WEBVTT - The Black Thread, Ep4 | Norway Beyond Oil 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:10.320 Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Today 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:14.040 we are bringing you the fourth and final episode of 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:19.040 the miniseries The Black Thread, about Norway's complicated relationship with 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:23.640 its identity as both a progressive leader and an oil state. 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:26.400 This mini series comes to you from the host of 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.920 the Communicating climate change podcast, Dick and von vick Stone, 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:34.120 and was created in collaboration with Norwegian nonprofit Climate Culture. 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:38.080 In today's episode, we look at Norway beyond Oil because 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:42.000 despite the limits that Norway's oil industry imposes on its citizens' 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:45.960 ability to imagine a future without fossil fuels, people all 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:49.040 over the country are starting to speak up, take action, 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:53.320 and begin the work to free themselves from the industry's influence. 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.800 We're excited to bring you this fourth and final episode 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:58.080 of The Black Thread. 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:09.840 Enjoy Welcome back to The Black Thread, a podcast unraveling 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:14.720 Norway's complex relationship with prosperity, identity, and responsibility in a 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:19.400 warming world. I'm Dickon, a climate communications expert based in Oslo, 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:24.120 the Norwegian capital, tracing the Black Thread oil through Norway's 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.160 society and culture. Last time, we picked at the needlework, 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.440 uncovering dropped stitches in the stories and rhetoric of the 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:35.319 Norwegian fossil fuel industry and the logic championed by Norway's 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.640 major political parties to extend the country's oil age long 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.039 into the future. Reflecting back to the first episode of 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:45.800 this series, and sociologists carry nor Guards claim that when 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.720 you study something that's a threat to society, you start 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.320 to see how things work. I think it's fair to 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:55.240 say that through this journey of discovery drilling into Norway's 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:59.800 oil story, we've begun to do exactly that. But where 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:04.800 do we go from here? In this closing episode of 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:09.600 The Black Thread, we'll look forwards imagining Norway's future with 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:13.079 help from leading experts. We'll explore how Norway might begin 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:16.560 to loosen oil's grip on its politics and identity, and 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:19.840 hear how different voices envision aligning the country's actions with 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.160 its values, its reputation, and the realities of a change 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.440 in climate. In short, how Norwegian society might free itself 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.880 from the influence of oil. Along the way, we'll hear 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.080 a range of perspectives on what it could take to 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:37.079 unpick the Black Thread from strengthening journalism and civic debate 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.679 to reducing the influence of fossil fuels across culture, sports 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.320 and public life, and drawing on Norway's long traditions of care, 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.520 courage and collaboration to shape what comes next. To get 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:52.400 us started, let's hear from Carrie Norgard, a sociologist are 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.400 referenced earlier who studied how societies grapple with climate change, 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:59.720 including here in Norway. Her work looks at the cultural 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:03.400 and emotional dimensions of denial and inaction, and how our 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:07.200 shared values, traditions, and sense of belonging shape what feels 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:11.040 possible in a country where as we've learned in previous episodes, 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:14.400 oil is bound up with the national identity. This lens 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.880 is crucial for understanding not only why Norway struggles to 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.880 imagine the end of its oil age, but also where 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:22.280 change might come from. 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.040 For all of us, Imagining the future is difficult in 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:28.280 different kinds of ways, and for sure in Norway there's 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:32.079 just this wonderful grounding in sensive history in the past 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:36.160 as a way of understanding the present. At the same time, 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:40.640 we have to be able to imagine the future. Norwegians, 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.680 like most of us, should be doing more of that. 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.640 And understanding the ways that our imaginers of the future 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.560 may be shaped by assumptions about the present that may 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.000 or may not be accurate. I think we need to 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.040 understand the reasons that we are where we are in 0:03:58.120 --> 0:03:59.480 order to get somewhere else. 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.040 Carry emphasizes that our ability to imagine the future is 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:08.280 often shaped and sometimes limited by assumptions we carry about 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:11.560 the present, and across this series, it has become clear 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.040 that many of the barriers to imagining a future beyond 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:18.840 oil in Norway aren't accidental. Critics argue that petroganda doesn't 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:22.240 just defend the industry, it helps shape what people see 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:27.240 as possible, influencing both thought and feeling. Building on that, 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.760 Carrie's research suggests that fear, guilt, and a sense of 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.520 helplessness have played a central role in shaping Norwegian's responses 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:38.279 to climate change. I asked her which emotions, in contrast, 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:42.040 might help societies like Norway engage differently, and what they 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:44.920 might reveal about the country's capacity for change. 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.000 Recognizing that this whole system is operating and that it's 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.000 not just a matter of that people don't care or 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.840 that people don't know. I think that's really important, and 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.560 so trying to paint a understanding of the world where 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.960 it takes courage to and so what are the conditions 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.120 under which we can find that courage And I think 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:10.240 community is one. I think traditions that point us to 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.920 a sense of responsibility where we don't have a choice 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.080 to care or not are very, very valuable. And so 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.800 political social movements can create a larger feeling of capacity 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.919 where there's common purpose and more power felt in that. 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.000 And I think we can circle around to Yantolovin in 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.560 a way there and think about ways that there can 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:35.640 be created subcultures of engagement building off of existing social traditions, 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.880 existing points of pride. I have an article with a 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:40.000 colleague on donod. 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.760 Remember the Norwegian concept of dougnod from episode one, This 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:48.919 idea of volunteering to a collective purpose and contributing to 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:49.680 the greater good. 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:53.680 There's a possible springboard for climate action. And the idea 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.679 of climate dougnod is an antidote to individualism. 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:56.960 Right. 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.160 We're made to believe that we should think of action 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:03.159 at the individual scale, but ultimately we are much more 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:06.840 powerful when we work collectively, and so it's a cultural 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:09.680 tool that allows collective action to take place. 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:15.120 So according to Carry, simply recognizing these limits to imagination 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:19.640 and to action is an important first step. But then 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:24.240 what In a society that prizes consensus, Stepping outside the 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:28.560 norm can feel almost impossible. Several of our experts contend 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.200 that this is part of how oil interests maintain their 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:35.360 hold in Norway. By presenting oil as common sense, as 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:40.760 the responsible and pragmatic choice, it makes oppositions seem unseerious 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:45.040 or even extreme. Carry reminds us that courage doesn't have 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.560 to come from lone individuals. It can grow from community. 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:54.359 From the same values, Norwegians already live by consensus, collective responsibility, 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.919 and a love of nature. Those values once helped protect 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:03.400 the oil story. Consensus silenced opposition, collective responsibility made oil 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.960 feel like a shared national project, and love of nature 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:10.120 became a story where money and technology could protect the 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:15.560 environment even as the damaging forces of extraction and consumption escalated. 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:19.640 But Carry suggests those same cultural instincts can also guide 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:23.360 Norway in a new direction. Consensus can open space for 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.880 honest debate, collective responsibility can mean holding leaders and companies 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.520 to account, and a love of nature can grow from 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:35.440 reverence into stewardship, and yet even when society will courage 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:39.280 and debate grow, their impact depends on how these pressures 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:45.040 interact with politics. Understanding how change unfolds inside institutions can 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:49.200 reveal opportunities for influence, which is precisely where bord Lane, 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.679 from the University of Oslo's Oil and Society Research Network 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:57.320 comes in. With a storied background in both activism and advocacy, 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.000 Board offers a window into how change actually happens within 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.920 Norway's political system and what's possible when people come together 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:06.520 to make their priorities known. 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:10.760 One thing that's easy to miss when you see policy 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:15.120 making from the outside the institutions is how dynamic things 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:17.680 really are. So this is some reason for hope and 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.960 for hoping that change might actually be more achievable than 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:24.120 it might sometimes seem, because from the outside it's very 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:27.040 easy to see the government or the political system as 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.960 a kind of a monolithic thing, right, But the role 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.400 of civil servants and the role of the different ministries 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.640 and so on, it kind of cuts both ways, because 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.480 in one way it serves to conserve to some extent 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.319 and to make changes difficult, but it also makes sure 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.240 that there are lots of viewpoints represented in policy processes, 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.719 even if it might not look like that from the outside. 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.400 I have this one vivid memory from the process when 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:55.040 I was helping to write this government commission report on 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.560 a new climate policy or Norway towards twenty fifty were 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.280 I and a group of people were sitting inside the 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.880 Ministry of Climate and Environment writing this new report, and 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:09.400 then suddenly all of the entrances to the ministry were 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:13.520 blocked by activists, including Great Tatunberg, And it was such 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:17.920 an absurd feeling sitting inside this ministry actually writing a 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:20.040 report that tried to make many of the same points 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.680 that the protesters were making. Right, The point is not 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.160 to say that, you know, protesters should go more easy 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.360 on the institutions or anything like that to the country. 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.000 I think a strong voice outside these buildings really help 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.679 build momentum for change inside them. But I would say, 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.120 at least for these activists, it should be a reason 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:40.640 for hope that most of the times you could count 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:43.520 on the fact that at least someone within these institutions 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.680 are actually echoing some of your points, and so by 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.840 making a strong case outside, you're actually strengthening some voices inside, 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:55.280 and you should be maybe looking for allies within these institutions. 0:09:56.440 --> 0:10:00.800 This example reinforces carry Norga's point the collective action is vital. 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:05.600 Strong visible activism outside government can reinforce voices working for 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:10.679 change inside. Public pressure strengthens the internal advocates who are 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.160 shaping policy behind the scenes. And this isn't just theory. 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:18.080 Public pressure recently pushed the Norwegian government to divest the 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.440 oil fund from Israeli companies tied to the genocide in Gaza. 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:25.680 It also influenced the moratorium on seabed mining and shaped 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:30.439 responses to indigenous Sami rights violations too. So Norwegians aren't 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:32.760 powerless in the face of oil industry rhetoric. 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:33.920 Far from it. 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.520 Public opinion plays an important role in shaping the political landscape, 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.319 providing it's loud and clear. What we think of as 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:47.080 normal shapes what we do and say. But normal isn't fixed. 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.160 It shifts over time as people see what others are 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.440 doing and saying. In Norway, as we discussed in the 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.679 first episode of this series, the tendency towards self censorship 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.119 and not rocking the boat can high how much attitudes 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:05.400 are changing. When polling makes that visible. What once seemed 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:09.920 fringe starts to feel mainstream, giving people confidence to speak up, 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.480 act and push their leaders to respond. And for those 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:17.520 who can't or don't wish to protest publicly, there's another 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:22.520 powerful way to drive change, the right to vote. Sillia 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:26.040 ask Lundberg, head of north Sea Campaigning at Oil Change International, 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.520 shares insight on how Norwegians might align their votes with 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:30.280 their values. 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.439 In terms of oil and gas policy. Fifty percent ish 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.880 of the general public wants to stop exploring for new 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.079 oil and gas or to slow down exploration, so they 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.199 want some kind of reduction, and the parties that support 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:49.000 that and have party manifestos that are in line with that, 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.760 that would be m the gear. So the Green Party 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.720 es the Socialist Left Party, then slid the Liberal Party 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:57.480 and wret the Red Party. 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.240 In the recent national election, several of the parties stillia 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.040 mentioned those advocating to slow or stop new oil exploration 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:09.960 made significant gains. These outcomes point to an appetite for change. 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.280 But even in a relatively open political system like Norway's, 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.480 where citizens often have direct access to decision makers, policy 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:21.559 shifts don't happen automatically. They depend on debates carried out 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:25.920 in good faith with credible information at the center. Our 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.640 experts suggest that for people to support or critique climate policy, 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:33.800 they need to understand how ambitious or timid government proposals 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:37.199 really are, and they need tools to hold politicians accountable 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:41.400 for following through on their promises. That requires journalism to 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.960 play its part to moderate the debate, fact check the claims, 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.560 and make complex issues accessible, as well as to cover 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.720 major protests or actions when they happen. Too Yet, in Norway, 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.199 especially when it comes to oil, gas and climate politics, 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.480 we've heard in previous episodes how the press often struggles 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.560 to provide the level of scrutiny required as journalists. Writer 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.760 and project leader at the Norwegian Climate Foundation, Anakarr and 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.960 Sather explains the gap in critical climate literate journalism leaves 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.880 citizens without the reliable information they need to make informed choices. 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:20.000 Well, there's two few journalists that write about oil and 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:22.480 gas in a way. Back in the nineties we had 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.080 lots of oil journalists in a way, but now we 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.040 have too few experts in media and a lot of 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.200 people think that climate and energy politics in general are 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:36.040 complicated and they're afraid of doing something wrong. So among 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:41.720 the political journalists and commentators, there is hardly anything about 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.520 oil and gas. Perhaps that's also because there is normally 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:51.200 not conflict lines through the big parties, like between the 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.800 Conservatives and the Social Democrats. They agree on the oil 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.760 and gas politics, so that's part of the reason as well. 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.840 But I think the media should step up their game. 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.560 They just need to learn more about it and to 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.240 be more eager to learn. I think they have an 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:12.720 important role in shaping our minds and their hearts in 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:13.360 this area. 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.760 A recent PhD thesis on climate journalism confirms what Anna 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:21.160 Karen observes. Coverage of oil in Norway is minimal and 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:25.880 often shallow. The study concluded that quote journalism's ability to 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.440 highlight the climate oil connection in Norway is limited due 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:33.600 to oil industry hegemony and journalistic norms and routines end 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.800 quote in practice. As we've heard in previous episodes, this 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.360 means that much of the public discourse about oil is 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:44.360 untethered from the real environmental and social stakes of burning 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:48.440 fossil fuels. Considering the idea we've heard floated about the 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:52.320 social costs of acting outside perceived social norms, I asked 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.720 Ana Karen whether her outspokenness on oil and climate had 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.160 ever drawn pushback or professional consequences. 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.880 Not at all. And talk to everyone in oil and 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.920 everyone in politics. I haven't had any problems at all. 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.760 In social media, you can get criticism. You will be 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:14.400 portrayed as someone who is not smart enough to understand 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.840 how things really are, not smart enough to understand how 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:21.960 the economy is, or things like that. Scientists say that 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:26.120 it is the extremes that are most active in social media, 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:31.160 so that's understandable. But there's a huge movable middle that 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:35.200 we can communicate with and they may not raise their 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.440 voice that much, but they are there. They are listening. 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.760 That's what we have to work with to give them 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:46.000 facts and to give them some other stories than what 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:47.040 they are used to. 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:51.400 Reflecting back to carry nor guards call for courage, journalists 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:54.560 can take some comfort in Ana Khan's words, there is 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:58.119 a receptive audience and a movable middle ready to engage. 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.520 The silence around oil won't break itself, but it can 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.640 be challenged through clear, persistent reporting that connects the dots. 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.400 Some have already been active in this work. For example, 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:13.960 Standout News reports on the activist group People Against Fossil 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.560 Power during the Ski World Championships told a compelling story 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.920 about regular citizens making a stand, made the connections between oil, 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.040 climate and the threat to winter sports, and followed the 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:29.560 interactions between activists, sports people and scientists through to its 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:35.120 successful conclusion. Elsewhere, As Anikarin explains, Norway's journalists need to 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.880 step up their game. The facts need to reach the 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:42.240 people and be connected to broader public debates. And even then, 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:48.280 another challenge remains accountability. Journalism's role doesn't end with exposure. 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:53.440 As author, journalist and climate data expert Catanjoshi explains, it 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:57.760 also means following up, tracing where the promises lead to action, 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:00.080 and applying pressure to make it so. 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.240 So now is pretty comparable with other countries that I 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.960 like to call progressive climate villains, which is, you know, 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:14.000 countries like Australia, countries like Canada that have center or 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.960 center left governments go to cop meetings with a lot 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:22.320 of sort of bluster and confidence, but really don't have 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.160 the numbers to back it up. We make progress. Our 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:29.320 transport sector is actually seeing a reduction in greenhouse gas 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.160 emissions due to the deployment of electric vehicles. These are 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.919 real numbers. It's going down it's good, but the question 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.440 is is it going down in line with what our 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:42.439 previous targets were, And no, it's not. Governments should be 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.520 held accountable, no matter whether you like them or hate them. 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.720 They should be held accountable to their promises, and if 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:51.520 they're failed, give them a chance to explain it. Maybe 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:55.320 there are good reasons, but to just refuse to check 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.280 is really bad. And just like the other countries that 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:04.119 I analyze, Norway is among the countries that really just 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.879 avoids the question. When people think about climate delay or 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.480 climate denial, they often think about things that are real problems, 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:16.200 like misinformation from the fossil fuel industry, or corruption among 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.560 politicians and companies. All of those things are really material 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:23.879 and significant. But I've become quite obsessed with hollowness and 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.080 emptiness of rhetoric, and I think Norway is among the 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.679 countries that knows how to make a good speech. But 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.640 when it comes to their actual accountability, that's when things 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:35.159 start falling apart a little bit. When emissions fail to 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.800 fall as fast as they should, part of it is 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:41.000 because we heard the right thing, but we didn't follow 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:43.160 up to check whether or not people did the right thing. 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.080 So my understanding is that the social cost of weak 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:51.040 climate journalism isn't just a less informed public. It also 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.480 gives politicians room to talk the talk without walking it. 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.880 Catan notes that Norway often sounds ambitious on the international stage, 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.120 but as we explored, when the previous episode, follow Through 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:07.119 tends to lag behind alongside visible activism, then journalism is 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:10.120 one of the clearest ways to push back against industry 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:14.760 influence when it falters. Oil doesn't just dominate politics. We've 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.000 heard how it seeps into culture, art, sport, and the 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.040 stories people tell themselves and each other about what it 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.800 means to be Norwegian. The report What is Norwegian Energy 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:29.760 Culture from Klimaculture, a nonprofit focused on climate, nature and justice, 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.040 documents the reach of this influence across public debate and 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.560 daily life. That's the thread we're pulling on here, how 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.800 oil's presence in everyday life shapes what Norwegians see is 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:45.040 normal and how it might finally be unpicked. Activism, voting, 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.879 and journalism all offer paths to change, but there are 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:53.080 other ways to loosen oil's grip too. Yuliafortschammer from Klimacutuur 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.840 suggests how Norway might begin to do so through alternative means, 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.040 drawing on moments of past leadership and change. 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:02.919 The very first thing we have to do is to 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.840 make people aware of how much the fossil funding is, 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:10.000 because in the culture sector it's really not that much money, 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.720 but it seems so much harder to stop it because 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.119 people are worth for the funding. But what we see 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.199 in the UK, where so many cultural institutions already have 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.879 kicked out fossil fuels, is that they have to do 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.000 it because the audience demanded. My dream for the culture 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:28.800 sector in Norway and also for sports is that children 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:31.359 and young people should not be exposed and should not 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:35.479 be wearing logos advertising for companies who are actively hurting 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.080 this world. I think we should start to talk about 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:42.520 how Norway reacted to tobacco back in the seventies, Noah 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:44.639 being one of the countries in the world who was 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.359 the first to band tobacco advertising in nineteen seventy five. 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:50.760 And I think we really have to understand how bizarre 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:54.920 it is that someone advertising such a harmful product gets 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.480 so much access to our minds, to our children, to 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:04.240 everyone through them very rarely respected actors like schools, museums, arts, etc. 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.200 What we really need to start talking about in Norway 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:11.320 when it comes to petroganda, fossil fuel advertising, sponsorships, etc. 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.280 Is that it's becoming illegal. So many places in the 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:18.199 world right now, more and more cities and readients and 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:22.320 even countries are talking and have implemented fossil fuel advertising 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:26.879 bands fossil fuel sponsorship bands. So it's not even a 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.080 question about what is right or wrong and how do 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:31.000 you feel? And what about the money and all that 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:33.280 it could also become totally illegal. 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:38.199 Julia's point is pretty straightforward. If sponsorships and ads from 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:41.679 oil and gas companies help normalize their presence in everyday life, 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:45.520 then limiting that exposure could open space for new voices, 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.639 new partners, and a cultural life more in tune with 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.520 what she sees as Norway's core values. And Norway wouldn't 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:56.080 be starting from scratch. The country already has a history 0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:59.960 of restricting advertising from industries that cause harm from tobacco, 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.240 go to junk food, and with similar bands on fossil 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.560 fuel promotion and gaining traction around the world supported by 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:10.080 voices as prominent as the United Nations, Norway would simply 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:14.560 be keeping step with its peers. Also, interestingly, the sums 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:18.320 of money involved here aren't immense. In a previous episode, 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.920 we heard how Norway's national oil company, Equinor, spends around 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:25.520 seven million dollars a year on cultural sponsorships, an amount 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:28.280 Yulia believes is small enough to be replaced by more 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:32.240 socially responsible partners. All of this suggests, at least to 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:36.720 me that the symbolic power of fossil sponsorship far outweighs 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:40.800 its financial scale. If the will exists, change is well 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.600 within reach, and the change might even already have started. 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:49.560 One of Norway's thirteen science centers, institutions we've heard criticized 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:54.080 for being amplifiers of petroganda, has explicitly refused to partner 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.600 with Equinor, stating that such a relationship would conflict with 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:00.919 their values. But thinking about Norway's fuel future isn't just 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.199 about who funds its culture or how public debate and 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:08.800 political accountability are strengthened. Sociologists carry more. God points out 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.200 that a deep belief in innovation and modernity runs through 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:16.080 the national psyche, shaping how the country approaches climate challenges 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:18.879 and what solutions feel possible in the first place. 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:23.240 Amongst the things that I've found really unique and really wonderful, 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:26.920 but also that maybe shape the particular ways that people 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:32.080 think about climate change include the sense that modernism is working. 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:36.800 There's a sense of optimism therefore in technology, and of 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:38.720 course this can be a wonderful thing. A sense of 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:41.640 optimism is very important if you're trying to solve problems. 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:44.840 There's a trajectory that the world has gotten better and better, 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:47.960 that technology works, and then climate change really can come 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:51.040 face to face a challenge that But if you aren't 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:53.960 as bought into the idea that the world is getting 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.800 better and better and that modernism is so universally a 0:23:56.840 --> 0:24:00.439 good thing. For example, if you're a sami per, the 0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:04.720 rise of Norwegian modernism has led to pretty severe atrocities 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:08.960 for indigenous peoples in Norway, then probably your sense of 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:11.760 whether we're falling off a cliff when it comes to 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:15.760 the future or whether were already in crisis is very different. 0:24:16.760 --> 0:24:19.639 Carry points out that Norway has a deep belief that 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:23.280 innovation will solve the world's greatest problems, and whilst this 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:26.760 kind of optimism has benefits, it can also make deeper 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:31.680 systemic challenges harder to see and address. For example, we've 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:34.840 heard much about the faith and support Norwegian's throw behind 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:37.800 the likes of carbon capture and storage and blue hydrogen 0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:42.360