1 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Today 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: we are bringing you the fourth and final episode of 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: the miniseries The Black Thread, about Norway's complicated relationship with 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: its identity as both a progressive leader and an oil state. 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: This mini series comes to you from the host of 6 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: the Communicating climate change podcast, Dick and von vick Stone, 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: and was created in collaboration with Norwegian nonprofit Climate Culture. 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: In today's episode, we look at Norway beyond Oil because 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: despite the limits that Norway's oil industry imposes on its citizens' 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: ability to imagine a future without fossil fuels, people all 11 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: over the country are starting to speak up, take action, 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: and begin the work to free themselves from the industry's influence. 13 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: We're excited to bring you this fourth and final episode 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: of The Black Thread. 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: Enjoy Welcome back to The Black Thread, a podcast unraveling 16 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: Norway's complex relationship with prosperity, identity, and responsibility in a 17 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 2: warming world. I'm Dickon, a climate communications expert based in Oslo, 18 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: the Norwegian capital, tracing the Black Thread oil through Norway's 19 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 2: society and culture. Last time, we picked at the needlework, 20 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: uncovering dropped stitches in the stories and rhetoric of the 21 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 2: Norwegian fossil fuel industry and the logic championed by Norway's 22 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: major political parties to extend the country's oil age long 23 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 2: into the future. Reflecting back to the first episode of 24 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: this series, and sociologists carry nor Guards claim that when 25 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: you study something that's a threat to society, you start 26 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: to see how things work. I think it's fair to 27 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: say that through this journey of discovery drilling into Norway's 28 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 2: oil story, we've begun to do exactly that. But where 29 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: do we go from here? In this closing episode of 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: The Black Thread, we'll look forwards imagining Norway's future with 31 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 2: help from leading experts. We'll explore how Norway might begin 32 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 2: to loosen oil's grip on its politics and identity, and 33 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: hear how different voices envision aligning the country's actions with 34 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: its values, its reputation, and the realities of a change 35 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: in climate. In short, how Norwegian society might free itself 36 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: from the influence of oil. Along the way, we'll hear 37 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 2: a range of perspectives on what it could take to 38 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 2: unpick the Black Thread from strengthening journalism and civic debate 39 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,679 Speaker 2: to reducing the influence of fossil fuels across culture, sports 40 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: and public life, and drawing on Norway's long traditions of care, 41 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 2: courage and collaboration to shape what comes next. To get 42 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 2: us started, let's hear from Carrie Norgard, a sociologist are 43 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: referenced earlier who studied how societies grapple with climate change, 44 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: including here in Norway. Her work looks at the cultural 45 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 2: and emotional dimensions of denial and inaction, and how our 46 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: shared values, traditions, and sense of belonging shape what feels 47 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 2: possible in a country where as we've learned in previous episodes, 48 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 2: oil is bound up with the national identity. This lens 49 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: is crucial for understanding not only why Norway struggles to 50 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: imagine the end of its oil age, but also where 51 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: change might come from. 52 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 3: For all of us, Imagining the future is difficult in 53 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 3: different kinds of ways, and for sure in Norway there's 54 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 3: just this wonderful grounding in sensive history in the past 55 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 3: as a way of understanding the present. At the same time, 56 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 3: we have to be able to imagine the future. Norwegians, 57 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: like most of us, should be doing more of that. 58 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 3: And understanding the ways that our imaginers of the future 59 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: may be shaped by assumptions about the present that may 60 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 3: or may not be accurate. I think we need to 61 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 3: understand the reasons that we are where we are in 62 00:03:58,120 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 3: order to get somewhere else. 63 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: Carry emphasizes that our ability to imagine the future is 64 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: often shaped and sometimes limited by assumptions we carry about 65 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: the present, and across this series, it has become clear 66 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: that many of the barriers to imagining a future beyond 67 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 2: oil in Norway aren't accidental. Critics argue that petroganda doesn't 68 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: just defend the industry, it helps shape what people see 69 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: as possible, influencing both thought and feeling. Building on that, 70 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: Carrie's research suggests that fear, guilt, and a sense of 71 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: helplessness have played a central role in shaping Norwegian's responses 72 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: to climate change. I asked her which emotions, in contrast, 73 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 2: might help societies like Norway engage differently, and what they 74 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: might reveal about the country's capacity for change. 75 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 3: Recognizing that this whole system is operating and that it's 76 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 3: not just a matter of that people don't care or 77 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 3: that people don't know. I think that's really important, and 78 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 3: so trying to paint a understanding of the world where 79 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: it takes courage to and so what are the conditions 80 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: under which we can find that courage And I think 81 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 3: community is one. I think traditions that point us to 82 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 3: a sense of responsibility where we don't have a choice 83 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 3: to care or not are very, very valuable. And so 84 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 3: political social movements can create a larger feeling of capacity 85 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 3: where there's common purpose and more power felt in that. 86 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 3: And I think we can circle around to Yantolovin in 87 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 3: a way there and think about ways that there can 88 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 3: be created subcultures of engagement building off of existing social traditions, 89 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 3: existing points of pride. I have an article with a 90 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 3: colleague on donod. 91 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: Remember the Norwegian concept of dougnod from episode one, This 92 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 2: idea of volunteering to a collective purpose and contributing to 93 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: the greater good. 94 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 3: There's a possible springboard for climate action. And the idea 95 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 3: of climate dougnod is an antidote to individualism. 96 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 4: Right. 97 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 3: We're made to believe that we should think of action 98 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 3: at the individual scale, but ultimately we are much more 99 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 3: powerful when we work collectively, and so it's a cultural 100 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 3: tool that allows collective action to take place. 101 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: So according to Carry, simply recognizing these limits to imagination 102 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: and to action is an important first step. But then 103 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: what In a society that prizes consensus, Stepping outside the 104 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: norm can feel almost impossible. Several of our experts contend 105 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: that this is part of how oil interests maintain their 106 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: hold in Norway. By presenting oil as common sense, as 107 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 2: the responsible and pragmatic choice, it makes oppositions seem unseerious 108 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 2: or even extreme. Carry reminds us that courage doesn't have 109 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: to come from lone individuals. It can grow from community. 110 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 2: From the same values, Norwegians already live by consensus, collective responsibility, 111 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 2: and a love of nature. Those values once helped protect 112 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: the oil story. Consensus silenced opposition, collective responsibility made oil 113 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: feel like a shared national project, and love of nature 114 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: became a story where money and technology could protect the 115 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: environment even as the damaging forces of extraction and consumption escalated. 116 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: But Carry suggests those same cultural instincts can also guide 117 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: Norway in a new direction. Consensus can open space for 118 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: honest debate, collective responsibility can mean holding leaders and companies 119 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 2: to account, and a love of nature can grow from 120 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: reverence into stewardship, and yet even when society will courage 121 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: and debate grow, their impact depends on how these pressures 122 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: interact with politics. Understanding how change unfolds inside institutions can 123 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: reveal opportunities for influence, which is precisely where bord Lane, 124 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,679 Speaker 2: from the University of Oslo's Oil and Society Research Network 125 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: comes in. With a storied background in both activism and advocacy, 126 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: Board offers a window into how change actually happens within 127 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: Norway's political system and what's possible when people come together 128 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: to make their priorities known. 129 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 5: One thing that's easy to miss when you see policy 130 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 5: making from the outside the institutions is how dynamic things 131 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 5: really are. So this is some reason for hope and 132 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 5: for hoping that change might actually be more achievable than 133 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 5: it might sometimes seem, because from the outside it's very 134 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 5: easy to see the government or the political system as 135 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 5: a kind of a monolithic thing, right, But the role 136 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 5: of civil servants and the role of the different ministries 137 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 5: and so on, it kind of cuts both ways, because 138 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 5: in one way it serves to conserve to some extent 139 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 5: and to make changes difficult, but it also makes sure 140 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 5: that there are lots of viewpoints represented in policy processes, 141 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 5: even if it might not look like that from the outside. 142 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 5: I have this one vivid memory from the process when 143 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 5: I was helping to write this government commission report on 144 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 5: a new climate policy or Norway towards twenty fifty were 145 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 5: I and a group of people were sitting inside the 146 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 5: Ministry of Climate and Environment writing this new report, and 147 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 5: then suddenly all of the entrances to the ministry were 148 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 5: blocked by activists, including Great Tatunberg, And it was such 149 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 5: an absurd feeling sitting inside this ministry actually writing a 150 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 5: report that tried to make many of the same points 151 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 5: that the protesters were making. Right, The point is not 152 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 5: to say that, you know, protesters should go more easy 153 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 5: on the institutions or anything like that to the country. 154 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 5: I think a strong voice outside these buildings really help 155 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 5: build momentum for change inside them. But I would say, 156 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 5: at least for these activists, it should be a reason 157 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 5: for hope that most of the times you could count 158 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 5: on the fact that at least someone within these institutions 159 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 5: are actually echoing some of your points, and so by 160 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 5: making a strong case outside, you're actually strengthening some voices inside, 161 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 5: and you should be maybe looking for allies within these institutions. 162 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: This example reinforces carry Norga's point the collective action is vital. 163 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 2: Strong visible activism outside government can reinforce voices working for 164 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: change inside. Public pressure strengthens the internal advocates who are 165 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: shaping policy behind the scenes. And this isn't just theory. 166 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: Public pressure recently pushed the Norwegian government to divest the 167 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 2: oil fund from Israeli companies tied to the genocide in Gaza. 168 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 2: It also influenced the moratorium on seabed mining and shaped 169 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 2: responses to indigenous Sami rights violations too. So Norwegians aren't 170 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: powerless in the face of oil industry rhetoric. 171 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 6: Far from it. 172 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: Public opinion plays an important role in shaping the political landscape, 173 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 2: providing it's loud and clear. What we think of as 174 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: normal shapes what we do and say. But normal isn't fixed. 175 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: It shifts over time as people see what others are 176 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 2: doing and saying. In Norway, as we discussed in the 177 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 2: first episode of this series, the tendency towards self censorship 178 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,119 Speaker 2: and not rocking the boat can high how much attitudes 179 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: are changing. When polling makes that visible. What once seemed 180 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: fringe starts to feel mainstream, giving people confidence to speak up, 181 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 2: act and push their leaders to respond. And for those 182 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 2: who can't or don't wish to protest publicly, there's another 183 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 2: powerful way to drive change, the right to vote. Sillia 184 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: ask Lundberg, head of north Sea Campaigning at Oil Change International, 185 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: shares insight on how Norwegians might align their votes with 186 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 2: their values. 187 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 4: In terms of oil and gas policy. Fifty percent ish 188 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 4: of the general public wants to stop exploring for new 189 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 4: oil and gas or to slow down exploration, so they 190 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 4: want some kind of reduction, and the parties that support 191 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 4: that and have party manifestos that are in line with that, 192 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 4: that would be m the gear. So the Green Party 193 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 4: es the Socialist Left Party, then slid the Liberal Party 194 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 4: and wret the Red Party. 195 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: In the recent national election, several of the parties stillia 196 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: mentioned those advocating to slow or stop new oil exploration 197 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 2: made significant gains. These outcomes point to an appetite for change. 198 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 2: But even in a relatively open political system like Norway's, 199 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 2: where citizens often have direct access to decision makers, policy 200 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 2: shifts don't happen automatically. They depend on debates carried out 201 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 2: in good faith with credible information at the center. Our 202 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 2: experts suggest that for people to support or critique climate policy, 203 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 2: they need to understand how ambitious or timid government proposals 204 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 2: really are, and they need tools to hold politicians accountable 205 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: for following through on their promises. That requires journalism to 206 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 2: play its part to moderate the debate, fact check the claims, 207 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 2: and make complex issues accessible, as well as to cover 208 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: major protests or actions when they happen. Too Yet, in Norway, 209 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 2: especially when it comes to oil, gas and climate politics, 210 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: we've heard in previous episodes how the press often struggles 211 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 2: to provide the level of scrutiny required as journalists. Writer 212 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 2: and project leader at the Norwegian Climate Foundation, Anakarr and 213 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 2: Sather explains the gap in critical climate literate journalism leaves 214 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: citizens without the reliable information they need to make informed choices. 215 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 7: Well, there's two few journalists that write about oil and 216 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 7: gas in a way. Back in the nineties we had 217 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 7: lots of oil journalists in a way, but now we 218 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 7: have too few experts in media and a lot of 219 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 7: people think that climate and energy politics in general are 220 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 7: complicated and they're afraid of doing something wrong. So among 221 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 7: the political journalists and commentators, there is hardly anything about 222 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 7: oil and gas. Perhaps that's also because there is normally 223 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 7: not conflict lines through the big parties, like between the 224 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 7: Conservatives and the Social Democrats. They agree on the oil 225 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 7: and gas politics, so that's part of the reason as well. 226 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 7: But I think the media should step up their game. 227 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 7: They just need to learn more about it and to 228 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 7: be more eager to learn. I think they have an 229 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 7: important role in shaping our minds and their hearts in 230 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 7: this area. 231 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 2: A recent PhD thesis on climate journalism confirms what Anna 232 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: Karen observes. Coverage of oil in Norway is minimal and 233 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: often shallow. The study concluded that quote journalism's ability to 234 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: highlight the climate oil connection in Norway is limited due 235 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: to oil industry hegemony and journalistic norms and routines end 236 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: quote in practice. As we've heard in previous episodes, this 237 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: means that much of the public discourse about oil is 238 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: untethered from the real environmental and social stakes of burning 239 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: fossil fuels. Considering the idea we've heard floated about the 240 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 2: social costs of acting outside perceived social norms, I asked 241 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 2: Ana Karen whether her outspokenness on oil and climate had 242 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: ever drawn pushback or professional consequences. 243 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 7: Not at all. And talk to everyone in oil and 244 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 7: everyone in politics. I haven't had any problems at all. 245 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 7: In social media, you can get criticism. You will be 246 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 7: portrayed as someone who is not smart enough to understand 247 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 7: how things really are, not smart enough to understand how 248 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 7: the economy is, or things like that. Scientists say that 249 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 7: it is the extremes that are most active in social media, 250 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 7: so that's understandable. But there's a huge movable middle that 251 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 7: we can communicate with and they may not raise their 252 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 7: voice that much, but they are there. They are listening. 253 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 7: That's what we have to work with to give them 254 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 7: facts and to give them some other stories than what 255 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 7: they are used to. 256 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 2: Reflecting back to carry nor guards call for courage, journalists 257 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: can take some comfort in Ana Khan's words, there is 258 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,119 Speaker 2: a receptive audience and a movable middle ready to engage. 259 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: The silence around oil won't break itself, but it can 260 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: be challenged through clear, persistent reporting that connects the dots. 261 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: Some have already been active in this work. For example, 262 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: Standout News reports on the activist group People Against Fossil 263 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: Power during the Ski World Championships told a compelling story 264 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: about regular citizens making a stand, made the connections between oil, 265 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: climate and the threat to winter sports, and followed the 266 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 2: interactions between activists, sports people and scientists through to its 267 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: successful conclusion. Elsewhere, As Anikarin explains, Norway's journalists need to 268 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: step up their game. The facts need to reach the 269 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 2: people and be connected to broader public debates. And even then, 270 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: another challenge remains accountability. Journalism's role doesn't end with exposure. 271 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: As author, journalist and climate data expert Catanjoshi explains, it 272 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: also means following up, tracing where the promises lead to action, 273 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 2: and applying pressure to make it so. 274 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 8: So now is pretty comparable with other countries that I 275 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 8: like to call progressive climate villains, which is, you know, 276 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 8: countries like Australia, countries like Canada that have center or 277 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 8: center left governments go to cop meetings with a lot 278 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 8: of sort of bluster and confidence, but really don't have 279 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 8: the numbers to back it up. We make progress. Our 280 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 8: transport sector is actually seeing a reduction in greenhouse gas 281 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 8: emissions due to the deployment of electric vehicles. These are 282 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 8: real numbers. It's going down it's good, but the question 283 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 8: is is it going down in line with what our 284 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 8: previous targets were, And no, it's not. Governments should be 285 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 8: held accountable, no matter whether you like them or hate them. 286 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 8: They should be held accountable to their promises, and if 287 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 8: they're failed, give them a chance to explain it. Maybe 288 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 8: there are good reasons, but to just refuse to check 289 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 8: is really bad. And just like the other countries that 290 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 8: I analyze, Norway is among the countries that really just 291 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 8: avoids the question. When people think about climate delay or 292 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 8: climate denial, they often think about things that are real problems, 293 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 8: like misinformation from the fossil fuel industry, or corruption among 294 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 8: politicians and companies. All of those things are really material 295 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 8: and significant. But I've become quite obsessed with hollowness and 296 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 8: emptiness of rhetoric, and I think Norway is among the 297 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 8: countries that knows how to make a good speech. But 298 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 8: when it comes to their actual accountability, that's when things 299 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 8: start falling apart a little bit. When emissions fail to 300 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 8: fall as fast as they should, part of it is 301 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 8: because we heard the right thing, but we didn't follow 302 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 8: up to check whether or not people did the right thing. 303 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: So my understanding is that the social cost of weak 304 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 2: climate journalism isn't just a less informed public. It also 305 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 2: gives politicians room to talk the talk without walking it. 306 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 2: Catan notes that Norway often sounds ambitious on the international stage, 307 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 2: but as we explored, when the previous episode, follow Through 308 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 2: tends to lag behind alongside visible activism, then journalism is 309 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 2: one of the clearest ways to push back against industry 310 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: influence when it falters. Oil doesn't just dominate politics. We've 311 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 2: heard how it seeps into culture, art, sport, and the 312 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: stories people tell themselves and each other about what it 313 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: means to be Norwegian. The report What is Norwegian Energy 314 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 2: Culture from Klimaculture, a nonprofit focused on climate, nature and justice, 315 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 2: documents the reach of this influence across public debate and 316 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 2: daily life. That's the thread we're pulling on here, how 317 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: oil's presence in everyday life shapes what Norwegians see is 318 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: normal and how it might finally be unpicked. Activism, voting, 319 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 2: and journalism all offer paths to change, but there are 320 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 2: other ways to loosen oil's grip too. Yuliafortschammer from Klimacutuur 321 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: suggests how Norway might begin to do so through alternative means, 322 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 2: drawing on moments of past leadership and change. 323 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 9: The very first thing we have to do is to 324 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 9: make people aware of how much the fossil funding is, 325 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 9: because in the culture sector it's really not that much money, 326 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 9: but it seems so much harder to stop it because 327 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 9: people are worth for the funding. But what we see 328 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 9: in the UK, where so many cultural institutions already have 329 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 9: kicked out fossil fuels, is that they have to do 330 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 9: it because the audience demanded. My dream for the culture 331 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 9: sector in Norway and also for sports is that children 332 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 9: and young people should not be exposed and should not 333 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,479 Speaker 9: be wearing logos advertising for companies who are actively hurting 334 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 9: this world. I think we should start to talk about 335 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 9: how Norway reacted to tobacco back in the seventies, Noah 336 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 9: being one of the countries in the world who was 337 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 9: the first to band tobacco advertising in nineteen seventy five. 338 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 9: And I think we really have to understand how bizarre 339 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 9: it is that someone advertising such a harmful product gets 340 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 9: so much access to our minds, to our children, to 341 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 9: everyone through them very rarely respected actors like schools, museums, arts, etc. 342 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 9: What we really need to start talking about in Norway 343 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 9: when it comes to petroganda, fossil fuel advertising, sponsorships, etc. 344 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 9: Is that it's becoming illegal. So many places in the 345 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 9: world right now, more and more cities and readients and 346 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 9: even countries are talking and have implemented fossil fuel advertising 347 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 9: bands fossil fuel sponsorship bands. So it's not even a 348 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 9: question about what is right or wrong and how do 349 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 9: you feel? And what about the money and all that 350 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 9: it could also become totally illegal. 351 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 2: Julia's point is pretty straightforward. If sponsorships and ads from 352 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 2: oil and gas companies help normalize their presence in everyday life, 353 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 2: then limiting that exposure could open space for new voices, 354 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 2: new partners, and a cultural life more in tune with 355 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: what she sees as Norway's core values. And Norway wouldn't 356 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: be starting from scratch. The country already has a history 357 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: of restricting advertising from industries that cause harm from tobacco, 358 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 2: go to junk food, and with similar bands on fossil 359 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: fuel promotion and gaining traction around the world supported by 360 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: voices as prominent as the United Nations, Norway would simply 361 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: be keeping step with its peers. Also, interestingly, the sums 362 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: of money involved here aren't immense. In a previous episode, 363 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 2: we heard how Norway's national oil company, Equinor, spends around 364 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: seven million dollars a year on cultural sponsorships, an amount 365 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 2: Yulia believes is small enough to be replaced by more 366 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: socially responsible partners. All of this suggests, at least to 367 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: me that the symbolic power of fossil sponsorship far outweighs 368 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: its financial scale. If the will exists, change is well 369 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 2: within reach, and the change might even already have started. 370 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: One of Norway's thirteen science centers, institutions we've heard criticized 371 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: for being amplifiers of petroganda, has explicitly refused to partner 372 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: with Equinor, stating that such a relationship would conflict with 373 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 2: their values. But thinking about Norway's fuel future isn't just 374 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 2: about who funds its culture or how public debate and 375 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: political accountability are strengthened. Sociologists carry more. God points out 376 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 2: that a deep belief in innovation and modernity runs through 377 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: the national psyche, shaping how the country approaches climate challenges 378 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 2: and what solutions feel possible in the first place. 379 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 3: Amongst the things that I've found really unique and really wonderful, 380 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 3: but also that maybe shape the particular ways that people 381 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 3: think about climate change include the sense that modernism is working. 382 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 3: There's a sense of optimism therefore in technology, and of 383 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 3: course this can be a wonderful thing. A sense of 384 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 3: optimism is very important if you're trying to solve problems. 385 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 3: There's a trajectory that the world has gotten better and better, 386 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 3: that technology works, and then climate change really can come 387 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 3: face to face a challenge that But if you aren't 388 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 3: as bought into the idea that the world is getting 389 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 3: better and better and that modernism is so universally a 390 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 3: good thing. For example, if you're a sami per, the 391 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 3: rise of Norwegian modernism has led to pretty severe atrocities 392 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 3: for indigenous peoples in Norway, then probably your sense of 393 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 3: whether we're falling off a cliff when it comes to 394 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 3: the future or whether were already in crisis is very different. 395 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 2: Carry points out that Norway has a deep belief that 396 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 2: innovation will solve the world's greatest problems, and whilst this 397 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: kind of optimism has benefits, it can also make deeper 398 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 2: systemic challenges harder to see and address. For example, we've 399 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 2: heard much about the faith and support Norwegian's throw behind 400 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: the likes of carbon capture and storage and blue hydrogen 401 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 2: despite their lack of genuine development and impact. But according 402 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 2: to Katan Joshi, imagining solutions to climate change is about 403 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 2: more than technological fixes. It's also about engaging with histories, lands, 404 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 2: and cultures that don't always fit the mainstream narrative. Norway's 405 00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 2: belief in progress, for instance, contrasts sharply with indigenous perspects, 406 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 2: especially those of Thesami, the indigenous people of northern Scandinavia, 407 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: whose culture and identity remain closely tied to the land. 408 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 2: Catan highlights the social and political consequences of Norway's so 409 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: called clean energy successes. Whilst celebrated for reducing emissions, he 410 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 2: explains that hydropower and wind power have often been implemented 411 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 2: with severe impacts on local and indigenous communities. This tension 412 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 2: between climate achievement on the one hand and social justice 413 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 2: on the other is key to understanding what a green 414 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 2: and just energy transition really means. 415 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 8: I'm thinking specifically about wind power and hydropower in Norway. 416 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 8: Both of these things were developed quite quickly and with 417 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,239 Speaker 8: really severe impacts on the indigenous communities in which they 418 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 8: were built. When is a bit more recent in memory, 419 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 8: a large development was found to have breached the human 420 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 8: rights of people living nearby, and so I think this 421 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 8: is a really important thing to consider that when we 422 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 8: brag about having very very clean electricity, a lot of 423 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 8: those developments were not done particularly well, and it's something 424 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 8: that should be made a little bit more prominent. I 425 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 8: think just because we did the right thing in terms 426 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 8: of greenhouse gas emissions doesn't mean that we did the 427 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,239 Speaker 8: right thing by communities where those projects are. 428 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 2: To understand more about the perspective of the Sami, I 429 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: spoke to Biaska Nilas, parliamentary leader of the Norwegian Sami Association, 430 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 2: who described the long history of oppression that the Sami 431 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: have faced at the hands of colonial powers, including Norway, 432 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 2: all the way through to the present day. Relations between 433 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: the Sami and the Norwegian government, he claimed, are strained, 434 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 2: especially regarding industries like mining, land based wind power, and 435 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 2: other incursions into Sami territory. Recent developments have triggered some 436 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 2: of the largest Sami protests in history, revealing how deeply climate, 437 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 2: energy and justice are intertwined in Norway today. Since many 438 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 2: of those cases have their roots in fossil fuels, as 439 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 2: well as the shift away from using them. Biasca emphasizes 440 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: how these realities challenge Norway's consumption driven so systems and 441 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 2: its fossil dependent economy. 442 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 10: The oil consumption in the world. It's a global drug addiction. 443 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 10: The capitalist system and the global economy is dependent on it. 444 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 10: And it's crazy how people regard this so called development 445 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 10: as a necessity. I think that's a really big difference 446 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 10: between mindset of how we should regard, how we should 447 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,239 Speaker 10: treat how we should have relationship with the land and 448 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 10: with nature and also with the water. 449 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 2: Biasca described a number of ongoing protests and court cases, 450 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 2: including a copper mine in the ripper Field or rip 451 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 2: of Watna in the North, and land based wind farms 452 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 2: planned for the electrification of a gas plant in Melca 453 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 2: near Hammerfest, a town we heard in a previous episode 454 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 2: was resurrected by fossil fuels. 455 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 10: In some areas, we still have clean water, we still 456 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 10: have land, we still have resources that can vedos for eternity, 457 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 10: but those won't last very long if the industrialization and 458 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 10: the capital gets the rule from much longer. The copper 459 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 10: mine in Uppowotne is portrayed as very necessary for the 460 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 10: green transition. But when we look where that energy is going, 461 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 10: what they are building with that copper, then it's only 462 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 10: to grow and make more and more money. It's a 463 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 10: new land enclounchment process, but now painted with green, and 464 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 10: it's devastating effects for the semi culture, not only reindeer herders, 465 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 10: but also every other that is dependent on the land. 466 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 10: We have seen in the last ten years also that 467 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 10: the Norwegian majority has realized how bad this is for nature, 468 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 10: destroying that area for the use that has been their 469 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 10: time immemorial. So for us wind power said, but true, 470 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 10: it's not green or sustainable at all. It's the biggest 471 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 10: land grabber and biggest land intruder there is right now. 472 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 2: In fact, land based wind power has become one of 473 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 2: Norway's most debated environmental issues. The government's national framework for 474 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: wind development was firmly rejected in twenty nineteen, largely over 475 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 2: concerns about impacts on the very landscapes Norwegians cherish and 476 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 2: that the PSAMI consider sacred. These debates show just how 477 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 2: complex a green and just transition can be. From my 478 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: own research into Norway's win power conflicts. I found that 479 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 2: whilst most people agree changes needed, they often disagree on 480 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 2: what that change should actually look like. Biasca believes that 481 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: before this tension can truly be resolved, a much deeper 482 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 2: transformation has to take place within Norwegian society itself. 483 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 10: Norway is in the world leading class of overconsumption. They 484 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 10: think that this is necessary for a good life, and 485 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 10: it crashes very much with my world review. The myth 486 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 10: is that the Norwegian nation is a nature loving skiing 487 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 10: nation that likes to go into the mountains and enjoy 488 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 10: the fresh air. Where a healthy nation with good values 489 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 10: and with good politics. But when they many of them 490 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 10: go home, they go home to work in the oil fields, 491 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 10: they go home to to work in extractive industries, they 492 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 10: go home to stock markets. The main value seems now 493 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 10: to make money, to make wealth. Norway has more billionaires 494 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 10: per capital and USA. Many of those obviously comes from 495 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,719 Speaker 10: extractive industries. The problem is people have too much money, 496 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 10: and people care about money too much. So then we 497 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 10: get in this catch twenty two where the chase is 498 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 10: to build some a little more on the house, have 499 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 10: our second cabin, maybe have car number three, and that's 500 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 10: regarded as the good life. Norwegians are a desservant of 501 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 10: this because we are such a good country that does 502 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 10: good in the world, and we have such good welfare 503 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 10: systems in place, so this can't be bad. So I 504 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 10: think many people are ignorant of the facts. 505 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: Baska explains that while Norway sees itself as a healthy, 506 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: nature loving nation, many of the same people who ski 507 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 2: and hike can spend time in the forest work in 508 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 2: extractive industries. Believes wealth and consumption have become dominant values, 509 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 2: replacing the ideals of simplicity and care for nature, rewriting 510 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 2: what he believes Norwegians considered to be the good life. 511 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 2: This pursuit of wealth, he explains, fuels over consumption, bigger houses, 512 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 2: second cabins, more cars. This a cruel of stuff, combined 513 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 2: with Norway's strong welfare state and moral self image, makes 514 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,719 Speaker 2: it hard for people to see that this way of 515 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 2: life may actually be part of the problem. Instead, Biasca 516 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 2: believes Norwegians could learn much from the Sami philosophy of 517 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 2: Bidgi Up. 518 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 10: Meh Bigeups basically, not to take more than you need 519 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 10: as loang. As you take care of the land, the 520 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 10: land will take care of you. And this is in 521 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 10: every aspect of the land. It's the animals, the fish, 522 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 10: it's their plant syst would, it's the water, it's everything. 523 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 10: To be able to sustain yourself with the land, you 524 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 10: have to know the land intimately. It's a whole universe 525 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 10: of knowledge in that one single word is not only 526 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 10: about the resources and the relationship. It's about knowledge you 527 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 10: have to have and learn, and you learn it from 528 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 10: the land, and you learn it from your relatives, you 529 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 10: learn it from the parts of nature that don't speak. 530 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 10: So it's deeply rooted in respect. It's not a coincidence 531 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 10: that the rest of the wilderness and biodiversity is in 532 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 10: onnindigenous people's land. That's not a coincidence. So leave those 533 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 10: lands alone and then study how do the indigenous peoples 534 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 10: use the land, and then start to consider maybe we 535 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 10: should do the same. Maybe we should dismantle those dams, 536 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 10: Maybe we should dismantle those turbines, Maybe we don't have 537 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 10: to buy the third car, and so forth, and try 538 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 10: to see what happiness really can be about. The most 539 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 10: unhappy people are the richest people, and that's not a 540 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 10: coincidence at all. So maybe take a hard look on 541 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 10: consumption and what is really needed for a good life. 542 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 2: Baasca's reflections reveal a sharp contrast between Norway's image as 543 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: a nature loving, prosperous nation and the realities of extraction 544 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 2: over consumption and environmental loss. But within Sami philosophy lies 545 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 2: an alternative approach bidgiub me taking only what you need, 546 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 2: sustaining the land, and maintaining deep knowledge of ecosystems. For Biasca, 547 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,239 Speaker 2: these values aren't just a critique of modernity. They're a 548 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: guide towards a more sustainable and balanced way of life, 549 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 2: one that could inspire Norwegians to rethink their own path. 550 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,959 Speaker 2: After all that we've heard in this series, I imagine 551 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 2: that for some Norwegians, taking inspiration from a culture that 552 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 2: has historically stood in opposition to their sense of progress 553 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 2: and development may feel challenging. So I found it particularly 554 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 2: interesting speaking with Runa Jaro Rasmussen, a professor of Nordic religion, 555 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 2: who made it clear that many of the same ideas 556 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 2: prominent in the Sami worldview once shaped how Norwegians themselves 557 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 2: related to the world. Long before the rise of oil 558 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: and modern industry, the people of the North lived within 559 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 2: a worldview known as Nordic animism, one where humans were 560 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 2: part of nature's web, not living in opposition to it. 561 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 2: Runa explains that while those beliefs were largely displaced by 562 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 2: Christianity and modernization, their traces remain in small rituals, old stories, 563 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: and seasonal traditions that quietly keep this older relationship alive. 564 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 6: Animism in a global perspective is pretty much everywhere, and 565 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 6: there's always culture bound focus on specific places because it's 566 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 6: about building relation to those beings that we share, for instance, 567 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 6: our landscapes with, so that a different locally relevant aspects 568 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 6: relating to specific kinds of landscapes, water bodies, rocks and mountains, 569 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,919 Speaker 6: and specific landscape relations like a bear in northern Scandinavia, 570 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 6: raven seals in southern Scandinavia, storks and so on. There's 571 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 6: a specific cycle of light in in northern Europe, we 572 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 6: experience rather marked light difference between summer and winter, and 573 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 6: you see that very much reflected in the animists relating 574 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 6: to the changing seasons. If you go to the northern 575 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 6: part of Scandinavia where there are bears in the landscape, 576 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 6: then relating to bears is a really important part of 577 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 6: relating to that landscape. But Sami people do it too, 578 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 6: and finish people who live and inhabit those same landscapes 579 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 6: also build relation to bears. Our nationalistic perspective would tend 580 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 6: to say, okay, so there's something that is somehow essentially 581 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 6: an inherently Norwegian, But when you actually look at Norwegian animisms, 582 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 6: you find that they're very closely aligned with Sami animisms. 583 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 6: I think Norway is blessed with very rich animists tradition 584 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 6: that has survived comparatively for a very long time. I'm 585 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 6: sometimes astonished when I'm in Norway and I'm engaging people 586 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 6: up there of how alive some of these things are there. Also, 587 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 6: Norway has a nationalist heritage. There's a tradition of valorizing 588 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 6: the old stuff. There is a preparedness to engage with 589 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 6: these things also often in very renewing ways, where these 590 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 6: things are being pulled in and sort of being playfully 591 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 6: made into something very contemporary. 592 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: For Aruna, revisiting these older worldviews isn't about longing for 593 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 2: the past. It's about recognizing what still lives within Norwegian 594 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 2: culture today. Because in a sense, we've come full circle. 595 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 2: As we heard in the first episode of the series. 596 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 2: Norway built its national identity around a revival of the 597 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 2: Norse kingdom, its myths, its heroes, and its deep connection 598 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 2: to nature. Those stories helped define what it meant to 599 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 2: be Norwegian, and as sociologists carry Norguard emphasized, those same 600 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 2: narratives about nature, relationships, and identity continue to shape how 601 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,800 Speaker 2: Norwegians understand their place in the world and their response 602 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 2: to the climate crisis. So when Runa speaks about Nordic animism, 603 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 2: he's not reaching for something distant or mystical. He's revealing 604 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 2: a continuity, another thread that runs from ancient beliefs through 605 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 2: the founding of modern Norway to the present day. It's 606 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,240 Speaker 2: a reminder that the resources for change aren't just technological 607 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 2: or political. They're also cultural, rooted in the stories that 608 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,399 Speaker 2: built the nation itself. And among those old stories, one 609 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 2: stands out to Runa as especially relevant today, a myth 610 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 2: about destruction and renewal, about the possibility of starting again. 611 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 2: That story is Ragnarok. 612 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 6: There are nodes in the animist way of thinking that 613 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 6: a build to reach a lot of people. These are stories, 614 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 6: they're made to be retold for millennia. That's why they're 615 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 6: still here because they have an incredible resilience and capacity 616 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 6: to speak to our deep cognition. So if you have 617 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,800 Speaker 6: a story like the Ragnaroch story from the Nordic mythology, 618 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 6: which is a story I think about how lost connectivity 619 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,399 Speaker 6: ends up in ecological and social collapse, that is an 620 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 6: apocalyptic story. It is written in one of the most 621 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 6: monumentally impressive, beautiful poems ever written. It has a lot 622 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 6: of capau to speak with that story. When you talk 623 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 6: about climate change and what have the people been doing, 624 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 6: They've been writing two thousand pages long you and climate 625 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 6: reports that are filled with topsoil erosion and methane beliefs, 626 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 6: coefficients and ocean acidification. Nobody reads them, nobody understands them, 627 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 6: and they have not changed a hair in how the 628 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 6: global communities relate to the world. Now that that is 629 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 6: a failure of storytelling. We have not been able to 630 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 6: produce motivating narratives that can basically reach people and motivate them, 631 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 6: interchanging how the world actually works. This material has that potential. 632 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 2: Stories like Ragnarok and the animist narratives that Runa describes 633 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 2: are lessons in connection, balance, and consequence. Throughout this series. 634 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 2: We've heard myths that justify the status quo, stories of 635 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 2: progress and pragmatism that keep oil at the center of 636 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 2: Norwegian life. But Ragnarok points in another direction, towards renewal 637 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 2: and the courage to begin again. Runa explains how this 638 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 2: story told thousands of years ago can still cut deeper 639 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 2: than the latest climate report, and that's a strong reminder 640 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 2: that facts alone rarely moves societies. Imagination and emotion have 641 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 2: a major part to play too. For a country like 642 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 2: Norway that places such faith in reason and innovation, it's 643 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,240 Speaker 2: a reminder that change is also a matter of meaning, 644 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 2: of what people value and the stories they choose to 645 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 2: live by. In this episode, a pattern has emerged tackling 646 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 2: the paradoxes at the heart of Norway's identity aren't just 647 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 2: about technology or emissions. They're also about culture, from people 648 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 2: speaking up to journalism that holds power to account, confronting 649 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 2: fossil influence in sport and the arts, to embracing different 650 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 2: ways of engaging with nature and community. The threads of 651 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 2: change being spun here are many and interconnected, and the 652 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 2: work to weave them into something bigger is already underway. 653 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 2: Communities and organizations across Norway are already imagining what it 654 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 2: might mean to live without the influence of fossil fuels. 655 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 2: The Beyond Oil Conference in Bergen celebrated its tenth anniversary 656 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,760 Speaker 2: this year, convening leading minds to explore alternatives. Oslow's recent 657 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 2: Citizens Assembly explored new forms of governance that reflect what 658 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 2: people truly care about, and local initiatives. Gatherings and symposiums 659 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 2: all over the country are experimenting and building movements around 660 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,399 Speaker 2: practices that prioritize well being, stewardship, and collective care rather 661 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 2: than profit growth and endless consumption. From conferences to culture halls, 662 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 2: think tanks, to political parties and beyond, these developments show 663 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 2: that there is a deep hunger and a powerful capacity 664 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 2: for change. Modern Norway was born from imagination, reviving an 665 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 2: ancient kingdom, revitalizing its connection to the land, and writing 666 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 2: its people into legend. Throughout this series, we've heard how 667 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 2: that vision helped shape Norway's sense of self as a 668 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 2: nature loving nation and a force for good in the world, 669 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 2: and how that all now comes into tension with the 670 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,800 Speaker 2: realities of a fossil fuel economy that's accelerating the climate crisis, 671 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 2: But as sociologists carry nor Guard reminds us, the courage 672 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 2: to take on daunting challenges and perilous conditions has always 673 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 2: been part of Norway's story, and we've already heard plenty 674 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 2: of that courage from those who raise questions, speak out, 675 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 2: take action, and imagine doing things differently. Pushing back against 676 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 2: the influence of oil and gas. In Freeloft sleeve the 677 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 2: outdoor life at the heart of Norwegian culture, one of 678 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 2: the core tenets is they are at ing and scum 679 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 2: or snooth. There is no shame in turning back or 680 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 2: changing direction when the conditions demand it, and the conditions 681 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,879 Speaker 2: have changed. Oil is no longer essential to Norway's prosperity, 682 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 2: and continued production undermines the country's own ideals of fairness, 683 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 2: care and responsibility. By pulling out the black thread oil 684 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 2: and curbing the influence fossil fuels have over its politics, 685 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 2: culture and daily life, Norway can begin to shape its 686 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 2: next chapter, life after Oil. The Black Thread is a 687 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 2: collaboration between communicy In Climate Change and Klimacule Tour. It 688 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,799 Speaker 2: was written and narrated by Dick and Bonvickstone, produced and 689 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 2: edited by lever Solid Schulearud and the executive producer was 690 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 2: vigdis Bonvickstone art work is by Anya Jimushkevich. For more information, 691 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:15,760 Speaker 2: see the show notes