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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. For most of us,

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Speaker 1: the promise of a trip to the beach in Florida

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Speaker 1: brings up thoughts of the warm air, the sun beating

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Speaker 1: down on us as we lay in the sand, listening

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Speaker 1: to the surf, hearing the goals overhead, and just relaxing.

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Speaker 1: For eleven year old Gannon Stouch, nothing to be further

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Speaker 1: from the truth. Today, we're gonna talk about one of

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Speaker 1: the most horrific crimes in recent memory. We're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about Againett Stouch. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is

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Speaker 1: body Bags back with me again Today is my good

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Speaker 1: friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of crom Stories. When Nan grace, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: what can you tell us about Gannon? Gannon Stouch lived

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Speaker 1: with his father and his stepmother, Al and Ltitia Stouch.

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Speaker 1: The dad served in the military in the National Guard

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Speaker 1: and was often away for training. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: his father, Al was in Oklahoma Quinn Gannon died. Letitia Stouch,

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Speaker 1: the stepmother, reported the eleven year old missing. She said

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Speaker 1: that he had stayed home from school originally because he

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Speaker 1: had a stomach ache, and then she had traveled out

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Speaker 1: with him to a park later on that day, within

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours of the first nine one one call

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Speaker 1: reporting Gannon missing. The stories definitely did not add up.

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Speaker 1: Letitia had initially told detectives that when Gannon had gone

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Speaker 1: to the friend's house and didn't return, she could not

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Speaker 1: tell them the friend's name, address, her phone number. Then

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Speaker 1: she changed her story and said that a neighborhood construction

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Speaker 1: worker had broken into the house and raped her and

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Speaker 1: took Gannon. Then she said that she had watched Gannon

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Speaker 1: ride his bike and he fell off, hit his head

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Speaker 1: and then two men drove up and grabbed him and

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Speaker 1: took off. So we have conflicting stories about what happened

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Speaker 1: to Gannon. Here. It was two months before Gannon's douch's

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Speaker 1: body was found, and it was found in Florida, more

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Speaker 1: than four miles away. Gannon had been stuffed into a

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Speaker 1: suitcase and discarded. Jackie one of the most valuable bits

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Speaker 1: of currency. UH odd term to use, but in scientific

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Speaker 1: parlance for US and forensics is time. You know these

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Speaker 1: things that where we're trying to put these elements together

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Speaker 1: to understand what exactly happened. And when you have a

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Speaker 1: case such as Gannon's that extends out over such a

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Speaker 1: broad reaching spectrum of time, then that's that creates a

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Speaker 1: multiple multitude of problems for us. You begin thinking about, well,

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Speaker 1: he was last seen on January January, January, I believe,

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Speaker 1: and then he wasn't found for almost another two months.

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Speaker 1: And so when you're trying to put things together, you

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Speaker 1: have to think about things like, uh, decompositional changes, what

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Speaker 1: what's going to impact those findings, what's going to impact, uh,

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Speaker 1: the way we view the way the body is initially

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Speaker 1: found as opposed to where we think that, say, a

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Speaker 1: fatal event occurred. And keep in mind we're talking about

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Speaker 1: a distance of four hundred miles, Jackie. That's a long

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Speaker 1: ways from Colorado to Florida. It is a long way,

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Speaker 1: and you know, Joe, one of the things that was

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Speaker 1: important to note here in this case, the position in

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Speaker 1: Florida is not where Gannon was originally dumped. We have

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Speaker 1: a location back in Colorado where police say Gannon's body

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Speaker 1: was left for at least a month and then retrieved

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Speaker 1: and transported to Florida. So I'm just going to open

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Speaker 1: the field up to you and let you go, because

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Speaker 1: I have to imagine that the you know, the different

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Speaker 1: locations the time. There are so many things that has

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Speaker 1: to be considered here. Yeah, there are, and there are

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Speaker 1: multiple elements involving here. They are going to impact changes

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Speaker 1: in the body specifically. And can you know, for an

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Speaker 1: unseasoned investigator, UM can throw you off very very quickly

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Speaker 1: if you're not really attuned to the environment in which

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Speaker 1: the body is found in. And let me just give

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Speaker 1: you a brief example, and this will kind of paint

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Speaker 1: paint the picture. If you think about let's just think

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Speaker 1: about soil. Okay, think about what the soil is probably

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Speaker 1: like out in Colorado. You might have a mix of

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Speaker 1: a lot of decomposed uh say, for instance, plant life

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Speaker 1: from that particular area. Think about evergreen trees, uh, combined

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Speaker 1: with maybe a clay base in the in the soil.

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Speaker 1: And then he is from Colorado. He apparently died there.

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Speaker 1: And then you think about where he was finally deposited.

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Speaker 1: That's in Florida, Jackie. What's the soil like in Florida. Well,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you this. The one of the major

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Speaker 1: components in Florida UM is going to be sand. So

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Speaker 1: you're not necessarily gonna find those two elements in the

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Speaker 1: same place, and so that's a distinctive thing that we

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Speaker 1: look for in forensic science. Soil science is actually a

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Speaker 1: big part of what we referred to as trace evidence.

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Speaker 1: It's a particular section you can go to at the

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Speaker 1: crime lab and they study these sorts of things that

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Speaker 1: in and of itself is major when you're trying to

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Speaker 1: put together what actually happened. But just like we can

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Speaker 1: look at soil, there are multiple elements here in Gannon's case.

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Speaker 1: Chief among this is going to be uh for instance,

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Speaker 1: that he was in apparently apparently multiple locations after death.

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Speaker 1: He died, we believe, at least according to what the

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Speaker 1: police are saying, in Colorado, in El Paso County, antially

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Speaker 1: in that home. How do I know that, Well, his

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Speaker 1: stepmother allegedly had his step sister go out and purchase

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Speaker 1: items like bleach, garbage bags, these sorts of things that

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Speaker 1: you would use to facilitate cleaning in an environment. We

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Speaker 1: know that his body was there, he certainly lived there

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Speaker 1: for a while. And then you know how you mentioned

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Speaker 1: that he was held in one location for about a month.

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Speaker 1: That place was Douglas County, Colorado. That's where the police

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Speaker 1: think that the initial dump site was. But you know what,

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Speaker 1: there's a scene in between that. You know what it is.

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Speaker 1: It's the vehicle that was used to initially transport his body.

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Speaker 1: So moving from his home, his body being moved from

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Speaker 1: his home in El Paso County to Douglas County, that's

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Speaker 1: another scene. Even though it's on wheels, you have elements

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Speaker 1: of his body that might be contained in that vehicle

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Speaker 1: from that first trip. Now, once he gets deposited in

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Speaker 1: Douglas County, follow me here in Douglas County, Colorado. For

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Speaker 1: some reason, you know the old adage they talk about

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Speaker 1: how the criminal always returns to the scene of the crime.

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Speaker 1: Maybe an individual is getting uncomfortable at this moment time.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they're thinking, we need to put more distance physical

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Speaker 1: distance between ourselves and a body. So what happens His

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Speaker 1: body is then gathered back up. And keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: when you gather his body back up at that scene

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Speaker 1: in Colorado, that initial dump site, you're picking up all

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Speaker 1: of the debris that was underlying that body, anything that

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Speaker 1: attached itself to his body, or clothing that he may

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Speaker 1: have been wearing. You know what, Jackie, that's going with him.

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Speaker 1: Then you place it back in the car. And now

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Speaker 1: now you've got to make this fourteen hundred mile journey

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Speaker 1: from rural Colorado all the way down to the panhandle

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Speaker 1: of Florida. Now, how are you going to do that? Well, apparently,

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Speaker 1: from what the police are telling us, he wasn't placed

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Speaker 1: in in plastic or I think that he was probably

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Speaker 1: wrapped in something. But it's not like they just simply

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Speaker 1: put him into a garbage act. It's not what they did.

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Speaker 1: They actually took a suitcase, folded this little boy's body

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Speaker 1: up and stuffed it in there. And then they transporting

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Speaker 1: all these miles and so now you've got the influence

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Speaker 1: of the suitcase that comes into play with his body.

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Speaker 1: Anything is contained within that suitcase, it's going to transfer

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Speaker 1: to his body. Anything that was on his body is

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Speaker 1: going to transfer to that suitcase. And now they finally

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Speaker 1: make it to Florida and they get to this bridge,

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Speaker 1: and my thought is, whoever did this pulled over, maybe

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Speaker 1: on the side of that bridge and simply threw him

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Speaker 1: off into this waterway. And it's really tragic, uh, but

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Speaker 1: it's it's a good thing in the end, because his

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Speaker 1: body didn't float out to sea. It was essentially lodged

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Speaker 1: there on the bank where the where the local workers

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Speaker 1: actually wound up funding. So we know that Letitia rented

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Speaker 1: a van in February and drove from Colorado to Pensacola, Florida,

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Speaker 1: and she stayed at a hotel that was about three

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Speaker 1: and a half miles from where Gainnon's body was later found.

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Speaker 1: You talked about the forensics possibly blood from the first

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Speaker 1: time that Gainnon's body was transported. So now we've got

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Speaker 1: a different vehicle that could possibly have evidence in it

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Speaker 1: if we followed this line of evidence where she rented

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Speaker 1: a vehicle most likely since she's in Florida to dispose

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Speaker 1: of the body. So we're gonna find what soil from

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Speaker 1: Colorado that you're not necessarily going to find in Florida,

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Speaker 1: bug larva from Colorado that you're not going to find

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Speaker 1: in Florida. I mean, what are those kinds of differences, Joe,

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Speaker 1: Listen to you, Jack, you're talking about bug laarva. There

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Speaker 1: you go. You're absolutely right. You're on the right track here,

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Speaker 1: because you know, we talked about things like I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: break this down. We talk about things like flora and fauna.

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Speaker 1: We learned this in basic biology, and see it's very

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Speaker 1: simple This isn't rocket science. This applies to forensics. It's

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Speaker 1: some of the stuff that we look from for from

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Speaker 1: a biological standpoint, Flora meaning any kind of plant life,

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Speaker 1: and and then fauna meaning any kind of of insect

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Speaker 1: life or anything just thinking anything with a heartbeat, okay,

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Speaker 1: And that can extend all the way through the animal kingdom.

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Speaker 1: So the bug life, for instance, the insect life for instance,

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Speaker 1: in Colorado is going to vary greatly from that that

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Speaker 1: is found down in Florida, as we well know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: how many of us have been to the heat of

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Speaker 1: Florida and you're slapping mosquitoes and gnats and everything else

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Speaker 1: down there, and we definitely know that insects are in

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Speaker 1: that area, but there in Colorado as well. So you're

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Speaker 1: talking about specific species that in dwell Colorado. Well, if

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Speaker 1: they have potentially laid their eggs on our adjacent to

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Speaker 1: Gann's body, which I would assume that they would have,

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Speaker 1: if we go with this idea that he was down

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Speaker 1: for a month there, those are gonna be transported with him,

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Speaker 1: unless you know the perpetrator went to a great deal

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Speaker 1: of trouble to clean all of this way. I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine that that was done, there would still be some

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Speaker 1: remnant of that left behind. And then when you get

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Speaker 1: down to floor Porida, you're going to have this um

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Speaker 1: deposition of eggs that come from the local uh insect

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Speaker 1: life down there at that point in time. So you're really,

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Speaker 1: you know, the nature is actually painting painting a picture

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Speaker 1: for us here. It's actually creating kind of a breadcrumb trail,

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Speaker 1: if you will, relative to this journey that he's taken.

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Speaker 1: So that's very very specific, and I think that going

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Speaker 1: back to what you had mentioned, the rental of the van,

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Speaker 1: you know, this expands this out even further because if

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Speaker 1: if the vehicle used the first time to deposit his body,

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Speaker 1: will say the family vehicle, that's going to have unique

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Speaker 1: evidence from the home to that deposition spot there where

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Speaker 1: his body was laid out there in Douglas County. Then

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Speaker 1: if you use the van to transport the body from

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Speaker 1: Douglas County to Florida, which we can assume that's that's

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Speaker 1: what happened. Since a van was rented, then that's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a separate collection of evidence. You're not gonna have

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Speaker 1: this over layer commingling of evidence. So that actually works

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Speaker 1: in the favor of the police as they're investigating this case.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just the police, Jackie, because what do

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Speaker 1: we have going on here? Well, anytime you're involved in

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Speaker 1: perpetrating a felony like this, UM, you now call upon

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Speaker 1: the resources, you invoke the resources of the FBI. How

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Speaker 1: many states are there between Colorado and Florida. You're talking

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Speaker 1: about the transportation of a body, a deceased child, from

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Speaker 1: one state all the way to the other side of

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Speaker 1: the United States. So now you're going to call the

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Speaker 1: full force of the FBI and all of their resources.

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Speaker 1: And I can tell you at their lab they have

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Speaker 1: one of the most complete, instead of the art crime

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Speaker 1: labs in the world. So let me jump in here,

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Speaker 1: and I want to make one more point back to

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Speaker 1: the bug Larva. UM. You've also got the temperature differences

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Speaker 1: between Colorado because it's February, snows in Colorado in February,

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Speaker 1: and Florida where it's still fairly temperate weather. And there's

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Speaker 1: all manner of things that work here, Jackie. When you

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Speaker 1: begin to think about that, UM, when a body is

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Speaker 1: kept in an environment that is very cold, UM, you

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Speaker 1: can actually retard the process of decomposition. That means to

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Speaker 1: slow it down greatly, kind of blunted, if you will,

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Speaker 1: to the point where the body is not going to

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Speaker 1: remain perfectly preserved, but as opposed to being in a

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Speaker 1: tropical subtropical environment like Florida in that region, remember we're

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Speaker 1: up near Pensacola on the on the north end of Florida.

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Speaker 1: Decomposition because of heat is going to accelerate in that area.

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Speaker 1: So imagine, if you will, as Gannon's body is being

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Speaker 1: transported from Colorado to Florida, the temperature is creeping upward

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Speaker 1: as you're leaving Colorado, presuming she took a southward route,

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Speaker 1: all the while his body, this process of decomposition is

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Speaker 1: accelerating all the way. And if we factor in the

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Speaker 1: fact that he is contained within the small space of

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Speaker 1: this of this suitcase, that's going to accelerate it as well,

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Speaker 1: because all of the moisture that is being given off

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Speaker 1: by the body is self contained in there, and it's

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Speaker 1: going to again further enhance the speed at which the

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Speaker 1: body is decomposing. I cannot even begin to imagine Jackie,

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Speaker 1: the foul odor that would have been exuding from that

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Speaker 1: suitcase as she's transporting it down the road, making her

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Speaker 1: way very slowly. Remember she stopped and spent the night

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Speaker 1: along the way. When she would have gotten back into

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Speaker 1: that van the next morning, perhaps prior to dumping his body.

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Speaker 1: The smell could have knocked you over. I think any

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Speaker 1: of us, you know, faced with the proposition of of

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Speaker 1: having to transport a body over this great country that

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Speaker 1: we have, over this expansive country, would give any of

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Speaker 1: us kind of pause for a moment. But can you

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Speaker 1: actually imagine Jackie transporting the body of a child which

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Speaker 1: you were given specific charge over, this child that you

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Speaker 1: had been told to take care of, to to feed,

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Speaker 1: that you've been entrusted with, and all the while he's

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Speaker 1: decomposing in the back of the vehicle. No, I can't, Joe,

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Speaker 1: And especially once it has discovered what happened at this

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Speaker 1: eleven year old. We now know that Gannon Stouch was

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Speaker 1: shot in the jaw with a nine millimeter and stabbed

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Speaker 1: at least eighteen times before he died. So it is

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Speaker 1: no wonder that the stepmother, Latitia Stouch, sent her daughter

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Speaker 1: Gannon step sister to go buy cleaning supplies. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is quite literally a bloody mess. When you're talking

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Speaker 1: about the volume of when you're talking about the level

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Speaker 1: of trauma that Gannon endured. Let's let me break this

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Speaker 1: standing first off. Let me and and this makes it

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Speaker 1: even more horrific, Jackie. Yes, he was shot in the

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Speaker 1: jaw and that's uh. Some people are shaking their heads

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Speaker 1: over that right now. I know, but that that might

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Speaker 1: have been the most merciful thing that had happened to

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Speaker 1: him throughout this entire event. Because when you had mentioned

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Speaker 1: there were eighteen stab wounds, I want to make a

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Speaker 1: slight correction here because it's not just eighteen stab wounds.

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Speaker 1: Let's call them sharp for injuries, which is in forensics

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Speaker 1: is generally the term that we use that can either

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Speaker 1: imply a stab wound you think about a knife being

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Speaker 1: buried into somebody, or it can be a slice or

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Speaker 1: an incised wound. And in Gannon's case, according to some

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Speaker 1: of the preliminary information that has come out from the police,

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Speaker 1: Gannon had an awareness Jackie, he had an awareness that

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Speaker 1: he was being attacked. So that means that more than likely,

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Speaker 1: more than likely, he tried to fight this person off

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Speaker 1: with all of his might. He had defensive wounds on

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Speaker 1: his hands, on his wrists, on his arms, and then

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Speaker 1: whoever did this to him buried a knife multiple times

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Speaker 1: into his body, in his chest and in his back,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it really gives you pause to think about,

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Speaker 1: you know, what kind of person would do this to

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Speaker 1: an eleven year old little boy over and over again.

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Speaker 1: And to make it even worse, there's apparently evidence that

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Speaker 1: he sustained some blunt force trauma to the head. So

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Speaker 1: that means that all the while he's being stabbed, he's

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Speaker 1: also being beaten. And then finally, like I said, mercifully,

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Speaker 1: he was shot at that point in time. The interesting

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Speaker 1: thing about this is the following and this is a

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Speaker 1: key piece of evidence. This gunshot wound that he sustained

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Speaker 1: from this nine millimeter, which is a semi automatic handgun.

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Speaker 1: The actual projectile was recovered from his body, and I

296
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,359
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm I'm amazed at, you know, the evidence that

297
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,439
Speaker 1: we can recover, particularly when you think about all of

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Speaker 1: these locations that this little boy's body was in and

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Speaker 1: moved multiple times in a state of decomposition. They still

300
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,399
Speaker 1: were able to recover this round, and this round is

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Speaker 1: going to be very critical in this case finally comes

302
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Speaker 1: to trial. And let me tell you why that sound

303
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,879
Speaker 1: that they recovered from Gannon's body down in Florida. When

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00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,680
Speaker 1: they did the autopsy, that round was actually matched up

305
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,560
Speaker 1: to a nine millimeter pistol that they found in the

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Speaker 1: home Afghan a stepmother. That's a big piece of information

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00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 1: because that actually winds up giving you what's referred to

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00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 1: as a ballistic fingerprint. Those markings that are left on

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Speaker 1: that bullet. You know, from the traveling down that barrel,

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Speaker 1: that rifle barrel, this lead projectile traveling down this rifle

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Speaker 1: barrel leaves these marks on the exterior of this projectile

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00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,200
Speaker 1: and it buries into the tissue. Now those markings can

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Speaker 1: be matched up to the barrel of this weapon and

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00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 1: it doesn't even matter. And this is a fantastic thing

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Speaker 1: about about ballistic study. You can have a nine millimeter

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Speaker 1: pistol that's made by the same company we won't say

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00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 1: as specific manufacturer, we'll just call it company A by

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00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,720
Speaker 1: company A. It can be the same model, it can

319
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 1: come off with the same production line. But guess what,

320
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: each one of the ballistic markings in those barrels made

321
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 1: at the same time are going to be unique to

322
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,159
Speaker 1: that weapon, and at the end of the day, that

323
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,359
Speaker 1: might be the piece of evidence that winds up getting

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00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 1: a conviction. In this case, in relation to a Gannon

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Speaker 1: being shot, we know that the crime scene was very bloody.

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Speaker 1: Is there a difference or how much difference does distance

327
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Speaker 1: make in the amount of blood and where it shows

328
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Speaker 1: up in the room? Are you going to have a

329
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Speaker 1: larger dispersal if you're shot from farther away as opposed

330
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Speaker 1: to up close? I think that one of the key

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Speaker 1: things here. We we do know this. I can tell

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Speaker 1: you this when you have what's referred to as a

333
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 1: hard contact or press contact gunshot wound, which means that

334
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 1: the perpetrator would take the end of the barrel, the

335
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 1: muzzle of the weapon and tightly press it against the skin. Uh.

336
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Speaker 1: Not only are you going to have the projectile entering

337
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Speaker 1: the body and that obviously creates a tremendous amount of pressure,

338
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 1: but you're gonna have this expansion of gas, and many

339
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 1: times associated with that, there will be a tremendous amount

340
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 1: of blood that issues forth from that. Now more than likely,

341
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 1: if if he was shot in the jaw, Uh, you're

342
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 1: not gonna have the same amount of blood that you

343
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Speaker 1: might have for instance, if if he was if if

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Speaker 1: he was shot directly into his skull into the cranium

345
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Speaker 1: itself with a tightly held weapon. But what we can tell,

346
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Speaker 1: and you're talking about range here, we can tell the

347
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 1: distance of the muzzle, the end of the muzzle from

348
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Speaker 1: the actual injury itself. Now, this could be compromised a

349
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 1: little bit, just so folks at home understand, don't get

350
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 1: too excited. It can be compromised as a result of

351
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 1: the decomposition. Let's remember this precious little boy was down

352
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 1: for two months after death, Jackie. So the biological process

353
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 1: that are going on in decomposition can compromise the pathologist

354
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 1: ability to determine range of fire. Now, if if this

355
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 1: was a tightly held weapon, and let's say, if folks

356
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 1: will find kind of this area below your ear where

357
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 1: your job begins to descend, that's a rather firm piece

358
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Speaker 1: of bone. If this weapon was applied to the jaw

359
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 1: in a very tight press contact area, are are entrance area,

360
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: you can actually have a soit deposition on the bone

361
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 1: itself that will travel pass through the skin and kind

362
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: of uh tattoo this area around the bone as well.

363
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: So that might still be there. Um, And the saving

364
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: grace here is that I would imagine in Gannon's case,

365
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: they would have taken microscopic sections of the injury, which

366
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: happens very commonly at autopsy with gunshot ones, and they'll

367
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 1: look at them microscopically to get an idea as to

368
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 1: the dispersal of say, unpurned gunpowder in the skin that

369
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: might still be embedded there. You could still appreciate it,

370
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: probably a microscopic level, and then you begin to measure

371
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: that out and you kind of it gets kind of

372
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,919
Speaker 1: complicated this point, but you kind of do a ratio

373
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: relative to the disbursement of the powder grains that are

374
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: left behind, and that will give you an idea as

375
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 1: to roughly the distance of the gunshot wound in Gannett's case.

376
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: So let's talk forensically just a little bit about what

377
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: was found with Gannon's body. There was bloody bedding and

378
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 1: a pillow, so his comforter and the sheets that were

379
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 1: found with Gannon's body a lot of blood on there.

380
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 1: Is it likely the blood came from him being wrapped

381
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: up in those items or do you or is there

382
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: a way to know? Yeah, actually there is kind of

383
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: a way to know, Jackie, And I'm glad you brought

384
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: this up because it's you know, in these horrible cases,

385
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: you know, as investigate is we look for the silver lining,

386
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: if you will, and all of these things, you have

387
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: to look past the horror of it many times to

388
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 1: get to the answers that science is dying to tell us. Um.

389
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: And in this particular case, if he was in fact beaten, stabbed,

390
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: and shot on the surface of these bed linens that

391
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: you're talking about, that's going to have the blood staining

392
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 1: that will be there will be more dynamic, Okay. You'll

393
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 1: you'll get maybe uh, a spreading of high velocity blood

394
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: staining that's left behind, say for instance, from a gunshot woman,

395
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: or when you have a beating that takes place. I'm

396
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: not saying this is a case with him, but lots

397
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: of times with a beating, Uh, you'll get kind of

398
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: a medium velocity blood staining. Okay. Then on top of that,

399
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: you have the dynamic of transference of blood where the

400
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: body is seeking blood. Okay. And so as you begin

401
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,959
Speaker 1: to wrap or envelope the body in type of cloth,

402
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: maybe clothing that's left behind those sorts of things, that's

403
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: kind of a contacting transfer of blood, and that looks

404
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: completely different then say a dynamic that goes on during

405
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: the actual fatal events. So yeah, it's possible. My only

406
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: concern though, again we come back to this uh process

407
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 1: of decomposition, and this is kind of multilayered itself. I'll

408
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: try to keep this as brief as possible, but when

409
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: you're looking at this, keep in mind the blood itself

410
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,479
Speaker 1: is a biological component, and blood is not just blood

411
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: and of itself. You know, you've got red blood cells,

412
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: white blood cells, you've got plasmy You've got all of

413
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: these ingredients of blood um and they're decomposing too, along

414
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: with the tissue of the body, so it's beginning to

415
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: break down. Then you've got decompositional fluid that's created from

416
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: the body, so that's going to compromise sustain as well.

417
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: So that's something that the police will have to content

418
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: end with. One of the fantastic things here, I think though,

419
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: that is really a real asset for the police is

420
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: the fact that he all of this evidence was actually

421
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: contained in here. So if you think about Gannon's body,

422
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: it was essentially cocooned and protected to a great degree.

423
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 1: This perpetrator did a great disservice to themselves because these

424
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: were not disposed of. And also the perpetrator may have

425
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: left things like hairs behind that came off of their head.

426
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: If that person has got a particularly kind of haircut,

427
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 1: if they've got a particularly kind of hair dye that's

428
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: left behind, or if you have a hair shaft that's intact,

429
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: they might be able to get DNA off of it.

430
00:26:44,480 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: And that's gonna be very, very difficult to explain away

431
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: those of us that our parents think about precious little

432
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: love year old boy in how full of life they are. Jackie,

433
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: what a wait for for this child's life to have ended,

434
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: especially when you find out that his stepmother is accused

435
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: of this murder and that she asked her teenage daughter

436
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: to stop by the store and buy supplies to help

437
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: Latitia Stout clean up after this murder. She asked her

438
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 1: daughter to stop by the store and buy carpet cleaning supplies,

439
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: baking soda, trash bags, and a few other things to

440
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: help cover up the evidence of her horrendous crime. Do

441
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: you not just want to stand up, Joe as a

442
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: forensic investigator and and tell these these perpetrators, these murderers,

443
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: that guys, this is not going to get rid of

444
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 1: the evidence of what you did. Apparently the people don't

445
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 1: watch true crime shows, right, And I think a lot

446
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: of it goes to the fact that they get friends,

447
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: and you know, there's a there's a bigger element here

448
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,479
Speaker 1: to Jackie that's absolutely heartbreaking. It's the fact that this

449
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: individual involved this teenage girl in this I mean, let's

450
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: just think about that just for a second, because the facto,

451
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: you would think that the teenager would have born witness,

452
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: maybe not to the attack itself, but certainly to the aftermath.

453
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: Can you imagine how horrible it is maybe she facilitated

454
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: aiding in the cleanup at this point in time, And

455
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: then can you imagine going to the local grocery store

456
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: and walking down the aisle where all the detergents are

457
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: in the carpet cleaners, and you're thinking, Okay, I'm gonna

458
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: buy carpet cleaner in order to clean up the blood

459
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: of this precious little boy who I played with, are

460
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: entertained or watched TV with, or games or played games with,

461
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: all these sorts of things. I'm gonna buy this, and

462
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: then I'm going to go back and aid in this

463
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: clean You know, well, now and at the moment, Joe,

464
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: we do not know whether the daughter knew what had happened.

465
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: It could just be Mom called and said, hey, I

466
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: need to clean the carpets again and spilled something. So

467
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,239
Speaker 1: we don't know yet whether the daughter knew what had

468
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: happened or if she found out once you we at home.

469
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,719
Speaker 1: But I get your point. That would be an absolutely

470
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: horrible image to have in your mind. Yeah, and and

471
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: to go beyond beyond that point. You're right, you are

472
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: when you say that there's really no extent that she's

473
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: going to be able to go to UH to rid

474
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: herself of all this biological evidence. And you know, we've

475
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: talked about thousands of times with with Nancy Grace. Um.

476
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: We we have methodologies and forensic science to recover what

477
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: is what is in fact left behind all that remains,

478
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: if you will, when it comes to UH agents like

479
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 1: blum and All and blue Star and those things that

480
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: when these items even on a cleaned area, UM, and

481
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: sometimes these cleaned areas are not even defeated with bleach,

482
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,239
Speaker 1: we can go back and apply these agents. And the

483
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: reason they work so well is if folks at home

484
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: have ever heard you know, you have iron poor blood, UM.

485
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: You know they talk about how blood is you need

486
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: to have high iron levels in order to have healthy

487
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,479
Speaker 1: blood cells. And this sort of saying, well, that's one

488
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: of the things that luminalal uh interacts with, interacts with

489
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: the metallic agents that are contained or it interacts with

490
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: the metallic elements that are contained within blood, things like iron,

491
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: things like copper, for instance. So that's what we're actually

492
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: looking for, and that's what gives it this luminescence when

493
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: it contacts it. And you know, one of the most

494
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: striking things when you're on a crime scene and I've

495
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: I've actually been on a couple that had happened years

496
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,239
Speaker 1: and years ago. Jackie and somebody either rolled over on

497
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: it or we had suspicion that something that happened in

498
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: that environment ten years a decade later, you can go in,

499
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: you can actually apply an agent like luminal of Blue Star,

500
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: and you turn those lights off and all of a sudden,

501
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: it just burst. It just absolutely bursts on your eyesight

502
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: and you can see this luminous in this glow that's

503
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: left behind, and it's you know, I guess waxing philosophical.

504
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: It is almost like you know, the dead are accusing

505
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: at that point time. You know, there's that old verse

506
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: in the Biblis says his blood cries out from the ground,

507
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: you know, and so you're you know, you can actually

508
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: see it, and it's it's quite striking. As I learned

509
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: from you, Joe Scott Morrigan, questions pop up into my mind.

510
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: Does luminal and those blood detecting agents work on animal

511
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: blood as well as human blood or do they show

512
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: up the same? Yeah, they will. Actually it doesn't um

513
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: you know, when when we test, when we use a

514
00:31:54,400 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: test like luminal or or blue Star, where simply trying

515
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: to determine the presence of blood, it doesn't differentiate between

516
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: species at that point in time. We've got a variety

517
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: of other tests which are called presumptive testing. Then you

518
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: have specific testing that you go through at the scene

519
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: to determine first off, you know, like I think there's

520
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: a castle Meyer test, which is something to say yes,

521
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: this is in fact blood, and there's another level you

522
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: go beyond that to say yes this is human versus animal.

523
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: And then you go beyond that when you get into

524
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: things like blood typing and all those sorts of things

525
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: until we can put a very fine point on it.

526
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: You know, nowadays where we can begin to talk about

527
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: things like DNA testing that breaks it even further down

528
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: into an elemental level, at a molecular level, so yeah,

529
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: we can differentiate. So obviously that has nothing to do

530
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: with this case of eleven year old again and stout.

531
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: The question just popped into my mind, as I said,

532
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: because I learned things from you. But you were talking

533
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: about being able years later to distinguish and find for

534
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: the blood to be able to show up years later.

535
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: So you're saying basically, any porous material the blood is

536
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: going to soak into and no amount of cleaning is

537
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: going to get it out. I suppose that there is

538
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: a certain amount of cleaning that could be done to

539
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: facilitate this, but it would require such a commitment and

540
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: knowledge and understanding on the part of the individual that

541
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: was trying to eradicate those stains um that it's almost

542
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: a herculean effort in order to do this. Generally, about

543
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: the best way to do it is take up that

544
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: area and burn it. But you know, I've even worked

545
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: cases where, you know, we had people that were assaulted

546
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: on carpets and the blood soaked through the base of

547
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: the carpet went down to the padding and actually wound

548
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: up on an underlying subsurface, and we were still able

549
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: to appreciate blood on the subsurface. So it's very very

550
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: daunting task, to say the very least. I'm Joseph Scott

551
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body backsh