1
00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:02,280
Speaker 1: There could have got me.

2
00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,000
Speaker 2: I was interviewing one person in the Kentucky Fried Chicken

3
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,560
Speaker 2: in the city we were being watched. There were people

4
00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,520
Speaker 2: close by from the government, and they actually came over

5
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,280
Speaker 2: and approached us. So under those circumstances, it's really difficult

6
00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,160
Speaker 2: to drill down and get people to be frank about

7
00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:18,920
Speaker 2: what's going on.

8
00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,439
Speaker 1: Bloomberg reporter Colin Murphy recently traveled to Hoogong. It's a

9
00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,800
Speaker 1: remote coal town in northeastern China that found itself under

10
00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,680
Speaker 1: a mountain of debt and was forced to undergo an

11
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 1: unprecedented financial restructuring. The fiscal squeeze has made life for

12
00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,880
Speaker 1: many there even harder, and Hoogung is not alone. Other

13
00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,840
Speaker 1: heavily indebted cities in China may soon follow, and that

14
00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,920
Speaker 1: threatens to become a drag on the world's second largest

15
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,680
Speaker 1: economy for years to come. It could also have wider

16
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:55,480
Speaker 1: repercussions beyond China's borders. Here's Bloomberg's James Mager.

17
00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,400
Speaker 3: If you're a commodity exporting country like Brazil or Australia,

18
00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,880
Speaker 3: or if you're or Southeast Asian nation that's looking to

19
00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,400
Speaker 3: move up the value chain by selling manufactured goods to China.

20
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,479
Speaker 3: If Chinese people are buying less of those goods, that's

21
00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,920
Speaker 3: less income for you, So there's less growth for the

22
00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,600
Speaker 3: whole world basically, So the first way that transmits through

23
00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,320
Speaker 3: is to slower growth globally.

24
00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,600
Speaker 1: I'm Wescasilva today on the Big Take. Calum and James

25
00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,480
Speaker 1: join me from Beijing to explain why the financial struggles

26
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:38,120
Speaker 1: of one town point to larger troubles for China.

27
00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,000
Speaker 2: Hargan is a small city by Chinese standards. It has

28
00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,400
Speaker 2: a population of about one million their give or take,

29
00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,400
Speaker 2: and it's located in the very northeast corner of China,

30
00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,200
Speaker 2: in a province called halong Jiang, which is one of

31
00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,960
Speaker 2: the coldest corners of the country. The town itself is

32
00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,600
Speaker 2: a stone's throat away from the Russian border, and it's

33
00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,800
Speaker 2: known for its history of coal mining. It's a coal

34
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,320
Speaker 2: town and at one point in its history it was

35
00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,120
Speaker 2: quite prosperous as a result of this industry. But over

36
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,840
Speaker 2: the years that industry has been in decline and the

37
00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:19,240
Speaker 2: revenues coming from coal have also been on the way down.

38
00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,920
Speaker 2: The population has been declining over the past decade. The

39
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,839
Speaker 2: city is looking for ways to try to find new

40
00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,960
Speaker 2: sources of economic growth. What it's looking to these days

41
00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,480
Speaker 2: is more like graphite, which is a material that's used

42
00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,600
Speaker 2: extensively in things, for example, like electric vehicles. And it's

43
00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,760
Speaker 2: also trying to tap tourism, but its location in a

44
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,600
Speaker 2: very remote coal part of China, it doesn't really make

45
00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 2: it it all year round tourist destination, so that's quite

46
00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,839
Speaker 2: a challenge. Another thing that Hagang is famous for more

47
00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,920
Speaker 2: recently is that unlike developed cities in China such as

48
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,920
Speaker 2: Beijing and Shanghai, the property prices in hagan are actually

49
00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,560
Speaker 2: very very cheap, so cheap that they have begun to

50
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,640
Speaker 2: attract people from outside. So these are young people who

51
00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:09,119
Speaker 2: basically feel overstressed or unable to achieve the so called

52
00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,799
Speaker 2: China dream in the terms of buying their own apartment,

53
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,560
Speaker 2: and they're looking to move to places like Hogong where

54
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,480
Speaker 2: they can pick up fairly decent apartment for almost next

55
00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,760
Speaker 2: to nothing. This debt issue facing a place like Hogong

56
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,520
Speaker 2: is something that the Chinese government and the local governments

57
00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,359
Speaker 2: are certainly not proud of and not something that they

58
00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,440
Speaker 2: want to broadcast to the world. For example, when we

59
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,480
Speaker 2: turned up to ho Gong after flying from Beijing. Basically,

60
00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,360
Speaker 2: we were greeted by local officials, a combination of propaganda

61
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,400
Speaker 2: officials and also security officials. I should say we did

62
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,560
Speaker 2: not tell them we were going there, but nonetheless they

63
00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,840
Speaker 2: knew that we were coming, and they were determined to

64
00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,400
Speaker 2: do everything they could to influence or at least hinder

65
00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,760
Speaker 2: our reporting. So it was quite difficult to do simple

66
00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 2: things like voxpop. But when we did manage to eventually

67
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,040
Speaker 2: speak to some of the local people, what we found

68
00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,240
Speaker 2: was a sort of obviously a caution about talking about this,

69
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,520
Speaker 2: and beneath the surface of sort of normality, there definitely

70
00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,280
Speaker 2: was concerns being expressed by all sorts of people that

71
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,680
Speaker 2: we interviewed. So, for example, street cleaners had experienced delays

72
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,880
Speaker 2: to their salaries of up to two months. One hospital

73
00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,960
Speaker 2: worker that we spoke to had her contract, which was

74
00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,680
Speaker 2: directly with the hospital, unilaterally changed, and now she ends

75
00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,600
Speaker 2: up working for our third party company on a salary

76
00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:36,359
Speaker 2: that's not as optimal or as good as it was before.

77
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,320
Speaker 4: We used to get ten yuan extra for working on

78
00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,440
Speaker 4: public holidays such as the New Year's Day. Now, since

79
00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,040
Speaker 4: we're employed by the property management company, we get nothing.

80
00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,800
Speaker 4: Of course, I'm upset about the situation. How can I

81
00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:52,800
Speaker 4: feel good about this?

82
00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,360
Speaker 2: Taxi drivers were complaining about morphines as the government tries

83
00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,279
Speaker 2: to find new ways to increase their revenue, and teachers

84
00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,800
Speaker 2: were worried about job cuts. So I would say, on

85
00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,520
Speaker 2: the surface, it looked like a normal sort of small

86
00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,400
Speaker 2: city in the remote corner of China. But when we

87
00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 2: talk to people and dug down a little bit, it

88
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,839
Speaker 2: was clear that people were at least concerned about how

89
00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,560
Speaker 2: life in the city is getting harder and economically more

90
00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:20,520
Speaker 2: difficult for them.

91
00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:26,320
Speaker 1: James's common describes the financial economic situation is pretty stressed

92
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:31,000
Speaker 1: and they had to undergo unprecedented financial restructuring. Can you

93
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,560
Speaker 1: describe exactly why that happened and where things are now?

94
00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,160
Speaker 3: So the city is faced to the number of economic

95
00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 3: problems some of that has called them described. There are

96
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,000
Speaker 3: many old coal towns around the world, in the US

97
00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,200
Speaker 3: and UK and Europe and other places where the call

98
00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,960
Speaker 3: is dried up and there's no jobs anymore, and I

99
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,080
Speaker 3: think people can imagine what that it's like, and it's

100
00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 3: the same in China. So you're seeing in Hogang the

101
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,440
Speaker 3: population fell by about sixteen percent between twenty ten and

102
00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,520
Speaker 3: twenty twenty. The population of the broader province of Heilongjong

103
00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,600
Speaker 3: has also fell about that same amount. So the whole

104
00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,160
Speaker 3: province of Heilongjong lost about six and a half million

105
00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,800
Speaker 3: people in that ten year period, which is more than

106
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,919
Speaker 3: the population of most US states. That's people dying or

107
00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,520
Speaker 3: moving to warmer climates further south where there are better jobs.

108
00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,039
Speaker 3: So you're seeing an erosion of jobs. You're seeing an

109
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,200
Speaker 3: erosion of the tax base because there are less people

110
00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,080
Speaker 3: to pay taxes. There are fewer businesses as coal mines

111
00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,440
Speaker 3: closed down, and so the economy of the city of

112
00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,880
Speaker 3: Hgang itself peaked in twenty twelve. It never achieved that

113
00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,560
Speaker 3: level that reached in twenty twelve again until twenty twenty two,

114
00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,080
Speaker 3: and that was only because of the big spike and

115
00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,360
Speaker 3: call prices that we saw last year because of the

116
00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,440
Speaker 3: Russian invasion of Ukraine. So you're looking at a city

117
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,080
Speaker 3: that has a falling population, a stagnating economy, but the

118
00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,039
Speaker 3: debt levels of the city have been rising rapidly over

119
00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,599
Speaker 3: this time as the local government has tried to spend

120
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,280
Speaker 3: its way out of these economic problems. We don't have

121
00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,359
Speaker 3: full data, but it seems like the official debt of

122
00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,520
Speaker 3: the government does more than an increase fivefold between twenty

123
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,360
Speaker 3: fifteen and twenty twenty two. So the government is facing

124
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,839
Speaker 3: this massive debt burden, but its population is shrinking, its

125
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,520
Speaker 3: tax base is shrinking, and it's struggling to pay for

126
00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,000
Speaker 3: the services that it's meant to provide and also to

127
00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 3: pay for the interest payments and the repayments of the

128
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 3: debt that it does.

129
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,720
Speaker 1: And James, this is a problem obviously for the people

130
00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,320
Speaker 1: who live in this city in China, but it's also

131
00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,400
Speaker 1: a problem for China more broadly. As you write, can

132
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,600
Speaker 1: you explain why that is so?

133
00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,720
Speaker 3: The fiscal restructuring in Hrgang is a problem for the

134
00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,760
Speaker 3: local economy. For example, local banks and Halong Jungle that

135
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,160
Speaker 3: have lent money to the city or have bought the

136
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,520
Speaker 3: bonds that the city is solved from, the local government

137
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,920
Speaker 3: financing vehicles to pay for various different kinds of projects

138
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,239
Speaker 3: and things that the city is doing. The bigger problem

139
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,400
Speaker 3: for the province and for China is that this is

140
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,760
Speaker 3: an isolated case. This is not just one city which

141
00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,320
Speaker 3: is in this situation. There are many cities that are

142
00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,280
Speaker 3: in a similar situation of her Gang. Maybe they're not

143
00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,440
Speaker 3: quite as extreme. This situation is not quite as bad

144
00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,760
Speaker 3: as it is in this place. But as I said,

145
00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,520
Speaker 3: the population of halong Young shrunk by six point five

146
00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,200
Speaker 3: million people in ten years. There are many other cities

147
00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,200
Speaker 3: in the Northeast that are facing this similar problem of

148
00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,480
Speaker 3: a shrinking population decreasing number of jobs. There are many

149
00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,560
Speaker 3: many coal towns and steel towns across the northeast. It's

150
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,800
Speaker 3: China's rust belt, and those industries are stagnating and going away.

151
00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,560
Speaker 3: So one problem that these growing debt problems that are

152
00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,200
Speaker 3: popping up in places around China in Helong Jog, as

153
00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,120
Speaker 3: we saw in Hokong in Guejo in the south of

154
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,880
Speaker 3: the country as well, which is also facing an unsustainable

155
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,559
Speaker 3: debt situation, is that it makes it much much harder

156
00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,920
Speaker 3: for the government in Beijing to achieve what it's set out.

157
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,240
Speaker 3: Is it kind of making financial goals for the next

158
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,600
Speaker 3: few years. President y Jinping has set a goal of

159
00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 3: doubling the size of the economy by twenty thirty five.

160
00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,200
Speaker 3: They also have another goal of what they call common prosperity,

161
00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,319
Speaker 3: which in a western center is basically just increasing income equality.

162
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,680
Speaker 3: So instead of having very rich provinces like Shanghai or

163
00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,320
Speaker 3: Guangdong and then very poor provinces like Halong, jog A, Gueijo.

164
00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,120
Speaker 3: The government wants to equalize income across the country. The

165
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,280
Speaker 3: problem is that a lot of these improveraiyed places are

166
00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,040
Speaker 3: also very heavily indebted, as we saw in her Gung,

167
00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,480
Speaker 3: and someone has to deal with those debt problems which

168
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,880
Speaker 3: are holding the economy backs. If those debt problems become

169
00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 3: harder and harder and larger and larger to deal with,

170
00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,240
Speaker 3: that's going to affect growth in those regional economies or

171
00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,920
Speaker 3: frential economies, and that's going to make it much much

172
00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,280
Speaker 3: harder for the central government to achieve both the doubling

173
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,720
Speaker 3: of the size of the economy, but also harder to

174
00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 3: achieve this income equality that they're aiming for.

175
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,640
Speaker 1: Calum James Head talked about comment prosperity. This goal of

176
00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,600
Speaker 1: Jenna how is common prosperity defined?

177
00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,880
Speaker 2: Definitions here tend to be fluid at the best, and

178
00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,640
Speaker 2: implementation of these policies not very obvious at times. But

179
00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,680
Speaker 2: I think what basically underlines or lies underneath this common

180
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,319
Speaker 2: prosperity push is the belief by the President cheating Pin

181
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,200
Speaker 2: that there were inequalities in the economy. So on the

182
00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,000
Speaker 2: one hand, we had these entrepreneurs and business people from

183
00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,600
Speaker 2: the private sector who making a fortune. The city's Beijing

184
00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:08,839
Speaker 2: Shanghai lifestyle was through the roof. People were expending excessively

185
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,360
Speaker 2: on the education of their children, both during the school

186
00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,080
Speaker 2: day but also in the after hours, sending them to

187
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,720
Speaker 2: extra tuition classes, very very costly, all in order to

188
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,280
Speaker 2: get them and give them a step up in the

189
00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,719
Speaker 2: China society for when they graduate go to university. So

190
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 2: it was emerging inequalities were becoming quite visible, and that

191
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,839
Speaker 2: obviously goes against what the Party would hope to stand

192
00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,640
Speaker 2: for in terms of a more equal society. So it

193
00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,160
Speaker 2: was a step by sea to try to address that,

194
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,920
Speaker 2: and of course we saw that play out in a

195
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,160
Speaker 2: couple of ways. There was the crackdown on tech after

196
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,040
Speaker 2: our schooling industry was basically shut down. All of these

197
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,400
Speaker 2: were kind of negative steps to maybe dial back a

198
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,280
Speaker 2: little bit some of the excesses. And then in parallel

199
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,000
Speaker 2: it goes hand in hand maybe with his strategy of

200
00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,600
Speaker 2: poverty alleviation, whereby the government is trying outreach to these

201
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,800
Speaker 2: poorer communities around the country, especially rural ones, and introducing

202
00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:11,199
Speaker 2: plans and programs that are designed to increase their ability

203
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,880
Speaker 2: to participate in the modern Chinese economy. So it's kind

204
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,520
Speaker 2: of like a combination of dialing back to the excesses

205
00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,400
Speaker 2: of the rich while giving the poor a helping hand

206
00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 2: with the aim of narrowing that gap in terms of

207
00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:24,840
Speaker 2: income equality.

208
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,240
Speaker 1: When you spoke to people in Hugong, what do they

209
00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:34,760
Speaker 1: say about this goal of common prosperity, about Ji's promise

210
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:36,800
Speaker 1: for everyone to kind of share in the wealth.

211
00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,960
Speaker 2: You'll find here that there's a lot of slogans that

212
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,480
Speaker 2: take place at the macro level, and you'll see she

213
00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,600
Speaker 2: talking about this, and you'll see the party issuing statements

214
00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:47,760
Speaker 2: about this. But actually, when you talk to people on

215
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,480
Speaker 2: the street, they're not going to come and say, oh,

216
00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,320
Speaker 2: I'm very excited about She's common prosperity. Basically, they're more

217
00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 2: focused on their day to day what is it that

218
00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,120
Speaker 2: the government is doing to help them or to assist

219
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 2: them in making money, but also, you know, the education

220
00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,240
Speaker 2: and job opportunities for their children going forward. So on

221
00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,719
Speaker 2: that note, you know, we did talk to people who

222
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:14,079
Speaker 2: were trying to operate small businesses, and there's a sense

223
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,960
Speaker 2: that the government is looking for more stringently applying restrictions,

224
00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,000
Speaker 2: charging fees and fines things that are actually in a

225
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,160
Speaker 2: way impeding their ability to do business. So that's one

226
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,559
Speaker 2: of the more practical implications on the ground. But another

227
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,240
Speaker 2: thing that was quite surprising, and again we need to

228
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,640
Speaker 2: be mindful that these interviews are sometimes conducted in less

229
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,000
Speaker 2: than optimal situations. For example, I was interviewing one person

230
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,839
Speaker 2: in a Kentucky Fried Chicken in the city, and there

231
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,280
Speaker 2: was obviously we were being watched. There were people close

232
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,720
Speaker 2: by from the government, and they actually came over and

233
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,720
Speaker 2: approached us. So under those circumstances, it's really difficult to

234
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,560
Speaker 2: drill down and get people to be frank about what's

235
00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,439
Speaker 2: going on. So some of the answers we get are

236
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,640
Speaker 2: sometimes we have to take them with a pinch of salt.

237
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,720
Speaker 2: One of the arguments people were saying was like, okay,

238
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,400
Speaker 2: so maybe we're not as economically progressive or developed as

239
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,559
Speaker 2: other parts of China, but our quality of life, our

240
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,200
Speaker 2: pace of life is better here, is slower here. So

241
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,640
Speaker 2: it's this sort of like explain in a very generous

242
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,679
Speaker 2: way what the economy and the government actions, how they're

243
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,280
Speaker 2: playing out. But of course, no matter how generous their

244
00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,240
Speaker 2: take is on their situation. The reality is that if

245
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,840
Speaker 2: we accumulate an add all of these situations up nationally,

246
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 2: that is not going to help she or China achieve their.

247
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,640
Speaker 1: Goal after the break. China's president has a political stake

248
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:49,800
Speaker 1: in getting this problem under control, James. We see income

249
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,280
Speaker 1: inequality all over the world. Of course, how big of

250
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,520
Speaker 1: a problem is it in China.

251
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,880
Speaker 3: The income and equality in China is stock. The data

252
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,120
Speaker 3: we have on show that is not as good as

253
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:02,680
Speaker 3: the data you might see in the US or in

254
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,480
Speaker 3: other places. But Beijing's Tier one cities like Beijing and

255
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,880
Speaker 3: Shanghai are the same living standards as developed nations in

256
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 3: the West. There's no difference in the equality of services,

257
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,800
Speaker 3: the income levels, the cost of living in these places

258
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,360
Speaker 3: is basically unchanged from Australia or the US or Europe.

259
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,960
Speaker 3: And then you have very very poor places in other

260
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,280
Speaker 3: parts of the country which are very underdeveloped, and the

261
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 3: income equality across regions is stuck. And then within cities

262
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,000
Speaker 3: you also have incredible gaps between the rich and the poor.

263
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 3: And this is a real problem and it's and this

264
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,640
Speaker 3: has been growing as China has grown, and you see

265
00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,000
Speaker 3: these people like Jack Mah from Ali Baba and other

266
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,800
Speaker 3: incredibly wealthy people. The government looks at that and they say,

267
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,520
Speaker 3: these people are very wealthy. There are a lot of

268
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 3: other people who are not wealthy, who are poor, who

269
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,680
Speaker 3: are struggling, who can't afford to buy apartments in the

270
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,280
Speaker 3: cities where they live. We need to do something about this.

271
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,400
Speaker 3: So common prosperities are sort of overarching slogan of the

272
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,200
Speaker 3: government that really is kind of similar to a lot

273
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,760
Speaker 3: of the stuff you see in other countries where politicians

274
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,920
Speaker 3: are trying to say the cost of living is too high,

275
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,000
Speaker 3: inflation is too high, we need to do something to

276
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,640
Speaker 3: provide housing and these things that our people want. And

277
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 3: I think the interesting thing here is that this kind

278
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,000
Speaker 3: of shows the difficulty the central government actually has enforcing

279
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:18,920
Speaker 3: the rest of the country to do things that they want.

280
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,840
Speaker 3: I mean, people think of China as this authoritarian state

281
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 3: where Chijinpin can do anything he wants, and that's certainly

282
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,560
Speaker 3: true in some situations. If he wants to do a

283
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,200
Speaker 3: specific thing, he can totally make everyone do that. But

284
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,600
Speaker 3: he can't do that all the time about everything, and

285
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,160
Speaker 3: so you're seeing this. For example, the government wants to

286
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,320
Speaker 3: crack down on hidden debt and make sure that cities

287
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,280
Speaker 3: and provinces aren't hiding dead off the balance sheets but

288
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 3: keeping on other balance sheets. And all the cities and

289
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,480
Speaker 3: provinces places like her Gug are saying, hey, that's a

290
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,920
Speaker 3: great idea for everyone else, not for me. So the

291
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,960
Speaker 3: central government has been trying to de risk the economy

292
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,040
Speaker 3: by putting all this debt on the balance sheets, and

293
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:55,880
Speaker 3: everyone is saying that, yeah, that's a great idea. The

294
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,520
Speaker 3: riskin is a great idea, but not for us. We

295
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,320
Speaker 3: want to continue to borrow and spend so that we

296
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:01,760
Speaker 3: can develop our economy.

297
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,800
Speaker 1: Is the situation in Hagung an indication of what could

298
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,040
Speaker 1: start to happen in other cities across the country.

299
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,960
Speaker 3: There are probably many other places that have debt levels

300
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,400
Speaker 3: that are just as high. It just hasn't been announced,

301
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,520
Speaker 3: and there are many other places that are in similarly

302
00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,240
Speaker 3: dire fiscal straits. It just hasn't come out yet. It

303
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,600
Speaker 3: hasn't been reported in the local media. The local government

304
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,160
Speaker 3: hasn't put out a statement about the problems that they're facing.

305
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,320
Speaker 3: There are places around the country where the government has

306
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,160
Speaker 3: said we have to stop providing X and Y services,

307
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 3: bus services or heating for example, and her gang. In

308
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,120
Speaker 3: the winter, the local heating company suddenly said, we're not

309
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,120
Speaker 3: going to provide heating for the city because we haven't

310
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,160
Speaker 3: been paid our money. So there is these little sort

311
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,240
Speaker 3: of things that pop up in the local media or whatever.

312
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 3: You see these cases. But I think the problem is

313
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,240
Speaker 3: that this is much more widespread than is being reported.

314
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 3: The population declines, especially the northeast of China is seeing,

315
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 3: are incredibly, incredibly damaging the economy, and there's no way

316
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 3: that that's going to be reversed. These are aging societies,

317
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,359
Speaker 3: and the young people who would have kids are looking

318
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,040
Speaker 3: to move away or have already moved away because there's

319
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 3: no jobs.

320
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,000
Speaker 1: How important is it Tiji's power that people have trust

321
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 1: in him.

322
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 2: We talked earlier about how other countries have face similar challenges.

323
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 2: But one thing that's important obviously in China is that

324
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,359
Speaker 2: we don't have the channels. People don't have the proper

325
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 2: channels to express their frustrations or their desires or requirements

326
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,359
Speaker 2: of the government. So what happens is that frustration and

327
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,560
Speaker 2: dissatisfaction can from time to time raise up in the

328
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,840
Speaker 2: form of protests, and that can be a very big

329
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,280
Speaker 2: problem for the party. That's not what they want to see.

330
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,520
Speaker 2: They do not want social instability. So in order to

331
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 2: make sure that that doesn't happen, the government really has

332
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,320
Speaker 2: to be seen to improve the people's livelihoods. Because the

333
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,560
Speaker 2: original sort of contract, if you will, between the party

334
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,120
Speaker 2: and the people is that this is very a little

335
00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,280
Speaker 2: bit over simplistic, perhaps, but we have the power, but

336
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 2: we in exchange, we will take care of your livelihood,

337
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,679
Speaker 2: will give you an opportunity to be part of an

338
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,439
Speaker 2: economy that's growing and prosperous. So if that starts to

339
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,040
Speaker 2: break down, then it does create huge stress points for

340
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,200
Speaker 2: the government. Now, in terms of trust, it is super

341
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 2: important that maintains that trust. But we've had a couple

342
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,320
Speaker 2: of incidents in the past couple of years with she

343
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,720
Speaker 2: and his government where that trust has definitely been challenged,

344
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,000
Speaker 2: if not eroded, And I think one specific case would

345
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 2: have been the COVID handling and the Shanghai lockdown in particular,

346
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,639
Speaker 2: that was a moment where it looked as if people

347
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,720
Speaker 2: really were just fed up with the top down government approach.

348
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 2: In the end, he survived that it didn't really have

349
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,160
Speaker 2: any lasting impact on his credibility, but as these sort

350
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,760
Speaker 2: of events frequency increase over time, it is possible that

351
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 2: this will continue to erode away at She's credibility. So

352
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,080
Speaker 2: it's super important that the government be seen to take

353
00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:56,720
Speaker 2: action on this and do it in a way that

354
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 2: has a meaningful impact on the peer people's lives. Now,

355
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,560
Speaker 2: having said that, there's one issue here is that about

356
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,479
Speaker 2: the transparency of this discussion, which I begin with, is

357
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,520
Speaker 2: very very low, and even up until recently, I would

358
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,920
Speaker 2: say the standard reaction from the Chinese governments, especially through

359
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,439
Speaker 2: state media, has been to sort of dismiss talk of

360
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,000
Speaker 2: the debt problem by saying, oh, this is Western media

361
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 2: overblowing it. It's actually not that bad, and everything's under control,

362
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,679
Speaker 2: it's stable. So there hasn't really been a sort of

363
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 2: a deep reckoning with the issue. Now, I think there

364
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 2: are indications that that's starting to change. We're starting to

365
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,239
Speaker 2: see more a little bit more discussion of it in

366
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,919
Speaker 2: the media, but definitely I don't see at this point

367
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,359
Speaker 2: a real sort of willingness to tackle this problem head on,

368
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,800
Speaker 2: and that is an issue. If the government doesn't address

369
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 2: this quickly, then it could be that that sort of

370
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 2: social tension will only continue to rise.

371
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 1: When we return the possible ripple effects of China's local

372
00:19:55,320 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 1: debt in other parts of the world. James, given everything

373
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 1: that came, has just said, what solutions do the Chinese

374
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,960
Speaker 1: government have to the problems that are now spreading across

375
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 1: the country to other cities.

376
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 3: A lot of these indebted places are basically looking for

377
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,159
Speaker 3: a handout from the central government, and the central government

378
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 3: so far is not willing to do that. And the

379
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,200
Speaker 3: reason for that is if they give money to one city,

380
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,920
Speaker 3: if they give money to one province, then every other

381
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 3: city and province in China is going to come to

382
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,480
Speaker 3: them and say, hey, you paid off Guayjow's debts, how

383
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 3: come you won't pay off my debts? And so they're

384
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,880
Speaker 3: having to balance these moral hazard of They do need

385
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 3: to solve these problems, but if they step in too early,

386
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 3: then a lot of the problems won't be solved at

387
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 3: the local level where the government wants them to be solved.

388
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 3: They'll be solved at the central government level and become

389
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 3: a Beijing problem as opposed to a Guajoor problem or

390
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 3: a Haylong Jung problem.

391
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 1: Is there any danger that this starts to snowball in

392
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 1: a way that affects China's standing in the global economy.

393
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 3: Thing you're going to see is slower growth at a time,

394
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,960
Speaker 3: so that means Chinese people don't get as rich as fast.

395
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,200
Speaker 3: It makes it harder to create income equality because there's

396
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 3: just less income. It makes it harder for the government

397
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 3: to achieve this doubling of income. But it also means

398
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 3: less Chinese demand for foreign goods. If you're a commodity

399
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 3: exporting country like Brazil or Australia, or if you're a

400
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 3: Southeast Asian nation that's looking to move up the value

401
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 3: chain by selling manufactured goods to China, if Chinese people

402
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 3: are buying less of those goods, that's less income for you,

403
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 3: and so there's less growth for the whole world. Basically,

404
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,199
Speaker 3: So the first way that transmits through is to slower

405
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 3: growth in China, and then the second thing is then

406
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 3: how that might affect China's standing. Is that China has

407
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 3: been using its growing economic power, and especially it's both exporting,

408
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 3: but it's also a huge importer, and it's been using

409
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 3: that import power to increase its influence around the rest

410
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 3: of the world. If that goes the opposite direction, you

411
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 3: may see a change in how much China can influence

412
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 3: things that are going on in Africa, for example, or

413
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,880
Speaker 3: things that are happening in Southeast Asia. A permanent slowdown

414
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 3: of Chinese growth is definitely going to change China's global

415
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 3: standing because a lot of China's global standing is based

416
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 3: on its economic power.

417
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 1: Callum and someone who is covering this every day, what

418
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 1: are you watching for next? How do you see this

419
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 1: playing out in the months and even years to come.

420
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 2: The way I'm looking at this is will this be

421
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 2: another area that poses a threat to She's standing, to

422
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 2: his relationship with the Chinese people? Does it have the

423
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,360
Speaker 2: potential to become another major issue along the lines of, say,

424
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 2: for example, the handling of COVID. So from that perspective,

425
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: I'll be looking to see what actions he issues through

426
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,439
Speaker 2: his team of close advisors, and see how successful he

427
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 2: is in facing up to the problem and implementing and

428
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 2: devising and implementing a strategy that makes sense, and also

429
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 2: looking at the reaction. What I tend to look at

430
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 2: quite a lot is what's happening on the ground. What

431
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 2: are the protests that are breaking out here, even though

432
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 2: they're micro and might be fragmented and spread all over

433
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 2: the country. Who's taking to the streets. Who's going to

434
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 2: social media complaining what is the characteristics of those people's frustrations.

435
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 2: So looking both from the macro perspective what is she doing,

436
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: but also looking at the micro level to see if

437
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 2: we can see any evidence that this is actually playing

438
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 2: out on the street, because to get that evidence is

439
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 2: quite tricky, quite challenging, given the fact that there's such

440
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 2: a clampdown on reporting and news and social media as

441
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 2: heavily censored.

442
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: James, how do you see this unfolding?

443
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 4: So?

444
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 3: I think the first thing to be watching for is

445
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 3: scattered reports of other places facing fiscal difficulties. We saw

446
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 3: the city of Hohart, which is in a Mongolia, popped

447
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 3: up about their debt problems on our local website and

448
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 3: then it was very quickly disappeared. You saw the same

449
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 3: thing happening in Guajo. A government related think tank put

450
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 3: out a report saying they were struggling and couldn't pay

451
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 3: their debts, and then that very quickly got deleted. Those

452
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 3: look to be basically calls for help from local governments

453
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 3: to the central government, saying we're struggling, we need help,

454
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 3: and they seem to be doing that via putting out

455
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 3: a report it gets a lot of media attention, and

456
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 3: then it obviously gets deleted, but everyone suddenly away is

457
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 3: aware of the problem. So I think we should be

458
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 3: watching for more of those things, and I think those

459
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 3: things are going to happen more and more as other

460
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 3: places face these same kind of issues.

461
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: James Column, thanks so much for speaking with me today.

462
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks for listening to us here at The

463
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio.

464
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

465
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you.

466
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: Email us questions or comments at Big Take at Bloomberg

467
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is

468
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: Vicky Ergolina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Federica Romanello

469
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 1: is our producer. Associate producer is Zenobsidiki hilde Garcia is

470
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: our engineer. Our original music was composed by Leo Sidrin.

471
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 1: I'm Wes Kosova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.