queer reckons say this?

587
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 4: Thank you for being here? Only time will.

588
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 3: Tell, Yes, only time will tell. I am so impressed

589
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 3: by the vigor I see in the Panels analysis so far,

590
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 3: you simply must put your brains on ice. After the break,

591
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 3: we're interrogating Jesse and Holly's moral compasses. We're talking ethics. Baby,

592
00:31:58,440 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: that's next.

593
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: Hey, this is Jesse and Holly letting you know about

594
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: another show you might want to listen to.

595
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 5: Did you know that Radiotopia has a reality dating podcast.

596
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 2: It's called hang Up, and it's kind of like a

597
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 2: queer cross between the Bachelor and Lovers Blind.

598
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 5: And seriously, it's a blast.

599
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 4: I'm a long term listener. I've been there from day one.

600
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: It has all of the drama and chaos of a

601
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: queer reality show without any of the bullshit of unethical

602
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: reality tropes.

603
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 5: Hang Ups tagline is no Rings Attached. It's a refreshing

604
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 5: focus on dating and connection rather than marriage. Here's a

605
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 5: little clip about their current season.

606
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 6: Our star TEAMO is forty one years old and recently divorced.

607
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 4: I haven't been on a single date in eighteen months, but.

608
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 6: Now they're looking for someone special and like really hot.

609
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 4: Sex, really hard public sex.

610
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 6: So we set them up with six callers to date

611
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 6: exclusively over the phone.

612
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 3: I feel like I could talk to you for hours.

613
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:06,479
Speaker 4: On hang Up.

614
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 5: You don't just get to eavesdrop on dates. There's also

615
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 5: a series of eliminations, and in the end there's a twist. Well,

616
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 5: the last caller standing choose the star and go on

617
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 5: an all expenses paid vacation together, or choose a cash

618
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 5: prize instead.

619
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 4: Guys, it's high drama.

620
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 5: Also, it's hosted by friend of the pod, Zakia Gibbons.

621
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 5: You might even hear a little something from her in

622
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 5: an upcoming episode.

623
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: The Nie season has just finished, so it's perfect time

624
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: for binging. Ten out of ten would recommend to a

625
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: friend or love or give in queer community, Probably Boyce.

626
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 5: Subscribe to Hang Up Today on your favorite podcast.

627
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 3: Platform, and we're back. This is because the boss belongs

628
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 3: to us. I'm Jane's the only actual queer in stem

629
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 3: to be feature. You're in a seven episode scientific investigation.

630
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: So far, the panel has tested the studies, aims, purpose,

631
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 3: and criteria. Now we're talking epics, baby, Hugh, you can

632
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 3: take the lead on this one. What burning ethical questions

633
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 3: do you have for our researchers.

634
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 7: I'm going to say what everyone's thinking. Are you really

635
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 7: independent minds when it comes to talking about Bruce Springsteen?

636
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 7: Are you really approaching this willing to find out at

637
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 7: the end that actually it's not a quare eye?

638
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 4: No?

639
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 5: No, I didn't go into this with open hearts and minds.

640
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,439
Speaker 5: I went into this fully self centered, trying to prove

641
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 5: a point, but learning about science along the way.

642
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 8: Well.

643
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 7: Also, Holly, in episode four, you says like really clearly

644
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 7: that you that you didn't want to believe that the

645
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 7: album Working on a Dream actually exists. You just pretend

646
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 7: it doesn't exist, which is obviously a good example of that.

647
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 7: But why why put through that album?

648
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 5: Oh wow, this is some gotcha journalism, isn't it Working

649
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 5: on a Dream? In my opinion, Working Our Dream is

650
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 5: one of Bruce Bringsty's worst albums. It came out, I

651
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 5: think it's two thousand and eight or two thousand and nine,

652
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 5: just as Obama was being elected. It's very liberal, wishy, washy,

653
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 5: vague songs about absolutely nothing. At a time when a

654
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 5: political album was needed, he released a very apolitical album

655
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 5: and the songs do not bang. They're just really boring.

656
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 2: I don't think I went into this really willing to

657
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 2: say that Bruce is not a queer icon, but I

658
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: will say that maybe one of the things that we've

659
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: learned along the way is like I think that our

660
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: definition of queer icon is kind of like molded and

661
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 2: changed across the show potentially so it still fits with Bruce.

662
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think like ultimately we were like it

663
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 2: is maybe good to cherry pick or ignore things because

664
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 2: we're creating our own version of Bruce.

665
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 5: And I think also that comes from you know, amazine makers.

666
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 5: So a lot of the scenes that I make our

667
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 5: cut and pass collage of taken the best bits of

668
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 5: things that I like and then making something out of that.

669
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 5: And I've definitely taken that approach to this scientific investigation.

670
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 3: Thank you. We're almost ready to sort of panelists to

671
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 3: deliver their verdicts. Before that, we have some listener questions.

672
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 3: First off, we have Kyle Hi's Kyle here. I'm loving

673
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 3: the show.

674
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 14: Wouldn't really class myself as a Bruce fan, but I've

675
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 14: been really enjoying all of the interviews and research that

676
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 14: you've done. I have a question, do you think that

677
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 14: younger generations do this as much? Because you mentioned that

678
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 14: part of the reason why Quiz find heroes and straight

679
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 14: celebrities is left over from a time and we didn't

680
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 14: have many out celebrities. So I wonder now that younger

681
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 14: generations have more kind of queer and trans heroes and

682
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 14: representations and a cup to do you think they'll be

683
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 14: putting as much effort into queering straight celebrities.

684
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is something that we were kind of

685
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: wondering about in the show. It is like because of

686
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 2: parts of queer history. So in the UK Section twenty eight,

687
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 2: which was a law that prevented the quote promotion of

688
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 2: homosexuality but local authority. So it meant that people didn't

689
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: receive sex education like queer sex education in schools, along

690
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 2: with a lot of other things.

691
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 4: You know, it was real.

692
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: It was a shameful thing to be to be out

693
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: as a queer person. And then other big things in

694
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: queer history, like the AIDS crisis, meant that for reasons

695
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: of people literally not being around because they died or

696
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 2: not being able to come out, there was a real

697
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: kind of lack of queer elders or community leaders in

698
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,879
Speaker 2: the public eye. And so we were wondering whether there

699
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 2: is a kind of like legacy of queer people having

700
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 2: to do this work of like projecting onto straight people

701
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 2: or like finding do you know.

702
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 4: What I mean?

703
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 7: I think as part of like queer culture is to

704
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 7: look for these people and make them into icons. But

705
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 7: I think the difference generationally might be less to do

706
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 7: with our history and more specifically might be to do

707
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 7: with the way we consume media today in social media,

708
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 7: that it's much harder to have that sort of old

709
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 7: fashioned type of relationship with an icon. Why you can

710
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 7: project other stuff on them in a way that I

711
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 7: don't know in the say, in the fifties and sixties

712
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 7: you could have done with Judy Garland, that you could

713
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 7: there's still sort of little information that you could make

714
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 7: up the back story, so you identified strongly with her,

715
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 7: And it's much harder for artists and musicians today to

716
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 7: be able to maintain that distance from their fans enough

717
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 7: that they can become a blank slate for people to

718
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 7: project their emotions onto. And so you either have one way,

719
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 7: which is the sworn like Lona del Rey, where you

720
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 7: can still do that because she keeps so much hidden

721
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 7: and it's just a performance she's doing as particular personality,

722
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 7: or you go like the other way, which is like

723
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 7: like Azilah Banks, who's just like constantly saying stuff, and

724
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 7: then gay people, quiet people can sort of really hyper

725
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 7: ironically take this person who says like the most outrageously

726
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 7: like homophobic and transfer a bit things and be like yes, yeah,

727
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 7: you're you're our hero and like jump on the opposite

728
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 7: side of that. But it's hard for someone it's just

729
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 7: like quite middle of the road as an artist to

730
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 7: let them to become an icon these days because the

731
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 7: sort of way we form is parasocial relations is totally

732
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 7: changed by social media, and it's just the share quantity

733
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 7: of access that we get to famous people's lives.

734
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 6: You know, something I've been thinking about in this highly

735
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 6: academic panel is it's kind of reminding me of the

736
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 6: discourse around baby girl, you know, which I feel like

737
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 6: is a gen Z term that you know, was birthed

738
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 6: out of TikTok and then gen Z's on there, you know,

739
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 6: calling street cysts celebrities baby girl. So just thinking about that,

740
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 6: I just feel like, yes, I do think that there

741
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 6: is a generational element where just like out of the

742
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 6: picking for slims, so you know, you choose, you choose

743
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 6: on You're like, Okay, I'm gonna make you gay, I'm

744
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 6: gonna make you queer, and then you kind of come

745
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 6: up with this whole backstory and you know, you kind

746
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 6: of project your own desires and needs to be and

747
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 6: wants to be seen. And now you know there's a

748
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 6: lot more out and queer celebrities and representation, and yet

749
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 6: you know, we're still seeing people queer people that aren't queer,

750
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 6: you know, as seen in this rise of like you know,

751
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 6: this baby girl discourse. I feel like that's just something

752
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 6: us queers love to do, you know what I mean,

753
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 6: Because it's both emotionally and mentally and spiritually important to

754
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 6: see ourselves and other people. But it's also fun to

755
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 6: feel like you're kind of just inviting someone to your party.

756
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 4: You know, Yeah, totally I always say.

757
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: There's something that we talk about in episode six, which

758
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 2: is like, if you like zoom out from picking specific

759
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: you know, specific straight people to make into queer icons.

760
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,959
Speaker 2: There's something about like claiming mainstream culture as our own,

761
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: like putting a steak into mainstream culture that isn't necessarily

762
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 2: made for marginalized people, including queer people, and being like yeah,

763
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: like I guess you want to entertain straits, but we're

764
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 2: here too, and like we like this too, or like

765
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 2: we find our own meanings from this too, and I

766
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: think there's something maybe like powerful about that.

767
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 15: Thanks everyone. Next up, we have a question from Kathleen

768
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 15: h Halle and Jesse. It's Kathleen here in Yorkshire.

769
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,479
Speaker 16: I am living the show so far and I've heard

770
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 16: what you have to say. I just don't know if

771
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 16: I see Booth as a queer icon. I feel like

772
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 16: we see the checkshire. We've all got daddy issues and

773
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 16: that's all we need discuss.

774
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 3: Joelle, what do you think?

775
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean I think possibly for me, I was

776
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 9: trying to figure out why am I not persuaded by

777
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 9: this because I think there is a there's a difference

778
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 9: in my head between the iconic queer icon and a

779
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 9: queer a hero you know, So an icon is it's product.

780
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 8: So what's a religious product to our projections? You know,

781
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 8: this kind of prophecy you are, you have a distance

782
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 8: from them, so you're able to project, you know, with

783
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 8: absolute clarity and meaning everything you're looking for. Whereas a

784
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 8: queer as somebody's actually doing something positive for us, there's

785
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 8: actually a politically engaged has taken on great struggles at

786
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 8: some time. So I don't know, daddy issues we certainly

787
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 8: will do.

788
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's a good point. I think we

789
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 5: all do have daddy issues, and I think that should

790
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 5: be acknowledged as part of this investigation.

791
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 2: But I think, like I would say that that's like

792
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: what what Cathleen said is potentially an argument for Bruce

793
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 2: being a queer icon in that I'm like, yeah, like

794
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 2: we have reasons why we need to make new daddies,

795
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 2: and like maybe that's okay, Like maybe maybe he's someone

796
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 2: who we can fill in those gaps for.

797
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 8: Which is really really interesting this fiction between a gay

798
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 8: icon and a queer ypo. I thought like queer would

799
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 8: be more, it would queer things more, you know, So

800
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 8: it challenges these kind of heats of normative ideologies and

801
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 8: ideas and so me even the names or boss and

802
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 8: exemplifies all of those things. So what what do you

803
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:32,879
Speaker 8: think the difference is between the two?

804
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,919
Speaker 2: What is the sort of Yeah, something we talked about

805
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: a bit in the show is like who is choosing

806
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 2: the queer icons, because like gay icons are traditionally worshiped

807
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: by like cisc men potentially.

808
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 4: And tend to be straight women.

809
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 2: We think that there is a longer history of queering

810
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 2: straight women than it is of queering straight men, and

811
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: that might be because of women or trans masculine people

812
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 2: or like people within that part of queer culture. They

813
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 2: might relate, for example, to Bruce's masculinity in a different

814
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: way that maybe a gay man might really relate to

815
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 2: Bruce's masculinity. So we're wondering whether this is like a

816
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 2: new thing that we are pioneering.

817
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 4: The dyke for a nice Yeah.

818
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 8: Yeah.

819
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 5: The fans that we spoke to and the experts that

820
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 5: we spoke to in the show kind of pointed towards

821
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 5: there being mostly dykes trans masque fans that were finding

822
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 5: something in Bruce. It wasn't the same thing, but it

823
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 5: was finding something in Bruce, and we thought that is

824
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 5: worth investigating.

825
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, it really is.

826
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: So it might feel affronting to be like, WHOA A

827
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: cis straight white man. He doesn't deserve another pedestal. But

828
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 2: maybe this is like a new thing that we've discovered

829
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 2: and it's not about like glorifying him. It's about like

830
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: celebrating Dyke and like adjacent culture question mark.

831
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 3: Lastly, we have a question from Alison.

832
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 4: Hello, this is Alison here.

833
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 17: So I'm wondering if trying to ask Bruce himself was

834
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 17: ever part of your plan or do you feel like

835
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 17: he doesn't get to weigh in on this even if

836
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 17: you could.

837
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 5: Talk to him.

838
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 17: And I'm also wondering, if you did have the chance

839
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 17: to talk to Bruce, you're.

840
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 4: Hanging out in the same room, what would you ask him.

841
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 5: I've said this quite a few times during the podcast

842
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,439
Speaker 5: that I'm actually just really not interested in the real

843
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 5: Bruce Springsteen. I love you, Bruce, I really do, but

844
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 5: I do think that I don't need to know his

845
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 5: opinions or anything. I don't need to actually meet him

846
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 5: or speak to him, because the version I've got of

847
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 5: Bruce in my head is so much more interesting and

848
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 5: so much more important to me than the real Bruce

849
00:45:58,960 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 5: Springsteen ever.

850
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 2: Could Yeah, I think I feel quite similarly. I think

851
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 2: we went into this project and we were just like

852
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,720
Speaker 2: Brice doesn't care about us, Like we're just two queer

853
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 2: people making a little podcast. There are so many pot

854
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: us about him because he's such a famous musician. If

855
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: he did hear the show, I guess I would feel

856
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 2: disappointed if he used it to gain the Pink Pound, Like,

857
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: I don't want him to be like, oh sick, I've

858
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 2: got queer fans now, I'm gonna like release a line.

859
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 4: Of T shirts that say love is Love, Love is

860
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 4: Love yet exactly.

861
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: So, I think there's something nice about the fact that

862
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 2: he's like a slightly unobtainable figure in our lives in it. Yeah,

863
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 2: it's less about pleasing him or getting him on side

864
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 2: and more about us being like, yeah.

865
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not about him, us the most important people.

866
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 2: It's really about us, guys. That's what we're trying to

867
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 2: communicate to you.

868
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,919
Speaker 3: Jesse and Holly. This is your last chance to share

869
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,959
Speaker 3: closing faults, feelings, or final bits of evidence with the pattern.

870
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 5: So I have one last bit of evidence from our

871
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 5: dossier to play now for the panel.

872
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 2: Our executive producer Jasmine J. T. Green interviewing Alex or

873
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 2: talk Bazar, who wrote the music for the series. So

874
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 2: it's a conversation between the two of them, and the

875
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,720
Speaker 2: first voice you hear is Alex's voice.

876
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 9: Right.

877
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,720
Speaker 18: I've been thinking a lot about this whole quest for

878
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 18: Bruce as queer icon. Bruce isn't my queer icon. That

879
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 18: doesn't mean that Bruce can't be a queer icon. There's

880
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 18: a lot of like white women in the halls of

881
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 18: queer iconography, and who's picking those icons?

882
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 8: Right?

883
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 18: It's been a lot of like the male.

884
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 19: Gaze, See what you did there?

885
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 18: So have Bruce right? Like, Bruce isn't for me, But

886
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,760
Speaker 18: because Bruce brusted for this concept that I was running

887
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 18: from already that other people were running two. I was

888
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 18: living in this idea of macho that was kind of

889
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 18: like held on a pedestal, and Bruce was occupying a

890
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,879
Speaker 18: space that was manly but not overly mocho, and it's

891
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 18: felt like kind of attainable. But I think also for

892
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 18: me growing up a boy in New Jersey, it was

893
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 18: sort of like dangerously alluring that you could just you

894
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 18: could just be like Bruce and you could just keep

895
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 18: guying out. As far as I understand, before this project,

896
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 18: Bruce Springsteen the Boss was not a part of your life.

897
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 19: Absolutely not.

898
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 18: Okay, So now fast forward to you're suddenly helping make

899
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 18: a podcast about Bruce, and you're presumably listening to a

900
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 18: lot of Bruce.

901
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 19: Now, so it's funny, like now my streaming algorithm is

902
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 19: starting to recommend Bruce songs and I'm like, this a

903
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 19: little man, This a little man got some.

904
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 4: I get it.

905
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 19: I absolutely get it. I absolutely get it. I'm like,

906
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 19: I'm like crying thinking about it, like it's they're bops.

907
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 19: They're absolutely bops, I must say, and like they contain

908
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 19: like a different context to me.

909
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 18: Now, so you just said, I guess that you you

910
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 18: kind of implicitly recognized Bruce as queer icon. Do you

911
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 18: do you think that Bruce is a queer icon?

912
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 19: I am thoroughly convinced that he is, in fact a

913
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 19: queer icon. I think I feel in the same way

914
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 19: for you as in, like, he's not my queer icon,

915
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 19: but there are things that I can recognize.

916
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 3: Does the panel accept these additional pieces of evidence?

917
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I do.

918
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 8: I'm happy to accept this evidence. You know, it's the

919
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 8: last minute the court will enter the evidence.

920
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 3: Perfect. The serious and legitimate peer review panel have heard

921
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 3: all of Jesse and Holly's evidence, and it is now

922
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 3: their time to share if they agree that Bruce Springsteen

923
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 3: is a queer icon. That's after the break, we are back.

924
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 3: I'm James Cunningham, and this is because the boss belongs

925
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 3: to us. Seeing if this isn't actually a scientific study,

926
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 3: I don't have to be a neutral adjudicator, so I'm

927
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 3: going to have my say too. I think that queerness

928
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 3: is a personal expression of oneself and as a bucket,

929
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 3: it's of your own filling and is intensely individual. And

930
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 3: so I think if you know, this kind of Americana

931
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 3: persona stands as an icon for people who are oppressed

932
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 3: and marginalized and you know, trying to piece their way

933
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 3: out of themselves to something greater than like where are

934
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 3: we to stop it? And I also think that anybody

935
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,879
Speaker 3: who can look that good in an ecker chief, some

936
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 3: cut off down them jacket and some tight tight jeans,

937
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 3: you know, deserves definitely a point on the board too.

938
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting that you describe queenness is like

939
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 2: there is like a very kind of individual version to

940
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 2: everyone's definition of queerness. And there's a very individual listic

941
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: thing around like queer icons and putting people on these pedestals.

942
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 2: But something that Holly and I have learned, I guess

943
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 2: across the series is also like, ultimately, the best thing

944
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 2: that happened that from all of Bruce Springsteen is that

945
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 2: we found community through that, Like we've found people and

946
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,919
Speaker 2: the things that we care about ultimately, like the things

947
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 2: that bring us together.

948
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 3: And so it's time for our queer icon experts final

949
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 3: decision on whether Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. So

950
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 3: the panel you may answer yes or no. You may

951
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 3: also answer yes, but with some suggest revisions to the

952
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 3: study Zekia Gibbons.

953
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 6: So you know, like I said, I still have yet

954
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:12,720
Speaker 6: to really listen to a Bruce song, so I feel

955
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 6: like I cannot claim him as my queer icon. But

956
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:20,839
Speaker 6: you know, after you know, having listened to the show,

957
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 6: after listening to y'all's arguments, hearing you know, other people's

958
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 6: experiences and views on Bruce, I can't deny other people's feelings.

959
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 6: If he is a queer icon to them, then he is.

960
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 6: But I also just listen to it, I'm like, oh,

961
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 6: these arguments are landing for me like I see it.

962
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 6: But does he feel like a queer icon to me?

963
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 6: Not yet, because I need to listen to his music.

964
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 6: But like I said before, he is giving baby Girl,

965
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 6: so he he upgraded. He upgraded from me having zero

966
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 6: opinions on him to being like, oh my god, Bruce

967
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 6: is baby Girl, like I buck with them, and so

968
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 6: check in with me in a few months after I've

969
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 6: listened to some songs, and I'll probably be standing him

970
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 6: as a queer icon as well.

971
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 3: You let me.

972
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 7: It's funny because I came into this thinking, no, he's

973
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 7: not a queer icon, and I say that as a

974
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 7: queer fan. But then as I've listened to the evidence,

975
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 7: there's clearly everything's there. He is camp, but then people

976
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 7: who love his camp love it with an intensity and

977
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 7: a sincerity that goes far beyond, which I think is

978
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 7: like the main point that makes a queer icon. And

979
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 7: he does ruefully underdog even if he himself is a millionaire,

980
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 7: and he can dance to his music and talk to

981
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 7: his music. So I've checked on my minds. I think that

982
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 7: he is a queer icon, although he's still not my

983
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 7: queer icon. I'm just a queer fan. But I also

984
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 7: think that Joel was right Earlies. This isn't really a

985
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 7: subject to scientific study. This is a matter of theology.

986
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 7: You either believe in the Boss or you don't. No

987
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 7: amount of sort of persuasive argument can change you one

988
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 7: word the other. Feed it in your heart or you

989
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 7: don't fit it in your heart. We don't really need

990
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 7: a scientists or physicists for this. You lead up a priest.

991
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: What I'm hearing from you, h is that we've successfully

992
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 2: managed to get us a gear into the cult.

993
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 6: I would say I in terms of cult, I have

994
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 6: like one arm in the sleeve of the cult cloak.

995
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 6: I pad with some music. I will probably slip my

996
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 6: other arm in and I'll be fully darning the Bruce

997
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 6: Bringsen cult cloak.

998
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 5: Next time we see you, you're going to be in

999
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:33,720
Speaker 5: that denim cloak.

1000
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 6: Yes, then club, Now that I know it's Denham, maybe

1001
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 6: I'll yeah, I'll wear it even sooner it would be Denham.

1002
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 7: Everyone wants to start somewhere.

1003
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 3: You can't start a fire.

1004
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 5: Oh amen to that.

1005
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 3: And finally, Joel Taylor, it really.

1006
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 13: Really really just agreeing with everything you were you were suggesting.

1007
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:10,320
Speaker 13: But h, Yes, the revision. I accept that.

1008
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 8: Is your queer. Yes, he's your queer, not mine.

1009
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 4: Thank you so so much, Bun.

1010
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 5: That was so amazing and not as scary as I

1011
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 5: thought it was going to be.

1012
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 4: That was so good.

1013
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 5: Oh man, I think I'm still shaking. I was really scared.

1014
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 5: I was really nervous. That felt that felt terrifying.

1015
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, we I truly.

1016
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 2: I kept being like we did this to ourselves, like

1017
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 2: we we chose to be tested in this world.

1018
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 5: But now I'm thinking maybe I should do a pH d.

1019
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 4: Maybe that's next. It will make a bean, I really thought.

1020
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,760
Speaker 5: I mean Joelle, who knew at the last moment. Actually,

1021
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 5: to be fair, I think all of them. Up until

1022
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 5: about halfway through, I thought.

1023
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 4: There's no chance.

1024
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are so many people that run from that

1025
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:19,760
Speaker 5: element of masculinity, like everything that Bruce represents. Why would

1026
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 5: we want to them celebrate that?

1027
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 2: But I thought it was so beautiful what Alex said

1028
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 2: about like that is a thing in that final bit

1029
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 2: of evidence of being like this, like new and playful relationships.

1030
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 2: Mascultee is something that some queer people run towards and

1031
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 2: some people are running from, and that just shows like

1032
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 2: simply whoops, you can't imaginize queer people.

1033
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 5: But Joelle, like very very early on, just like Hammered

1034
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 5: does with you know, should we be doing this, like

1035
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 5: why not members of our own queer community? What's difference

1036
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 5: between queer icons and gacons? And we went through that

1037
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 5: on the depression bench in episode four. We really interrogated

1038
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 5: our feelings on that. But of course that was something

1039
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 5: that Joel's going to question as all totally because it

1040
00:56:58,239 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 5: needs to be asked. I think if anybody else did

1041
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 5: this again, you have to ask those questions. And also

1042
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 5: you have to feel pretty shit about it.

1043
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 3: You just have to.

1044
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 5: Feel really anxious and depressed about it.

1045
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you everyone so much for listening to because

1046
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 2: the bus belongs to us.

1047
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 4: You heard it here first.

1048
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 5: Bruce Brinstein is a queer icon because he's our queer icon. Yeah,

1049
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 5: so anyway, to be honest, we just did this because

1050
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 5: we love Bruce and we love to love things too much.

1051
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 2: This has allowed us to connect to so many queer

1052
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 2: Bruce fans. There's so many of us out there slowly

1053
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 2: infiltrating the queer community with our Bruce loving ways.

1054
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 5: And regardless of what evidence we have, Bruce just is

1055
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 5: our queer icon, at least for now, because he's important

1056
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 5: to us and.

1057
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 4: Now it's time to say goodbye. Holly.

1058
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 2: Climbing is a town full pleasers, and we're pulling out

1059
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 2: of here.

1060
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 4: To win.

1061
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 5: Because the boss belongs to us. Is a production of

1062
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 5: Malton Hart and iHeart Podcasts. We're hosted by Jesse Lawson

1063
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 5: and Holly Cassio.

1064
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 2: The series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and

1065
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 2: created by Jesse Lawson.

1066
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 5: This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson,

1067
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 5: with production assistants by Tess Hazel. Michelle maclum is our

1068
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 5: mix engineer.

1069
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 2: Our original music and theme is by Talk Bazaar at

1070
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 2: Talk v A z A R Underscore. Our show art

1071
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 2: was designed and illustrated by Holly Cassio at Holly c

1072
00:58:58,480 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 2: A s i O.

1073
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 5: Executive producer from Malton Hart is Jasmine J. T.

1074
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 15: Green.

1075
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 5: Our executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Lindy Hoffman.

1076
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 2: A reminder that our friends have released six absolutely stunning

1077
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 2: Bruce covers to celebrate the series, Fight Milk, The Sheridans,

1078
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 2: coy O, Day, mus Ghost, Daskinsey four and Command Jasmine.

1079
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 2: There's a link in our show notes for the Queer

1080
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 2: Springsteen playlist listen there.

1081
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for the special people who've supported

1082
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 5: us while making the series. Lauren Passel, Arlie Ablinton, James Cunningham,

1083
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 5: Fen Williams, Kyle Gibbons, Beth Elden, Kerr, Oriel Wiles, Alana

1084
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 5: Cumbier for inspiring our name and bringing us.

1085
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 2: Together, Phil Roberts for buying me my first gay brucene.

1086
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 5: And all of our friends and family who have put

1087
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 5: up with us obsessively talking about Bruce forever and listen

1088
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 5: to so much springs in against their will. It's not

1089
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 5: going to stop, guys, just because the podcast's.

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Speaker 3: Over and when more.

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00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 2: Little shout out to the val Halla Suite, which is

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00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 2: a free plugin for audio nerdes and has been used

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00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 2: so much throughout the series. On my website, I have

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01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 2: a list of resources for people interested in getting into audio.

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01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 4: I'll link it in the show notes.

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Speaker 5: For more Queer Bruce content from us, check out my

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01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 5: scenes at Colschmall dot com and follow Drag King Butch

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01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 5: Sprinksteen at Butch Sprinksteen Underscore Drag.

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Speaker 2: I'm at Jesse lu Dawson and Holly is at Holly

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01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 2: Cassio on socials stay in touch.

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01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 4: You've not heard the last from us. Bye bye bye