1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 2: It did get very violent in a personal way. 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 3: The Hatfield McCoy feud is especially fascinating because the passions 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 3: were raised over a lot of different disagreements. Love stories 5 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 3: because they were so intermingled. The complexities of human nature 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 3: are very apparent in fun to explore in some ways. 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 10 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 11 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 14 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make and bad. It's a 17 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: deep dive into the stories behind the stories. I love 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: a good family feud story, and you really can't beat 19 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: the tale of the Hatfields and the McCoys. But there's 20 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: so much more to this story than you think. Author 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: Dean King tells us about who they were, why they 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: hated each other, and why the feud ended, all from 23 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: his new book called The Feud, The hat Fields and 24 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: McCoy's The True Story. 25 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 3: You know, really, this is one of America's founding stories. 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 3: It says so much about the American character. That's something 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 3: that I discovered as I was researching the book. I 28 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 3: knew it was a fascinating story with incredible characters in 29 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 3: this beautiful and sometimes angry part of the country. I 30 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 3: didn't really fully understand how much it said about us 31 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 3: until I really got steep in it and went there 32 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 3: and met the people and studied the history more. I 33 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 3: think one it tells us a lot about what it 34 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 3: means to be an American. I think it tells us 35 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 3: a lot about human nature in a place where law 36 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 3: and order is not a given. And I think it 37 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 3: tells us a lot about the complexity of a story 38 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 3: and what history. 39 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 2: Might do to it. 40 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 3: Over time, it's gotten streamlined, and you know, it's become 41 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 3: a caricature of itself. It's made it into cartoons and 42 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 3: common vernacular. But when you really unravel it again and 43 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 3: go back and look at the details and the human 44 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 3: beings involved, it's all the more fascinating. 45 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: What is the reaction journal you get when you have 46 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 1: said to people, I've written a book about the Hatfields 47 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: and the McCoys. Are they kind of like, well, we've 48 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: heard this story before. 49 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: You might get some eye rolls. 50 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 3: A bunch of country bumpkins toothless moonshine and hillbilly's. 51 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: And killing each other. 52 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 53 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, Unfortunately that's the stereotype. 54 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 3: In some ways. It couldn't be further from the truth. 55 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 3: It's a real disservice to these people. The people who 56 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 3: live in West Virginia and Kentucky, in these parts of 57 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 3: West Virginia and Kentucky take it very seriously to this day, 58 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 3: and it's important that we not marginalize them by accepting 59 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 3: these sometimes ridiculous caricatures of these people. 60 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: Give me an overview. Are we talking about a few 61 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: that lasts several hundred years, that starts a little pre 62 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: Civil war? And how many people are dead? Is there 63 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: like an epicenter? How do you look at it? Globally? 64 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 3: It lasted for me about three decades from the Civil 65 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 3: War the killing of Harmon McCoy to eighteen ninety when 66 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 3: one Hatfield was scapegoaded for all the violence in hung 67 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 3: in Pikeville, and those books in the Feud you can 68 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 3: go on because there were some more arrests after that, 69 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 3: and there's some more family stories about what the Hatfields 70 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 3: were doing and the McCoys were doing, and that eighteen 71 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 3: ninety hanging of a hat Field pretty much ended the 72 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 3: direct confrontations between the Hatfields and McCoy's. 73 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: Where does the story begin for you? 74 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it really goes back to the founding of the 75 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 3: nation in some ways, but I would say the Civil 76 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 3: War is for me where the feud really ignited. 77 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: So you had Hatfield's and. 78 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 3: McCoy's moving into this remote part of what was Virginia 79 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: and then Kentucky. After the Revolutionary War, soldiers were rewarded 80 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 3: with property, often on the frontier where they could go 81 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 3: and set up a farm, and of course because there 82 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 3: were soldiers, they could then for themselves, and often they 83 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 3: were fighting the Native American tribes that were already there. 84 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 3: These two families got there and really they intermarried, They 85 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 3: were business partners, they were close in a lot of ways. 86 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 2: They were like any kind of people. They had their ups. 87 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 3: And downs, but they were in the Tug River Valley, 88 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 3: which is on the border today of Kentucky and West Virginia, 89 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 3: southern West Virginia because they became split by the Kentucky 90 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 3: Virginia line. It was an unnatural division. It ran right 91 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 3: down the middle of that river valley. And in eighteen 92 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 3: forty nine, Hatfield's McCoys together petitioned the state of Virginia 93 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 3: and said, hey, look, we're one community. 94 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: We should be in one state. Can you make this 95 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: all part of Virginia. 96 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: And I believe that if that, in fact had happened, 97 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 3: there never would have been a Hatfield McCoy feud. Wow, 98 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 3: it didn't happen. So they ended up on the opposite 99 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 3: sides during the Civil War. 100 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,559 Speaker 1: Okay, I might need a little history reminder here. 101 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 3: The politics are a little complicated there. When the Civil 102 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 3: War broke out, Kentucky was neutral at first, and it 103 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 3: would go Union. This part of Virginia would secede from 104 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 3: Virginia in eighteen sixty three and go with the Union. 105 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: But that part of West Virginia, the southern part, were 106 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 3: very much allied with the Confederacy, and those guys were 107 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 3: loyal to the Confederacy to the end. 108 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 2: It's a little confusing. 109 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: Tell me which family went with which group. 110 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 3: Then in the war, it would be fun to be 111 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 3: able to go boom, you know, very simple divisions here. 112 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: But what happened really wasn't. 113 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 3: The McCoy's were in Kentucky and they re Union, and 114 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 3: the Hatfields were in Virginia and they became Confederates. 115 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 2: All the hat. 116 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 3: Fields and McCoy's in Virginia went with the Confederacy. All 117 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 3: the Hatfields of McCoy's in Kentucky pretty much went with 118 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: the Union. 119 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 2: Now there were some important exceptions to that. 120 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 3: Randall McCoy, who would be the patriarch of the McCoy 121 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 3: family in the feud, lived in Kentucky, but his allegiance 122 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 3: was with the Confederacy, and he fought side by side 123 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 3: with mister Hatfield before their infamous feud broke out. And 124 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 3: then there was one particular McCoy, Harmon McCoy, the brother 125 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 3: of Randall, who was in Kentucky and fought for the Union, 126 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 3: and he was what the feud broke out over. 127 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 2: Because there was so much anger along this border. 128 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 3: There was rating back and forth, and you know, maybe 129 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 3: on a typical border on a war, you don't have 130 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 3: personal feelings, but here you had one community and everybody 131 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 3: knew each other. On the other side, if you went 132 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: over and raided on one side and took somebody's cows 133 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 3: or their horses or whatever, it as opposed to an 134 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: act of war, it was more like thievery to them. 135 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 3: You knew these people who were taking your animals, and 136 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 3: it wasn't fair, and it created a bitter anger inner 137 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 3: family rivalries. Sometimes you had hatfield's defending McCoy's, McCoy's defending Hatfields, 138 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 3: just because they were on opposite side. 139 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 2: So it's very complex, and. 140 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: Boy, that's certainly not the way that it's drawn in history. 141 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: Just popular culture, it really does seem like it is 142 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: one family against the other. It sounds like to me, 143 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: we discount how intermingled they really were, and that made 144 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: it so much more complicated. 145 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: We do, and I think it was part of the 146 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 3: fuel that made this fire so hot, as well as 147 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 3: that when you are intermarried and you are family, when 148 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 3: those divisions are created, they're all the more angry because 149 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 3: you have these close relationships. Even today when I was there, 150 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 3: you will meet Hatfields, some McCoys who are marrying again, 151 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 3: and you will meet Hatfields McCoys who are still angry 152 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: at the other family and who are still really studying 153 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 3: this history and arguing over the points of the history. 154 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: So we talked a little bit about the intermingling of 155 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: the families and where they are located geographically. What is 156 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: everybody doing for a living? I mean, what is life like, 157 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: let's say, pre Civil War at this point, pre major 158 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: controversy at this point, what is it like to be 159 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: a hatfielder of McCoy. 160 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: Well, a very rugged territory. 161 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 3: The Appalachian Mountains are the oldest mountains, very convoluted, isolated. 162 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 3: As the country sort of moved west, that pocket of 163 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 3: Appalachia was kind of left behind in some ways. But 164 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 3: it was kind of hard scrabble farming. It was tough 165 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 3: to make a living there. But they were tough people, 166 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 3: extremely self reliant. They made their own whiskey, I mean moonshine. 167 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: At the time, this wasn't an illicit thing. It was 168 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 3: a medicine. It was something that they brought with them 169 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: from Scotland and from the old world that was very 170 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 3: important to their way of life. So when at tax 171 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 3: was slapped on it and they were told that they 172 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 3: couldn't do it. It was like saying you couldn't grow 173 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 3: your own corn. They hunted for a living. They would 174 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 3: use the cold to heat their homes. The nation started 175 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 3: seeing value to that part of Appalachia because of its 176 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 3: timber resources and its coal resources, and corporations started looking 177 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 3: at it with hungry eyes. 178 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: Who were the major players here, describe them for me 179 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: how this whole thing starts. The legend of this feud 180 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: between these two families. 181 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 3: You have Devil's Hatfield's family on one side and Randall 182 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 3: McCoy's family on the other side. Sixteen kids on one 183 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 3: thirteen on the other. Big families, sprawling families, lots of 184 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 3: aunts and uncles, Families that also would have to spread 185 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 3: out because there were limited resources. They needed to keep 186 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: moving and trying to grow to sustain themselves. They were 187 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 3: not educated in school often, but they were very sharp, 188 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 3: witty people. They lived in the countryside in West Virginia. 189 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: Would go to Logan, the county seat in Pike County, Kentucky. 190 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 3: You would go to Pikeville, the county seat there, and 191 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 3: they had connections. Because they had big families. They controlled 192 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 3: the politics in the area, and so the state politicians 193 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 3: had to heed their control and take care of them 194 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 3: in some ways because they could deliver the vote on 195 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 3: election day. And on election days they would come down 196 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 3: out of the hills. They would wear their finest clothes, 197 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 3: they would bring their best food, jugs of moonshine. 198 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: This was a social time. 199 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 3: It was a time they courted, it was time they 200 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 3: did business and learn the news of the area. 201 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: What's the first major incident here? 202 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 2: Historians argue over every point of the feud from the 203 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: beginning to the end, but we're going to believe you. 204 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, there were several different incidents that created the feud, 205 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 3: and the first was right at the end of the 206 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 3: Civil War. 207 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: Let's start then with the murder of Herman McCoy. 208 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 3: All during the war because the border there's a river there, 209 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 3: but it was all so fuzzy because you had haffields 210 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 3: of McCoy's, you know, on either side, and you had 211 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 3: home guards that were raiding back and forth. Devil Ance 212 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 3: lived in the woods. He would work his farm during 213 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: the day when he wasn't out fighting, because they had 214 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 3: to grow food to sustain their families. Yet he knew 215 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 3: that it was possible that there might be a nighttime raid, 216 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 3: and so he would go out and camp out in 217 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:50,719 Speaker 3: the woods, and the same thing was happening on the 218 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 3: Kentucky side. His house was raided and burned down, and 219 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 3: his wife and son were thrown out, and you can 220 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: imagine the bitterness that creates, and so there were raids 221 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 3: back and forth. 222 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 2: By the time the war was. 223 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 3: Concluding, it was not concluding for these people because they 224 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 3: had pent up anger, grudges, and scores to settle. Future 225 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 3: President Garfield was a Union commander who sort of controlled 226 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 3: Kentucky early on, and as he was leaving, one of 227 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 3: his officers said, this thing's going to go on a 228 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 3: long time after the war. They already knew it. Harmon 229 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 3: McCoy was one of the steadfast Union fighters. In the 230 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 3: McCoy family, there were a couple of steadfast Confederate fighters, 231 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 3: uncles of devil ants, and so at the end of 232 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 3: the war it wasn't over. And when Harmon came back, 233 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 3: poor guy, he had been wounded several times during the war. 234 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 3: He really just wanted to get back to his family. 235 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 3: But the Hatfields weren't done yet. They came over and 236 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 3: rat it. They took potshots at him. He headed out 237 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: and hid in the cave for a while. Eventually they 238 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 3: tracked him down and executed him again. Some historians say 239 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 3: this didn't begin the feud because Randall didn't avenge it 240 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 3: right away. It's possible and even probable that Randall was 241 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 3: in a Union prison at the time. That there's not 242 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 3: proof of that, and that might have been one reason 243 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 3: why he didn't avenge it right away. But it will 244 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 3: turn out that Harmon McCoy's sons are later in a 245 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 3: rating party that goes over to hunt Hatfields later in 246 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 3: the feud, so it's clearly part of the feud. 247 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 2: Not much happened until. 248 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 3: Randall McCoy's hog went missing and he found it in 249 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 3: a Hatfield hog pen. 250 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: You know, it's easy to sort of laugh at a 251 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: hog creating a. 252 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 3: Feud from our perspective today, but back then, when you 253 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 3: were living very much hand of mouth, farming your own food, 254 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 3: the slaughter of a hog in the fall was what 255 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 3: got you through the winner, and it was extremely important. 256 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: If you didn't have your hog, you'd have a hard, 257 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: tough winner. 258 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 3: And so wasn't something to be scoffed at this dispute 259 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 3: over Randall's hog. So he found it in Lloyd Hatfield's 260 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 3: hog pen Randall accused him of stealing the hog, and 261 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 3: they ended up. 262 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: Going to a trial. There. 263 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 3: The Justice of the peace was Anderson Hatfield, Preacher Ants. 264 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 3: Hatfield Preacher Ants was in Kentucky, and he was a 265 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 3: wise man. He knew that this was going to be 266 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 3: problematic at Hatfield McCoy going to court, so as his jurors, 267 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 3: he picked six McCoys and six Hatfields, and so he 268 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 3: couldn't be accused of favoritism. 269 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: So there just weren't enough independent jurors. Is that what happened? 270 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 2: Well, you have these two powerful families. 271 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 3: Imagine if you weren't a Hatfield McCoy and we're sitting 272 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 3: on that jury, it wouldn't work. 273 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 2: Out for you either way. 274 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 3: So it was all Hatfield's McCoy's and Preacherance was a 275 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 3: very respected guy. They all came fully armed and he 276 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 3: made everybody put their weapons aside. He gave them a 277 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 3: stern talking to and said, don't take family sides. 278 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 2: Let's decide this right. 279 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 3: One man testified that he had seen Floyd mark this 280 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 3: hog himself. They had markings, They branded them by clipping 281 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 3: their ears, and then they let them go. This is 282 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 3: how this happened. They would let the hogs go through 283 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: most of the year. The hogs would fe in the woods, 284 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: off the mass the acorns and things, and then when 285 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 3: it came time to bring their hogs into the fall, 286 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: they would go out and collect them. 287 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: So my understanding is that the tag would get kind 288 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: of crunched up so you couldn't read the owner's name. 289 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 2: You know, Randall said it was his, and Floyd said, 290 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: this is my hog. 291 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 3: And so you have Bill Stateton testifying though he's married 292 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 3: to a McCoy, testifying for Floyd. And then in the 293 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 3: trial you have Selkirk McCoy siding with Floyd Hatfield. Now 294 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 3: he was a McCoy, but he worked on devil Antce's 295 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 3: Timber Crew. 296 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, so here again. Yeah, you know it. 297 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: Ain't a map. I mean, I don't know how you 298 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: can recall all of these names. 299 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: It's very complicated. 300 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: What kind of reputation does each family have As far 301 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: as temperament goes, the. 302 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 2: McCoy's were known for having this very fiery temperament. 303 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: More than the Hatfield more. 304 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 2: So than the Hatfields. And you find it even today. 305 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 3: The McCoys are very detail oriented, more type A I 306 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 3: would say, and the Hatfields are more laid back. Now, 307 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 3: you're gonna find exceptions, but in general, as I was researching, 308 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 3: that's what I found. 309 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 2: The hat Fields were a lot of fun to hang 310 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: out with. 311 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 3: Sit around the campfire, play music, maybe sip some of 312 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 3: the moonshine that's floating around today that they're still good 313 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 3: at making. And the McCoys were maybe more on top 314 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 3: of their details. Both sides very sharp and interesting folks. 315 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 3: But Randall was very upset by the outcome of this. 316 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: Because the case involving the hog didn't turn out in 317 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: the McCoy's favor. 318 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: You know, within two years, two nephews of his would 319 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 2: murder Bill Stateon's son. 320 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: So two McCoy's would murder the son of the man 321 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: who testified on behalf of the hat Fields. 322 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 3: Yes, these two McCoys would go into hiding. They would 323 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 3: eventually come out of hiding. They would be tried again 324 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 3: by Hatfield and let off, you know, on the basis 325 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 3: of self defense. 326 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: Huh. So this is a lot more complicated than just 327 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: the hat Fields versus the McCoy's when you. 328 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 3: Step back and look at it from a long time 329 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 3: ago and want to simplify everything, very black and white. 330 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 2: It's just not that way. 331 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: Do you think part of that is the stereotype of 332 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: the country person in the mountains, This is how they 333 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: settle their disputes. 334 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: I do. I think we're fascinated with that stereotype different nations. Certainly, 335 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: we're trying to define America. What makes American different? Who 336 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: are they? 337 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 3: This was a stereotype that really fit the narrative they 338 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 3: wanted to tell New York City. The big newspapers. When 339 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: they saw one particular event where there was a midnight 340 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 3: raid and a house burning and a woman was killed 341 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 3: in the battle, and it really crossed the lines of 342 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 3: men fighting over power, they saw that would be an 343 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: explosive thing for the newspapers. 344 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: It occurred at. 345 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: The exact same time that Jack the Ripper was doing 346 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 3: his thing in England, and you will see in international 347 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 3: papers dueling headlines of the hatfields of McCoy's and Jack 348 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 3: the Ripper. Three newspapers in New York City sent down 349 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 3: ACE reporters, and so they went in to get the 350 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 3: stories and did a lot of reports in a lot 351 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 3: of ways. The best reporting that was done on the 352 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 3: feud in our best record of the feud. Yet it's 353 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 3: refuted and rejected by the locals because they were from 354 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 3: the city and they were condescending, and they did look 355 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 3: down on the people, and they wrote some pretty harsh things. 356 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: So let me catch us up. Harmon McCoy is killed 357 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: by the hat Fields, and then Randall McCoy accuses the 358 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: hat Fields of stealing his hog, but he loses that 359 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: case in court. 360 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 2: There's simmering anger there. We talked about the election days 361 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: when people came from their homes and socialized. The next 362 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: thing that spurred the feud on was an election day 363 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 2: where Devlantce's son Johncey, who was kind of a ladies man, 364 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 2: came to Kentucky for the eighteen eighty election and saw 365 00:17:46,880 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: Randall McCoy's daughter there and immediately fell in love with her. 366 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: We're talking with author Dean King about the hat Fields 367 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: and the McCoys. A young Hatfield and a young McCoy 368 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: have fallen in love, and obviously this can't end very well. 369 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 3: As the day wore on and the moonshine was passed 370 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 3: back and forth, Johncey and Roseanne McCoy went back into 371 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 3: West Virginia. 372 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 2: Johncey was still. 373 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 3: Living at the Hatfield Home and moved into the Hatfield Home. 374 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 3: Of course, they're not married. This is an affront to 375 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 3: the McCoy family. The McCoys get immediately incensed and very angry. 376 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 2: Rosanna's brothers are offended. 377 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 3: Johncey wants to marry Rosanna, but Randall McCoy refuses to 378 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 3: let that happen. Devil Ance is kind of enjoying this 379 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 3: maybe and not encouraging Rosanna to go home. And so 380 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 3: this carries on for a while until Randall sends a 381 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,239 Speaker 3: messenger saying I'm coming. I'm going to put together an 382 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 3: army basically and come and take you back if you 383 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 3: don't come back to his daughter. And so at that 384 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 3: point she decides she has to go back. She doesn't 385 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 3: want to start this war between the families. It's not 386 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 3: a clean division. Johncey's going to go back across the 387 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 3: border and try to continue to court her. 388 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: She ends up pregnant. The brothers are angry. 389 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 3: She has to move out of the house with an aunt, 390 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 3: aunt Betty, whose house today is really the Central McCoy Homestead, 391 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 3: monument to the feud, it's still owned by McCoy's. 392 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 2: The McCoy's gather there on their family reunions. 393 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 3: Her grave is there, the grave of their child, her 394 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 3: child with Johncey is there, and that occurs. Her brothers 395 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 3: find out that Johncey's coming across the river and courting 396 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 3: her at Aunt Betty's. They come up and they catch him, 397 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 3: and Johncey's kind of a notorious bootlegger. He sells devil 398 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 3: Ants's whiskey on both sides of the river, and he 399 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 3: carries concealed weapons, and there are all kinds of warrants 400 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 3: out for his arrest, so they do a citizen's arrest 401 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 3: and they're going to take him to Pikeville to have 402 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 3: him tried. Rosanna hears about this, and one of the 403 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 3: most famous moments of the feud is when she leaves 404 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 3: in the middle of the night and goes to the 405 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 3: other side of the river and alerts devil Ants because 406 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 3: she's afraid that her brothers are actually going to kill 407 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 3: Johncey and he's never going to make it to pike Phil. 408 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 3: Devil Ants gets some men, they come across the river. 409 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 3: They catch the brothers with Johncey, and they take Johncey back, 410 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 3: and here Rosanna has betrayed her family and created more 411 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 3: inmity among them. And again there's no resolution. She doesn't 412 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 3: go back and mary into the Hatfield family. In fact, 413 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 3: Johncey is going to marry a cousin of hers. 414 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: Well, how was that allowed to happen? 415 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 3: Though? Well, here again you have very complex, widespread families, 416 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 3: sometimes very loyal to one another, sometimes looking after themselves. 417 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 3: You've got younger generations who don't always listen to their parents, 418 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 3: and you have an older generation that, while there's anger, 419 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 3: they're more reasonable in some ways. 420 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: The younger generation is more likely to. 421 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 3: Pick up a gun and shoot at each other, a 422 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 3: little more violent and to make matters more complicated, Nancy 423 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 3: was Hermon McCoy's daughter, the Harmon McCoy murdered by the Hatfields. 424 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 2: So she didn't have a father to say, don't do that. 425 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: And in fact, one of her brothers said, Johncey wasn't 426 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 3: responsible for that. 427 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:20,479 Speaker 2: Go ahead, you can marry in. 428 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 3: Because also the Hatfields were pretty powerful in that area. 429 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 2: They had a decent. 430 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 3: Amount of wealth in that area, and Harmon McCoy's family 431 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 3: was destitute from having their father die, and so this 432 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 3: was a way to escape that poverty. 433 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 1: Were devil Ants, Hatfield and Randall McCoy, ever friends are 434 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: close or anything, just men who respected each other. 435 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: They were, they fought together in the war. 436 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 3: They together went and raided one of the Union Home 437 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 3: Guard leaders farms and actually killed that man. But they 438 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 3: did that together, and it's kind of shocking to see that. 439 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 3: And it turns out Randall McCoy's on Big Gym actually 440 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 3: worked in devil Ants's moonshining operation. The other interesting thing 441 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 3: is that devil Ants is present at almost none of 442 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 3: the big flashpoint moments of the feud. So while he's 443 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 3: the patriarch sort of sitting back and maybe the puppet master, 444 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 3: he's generally not there when a big event unfolds. So 445 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 3: it's very mysterious and in complex. 446 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: Again, this seems like a good time to talk about 447 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: the honor code of the eighteen hundreds, I'm sure, particularly 448 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: in Virginia. What was that even about and how is 449 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: it different than how we resolve conflicts today. 450 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 3: Do you think back then no law enforcement would come 451 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 3: into these areas. 452 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 2: People were heavily armed. They had to be. They used 453 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: their arms for hunting and live that way, but also 454 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,719 Speaker 2: to defend themselves if something happened to your family. 455 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 3: You probably weren't going to be able to go to 456 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 3: the city, get a sheriff to come to your area 457 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 3: and accomplish anything. Particularly, nobody's going to come into the 458 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: hat Fields area because there are lots of hat Fields there, 459 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 3: all going to stick up for one another. Same with 460 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 3: the McCoys, and so they fended for themselves. 461 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 2: First. They would go to the law if it was 462 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 2: a dispute. 463 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 3: You know, there were deeds, they understood all this kind 464 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 3: of thing, and they would use the court of law 465 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 3: if they could. 466 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: But if it were a closer family matter. 467 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,719 Speaker 3: And you'll see this when we go a little bit 468 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 3: deeper into some of the view to actions the next 469 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 3: one in particular, that they sometimes had to take the. 470 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 2: Law into their own hands. 471 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 3: Back then, if somebody was convicted for murder and put 472 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 3: in prison, I think a typical life sentence was about 473 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 3: seven years. That's about how long you could expect that 474 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 3: person to be in prison. Well, if that person killed 475 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 3: your brother or your son, do you want to let 476 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 3: them go to trial in another state and maybe get 477 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 3: put into prison there for seven years? Does that write 478 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 3: the situation for you? On the other hand, they were 479 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 3: practical people as well. There were cases where people would 480 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 3: move in together who weren't yet married because the preachers 481 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 3: were on circuits there, and they might have to wait 482 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 3: until the following spring or summer to get a preacher 483 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 3: there to marry them. So they weren't so rigid that 484 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 3: they couldn't bend to some of the practicalities of that life. 485 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 2: But there was family honor. 486 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 3: If somebody ran off with one of your sisters or daughters, 487 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,239 Speaker 3: that kind of thing and didn't honor that situation with 488 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 3: marriage and a commitment. People might fight with guns and 489 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 3: shoot at each other, and in a way it was 490 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 3: like a duel. As long as you fought the duel, 491 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 3: your honor was satisfied because you showed courage, you showed 492 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 3: that you were going to stand up for what you 493 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 3: thought was right and for your family. The result didn't 494 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 3: matter so much. If you didn't hit each other. You 495 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 3: could then shake hands and go, hey, that's God's will. 496 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: So let me see if I can summarize where we 497 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: are up till now. So geography and the Civil War 498 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: divide these intermingling families right and after the Civil War, 499 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: the Hatfields tracked down Harmon McCoy and kill him, which 500 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: we think might have started at least some really bad 501 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 1: feelings between the two families that were already simmering. Then 502 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: there's the hog incident with the Hatfield and McCoy's, and 503 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: then Rock Sanna and John c are no longer together, 504 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: but it has caused a lot of feelings of disrespect, 505 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: particularly from the McCoy's towards the hat Fields. Is that 506 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: kind of where we are right now? 507 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: Yes, good summery. What year are we. 508 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 1: In and what is the next big event? 509 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: Okay? 510 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 3: So that brings us up to eighteen seventy eight, and 511 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 3: in eighteen eighty again, at an election day, everybody comes 512 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 3: together in Kentucky, not even a contentious election. They pretty 513 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 3: much know who's gonna get elected sheriff. 514 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 2: And they come together. 515 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 3: But a dispute breaks out, and it's quite possible that 516 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 3: Randall's sons, namely Tolbert, his oldest son. We're still angry 517 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 3: over the Resianna situation and sort. 518 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 2: Of out for blood. 519 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 3: Tolbert ends up in a dispute with a bad Lias 520 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 3: hat Field, you know, over the sale of a banjo 521 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 3: and an unpaid debt. 522 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: There's a bad Lias and there's a good lias. 523 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 3: There's Good Lias, who's devil Ance's brother, and there's Bad 524 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 3: Loss on the Kentucky side. Bad Lion is kind of 525 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 3: thumped by Tolbert. He's not a strong guy. There's Ellison 526 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 3: Hatfield who has come over from the West Virginia side. 527 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: Ellison's just there to socialize. 528 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 3: He was the Confederate hero from the Hatfield family, so 529 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 3: he was a revered warrior, but he was a deacon 530 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 3: in the church, very respected man. He gets roused when 531 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 3: he hears about the fight, and he goes over and 532 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 3: basically says, Tolbert stop picking on him. 533 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 2: Pick on somebody your own size. 534 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 3: Well, he's a lot bigger than Tolbert, and Tolbert's all 535 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 3: fired up and angry, and he says, don't you butt in, 536 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 3: and the two of them start getting into it. Ellison's, 537 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 3: even though he's been drinking a lot, is a more 538 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 3: powerful guy. Tolbert's got a knife and pulls his knife. 539 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 3: He stabs Ellison. They get into a real tussle. The 540 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 3: Knight's going back and forth, and then Tolbert's two brothers, 541 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 3: Farmer and Bud, get involved. 542 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: So more McCoy's more. 543 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 3: McCoy's, Yeah, three McCoy's versus one Hatfield and everybody else 544 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 3: is circled up. Preacher ants Hatfield is there that he 545 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 3: tried to diffuse the fight. He's tried his best to say, 546 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 3: you guys, you know, no, we don't want this, separate, 547 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 3: don't do this, but it didn't work. In the nice 548 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 3: flying it's dangerous and pretty soon they're rolling around on 549 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 3: the ground. Ellison ends up getting stabbed twenty seven times 550 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 3: by the brothers and Tolbert. 551 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: So Ellison Hatfield has been killed by the McCoys. 552 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 3: At one point, even though he's hurting really badly, he 553 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 3: picks up a stone and he's getting ready to hit 554 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 3: Tolbert with it, and Farmer McCoy shoots him, shoots him 555 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 3: in the back. Ellison somehow manages to stay alive. He 556 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 3: can't fight anymore. 557 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: Well, he's been stabbed twenty seven times and shot in 558 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: the back. 559 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yeah, and drunk a lot of moonshine. Yeah, okay, 560 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 2: So now good. 561 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 3: Lias Hatfield, who's also there, gets Ellison, gets some of 562 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 3: his other Hatfield guys and they take Ellison back over 563 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 3: to West Virginia. They take him to a family home. 564 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 3: They get a doctor and they start treating. 565 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: Him and they hope for the best. They hope he's 566 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:01,959 Speaker 2: going to survive. 567 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 3: In the meantime, the McCoy brothers are arrested, of course 568 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 3: by Hatfield constables on the Kentucky side. 569 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 2: So you have Hatfields who have arrested these McCoys. 570 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 3: Still devil Ance, who wasn't there, Who's told what's happened Ellison, 571 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 3: you know, one of his favorite brothers in this hero 572 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 3: is basically on his deathbed. Devil Ance gets together a 573 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 3: posse of men and he says, no, those guys are 574 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 3: not going to go to Pikefield to be tried. And 575 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 3: he goes across the river that night finds the constables 576 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 3: who have the brothers, and they take control of them 577 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 3: and they take them back to West Virginia, and devil 578 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 3: Ance says, if my brother survives, these guys can go 579 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 3: to Kentucky for their trial, but if he dies, they're 580 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 3: going to be tried in West Virginia. 581 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 2: You got your family, honor. 582 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 3: Just a typical moment in a feud, a blood feud. 583 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 3: He's not going to let somebody else decide this matter 584 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 3: if his brother dies. So they put the three brothers 585 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 3: in a sort of a dilapidated school house, and all 586 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 3: these Hatfields are there standing guard over them. 587 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: So the dying man is devil Ansel Hatfield's brother, and 588 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: some of the men who attacked him are Randall McCoy's sons. 589 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 3: Randall McCoy has gone to Pikeville to try to get 590 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 3: real law enforcement from Pikeville involved, and to see his 591 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 3: cousin Perry Klein, who's an attorney there, who has some 592 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 3: power in Pikeville, and some sway. 593 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 2: In the meantime, Ellison is fading. 594 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 3: Tolbert's wife and child, and Tolbert's mother and the mother 595 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 3: of the other boys. 596 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: They come over and plead for the lives. 597 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 3: Of these boys and begging, you know, on their knees 598 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 3: for devil antce to do everything by the book. And 599 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 3: devil Ance again and his brother wall Hatfield say, look, 600 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 3: if Ellison lives, we'll let the boys go to Pikeville. 601 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 3: If Ellison doesn't live, we'll try them here. And that's 602 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 3: the way it's going to be. It doesn't really matter 603 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 3: what you say. In the end, Ellison dies. Within a 604 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 3: couple of days, the Hatfield hold their summary trial, and 605 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 3: it's pretty clear what the outcome of that trial is 606 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 3: going to be. 607 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 2: Guilty. You know, you have an army of hat Fields here. 608 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: They're just kind of stuck. 609 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 3: The boy's mother even begs some of the other brothers 610 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 3: please don't interfere. I still hope that devil Ance will 611 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 3: do the right thing. Don't because she didn't want to 612 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 3: lose all our boys. She knows what will happen. What 613 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 3: the Hatfields do is they take the boys back into Kentucky. 614 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: They tie them to paul Paw trees. 615 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: What is this? 616 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: Paul Paw tree is a local fruit bearing tree. 617 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 3: They tie them to the tree and they execute them 618 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 3: by firing squad. 619 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 2: They then go back into West Virginia. 620 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: And now by crossing the state line, the Hatfields actually 621 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: did something kind of clever. 622 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 3: These murders or this carrying out of justice has happened 623 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 3: in Kentucky, so they didn't commit a crime in West Virginia. 624 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 2: But there's no kind of extradition treaties. There's no agreements 625 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 2: between states. 626 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 3: If Kentucky's not going to go to the governor of 627 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 3: West Virginia and say, hey, we want these Hatfields they 628 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 3: committed them murder of the year and get them back 629 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 3: because the governor needs votes, it does him no good 630 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 3: to send Hatfields over to Kentucky for a trial. 631 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: So they stay out of it. The government stays out 632 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: of it. 633 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 2: I assume, yeah, they're going to stay out of it. 634 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 3: No Kentucky law enforcement can go into West Virginia and 635 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 3: extract them. 636 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 2: One they would come out alive. Two it would be illegal. 637 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 3: The Hatfields have taken care of this situation in a 638 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 3: way that there's going to be no easy. 639 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: Resolution, and so for a number of years there isn't. 640 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 3: The Hatfields don't go into Kentucky and the McCoys don't 641 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 3: go into West Virginia because they know that either they'll 642 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 3: be arrested or killed. They have created an incendiary and 643 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 3: upsetting situation, one that's not going to be brushed under 644 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 3: the rug this time. 645 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: So this happened in eighteen eighty is that right? 646 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 2: Yes? Yes? 647 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: So how long do we go before we see another 648 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: Hatfield McCoy conflict? 649 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, about five years. But in the meantime Randall is 650 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 3: not going to let go of this. He's going to 651 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 3: his relative, Perry Klein in Pikeville, who is going to 652 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 3: help get a governor in Kentucky elected and have some 653 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 3: chits and get a price put on the head of 654 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 3: these Hatfields Wow, hoping to raise the ante here and 655 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 3: to get some bounty hunters going that's smart. 656 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 657 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 3: And so the Hatfields get wind of this and they 658 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 3: start getting nervous. They decide that to resolve this, they 659 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 3: need to get rid of Randall McCoy. 660 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: Who is the patriarch and the moral center of this 661 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: entire family. 662 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 3: That was a very unlikely outcome, but that was the 663 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 3: reasoning they came up with, was that we need to 664 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 3: kill Randall because he's the one who's trying to get 665 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 3: Perry Klein to get these bounty hunters to come get us. 666 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 2: On New Year's Eve in. 667 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 3: Eighteen eighty seven, a hat Field party goes over. 668 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 2: And raids Randall McCoy's house. 669 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 3: Well, they go over that night, but it turns out 670 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 3: there's an issue. There's a barking dog, and they feel 671 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 3: like it's not the right moment. They go back, and 672 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 3: they come back the next day and they raid the 673 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 3: house at night. There is a really nasty battle. The 674 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 3: McCoys are not unprepared that fully armed. They're shooting out 675 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 3: of the doors and windows and out of the attic 676 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 3: of their house, and the hat Fields are shooting back 677 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 3: and trying to light the house on fire. You know, 678 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 3: smoke gets into the house. The McCoys are kind of 679 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 3: flushed out. Two of the McCoy's are killed, one of 680 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 3: them being one of Randall's daughter's, Alafair, and a son 681 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 3: named Calvin Randall. McCoy is eventually going to get away. 682 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 3: He's able to skip get off into the woods being 683 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,479 Speaker 3: shot at. His wife does not get away. She has 684 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 3: beaten severely, almost to death. And in addition to that 685 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 3: knife fight and shooting, the most savage event of the feud, 686 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 3: Devil Lance again is not there. 687 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 2: He was sick. It was led by bad Jim Vance, 688 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 2: or some people. 689 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 3: Call him Crazy Jim Vance, a Confederate raider during the 690 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 3: war and one of the more violent members of the feud, 691 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 3: as well as Cap hat Field, Devil Ance's son, who 692 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 3: had a real mean streak in him too. 693 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: Is this home invasion of the McCoy homestead the real 694 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: turning point of this feud? 695 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 3: This was a moment that was, I guess, beyond the 696 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,399 Speaker 3: pale where the whole thing is going to escalate, beyond 697 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,439 Speaker 3: the region. This is when you're gonna get New York 698 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 3: City taking notice of it and sending down reporters. You 699 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 3: also have Pierry Kline, who is all the more incensed 700 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 3: over this moment, and Randall and Sally going to Pikeville 701 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 3: to get away from that border where they know they're 702 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 3: in peril. Perry Kline deputizes a guy named Frank Phillips. 703 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 2: Frank Phillips is a man of action. 704 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 3: He's not gonna wait very long before he takes law 705 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 3: into his own hands. He will cross over the West 706 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 3: Virginia Kentucky border. You already have a Kentucky governor asking 707 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,760 Speaker 3: the West Virginia governor please give us these guys. 708 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 2: We need to resolve this. 709 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 3: And you have the milicias of either state, of their 710 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 3: guards mobilizing, moving into the area to secure the border. 711 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 3: I mean, it's potentially an opening of a new sort 712 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 3: of civil war front. 713 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: It's that bad. 714 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 3: But again, they won't act against their own people. They 715 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 3: know it's sort of political suicide. There's not an upside 716 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 3: to it, and so bad. Frank Phillips is tired of waiting. 717 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 3: He is going to raid across the border. He arrests 718 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 3: a bunch of hat Fields, takes them back to Pikeville, 719 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 3: puts them in jail, ends up in a battle called 720 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 3: the Battle of Grapevine Creek. The Hatfields have gathered to 721 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,439 Speaker 3: protect their area and they have a deputy sheriff with them, 722 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,919 Speaker 3: and of all the people that Frank's going to kill, 723 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 3: he kills the deputy sheriff who's not part of the family. 724 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 3: But they're somewhat legitimizing the Hatfield posse. But he kills 725 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 3: that guy in a very cold blooded way. He wounds them, 726 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 3: tracks him down and shoots him. Even when this guy's 727 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 3: begging for mercy. 728 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,399 Speaker 1: Wow, what's the last major thing. 729 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, Randall McCoy is still surviving, believe it or not. 730 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 3: The Hatfields are tried in Pikeville and they are convicted 731 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 3: of murder. All of them are given life life sentences 732 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 3: except for one. That is Cotton Top Mounts. He was 733 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 3: a guy who had gone along on the raid and 734 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 3: took the blame for killing Alafair. 735 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: Alafair was Randall McCoy's daughter who was killed during the 736 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: home invasion by the Hatfields. 737 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 3: A lot of people think that it was actually Cap 738 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 3: Hatfield who killed Alafair, but paid Cotton Top and gave 739 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 3: him a new saddle to take the blame, and Cotton 740 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 3: Top wasn't aware enough to know what that might result in. 741 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,839 Speaker 3: He was convicted of murder, given the death penalty, and 742 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 3: there was going to be a big public execution. Now, 743 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 3: public executions in Pike County had been outlawed for four decades. 744 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 3: There were no more public hangings those kinds of spectacles. 745 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 3: But they wanted to send a big message here that 746 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 3: this feud was over, namely for economic reasons, because they 747 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 3: wanted the railroads to come in to be able to 748 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,320 Speaker 3: sell their coal and their timber more easily. It was 749 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 3: on the edge of happening, but as long as it 750 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 3: was a lawless place, the railroads didn't want to come in. 751 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 3: So they wanted to send a big message. So what 752 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 3: they did was they erected a gallows and put up 753 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,879 Speaker 3: a little fence with hillsides all around that you could 754 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,320 Speaker 3: see right over the fence, so that this big public 755 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 3: spectacle would take place. 756 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:10,879 Speaker 2: There was a lot of. 757 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 3: Fear that the hat Fields were going to come in 758 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 3: and raid the event and save Cotton Top Mounts, and 759 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,280 Speaker 3: thousands of people came to witness this execution in eighteen ninety. 760 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 2: Devil Ants did not mount arraid. 761 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 3: Frank Phillips was there along with others and really that 762 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 3: execution of Cotton Top Mounts put an end to the feud. 763 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 3: Randall was a broken man at that point. Randall and 764 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 3: his wife Sally, who had been beaten nearly to death. 765 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 3: They lived in Pikeville. Randall would take over a ferry 766 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 3: and kind of run at the rest of his life 767 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 3: and die a tragic death, catch on fire in the fireplace. 768 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 2: What and burn to death? 769 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, terrible, Yeah, And devil ance would go on to 770 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 3: be born again. 771 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 2: To renounce violence, and he would live to an old age, 772 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 2: and he was wealthy. In the cemetery, there is a 773 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 2: Italian marble statue on top of his tomb there. You know, 774 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 2: that really signifies the wealth of the family. 775 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: So obviously there's no winner or loser in this feud. 776 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: But is there one family that comes out a little 777 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: bit ahead of the other? 778 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 3: I would say that the McCoy family was largely victimized 779 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 3: in the feud. 780 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 2: The Hatfields wouldn't agree with that. 781 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,760 Speaker 3: The line share of the deaths were on the McCoy side, so. 782 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,280 Speaker 2: They lost in that manner. 783 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 3: The Hatfields would go on to be very successful, a 784 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,919 Speaker 3: lot of doctors in the next generation, a governor out 785 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 3: of the next generation, a really really remarkable result for 786 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 3: people this isolated in southern West Virginia. Both families, though, 787 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 3: have rebounded amazingly. They were big, huge, robust families. So 788 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 3: as you've seen more recently, certainly after the Gulf War, 789 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,479 Speaker 3: where you you know, you have Hatfields and McCoy's, both 790 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 3: members of the descendants of the feud fighting in the 791 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 3: Gulf War, and the two families said, hey, you. 792 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 2: Know, after nine to eleven, they got to get other. 793 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,760 Speaker 3: They really wanted to send the message that it didn't 794 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 3: matter if somebody attacks America on American soil. The Hatfields 795 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 3: and McCoy's were going to come together, and they signed 796 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 3: a peace treaty then because they knew they had to 797 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 3: put together that united front for their sons who were 798 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 3: fighting together in the Middle East. 799 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 2: And I think that's truly remarkable. Right or wrong, we. 800 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 3: Stand up for ourselves, we defend our families, we show 801 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 3: immense loyalty, and I think that's what these families did. 802 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: So this story is a part of American history, but 803 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 1: it's also a really personal story about two families. I 804 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: just wonder you spoke with both of them. Did you 805 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: have to kind of tread lightly here? 806 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 3: There are points of honor here that they're very concerned about, 807 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 3: and they want the history told the way they've heard 808 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 3: it from their families, and they get upset if you 809 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 3: challenge that sometimes, and so it's it is very still 810 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 3: a very raw and personal matter. 811 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, you know, I 812 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:01,959 Speaker 1: look in this case, I see all of the ways 813 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: this girl has failed. 814 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 4: She was failed by the media who didn't cover the case. 815 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 4: She was failed by the systems in place that had 816 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 4: her with very little opportunity and a way out that 817 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 4: she was failed by all of the shaming that happens 818 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,800 Speaker 4: in towns like this at times like this, The ideas 819 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 4: that women could only be these one things and anything 820 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 4: outside of the box was somehow deviant, and I really 821 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 4: feel that there were so many things that sort of 822 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 4: came together, you know, that really conspired against her and 823 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 4: girls like her. 824 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 825 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has 826 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more media production. Alexis and 827 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epan is our sound designer. 828 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for US. Curtis Heath does 829 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink 830 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen 831 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,799 Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. 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