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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to it could happen here a show about things

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Speaker 3: falling apart this week. The thing falling apart is the

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Speaker 3: US healthcare system science in general, but specifically the healthcare system.

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Speaker 3: I'm Garrison Davis and today I'm joined by a very

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Speaker 3: special returning guest, doctor Kappa Hoode.

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Speaker 4: Hello.

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Speaker 5: Hey, Yes, the thing falling apart is you, the listener.

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Speaker 5: So it's very important that you listen up. You were

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Speaker 5: going to do anyways, but in particular, you should be

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Speaker 5: paying attention here because this is important stuff.

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Speaker 3: So in mid May, we got some news in the

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Speaker 3: FDA CDC Human Health and Services front. As there's been

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Speaker 3: there's been a lot of news in the health front,

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Speaker 3: but specifically we're going to be talking about the new

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Speaker 3: guidelines for COVID vaccines that the FDA is trying to

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Speaker 3: push through in the United States. So the new FDA Commissioner,

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Speaker 3: Marty mccaray and the top vaccine regulator of an APRISAD

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Speaker 3: have published a quote unquote study you pushed back on

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Speaker 3: on the use of the word study in the New

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Speaker 3: England Journal of Medicine about the COVID vaccine booster shots. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and are going to be changing the guidelines for how

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Speaker 3: these are going to be administered and who has access

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Speaker 3: to them, particularly those under the age of sixty five,

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Speaker 3: might have a harder time getting the COVID booster that

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Speaker 3: they have like the past few years, requiring certain existing

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Speaker 3: conditions to qualify. And they have a whole bunch of

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Speaker 3: arguments for this. They say they're trying to make this

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Speaker 3: more in line with the vaccine guidelines and other countries

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Speaker 3: they're proposing for their studies on the necessity of COVID

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Speaker 3: vaccines for those under sixty five. Yeah, and for someone

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Speaker 3: like me who tries to keep up with COVID boosters

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Speaker 3: and you know, doesn't like it getting infected with COVID,

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Speaker 3: some of this can seem a little bit both confusing

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Speaker 3: and worrying and considering, like the anti vaccine takeover of

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Speaker 3: the FDA and like the federal Health services in general,

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Speaker 3: it's a frightening move.

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Speaker 5: I guess yeah. I think you're right to feel concerned.

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Speaker 5: It is something I am a little concerned about for

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Speaker 5: a couple of reasons. One, I mean, I just don't

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Speaker 5: flatly agree with limiting the use of the vaccines the

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Speaker 5: people they're planning to limit it to. I mean, this

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Speaker 5: is coming from the medical freedom crowd. I feel like

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Speaker 5: people should at least have the bodily autonomy to have

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Speaker 5: the vaccine if they want it.

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Speaker 4: That's a part of it.

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Speaker 5: But I'm actually even more concerned about the bigger sense

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Speaker 5: of what this represents. You know, on the surface, making

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Speaker 5: some changes is not totally unreasonable to our vaccine policy,

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Speaker 5: and we generally reassess our COVID vaccine policy annually, so

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Speaker 5: that's not too abnormal. But the thing is, we have

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Speaker 5: this whole system set in place to do it in

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Speaker 5: a efficient, smart way that is public, and there's a

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Speaker 5: process to it. If I can give you a little

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Speaker 5: bit of a sense of how it normally runs and

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Speaker 5: what's going to happen now, I think it'll explain why

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Speaker 5: I might have my concerns.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that would be very useful to hear. So normally there.

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Speaker 5: Are some clinical trials, there's some studies that happen, some

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Speaker 5: real world data, some points that can be looked at,

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Speaker 5: and then the FDA uses this advisory committee. Again, these

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Speaker 5: advisory committees are not career politicians. They're scientists, their public

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Speaker 5: health officials, their doctors, people volunteering their time. I don't

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Speaker 5: think they get paid other than maybe food and their expenses,

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Speaker 5: but other than that, they're not paid for just this job.

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Speaker 5: And what this group. The first group is called the

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Speaker 5: VRBPAC and they determine if it's a safe and effective vaccine.

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Speaker 5: If it is determined that way, then the FDA grants

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Speaker 5: a license and approval. From there. There's another group, the ACIP,

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Speaker 5: and that's an Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, and it's

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Speaker 5: the same sort of thing. It's a group made up

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Speaker 5: of scientists, healthcare professionals, public health professionals, and people will

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Speaker 5: come together. They'll determine who should get it, and then

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Speaker 5: the CDC director signs off and then it gets out

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Speaker 5: there to the world. Now, basically what we have is

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Speaker 5: two political pointees, both of which have these massive axes

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Speaker 5: to grind on the subject, have some severe chips on

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Speaker 5: their shoulder about what's happened so far to them in

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Speaker 5: this conversation and this dialogue. Who are going to bypass

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Speaker 5: this whole scientific system, who aren't to be looking at

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Speaker 5: these questions like what is our growing immunity? Is Annuel

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Speaker 5: Booster still warranted? And they're going to take this outside

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Speaker 5: of that and basically make the decision. And I find

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Speaker 5: that to be very concerning, even past like this, this

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Speaker 5: basic premise of like, you know, does this mean that

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Speaker 5: my friends or myself I won't be able to at

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Speaker 5: the vaccine that I want to get? So I find

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Speaker 5: it to be very concerning. And you alluded to that

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Speaker 5: article in the New England Journal of Medicine. It did

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Speaker 5: not alleviate my concerns.

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Speaker 3: One of the guys here, the guy who's heading up

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Speaker 3: the vaccine regulations, has compared the US COVID response to

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Speaker 3: Nazi Germany. He has boosted anti vaxx claims from Robert F.

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Speaker 3: Kennedy Junior.

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Speaker 4: And he's blocked me on Twitter. Come on, and truly

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Speaker 4: his most heinous offense. How could you block me I'm lovable.

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Speaker 3: No. Me and this guy Robert Evans were joking yesterday,

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Speaker 3: never heard of it. Vot about how some of your

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Speaker 3: like personal nemeses have been have been put into positions

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Speaker 3: of like government power, and how you're upset about that,

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Speaker 3: And I remarked, oh, first time, because this has unfortunately

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Speaker 3: been the trend of our work the past few years.

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Speaker 3: These these weird online figures who we've developed personal a

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Speaker 3: grievances against for being bad people suddenly now are like

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Speaker 3: in the p echelons of power in the US government.

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Speaker 4: Hey, I like them, they just don't like me.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if that's true, but regardless, do you

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Speaker 3: have any other notes on mccari and like specifically, Uh.

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Speaker 4: You know what I'll say.

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Speaker 5: So A big thing about this article that they put

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Speaker 5: in there, and what they talk about a lot is

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Speaker 5: trying to get more farm companies to do large studies,

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Speaker 5: which you know, on the surface totally reasonable. But the

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Speaker 5: thing about it is not every problem can be solved

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Speaker 5: with what's considered the quote unquote golden standard of studies,

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Speaker 5: the double blind randomized control study. Some studies just can't.

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Speaker 5: They want to see that these companies are doing these

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Speaker 5: studies to say that it's good and safe and beneficial

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Speaker 5: for younger people. But there's a couple problems with this, Okay, One,

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Speaker 5: I'm not entirely sure that's ethical. Like, if we have

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Speaker 5: something that works, if we know this vaccine helps, and

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Speaker 5: we do CDC studies have shown that these boosters help

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Speaker 5: for at least four to six.

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Speaker 1: Months, possibly life saving medication.

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Speaker 5: Exactly is it ethical to deny somebody that, Like, would

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Speaker 5: I want to be a part of that study.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't.

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Speaker 5: I wouldn't want to get potentially the placebo. So that's

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Speaker 5: part of it. But even beyond that, to do these studies,

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Speaker 5: it's lengthy. They are long studies. If you want to

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Speaker 5: do it and you want to do it right, it

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Speaker 5: takes a while. So by the time they do this,

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Speaker 5: by the time they do the study, even if I'm

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Speaker 5: being very generous in how long it takes them, by

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Speaker 5: the time we get the results, we'll be onto a

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Speaker 5: different mutation. We know that this thing mutates, we know

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Speaker 5: it's going to change into a different virus, and we

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Speaker 5: won't even know if that study that we just spent

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Speaker 5: all the time doing works on it. So we have

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Speaker 5: other options for studying these things. They're not double blind,

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Speaker 5: randomized controlled studies. But we have other studies at work,

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Speaker 5: and there are plenty of epidemiologists out there, vaccinologists, people

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Speaker 5: who know way more about this than me, and to

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Speaker 5: be fair, know more about this than Prasad and McCary.

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Speaker 5: They're the ones saying this is not a good idea.

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Speaker 5: So I'm like saying, let's listen to them. Let's listen.

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Speaker 5: They know what they're talking about. They're smart people. I've

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Speaker 5: met some of them. They're great, and it doesn't make

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Speaker 5: sense to me on an ethical or practical level to

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Speaker 5: do it that way.

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Speaker 4: Do you know what doesn't make sense to me? Cave?

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Speaker 4: I know? I do? I do? I do? I can

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Speaker 4: I say? Kind? I guess you can guess.

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Speaker 5: I'm guessing that commercials don't make sense to you, But really,

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Speaker 5: at this point in your career, they should make sense.

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Speaker 3: I should know by now. But still the concept is

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Speaker 3: is a little bizarre. Here they are.

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Speaker 4: Okay, we are back.

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Speaker 3: I guess let's get into more how this will affect

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Speaker 3: the average listener, Like what these things could mean like

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Speaker 3: both in I guess the short term and then like

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Speaker 3: the long term, if you're trying to plan out your

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Speaker 3: you know, your health a journey. What kind of like

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Speaker 3: risks you have if you're you know, compromise, what that

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Speaker 3: means for you versus if you're magical, perfectly healthy, you know,

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Speaker 3: twenty five year olds, Yeah, prancing around with with no issues.

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Speaker 4: France and as the kids do. Kids love to prance.

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Speaker 5: So in the short term, it's not clear. In a

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Speaker 5: month that advisory committee I mentioned the ACIP is going

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Speaker 5: to meet, or they're supposed to meet, I don't know

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Speaker 5: if it's all going to happen, and they're supposed to

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Speaker 5: determine who should get this, so first things first, they

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Speaker 5: could they could disagree. It would be the first time

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Speaker 5: I've seen it. I've never seen the FDA and the

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Speaker 5: ACIP not be in lockstep in this regard. And maybe

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Speaker 5: it's happened, but I can't think of it in like,

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Speaker 5: I don't know, I don't know what'll happen. That'll be

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Speaker 5: a little bit of chaos and it'll be interesting to

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Speaker 5: see what happens to that point. But if it goes

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Speaker 5: as the FDA now plans, it will limit who can

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Speaker 5: potentially get these vaccines if you're not over sixty five,

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Speaker 5: if you don't have a what's considered a risk for

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Speaker 5: serious disease like asthma, cancer, kidney disease, certain types of

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Speaker 5: liver lung disease, diabetes. If you don't have any of

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Speaker 5: these things, then it's not clear to me. Will the

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Speaker 5: pharmacist not give it to you, Will the pharmacist check

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Speaker 5: if you tell them you have one of these things?

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Speaker 5: Will insurance cover it? I don't know, and that's really concerning.

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Speaker 5: I think the price is going to go up, and

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Speaker 5: that does relate to the bigger concern, the long term

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Speaker 5: problem in this, which is, I mean, Kennedy has said

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Speaker 5: he's not taking away vaccines. Great, he doesn't actually need

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Speaker 5: to take away vaccines. He just needs to do things

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Speaker 5: like this so that nobody wants to pay for it.

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Speaker 5: Nobody wants to go through the process of studying it,

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Speaker 5: nobody's going to make them. Insurance companies aren't going to

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Speaker 5: pay for it. People aren't gonna end up being able

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Speaker 5: to afford it. They're gonna be lesser and fewer of them,

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Speaker 5: and they will go away naturally on their own because

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Speaker 5: of this. That's really the long term concern that I

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Speaker 5: have with this. The short term concern, I mean, I

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Speaker 5: don't know, it's going to be interesting, you know, like

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Speaker 5: there's certain things on this list that the CDC has,

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Speaker 5: Like for example, physical inactivity is on this list.

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Speaker 4: I mean, how who could argue with you on that?

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Speaker 5: Like, you know, if you tell the pharmacistre having physical inactivity,

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Speaker 5: like will they I don't know, will they check that?

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Speaker 5: How will they check that? So I don't know what

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Speaker 5: will happen in the short term and the long term.

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Speaker 5: Definitely big concerns.

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Speaker 3: It seems like part of their strategy here is just

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Speaker 3: putting as many roadblocks in between you and vaccines that

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Speaker 3: could save your life as possible to further whatever like

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Speaker 3: conspiracy driven worldview that the people at the top have

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Speaker 3: and just like the inhumane side effects that's going to

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Speaker 3: have across the entire population.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, I mean to also put this into context, COVID.

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Speaker 5: We're in a better situation than we were years ago.

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Speaker 5: That's certainly true. But at least from the CDC records alone,

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Speaker 5: forty seven thousand Americans died from COVID related diseases last year.

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Speaker 5: At least two thirds of that number were directly due

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Speaker 5: to COVID, and amongst that there are about two hundred

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Speaker 5: and thirty deaths from kids. That is a significant number.

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Speaker 5: And at least you can say at least one hundred

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Speaker 5: and thirty of those kids were directly related to COVID

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Speaker 5: and not from some other problems. So this is significant

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Speaker 5: stuff that we're still dealing with. In long COVID can

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Speaker 5: affect people. Long COVID can affect all groups. It can

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Speaker 5: affect young and old. So it is concerning and it

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Speaker 5: bothers me in particular that the group doing this, as

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Speaker 5: I said, getting is the medical freedom group, and this

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Speaker 5: is this is sort of the exact opposite of this.

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Speaker 3: I think this demonstrates how much a medical freedom has

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Speaker 3: actually just been a dog whistle for like this conspiracy

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Speaker 3: theory driven belief this entire time. Like people clamoring for

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Speaker 3: medical freedom don't actually believe in it. They're against trans healthcare,

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Speaker 3: they're against vaccines in general. They want to put autistic

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Speaker 3: kids into like behavioral like therapy programs to try to

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Speaker 3: make them not not autistic. Like it's it's it's not

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Speaker 3: actually about medical freedom. It's about it's about advancing a

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Speaker 3: very specific conservative and conspiratorial worldview that actually controls what

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Speaker 3: other people are allowed to do with their bodies. This

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Speaker 3: is like a massive, a massive part of their project,

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Speaker 3: and like, I don't know how else you can like

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Speaker 3: interpret moves like this which are just going to jeopardize

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Speaker 3: people and put them even in more danger.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's going to get worse. We can see

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Speaker 5: the effects already. Just today, Moderna withdrew their application for

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Speaker 5: a covid flu combo vaccine, a one shot vaccine that

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Speaker 5: would have both, and the studies on that so far

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Speaker 5: were really good. Actually they showed they looked really promising

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Speaker 5: and they're just doing this because you know, okay, now

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Speaker 5: do we have to have these double blind control studies

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Speaker 5: for this?

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Speaker 4: And they know it's going to be a hostile environment.

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Speaker 4: And now it's.

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Speaker 5: Withdrawn and there's going to be more and more of that.

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Speaker 5: Like way way before your time or my time, there

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Speaker 5: used to be more pharmaceutical companies making vaccines. There used

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Speaker 5: to be a lot more than there are now there's

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Speaker 5: only a handful now, but there used to be a lot.

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Speaker 5: And then there was like this CBS show about the

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Speaker 5: protessis vaccine and it was called like Russian roulette, this

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Speaker 5: could give you, like this could end your life. And

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Speaker 5: there's like one like made for TV like show about

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Speaker 5: it. It wasn't a movie, but it was like a special

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Speaker 5: they did, and it raised such concerns that letters started

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Speaker 5: pouring in to the network, and they then started pouring

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Speaker 5: into Congress and there was a whole hearing and after

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Speaker 5: that we had a significant drop off in regards to

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Speaker 5: the companies that make these vaccines, and we have a

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Speaker 5: few now, and I am worried that this could be

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Speaker 5: another sort of inflection point in that in that history,

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Speaker 5: in that.

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Speaker 4: Arc of vaccines, and we're going to get even fewer now.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's been devastating watching the advancement of the

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Speaker 3: HIV vaccine, which seemed like it was nearing completion, gets

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Speaker 3: tolled for a number of reasons, including like DEI policies

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Speaker 3: getting pushed across these health departments because the HIV vaccine

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Speaker 3: research uses, you know, terms like gay and trans and

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Speaker 3: it mentioned gender. Yeah, you know, all all that kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff, which is which people focused on in the

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Speaker 3: first few months. I'm super nervous about the COVID nasal

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Speaker 3: vaccine getting basically shelved, and every like new thing we

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Speaker 3: see come under the FDA just makes those fears heightened.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's pretty rad.

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Speaker 3: Not to be too depressing, but that is kind of

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Speaker 3: the that is that is the mood of this show

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Speaker 3: in some ways. Yeah, like people people can still you know,

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Speaker 3: wash hands mask up at this point, people can still

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Speaker 3: get the vaccine. But like the way that the way

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Speaker 3: that we've been like treating like the widespread health of

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Speaker 3: this country has has has already been pretty bad the

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Speaker 3: past few years. Yeah, and this is like trying to

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Speaker 3: intentionally make it worse.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it does. It does feel like that sometimes. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: I am concerned about it all, but you're all right,

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Speaker 5: we still have as of now. I mean, there's still

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Speaker 5: some options going forward in terms of vaccines, and hopefully

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Speaker 5: we'll continue to have them totally and we'll see how

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Speaker 5: this plays out. I am really curious. The next month

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Speaker 5: will be very telling when we have that ACIP Advisory

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Speaker 5: Committee again. If it's allowed to happen, and they allow

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Speaker 5: people like Paul offit, people who are real vaccinologists, people

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Speaker 5: who know about vaccines, not just pointed political people, but

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Speaker 5: people who actually study this and know it. If they

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Speaker 5: come on and they can provide enough pressure, if people

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Speaker 5: can support them, then I do think that there is

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Speaker 5: there is some hope that the pushback will will help

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Speaker 5: us alleviate some of this restriction.

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Speaker 3: I hope would the people on the like ACIP panel

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Speaker 3: be like political appointees, Do they have the same risk

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Speaker 3: of all these other people put in under RFK junior

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Speaker 3: where they're very clearly politically there versus like careerists who

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Speaker 3: are actually actual experts in the field.

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Speaker 5: Well, unless they change it. The ACIP is not set

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Speaker 5: up like that. The ACIP is just you know, these

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Speaker 5: really great group of independent doctors and scientists, public health

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Speaker 5: experts that are using real world data. They're looking at

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Speaker 5: how the immunity shifts over time. They're looking at the

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Speaker 5: virus and seeing if it's changing. Really volunteers that come

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Speaker 5: from the world of science to do so. So as

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Speaker 5: of now, they're not. That's not how the group works.

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Speaker 5: I don't know if that'll hold. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 5: see any reason why they couldn't if they wanted to

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Speaker 5: scrap the ACIP get rid of the people on it.

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Speaker 5: You know, people who are vaccinologists who are of great

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Speaker 5: significance to the community, like you know.

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Speaker 4: Peter Hotez or your Paul Offits.

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Speaker 5: These scientists who really study and look at these things

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Speaker 5: and put in just people who are already in line.

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Speaker 5: I mean, unless I'm missing something about it, I don't

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Speaker 5: see why they couldn't do that.

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Speaker 4: I hope they don't.

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Speaker 5: I think there's enough scientific background in Prasad and McCary

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Speaker 5: that they would recognize the importance of an independent council.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's good to know. We don't need to be

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Speaker 3: fully doom or pilled on that, but it's a good

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Speaker 3: thing to watch out for.

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Speaker 4: Do you know what I'm gonna be watching out for, Kava,

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Speaker 4: I do, I certainly do.

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Speaker 5: You're gonna be listening more than watching, but you're going

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Speaker 5: to be listening for some really great ads.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Cob, I guess I'd also like to touch on

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Speaker 3: this actual piece in the in the in the New

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Speaker 3: England Journal of Medicine. Yeah, they're quote unquote to evidence

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Speaker 3: based approach to COVID nineteen vaccination, which is more of

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Speaker 3: a blog post, right, it is not a study, it is.

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Speaker 3: It is a blog post. And specifically they talk about

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Speaker 3: how the United States has a much more like severe

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Speaker 3: vaccine strategy than other countries in Europe, and they try

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Speaker 3: to use this to justify their own beliefs, saying that

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Speaker 3: they're trying to bring things in line with the vaccine

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Speaker 3: policies in other countries.

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Speaker 1: Is this real?

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Speaker 3: Is this true? I don't live in Europe. I'm not

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Speaker 3: super familiar with the European vaccine guidelines. I don't expect

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Speaker 3: you to be an expert either.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 5: It's really funny though that you mentioned it, because it's

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Speaker 5: so funny what they decide to endorse about European policy,

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Speaker 5: like will socialized medicine. Most of these European countries have

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Speaker 5: socialized medicine. They will have nothing to do with that,

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Speaker 5: and then they'll nitpick certain things. So there is some

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Speaker 5: truth to the fact that we are doing things differently.

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Speaker 5: And again I'm not opposed to looking at that and

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Speaker 5: being like, Okay, what are the countries doing, does it work?

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Speaker 5: And could we do that? So there is a difference

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Speaker 5: are currently until now in the US, it was generally

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Speaker 5: recommended for anyone over six months. People weren't being made

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Speaker 5: to have this. By the way, again, medical freedom, you know.

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Speaker 3: No, I was pretty sure that Joe Biden will send

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Speaker 3: a swat team to your house and shoot you unless

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Speaker 3: you get the COVID vaccine. That's what I was told

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Speaker 3: on the RFKJ and your podcast.

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Speaker 5: I mean he is somehow simultaneously a decrepit old man

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Speaker 5: who's certainly confused, but somehow able to orchestrate an incredible

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Speaker 5: from the depths darkness, deep state espionage. So I guess

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Speaker 5: it's possible, and that's how we do it. It's how Canada

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Speaker 5: does it. The UK they do do it a little differently.

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Speaker 5: They do it for people greater than sixty five. They

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Speaker 5: do it for residents and care homes. They do it

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Speaker 5: for people greater than six months and high risk and

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Speaker 5: people who are greater than twelve years of age but

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Speaker 5: are in a house where someone's demo compromised. They do

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Speaker 5: it for anyone who's over sixteen who helps care for

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Speaker 5: someone who's vulnerable. And they do it for all social

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Speaker 5: and healthcare workers. I mean, they have a different system

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Speaker 5: in place. They have, as I mentioned, socialized healthcare in general.

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Speaker 5: They're very good about their vaccines, so it's hard to tell.

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Speaker 5: It's a little bit of apples and oranges. But it's

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Speaker 5: funny what they decided to pick and not pick about that.

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Speaker 5: And it's also funny why some groups are missing under

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Speaker 5: our care, Like a lot of places will vaccinate anyone

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Speaker 5: who's overweight. Here they don't consider being overweight a risk

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Speaker 5: for COVID, so that it is funny how they're choosing

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Speaker 5: their nitpicking certain things that are recommendations common recommendations in

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Speaker 5: other countries and not using them here, so they do

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Speaker 5: it a little differently in Europe. That is true, and

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Speaker 5: again this is the kind of stuff that they're going

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Speaker 5: to evaluate every year. The ACIP will evaluate the look

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Speaker 5: at the emerging data, to look at the other countries,

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Speaker 5: to look at what's being done, and they'll discuss it.

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Speaker 5: So it is true, and it does seem reasonable on

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Speaker 5: the surface when they say it like that, hey, we're

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Speaker 5: just trying to get and they mentioned this in the

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Speaker 5: New England Journal of Medicine article, we're just trying to

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Speaker 5: get more in line with the rest of the world.

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Speaker 5: And that's not really true. It's like they're just picking

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Speaker 5: certain things that they want to agree with and ignoring

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Speaker 5: all the other stuff about their healthcare system that we

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Speaker 5: could benefit from.

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Speaker 3: One of the more wide aspects of this, again Glorified

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Speaker 3: blog post is talking about how the COVID vaccine booster

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Speaker 3: program has actually undermined public trust in vaccinations, which is

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Speaker 3: like again, this is like a we're all looking for

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Speaker 3: the guy who did this moment wearing the hot dog

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Speaker 3: cost you I quote. Even healthcare workers remain hesitant, with

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Speaker 3: less than one third participating in twenty twenty three to

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four fall Booster program. There may even be

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Speaker 3: a ripple effect. Public trust and vaccination in general has declined,

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Speaker 3: resulting in reluctance to vaccinate that is affecting even vital

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Speaker 3: immunization programs such as that for these hills mumps and rebella.

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Speaker 4: Oh so weird.

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Speaker 5: I wonder if it's the people that have been talking

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Speaker 5: about how corrupt and terrible the FDA and CDC.

436
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 4: Are for like the last five six years.

437
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 3: It's insane that they're like able to like do this

438
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 3: like it's yeah, I don't.

439
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 5: I mean, it is an ongoing inside joke amongst people

440
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 5: in the medical commune unity.

441
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 4: The hot dog meme guy.

442
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 5: That's a very common like attribute to these to these

443
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 5: characters who talk about, you know how how they're clearly

444
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 5: sowing the seeds of mistrust and then capitalizing off of it.

445
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 4: I don't know if they even mean to or not.

446
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 5: And people ask me a lot they're like you know why,

447
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 5: why are they why why do they do this? And

448
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 5: I that's a tough one for me. That's your friend,

449
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 5: Robert Evans. I ask him that every time I'm on

450
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 5: his podcast, as there's a point in the podcast where

451
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 5: I earnestly and I don't do this on purpose, where

452
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 5: I just don't understand, and I need to understand why

453
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 5: it's being done. And in these cases it's hard, you know. Previously,

454
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 5: Vne Persod had a podcast that people really like called

455
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 5: The Plenary Podcast in the medical community. I never listened

456
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 5: to it because I don't listen to medical podcasts.

457
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 4: Why would I.

458
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 5: And what it did basically was it would break down

459
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 5: like studies and go over them in a very sort

460
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 5: of skeptical way. And I think it's good as a

461
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 5: doctor to be skeptical. I think that's a good attribute

462
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 5: for us to have, and it was useful in many ways.

463
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 5: But then I don't know if it's audience capture. I

464
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 5: don't know if it's true belief. I don't know what shifted,

465
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 5: but it does seem that it was a steady growth

466
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 5: into this contrarian perspective from the medical community that doesn't

467
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 5: totally make sense to me, Like they all kind of

468
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 5: feel like they're Galileo or samulwise, that they had this rare,

469
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 5: contrarian opinion that made them special and they were attacked for.

470
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 5: But in my mind, it's not so much that as

471
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 5: it is. You know, there is a scientific process that

472
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 5: we have. Galileo followed a scientific process and that's how

473
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 5: it came to those conclusions. These people, I don't feel

474
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 5: are following that, and they are strict to their method

475
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 5: idolatry to what they feel needs to be done, and

476
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 5: I don't feel like they're listening to the experts in

477
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 5: the field explained to them why that's not the case.

478
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 5: That's how every hero probably feels in every situation. But

479
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 5: they have somehow become the victims in this story, and

480
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 5: I am very curious to see now that they're in power,

481
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 5: how that shifts and if they maintain this sort of

482
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 5: victim mentality.

483
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 3: Well, how can you be a victim when we have

484
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,239
Speaker 3: beef Tallow back at stake and shake everyone. We did it,

485
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 3: Beef t We did it, Joe, We're back.

486
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 4: We sure did. Maga coated coconut oil.

487
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: Now I'll be completely healthy again.

488
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, that is so funny to me that be

489
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 5: I mean like, we could talk about seed oils, we

490
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 5: could talk about the quote unquote hateful eight, we could

491
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 5: talk about all that stuff. But it's it's pretty clear

492
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 5: that oils are better than tallow for your health, and

493
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 5: beef tallow there's very little, Like there's a little proof

494
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 5: to prove that it's good for you, and a lot

495
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 5: of proof to say that animal products are bad for

496
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 5: your heart. Yeah, so it's it's absurd that that's an

497
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 5: argument that we're still having at this in twenty twenty now.

498
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 3: Instead of frying in theef tablet oil, instead, I just

499
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 3: drink a full eight ounces of grape seed oil every

500
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 3: morning to wake up. It does wonders for me. It

501
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 3: just gets the whole body up and run in lubricates

502
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 3: the whole system.

503
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 4: That's right.

504
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 3: I know you can't give medical advice, but do you

505
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 3: have any advice to give listeners before we close?

506
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 4: At least people who are like.

507
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 3: You, afraid of what these changes from rfk's FDA will

508
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: mean for them in their community.

509
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's okay to be concerned about it,

510
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 5: but I do think there is some time to go.

511
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 5: There's going to be a lot of people from the

512
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 5: medical community fighting to try and fight these restrictions on

513
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 5: the vaccine. So we'll see how that goes. You will

514
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 5: probably be able to find ways to do it. You

515
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 5: should talk to your doctor about it because your doctor

516
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 5: probably can see a risk factor that you don't. If

517
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 5: you don't see one that automatically fits that list from

518
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 5: the CDC, your doctor might be able to find one

519
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 5: that is. And I'm not talking about fraud. I'm talking

520
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 5: about like real things. Your doctor may be able to

521
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 5: look through your chart, look through your history, talk to

522
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 5: you and find a risk factor that you didn't think

523
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 5: was a risk factor, like, for example, physical inactivity or

524
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 5: you know, smoking. So there are things that we can

525
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 5: look for. And as they shift those goalposts, which I'm

526
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 5: sure they will, we'll also be trying to find ways

527
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 5: around that as well. And you know, when the ACIP

528
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 5: comes out, there's going to be a lot of pressure

529
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 5: on them, and I think we can pressure our Congress

530
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 5: and we can pressure our representatives to support them at

531
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 5: least nominally to discuss it, if nothing else, because I

532
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 5: don't think this is getting talked about that much, So

533
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 5: I think if we can bring it to the public attention,

534
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 5: I think we can shift the narrative on vaccines. I

535
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 5: do believe that the narrative has shifted on covid and

536
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 5: vaccines in this terrible way, this revisionist way, where everyone

537
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 5: pretends it's not it wasn't a big deal and that

538
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 5: we didn't lose millions of people. And I think if

539
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 5: we can keep that in the public discourse, I think

540
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 5: that alone will help.

541
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 4: I think that's important for us to do.

542
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 5: And that's what people you know on Reddit and people

543
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 5: on the Internet and Facebook and all that stuff can do,

544
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 5: is they can help keep this in the public eye

545
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 5: and fight that incipient I don't if that's the right word.

546
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 5: Insidious is probably the right word. It's this really subtle

547
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 5: sort of reconstructing of the narrative of what covid was

548
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 5: and how important these vaccines are. So that's how people

549
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 5: can help in the immediate future. And then you know,

550
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 5: stay tuned, talk to your doctor about vaccines and when

551
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 5: you can get them, and get them as soon as

552
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 5: you can. I do think that's a good idea for

553
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 5: both flu and for COVID boosters when available.

554
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 3: Cave lovely talking with you as always. Where can people

555
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: hear you talk more on the internet.

556
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 5: I am on a podcast called The House of Po

557
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 5: and it is a humor adjacent, fun ish medical podcast.

558
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 3: I would say it's not adjacent to humor. I would

559
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 3: say it is on target.

560
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 4: What we're next door to humor. We next door to humor.

561
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 4: We speak a little humor, not a ton. But you

562
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 4: will like the show.

563
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 5: If you like this, I think you're gonna recognize a

564
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 5: lot of the same people. Gear, for example, has just

565
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 5: recently been on an episode, and you know, you'll we'll

566
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 5: get Gear on again, I hope, and you'll find people

567
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 5: that you like. There a lot of the same sorts

568
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 5: of people. We take a skeptical look at medical grifters

569
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 5: and the wellness community. So a lot of the same

570
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 5: stuff you love from these shows and the extended behind

571
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 5: the Bastard universe. You'll also get into I think our

572
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 5: podcast the House of Pod and find it anywhere The

573
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 5: House of Pod, the House of Pod.

574
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 3: The first time I met you online, I was invited

575
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: onto this show. And you know, it was a pretty

576
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 3: busy year twenty twenty. There's a lot going on for

577
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 3: me with you know, riots and such, and you know,

578
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 3: whatever damage was done to my brain via all that

579
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 3: tear gas and for some reason, and I don't quite

580
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: know why. I wonder if I was just conflating two messages,

581
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 3: but I thought I agreed to go onto a medieval

582
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: history podcast, not a medical podcast. So as things just started,

583
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 3: I was a little bit confused, and then I went

584
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 3: back to reread the message of like, oh no, I

585
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 3: definitely says medical, and I still don't quite know how

586
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 3: I did that.

587
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 4: Like I said, a lot going on that idea. Great,

588
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 4: whatever it was. Whenever you thought you were doing, you

589
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 4: did it well.

590
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 3: But whenever I think of your podcast, I now also

591
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 3: think about medieval history.

592
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 4: So there you go. Yeah, hey, okay, that's cool. I'll

593
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:44,719
Speaker 4: take it.

594
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 5: I'll think we did do an episode one. I mean

595
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,719
Speaker 5: not every episode is strictly like medical stuff. Like I

596
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 5: did an episode with these these guys who wrote this

597
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 5: book on Sparta and the battle with the Persians and

598
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 5: how this story has been sort of turned into something

599
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 5: grossly that's not partially because of three hundred and partially

600
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 5: because of other reasons.

601
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so there is a little bit of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

602
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 4: it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, you would like that episode.

603
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: How often do you think about the Roman Empire?

604
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 5: I don't I think about how the Persians kill the

605
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 5: lot of them, over them thermophully.

606
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 4: That brings me a little spark of joy. Okay, good

607
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 4: to know.

608
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 5: Just kidding listeners, don't I don't approve of people being murdered.

609
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 4: I don't. I don't even if they're jerks. Good to

610
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 4: say this day and age. Thank you so much, Cafe,

611
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 4: thank you, thank you for having me.

612
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: Welcome to take it happen here. I'm your host, Na Wong.

613
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: Today is the day before the thirty sixth anniversary of

614
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: the Tianneman Square massacre. We're doing something a little bit different.

615
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: Three years ago I wrote a pair of episodes about Tiannemen,

616
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: democracy and the International Workers Movement, expanding off a piece

617
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 1: I'd written for laos On a year before that. That

618
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: was a long time ago. The world is a fundamentally

619
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: different place than it was in twenty twenty one. Europe

620
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: has been consumed by war. Whole revolutions rose and fell.

621
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: The fact threat we defeated in the streets, returned to

622
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: power in a new and more terrifying form. In this new,

623
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: uglier and more brutal world, I wanted to return to Tianeman,

624
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: to return to one of the great horrors of another

625
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: age to see if we can take anything new from

626
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: the wreckage of the Death of Hope. I'm no longer

627
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: the same person I was when I originally wrote these episodes,

628
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: and so today and tomorrow are Tianamen remastered. There were

629
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: really three Tienemens. The first and most famous Tieneman was

630
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: a student protest inside Tianaman Square itself. If you've heard

631
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: the word Tienemen before this story, you know. The second

632
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: Tienemen was the Tienemen of the blocks of Beijing around

633
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: the square, blocks sees and transformed by Beijing's working class.

634
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: If you've heard about this Tienemen at all, it's probably

635
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: in the context of the tanks rolling through them on

636
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 1: their way to the square. And then there was the

637
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: third Tienemen, the protests in other cities, of which we

638
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: still years after I wrote the original piece. No distressingly

639
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: little about our focus today is on.

640
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 4: The first two.

641
00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: The students of the student protests were a weird ideologue

642
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: go grab back that cannot simply be reduced down to

643
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: the simplistic pro democracy label they've been settled with in

644
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: the three and a half decades since Tienemen. The short

645
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: version is this the students were pissed off about what's

646
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 1: called reform and Opening not going fast enough, and we

647
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: should talk about what reform and opening actually was. On

648
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: the one hand, you had some steps to ease restrictions

649
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: on free speech, rehabilitate intellectuals and other people were so

650
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: called bad class backgrounds, and allow for a broader public discourse.

651
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: This was paired with market reforms. I started to bring

652
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: capitalism back to China. This was a shit show in

653
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. If you want to hear about

654
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: the CCP reinventing what's essentially debt peonage about five years

655
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: into this process, go listen to my Behind the Bastard's

656
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: episode about the poisoned milk scandal. But Reform and Opening

657
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: is remembered as a kind of golden age of free expression,

658
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: golden age of hope and possibility, where things really seemed

659
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: like they could be different. This is not entirely accurate.

660
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: Reform and Opening also saw a bunch of absolutely draconian

661
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: crackdowns on the social sphere. There was the One Child Policy,

662
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: a hideous expansion of the states into the sphere of

663
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: social reproduction, replete with forced sterilizations, and the reimposition of

664
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 1: patriarchal power. It saw the tightening of one man rule

665
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: in the factory, the destruction of any form of worker's

666
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: decision making and control over the process of their own labor.

667
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: In these horrors you can see the beginning of the

668
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: fragmentation of Tiannemen and Chinese politics more broadly already forming.

669
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: The students wanted market reform to go faster, They wanted

670
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: more freedom of speech, They sort of wanted democracy, but

671
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: mostly they wanted to be in charge of the party

672
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: so they could crush the bureaucracy that was holding market

673
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: reforms back. It's worth noting, of course, that many of

674
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: these students were involved in what became known as neo authoritarianism,

675
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: which holds that the strong central party should take full

676
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: control of society and destroy factions in the bureaucracy. It

677
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: was an ideology that survived the death of the protests

678
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: and went on to become a major faction of the

679
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: CCP itself in the nineties and two thousands, and this

680
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 1: is where some of the truly weird shit at Tianeman

681
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: comes from. The students were, in many ways an incredibly

682
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: hierarchical movement, which escalated to the point where student leaders

683
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: were kidnapping each other for control over stages and microphones,

684
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: and these protests, in terms of their nominally stated goal

685
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: of influencing the factional fights inside the party, were stunningly ineffectual.

686
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 1: The guy they were trying to defend inside the party

687
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: wound up getting ousted and put under house arrest for

688
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: the rest of his life, and the changes they demanded

689
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 1: failed to occur. But Tianemen, as I mentioned earlier, was

690
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: also the workers, and for most of the protests, the

691
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: students absolutely hated them. Students barred workers from entering the

692
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,919
Speaker 1: square itself until the final hours of the protests, tried

693
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: to stop workers from carrying out a general strike, and

694
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: relations were in general extremely bad. This raises the question

695
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 1: what were the workers doing there in the first place.

696
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: There's a few answers. The simplest and most immediate one

697
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: is that the workers were pissed off at how badly

698
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: the party was treating students in the square. But there

699
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: were other things going on too. The late in eighteen

700
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: eighties in China saw rampant and skyrocketing inflation. The rapid

701
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 1: price increases threatened the supply of cheap grain that composed

702
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: a huge supply of welfare services provided to urban workers. Meanwhile,

703
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: marketization was accelerating, and suddenly you had CCP princelings racing

704
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: down the streets in imported sports cars, driving past workers

705
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: on their bikes, and spending a year's salary gambling at

706
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: the racetrack. And this pissed people off, so they started organizing.

707
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: I'm going to read a section from a piece by

708
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: Uron saying about what the workers were doing during the

709
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: struggle to obstruct the military. Workers started to realize the

710
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,760
Speaker 1: power of their spontaneous organization and action. This was self

711
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 1: liberation on an unprecedented level. A huge wave of self

712
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: organization ensued. The worker's autonomous Federation membership grew exponentially, and

713
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: other workers' organizations both within and across the workplace mushroomed.

714
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: The development of organization led to a radicalization of action.

715
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: Workers started organizing self armed quasi militias such as Quote

716
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: Picket Corps and Quote Dared to Die Brigades to monitor

717
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: and broadcast the military's whereabouts. These quasi militias were also

718
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: responsible for maintaining public order so as not to provide

719
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: any pretext for military intervention. In a sense, Beijing became

720
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: a city self managed by workers. It was reminiscent of

721
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 1: petrograds self armed workers organized in the months between Russia's

722
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: February and October revolutions. At the same time, Beijing workers

723
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: built many more barricades and fortifications on the street. In

724
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: many factories that organized strikes and slowdowns, A possible general

725
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 1: strike was put on the table as well. Many workers

726
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: started to build connections between factories to prepare for a

727
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: general strike. This was unaccepsible to the party, and so

728
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: for the third time in seventy years, the CCP fed

729
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: its own working class to the machine guns. On the

730
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 1: night of June third, the army began to slaughter its

731
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: way to the workers defending the square. It was the

732
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: workers who bore the front of the massacre. Most of

733
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: the casualty and lead of political repression were against members

734
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 1: of the workers faction. The army soon reached the square itself,

735
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: for the Western press Corps bore witness to what became

736
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: known as the Tianeman Square massacre. This is where you

737
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: get tank Man and the most famous accounts of the massacre.

738
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: By that point it was almost all over. The protests

739
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: were crushed and the Chinese working class died with it.

740
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: But before the last bullet had even been fired, every

741
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 1: faction under the sun began to construct their own narratives

742
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: about what had just happened. The most common narrative is

743
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: that Tieneman was a clash between democracy and authoritarianism, and

744
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: to some extent it's not exactly wrong.

745
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 4: There were a.

746
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: Lot of other pro democracy movements in this period. You

747
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: see them in Taiwan and Korea. They swept across huge

748
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: swaths of Latin America and eventually spread to places like

749
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: the Philippines. But the real question of the pro democracy

750
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: movements was what kind of democracy. The students at Tieneman,

751
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: to the extent that their democratic principles were sincere and

752
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 1: not simply cover for a deeply authoritarian version of liberalism

753
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: that demanded rule of law by a new class of

754
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 1: intellectuals to oversee market reforms. Believed in a narrow conception

755
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: of political democracy. This political democracy operates at the level

756
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: of the state. It's based on free citizens equal before

757
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,479
Speaker 1: the law, participating in elections to choose representatives who pass

758
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: laws and generally oversee and manage the state bureaucracy. This

759
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,720
Speaker 1: model of political democracy relegates the workplace to a separate

760
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: economic sphere into which democracy does not extend. The capitalist

761
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: firm or its state owned equivalent remained the absolute dictatorship

762
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: of the capitalists and their managerial flunkies. Even the progressive

763
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: wings of the pro democracy movements in Taiwan and South

764
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: Korea maintained this private dictatorship. Workers would be given rights

765
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 1: under the progressive regimes, permission to form unions, access to

766
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: the welfare state, limited protections from the worst physical and

767
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: psychological abuses their bosses could inflict. But no matter how

768
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: progressive the pro democracy movement, the legitimacy of the dictatorship

769
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: of the bosses was not up for dispute. To them,

770
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: democracy meant a democratic state, not a democratic workplace. The

771
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: workers of Tianmen alone disagreed. They stood against not only

772
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: the rest of the world's pro democracy movements, but the

773
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: tide of history itself. By applying the principles of the

774
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: pro democracy movement to their own concerns skyrocketing inflation, mounting debt,

775
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: rampant corruption by government officials, spiraling inequality, and petty bureaucratic oppression,

776
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: Beijing's working class reinvented an old and now largely forgotten

777
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: traditional democracy in the factory, democratic workers' self management. This is,

778
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: to a large extent, what Tianmen was actually about. It

779
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: was the culmination of a century and a half long

780
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,720
Speaker 1: war between the democratic wing of the classical workers' movement

781
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: and essentially every other ideological movement on Earth. The workers's

782
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: movement would fight capitalists and communists, liberals and fascists, monarchies

783
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: and republics, social democracies and theocracies, and at Tienemen they

784
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: would lose one final time. That defeat is the origin

785
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: of the modern world. One man rule in the factory,

786
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: in its thousand thousand forms is the author of the

787
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 1: hell of the twenty first century. And when we come back,

788
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: we're going to look at the international part of the

789
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: struggle that ended at Tienemen. To fully understand the magnitude

790
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 1: of Tianemen, we need to go back to the revolutions

791
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: of eighteen forty eight. If you want a detailed accounting

792
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: of eighteen forty eight, go listen to the Revolutions podcast.

793
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: It's great. It's also many many, many, many, many many episodes.

794
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: The short version is that there were a bunch of

795
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: revolutions across Europe in a eighteen forty eight, collectively known

796
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 1: as the Springtime of the Peoples. It was the first

797
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: wave of revolutions where socialists were a real political faction.

798
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: Frederick Engels death that angles of Marx and Engels fame

799
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 1: was on the barricades with a rifle fighting in Prussia.

800
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: There was a huge revolution in France where they deposed

801
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: the king, and the question of how far democracy was

802
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: going to go came for the first time to the forefront.

803
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: Inside of the democratic movement itself, you had a split

804
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: between the sort of French radicals who'd done the original

805
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: French Revolution, who wanted electoral democracy but dictatorship in the workplace,

806
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: and the new socialists who wanted to question property relations

807
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: and the question of class itself, and most importantly for

808
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:50,760
Speaker 1: our purposes, whether democracy would extend past the political sphere

809
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 1: and directly into economics. This prefigure is a split inside

810
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: the socialist movement itself. For the most radical factions, control

811
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: over them that means of production meant that workers would

812
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 1: control the production process directly through free associations of workers

813
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: direct democratic unions, a position later known as cynicalism or

814
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: workers councils, but more conservative factions of the socialists became

815
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: enamored with the bureaucratic technologies of the state. They watched

816
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: with envy as the industrializing powers of the eighteen sixties

817
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: and eighteen seventies engaged in increasingly elaborate planning schemes, first

818
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: of roads canals in railroads, then of entire cities with

819
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 1: complex electrical grids, gas lines, and plumbing systems, and began

820
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: to believe that centralized state planning, not the democratic association

821
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: of workers, could bring about the long sought after cooperative

822
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: commonwealth of socialism, and that planning obsessed faction began to

823
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: encompass more and more of the left. In Germany, home

824
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 1: to the powerful German Social Democratic Party, socialists became divided

825
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: between two camps, the Revisionists led by Edward Bernstein, who

826
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: renounced Marxism and revolution entirely in favor of reforming capitalism

827
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: in the state from within, and Karlo Okotski's orthodox Marxists. Basically,

828
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 1: the only two things these factions, who otherwise despise each other,

829
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: agreed on was the primacy of state bureaucratic planning over

830
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: workplace democracy. This led to the Social Democratic Party disastrously

831
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: working to break the workplace autonomy of many of its

832
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 1: own workers, but were still The person who became most

833
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: obsessed with the potential of bureaucratic state planning was one

834
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 1: Vladimir Bilitch Lenin. As the anthropologist David Graeber pointed out,

835
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: Lenin's obsession with the German postal Service was such that

836
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: he included this passage about the future socialist state in

837
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: his famous State and Revolution, a text written between the

838
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: February October revolutions of nineteen seventeen. Quote a witty German

839
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,959
Speaker 1: social democrat of the seventies of the last century called

840
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: the postal service an example of the socialist economic system.

841
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: This is very true. At present. The postal service is

842
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: a business organized on the lines of a state capitalist monopoly.

843
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: Imperialism is gradually transforming all trust into organizations of a

844
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: similar type, to organize the whole national economy on the

845
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 1: lines of the postal service, so that technicians, foreman, bookkeepers,

846
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: as well as all officials to receive salaries no higher

847
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 1: than a workman's wage, all under the leadership and control

848
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: of the armed proletariat. This is our immediate aim. Lenin's

849
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 1: idealized form of socialism would thus take the form of

850
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 1: a total state bureaucracy tasked with planning the entire economy.

851
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: This would set off a massive series of confrontations with

852
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: the part of the workers movement who wanted workers control

853
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: over the means of production to mean workers making decisions

854
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: overworked themselves and not just working for a different set

855
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: of bureaucrats. The struggle bureaucracy and democracy in the workers

856
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 1: movement mirrorred the struggle between the workers movements and the

857
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: capitalist state. By the eighteen eighties, the workers movement had

858
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 1: created variable states within a state in countries like Germany

859
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 1: and Italy. These quote unquote states were vast networks of workers' institutions,

860
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: ranging from as Grape had described, free schools, workers associations,

861
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: friendly societies, libraries and theaters end quote to unions, co ops,

862
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: neighborhood associations, tennis unions, mutual aid societies, and political parties,

863
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: ran democratically by workers themselves, which provided vital services to

864
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: workers and their families, and served so the workers hoped,

865
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: as the basis for a new socialist society. Fearing the

866
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: popularity of these democratic workers institutions, Otto von Bismarck created

867
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: bureaucratic state run versions of the libraries, theaters, and welfare

868
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: services to replace them. Telling an American observer quote, my

869
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: idea was to bribe the working class, or shall I say,

870
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: to win them over, to regard the state as a

871
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: social institution existing for their sake and interested in their welfare.

872
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: And this works. It was enormously successful. Socialists themselves came

873
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: to confuse Bismarck's welfare state bribe with socialism itself, and

874
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: when they took power, they replicated the bureaucratic nature of

875
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: many of Bismarck's programs, eliminating the democratic aspects of the

876
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: older workers' institutions entirely. But where their leaders had forgotten

877
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: the democratic core of the Rowan ideology, workers themselves never did.

878
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: As the nineteenth century drew to a close and the

879
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: twentieth century began, workers who engaged in spontaneous uprisings instinctively

880
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: began to form democratic institutions, particularly workers' councils. The most

881
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: famous of these councils, of course, were formed in the

882
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: spontaneous Russian revolutions of nineteen oh five. In nineteen seventeen,

883
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:02,280
Speaker 1: these councils, called soviets, were originally formed in nineteen oh five,

884
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: out of ad hoc strike committees that became formalized elected

885
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: bodies of representatives in the various factions who worked to

886
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: coordinate the general strike. The revolution of nineteen oh five

887
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 1: was crushed by the Czar, but in nineteen seventeen, the

888
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: Russian working class would once again form workers councils as

889
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: another revolution commenced. This time, the councils would take control

890
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: of production, directly coordinating between various factories and industries, as

891
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: well as serving as a worker's counterpower to the new

892
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: revolutionary government. The Russian Revolution kicked off a period of

893
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: open warfare that stretched from Italy to Argentina between the

894
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: forces of democracy and the factory and the newly formed

895
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 1: anti democratic alliance of social Democrats, Bolsheviks, capitalists. Between nineteen

896
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: seventeen and nineteen twenty, workers councils formed in Germany, Poland, Austria, Ukraine,

897
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,760
Speaker 1: and Ireland and were matched by revolts of syndicalus unions

898
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: in Brazil and Argentina. These uprisings wereal crushed in Italy,

899
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: which saw some of the most intense conflict been synicalists

900
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: and the Italian state. The famous occupation of the factories

901
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: was ended not by the Italian government but by the

902
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: Italian Socialist Party in their union, the General Confederation of Labor. This,

903
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 1: in large part was how fascism won in Italy and

904
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 1: in Germany. Faced with workers movements on the verge of

905
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: seizing power, social democrats turned on the working class slaughtered

906
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: their own comrades, propelling the fascists into power in their wake. Ironically,

907
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 1: the worst defeat of the democratic workers movements will come

908
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 1: not at the hands of the capitalists or social democrats,

909
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: but from Lenin and the Bolsheviks, the very party at

910
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: the workers' councils had put in power. Lenin began to

911
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: undermine the power of the Soviets almost immediately. Published mere

912
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: days after the October Revolution, his draft Decrees on Workers'

913
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: Control stated in no uncertain terms that real power and

914
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 1: authority lay with the new state and the Bolshevik dominated

915
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: trade unions. In the face of massive and unexpected resistance

916
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: from the workers councils, the decree is needed to be

917
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: modified before they could be implemented, but while publicly declaring

918
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 1: his support for the workers councils, the Bolshevik slogan was

919
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 1: after all, all power to the Soviets, Lenin continued to

920
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: trip away at their power until he finally admitted his

921
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: real position of democracy in the Factory in nineteen eighteen

922
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:30,280
Speaker 1: in the Horrifying the immediate tasks of the Soviet government quote,

923
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: unquestioning submission to a single will is absolutely necessary for

924
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 1: the success of labor processes that are based on large

925
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: scale machine industry. Today, the revolution demands, in the interests

926
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: of socialism, that the masses unquestioningly obey the single will

927
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: of the leaders of the labor process. This is obviously

928
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: one of the most disturbing things I've ever read. But

929
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 1: to be clear, while Lenin is more candid about what

930
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: one man rule in the factory actually entails, the system

931
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 1: he's describing isn't actually different from one man rule and

932
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: any other political system. Bolshevik rule in the factory would

933
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:16,320
Speaker 1: be no different than capitalist, social democratic, or even fascist rule.

934
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: The movement for Democracy in the Factory now faced four

935
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: implacable enemies willing to put aside their ideological differences to

936
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 1: ensure that workers would not run their workplaces directly, and

937
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: as the nineteen twenties bled into the nineteen thirties, the

938
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: movement seemed to have all but disappeared in a haale

939
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: of bullets and blood. But they didn't. And next episode,

940
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 1: our heroes, the collective hero, the world's working class, will

941
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: be back. They will do many, many more revolutions, and

942
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about why those revolutions happened, what

943
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 1: the ruling class did to stop them. And then returned

944
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: to the lead up to Tianneman Square to see the

945
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: final stand of the Chinese working class. Welcome to seek

946
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: it happened here. I'm your host, Miya Wong. When we

947
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 1: last left the story of Tieneman One, Vladimir Ilias Lenin

948
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:35,760
Speaker 1: had in theory, crushed the last remnants of the faction

949
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 1: of the workers movement that actually wanted democracy to extend

950
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: into the factories. Unfortunately, for the Leninists, no matter how

951
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 1: many workers they killed, the demand for democracy in the

952
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: factory simply refused to die for over one hundred years.

953
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 1: The development of the mass factory system and the logistical

954
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 1: infrastructure necessary to support it, perhaps most importantly, coal mines

955
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: and the railroads used to transport that coal, generated an

956
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: especially militant working class that saw democratic control over the

957
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: workplace as a fundamental aspect of its liberation. Ideologically. As

958
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 1: the Journal and Notes pointed out, this manifested in a

959
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 1: series of interlocking beliefs about the nature of the working

960
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,880
Speaker 1: class and class society, all of which were necessary for

961
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: the instinctive formation of workers councils to manifest themselves in

962
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 1: moments of revolutionary crisis. In the midst of the rapid

963
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 1: technological expansions of the Second and third Industrial revolutions, workers

964
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 1: came to see themselves as the creators of the new world.

965
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 1: This produced the second belief that drove the classical workers movement.

966
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:50,760
Speaker 1: The producers of this new world should also be its inheritors. Thus,

967
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: the goal of the workers movement was to take control

968
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: of production in itself and manage it for the common

969
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 1: benefit of workers themselves. These two beliefs in and of

970
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 1: themselves were not unique to the democratic wing of the

971
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: workers movement. They broadly comprised the ideology of the movement

972
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 1: as a whole, and by this point the workers movement

973
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: was extremely brought, stretching from social democratic trade unionists the

974
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: intellectual heads of the Leninist vanguard parties. What made the

975
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: democratic wing unique was its concern with the fundamental alienation

976
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: of factory life, with the condition of being reduced to

977
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: an object by bosses who simply used workers as human tools.

978
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: For the Leninists and social democrats, alienation was simply a

979
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: product of ownership or distribution. The liberation of the working

980
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: class would be found in its productive capacity, not in

981
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: its innate humanity and creativity. Before the democratic wing of

982
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: the workers movement, this solved nothing as long as the

983
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 1: fundamental reduction from human to object that characterized one man

984
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: rule in the factory persisted. Changes and owners of structure

985
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: and health benefits missed the entire point that degradation could

986
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: only be solved by returning agency and autonomy to the

987
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: working class, by giving it the class itself control over

988
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: the production process that for so long had controlled them.

989
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty six, Spanish workers decided to take matters

990
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: into their own hands and seized control over their workplace's

991
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: end mass. The Spanish Revolution, as it later became known,

992
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 1: would become the largest and most extensive experiment in democratic

993
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: worker self management before or since. Everything from public utilities

994
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 1: to bakeries, to hospitals to shoe factories fell under the

995
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: control of the direct democratic unions, and once the former

996
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: bosses had been chased from the premises, the workers set

997
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: about transforming the entirety of Spanish society along democratic lines,

998
00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: pulling their resources collectively and allocating them democratically the benefit

999
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 1: of everyone. For a brief moment, the triumphant experiment in

1000
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: democratic self management delivered on its promises. Output increased dramatically,

1001
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: social services were expanded, and the workers of Spain, by

1002
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: their own self organization developed a universal health care system

1003
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: that dramatically expanded service into rural areas where care was

1004
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 1: previously inaccessible. But the revolution had begun amidst a violent

1005
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: civil war in Spain and under the guise of an

1006
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: anti fascist alliance, Liberal socialist and stoutist forces brutally stamped

1007
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 1: out any attempt at democratic self management and returned the

1008
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: factories to their owners, before losing the war to the

1009
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: fascist armies of Francisco Franco. Undeterred by the mounting casualty

1010
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: tolls of promannagerial massacres, revolutionary workers formed workers' councils and

1011
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: mass factory assemblies once again in Hungary in nineteen fifty six,

1012
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: and then again in Italy, France and Czechoslovakia in nineteen

1013
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 1: sixty eight. Hungary, in particular is an interesting revolution because

1014
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 1: over the years it has been subjected to so much

1015
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 1: of the same liberal mythologization you get with Tienemen, but

1016
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 1: this time even worse. The Hungarian Revolution is remembered as

1017
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 1: a liberal democratic revolution. But if you talk to the

1018
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 1: actual people who did the revolution, they were saying things like,

1019
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: and this is a direct quote from a member of

1020
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 1: a Hungarian workers council quote, the time when the boss

1021
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: decided our fate is over. In reality, far from simply

1022
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 1: instituting liberal democratic democracy, Hungarian workers seized control of their

1023
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 1: factories and workplaces, forward workers' councils, and overthrew the government

1024
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: before Russian tanks slaughtered them. This was not a liberal

1025
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 1: democratic revolution at all. Almost identical revolts broke out across

1026
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 1: the capitalist world as well, in Italy, in France and Chile,

1027
01:00:55,040 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 1: communes broke out and colonized Vietnam. They spread everywhere, and

1028
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: to the dismay of capitalists and communists alike. The development

1029
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 1: and implementation of the democratic solution to alienation these revolts

1030
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 1: provided was largely instinctual, and it often emerged in places

1031
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 1: without established workers movements and the political education effects typical

1032
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 1: of such movements. Was the course of the revolution in Algeria.

1033
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: The political education Algerian workers had received was from the

1034
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: nationalist vanguardist National Liberation Front f l N, which had

1035
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 1: prosecuted the war against the French colonizers. The Afalen's ideology

1036
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 1: emphasized the decisive role of the state in national development.

1037
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 1: Upon taking power, however, Ahmed BenBella, Algeria's first president, discovered

1038
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 1: the question of the economic structure of Algeria had already

1039
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 1: been answered for him. Production would be managed by democratic

1040
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 1: workers councils built on the properties seized by Algerian workers

1041
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 1: after the mass exodus of French settlers who fled the

1042
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 1: country following independence, left much of their property uninhabited. Then,

1043
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 1: Bello's administration took a page out of Lenin's book and

1044
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 1: publicly supported the councils while privately undermining them. But the

1045
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 1: whole dispute was made irrelevant by a military coup two

1046
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 1: years later that dismantled the councils completely and reimposed one

1047
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: man rule in the factory. Still, even by the late seventies,

1048
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 1: it was by no means clear that one man rule

1049
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: in the factory would triumph as a political system. Workers

1050
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: and students almost took Italy in nineteen seventy seven, and

1051
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 1: the CNT, the anarchist union that had led so much

1052
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: of the Spanish Revolution, reappeared after the death of Franco.

1053
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: For a brief fleeting moment in the late nineteen seventies,

1054
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 1: it really looked like they were going to do it.

1055
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 1: The persistence of these revolts in the face of pure

1056
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: military repression caused capitalist managery elites to look for ways

1057
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: to dismantle the systemic structures that produced the democratic revolts

1058
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 1: without giving up their power. As author and friend of

1059
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 1: the show, Viciostre Wild points out, the instinctive embrace of

1060
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 1: democracy in the factory was only possible so long as

1061
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 1: the factory remained a point of encounter, a kind of

1062
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 1: dark agra that at once both exploited workers and facilitated

1063
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 1: the interactions allowed them to identify with each other as

1064
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 1: a class and find and produce collective meaning. Thus, the

1065
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 1: fundamental thrust of the attack against democratic self management would

1066
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: take the form of an attack on the shop floor

1067
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 1: as a site of collective identity formation and as a

1068
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: space that could be seen in any way as liberatory.

1069
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 1: This assault took a number of forms, most famously deindustrialization itself,

1070
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 1: as well as the spatial relocation of factories from urban

1071
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 1: centers into the suburbs, where workers could be isolated from

1072
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 1: each other and turned to homeowners bought off with the

1073
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 1: combination of cheap credit and the promise that the new

1074
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 1: homes would also function as assets.

1075
01:03:57,520 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 4: The quote unquote.

1076
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 1: Democratization of finance replaced the democratization of the factory, as

1077
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 1: the capitalist class funneled union pensions into the stock market,

1078
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 1: thus tying remained of organized labor to the fates of

1079
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 1: capitalism itself. Corporations began to turn the workplace into an

1080
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 1: immense propaganda apparatus, replete with mass ideological programming designed to

1081
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 1: promote identification with the corporation itself and not the working

1082
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: class as a whole. Worst of all, the mobility of

1083
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 1: capital and the immobility of workers combined with the new logistics,

1084
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 1: networks and technological advances in containerized shipping to create a

1085
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: world where if workers ever began to get the upper hand,

1086
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 1: capitalists could simply move elsewhere As the total size of

1087
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 1: the industrial working class contracted, capitalists increasingly took that option

1088
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 1: in the left, spitting vast populations out of the traditional

1089
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 1: workforce entirely. These developments would eventually destroy the classical workers movement,

1090
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 1: But in order for the anti democratic counter revolution to succeed,

1091
01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 1: it needed somewhere to move their production to somewhere with

1092
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 1: a large, exploitable labor supply. The capitalist class found that

1093
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: answer in China in the wake of the CCP's victory

1094
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 1: in the Chinese Civil War in nineteen forty nine. The

1095
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 1: Chinese factory system was extremely different from the system that

1096
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 1: existed anywhere else in the world. Chinese state owned firms

1097
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: virtually lacked the ability to fire workers. People's entire social

1098
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:37,680
Speaker 1: sphere was built around their work units, which provided everything

1099
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 1: from their healthcare to their retirement, to their food to

1100
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 1: often their entertainment. The CCP also eliminated the piece rate system,

1101
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 1: a system in which people were paid per unit they produced,

1102
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 1: which is, for example, how the USSR worked. This meant

1103
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 1: that in order to get people to work, bosses had

1104
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 1: very little leverage. They were thus forced to allow a

1105
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 1: degree of participant patient in the labor process and the

1106
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: ability to criticize bosses, because otherwise it was virtually impossible

1107
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 1: to get anyone to do anything. Chinese bosses solved this

1108
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 1: problem through a combination of mass ideological work and a parentalistic,

1109
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:16,439
Speaker 1: semi democratic system for determining the heads of work teams that,

1110
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 1: while raked by the party, ensured that managers would at

1111
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: least be somewhat popular. Till the process was strictly managed,

1112
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 1: workers had the ability to criticize the cadra to govern them,

1113
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 1: and combine the work unit's system of folding home and

1114
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 1: social life into the factory system. The product of this

1115
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 1: system was that because there was already a greater degree

1116
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: of workers' participation in Chinese factories than workers elsewhere, and

1117
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 1: because of some of the structural elements of Maoism, demands

1118
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 1: for democracy became delinked from the workplace, and it meant

1119
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 1: that the system, at least in the cities worked sort

1120
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 1: of okay until the Cultural Revolution. This means that it

1121
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 1: is time for me to do the culture revolution. Rant

1122
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:03,120
Speaker 1: everyone gets the Culture Revolution completely wrong. The initial targets

1123
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 1: of the Cultural Revolution were kids with quote unquote black blood,

1124
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 1: the children of people who had quote bad class backgrounds.

1125
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 1: These people were heavily persecuted. And you can make arguments

1126
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:19,000
Speaker 1: about what you do with, you know, a Shanghai oligarch

1127
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 1: collaborates with the Japanese imperialists. But this extends to the

1128
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: children of people from quote unquote bad class backgrounds, and

1129
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 1: that term is extremely loose. I know people whose families

1130
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 1: were declared of black class background, who had quote unquote

1131
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 1: black blood and weren't allowed to hold government positions because

1132
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 1: her family had made bird feeders before the revolution. It

1133
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 1: was as a system, absolutely nonsense. So what the early

1134
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 1: phases of the Cultural Revolution amounted to was a bunch

1135
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 1: of privileged kids from red class backgrounds in a new

1136
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 1: system attacking a bunch of kids who were being persecuted

1137
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 1: for stuff that was literally not their fault at all.

1138
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 1: They had no way to control who their parents were now.

1139
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 1: The initial stages of the Cultural Revolution were largely driven

1140
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 1: by Mao attempting to play power games inside the party,

1141
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 1: but as things became more and more chaotic and the

1142
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: attacks on CCP, Bear Gratz and Caudra escalated, it spiraled

1143
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:17,679
Speaker 1: nearly out of Mao's control entirely and produced what's called

1144
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 1: the January Storm, where rebel workers seized control of Shanghai

1145
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 1: and drove out the CCP, and this caused what I

1146
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:29,839
Speaker 1: would describe as a oh fuck moment for Mao, because now,

1147
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 1: despite all his rhetoric about bombarding the headquarters, he had

1148
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 1: to actually deal with a workers controlled city. And I

1149
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 1: found this incredible line from Joe and Lai in a

1150
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: meeting with Mao where they were attempting to figure out

1151
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 1: what to do with this new revolutionary Shanghai quote. When

1152
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 1: asked whether the new leadership should be elected from the

1153
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:54,960
Speaker 1: bottom up, Joe and Lai bluntly replied that quote, anarchism

1154
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:57,799
Speaker 1: is bound to develop if we immediately implement direct election

1155
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 1: at the Paris Commune style. And this was obviously a

1156
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,640
Speaker 1: problem for now because there was no way for the

1157
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 1: party to maintain its long term control if you know,

1158
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:13,000
Speaker 1: you actually implemented the direct elections in the style of

1159
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 1: the Paris Commium. And so instead we saw a full

1160
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:22,040
Speaker 1: on counter revolution. By about nineteen sixty eight, rebel workers

1161
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:25,640
Speaker 1: and students were getting slaughtered everywhere. The initial uprisings, the

1162
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 1: stuff that everyone remembers with the dunce caps and the placards,

1163
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 1: was staggeringly by far the least violent part of the

1164
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:37,160
Speaker 1: cultural revolution. Here's from Walder, an academic who spent a

1165
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 1: significant amount of time studying the actual death records city

1166
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 1: by city and province by province in the Chinese Archives quote,

1167
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:47,719
Speaker 1: more than three fourths of all documented deaths in local

1168
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:50,160
Speaker 1: annals are due to the actions of authorities in this

1169
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:54,240
Speaker 1: third phase, in more than ninety percent of those persecuted

1170
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:58,559
Speaker 1: for alleged political crimes. This third phase nineteen sixty eight

1171
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 1: onward is to the people, and the culture revolution gets killed.

1172
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 1: And this is the opposite of the way that the

1173
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:09,680
Speaker 1: Culture Revolution is understood. Most of the killing wasn't the

1174
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:12,800
Speaker 1: product of student radicalism gone out of control. It was

1175
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 1: the state slaughtering its way through various rebel factions that

1176
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:20,080
Speaker 1: did most of the killing and the political persecution. And

1177
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 1: this has enormous effects on subsequent Chinese history. It creates

1178
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 1: a ruling class that's incredibly paranoid about anything that even

1179
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:30,679
Speaker 1: smells like organizing happening outside the party, and the most

1180
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 1: radical students and workers were simply butchered by the state.

1181
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,360
Speaker 1: And by the late nineteen seventies, radical politics in China

1182
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:40,719
Speaker 1: that could have produced anything even remotely like democratic control

1183
01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:43,639
Speaker 1: of the workplace had collapsed almost entirely in the face

1184
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:47,639
Speaker 1: of state repression. In their wake, politics moved towards more

1185
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:51,639
Speaker 1: intellectual driven liberal democratic politics that broadly ignored the working

1186
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 1: class entirely, as danzhel ping unleashed the horrific one child

1187
01:10:56,080 --> 01:11:00,599
Speaker 1: policy and in draconian an ultimately successful attempt to established

1188
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:03,960
Speaker 1: the state's patriarchal control over the household and stripped hundreds

1189
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:06,360
Speaker 1: of millions of women of even the limited autonomy they

1190
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:09,759
Speaker 1: had clawed out of the Cultural Revolution. But the beginning

1191
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 1: of marketization, the gradual dismantling of the socialist welfare state,

1192
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:16,439
Speaker 1: and a wave of inflation produced a series of economic

1193
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: changes that turned Chinese society into a powder keg. By

1194
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, the classical workers' movement globally was on

1195
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:37,559
Speaker 1: its last legs. Unable to spark its own uprisings, it

1196
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 1: latched onto a series of other social and political movements,

1197
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 1: most notably pro democracy movement in China. But democratic self

1198
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:47,400
Speaker 1: management and its critique of one man rule in the

1199
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:51,519
Speaker 1: factory was utterly alien to the pro democracy movement, which

1200
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:54,760
Speaker 1: meant that its development by the workers of Ganemen was

1201
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 1: a spontaneous product of the application of the principles of

1202
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: democracy to their own situation. This led to formulations that

1203
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,400
Speaker 1: would have been unfamiliar to previous incarnations to the workers' movement.

1204
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 1: One worker interviewed by Walder said this about democracy in

1205
01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:11,519
Speaker 1: the factory. Why do a lot of workers agree with

1206
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 1: democracy and freedom in the workshop? Does what the workers

1207
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:18,400
Speaker 1: say count or what the leader says. We later talked

1208
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:21,520
Speaker 1: about it. In the factory, the director is a dictator.

1209
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:25,000
Speaker 1: What one man says goes. If you view the state

1210
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 1: through the factory, it's about the same one man rule.

1211
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 1: Our objective was not very high. We just wanted workers

1212
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:35,640
Speaker 1: to have their own independent organization in work units. It's

1213
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:39,439
Speaker 1: personal rule. For example, if I want to change jobs,

1214
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 1: the bus company foreman won't let me go. I ought

1215
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:43,880
Speaker 1: to go home at five, but he tells me to

1216
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 1: work overtime for two hours, and if I don't, he'll

1217
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:50,360
Speaker 1: cut my bonuses. This is personal rule. A factory should

1218
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:52,759
Speaker 1: have a system. If a worker wants to change jobs,

1219
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:54,720
Speaker 1: they ought to have a system of rules decided how

1220
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,519
Speaker 1: to do it. Also, these rules should be decided upon

1221
01:12:57,560 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 1: by everyone, and then afterwards anyone who violent and we

1222
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:04,200
Speaker 1: punished according to the rules. This is rule by law. Now,

1223
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:06,520
Speaker 1: we don't have this kind of legal system.

1224
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 4: Now.

1225
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:11,200
Speaker 1: This is obviously an extremely conservative framing of the classical

1226
01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:14,120
Speaker 1: critique of one man rule in the factory couched in

1227
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: the dominant political rhetoric of the rule of law. But

1228
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:20,840
Speaker 1: any attempt to actually implement this system, that which workers

1229
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 1: controlled the factories they work in, how long they work,

1230
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:26,760
Speaker 1: and what the bonus rate was democratically to an independent organization,

1231
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:30,759
Speaker 1: could only end in democratic, self managed workplaces. As Walder

1232
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 1: and jang If pointed out, the workers at the Beijing

1233
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 1: Workers Autonomous Federation were uniformly uneducated. It had little or

1234
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:40,879
Speaker 1: no connection to any of the various liberal intellectual circles.

1235
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:43,960
Speaker 1: This was as pure a workers we've met as any

1236
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:47,880
Speaker 1: in Chinese history, and for one final time, the instinct

1237
01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:50,839
Speaker 1: of that working class was to demand democracy in the factory.

1238
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:56,720
Speaker 1: This demand, above all others, was politically unacceptable. When the

1239
01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:00,000
Speaker 1: army marched on Beijing, it was the Chinese working class

1240
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 1: wiped out. Even the memory of the demand for democracy

1241
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:05,680
Speaker 1: in the factory would be scrubbed from the records that

1242
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 1: the CCP and the pro democracy movements alike, thus ensuring

1243
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 1: the meaning of the events would be lost. What then

1244
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:18,479
Speaker 1: was Tianemen In some sense, it was a transition point

1245
01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:22,080
Speaker 1: between two different Chinese working classes. The protests were the

1246
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:25,360
Speaker 1: high water mark of the political mobilization of the old

1247
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 1: industrial working class, who, in the streets surrounding Tienemen mounted

1248
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:33,360
Speaker 1: the final attack of the classical workers movement. Their defeat

1249
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:36,200
Speaker 1: ended the old working class as a political force, and

1250
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 1: they were annihilated altogether in the economic restructure of the

1251
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, which crushed the last vestides of workers' autonomy

1252
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:46,000
Speaker 1: in the factory and destroyed what remained of the Chinese

1253
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:49,879
Speaker 1: welfare state. They were replaced by a new working class

1254
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:53,240
Speaker 1: drawn from the rural and semi urban under classes of

1255
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:56,799
Speaker 1: the old socialist system, who were dragged into the cities

1256
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:58,679
Speaker 1: to fill the ranks of the two hundred and seventy

1257
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:02,400
Speaker 1: seven million migrant works that today comprise the background of

1258
01:15:02,479 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 1: China's working class. This new working class, with rural household

1259
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:11,520
Speaker 1: registration in no way into the remaining state owned factories,

1260
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:14,520
Speaker 1: would have none of the benefits of the previous one.

1261
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:17,840
Speaker 1: It would instead face a full raft of capitalist ideology

1262
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 1: baked into every aspect of workplace culture, and a massive

1263
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 1: attempt to encourage home ownership. While the previous working class

1264
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:28,639
Speaker 1: could at least pausit a democratic form of the factory

1265
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:32,040
Speaker 1: to which life could be improved. This new working class's

1266
01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:34,960
Speaker 1: greatest desire was to leave the factory entirely and become

1267
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:38,720
Speaker 1: a business owner. In this sense, it considers itself to

1268
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:44,160
Speaker 1: be a temporarily embarrassed petie bourgeoisie. Such ideological selfconceptions are

1269
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: inimical to the formation of the classical workers movement, and

1270
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 1: indeed the new Chinese working class has largely failed to

1271
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:54,240
Speaker 1: find the collective identity in the workplace. The situation is

1272
01:15:54,320 --> 01:15:57,920
Speaker 1: not unique. The death of the classical workers movement has

1273
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:02,040
Speaker 1: seen the collapse of their demands democratic self management everywhere

1274
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:05,559
Speaker 1: in the face of a working class it refuses to

1275
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:10,120
Speaker 1: cohere itself in the factory. China was just late to

1276
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 1: the game. The fact remains, however, that the global economic

1277
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:18,080
Speaker 1: system has lurned from crisis to crisis for the better

1278
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:21,800
Speaker 1: part of my lifetime, setting off in its wake an

1279
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 1: increasing number of revolutions, even as the darker gore of

1280
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:28,120
Speaker 1: the factory ceased to function as a place to form

1281
01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:32,920
Speaker 1: identities for this new working class. If a collective identity

1282
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 1: couldnot be forged in the factory, it would be foraged

1283
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:39,160
Speaker 1: in the street instead, lacking a positive identity to cohere

1284
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 1: itself around workers were only able to mobilize on a

1285
01:16:43,320 --> 01:16:46,879
Speaker 1: mass basis in direct opposition to a force that threatens

1286
01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:50,400
Speaker 1: it on a cross sectoral basis. The state, with its

1287
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 1: ability to increase the price of basic commodities and slash

1288
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:57,120
Speaker 1: welfare benefits, became the only available enemy, and the constant

1289
01:16:57,120 --> 01:16:59,439
Speaker 1: fights against the police became the sole basis for new

1290
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 1: collective identity formation. Contemporary revolts have thus taken the form

1291
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 1: of mass street movements in almost continuous confrontations with the states.

1292
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:12,720
Speaker 1: Factory occupations were replaced with square occupations, and as the

1293
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 1: squares were revealed to be indefensible, they too were replaced

1294
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:20,160
Speaker 1: by running fights with the police. But this placed the

1295
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:24,000
Speaker 1: new revolutionaries in a dangerous bind without the leverage against

1296
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:26,719
Speaker 1: the state the classical workers movement's control over the workplace,

1297
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:30,200
Speaker 1: provided they lack the ability to bring down a government

1298
01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:33,840
Speaker 1: firmly committed to fighting it out. Even the attempts over

1299
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:36,840
Speaker 1: the last five or six years to carry out general

1300
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:40,839
Speaker 1: strikes in Peru, in France, Hong Kong and Sudan were

1301
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:44,439
Speaker 1: as Mela Testa predicted in the early twenties, easily defeated

1302
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:48,759
Speaker 1: without the accompanying factory occupations, but with current labor conditions

1303
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 1: exceedingly unlikely to produce another wave of factory occupations. The

1304
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:55,640
Speaker 1: way forward for any political movement that seeks to reintroduce

1305
01:17:55,680 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 1: democracy into the economic sphere is unclear. Perhaps that is

1306
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:04,679
Speaker 1: the greatest legacy of tienemen The workers who assembled outside

1307
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:08,160
Speaker 1: Tieneman Square had already abandoned their factories. For all that

1308
01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:11,400
Speaker 1: they spoke the language of the old workers movement, they

1309
01:18:11,439 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 1: stood and fought and died like we do in the streets.

1310
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:18,599
Speaker 1: They were the bridge between the world of the workers

1311
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:21,599
Speaker 1: movements and the world we live in today, and thus

1312
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:25,879
Speaker 1: faced the same revolutionary crisis we face today, the crisis

1313
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 1: of Papua and Palestine, of Columbia and Iran, of Mien

1314
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:34,440
Speaker 1: Maar in Hong Kong, of victory just beyond the horizon

1315
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:39,920
Speaker 1: that nevertheless cannot yet be grasped. The workers of tienemen I, suspect,

1316
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:43,639
Speaker 1: have no answers to give us now, But expecting answers

1317
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:46,439
Speaker 1: from the dead is demanding too much of those past

1318
01:18:46,479 --> 01:18:50,680
Speaker 1: and present who died fighting for liberation. All we can

1319
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:53,840
Speaker 1: do now is find our own way, and, with the

1320
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:56,759
Speaker 1: names of the dead on our lips, build the world

1321
01:18:57,280 --> 01:18:58,200
Speaker 1: they died fighting for.

1322
01:19:21,479 --> 01:19:25,280
Speaker 2: Welcome to it could happen here the only podcast where

1323
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:28,160
Speaker 2: anti British discrimination is a way of life?

1324
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:29,519
Speaker 4: James, are we.

1325
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:31,800
Speaker 2: Allowed to say that? Do you remember the training? I

1326
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:33,960
Speaker 2: haven't done yet.

1327
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 4: I was giving that training my full attention throughout the

1328
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:39,360
Speaker 4: duration of the video. Every single time I've watched It's

1329
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:42,240
Speaker 4: good various employees for the last half decade or so,

1330
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:45,520
Speaker 4: there was no there was no section on anti British discrimination.

1331
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:51,280
Speaker 4: Yet again, another example victimized.

1332
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:53,599
Speaker 1: Last time I took that training, there was a straight

1333
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:55,920
Speaker 1: up anti Asian racism in it that they didn't address

1334
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:57,960
Speaker 1: at all. So I'm assuming if that's okay, then anti

1335
01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:01,600
Speaker 1: British racism was fine, like some shit in those videos.

1336
01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:04,720
Speaker 4: Which is wild. Okay, there you go. I think that's

1337
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:06,800
Speaker 4: a lady who's literally called Karen and they do her

1338
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:10,880
Speaker 4: wrong in the in the in the video. See I am.

1339
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:14,479
Speaker 3: I am definitely pro British discrimination. But you do get

1340
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:18,840
Speaker 3: a point for having Peter O'Toole, so at least it's

1341
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:21,799
Speaker 3: it's it's not all the way because the o'tool factor

1342
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:25,920
Speaker 3: keeps you from the full might of my wrath frankly

1343
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:27,240
Speaker 3: the greatest.

1344
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:29,080
Speaker 4: There we go. Yeah, I'm sure that's the case.

1345
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:31,920
Speaker 3: I'm Garson Davis and joined by Mia Wong, James Stub

1346
01:20:32,040 --> 01:20:35,680
Speaker 3: and Robert Evans. This episode we are talking about babies.

1347
01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 3: Should there be more?

1348
01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 4: Yeah? Hm, we're on a pro natalist kick.

1349
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:42,960
Speaker 2: We're going to have that off putting couple who look

1350
01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:47,280
Speaker 2: like vampires but like not any of the good kinds

1351
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 2: on the show.

1352
01:20:48,640 --> 01:20:51,559
Speaker 4: Very excited to have those people on. They seem nice.

1353
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:54,560
Speaker 2: But before we do that, we all decided maybe we

1354
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:58,559
Speaker 2: should talk about other pro natalist policies in world history

1355
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:00,559
Speaker 2: and how well they've worked generally.

1356
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:05,360
Speaker 3: We're going to start by talking about what the US

1357
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:09,799
Speaker 3: policy might be, or that the people proposing US policy,

1358
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:15,679
Speaker 3: and then we will discuss how those policies went historically. Yeah,

1359
01:21:16,280 --> 01:21:20,599
Speaker 3: so like to start with Trumps. Besides one executive order

1360
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:24,600
Speaker 3: in February supporting IVF, the new administration has yet to

1361
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:29,280
Speaker 3: tackle pro natalist concerns on the policy front, but a

1362
01:21:29,320 --> 01:21:32,760
Speaker 3: collection of lobbyists, activists, and influencers are vying for the

1363
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:36,040
Speaker 3: president's ear while proposing a multitude of plans to grow

1364
01:21:36,080 --> 01:21:41,520
Speaker 3: the number of heterosexual marriages and incentivize childbirth. The pronatalists

1365
01:21:41,600 --> 01:21:44,519
Speaker 3: certainly think that the new administration is at the very

1366
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:48,959
Speaker 3: least ideologically sympathetic, if not in cahoots with their agenda.

1367
01:21:49,520 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 3: The main inns on the pronatalist front have come from

1368
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 3: the Peter Thiel tech right wing of the White House Right.

1369
01:21:56,439 --> 01:22:00,400
Speaker 3: This is like JD. Vance and previously Elon Musk yep.

1370
01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 3: Musk has been doom posting for years about how a

1371
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,000
Speaker 3: drop in fertility rates could be leading to a large

1372
01:22:06,040 --> 01:22:09,800
Speaker 3: scale population collapse, and at an anti abortion rally this

1373
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:13,200
Speaker 3: past January, Vance addressed the crowd saying quote, I want

1374
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:16,080
Speaker 3: more babies in the United States of America. I want

1375
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:19,400
Speaker 3: more happy children in our country, and I want beautiful

1376
01:22:19,479 --> 01:22:21,519
Speaker 3: young men and women who are eager to welcome them

1377
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:24,000
Speaker 3: into the world and eager to raise them.

1378
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:26,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you got to like whatever you're listening to

1379
01:22:26,120 --> 01:22:28,120
Speaker 1: one of these things. You got to like have a

1380
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:31,960
Speaker 1: little parenthesis anytime anytime someone says baby, there's a little

1381
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:36,840
Speaker 1: parentheses there that says white this is this is real

1382
01:22:36,920 --> 01:22:37,519
Speaker 1: Nazi shit.

1383
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:40,360
Speaker 3: Like a lot of the stuff that is certainly like

1384
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 3: based on like like great replacement rhetoric that the alt right,

1385
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:48,040
Speaker 3: like Trojan Horst and like pushed forward in like twenty eighteen,

1386
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:52,639
Speaker 3: which is now so widely normalized thanks to. I mean, really,

1387
01:22:52,720 --> 01:22:55,920
Speaker 3: Musk has done a lot of work in normalizing great

1388
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:56,679
Speaker 3: replacement stuff.

1389
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:00,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, Tucker calls into Carlson of course, well, and mus

1390
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:03,400
Speaker 6: Musk's family goes into this, right, like this is the

1391
01:23:03,479 --> 01:23:06,360
Speaker 6: kind of thing like his grandparents where were involved in,

1392
01:23:06,479 --> 01:23:08,240
Speaker 6: Like it was a little bit less of like the

1393
01:23:08,320 --> 01:23:12,360
Speaker 6: standard great replacement shit and a little more like focused

1394
01:23:12,400 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 6: on like we need to be breeding high IQ white

1395
01:23:14,439 --> 01:23:15,120
Speaker 6: people together.

1396
01:23:15,240 --> 01:23:17,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, you change, but like that that is that is

1397
01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:19,720
Speaker 2: what he inherits. He comes by it, honestly, I guess

1398
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:20,760
Speaker 2: you could say.

1399
01:23:21,040 --> 01:23:24,040
Speaker 3: Well, and oftentimes pinatal stretoric is also tied in with

1400
01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:28,040
Speaker 3: like the tradwife and like loss of traditional family structure

1401
01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:28,639
Speaker 3: type stuff.

1402
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:28,880
Speaker 7: Right.

1403
01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:32,360
Speaker 3: Vance has laid blame at childless cat ladies and referred

1404
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:36,160
Speaker 3: to our quote unquote broken culture that tax masculinity and

1405
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:38,759
Speaker 3: turns our nation's youth into androgynous idiots.

1406
01:23:38,800 --> 01:23:40,759
Speaker 4: Hey shout out. Yeah.

1407
01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:43,839
Speaker 2: I've also started referring to women with kids as catless

1408
01:23:43,920 --> 01:23:45,680
Speaker 2: child ladies as a result.

1409
01:23:45,360 --> 01:23:45,559
Speaker 3: Of this.

1410
01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:51,520
Speaker 4: Reactions, I don't know people very negatively.

1411
01:23:57,360 --> 01:23:59,759
Speaker 3: A declining birth rate has also been attributed to women

1412
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:02,880
Speaker 3: in the workplace who are not getting married and raising

1413
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:03,960
Speaker 3: kids at home.

1414
01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:05,639
Speaker 4: From an early enough age.

1415
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:08,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and some of this writer are cavs rubbed off

1416
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:10,840
Speaker 3: on Trump right, and Trump at Seapack in twenty twenty three,

1417
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:13,600
Speaker 3: he said, quote, we will support baby booms, and we

1418
01:24:13,640 --> 01:24:16,719
Speaker 3: will support baby bonuses for a new baby boom.

1419
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:19,200
Speaker 4: I want a baby boom. Cool.

1420
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:23,559
Speaker 3: Trump has floated a five thousand dollars cash quote unquote

1421
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:27,320
Speaker 3: baby bonus to American mothers after delivering a baby, calling

1422
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:29,080
Speaker 3: this proposal a good idea.

1423
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:32,120
Speaker 2: Well, Garrison, that's almost three months at a preschool.

1424
01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:33,240
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I'm sure that's enough.

1425
01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:35,280
Speaker 2: Not quite three months at a lot of pre schools, like,

1426
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:38,920
Speaker 2: not even great pre schools. It's very preschools unbelievably expensive.

1427
01:24:39,360 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 3: The actual cause, like of a declining birth rate, is

1428
01:24:42,560 --> 01:24:45,439
Speaker 3: due to skyrocketing cost of living, so people aren't financially

1429
01:24:45,439 --> 01:24:47,880
Speaker 3: stable to have kids in their early twenties anymore, so

1430
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:49,519
Speaker 3: instead they're waiting until their thirties.

1431
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 4: That's part of it at least.

1432
01:24:51,000 --> 01:24:53,400
Speaker 3: Yes, if you want people to have kids more, you

1433
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:56,360
Speaker 3: should make the world more affordable. And a five thousand

1434
01:24:56,360 --> 01:24:58,479
Speaker 3: dollars baby bonus doesn't actually solve the key issues that

1435
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:01,120
Speaker 3: would cause people to be a worried about, you know,

1436
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:02,800
Speaker 3: trying to like get buried and have kids at a

1437
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:05,000
Speaker 3: young age in a world where that seems kind of

1438
01:25:05,040 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 3: like unfathomably expensive. Now, luckily, Trump does have a few

1439
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:13,880
Speaker 3: other ways of sorting of sorting out this problem. The

1440
01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:17,639
Speaker 3: new big, beautiful budget bill that recently passed the House

1441
01:25:17,960 --> 01:25:22,080
Speaker 3: will create quote unquote Mega savings accounts for new kids.

1442
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:27,120
Speaker 3: And here Mega stands for money accounts for growth and

1443
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:30,320
Speaker 3: in for growth and advancement.

1444
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:33,680
Speaker 4: Just fucking stop stop it.

1445
01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:37,439
Speaker 3: So when parents are guardians open a new Mega savings

1446
01:25:37,479 --> 01:25:40,360
Speaker 3: account for their kids, the federal government will contribute one

1447
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:44,719
Speaker 3: thousand dollars for babies born between January first, twenty twenty

1448
01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:47,920
Speaker 3: four and December thirty first, twenty twenty eight.

1449
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:53,760
Speaker 4: That that'll help, great, great. I believe California also does it. Yeah,

1450
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:57,880
Speaker 4: California have something called the California Child Saving Accounts Program,

1451
01:25:57,960 --> 01:26:01,519
Speaker 4: which already gives children up to one thousand dollars. And

1452
01:26:01,520 --> 01:26:03,559
Speaker 4: I think it's like a college savings account from what

1453
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:06,040
Speaker 4: I understand, Yeah, that's pretty much what this is.

1454
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:09,200
Speaker 3: Although specifically in the for the Magia account, it also

1455
01:26:09,280 --> 01:26:11,559
Speaker 3: lists home ownership. Oh cool, because this is like a

1456
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:14,519
Speaker 3: big this is a big part of this pronatalist thing

1457
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:17,679
Speaker 3: is you need to own a home, getting a straight marriage,

1458
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:19,519
Speaker 3: start having kids in your early twenty.

1459
01:26:19,439 --> 01:26:22,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, make Instagram videos of yourself chopping would badly

1460
01:26:22,680 --> 01:26:24,959
Speaker 4: like we understand. Yeah. Yeah.

1461
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:27,920
Speaker 3: The big beautiful bludget bill also prohibits Medicare funds. We're

1462
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:28,719
Speaker 3: going to plan parent.

1463
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:31,759
Speaker 4: Hut great yeah, let me tell you. One thousand American dollars,

1464
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 4: even with compounding interest, isn't going to do shit to

1465
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:38,040
Speaker 4: buy you a home anywhere in the United States.

1466
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:42,479
Speaker 3: Now, the Heritage Foundation's Devasit Center for Life, Religion, and

1467
01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:46,920
Speaker 3: Family have pushed for a policy that exponentially increases the

1468
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:51,000
Speaker 3: child tax credit for each additional child a married couple has.

1469
01:26:51,880 --> 01:26:54,000
Speaker 3: This is a little bit similar to a policy proposed

1470
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three by Republican Representative Brian Slayton of Texas,

1471
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:03,280
Speaker 3: who proposed increasing proper tax cuts for married heterosexual couples

1472
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:06,160
Speaker 3: who have never been divorced and have four or more

1473
01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:08,560
Speaker 3: children starting after marriage.

1474
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:11,080
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of caveats.

1475
01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:15,479
Speaker 2: There, Jesus Christy, Yeah, okay, sure, yeah, no, this is

1476
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:16,840
Speaker 2: are we taking issue with this?

1477
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:20,040
Speaker 4: That is some Yeah, this is part of my British

1478
01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:23,479
Speaker 4: charity trade. We developed our own religion so that dudes

1479
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:26,400
Speaker 4: could get divorced. It is it is. Yeah, it is

1480
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:27,920
Speaker 4: a bill of rights for British guys.

1481
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:30,320
Speaker 3: Obviously a lot of a lot of caveats in there

1482
01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:33,719
Speaker 3: so that you can have your little like tread Christian family.

1483
01:27:34,200 --> 01:27:36,920
Speaker 3: But four kids would equal a forty percent cut. Ten

1484
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:39,800
Speaker 3: kids would equal no property taxes at all.

1485
01:27:40,200 --> 01:27:42,559
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, shit, that's hard to argue with.

1486
01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:45,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is property tax. You also have to own

1487
01:27:45,400 --> 01:27:47,639
Speaker 4: the property to begin with to be paying property tax.

1488
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:49,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, all of these all these people want you to

1489
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:51,840
Speaker 3: be like homeowners with a stay at home life.

1490
01:27:52,200 --> 01:27:54,000
Speaker 4: Is like, this is what they want, but they don't

1491
01:27:54,000 --> 01:27:57,280
Speaker 4: want to actually do things to meaningfully make home ownership successible.

1492
01:27:57,360 --> 01:27:59,599
Speaker 3: No, this is just like self selecting for like well

1493
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 3: off white Christians, right.

1494
01:28:01,120 --> 01:28:02,240
Speaker 4: Like yeah, yeah, hundred percent.

1495
01:28:02,439 --> 01:28:05,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, Slaton said in a statement quote, with this bill,

1496
01:28:05,720 --> 01:28:09,080
Speaker 3: Texas will start saying to couples, get married, stay married,

1497
01:28:09,479 --> 01:28:12,600
Speaker 3: and be fruitful and multiply unquote.

1498
01:28:12,439 --> 01:28:14,599
Speaker 4: For fuck's sake, it's a disaster.

1499
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:16,320
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean and like a lot of this

1500
01:28:16,320 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 1: stuff is too is it's there. This is their sort

1501
01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:21,920
Speaker 1: of flailing reaction to like one of the things that

1502
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:25,040
Speaker 1: actually drives like declining birthrates, which is not having teen

1503
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:30,120
Speaker 1: pregnancies like significantly decreases birthrates because it turns out they're like, oh, yeah, right.

1504
01:28:30,120 --> 01:28:32,880
Speaker 1: It turns out a huge part of like white birthrate

1505
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:37,040
Speaker 1: is so high is just direct social coercion. And if

1506
01:28:37,080 --> 01:28:40,040
Speaker 1: you stop having that or like you know, the amount

1507
01:28:40,080 --> 01:28:43,880
Speaker 1: of the coercion decreases, then yeah, like fucking birthrates are

1508
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:46,439
Speaker 1: gonna to decline because women aren't being forced to have babies

1509
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:48,840
Speaker 1: like and you know, and so they're trying to do

1510
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:51,800
Speaker 1: all this like you know, unhinged tinkering bullshit to sort

1511
01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:55,120
Speaker 1: of like deal with the fact that if you don't

1512
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:59,200
Speaker 1: force people to have children as teenagers, they.

1513
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:03,920
Speaker 2: Who yeah, because life they quickly realized there's things in life,

1514
01:29:04,040 --> 01:29:07,240
Speaker 2: like you know, drugs and stuff.

1515
01:29:09,720 --> 01:29:11,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll go back to the club.

1516
01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:16,759
Speaker 3: In March, Trump called himself the quote unquote fertilization President.

1517
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:23,760
Speaker 3: Oh my god, and the White House is expected to

1518
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:26,080
Speaker 3: soon release a report on how to expand access and

1519
01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:29,559
Speaker 3: affordability of IVF. Now this is where things get sticky

1520
01:29:31,000 --> 01:29:34,800
Speaker 3: insert pun. There is hot debate amongst advisors and think

1521
01:29:34,840 --> 01:29:37,639
Speaker 3: tanks on the religious ethics of IVF.

1522
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 4: Right, there's no real.

1523
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:42,639
Speaker 3: Consensus among the pronatals voices who are lobbying Trump. Yeah,

1524
01:29:42,960 --> 01:29:45,040
Speaker 3: this sort of breaks down into like the new tech

1525
01:29:45,120 --> 01:29:49,560
Speaker 3: right versus the more religious Christian family sector of conservatism,

1526
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:51,680
Speaker 3: and Vance is kind of caught in the middle of this,

1527
01:29:52,240 --> 01:29:57,240
Speaker 3: but these groups may end up compromising to form an alliance. Now, Heritage,

1528
01:29:57,320 --> 01:30:01,200
Speaker 3: the Heritage Fundation recommends a program use government funds for

1529
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:05,479
Speaker 3: education that promotes quote unquote natural fertility, teaching women how

1530
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:08,800
Speaker 3: to track their mental cycles using charting courses to both

1531
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:13,400
Speaker 3: help get pregnant and avoid using birth control. They propose

1532
01:30:13,479 --> 01:30:17,719
Speaker 3: that food, nutrition, and lifestyle changes could improve quote unquote

1533
01:30:17,840 --> 01:30:23,160
Speaker 3: natural conception. Instead of using assisted reproductive technologies, Heritage proposed

1534
01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:26,559
Speaker 3: to something that they call restorative reproductive medicine as a

1535
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:31,280
Speaker 3: holistic approach to treating infertility through quote unquote horn balancing,

1536
01:30:31,479 --> 01:30:36,720
Speaker 3: dieting and nutritional adjustments, environmental changes, and surgery unquote.

1537
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:40,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just need some fucking uh some of those

1538
01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 2: some of those baby teething pills Highlands made that kill babies.

1539
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:46,200
Speaker 2: That's what you get to take. It's a holistic approach

1540
01:30:46,240 --> 01:30:48,120
Speaker 2: to you get some raw milk, put a bunch of

1541
01:30:48,200 --> 01:30:51,320
Speaker 2: random chemicals and lead in your body from an unregulated

1542
01:30:51,360 --> 01:30:52,280
Speaker 2: supplement company.

1543
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:56,480
Speaker 3: Heritage itself critiques IVF as failing to address the underlying

1544
01:30:56,479 --> 01:30:59,640
Speaker 3: causes of infertility as well as you know, out of

1545
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:04,280
Speaker 3: concern for embryo personhood rights for fuck sake, So they

1546
01:31:04,320 --> 01:31:08,439
Speaker 3: advocate for embryo adoption and have proposed legislation to make

1547
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:10,840
Speaker 3: the production of embryo spares.

1548
01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:12,400
Speaker 1: Illegal embryo adoption.

1549
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:15,839
Speaker 4: They believe that these are like full like people.

1550
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:21,439
Speaker 3: Now on the other side of the you know, pro natalist, right,

1551
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:24,559
Speaker 3: you have people like the vampire couple that Robert mentioned.

1552
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:30,280
Speaker 3: Simone Collins, a pro natalist activist and failed Pennsylvania congressional candidate.

1553
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:32,800
Speaker 2: She could still pull it off. Stay in line if

1554
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:33,920
Speaker 2: your vote hasn't been counted.

1555
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:37,280
Speaker 3: People her and her husband are self described quote unquote

1556
01:31:37,439 --> 01:31:40,040
Speaker 3: techno Puritans, and she.

1557
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:42,559
Speaker 4: Is the talking super shit.

1558
01:31:44,000 --> 01:31:45,000
Speaker 1: Like what.

1559
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:50,200
Speaker 4: God put these people on a boat and send it

1560
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 4: across the Atlantic, Like, can they get scurvy? Have they

1561
01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:54,200
Speaker 4: already got? They look a little bit like they may

1562
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:56,400
Speaker 4: already have scurvy. To be fair, they do look like

1563
01:31:56,439 --> 01:31:59,280
Speaker 4: they have scurvy. Constantly they deprive them of lime juice

1564
01:31:59,320 --> 01:32:01,080
Speaker 4: and save the world from a fucking ground.

1565
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:03,599
Speaker 2: Put him on the next starship and see how far

1566
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:06,040
Speaker 2: up it gets.

1567
01:32:07,479 --> 01:32:10,559
Speaker 4: No, they won't get that. Let him try. I support

1568
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:11,400
Speaker 4: the human spirit.

1569
01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:14,960
Speaker 3: Collins is also the former managing director of an exclusive

1570
01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:19,840
Speaker 3: Peter Teele found in social club called a Dialogue Cool Now.

1571
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:23,640
Speaker 3: She has called the new administration quote unquote inherently pronatalist,

1572
01:32:23,760 --> 01:32:27,280
Speaker 3: and has sent several draft pronadalist executive orders to the

1573
01:32:27,280 --> 01:32:30,080
Speaker 3: White House, one of which would award a quote unquote

1574
01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:34,719
Speaker 3: National Medal of Motherhood to mothers with six or more children.

1575
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:37,240
Speaker 4: This is some trijescu shit, Like, I know we're going

1576
01:32:37,280 --> 01:32:39,440
Speaker 4: to talk about that, but Jesus Christ.

1577
01:32:39,200 --> 01:32:43,880
Speaker 3: She herself wants at least seven kids. And she claims

1578
01:32:43,920 --> 01:32:48,720
Speaker 3: to use special technology to select embryos with high IQs,

1579
01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:53,000
Speaker 3: which relates back to what Robert was saying earlier. Yes,

1580
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:57,400
Speaker 3: so they use IVF to specifically select embryos that they

1581
01:32:57,439 --> 01:33:01,679
Speaker 3: think are like naturally predisposed have more desirable traits, including

1582
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:04,960
Speaker 3: high IQs. They have not discussed the exact method, That's

1583
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:06,800
Speaker 3: why it's called special technology.

1584
01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:09,240
Speaker 4: They're looking for one with a big head or something,

1585
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:11,479
Speaker 4: So you don't know. I guess I'm not even that

1586
01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:13,040
Speaker 4: far along the IVF.

1587
01:33:13,320 --> 01:33:15,599
Speaker 3: So that's always pretty fucked up and then I guess finally,

1588
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:18,320
Speaker 3: one of the few things that actually has happened in

1589
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:23,080
Speaker 3: advancement of this ideology was way back like in February,

1590
01:33:23,560 --> 01:33:26,920
Speaker 3: Trump's Transportation secretary, Sean Duffy, who is a father of

1591
01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:30,200
Speaker 3: nine and has ten siblings, sent out a memo directing

1592
01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:34,320
Speaker 3: his staff to prioritize transportation funds to quote give preference

1593
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:37,000
Speaker 3: to communities with marriage and birth rates higher than the

1594
01:33:37,080 --> 01:33:40,519
Speaker 3: national average unquote, which would, in ef fact, mean less

1595
01:33:40,520 --> 01:33:43,639
Speaker 3: money for urban public transit and instead send it towards

1596
01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:45,920
Speaker 3: like wealthier, rural, white conservative areas.

1597
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:50,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd imagine Latino communities have a higher marriage traits

1598
01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:54,680
Speaker 4: at least than like the national average. Yeah, I'm not

1599
01:33:54,680 --> 01:33:55,000
Speaker 4: sure if.

1600
01:33:54,920 --> 01:33:57,519
Speaker 1: Sean Duffy really wants his employees to select for that.

1601
01:33:57,479 --> 01:33:59,960
Speaker 4: Though, No, neither of I that's kind That's what I'm meant,

1602
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:02,639
Speaker 4: That's what I'm That's what I'm wondering for. Yeah, Samuel

1603
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:05,120
Speaker 4: Huntington thinks they have higher birth rates, right, Like that's

1604
01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:05,759
Speaker 4: his whole stick.

1605
01:34:06,080 --> 01:34:08,280
Speaker 3: If you look at the full memo, I think this

1606
01:34:08,360 --> 01:34:10,080
Speaker 3: is this is just like a dog whistle for like

1607
01:34:10,080 --> 01:34:13,360
Speaker 3: white Christians, like that is that is really what he's

1608
01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:14,599
Speaker 3: saying sick.

1609
01:34:15,720 --> 01:34:18,920
Speaker 4: Anyway, that is what I have for the current the

1610
01:34:18,960 --> 01:34:20,040
Speaker 4: current peroneals policies.

1611
01:34:20,040 --> 01:34:22,360
Speaker 3: We should go on and ad break and then return

1612
01:34:22,479 --> 01:34:26,640
Speaker 3: to learn the historical implications of pro natalist policies.

1613
01:34:26,920 --> 01:34:27,360
Speaker 4: M hmm.

1614
01:34:37,920 --> 01:34:41,120
Speaker 7: All right, we are back and we are spinning our globe,

1615
01:34:41,680 --> 01:34:45,799
Speaker 7: our big ball of pro natalism, and it is slowing

1616
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:49,840
Speaker 7: down and is landed on Japan, where mir is going

1617
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:51,920
Speaker 7: to explain pronatalist policy.

1618
01:34:53,280 --> 01:34:54,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I guess.

1619
01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:56,760
Speaker 1: I want to open on a kind of global thing

1620
01:34:56,800 --> 01:34:59,720
Speaker 1: which is a concern over like birth rates, for like

1621
01:34:59,760 --> 01:35:01,840
Speaker 1: fat just is a really old thing. I mean, it

1622
01:35:01,880 --> 01:35:04,400
Speaker 1: predates fascism. Like this is like like if you go

1623
01:35:04,439 --> 01:35:07,519
Speaker 1: to like the eighteen seventies, every single person is complaining

1624
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:09,720
Speaker 1: about like, oh my god, the birth rate is the right. Well,

1625
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:11,680
Speaker 1: the white race keeps declining and we're gonna get like

1626
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:14,960
Speaker 1: overwhelmed by the Asiatic Chords. And then you go to

1627
01:35:15,040 --> 01:35:18,840
Speaker 1: like the Asiatic Chords and it's like Japan has been

1628
01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:22,960
Speaker 1: having the same fucking panic for literally so long. Like

1629
01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:26,599
Speaker 1: I cannot emphasize enough. You can just go back through

1630
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:29,760
Speaker 1: newspaper archives and you just it's you're literally reading the

1631
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:31,920
Speaker 1: same article over and over and over again, going back

1632
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:34,320
Speaker 1: just decades and decades and decades, So like the first

1633
01:35:34,360 --> 01:35:37,599
Speaker 1: big modern freak out about birth rates is in like

1634
01:35:37,720 --> 01:35:42,280
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven. Yeah, they have the first big like

1635
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:43,840
Speaker 1: japan birth rate.

1636
01:35:43,720 --> 01:35:44,760
Speaker 4: Declining freak out.

1637
01:35:45,000 --> 01:35:47,240
Speaker 1: This has been happening longer than like most of the

1638
01:35:47,240 --> 01:35:48,400
Speaker 1: people here have been alive.

1639
01:35:48,600 --> 01:35:51,479
Speaker 4: I can remember from like my child. It's just been like, oh,

1640
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:54,000
Speaker 4: they're panicking about their birthrates again.

1641
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:57,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, So like the running thing with Japanese politics. So

1642
01:35:57,080 --> 01:36:00,759
Speaker 1: we're roughly doing these in order of life like most

1643
01:36:00,840 --> 01:36:04,720
Speaker 1: to least hinged in terms of like in terms of

1644
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:08,200
Speaker 1: these like natalist policies, Japan I think has an interesting

1645
01:36:08,240 --> 01:36:11,040
Speaker 1: series of sort of political contradictions in their like kind

1646
01:36:11,040 --> 01:36:14,160
Speaker 1: of pro natalist Paul Walls if they have, they have

1647
01:36:14,200 --> 01:36:17,520
Speaker 1: political contradictions in their pro natalist politics and political contradictions

1648
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:21,600
Speaker 1: in their conservative faction. Because Japan is basically like a

1649
01:36:21,640 --> 01:36:25,320
Speaker 1: one party liberal democratic state. Liberal Democratic Party is the

1650
01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:28,280
Speaker 1: one party. This is a party established by a World

1651
01:36:28,280 --> 01:36:31,080
Speaker 1: War two Nazi, but that means that they run all

1652
01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:34,000
Speaker 1: of politics, so like every political factor effectively runs through them.

1653
01:36:34,200 --> 01:36:38,599
Speaker 1: They're early attempts in like the nineties are focused on

1654
01:36:38,680 --> 01:36:42,559
Speaker 1: the deregulation of daycare jobs. So basically their plan is

1655
01:36:42,600 --> 01:36:44,280
Speaker 1: like in the ninety two thousands, they're like, Okay, we're

1656
01:36:44,320 --> 01:36:47,479
Speaker 1: going to like deregulate the childcare industry so that we

1657
01:36:47,560 --> 01:36:50,960
Speaker 1: can have more affordable child There'll be more childcare jobs

1658
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:53,519
Speaker 1: so people can pay for childcare. This is how we're

1659
01:36:53,520 --> 01:36:55,800
Speaker 1: going to promote this. And this is sort of one

1660
01:36:55,800 --> 01:36:58,640
Speaker 1: of the first places you see this huge intra intraclass

1661
01:36:58,680 --> 01:37:01,640
Speaker 1: conflict between the peer social conservatives who want to just

1662
01:37:01,680 --> 01:37:04,440
Speaker 1: like send every woman back to the household to raise children,

1663
01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:07,240
Speaker 1: and the business people who are like, no, you can't

1664
01:37:07,320 --> 01:37:09,960
Speaker 1: do that. We need to exploit these women's labor to

1665
01:37:10,040 --> 01:37:14,320
Speaker 1: like make money. And so the fight that starts to

1666
01:37:14,360 --> 01:37:17,200
Speaker 1: break out is this fight between like paying for childcare

1667
01:37:17,280 --> 01:37:21,280
Speaker 1: leave versus like paying for daycare. So originally that their

1668
01:37:21,320 --> 01:37:22,600
Speaker 1: plan is like, okay, so we're going to do the

1669
01:37:22,640 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 1: daycare stuff.

1670
01:37:23,240 --> 01:37:23,760
Speaker 4: That doesn't work.

1671
01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:25,679
Speaker 1: Like, none of these things they're going to do does

1672
01:37:25,800 --> 01:37:26,799
Speaker 1: jack shit, right.

1673
01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:30,160
Speaker 4: Like that's going to be a through line here. Yeah, yeah,

1674
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:31,280
Speaker 4: Like no, none of that stuff works.

1675
01:37:31,360 --> 01:37:32,920
Speaker 1: And so like like shinzo Abe, I think is the

1676
01:37:32,920 --> 01:37:34,760
Speaker 1: most famous person who spends much of time trying to

1677
01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:37,559
Speaker 1: deal with this and like again. So they have started

1678
01:37:37,560 --> 01:37:39,840
Speaker 1: worrying about this in nineteen eighty seven. It is now

1679
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:45,960
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. The birth rate keeps declining recipitously. Shinzawabey rest

1680
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:48,400
Speaker 1: and piss you fascist bastard is still trying to like

1681
01:37:49,000 --> 01:37:52,160
Speaker 1: cook something. Right, I'm gonna read this quote from the

1682
01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:56,759
Speaker 1: Archives of Clinical Pediatrics shortly after the formation of Abbe's

1683
01:37:56,760 --> 01:38:00,240
Speaker 1: second cabinet, the quote. Task Force for Overcoming Popular Relation

1684
01:38:00,360 --> 01:38:04,040
Speaker 1: Decline was established in twenty thirteen, introducing three key strategies,

1685
01:38:04,360 --> 01:38:08,400
Speaker 1: supporting child rearing, reforming work styles, and promoting marriage, pregnancy

1686
01:38:08,439 --> 01:38:11,240
Speaker 1: and childbirth. So you can do these are going to

1687
01:38:11,240 --> 01:38:14,439
Speaker 1: become sort of like the three pillars of Japanese pro

1688
01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:17,760
Speaker 1: natalist policy, right. A lot of it is focused on

1689
01:38:18,360 --> 01:38:21,519
Speaker 1: this sort of social push stuff to like promote the

1690
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:26,120
Speaker 1: traditional family and promote marriage, and this hasn't ever really

1691
01:38:26,439 --> 01:38:31,439
Speaker 1: worked for this. Supporting child rearing is one that is

1692
01:38:31,479 --> 01:38:34,080
Speaker 1: going to get a lot of attention in subsequent administrations.

1693
01:38:34,080 --> 01:38:36,320
Speaker 1: There's a lot of attempts to reduce, like to reduce

1694
01:38:36,320 --> 01:38:39,240
Speaker 1: the cost of child rearing, where we're going to see

1695
01:38:39,240 --> 01:38:43,800
Speaker 1: them try like thirty five thousand different proposals to do this,

1696
01:38:44,720 --> 01:38:50,680
Speaker 1: the one that's actually interesting is reforming work styles. So, like,

1697
01:38:50,720 --> 01:38:54,280
Speaker 1: part of the problem here is that, you know, everyone

1698
01:38:54,400 --> 01:38:59,320
Speaker 1: in Japan is working a just genuinely unhinged amount unbelievably

1699
01:38:59,360 --> 01:39:01,479
Speaker 1: staggering over work, right. I mean, it's one of these

1700
01:39:01,479 --> 01:39:03,519
Speaker 1: things that's like a persistent social crisis. It's that there's

1701
01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:07,000
Speaker 1: a persistent sort of suicide crisis because of how long

1702
01:39:07,080 --> 01:39:10,280
Speaker 1: everyone is working all the time. So Shinto Abbe's plan

1703
01:39:10,439 --> 01:39:13,320
Speaker 1: for this was to put into place a soft cap

1704
01:39:13,800 --> 01:39:16,679
Speaker 1: of you can only work one hundred hours a month

1705
01:39:16,680 --> 01:39:20,920
Speaker 1: of overtime. Now, this doesn't do shit, right, Like one

1706
01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:24,840
Speaker 1: hundred hours a month of overtime is enough to kill you, right, like,

1707
01:39:25,240 --> 01:39:27,479
Speaker 1: you know, especially when like your regular hours are this long.

1708
01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:30,679
Speaker 1: But this is again this problem that he's having, which

1709
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 1: is that like, okay, so yes, you probably could maybe

1710
01:39:35,439 --> 01:39:38,200
Speaker 1: like people maybe would have more children if you weren't

1711
01:39:38,280 --> 01:39:40,799
Speaker 1: working literally all the time and you weren't just like being.

1712
01:39:40,680 --> 01:39:41,400
Speaker 4: Worked to death.

1713
01:39:42,240 --> 01:39:45,559
Speaker 1: But that's really bad for Japanese business. And like quote

1714
01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:47,640
Speaker 1: unquote Abbey NoMix, which is like Abe sort of you

1715
01:39:47,640 --> 01:39:51,200
Speaker 1: know economic plan like relies on maintaining this extremely high

1716
01:39:51,240 --> 01:39:54,280
Speaker 1: level of labor hours from everyone in the entire population.

1717
01:39:54,880 --> 01:39:57,360
Speaker 1: And it's also based on putting more women into the

1718
01:39:57,360 --> 01:40:00,160
Speaker 1: workforce to expand the size of the workforce, to know,

1719
01:40:00,200 --> 01:40:02,280
Speaker 1: extract more hours so they can all these people can

1720
01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:05,840
Speaker 1: make more money. Right. They were also supposed to do

1721
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:09,479
Speaker 1: free preschool for all children, and this just like didn't happen,

1722
01:40:09,760 --> 01:40:11,519
Speaker 1: which over and over again they're like, we're gonna do

1723
01:40:11,640 --> 01:40:14,799
Speaker 1: these kind of like these these kind of like okay,

1724
01:40:14,840 --> 01:40:17,360
Speaker 1: we'll give we'll give you some kind of welfare state bullshit,

1725
01:40:17,439 --> 01:40:19,920
Speaker 1: but only in order to like have kids, and it

1726
01:40:20,000 --> 01:40:23,360
Speaker 1: just doesn't happen. And so you know, this is one

1727
01:40:23,400 --> 01:40:25,600
Speaker 1: of Abe's big initiatives. But by the time he's like

1728
01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:29,320
Speaker 1: assassinated in twenty twenty two, he what he was uh

1729
01:40:29,960 --> 01:40:33,920
Speaker 1: bye by time his political coalition was finally detonated, bye

1730
01:40:34,160 --> 01:40:37,400
Speaker 1: by one by one guy with an electric plunderbus.

1731
01:40:39,280 --> 01:40:40,880
Speaker 2: My favorite politics.

1732
01:40:43,400 --> 01:40:46,120
Speaker 1: Oh god, it's so good. It's so good. We have

1733
01:40:46,160 --> 01:40:47,880
Speaker 1: covered this extensively on the show. If you want to

1734
01:40:47,920 --> 01:40:51,280
Speaker 1: hear the happiest I've ever been during an episode, including

1735
01:40:51,320 --> 01:40:54,080
Speaker 1: the day after Kissinger died, go find the episode I

1736
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:55,400
Speaker 1: did right after shinz a wha.

1737
01:40:55,520 --> 01:40:56,280
Speaker 4: It was assassinated.

1738
01:40:56,520 --> 01:40:59,160
Speaker 2: The Holy Trinity of Great days on the internet. Is

1739
01:40:59,240 --> 01:41:02,200
Speaker 2: that big stuck boat and the submarine that killed all

1740
01:41:02,240 --> 01:41:02,679
Speaker 2: those bills?

1741
01:41:02,840 --> 01:41:06,920
Speaker 4: Yes, oh it was amazing. Yeah, people said Biden gave

1742
01:41:07,000 --> 01:41:13,519
Speaker 4: us nothing. Bang is on the timeline. Mm hmmm, here

1743
01:41:13,600 --> 01:41:13,840
Speaker 4: you go.

1744
01:41:14,720 --> 01:41:18,759
Speaker 1: So all right, shinzowape successor is a guy named Fumio

1745
01:41:18,880 --> 01:41:24,360
Speaker 1: Kishita who lasts for a little bit, and Kishida every

1746
01:41:24,400 --> 01:41:27,400
Speaker 1: single Japanese government announces that they're going to spend like

1747
01:41:27,960 --> 01:41:31,760
Speaker 1: somewhere between twenty and fifteen and twenty billion dollars on

1748
01:41:32,200 --> 01:41:36,840
Speaker 1: pronatalist policies and mostly doesn't happen, but Kishita promises that

1749
01:41:36,880 --> 01:41:38,760
Speaker 1: he is going to spend twenty four and a half

1750
01:41:38,880 --> 01:41:42,160
Speaker 1: billion dollars. A lot of this money is going to

1751
01:41:42,200 --> 01:41:46,439
Speaker 1: be just straight up like child allowance. So Japan has

1752
01:41:46,439 --> 01:41:47,880
Speaker 1: the system that they've been you know, they've been sort

1753
01:41:47,880 --> 01:41:49,519
Speaker 1: of implementing over the course of like all of these

1754
01:41:49,520 --> 01:41:51,640
Speaker 1: fucking reforms, which is just like all right, we're just

1755
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:55,719
Speaker 1: gonna like hand you cash. It's still not enough money

1756
01:41:55,760 --> 01:41:58,280
Speaker 1: to like substantively change stuff. But there's a lot of

1757
01:41:58,280 --> 01:42:02,000
Speaker 1: different kinds of cash policies. They have cash transfer policies

1758
01:42:02,040 --> 01:42:04,120
Speaker 1: that are just straight up like okay, here, you had

1759
01:42:04,160 --> 01:42:06,320
Speaker 1: a baby we're gonna give you this amount per month.

1760
01:42:06,320 --> 01:42:09,439
Speaker 1: I think it's like ten to fifteen thousand yen which

1761
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:12,599
Speaker 1: hold on, yeah, so it's like like seventy dollars a month,

1762
01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:18,920
Speaker 1: which is like not. Yeah, they are trying to expense

1763
01:42:18,960 --> 01:42:21,040
Speaker 1: date research on. They're supposed to have these like counselors

1764
01:42:21,040 --> 01:42:23,679
Speaker 1: that like come check in on you and like give

1765
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:25,960
Speaker 1: you education and stuff. They're also supposed to just like

1766
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:29,840
Speaker 1: give you a whole bunch of basically like childcare equipment

1767
01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:33,240
Speaker 1: stuff and make sure you're getting medical care. And that's

1768
01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:35,640
Speaker 1: supposed to come out to about like seven hundred dollars

1769
01:42:35,760 --> 01:42:40,080
Speaker 1: ish roughly. You know, this is like the big sort

1770
01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:42,639
Speaker 1: of plan that they're doing. And then in twenty twenty four,

1771
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:46,400
Speaker 1: Kishita is replaced by like some other dipshit who you know,

1772
01:42:46,439 --> 01:42:48,240
Speaker 1: if he lasts more than like two years, I guess

1773
01:42:48,240 --> 01:42:52,320
Speaker 1: I'll tell you his name. But he's you know, attempting

1774
01:42:52,360 --> 01:42:56,599
Speaker 1: to go back to the sort of childcare side of it, right,

1775
01:42:56,680 --> 01:42:59,040
Speaker 1: which is his plan involves a bunch of things like

1776
01:42:59,120 --> 01:43:04,000
Speaker 1: childcare subsidy and very importantly like tuition free high school.

1777
01:43:04,560 --> 01:43:07,040
Speaker 1: So one of the continuous plans, if you like, if

1778
01:43:07,040 --> 01:43:09,280
Speaker 1: you go back to like what I was talking about

1779
01:43:09,280 --> 01:43:11,680
Speaker 1: with they were supposed to do free preschool for all children, right,

1780
01:43:12,640 --> 01:43:17,360
Speaker 1: that never got implemented except in like the last two years,

1781
01:43:17,360 --> 01:43:20,000
Speaker 1: like Tokyo has started doing it, just like as a city,

1782
01:43:21,280 --> 01:43:23,040
Speaker 1: because Tokyo is one of the places where, like you know,

1783
01:43:23,240 --> 01:43:25,839
Speaker 1: the birth rate has been like dropping the fastest or whatever.

1784
01:43:26,240 --> 01:43:29,160
Speaker 4: Sure, I imagine custter living is also really high.

1785
01:43:29,880 --> 01:43:31,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, cost of living is really high. And it's also

1786
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:34,240
Speaker 1: just like you know, if you're working in an urban

1787
01:43:34,640 --> 01:43:39,679
Speaker 1: like an extremely urban city, you're working a just hideous

1788
01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:40,519
Speaker 1: number of hours.

1789
01:43:40,800 --> 01:43:41,000
Speaker 4: Right.

1790
01:43:41,240 --> 01:43:44,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's also this these supposed to be these massive

1791
01:43:44,400 --> 01:43:48,519
Speaker 1: like investments in providing childcare and nursing, and you can

1792
01:43:48,640 --> 01:43:52,760
Speaker 1: see these kind of like this this this point where

1793
01:43:52,760 --> 01:43:55,160
Speaker 1: they've reached this desperation point where they're trying both the

1794
01:43:55,200 --> 01:43:58,160
Speaker 1: sort of pro business like okay, fuck, it will pay

1795
01:43:58,160 --> 01:44:00,839
Speaker 1: for your child care and also we will raise taxes

1796
01:44:00,880 --> 01:44:03,880
Speaker 1: to like hand you money and also nursing stuff. And

1797
01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:07,080
Speaker 1: also they're trying to there's like giant carve outs for this,

1798
01:44:07,120 --> 01:44:08,599
Speaker 1: but they're they're they're trying to set up a system

1799
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:10,759
Speaker 1: where you can get full pay for couples who both

1800
01:44:10,840 --> 01:44:14,880
Speaker 1: take parental leave at the same time. So they're trying everything, right,

1801
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:17,800
Speaker 1: They're trying like paid childcare. They're trying, fuck it, we'll

1802
01:44:17,800 --> 01:44:19,920
Speaker 1: just pay people to leave the workforce to have children.

1803
01:44:20,840 --> 01:44:24,479
Speaker 1: They're trying just straight up cash transfers. They're trying paying

1804
01:44:24,520 --> 01:44:28,880
Speaker 1: for medical care, especially medical care for disabled kids. And

1805
01:44:29,200 --> 01:44:32,679
Speaker 1: none of this shit has done anything at all, right,

1806
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:36,360
Speaker 1: like just just absolutely jack shit, right, and and and

1807
01:44:36,360 --> 01:44:37,640
Speaker 1: if you want to look at like, okay, so, like

1808
01:44:37,680 --> 01:44:39,960
Speaker 1: what what's sort of actually happening here?

1809
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:40,960
Speaker 4: Right?

1810
01:44:41,040 --> 01:44:42,840
Speaker 1: A lot some of it is just like over work.

1811
01:44:43,200 --> 01:44:45,439
Speaker 1: Some of it is just if people who can have

1812
01:44:45,520 --> 01:44:50,160
Speaker 1: children have any kind of freedom and autonomy, they just

1813
01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:52,960
Speaker 1: decide not to. And so part of this is also

1814
01:44:53,080 --> 01:44:54,600
Speaker 1: just like and then this has been one of the

1815
01:44:54,640 --> 01:44:57,680
Speaker 1: social pushes that the conservatives have been dealing with, is

1816
01:44:58,680 --> 01:45:02,360
Speaker 1: they've been trying to get people to marry younger, because

1817
01:45:02,360 --> 01:45:06,040
Speaker 1: people are marrying later, and thus they are like, you know,

1818
01:45:06,080 --> 01:45:09,880
Speaker 1: they're having kids later because they're marrying later. So and

1819
01:45:10,240 --> 01:45:15,040
Speaker 1: this is not working at all, right, But you can

1820
01:45:15,080 --> 01:45:17,439
Speaker 1: look at the series of structural contradictions in their political collision,

1821
01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:18,880
Speaker 1: and then you can look at the fact that like, again,

1822
01:45:19,400 --> 01:45:21,160
Speaker 1: one of the important ideological things here is that these

1823
01:45:21,200 --> 01:45:23,880
Speaker 1: people hate immigrants, right, and they don't.

1824
01:45:23,920 --> 01:45:24,839
Speaker 4: They don't want immigrants.

1825
01:45:24,880 --> 01:45:29,439
Speaker 1: They want they want like Japanese babies, and so this

1826
01:45:29,600 --> 01:45:31,040
Speaker 1: is kind of like if you look at like, Okay,

1827
01:45:31,040 --> 01:45:32,280
Speaker 1: why is not of this shit working?

1828
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:33,160
Speaker 4: Right?

1829
01:45:33,439 --> 01:45:36,800
Speaker 1: They're trying all these things to just avoid having more

1830
01:45:36,880 --> 01:45:39,200
Speaker 1: immigrants in the country, and none of it is fucking

1831
01:45:39,200 --> 01:45:43,879
Speaker 1: working at all. But you know, like, insofar as it's failing,

1832
01:45:44,000 --> 01:45:47,320
Speaker 1: it's mostly they're trying some limited welfare stuff and they're

1833
01:45:47,320 --> 01:45:49,160
Speaker 1: doing a bunch of weird ideological stuff, and it is

1834
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:51,160
Speaker 1: going to get so much worse when every other country

1835
01:45:51,200 --> 01:45:51,519
Speaker 1: tries this.

1836
01:45:52,520 --> 01:45:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah cool, Well you know what else is gonna get

1837
01:45:56,240 --> 01:45:57,040
Speaker 2: worse totally.

1838
01:45:57,080 --> 01:45:58,800
Speaker 4: The Products and Service says, it's simple of this show.

1839
01:45:59,160 --> 01:46:11,439
Speaker 8: Yeah yeah, all right, we're back.

1840
01:46:11,720 --> 01:46:16,120
Speaker 4: It's me And predictably, I suppose I am talking about

1841
01:46:16,120 --> 01:46:20,639
Speaker 4: Franco as Spain, so Franti's got Franco attempted to rebuild

1842
01:46:20,640 --> 01:46:25,040
Speaker 4: Spain after Civil War, both through explicit eugenics and through

1843
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:30,679
Speaker 4: the nationalization of women's bodies, abortion and contraceptual bands. Abortion

1844
01:46:30,800 --> 01:46:33,120
Speaker 4: had been legal, Spain was one of the first countries

1845
01:46:33,160 --> 01:46:36,519
Speaker 4: to do that. Right when federally gon Monceni, anarchist minister

1846
01:46:36,880 --> 01:46:39,599
Speaker 4: made that legal minister of I guess public health that

1847
01:46:39,640 --> 01:46:41,360
Speaker 4: was made illegal. I think it didn't become legally again

1848
01:46:41,439 --> 01:46:44,599
Speaker 4: until about twenty ten. In Spain, abortion and and less

1849
01:46:44,600 --> 01:46:47,280
Speaker 4: it was like a serious health issue, elective abortion. I guess.

1850
01:46:47,560 --> 01:46:51,639
Speaker 4: Franco's military in the Civil War consistently used sexual violence

1851
01:46:51,680 --> 01:46:53,680
Speaker 4: as or weapon, and we can see this as a

1852
01:46:53,760 --> 01:47:00,000
Speaker 4: kind of prelude to his nationalization of birthing bodies. Right, yeah,

1853
01:47:00,439 --> 01:47:04,040
Speaker 4: who is a Francoist general? Right makes a speech in

1854
01:47:04,120 --> 01:47:08,160
Speaker 4: July nineteen thirty six, quote, Our valiant legionnaires and regulades

1855
01:47:08,280 --> 01:47:10,760
Speaker 4: have shown the red cowards what true men are. And

1856
01:47:10,760 --> 01:47:13,800
Speaker 4: they're women as well. This is totally justified because these

1857
01:47:13,800 --> 01:47:17,240
Speaker 4: communists and anarchists anarkate free love. At least now they

1858
01:47:17,280 --> 01:47:20,000
Speaker 4: will know what real men are, not the militia gaze.

1859
01:47:20,280 --> 01:47:22,639
Speaker 4: This is a translation that I'm reading to so people

1860
01:47:22,880 --> 01:47:26,479
Speaker 4: can go to the original document. But gays is not

1861
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:29,040
Speaker 4: the word he used. A better translation would be a

1862
01:47:29,080 --> 01:47:33,400
Speaker 4: word that begins with f Yeah. Okay, yeah. They will

1863
01:47:33,439 --> 01:47:35,759
Speaker 4: not escape, however much. They kick their legs and scream

1864
01:47:36,439 --> 01:47:38,919
Speaker 4: like this is a general in their army making explicit

1865
01:47:39,040 --> 01:47:42,360
Speaker 4: rape threats. Right, They weren't subtle about this. Yes, the

1866
01:47:42,360 --> 01:47:46,160
Speaker 4: Spanish Falange, which is Spain's fascist party, also had a

1867
01:47:46,160 --> 01:47:51,280
Speaker 4: Cecion Feminina, a women's section. My PhD supervisor Pamela Radcliff

1868
01:47:51,320 --> 01:47:54,679
Speaker 4: is written extensively about this. The group very much served

1869
01:47:54,680 --> 01:47:57,920
Speaker 4: as kind of the Propaganderama state natalist policy. It taught

1870
01:47:57,960 --> 01:48:00,320
Speaker 4: women from a young age they were inferior and you

1871
01:48:00,320 --> 01:48:03,200
Speaker 4: get to men. They had to go through the organization's programs.

1872
01:48:03,240 --> 01:48:06,000
Speaker 4: To do anything, any engagement with the state, they had

1873
01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:09,160
Speaker 4: to first go through the women's section. Right. If they

1874
01:48:09,160 --> 01:48:10,720
Speaker 4: wanted to get a passport, they wanted to get a

1875
01:48:10,840 --> 01:48:14,200
Speaker 4: driving license, if they wanted to engage with the world

1876
01:48:14,280 --> 01:48:16,880
Speaker 4: outside of their homes in any way, they had to

1877
01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:20,479
Speaker 4: go through this program, which indoctrinated them that their highest

1878
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:25,000
Speaker 4: calling and only value was to have children. Women's role

1879
01:48:25,280 --> 01:48:28,519
Speaker 4: in the Francoist project then, was child bearing a child

1880
01:48:28,520 --> 01:48:31,680
Speaker 4: rearing Francoist I'm going to use intellectuals here in like

1881
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:36,200
Speaker 4: quotation scare quotes, right, frequently turned to phrenology to justify

1882
01:48:36,280 --> 01:48:41,519
Speaker 4: women's domestic role. They fucking loved a phrenology. Right. It's

1883
01:48:41,520 --> 01:48:44,080
Speaker 4: great to go to antiques markets in Spain because you

1884
01:48:44,080 --> 01:48:48,599
Speaker 4: could always buy like a phrenology head. You can acquire

1885
01:48:48,680 --> 01:48:52,040
Speaker 4: like an og one, you know, like better if you

1886
01:48:52,040 --> 01:48:54,120
Speaker 4: know the replace to let you could find some find

1887
01:48:54,120 --> 01:48:55,519
Speaker 4: the calipers. That's the dream.

1888
01:48:55,720 --> 01:48:59,400
Speaker 3: There is actually a lot of those secondhand stores in Portland.

1889
01:49:00,520 --> 01:49:07,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, shocking hand sclasping me with francoism, and I found

1890
01:49:07,240 --> 01:49:08,960
Speaker 2: a lot of uses for those calibers.

1891
01:49:09,160 --> 01:49:11,320
Speaker 4: Let me tell you, no, I mean the phrenology skulls.

1892
01:49:11,479 --> 01:49:14,639
Speaker 4: Oh okay, yeah, yeah, I've seen them all over down Yeah.

1893
01:49:14,680 --> 01:49:16,400
Speaker 4: But I bet you, I bet you are replicas. I

1894
01:49:16,400 --> 01:49:18,880
Speaker 4: bet they're not like o G phrenology skulls.

1895
01:49:19,240 --> 01:49:21,000
Speaker 2: There's a market in France im to that just had

1896
01:49:21,000 --> 01:49:25,080
Speaker 2: a bunch of monks skulls, like real real, it seems fine.

1897
01:49:25,600 --> 01:49:27,320
Speaker 2: There was one that had been turned into a holder

1898
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:29,479
Speaker 2: for a bible, like they'd cut like an L shaped

1899
01:49:29,520 --> 01:49:31,240
Speaker 2: cut in the skull of pretty cool. It was like

1900
01:49:31,240 --> 01:49:33,759
Speaker 2: three grand you make a courtesy for the Qoran. But

1901
01:49:33,760 --> 01:49:36,519
Speaker 2: but like this was a while ago, but seemed like

1902
01:49:36,520 --> 01:49:37,080
Speaker 2: a good prod.

1903
01:49:37,600 --> 01:49:41,320
Speaker 3: Just skull Talk, your favorite podcast discussing craniums.

1904
01:49:41,760 --> 01:49:45,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, using the discount code, it could happen here. You

1905
01:49:45,439 --> 01:49:49,160
Speaker 4: can get ten percent off the skull Bible holder, Yeah,

1906
01:49:49,240 --> 01:49:52,679
Speaker 4: that's right, Okay. So one of the things they did

1907
01:49:53,000 --> 01:49:56,639
Speaker 4: was to increasingly marginalized midwives and instead like have male

1908
01:49:56,920 --> 01:50:01,080
Speaker 4: doctors taking control of the child birthing pros because midwives

1909
01:50:01,080 --> 01:50:03,519
Speaker 4: would advocate for their patients too much and they didn't

1910
01:50:03,520 --> 01:50:05,880
Speaker 4: feel that women belonged to work outside the home. Right.

1911
01:50:06,400 --> 01:50:10,160
Speaker 4: A big part of Franco's pro natalism was the repudiation

1912
01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:13,200
Speaker 4: of an Arco feminism that had been relatively important to

1913
01:50:13,280 --> 01:50:18,639
Speaker 4: the Spanish Revolution. Right, the anarchists believed in revolutionary marriage

1914
01:50:18,640 --> 01:50:23,679
Speaker 4: and free love. Their follow through on those beliefs varied wildly, right,

1915
01:50:23,760 --> 01:50:26,839
Speaker 4: So we can see that in some collectivized industries, for instance,

1916
01:50:27,479 --> 01:50:31,000
Speaker 4: the unions took on the role they would assign women

1917
01:50:31,360 --> 01:50:35,000
Speaker 4: I guess I was going to say mentors, but apprenticeships, right, So,

1918
01:50:35,120 --> 01:50:38,559
Speaker 4: like they wanted, in for instance, to CNT Transport Union.

1919
01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:42,360
Speaker 4: Once the revolution had happened and the CNT Transport Union

1920
01:50:42,400 --> 01:50:46,719
Speaker 4: had been collectivized, women who wished to be tram drivers

1921
01:50:46,800 --> 01:50:49,960
Speaker 4: or bus drivers could apprentice to men in that position,

1922
01:50:50,040 --> 01:50:53,479
Speaker 4: so that in order to achieve more gender equality within

1923
01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:58,000
Speaker 4: that sphere. Right, this is something that the Franco estate hated.

1924
01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:00,800
Speaker 4: It also had its own kind of unique take on

1925
01:51:00,920 --> 01:51:08,000
Speaker 4: eugenics that that manifested in its pro natalism. Spain couldn't

1926
01:51:08,200 --> 01:51:13,439
Speaker 4: really do the straight racial eugenics right like that, that

1927
01:51:13,520 --> 01:51:17,080
Speaker 4: doesn't really work with Spanish history. But instead they saw

1928
01:51:17,280 --> 01:51:21,719
Speaker 4: leftism as being some kind of genetic defect and something

1929
01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:25,160
Speaker 4: of a pathogen that spread within society. Welcome mind virus.

1930
01:51:25,320 --> 01:51:28,280
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, god no, it's it's.

1931
01:51:28,120 --> 01:51:31,400
Speaker 3: Pulling from the same type of fascist right.

1932
01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:35,360
Speaker 4: It also practiced something called anti Semitism without Jews at

1933
01:51:35,360 --> 01:51:39,000
Speaker 4: this time, so there was a very very small Jewish

1934
01:51:39,080 --> 01:51:44,800
Speaker 4: population space. But nonetheless, Franco was constantly freaking out about

1935
01:51:44,840 --> 01:51:50,559
Speaker 4: Judeo Bolshevism. He saw liberalism, Marxism, anarchism, feminism, Judaism, et

1936
01:51:50,640 --> 01:51:53,880
Speaker 4: cetera as completely antithetical to spanishness, and of course they

1937
01:51:53,880 --> 01:51:56,320
Speaker 4: blame us for their national declient right something little fascists

1938
01:51:56,360 --> 01:51:59,919
Speaker 4: like to talk about. This anti leftist eugenics and proNT

1939
01:52:01,240 --> 01:52:05,920
Speaker 4: extended to something called ninos robalos nenzfostats in Catalan. These

1940
01:52:06,040 --> 01:52:10,400
Speaker 4: children were abducted from their parents. Sometimes this is when

1941
01:52:10,880 --> 01:52:14,120
Speaker 4: their parents were in jail. Sometimes it was when the

1942
01:52:14,160 --> 01:52:17,719
Speaker 4: parents had been killed. Sometimes it was when the mother

1943
01:52:17,800 --> 01:52:20,759
Speaker 4: had been forced into incarceration by something called the Women's

1944
01:52:20,800 --> 01:52:24,680
Speaker 4: Protection Board. This, theoretically run by Franca's wife, was a

1945
01:52:24,720 --> 01:52:28,800
Speaker 4: way of institutionalizing quote unquote fallen women or women who

1946
01:52:28,840 --> 01:52:32,920
Speaker 4: were quote at risk of falling. It provides a way

1947
01:52:32,960 --> 01:52:36,080
Speaker 4: to force any woman you want to into an institution.

1948
01:52:36,880 --> 01:52:41,280
Speaker 4: These children who were taken from their mothers were often

1949
01:52:41,320 --> 01:52:45,439
Speaker 4: trafficked and some cases sold to approve families by nuns

1950
01:52:45,439 --> 01:52:47,559
Speaker 4: and priests. I'm going to quote one example from a

1951
01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:51,679
Speaker 4: BBC article in nineteen seventy one. Manoli, who was twenty

1952
01:52:51,720 --> 01:52:54,559
Speaker 4: three at the time and not long married, gave birth

1953
01:52:54,560 --> 01:52:56,479
Speaker 4: to what she was told with a healthy baby boy,

1954
01:52:57,000 --> 01:52:59,200
Speaker 4: but he was immediately taken away for what were called

1955
01:52:59,320 --> 01:53:04,760
Speaker 4: routine tests. Nine interminable hours passed. Then a nun who

1956
01:53:04,840 --> 01:53:07,000
Speaker 4: was a nurse called in for me that my baby

1957
01:53:07,040 --> 01:53:09,880
Speaker 4: had died. She said they would not let her have

1958
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:12,160
Speaker 4: her son's body, nor would they tell her when the

1959
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:15,160
Speaker 4: funeral would be. Some of these clinics went as far

1960
01:53:15,200 --> 01:53:17,360
Speaker 4: as to keep the body of a dead baby in

1961
01:53:17,400 --> 01:53:20,799
Speaker 4: a freezer and they would bring it out to show mothers.

1962
01:53:21,479 --> 01:53:24,360
Speaker 4: They even dug grave for babies, but many of those

1963
01:53:24,400 --> 01:53:29,240
Speaker 4: grave just contained stones or the remains of adults. These

1964
01:53:29,280 --> 01:53:34,599
Speaker 4: babies were then given or sold to other families and raised,

1965
01:53:34,640 --> 01:53:36,840
Speaker 4: and in some cases they lived their whole lives and

1966
01:53:36,920 --> 01:53:40,639
Speaker 4: died without ever knowing who their parents were. Right. I remember,

1967
01:53:40,760 --> 01:53:43,280
Speaker 4: like I was doing my PhD when the initial research

1968
01:53:43,320 --> 01:53:46,480
Speaker 4: into this was being done, And it is fucking horrible

1969
01:53:46,640 --> 01:53:49,240
Speaker 4: for people to find this out, right, like, because the

1970
01:53:49,240 --> 01:53:51,240
Speaker 4: people who were stolen from their families and in many

1971
01:53:51,280 --> 01:53:55,080
Speaker 4: cases are like still alive, right and in most cases

1972
01:53:55,120 --> 01:53:59,400
Speaker 4: their birth ctificately exists with say mother unknown. And that

1973
01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:02,880
Speaker 4: was a process that existed to protect women who have

1974
01:54:02,960 --> 01:54:05,960
Speaker 4: had children outside of marriage, but was also used to

1975
01:54:06,080 --> 01:54:09,600
Speaker 4: steal babies and leave no paper trail. At least in

1976
01:54:09,600 --> 01:54:12,519
Speaker 4: twenty eleven, the BBC confronted one of the doctors who

1977
01:54:12,560 --> 01:54:15,479
Speaker 4: was doing this. It's kind of a wild BBC. I've

1978
01:54:15,520 --> 01:54:17,679
Speaker 4: linked it as an article. There was also like a

1979
01:54:17,800 --> 01:54:21,080
Speaker 4: I guess it's like a podcast, a radio documentary where

1980
01:54:21,400 --> 01:54:23,600
Speaker 4: one of their reporters had recently had a baby so

1981
01:54:23,640 --> 01:54:27,160
Speaker 4: it was able to make an appointment with the obgyn

1982
01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:30,120
Speaker 4: who was stealing these babies, and when she confronted him,

1983
01:54:30,320 --> 01:54:33,440
Speaker 4: he grasped the crucifix and started brandishing it at her.

1984
01:54:33,920 --> 01:54:39,840
Speaker 4: In Jesus, the first incredible country. The reason that they

1985
01:54:39,880 --> 01:54:43,680
Speaker 4: did this right was because their fascism was of a

1986
01:54:43,760 --> 01:54:46,520
Speaker 4: unique kind that was, you know, Paul Preston said that

1987
01:54:46,520 --> 01:54:49,640
Speaker 4: Franco wasn't fascist, you with something worse. They had what's

1988
01:54:49,640 --> 01:54:53,160
Speaker 4: called national Catholicism right, which prevented them from doing sterilization

1989
01:54:53,400 --> 01:54:56,200
Speaker 4: or abortion. So instead they felt that they could steal

1990
01:54:56,280 --> 01:54:59,920
Speaker 4: these children and sort of raise them outside of the

1991
01:55:00,240 --> 01:55:02,440
Speaker 4: leftist kind of pathogen.

1992
01:55:02,160 --> 01:55:05,960
Speaker 2: I do love just I'm working on the Salazar episodes

1993
01:55:06,040 --> 01:55:08,960
Speaker 2: right now. I love how often Iberians are like, we're

1994
01:55:09,000 --> 01:55:11,800
Speaker 2: gonna do fascism just but like we're gonna put some

1995
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:15,200
Speaker 2: spins on it, like how the Portuguese were like, we're

1996
01:55:15,200 --> 01:55:19,280
Speaker 2: gonna do fascism, but with us having sex with absolutely everyone,

1997
01:55:19,320 --> 01:55:21,560
Speaker 2: we're colonizing and trying to make an argument to the

1998
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:24,680
Speaker 2: fact that like that makes us the good colonizers because

1999
01:55:24,720 --> 01:55:28,280
Speaker 2: of all the sex assaults. We're not racist, guys, It's fine,

2000
01:55:29,600 --> 01:55:31,800
Speaker 2: We're communing.

2001
01:55:32,640 --> 01:55:37,520
Speaker 4: God. Iberia Baby Spain is different, as the slogan used

2002
01:55:37,560 --> 01:55:40,800
Speaker 4: to go m was a Francoist tourism slogan back in

2003
01:55:40,840 --> 01:55:43,640
Speaker 4: the day. Yeah, so the discourse, the quote true Catholic

2004
01:55:43,720 --> 01:55:47,920
Speaker 4: womanhood was essential to Francoist nationalization of women. They were

2005
01:55:48,200 --> 01:55:51,080
Speaker 4: raised to serve the patia right, the fatherland, with their bodies,

2006
01:55:51,240 --> 01:55:54,360
Speaker 4: not their minds. In the Republic, Spain had used secular

2007
01:55:54,480 --> 01:55:57,400
Speaker 4: education to fight it's perceived in real backwardness compared to

2008
01:55:57,440 --> 01:56:01,400
Speaker 4: the rest of Europe, the Francoist predictive opposite. It returned

2009
01:56:01,480 --> 01:56:05,560
Speaker 4: for its inspiration to sixteenth century Catholic texts, and they

2010
01:56:05,600 --> 01:56:08,920
Speaker 4: saw intellectual development as a risk to femininity and a

2011
01:56:09,000 --> 01:56:11,760
Speaker 4: risk to the ultimate goal of women's lives, which was motherhood.

2012
01:56:12,400 --> 01:56:14,640
Speaker 4: In terms of I guess birth rates like they did have.

2013
01:56:15,320 --> 01:56:16,960
Speaker 4: You have a post war baby boom rate. You have

2014
01:56:17,000 --> 01:56:19,760
Speaker 4: that everywhere that is affected by a large war, Like

2015
01:56:20,200 --> 01:56:23,240
Speaker 4: you know, there are pretty obvious reasons for this, and

2016
01:56:23,280 --> 01:56:27,280
Speaker 4: then birth rates do go up until like the nineteen seventies,

2017
01:56:27,560 --> 01:56:31,040
Speaker 4: nineteen eighties, and then they start declining rapidly and Spain

2018
01:56:31,280 --> 01:56:33,560
Speaker 4: is once again in like a sort of not so

2019
01:56:33,640 --> 01:56:36,000
Speaker 4: much a birth rate panic. I didn't think, but it

2020
01:56:36,080 --> 01:56:39,640
Speaker 4: is noted that Spanish birth rates have gone down since

2021
01:56:39,680 --> 01:56:43,880
Speaker 4: the nineteen eighties, but nonetheless Spanish birth rates never more

2022
01:56:43,960 --> 01:56:46,720
Speaker 4: particularly high compared to those in the rest of Europe

2023
01:56:46,840 --> 01:56:49,920
Speaker 4: because Franco was an absolutely wrapped up to the economy, right,

2024
01:56:50,080 --> 01:56:52,120
Speaker 4: which made it harder for people to have more children.

2025
01:56:52,480 --> 01:56:53,760
Speaker 4: But yeah, that's what I've got. If you want to

2026
01:56:53,800 --> 01:56:56,720
Speaker 4: read more on Ninio Strobados, I think there's a TV

2027
01:56:56,880 --> 01:56:59,560
Speaker 4: series about it now, Stolen Children. I'm sure you can

2028
01:56:59,560 --> 01:57:02,640
Speaker 4: find it wastitles. But someone made a documentary on this

2029
01:57:02,720 --> 01:57:04,800
Speaker 4: that was presented in academic conference I did, and if

2030
01:57:04,840 --> 01:57:06,360
Speaker 4: I find the link, I will put it in the

2031
01:57:06,360 --> 01:57:07,640
Speaker 4: show notes. Hell.

2032
01:57:07,720 --> 01:57:13,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think it's time to talk about Romania now.

2033
01:57:14,440 --> 01:57:16,800
Speaker 2: When it comes to who is the worst at doing

2034
01:57:16,840 --> 01:57:21,200
Speaker 2: pro natalism, there's a lot of contenders, but I feel

2035
01:57:21,200 --> 01:57:23,920
Speaker 2: like we got the usane bolt of natalism right here,

2036
01:57:23,960 --> 01:57:26,920
Speaker 2: and it's s chi Jescu regime. So we got to

2037
01:57:26,920 --> 01:57:29,120
Speaker 2: peel back a little bit here and talk about you know,

2038
01:57:29,120 --> 01:57:31,960
Speaker 2: when communism first came to Romania, which was like kind

2039
01:57:31,960 --> 01:57:34,320
Speaker 2: of the end of forty seven, early nineteen forty eight,

2040
01:57:34,880 --> 01:57:37,400
Speaker 2: and in the first years of the communist regime, it

2041
01:57:37,440 --> 01:57:40,680
Speaker 2: brought the same changes that communist governments in Europe all

2042
01:57:40,720 --> 01:57:44,440
Speaker 2: tended to bring in the post war period, obviously earlier

2043
01:57:44,440 --> 01:57:47,520
Speaker 2: for the USSR. And a lot of these are good actually, right,

2044
01:57:47,600 --> 01:57:50,320
Speaker 2: not to deny all the horrible things that were happening.

2045
01:57:50,320 --> 01:57:53,320
Speaker 2: But life changes pretty dramatically in a positive way for

2046
01:57:53,400 --> 01:57:55,680
Speaker 2: a lot of women. This is true in Russia as well.

2047
01:57:55,960 --> 01:57:59,520
Speaker 2: Literacy for women rises, the employment rate for women rises,

2048
01:57:59,560 --> 01:58:01,960
Speaker 2: And this happened across society, right. A lot of the

2049
01:58:01,960 --> 01:58:06,520
Speaker 2: poorest people in these societies experience substantial initial lifts, right.

2050
01:58:06,600 --> 01:58:10,480
Speaker 2: And along with that, lifespan increases pretty dramatically. Rates of

2051
01:58:10,560 --> 01:58:15,040
Speaker 2: accidental death fall pretty dramatically, and literacy increases. And again,

2052
01:58:15,080 --> 01:58:18,560
Speaker 2: it increases across the board, but it is particularly significant

2053
01:58:18,600 --> 01:58:19,080
Speaker 2: for women.

2054
01:58:19,280 --> 01:58:19,480
Speaker 4: Right.

2055
01:58:19,960 --> 01:58:24,600
Speaker 2: And this is all lovely, These are good things, right. However,

2056
01:58:24,640 --> 01:58:26,440
Speaker 2: it comes with a problem for a lot of the

2057
01:58:26,520 --> 01:58:28,200
Speaker 2: leaders And this is not just true in Romania, but

2058
01:58:28,200 --> 01:58:30,440
Speaker 2: we're talking about Romania here. It comes with the problem

2059
01:58:30,480 --> 01:58:33,040
Speaker 2: for a lot of the leadership of Romania's Communist Party,

2060
01:58:33,280 --> 01:58:35,560
Speaker 2: which is that one of the things we see in

2061
01:58:35,600 --> 01:58:39,520
Speaker 2: every society when people have more and are doing better

2062
01:58:39,600 --> 01:58:44,080
Speaker 2: and live longer, is that they start having less kids, because,

2063
01:58:44,200 --> 01:58:46,480
Speaker 2: among other things, all their kids aren't dying.

2064
01:58:46,720 --> 01:58:46,840
Speaker 1: Right.

2065
01:58:46,880 --> 01:58:49,560
Speaker 2: One reason why birth rates are high is people are like, yeah, well,

2066
01:58:49,560 --> 01:58:51,280
Speaker 2: like the three of them might live, right, you know,

2067
01:58:51,320 --> 01:58:53,800
Speaker 2: I gotta I gotta really pump these numbers up them

2068
01:58:53,800 --> 01:58:56,080
Speaker 2: and have enough kids to keep this fucking farm going, right,

2069
01:58:56,400 --> 01:58:59,080
Speaker 2: And when that stops happening, women are like, well, maybe

2070
01:58:59,120 --> 01:59:01,160
Speaker 2: I don't need to have eleven kids, yeah, right, Like

2071
01:59:01,160 --> 01:59:02,760
Speaker 2: if they're all going to live to adults, I don't

2072
01:59:02,760 --> 01:59:06,200
Speaker 2: need in children to be adults, right, So birth rates

2073
01:59:06,240 --> 01:59:08,880
Speaker 2: start to fall. This freaks out though a lot of

2074
01:59:08,920 --> 01:59:11,720
Speaker 2: these these communists, because the kind of communists who are

2075
01:59:11,720 --> 01:59:16,400
Speaker 2: like leading Romania are very traditional Marxists, right, And Marx

2076
01:59:16,680 --> 01:59:19,280
Speaker 2: was what you call a physiocrat, right, which is a

2077
01:59:19,360 --> 01:59:20,960
Speaker 2: term that I found for the first time in a

2078
01:59:21,040 --> 01:59:23,080
Speaker 2: Journal of Family History article, But it's a term you

2079
01:59:23,080 --> 01:59:25,040
Speaker 2: can find other places. And the basic idea is that

2080
01:59:25,240 --> 01:59:26,840
Speaker 2: and this is an idea that then it goes back

2081
01:59:26,880 --> 01:59:30,400
Speaker 2: to the original Marx. More people equals better economy, right,

2082
01:59:30,480 --> 01:59:34,400
Speaker 2: equals more productivity. So falling fertility is seen as a

2083
01:59:34,480 --> 01:59:37,920
Speaker 2: potential calamity for the state. You know, obviously this isn't

2084
01:59:38,000 --> 01:59:41,040
Speaker 2: how it works, Like the US has had fertility rates

2085
01:59:41,040 --> 01:59:44,839
Speaker 2: falling and like economic prosperity rise in the same period

2086
01:59:44,840 --> 01:59:48,480
Speaker 2: of time. But this is like a thing that they think,

2087
01:59:48,560 --> 01:59:50,040
Speaker 2: right then that like if we don't bump up these

2088
01:59:50,040 --> 01:59:52,160
Speaker 2: birth rates we're going to deal with like an actual

2089
01:59:52,200 --> 01:59:56,920
Speaker 2: economic disaster. So by the time Nikolaichichesku takes over as

2090
01:59:57,000 --> 01:59:59,400
Speaker 2: party leader on June twenty third, nineteen sixty six, the

2091
01:59:59,400 --> 02:00:01,640
Speaker 2: problem is serious enough in his eyes that it had

2092
02:00:01,680 --> 02:00:05,640
Speaker 2: become a crisis and the birth rate had declined pretty precipitously.

2093
02:00:05,800 --> 02:00:08,680
Speaker 2: In nineteen fifty five, there were about twenty five point

2094
02:00:08,720 --> 02:00:12,800
Speaker 2: six life births per thousand people in Romania, and by

2095
02:00:12,800 --> 02:00:15,560
Speaker 2: the time to Chescu takes over, there's about fourteen live

2096
02:00:15,640 --> 02:00:18,840
Speaker 2: births per thousand people. Right now, for reference, both of

2097
02:00:18,880 --> 02:00:20,800
Speaker 2: those are still higher than the US birth rate. Right now,

2098
02:00:20,880 --> 02:00:22,960
Speaker 2: we're at about eleven a little less than eleven live

2099
02:00:23,000 --> 02:00:25,480
Speaker 2: births per thousand people in the country. The only reason

2100
02:00:25,520 --> 02:00:28,200
Speaker 2: why the US population continues to grow is immigration, but

2101
02:00:28,440 --> 02:00:32,040
Speaker 2: that's a topic for another day. Cichescu stated that women

2102
02:00:32,160 --> 02:00:35,280
Speaker 2: needed to use their influence to rebuild the family, and

2103
02:00:35,400 --> 02:00:37,760
Speaker 2: per that article in the Journal of Family History, Cichescu

2104
02:00:37,840 --> 02:00:40,880
Speaker 2: declared that backward attitudes and expressions of levity toward the

2105
02:00:40,880 --> 02:00:44,440
Speaker 2: family must be combated with determination because they result in

2106
02:00:44,480 --> 02:00:47,160
Speaker 2: an increase in the number of divorces in the disintegration

2107
02:00:47,200 --> 02:00:49,160
Speaker 2: of the family. And then the neglect of the children's

2108
02:00:49,240 --> 02:00:52,000
Speaker 2: education and training for life. And this is something that

2109
02:00:52,040 --> 02:00:55,080
Speaker 2: had come alongside the revolution, right that there's a lot

2110
02:00:55,080 --> 02:00:58,680
Speaker 2: of more critical ideas about these traditional concepts like the

2111
02:00:58,720 --> 02:01:02,280
Speaker 2: family in the society that it existed before. And a

2112
02:01:02,280 --> 02:01:04,160
Speaker 2: lot of people are like, well, but you know, we're

2113
02:01:04,600 --> 02:01:08,600
Speaker 2: becoming more scientific, you know, we have like women have jobs. Now,

2114
02:01:08,760 --> 02:01:10,760
Speaker 2: maybe a lot of these attitudes about what the family

2115
02:01:10,800 --> 02:01:13,640
Speaker 2: should be are kind of outdated. And he's saying, no, no, no, no,

2116
02:01:13,680 --> 02:01:15,160
Speaker 2: they're not, they're not you need to go back to

2117
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:18,120
Speaker 2: having a shitload of kids, right, And he announces a

2118
02:01:18,160 --> 02:01:21,040
Speaker 2: new initiative to increase the population of Romania by thirty

2119
02:01:21,080 --> 02:01:25,520
Speaker 2: percent by nineteen ninety so, which I don't know if

2120
02:01:25,560 --> 02:01:28,560
Speaker 2: the idea that would ever be possible is a long shot.

2121
02:01:28,840 --> 02:01:29,000
Speaker 4: Right.

2122
02:01:29,200 --> 02:01:33,760
Speaker 2: So that's that's a massive change in society. But Chichescu

2123
02:01:34,280 --> 02:01:38,320
Speaker 2: isn't a logic thinker guy, right, He's not like running

2124
02:01:38,360 --> 02:01:40,800
Speaker 2: the numbers hardcore here. He's just sort of throwing out

2125
02:01:40,800 --> 02:01:43,680
Speaker 2: some shit that sounds good. And so to encourage the shift,

2126
02:01:43,680 --> 02:01:47,280
Speaker 2: he leashes a famous raft of new legislation aimed towards

2127
02:01:47,480 --> 02:01:50,400
Speaker 2: like pro natalism, towards massively increasing the birth rate. The

2128
02:01:50,440 --> 02:01:53,280
Speaker 2: first step is that abortion is banned for nearly all

2129
02:01:53,320 --> 02:01:56,520
Speaker 2: women in the country. There are some exceptions. For example,

2130
02:01:56,560 --> 02:01:58,880
Speaker 2: you can qualify for an abortion if you've had if

2131
02:01:58,880 --> 02:02:03,240
Speaker 2: you already have five children under eighteen in the house concurrently.

2132
02:02:04,000 --> 02:02:05,160
Speaker 4: Which is nice.

2133
02:02:05,680 --> 02:02:07,920
Speaker 2: There's one or two other exceptions based on your age,

2134
02:02:07,960 --> 02:02:11,120
Speaker 2: but there aren't many exceptions per an article in PubMed.

2135
02:02:11,320 --> 02:02:14,280
Speaker 2: In addition, employed women under age forty five years are

2136
02:02:14,280 --> 02:02:18,840
Speaker 2: required to undergo monthly gynecologic examinations at their workplaces, and

2137
02:02:18,880 --> 02:02:22,880
Speaker 2: any pregnancies detected are monitored to term. Unmarried persons over

2138
02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:25,720
Speaker 2: twenty five years of age and childless married couples without

2139
02:02:25,720 --> 02:02:28,880
Speaker 2: a valid medical reason for infertility are assessed to thirty

2140
02:02:28,880 --> 02:02:32,680
Speaker 2: percent tax on income. Jesus Women who refuse to have

2141
02:02:32,800 --> 02:02:37,240
Speaker 2: children have been termed deserters. Despite official pro natalist policies.

2142
02:02:37,240 --> 02:02:39,440
Speaker 2: It has been estimated that forty percent of the seven

2143
02:02:39,520 --> 02:02:42,680
Speaker 2: hundred thousand Romanian women pregnant in nineteen eighty five had

2144
02:02:42,760 --> 02:02:45,840
Speaker 2: illegal abortions. A special unit has been established within the

2145
02:02:45,880 --> 02:02:48,840
Speaker 2: State Security Police to combat this practice. So we're so

2146
02:02:49,040 --> 02:02:51,920
Speaker 2: close to this, we are we are not They really

2147
02:02:51,960 --> 02:02:54,040
Speaker 2: want to do all of.

2148
02:02:53,920 --> 02:02:55,840
Speaker 4: This we're like knocking on the door.

2149
02:02:56,080 --> 02:02:57,840
Speaker 2: They are like that is the thing that I really

2150
02:02:57,840 --> 02:03:00,360
Speaker 2: want to drive home is that the closest that I

2151
02:03:00,440 --> 02:03:03,080
Speaker 2: have found in all of my rings, the closest direct

2152
02:03:03,160 --> 02:03:06,000
Speaker 2: graph to what guys like Vance and Musk are suggesting

2153
02:03:06,040 --> 02:03:08,040
Speaker 2: for US policy is Romania.

2154
02:03:09,520 --> 02:03:12,400
Speaker 4: Like and it's also the worst that has ever worked.

2155
02:03:14,120 --> 02:03:16,560
Speaker 4: When I was a lot younger, Like when I was sixteen,

2156
02:03:16,720 --> 02:03:21,240
Speaker 4: I volunteered in an orphanage venure diverting kids in Romania.

2157
02:03:21,680 --> 02:03:24,320
Speaker 4: Jesus fucking Christ. Well, I mean they created a culture

2158
02:03:24,320 --> 02:03:27,080
Speaker 4: of child abandonment, right, Like, yes, yeah, we'll be talking

2159
02:03:27,120 --> 02:03:29,880
Speaker 4: about that. That shit fucked me up, And yeah, you

2160
02:03:29,920 --> 02:03:31,920
Speaker 4: shouldn't send your sixteen year old children to do that,

2161
02:03:32,160 --> 02:03:33,240
Speaker 4: to be kod, but like.

2162
02:03:33,680 --> 02:03:36,160
Speaker 2: No, and you're you're encountering it after the worst of

2163
02:03:36,160 --> 02:03:38,840
Speaker 2: it too, which we'll talk about here, not to minimize

2164
02:03:38,840 --> 02:03:41,120
Speaker 2: the experience, but we'll be discussing where it was at

2165
02:03:41,160 --> 02:03:44,560
Speaker 2: its worst. So it's worth noting that while women did

2166
02:03:44,600 --> 02:03:47,720
Speaker 2: start working at a higher rate after Communist takeover, that

2167
02:03:47,800 --> 02:03:50,680
Speaker 2: started to plateau by the time that Chicheski, because obviously,

2168
02:03:50,720 --> 02:03:52,880
Speaker 2: like there was still a lot of Communism doesn't get

2169
02:03:52,960 --> 02:03:55,480
Speaker 2: rid of men being shitty to women, right, it does

2170
02:03:56,240 --> 02:03:57,800
Speaker 2: do things do get a lot better.

2171
02:03:58,000 --> 02:04:01,200
Speaker 1: Right, sometimes it empowers shit And at.

2172
02:04:01,040 --> 02:04:03,080
Speaker 2: The start, like kind of right around when he announces

2173
02:04:03,120 --> 02:04:05,760
Speaker 2: the set of fertility laws, he does try to institute

2174
02:04:05,760 --> 02:04:08,000
Speaker 2: a policy with the goal of increasing the number of

2175
02:04:08,040 --> 02:04:11,240
Speaker 2: women working at high positions in different state departments. Right,

2176
02:04:11,280 --> 02:04:12,920
Speaker 2: there is an initial like we're going to break the

2177
02:04:12,960 --> 02:04:15,680
Speaker 2: grant glass ceiling kind of thing, but that doesn't last long.

2178
02:04:15,720 --> 02:04:18,520
Speaker 2: He basically cancels any sort of messaging or work on

2179
02:04:18,560 --> 02:04:21,440
Speaker 2: the policy. After his wife, Elena, is made a member

2180
02:04:21,480 --> 02:04:23,880
Speaker 2: of the party executive committee. He's like, women have gone

2181
02:04:23,880 --> 02:04:31,360
Speaker 2: fired up. Look at my wife. Classic chichesku. Yes, classic

2182
02:04:31,440 --> 02:04:37,840
Speaker 2: guy who's going to die with his wife in a basement. So,

2183
02:04:38,040 --> 02:04:40,880
Speaker 2: as is always the case with shit like this, women

2184
02:04:40,920 --> 02:04:43,360
Speaker 2: were not equally impacted by the abortion ban.

2185
02:04:43,640 --> 02:04:44,120
Speaker 4: Largely.

2186
02:04:44,360 --> 02:04:47,560
Speaker 2: The impacts were pretty wildly divergent based on your level

2187
02:04:47,560 --> 02:04:49,240
Speaker 2: of wealth and social class. And I'm going to quote

2188
02:04:49,280 --> 02:04:53,560
Speaker 2: from an investigation by the NGO Helsinki Watch, who conducted

2189
02:04:53,600 --> 02:04:56,200
Speaker 2: a deep investigation into all of this immediately after the

2190
02:04:56,240 --> 02:04:59,360
Speaker 2: regime fell. Women were not equally affected by the pro

2191
02:04:59,400 --> 02:05:02,400
Speaker 2: natalist pos policies. Members of the urban middle class managed

2192
02:05:02,400 --> 02:05:04,920
Speaker 2: somehow or another to get contraceptives on the black market.

2193
02:05:04,920 --> 02:05:07,400
Speaker 2: Oh I should also know contraceptives were basically made illegal,

2194
02:05:07,680 --> 02:05:10,560
Speaker 2: with the exception of like condoms. They could also obtain

2195
02:05:10,640 --> 02:05:14,320
Speaker 2: medical abortions. A Bucharest student candidly informed Helsinki Watch that

2196
02:05:14,400 --> 02:05:16,880
Speaker 2: several years ago, when his girlfriend became pregnant, the abortion

2197
02:05:16,960 --> 02:05:19,400
Speaker 2: had cost him five thousand lay or about fifty dollars

2198
02:05:19,480 --> 02:05:22,240
Speaker 2: on the black market, and several women with professional degrees

2199
02:05:22,240 --> 02:05:24,560
Speaker 2: reported matter of factly that they had simply refused to

2200
02:05:24,600 --> 02:05:28,080
Speaker 2: cooperate with government gynecological inspectors who came to their institutes

2201
02:05:28,240 --> 02:05:31,560
Speaker 2: without suffering any reprisals. Nor were the most rural segments

2202
02:05:31,560 --> 02:05:34,920
Speaker 2: of the population deeply affected. The Orthodox Christians had long

2203
02:05:34,960 --> 02:05:37,520
Speaker 2: shunned birth control and abortion, and others like the ROMA

2204
02:05:37,560 --> 02:05:40,520
Speaker 2: had not practiced it. The brunt of the policy fell

2205
02:05:40,520 --> 02:05:43,800
Speaker 2: on the lower middle class, particularly factory workers, single women,

2206
02:05:44,160 --> 02:05:47,240
Speaker 2: urban ROMA, and those from disorganized or troubled families, none

2207
02:05:47,240 --> 02:05:50,440
Speaker 2: of whom had the money or connections to circumvent the regulations.

2208
02:05:50,920 --> 02:05:53,360
Speaker 2: Their options were as limited as they were life threatening.

2209
02:05:53,400 --> 02:05:55,800
Speaker 2: Some used a variety of would be aborta fascians. Others

2210
02:05:55,840 --> 02:05:58,560
Speaker 2: availed themselves of the services of a back alley abortionist.

2211
02:05:58,840 --> 02:06:01,840
Speaker 2: Still others carried to term and the number of deaths,

2212
02:06:02,120 --> 02:06:04,000
Speaker 2: the mortality rate for women as a result of this

2213
02:06:04,040 --> 02:06:06,400
Speaker 2: did right, Like, there's a lot of hideous stuff there.

2214
02:06:06,480 --> 02:06:08,760
Speaker 2: We're kind of doing the shortest version of this, But

2215
02:06:08,800 --> 02:06:11,320
Speaker 2: I don't mean to paper over that a lot of

2216
02:06:11,360 --> 02:06:14,440
Speaker 2: women died and suffered lasting injury in fertility and a

2217
02:06:14,520 --> 02:06:17,680
Speaker 2: number of other things because of different back alley abortions

2218
02:06:17,680 --> 02:06:19,160
Speaker 2: and weird drugs that they were given.

2219
02:06:19,520 --> 02:06:20,440
Speaker 4: But it's important to.

2220
02:06:20,360 --> 02:06:23,280
Speaker 2: Note that women who had money and opposition in the

2221
02:06:23,280 --> 02:06:26,440
Speaker 2: social class could still gain access to this shit. And

2222
02:06:26,480 --> 02:06:28,840
Speaker 2: that's how it will work here too, right, Like, these

2223
02:06:28,880 --> 02:06:32,880
Speaker 2: Republican congressmen will not be restricting their family members from

2224
02:06:32,920 --> 02:06:34,920
Speaker 2: having access to this stuff.

2225
02:06:35,080 --> 02:06:37,040
Speaker 4: They'll be restricting poor people. Right.

2226
02:06:37,280 --> 02:06:39,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, the first thing I should know about this

2227
02:06:39,400 --> 02:06:42,000
Speaker 2: whole raft of policies Toichescu introduced is that they did

2228
02:06:42,040 --> 02:06:44,880
Speaker 2: not work. That Journal of Family History article that I've

2229
02:06:44,960 --> 02:06:47,160
Speaker 2: quoted from a couple of times. Here ran the numbers

2230
02:06:47,200 --> 02:06:49,760
Speaker 2: to try to analyze how well did this, like, how

2231
02:06:49,800 --> 02:06:53,200
Speaker 2: did these policies correspond to birth rates in Romania? And

2232
02:06:53,400 --> 02:06:55,320
Speaker 2: it is true that after the first major laws were

2233
02:06:55,320 --> 02:06:57,440
Speaker 2: pushed in sixty seven and sixty eight. There was a

2234
02:06:57,480 --> 02:07:01,200
Speaker 2: brief surge in birth rates, but that very quickly and

2235
02:07:01,240 --> 02:07:04,240
Speaker 2: had completely disappeared. By the nineteen seventies, things were back

2236
02:07:04,240 --> 02:07:07,839
Speaker 2: to baseline. So in nineteen seventy four, Toichescu launches another

2237
02:07:07,920 --> 02:07:11,120
Speaker 2: push to increase birth rates, and again they briefly increase

2238
02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:13,879
Speaker 2: and then fall a year or two later. This process

2239
02:07:13,960 --> 02:07:16,720
Speaker 2: plays out a couple times throughout the administration, and one

2240
02:07:16,760 --> 02:07:18,600
Speaker 2: of the things that's important to note is that the

2241
02:07:18,720 --> 02:07:21,560
Speaker 2: increase that happens after every new sort of like focus

2242
02:07:21,680 --> 02:07:25,320
Speaker 2: on birth rates is less each time, Right, it gets

2243
02:07:25,400 --> 02:07:28,560
Speaker 2: less effective every time. Now, the analysis in that paper

2244
02:07:28,560 --> 02:07:31,160
Speaker 2: concluded the birth rate would only rise when the state

2245
02:07:31,160 --> 02:07:35,680
Speaker 2: applied direct pressures on the population. Otherwise it dropped, right,

2246
02:07:36,520 --> 02:07:40,440
Speaker 2: because this just doesn't work, Like, you're not fundamentally changing anything,

2247
02:07:40,440 --> 02:07:42,840
Speaker 2: and none of these incentives because they're expensive, and in

2248
02:07:42,920 --> 02:07:45,400
Speaker 2: Romania's case, the country literally didn't have money to provide

2249
02:07:45,480 --> 02:07:48,240
Speaker 2: much of the way of incentives, right, but they never

2250
02:07:48,400 --> 02:07:51,000
Speaker 2: are going to work. Like, as we went over earlier,

2251
02:07:51,040 --> 02:07:53,680
Speaker 2: the ones being proposed here are wildly insufficient to deal

2252
02:07:53,720 --> 02:07:55,720
Speaker 2: with the cost of having kids, let alone a bunch

2253
02:07:55,760 --> 02:07:58,360
Speaker 2: of fucking kids, and none of the people in charge

2254
02:07:58,360 --> 02:08:00,760
Speaker 2: of the Republican Party have any interest in making life

2255
02:08:00,760 --> 02:08:03,600
Speaker 2: affordable for people who are not rich.

2256
02:08:04,240 --> 02:08:04,480
Speaker 4: Now.

2257
02:08:04,520 --> 02:08:06,760
Speaker 2: The situation that this led to by the time that

2258
02:08:06,840 --> 02:08:10,120
Speaker 2: Chicheske regime fell in eighty nine was also pretty catastrophic

2259
02:08:10,200 --> 02:08:13,280
Speaker 2: because there had been surges in births, right, in births

2260
02:08:13,320 --> 02:08:16,240
Speaker 2: of kids to parents who because the people who can't

2261
02:08:16,240 --> 02:08:18,840
Speaker 2: get away from this tend to be the poor, could

2262
02:08:18,840 --> 02:08:21,880
Speaker 2: not take care of these kids right. And there was

2263
02:08:21,920 --> 02:08:23,840
Speaker 2: also a surge in kids as a result of the

2264
02:08:23,880 --> 02:08:25,920
Speaker 2: general surge in birth rate, but also as a result

2265
02:08:25,960 --> 02:08:30,200
Speaker 2: of different sort of issues with nutrition and whatnot. In Romania,

2266
02:08:30,280 --> 02:08:32,320
Speaker 2: a lot of kids who had different physical and mental

2267
02:08:32,320 --> 02:08:35,000
Speaker 2: disabilities right who were just abandoned straight away because their

2268
02:08:35,040 --> 02:08:37,960
Speaker 2: parents could not take care of them. By nineteen ninety

2269
02:08:37,960 --> 02:08:40,520
Speaker 2: there were an estimated one hundred and thirty thousand children

2270
02:08:40,520 --> 02:08:44,040
Speaker 2: in orphanages and homes for the handicapped, these institutions that

2271
02:08:44,080 --> 02:08:47,240
Speaker 2: had been set up in Romania, And there were like

2272
02:08:47,520 --> 02:08:49,640
Speaker 2: posters that were going around that were part of the

2273
02:08:49,680 --> 02:08:52,080
Speaker 2: pro natalist campaign that basically said, hey, if you have

2274
02:08:52,120 --> 02:08:54,120
Speaker 2: a kid you can't take care of or that's not

2275
02:08:54,280 --> 02:08:57,520
Speaker 2: like working out for you. The Romanian government can handle

2276
02:08:57,560 --> 02:08:59,600
Speaker 2: it better than you, So like, who cares have another

2277
02:08:59,720 --> 02:09:02,040
Speaker 2: kid and we'll just drop it off with us if

2278
02:09:02,080 --> 02:09:03,920
Speaker 2: you can't take care of them, right Like that was

2279
02:09:03,960 --> 02:09:06,240
Speaker 2: literally part of the propaganda campaign that led to again

2280
02:09:06,480 --> 02:09:08,480
Speaker 2: like one hundred and thirty thousand kids in orphanages.

2281
02:09:08,600 --> 02:09:10,360
Speaker 1: Oohar fucking Christ.

2282
02:09:10,800 --> 02:09:14,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that hell sinky article I found quoted from a

2283
02:09:14,200 --> 02:09:17,200
Speaker 2: different piece of western news media, like a team of

2284
02:09:17,280 --> 02:09:19,040
Speaker 2: journalists that went to a town called the dell lefter

2285
02:09:19,120 --> 02:09:22,360
Speaker 2: Chichescu fell. And this is how that article opens. On

2286
02:09:22,400 --> 02:09:25,040
Speaker 2: the second floor of the state run institution. Here, dazed

2287
02:09:25,080 --> 02:09:28,320
Speaker 2: toddlers liars sit in iron cribs and close stuffy rooms.

2288
02:09:28,520 --> 02:09:30,880
Speaker 2: Their foreheads are speckled with flies and with scabs and

2289
02:09:30,920 --> 02:09:33,080
Speaker 2: bruises that come from banging their heads and mouths on

2290
02:09:33,120 --> 02:09:35,880
Speaker 2: crib rails. Some cry, but most are silent and appear

2291
02:09:35,920 --> 02:09:39,160
Speaker 2: bewildered behind their bars, with the doomed air of laboratory

2292
02:09:39,200 --> 02:09:43,360
Speaker 2: animals down the hall. Other cribs hold smaller children, pale skeletons,

2293
02:09:43,360 --> 02:09:46,600
Speaker 2: suffering from malnutrition and disease. Despite the heat of the day,

2294
02:09:46,680 --> 02:09:49,240
Speaker 2: several of the children are wrapped in dirty blankets from

2295
02:09:49,280 --> 02:09:52,520
Speaker 2: one still bundle, only a bluish patch of scalp is visible.

2296
02:09:52,800 --> 02:09:55,360
Speaker 2: Ask if the child inside is alive and orderly, says,

2297
02:09:55,400 --> 02:09:58,400
Speaker 2: of course and pulls back the covers. The tiny skeleton

2298
02:09:58,480 --> 02:10:05,160
Speaker 2: stirves turned onto its and groans, Yeah.

2299
02:10:03,960 --> 02:10:04,560
Speaker 4: There's worse.

2300
02:10:04,840 --> 02:10:08,320
Speaker 2: This is not the worst like this like Helsinki article

2301
02:10:08,480 --> 02:10:11,080
Speaker 2: goes into like how in the homes for the handicapped,

2302
02:10:11,480 --> 02:10:14,280
Speaker 2: the children are just ignored. They can go months without

2303
02:10:14,320 --> 02:10:17,160
Speaker 2: any real human contact within the bare men of being fed.

2304
02:10:17,200 --> 02:10:21,440
Speaker 2: There's no one watching these kids like this is some

2305
02:10:21,520 --> 02:10:26,080
Speaker 2: of the most cruelest and most hideous systematic abuse of

2306
02:10:26,160 --> 02:10:27,320
Speaker 2: children I've ever heard of.

2307
02:10:27,480 --> 02:10:29,080
Speaker 4: A lot of children die.

2308
02:10:29,760 --> 02:10:34,200
Speaker 2: AIDS spreads through some of these facilities like wildfire. I

2309
02:10:34,280 --> 02:10:39,440
Speaker 2: really cannot exaggerate like the horror of these institutions. If

2310
02:10:39,480 --> 02:10:42,000
Speaker 2: you do want to read more, there's two articles I'll

2311
02:10:42,000 --> 02:10:43,800
Speaker 2: recommend for you that I'm not going to quote up

2312
02:10:43,800 --> 02:10:45,600
Speaker 2: from now because we're already going long enough. But there's

2313
02:10:45,800 --> 02:10:48,480
Speaker 2: the Romanian Orphans are Adults Now, an article in the

2314
02:10:48,520 --> 02:10:51,840
Speaker 2: Atlantic that's the title. You should check that out, and

2315
02:10:51,880 --> 02:10:55,400
Speaker 2: then Chichescu's Children and The Guardian. Both of those articles

2316
02:10:55,920 --> 02:10:58,920
Speaker 2: do a good job of providing additional context and horror

2317
02:10:58,920 --> 02:11:01,680
Speaker 2: on this, But I think it's important to note that

2318
02:11:01,720 --> 02:11:04,200
Speaker 2: what happened in Romania is what sounds most familiar to

2319
02:11:04,240 --> 02:11:07,080
Speaker 2: the programs being pushed today and also easily the worst

2320
02:11:07,120 --> 02:11:07,840
Speaker 2: this has ever got.

2321
02:11:08,120 --> 02:11:12,680
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, especially combined with like RFK Junior's policies. Yeah,

2322
02:11:12,800 --> 02:11:16,560
Speaker 3: that is like, yeah, yeah, it takes a lot for

2323
02:11:16,600 --> 02:11:19,400
Speaker 3: me to be like kind of shocked and horrified these days.

2324
02:11:19,520 --> 02:11:22,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that stuff is grim. It's some of the

2325
02:11:22,280 --> 02:11:27,520
Speaker 4: worst shit. Yeah. Yeah, oh boy, I remember that the time,

2326
02:11:27,560 --> 02:11:31,480
Speaker 4: there was like concern if the kids were really nonverbal, yeah,

2327
02:11:31,520 --> 02:11:34,560
Speaker 4: like or they just had never been talked to. Oh

2328
02:11:34,640 --> 02:11:37,080
Speaker 4: my god, because right, they've been institutionalized from such a

2329
02:11:37,160 --> 02:11:40,120
Speaker 4: year Like I was there probably about twelve years after

2330
02:11:40,160 --> 02:11:42,440
Speaker 4: the end of the regimes, so that these kids were

2331
02:11:42,440 --> 02:11:45,640
Speaker 4: in their teens, I guess, oh my god. Yeah, I

2332
02:11:45,640 --> 02:11:47,880
Speaker 4: remember teaching little kids to ride bikes who like had

2333
02:11:47,920 --> 02:11:50,040
Speaker 4: never really been able to play outside very much, and

2334
02:11:50,080 --> 02:11:54,040
Speaker 4: it was fucking yeah. Yeah, that shit will fuck you up. Yeah,

2335
02:11:54,040 --> 02:11:55,840
Speaker 4: that's a good museum. I'll see if I can find

2336
02:11:55,840 --> 02:11:58,080
Speaker 4: bradio Is, because if they've maintained one of the old

2337
02:11:58,200 --> 02:12:00,560
Speaker 4: orphanmagic as it was like with the eye and cribs

2338
02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:03,680
Speaker 4: and shit, and they have like projections on the walls

2339
02:12:03,800 --> 02:12:07,400
Speaker 4: the kids rocking and banging their heads someone had filmed. Yeah,

2340
02:12:07,840 --> 02:12:11,640
Speaker 4: that shit is disturbing. Like I uh, I wouldn't read

2341
02:12:11,680 --> 02:12:13,200
Speaker 4: any of those articles before getting to bed.

2342
02:12:13,840 --> 02:12:17,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, this has been it could happen here.

2343
02:12:18,120 --> 02:12:46,240
Speaker 3: All right, bye, this is it could happen here. Executive

2344
02:12:46,280 --> 02:12:49,280
Speaker 3: Disorder our weekly news class covering what's happening in the

2345
02:12:49,320 --> 02:12:51,960
Speaker 3: White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you.

2346
02:12:52,320 --> 02:12:55,360
Speaker 3: I'm Garrison Davis today, joined by Mia Wong, Jamestowte, and

2347
02:12:55,440 --> 02:12:59,360
Speaker 3: Robert Evans. Yes, Taco Trump sweeps the nation, Musk is

2348
02:12:59,360 --> 02:13:02,240
Speaker 3: out with Steve Miller's wife, Liberation Day, tariffs or fought

2349
02:13:02,320 --> 02:13:05,320
Speaker 3: in court. This episode covering the week of May twenty

2350
02:13:05,320 --> 02:13:06,520
Speaker 3: eighth to June four.

2351
02:13:06,920 --> 02:13:09,680
Speaker 2: So much good stuff this week also a terrorist attack

2352
02:13:09,760 --> 02:13:12,560
Speaker 2: not good. But before we get into that, I want

2353
02:13:12,600 --> 02:13:15,000
Speaker 2: to let you guys know I watched the movie Mountainhead,

2354
02:13:15,040 --> 02:13:17,480
Speaker 2: and then I had a dream starring all of you

2355
02:13:17,800 --> 02:13:20,360
Speaker 2: in the movie mountain Head, and it went a lot

2356
02:13:20,440 --> 02:13:23,440
Speaker 2: better since we were just skiing and enjoying the woods.

2357
02:13:23,840 --> 02:13:24,080
Speaker 4: Nice.

2358
02:13:24,080 --> 02:13:28,000
Speaker 2: I didn't know nobody launched an AI that destroyed civilization.

2359
02:13:28,240 --> 02:13:31,200
Speaker 2: Steve Carell wasn't there. Actually, I wouldn't mind hanging out

2360
02:13:31,200 --> 02:13:33,200
Speaker 2: with Steve Carell, but not the Steve Carrell from that

2361
02:13:33,240 --> 02:13:34,800
Speaker 2: movie anyway. Interesting movie.

2362
02:13:35,120 --> 02:13:38,560
Speaker 4: Uh yeah, interesting dream too, bet it sounds of it. Wow.

2363
02:13:38,640 --> 02:13:41,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for that that quick Robert film review.

2364
02:13:41,040 --> 02:13:42,200
Speaker 4: Thanks for sharing, Bud. Yeah.

2365
02:13:42,480 --> 02:13:44,320
Speaker 3: I guess side piece of news that we weren't focusing

2366
02:13:44,320 --> 02:13:46,640
Speaker 3: on like much today, but we will do a piece

2367
02:13:46,640 --> 02:13:48,880
Speaker 3: on in the future is Trump has coud a deal

2368
02:13:48,920 --> 02:13:51,360
Speaker 3: with Palenteer to create an extensive new database that compiles

2369
02:13:51,400 --> 02:13:54,520
Speaker 3: information on everybody in the country. This covers bank number,

2370
02:13:54,560 --> 02:13:57,360
Speaker 3: is student debt, medical claims, disability status. I think this

2371
02:13:57,440 --> 02:14:02,400
Speaker 3: summer myself for a few other people on this episode. Well,

2372
02:14:02,440 --> 02:14:05,720
Speaker 3: we'll work together on an episode just about surveillance, like Flock,

2373
02:14:05,880 --> 02:14:10,560
Speaker 3: Gideon Foundry. These these surveillance systems that are getting like

2374
02:14:10,600 --> 02:14:13,160
Speaker 3: spread all across the country. So we will do a

2375
02:14:13,160 --> 02:14:15,160
Speaker 3: whole episode on that in the future. But let's start

2376
02:14:15,160 --> 02:14:19,560
Speaker 3: with that and then pivots to Robert Evans to discuss terrorism.

2377
02:14:19,920 --> 02:14:25,720
Speaker 2: I hardly know herorism. Someone else should continue the episode now, No, this.

2378
02:14:25,720 --> 02:14:31,280
Speaker 4: Is your this is your going back. Sorry, that was

2379
02:14:31,280 --> 02:14:34,560
Speaker 4: a perfect segue nobody's bailing you out of this ship.

2380
02:14:36,480 --> 02:14:37,280
Speaker 4: We're fine.

2381
02:14:37,480 --> 02:14:39,400
Speaker 2: Oh my god, all right, pull let me pull up

2382
02:14:39,400 --> 02:14:41,360
Speaker 2: the right the proper doc because I did this on

2383
02:14:41,400 --> 02:14:44,520
Speaker 2: my Chescu doc because we recorded both of those episodes today.

2384
02:14:45,280 --> 02:14:47,440
Speaker 4: What a hotwarming day you've had, Robot.

2385
02:14:47,520 --> 02:14:52,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, chi Chescu, a guy fire bombing, a rally

2386
02:14:52,200 --> 02:14:56,720
Speaker 2: in Denver. It's it's all been really good stuff. Yeah,

2387
02:14:57,080 --> 02:14:58,200
Speaker 2: mostly mostly chill.

2388
02:14:58,280 --> 02:14:58,520
Speaker 4: Thanks.

2389
02:14:59,120 --> 02:15:02,960
Speaker 2: So on June second, there was a rally in Boulder,

2390
02:15:03,120 --> 02:15:08,440
Speaker 2: Colorado for a group that was protesting for hostages that

2391
02:15:08,520 --> 02:15:11,160
Speaker 2: were taken by Hamas on October seventh. There's like, I

2392
02:15:11,200 --> 02:15:15,840
Speaker 2: think fifty somewhere around fifty who are still unaccounted for

2393
02:15:15,840 --> 02:15:18,600
Speaker 2: for varying reasons. And that was that was what approach

2394
02:15:18,680 --> 02:15:20,040
Speaker 2: was for. And there was like there was like a

2395
02:15:20,080 --> 02:15:21,880
Speaker 2: gathering and they were supposed to be doing like a run,

2396
02:15:22,120 --> 02:15:24,920
Speaker 2: right in order to raise awareness about the hostages.

2397
02:15:25,000 --> 02:15:25,160
Speaker 4: Right.

2398
02:15:25,200 --> 02:15:29,880
Speaker 2: So that's that's the event that happened on the second

2399
02:15:30,360 --> 02:15:35,440
Speaker 2: and a man approached during that gathering, Mohammed Sabri Soloman,

2400
02:15:36,000 --> 02:15:40,000
Speaker 2: and he started throwing molotov cocktails. Every story I have

2401
02:15:40,080 --> 02:15:43,640
Speaker 2: gives slightly different numbers for how many molotovs he had

2402
02:15:43,720 --> 02:15:46,720
Speaker 2: prepared and how many he had when he was taken.

2403
02:15:47,000 --> 02:15:49,640
Speaker 2: Like an AP news story said that he had sixteen

2404
02:15:49,680 --> 02:15:52,680
Speaker 2: unused molotovs that were covered by law enforcement after the attack,

2405
02:15:53,320 --> 02:15:56,880
Speaker 2: but I think CNN said fourteen, Yeah, fourteen unlit molotovs,

2406
02:15:56,880 --> 02:15:57,920
Speaker 2: So it's kind of clear to be.

2407
02:15:57,880 --> 02:15:58,560
Speaker 4: How many they were.

2408
02:15:58,880 --> 02:16:01,880
Speaker 2: But he threw a number of these at the group

2409
02:16:01,920 --> 02:16:05,880
Speaker 2: of demonstrators. He also had what's described in most of

2410
02:16:05,920 --> 02:16:10,520
Speaker 2: the articles I find as an improvised flamethrower. And so

2411
02:16:10,920 --> 02:16:12,880
Speaker 2: you know, when I heard that, my first question was,

2412
02:16:12,920 --> 02:16:14,600
Speaker 2: like a makeshift flamethrower.

2413
02:16:14,640 --> 02:16:16,440
Speaker 4: Sorry, it was the exact term the police used.

2414
02:16:16,960 --> 02:16:18,640
Speaker 2: And when I first heard that, I was like, well,

2415
02:16:18,760 --> 02:16:20,360
Speaker 2: that could mean a lot of things they could literally

2416
02:16:20,360 --> 02:16:21,760
Speaker 2: just do. Like he had like a cand of like

2417
02:16:21,800 --> 02:16:24,400
Speaker 2: spray that's that's flammable that he like looked a lighter.

2418
02:16:24,360 --> 02:16:25,760
Speaker 4: Up to it have link steeredrow.

2419
02:16:25,920 --> 02:16:29,160
Speaker 2: No, it was apparently like a fertilizer or pesticide sprayer

2420
02:16:29,280 --> 02:16:31,880
Speaker 2: type deal that he had fuel in. Right, So it

2421
02:16:31,920 --> 02:16:34,600
Speaker 2: actually was a makeshift flamethrower he was attempting, but he

2422
02:16:34,640 --> 02:16:38,600
Speaker 2: did not use it on the demonstrators. He did burn

2423
02:16:38,680 --> 02:16:42,480
Speaker 2: himself pretty badly. He had like body armor on that

2424
02:16:42,560 --> 02:16:44,560
Speaker 2: he took off after he like, basically what seems to

2425
02:16:44,600 --> 02:16:46,880
Speaker 2: have happened is he throws something like half a dozen

2426
02:16:46,959 --> 02:16:51,400
Speaker 2: firebombs at this crowd, and he injures a number of people,

2427
02:16:51,560 --> 02:16:56,200
Speaker 2: several of them quite severely. There's at least last I checked,

2428
02:16:56,280 --> 02:16:59,200
Speaker 2: six people who are still in the hospital, one in

2429
02:16:59,240 --> 02:17:03,279
Speaker 2: critical condition, although that may have changed since we recorded

2430
02:17:03,280 --> 02:17:05,760
Speaker 2: this podcast. The victims who were wounded range in age

2431
02:17:05,760 --> 02:17:09,880
Speaker 2: from fifty two to eighty eight. And yeah, so he

2432
02:17:10,720 --> 02:17:13,480
Speaker 2: hurts a number of people with these molotops, and then

2433
02:17:13,560 --> 02:17:17,160
Speaker 2: the way he described it, he like felt like he

2434
02:17:17,160 --> 02:17:19,920
Speaker 2: couldn't continue going through with the attack. He had been

2435
02:17:19,959 --> 02:17:23,039
Speaker 2: planning this thing for more than a year, we know,

2436
02:17:23,200 --> 02:17:26,600
Speaker 2: or at least that's what he claimed. And he basically

2437
02:17:26,600 --> 02:17:28,640
Speaker 2: said that, like, yeah, once I actually started it, I

2438
02:17:28,720 --> 02:17:32,160
Speaker 2: found it very difficult to continue. So it seems like

2439
02:17:32,200 --> 02:17:35,360
Speaker 2: he kind of like didn't go as far with this

2440
02:17:35,440 --> 02:17:37,440
Speaker 2: thing as he could have, because it turns out, lighting

2441
02:17:37,480 --> 02:17:40,279
Speaker 2: people on fire, even when you're very angry, is something

2442
02:17:40,320 --> 02:17:42,920
Speaker 2: that most people cannot bring themselves to do past a

2443
02:17:43,040 --> 02:17:47,040
Speaker 2: certain point. He is on video screaming Palestinas free, and

2444
02:17:47,120 --> 02:17:49,600
Speaker 2: he stated to the authorities that when he'd been planning

2445
02:17:49,600 --> 02:17:52,600
Speaker 2: this for a year. His goal was to kill Zionists.

2446
02:17:52,959 --> 02:17:54,600
Speaker 2: So you know, this is very it's very clear, like

2447
02:17:54,680 --> 02:17:58,720
Speaker 2: what this is motivated by, right, Like what his motivation was.

2448
02:17:59,280 --> 02:18:03,280
Speaker 2: His background is interesting. I guess you'd say he and

2449
02:18:03,320 --> 02:18:07,280
Speaker 2: his family come from Egypt, and yeah, he attended like

2450
02:18:07,360 --> 02:18:10,400
Speaker 2: high school in Egypt and later moved to Kuwait. He

2451
02:18:10,480 --> 02:18:12,120
Speaker 2: has a history of like it seems like he kind

2452
02:18:12,160 --> 02:18:16,200
Speaker 2: of got politically active during the Arab Spring. He posted

2453
02:18:16,200 --> 02:18:18,200
Speaker 2: a bunch of pictures of Mohammed Morsey, the leader of

2454
02:18:18,200 --> 02:18:21,240
Speaker 2: the Muslim Brotherhood who served as Egypt's president from twenty

2455
02:18:21,360 --> 02:18:25,640
Speaker 2: twelve to twenty thirteen. He protested against the military coup

2456
02:18:25,760 --> 02:18:30,080
Speaker 2: that removed Morsey from power, and he and his family

2457
02:18:30,440 --> 02:18:33,440
Speaker 2: entered the United States in August of twenty twenty two

2458
02:18:33,520 --> 02:18:37,160
Speaker 2: as a non immigrant visitor, and in twenty twenty three

2459
02:18:37,240 --> 02:18:40,400
Speaker 2: he received a two year work authorization, which expired in March.

2460
02:18:40,800 --> 02:18:42,600
Speaker 2: He had tried to come to the US in two

2461
02:18:42,600 --> 02:18:45,760
Speaker 2: thousand and five. His primary goal in coming here in

2462
02:18:45,800 --> 02:18:49,440
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two was to get his daughter, primarily into

2463
02:18:49,480 --> 02:18:52,119
Speaker 2: a good medical school. He moved there with his wife

2464
02:18:52,160 --> 02:18:55,320
Speaker 2: and his kids. His daughter was on the process of graduating.

2465
02:18:55,360 --> 02:18:57,760
Speaker 2: They had been living in Kuwait, but for a variety

2466
02:18:57,800 --> 02:18:59,720
Speaker 2: of weak reasons, especially the fact that they were not

2467
02:18:59,760 --> 02:19:01,959
Speaker 2: st She was like, I'm not going to be able

2468
02:19:01,959 --> 02:19:04,879
Speaker 2: to go into medicine in Kuwait. His daughter seems to

2469
02:19:04,920 --> 02:19:08,080
Speaker 2: be a very gifted medical student, and so they moved

2470
02:19:08,160 --> 02:19:11,320
Speaker 2: here and she got into a medical school. And in fact,

2471
02:19:11,360 --> 02:19:13,760
Speaker 2: he seems to have waited to carry out his attack

2472
02:19:13,879 --> 02:19:17,880
Speaker 2: until her graduation, like he wanted her to be started

2473
02:19:17,920 --> 02:19:20,320
Speaker 2: on her path to becoming a doctor before he carried

2474
02:19:20,360 --> 02:19:22,400
Speaker 2: out this attack. I think, both in the hope that

2475
02:19:22,480 --> 02:19:25,480
Speaker 2: it would protect her and she wouldn't get forced out

2476
02:19:25,520 --> 02:19:28,280
Speaker 2: of the country, which we'll talk about in a little bit,

2477
02:19:28,560 --> 02:19:30,120
Speaker 2: and I think probably just because easier to dad and

2478
02:19:30,120 --> 02:19:32,879
Speaker 2: he wanted to see her graduate, right. But then he

2479
02:19:32,920 --> 02:19:35,360
Speaker 2: carries out this attack. His family does not seem to

2480
02:19:35,360 --> 02:19:38,119
Speaker 2: have known. He basically left some messages for them as

2481
02:19:38,160 --> 02:19:41,160
Speaker 2: he left to carry it out. His wife took his

2482
02:19:41,360 --> 02:19:44,800
Speaker 2: phone into the authorities, which I read as her being like,

2483
02:19:45,360 --> 02:19:47,880
Speaker 2: I'm at this point trying to do whatever I can

2484
02:19:48,000 --> 02:19:51,240
Speaker 2: to make the government less likely to prosecute the rest

2485
02:19:51,280 --> 02:19:54,960
Speaker 2: of my family. Like he's a writer, right, Like he

2486
02:19:55,240 --> 02:19:57,800
Speaker 2: like like I can't be concerned about him. Right, I've

2487
02:19:57,840 --> 02:19:58,879
Speaker 2: got kids, you know.

2488
02:19:59,480 --> 02:20:02,600
Speaker 4: Like potential trying to stop anything else happening. If he

2489
02:20:02,720 --> 02:20:04,640
Speaker 4: was you know, like maybe he had other people who'd

2490
02:20:04,680 --> 02:20:06,360
Speaker 4: been playing this with who are planning other things.

2491
02:20:06,520 --> 02:20:08,760
Speaker 2: Right, she doesn't know did he build a bomb?

2492
02:20:08,879 --> 02:20:10,280
Speaker 4: Right, she has no idea. Yeah.

2493
02:20:10,320 --> 02:20:12,640
Speaker 2: I should also note here that when he was planning

2494
02:20:12,720 --> 02:20:15,480
Speaker 2: this attack, he initially planned to do a shooting. He

2495
02:20:15,520 --> 02:20:17,840
Speaker 2: took a concealed carry class, or at least he told

2496
02:20:17,879 --> 02:20:19,760
Speaker 2: investigators he took a concealed carry class.

2497
02:20:19,800 --> 02:20:19,879
Speaker 3: Right.

2498
02:20:19,920 --> 02:20:21,200
Speaker 4: He could be lying about some of this. This is

2499
02:20:21,200 --> 02:20:22,199
Speaker 4: what the police are reported.

2500
02:20:22,280 --> 02:20:24,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he took a concealed carry class. But he

2501
02:20:24,840 --> 02:20:27,160
Speaker 2: was not able to buy a gun. The AP News

2502
02:20:27,240 --> 02:20:30,320
Speaker 2: article says was denied because he's not a legal US citizen.

2503
02:20:30,760 --> 02:20:32,400
Speaker 2: You don't have to be a citizen to buy a gun. Yeah,

2504
02:20:32,440 --> 02:20:34,039
Speaker 2: that's not correct, But you do have to be in

2505
02:20:34,080 --> 02:20:36,120
Speaker 2: the country legally, right, Like you do not have to

2506
02:20:36,120 --> 02:20:38,120
Speaker 2: be a citizen to purchase guns in this country, but

2507
02:20:38,200 --> 02:20:39,600
Speaker 2: you do have to be illegal.

2508
02:20:39,879 --> 02:20:41,680
Speaker 4: I think you have to be a resident, like certain

2509
02:20:41,800 --> 02:20:44,720
Speaker 4: visa categories. There's a number of ways to get a gun.

2510
02:20:44,720 --> 02:20:47,000
Speaker 2: Whim not a citizen, but he was not able to yeah,

2511
02:20:47,040 --> 02:20:50,080
Speaker 2: and thank goodness, right, Like it's horrifying, Like obviously burning

2512
02:20:50,080 --> 02:20:53,040
Speaker 2: people is horrifying. Like the injuries that these people suffered

2513
02:20:53,040 --> 02:20:56,400
Speaker 2: are pretty are deeply like there's no pleasant burn injury.

2514
02:20:56,840 --> 02:20:57,600
Speaker 4: But people would have.

2515
02:20:57,640 --> 02:21:00,320
Speaker 2: Just died if he'd shot them, right, Like, Yeah, that's

2516
02:21:00,440 --> 02:21:01,760
Speaker 2: just the reality of the situation.

2517
02:21:02,160 --> 02:21:04,680
Speaker 4: That's already happened in Boulder once, like Bulder had a

2518
02:21:04,720 --> 02:21:07,040
Speaker 4: mass shooting at a supermarket right now, so long ago.

2519
02:21:07,280 --> 02:21:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the that's that's the bones of what

2520
02:21:10,080 --> 02:21:11,160
Speaker 2: happened here now.

2521
02:21:11,200 --> 02:21:14,480
Speaker 3: I mean, having this like less than a week after

2522
02:21:14,680 --> 02:21:17,959
Speaker 3: the Embassy shooting is pretty notable.

2523
02:21:17,600 --> 02:21:18,000
Speaker 4: Not great.

2524
02:21:18,480 --> 02:21:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, speaks to the contagion way these kinds of things spread.

2525
02:21:22,040 --> 02:21:22,840
Speaker 4: Right exactly.

2526
02:21:22,920 --> 02:21:25,160
Speaker 3: Mean las last week we talked about how like this

2527
02:21:25,320 --> 02:21:29,720
Speaker 3: displays into like media that only benefits the actions at

2528
02:21:29,800 --> 02:21:32,560
Speaker 3: Israel's continuing to take and how much a media attention

2529
02:21:32,879 --> 02:21:35,400
Speaker 3: was going towards the shooting and like the immediate aftermath.

2530
02:21:35,720 --> 02:21:37,960
Speaker 3: And something that I found a little bit interesting is

2531
02:21:38,200 --> 02:21:42,000
Speaker 3: how fast that story kind of went away, which which

2532
02:21:42,080 --> 02:21:45,000
Speaker 3: I wasn't really expecting. I thought it would it would

2533
02:21:45,240 --> 02:21:47,840
Speaker 3: they would be you know, relevant for a little bit longer.

2534
02:21:47,879 --> 02:21:49,800
Speaker 3: People try to keep it relevant for a little bit longer.

2535
02:21:49,959 --> 02:21:51,440
Speaker 3: I think part of the reason why maybe it went

2536
02:21:51,440 --> 02:21:54,000
Speaker 3: away faster than what we thought is so that it

2537
02:21:54,040 --> 02:21:57,760
Speaker 3: would not encourage like copycat attacks, and that still seems

2538
02:21:57,760 --> 02:21:59,920
Speaker 3: to happen to a degree. And I mean it's sounds

2539
02:21:59,920 --> 02:22:02,440
Speaker 3: like this guy was planning something for a little bit long, yess.

2540
02:22:02,600 --> 02:22:05,560
Speaker 3: But certainly having that other shooting in a close time

2541
02:22:05,600 --> 02:22:07,360
Speaker 3: proximity is notable.

2542
02:22:07,879 --> 02:22:11,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the unfortunate reality is that, like, I'm

2543
02:22:11,120 --> 02:22:14,160
Speaker 2: sure there's someone else, multiple other people who have been

2544
02:22:14,160 --> 02:22:17,600
Speaker 2: planning for different periods of time, other kinds of attacks,

2545
02:22:17,680 --> 02:22:20,160
Speaker 2: and we will continue to see stuff like this happen.

2546
02:22:20,280 --> 02:22:20,480
Speaker 4: Right.

2547
02:22:20,959 --> 02:22:25,160
Speaker 2: Some of this is when something as terrible as the

2548
02:22:25,240 --> 02:22:27,880
Speaker 2: jatocide happening in Gaza is happening on a small screen

2549
02:22:27,920 --> 02:22:30,080
Speaker 2: in front of your face, and you are consuming hours

2550
02:22:30,120 --> 02:22:33,440
Speaker 2: of the curated worst footage of it every day. People

2551
02:22:33,520 --> 02:22:36,080
Speaker 2: are going to react, and they're not always going to

2552
02:22:36,080 --> 02:22:40,080
Speaker 2: react in the most like thoughtful way. Sometimes they're going

2553
02:22:40,120 --> 02:22:42,800
Speaker 2: to make a bunch of fucking fire bombs and attack

2554
02:22:42,879 --> 02:22:45,720
Speaker 2: a group of people who there's not really any argument

2555
02:22:45,760 --> 02:22:47,760
Speaker 2: that these particular groups of people.

2556
02:22:47,640 --> 02:22:51,400
Speaker 4: Had any at any influence, any any material consequence.

2557
02:22:50,959 --> 02:22:53,080
Speaker 2: Any power in the Israeli government, but.

2558
02:22:54,040 --> 02:22:55,560
Speaker 4: One of them's a Holocaust survivor, and.

2559
02:22:55,720 --> 02:22:58,600
Speaker 2: People are going to take irrational, terrible action that's just

2560
02:22:58,640 --> 02:23:00,680
Speaker 2: going to happen, you know, breaks people.

2561
02:23:00,800 --> 02:23:05,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, kind of prolonged vicarious trauma especially is not good

2562
02:23:05,120 --> 02:23:05,400
Speaker 4: for you.

2563
02:23:05,560 --> 02:23:07,200
Speaker 3: I think a lot of this loan Wolf attack is

2564
02:23:07,280 --> 02:23:11,560
Speaker 3: almost a way that people like cope with themselves after

2565
02:23:11,879 --> 02:23:14,560
Speaker 3: watching this thing unfold on your screen, right, and then

2566
02:23:14,680 --> 02:23:16,080
Speaker 3: as a response.

2567
02:23:15,720 --> 02:23:17,840
Speaker 2: I have to do something, is what he said, right, Like,

2568
02:23:17,879 --> 02:23:19,119
Speaker 2: I'm never gonna be able to live with myself.

2569
02:23:19,160 --> 02:23:20,160
Speaker 4: I do something.

2570
02:23:20,280 --> 02:23:23,000
Speaker 3: And then as a response, you use the violence of

2571
02:23:23,000 --> 02:23:24,800
Speaker 3: a gun to carve your name into history.

2572
02:23:25,400 --> 02:23:29,240
Speaker 4: And yeah, as someone who did something, I did something. Yeah,

2573
02:23:29,320 --> 02:23:33,000
Speaker 4: this is this is something and you know it's.

2574
02:23:32,959 --> 02:23:35,680
Speaker 2: It's it's it's bad, like it just has it's just

2575
02:23:35,800 --> 02:23:37,800
Speaker 2: some number of people. This is how they're they're going

2576
02:23:37,879 --> 02:23:41,400
Speaker 2: to react, and to an extent I don't know, I

2577
02:23:41,440 --> 02:23:44,120
Speaker 2: don't know how you seek to stop this. You know,

2578
02:23:44,240 --> 02:23:47,200
Speaker 2: the authorities have have like confirmed this guy was not

2579
02:23:47,200 --> 02:23:50,760
Speaker 2: on anyone's watch list. I'm sure neither will the next

2580
02:23:50,800 --> 02:23:54,120
Speaker 2: guy or gal who does something right like this is

2581
02:23:54,120 --> 02:23:56,480
Speaker 2: the world quite quite frankly, this is in part the

2582
02:23:56,480 --> 02:23:59,240
Speaker 2: world the Internet has made, right, Yeah, not that, not

2583
02:23:59,320 --> 02:24:01,680
Speaker 2: that it would be good if horrifying footage of the

2584
02:24:01,720 --> 02:24:05,440
Speaker 2: genocide and Gaza wasn't getting out to people. But like,

2585
02:24:05,480 --> 02:24:08,119
Speaker 2: this isn't the first time we have watched a series

2586
02:24:08,160 --> 02:24:12,560
Speaker 2: of attacks carried out and copy attacks and copycat attacks

2587
02:24:12,600 --> 02:24:15,560
Speaker 2: like carried out and spread as a result of things

2588
02:24:15,560 --> 02:24:18,160
Speaker 2: that are spreading in digital media, right, Like this is

2589
02:24:18,160 --> 02:24:20,720
Speaker 2: a This is like a thing that's happened over and

2590
02:24:20,800 --> 02:24:23,560
Speaker 2: over again. This is just kind of how the internet

2591
02:24:23,680 --> 02:24:25,480
Speaker 2: and radical violence works well.

2592
02:24:25,480 --> 02:24:26,640
Speaker 1: And it's one of those things where like, you know,

2593
02:24:26,680 --> 02:24:28,280
Speaker 1: there is a clear way to end the violence, which

2594
02:24:28,320 --> 02:24:30,199
Speaker 1: is to end the genocide, which is the other benefit

2595
02:24:30,240 --> 02:24:33,119
Speaker 1: of ending the genocide. But these people have no interest

2596
02:24:33,160 --> 02:24:33,400
Speaker 1: in that.

2597
02:24:33,520 --> 02:24:35,400
Speaker 2: No, these people, and I don't I don't know how

2598
02:24:35,440 --> 02:24:39,000
Speaker 2: to write like like like I don't like if you're asking, like, well,

2599
02:24:39,000 --> 02:24:40,640
Speaker 2: how do we end the genocide? Where like I guess

2600
02:24:40,720 --> 02:24:43,920
Speaker 2: you could get the entire international community to stop trading

2601
02:24:44,000 --> 02:24:46,680
Speaker 2: or selling weapons to Israel and also blockade the country,

2602
02:24:46,680 --> 02:24:47,920
Speaker 2: but like, well, then how do we do that?

2603
02:24:47,959 --> 02:24:50,440
Speaker 4: They're not god a right, Like I can't I can't

2604
02:24:50,440 --> 02:24:50,840
Speaker 4: make them.

2605
02:24:50,879 --> 02:24:54,640
Speaker 2: I can't make the US shoot down Israeli missiles or aircraft,

2606
02:24:54,680 --> 02:24:56,560
Speaker 2: Like I don't have the ability to like yell our

2607
02:24:56,600 --> 02:24:57,680
Speaker 2: government into doing that.

2608
02:24:58,560 --> 02:25:01,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's how do you write as a person potentially

2609
02:25:01,200 --> 02:25:04,720
Speaker 4: a person who's isolating. I don't know, man, If this

2610
02:25:04,760 --> 02:25:08,240
Speaker 4: person isn't part of a community, right, I hasn't found community?

2611
02:25:08,320 --> 02:25:10,400
Speaker 4: Like processing that trauma and feeling like you have to

2612
02:25:10,480 --> 02:25:13,039
Speaker 4: do something, some people's brains will break in a way

2613
02:25:13,080 --> 02:25:16,400
Speaker 4: that leads to violence. Yeah, I want to talk about

2614
02:25:16,760 --> 02:25:20,920
Speaker 4: state violence now, if that's okay, because I think, look,

2615
02:25:21,080 --> 02:25:23,039
Speaker 4: what he did was fucked up and wrong, and no

2616
02:25:23,040 --> 02:25:25,600
Speaker 4: one should obviously be firebombing Holocaust survival. I think that's

2617
02:25:25,600 --> 02:25:28,560
Speaker 4: something we can agree on. What has happened to his

2618
02:25:28,640 --> 02:25:32,360
Speaker 4: family is also wrong, right, like it you shouldn't be

2619
02:25:32,360 --> 02:25:34,400
Speaker 4: punished for being related to someone who did a bad thing.

2620
02:25:34,520 --> 02:25:37,240
Speaker 4: And oh god, and this is yeah, this is also horrifying. Yeah.

2621
02:25:37,400 --> 02:25:41,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, the whole thing is a story of like collateral damage.

2622
02:25:41,480 --> 02:25:45,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the White House on four twelve PM on

2623
02:25:45,560 --> 02:25:50,959
Speaker 4: the third of June, tweeted zeated just In Colon the

2624
02:25:51,000 --> 02:25:54,039
Speaker 4: wife and five children of illegal alien Mohammed Solomon, the

2625
02:25:54,080 --> 02:25:56,880
Speaker 4: suspect in the anti Semitic fire bombing of Jewish Americans

2626
02:25:57,200 --> 02:26:01,760
Speaker 4: have been captured, captured and are now in ice custody

2627
02:26:01,800 --> 02:26:05,440
Speaker 4: for expedited removal. Next part is in block capitals. They

2628
02:26:05,440 --> 02:26:09,000
Speaker 4: could be deported as early as tonight. This is heartbreaking,

2629
02:26:09,080 --> 02:26:13,520
Speaker 4: right again, Like we've talked about habeas before, but the

2630
02:26:13,600 --> 02:26:17,880
Speaker 4: foundation of everything that legal systems based on English common

2631
02:26:18,000 --> 02:26:20,600
Speaker 4: law hold is you have to have evidence that the

2632
02:26:20,640 --> 02:26:22,720
Speaker 4: person did something wrong, not that they're related to the

2633
02:26:22,760 --> 02:26:25,720
Speaker 4: person who did something wrong. Right. You know, Robert and

2634
02:26:25,800 --> 02:26:28,920
Speaker 4: I are both intimately familiar at least you know. I've

2635
02:26:29,000 --> 02:26:32,320
Speaker 4: received calls from young people in Burma who we've interviewed,

2636
02:26:32,320 --> 02:26:36,200
Speaker 4: whose families have been captured because of their participation in

2637
02:26:36,200 --> 02:26:38,080
Speaker 4: the revolution, and like, yeah, this is not a part

2638
02:26:38,120 --> 02:26:39,879
Speaker 4: of you. I should be going down. I want to

2639
02:26:39,920 --> 02:26:44,080
Speaker 4: explain very briefly what expedited removal is, because I have

2640
02:26:44,160 --> 02:26:46,720
Speaker 4: seen some shit that suggests maybe folks don't understand it.

2641
02:26:46,760 --> 02:26:49,880
Speaker 4: That's fine, It's complicated. So expetitive removal is supposed to

2642
02:26:49,879 --> 02:26:52,320
Speaker 4: be reserved for people who arrive at a land border

2643
02:26:52,520 --> 02:26:57,440
Speaker 4: port of entry or EWI. EWIE is an acronym entering

2644
02:26:57,520 --> 02:27:01,000
Speaker 4: without inspection that means entering between imports of entry right

2645
02:27:01,800 --> 02:27:05,000
Speaker 4: over the wall. Under the wall over the beach. What

2646
02:27:05,160 --> 02:27:07,920
Speaker 4: have you? Right entering without going through a port of

2647
02:27:08,080 --> 02:27:10,240
Speaker 4: entry and they're supposed to have been here for less

2648
02:27:10,240 --> 02:27:13,960
Speaker 4: than two years. The Trump administration has been massively expanding

2649
02:27:13,959 --> 02:27:18,160
Speaker 4: the use of expected to removal recently. Why they're doing

2650
02:27:18,200 --> 02:27:20,520
Speaker 4: this is because in an expected to removal proceeding, lower

2651
02:27:20,600 --> 02:27:24,120
Speaker 4: level immigration officials can remove people without them seeing a judge.

2652
02:27:24,720 --> 02:27:28,600
Speaker 4: Those people can still make a credible fear claim, which

2653
02:27:28,600 --> 02:27:30,840
Speaker 4: has to be assessed by an asylum officer and then

2654
02:27:30,879 --> 02:27:34,000
Speaker 4: approved by a judge. But this is a lot harder

2655
02:27:34,120 --> 02:27:36,520
Speaker 4: right than then going through the asylum process, and they

2656
02:27:36,520 --> 02:27:40,000
Speaker 4: have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. I guess I think

2657
02:27:40,040 --> 02:27:42,040
Speaker 4: it's a reasonable fear frame. I think incredible fear is

2658
02:27:42,040 --> 02:27:44,880
Speaker 4: a highest standard for another removal praceeding that they are

2659
02:27:44,959 --> 02:27:46,840
Speaker 4: likely to be tortured by the government or with the

2660
02:27:46,840 --> 02:27:49,920
Speaker 4: acquiescence of their government if they're sent home. Right, its

2661
02:27:50,440 --> 02:27:52,879
Speaker 4: use had previously peaked with one hundred and ninety seven

2662
02:27:52,959 --> 02:27:55,760
Speaker 4: cases in twenty thirteen that was under a Bama right

2663
02:27:56,400 --> 02:27:59,280
Speaker 4: and surprisingly didn't see people writing about it. Then it

2664
02:27:59,360 --> 02:28:03,119
Speaker 4: was used even more extensively by the Biden administration, especially

2665
02:28:03,320 --> 02:28:07,720
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty four, with Biden passed his asylum ban

2666
02:28:08,040 --> 02:28:11,680
Speaker 4: right by executive order. The first Trump administration did use it.

2667
02:28:11,760 --> 02:28:14,480
Speaker 4: They used it in a more broad range of cases,

2668
02:28:14,560 --> 02:28:17,080
Speaker 4: but they didn't use it in as many cases as

2669
02:28:17,160 --> 02:28:21,400
Speaker 4: either the Obama or the Biden administration. Right expertited removal

2670
02:28:21,480 --> 02:28:25,240
Speaker 4: is supposed to be for the most serious cases, for

2671
02:28:25,879 --> 02:28:29,680
Speaker 4: things where the person is a threat or a danger,

2672
02:28:29,800 --> 02:28:31,560
Speaker 4: or for other reasons need to be removed quickly. It

2673
02:28:31,640 --> 02:28:34,720
Speaker 4: was never designed. It was passed in I think in

2674
02:28:34,760 --> 02:28:37,840
Speaker 4: the early two thousands to first decade of this century.

2675
02:28:37,920 --> 02:28:42,960
Speaker 4: It was never supposed to be used like this, right, Robert,

2676
02:28:43,000 --> 02:28:44,840
Speaker 4: you mentioned these people had entered the United States in

2677
02:28:44,840 --> 02:28:46,160
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, I think.

2678
02:28:46,480 --> 02:28:49,880
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty two, and then he got a visa two

2679
02:28:49,959 --> 02:28:52,039
Speaker 2: year visa to work. In twenty twenty three, the entered

2680
02:28:52,120 --> 02:28:53,280
Speaker 2: on a tourist visa.

2681
02:28:53,360 --> 02:28:56,960
Speaker 4: Essentially, Yeah, they're not within that two year window. Right

2682
02:28:57,600 --> 02:29:00,640
Speaker 4: to the extent that that matters, I don't know. So

2683
02:29:00,680 --> 02:29:04,160
Speaker 4: they will now, having done nothing wrong in the case

2684
02:29:04,160 --> 02:29:06,560
Speaker 4: of his wife, having attempted to cooperate with law enforcement

2685
02:29:06,640 --> 02:29:09,840
Speaker 4: to stop her husband or anyone with him hurting anyone else,

2686
02:29:10,360 --> 02:29:13,880
Speaker 4: they will be detained in the nice detention center. They

2687
02:29:13,920 --> 02:29:16,320
Speaker 4: will have to make a claim of credible fear right.

2688
02:29:16,400 --> 02:29:18,840
Speaker 4: They will have to say it is dangerous for you

2689
02:29:18,920 --> 02:29:21,400
Speaker 4: to send us back. I presume that citizenship is Egyptian,

2690
02:29:21,440 --> 02:29:23,360
Speaker 4: so I presume they will be sent there. That's a

2691
02:29:23,480 --> 02:29:27,280
Speaker 4: very high hurdle for them to clear. And I mean,

2692
02:29:27,320 --> 02:29:29,640
Speaker 4: I'm sure that there are national immigration nonprofits who are

2693
02:29:29,680 --> 02:29:32,480
Speaker 4: willing to fight their case because the abuse of expert

2694
02:29:32,560 --> 02:29:35,760
Speaker 4: to removal in the last two years, to be very clear,

2695
02:29:36,160 --> 02:29:42,000
Speaker 4: by dedministration as well, has seriously undermined the due process

2696
02:29:42,080 --> 02:29:45,400
Speaker 4: rights of migrants. But this is still a further step,

2697
02:29:45,560 --> 02:29:49,120
Speaker 4: at a significant step in removing those So I'm going

2698
02:29:49,120 --> 02:29:50,680
Speaker 4: to follow this case. I'm sure i'll update you on

2699
02:29:50,720 --> 02:29:52,880
Speaker 4: it next week. I also just want to note that

2700
02:29:53,560 --> 02:29:56,640
Speaker 4: this has dominated a news cycle. Yesterday, twenty seven people

2701
02:29:56,680 --> 02:30:00,160
Speaker 4: were killed in Gaza attempting to obtain humanitarian aid. The

2702
02:30:00,240 --> 02:30:04,160
Speaker 4: IDF is still denying that. I don't really care that

2703
02:30:04,280 --> 02:30:07,360
Speaker 4: the Red Cross, as well as health authorities in gard

2704
02:30:07,360 --> 02:30:09,760
Speaker 4: they have confound that twenty seven people were killed en

2705
02:30:09,879 --> 02:30:13,240
Speaker 4: route to one of the humanitarians or the humanitarian aid

2706
02:30:13,240 --> 02:30:15,680
Speaker 4: distribution point where they've concentrated it. In the sudden end

2707
02:30:15,680 --> 02:30:18,040
Speaker 4: of the Guard the Trip. We will have an episode

2708
02:30:18,120 --> 02:30:21,160
Speaker 4: on Palestine next week. I don't want one person's kind

2709
02:30:21,200 --> 02:30:24,720
Speaker 4: of stupid action to overshadow the killing of many more

2710
02:30:24,760 --> 02:30:27,040
Speaker 4: people and that tragic loss of life. Right so, I

2711
02:30:27,080 --> 02:30:28,640
Speaker 4: don't think that we won't be covering that. We will.

2712
02:30:29,040 --> 02:30:32,800
Speaker 4: What we will also be doing is pivoting to advertisements

2713
02:30:32,879 --> 02:30:33,520
Speaker 4: right now.

2714
02:30:33,480 --> 02:30:49,320
Speaker 9: That's right, baby, Let me let me maybe get up

2715
02:30:49,360 --> 02:30:50,120
Speaker 9: my guacamole.

2716
02:30:50,760 --> 02:30:52,040
Speaker 4: Fucking algorithms of it?

2717
02:30:53,520 --> 02:30:55,119
Speaker 1: How could it becomes a joker?

2718
02:30:57,000 --> 02:30:59,200
Speaker 4: Is that the pivot to the Yeah?

2719
02:30:59,280 --> 02:31:04,119
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, oh god, okay, let's let's talk about

2720
02:31:04,240 --> 02:31:05,040
Speaker 1: Taco Trump.

2721
02:31:05,120 --> 02:31:10,640
Speaker 3: Who oh yeah, finally, finally, get out your hot, get

2722
02:31:10,680 --> 02:31:13,760
Speaker 3: out your block, let's go Taco Trump party.

2723
02:31:14,480 --> 02:31:17,120
Speaker 4: If you're doing getting full DNC style, pick a slightly

2724
02:31:17,200 --> 02:31:22,480
Speaker 4: racist Mexican costume or somethink I guess, like so many many.

2725
02:31:22,360 --> 02:31:26,160
Speaker 1: Years ago, I was, I was a professional StarCraft two fan,

2726
02:31:26,840 --> 02:31:29,119
Speaker 1: and this meant that I was exposed a gunguan style

2727
02:31:29,320 --> 02:31:33,039
Speaker 1: a full two weeks before everyone else. And this was

2728
02:31:33,080 --> 02:31:36,560
Speaker 1: my experience with Taco because I started hearing this from

2729
02:31:36,560 --> 02:31:39,680
Speaker 1: like financial news outlets, and like my friend Vicky was

2730
02:31:39,720 --> 02:31:41,640
Speaker 1: sending me things. They're like, yeah, they came up with

2731
02:31:41,680 --> 02:31:43,879
Speaker 1: this thing, they're calling it taco, and then like four

2732
02:31:43,959 --> 02:31:46,440
Speaker 1: days later, all of the like regular news outlet's caught

2733
02:31:46,480 --> 02:31:48,040
Speaker 1: up to it. And I didn't want to say ship

2734
02:31:48,080 --> 02:31:48,520
Speaker 1: in the nation.

2735
02:31:48,959 --> 02:31:50,920
Speaker 4: May I liked it before it was cool.

2736
02:31:51,560 --> 02:31:55,640
Speaker 1: So Taco is this like unbelievable delusion that the finance

2737
02:31:55,720 --> 02:31:59,480
Speaker 1: people have had to like like program into their brains

2738
02:31:59,480 --> 02:32:03,000
Speaker 1: in order to like keep themselves from believing their own

2739
02:32:03,040 --> 02:32:07,080
Speaker 1: eyes about what's happening with the economy. So Taco stands

2740
02:32:07,120 --> 02:32:10,320
Speaker 1: for Trump always chickens out. And it's these people's belief

2741
02:32:10,400 --> 02:32:12,959
Speaker 1: that Trump will like always inevitably in the end back.

2742
02:32:12,840 --> 02:32:13,600
Speaker 4: Down from the terrace.

2743
02:32:13,600 --> 02:32:15,680
Speaker 1: And I've been seeing this a lot, right, Like I'm

2744
02:32:15,720 --> 02:32:19,000
Speaker 1: seeing this some people who are like who's analysis I respect?

2745
02:32:19,360 --> 02:32:21,400
Speaker 1: Who are talking about how like, yeah, the structural conditions

2746
02:32:21,440 --> 02:32:23,200
Speaker 1: of the economy are saus the Trump will always be

2747
02:32:23,200 --> 02:32:26,120
Speaker 1: forced to like roll the terariffs back. And then it's like, okay,

2748
02:32:26,520 --> 02:32:29,440
Speaker 1: like the fifty percent deal tariff, what did you affect

2749
02:32:29,480 --> 02:32:30,600
Speaker 1: like today?

2750
02:32:30,840 --> 02:32:34,720
Speaker 3: Right Like I I don't know, I'm gonna get some kumi. Oh,

2751
02:32:34,720 --> 02:32:37,400
Speaker 3: I'm gonna get some coriander. We're gonna mix that up.

2752
02:32:38,560 --> 02:32:41,680
Speaker 1: Oh god, Yo, this is a financial thing, right, This

2753
02:32:41,760 --> 02:32:43,959
Speaker 1: is the thing that like all the day traders like

2754
02:32:44,080 --> 02:32:45,960
Speaker 1: have to convince themselves in order to keep the stock

2755
02:32:46,000 --> 02:32:46,600
Speaker 1: marketing going.

2756
02:32:46,720 --> 02:32:49,000
Speaker 4: Yeah that like, no, no, no, it's gonna be fine.

2757
02:32:49,280 --> 02:32:51,680
Speaker 3: This is a magic spell that's being like waved over

2758
02:32:51,720 --> 02:32:53,879
Speaker 3: the economy to keep it kind of holding together.

2759
02:32:53,959 --> 02:32:56,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like, whooh, it's gonna be fine. Ignore the

2760
02:32:56,800 --> 02:32:59,560
Speaker 1: thirty percent tariffs, So all Chinese goods, ignore the terriffs

2761
02:32:59,560 --> 02:33:01,959
Speaker 1: of the Yeah, fifty percent steel turf.

2762
02:33:02,040 --> 02:33:06,320
Speaker 2: Today, you might say, these economists are saying to Reef,

2763
02:33:06,840 --> 02:33:07,600
Speaker 2: we don't like it.

2764
02:33:08,000 --> 02:33:19,840
Speaker 10: Sorry, locking jazz bomb, rocket jazz Bot, Sorry, locking, locking

2765
02:33:20,200 --> 02:33:23,000
Speaker 10: jazz bomb, rocky jazz Bob.

2766
02:33:24,800 --> 02:33:27,080
Speaker 2: God, we had to make up for it. Garrison wouldn't

2767
02:33:27,120 --> 02:33:27,720
Speaker 2: let us last time.

2768
02:33:27,760 --> 02:33:30,320
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I know the royalties are getting

2769
02:33:30,320 --> 02:33:30,680
Speaker 4: too much.

2770
02:33:30,720 --> 02:33:32,800
Speaker 3: I took an entire week's pay cut so that we

2771
02:33:32,840 --> 02:33:34,240
Speaker 3: could pay back the royalty.

2772
02:33:34,640 --> 02:33:37,600
Speaker 2: Now, now, the good news is everybody we did manage

2773
02:33:37,640 --> 02:33:40,600
Speaker 2: to work out a new healthcare plan for everybody. It

2774
02:33:40,720 --> 02:33:42,600
Speaker 2: is the next time you need to go to a doctor,

2775
02:33:42,920 --> 02:33:46,600
Speaker 2: there will be an unmarked car with a loaded thirty

2776
02:33:46,640 --> 02:33:50,360
Speaker 2: eight special in the glove box. So it is a

2777
02:33:50,400 --> 02:33:54,400
Speaker 2: step up from United Healthcare. We we've actually significantly improved things,

2778
02:33:56,760 --> 02:33:57,359
Speaker 2: that's true.

2779
02:33:57,200 --> 02:33:59,360
Speaker 4: And I'm actually taking to pay for a year so

2780
02:33:59,400 --> 02:34:01,720
Speaker 4: we can do a a white riot, which is just

2781
02:34:01,760 --> 02:34:04,240
Speaker 4: white genocide. It's about the genocide of the of the

2782
02:34:04,280 --> 02:34:05,160
Speaker 4: ball people.

2783
02:34:05,920 --> 02:34:09,360
Speaker 1: Real and so okay, speaking of United Health one of

2784
02:34:09,440 --> 02:34:11,400
Speaker 1: these tarriffs that all these people have convinced themselves is

2785
02:34:11,480 --> 02:34:13,800
Speaker 1: not going to happen is the pharmaceutical tariffs, which are

2786
02:34:13,879 --> 02:34:18,440
Speaker 1: still like coming, right. But what sort of happened with

2787
02:34:18,560 --> 02:34:21,720
Speaker 1: this taco shit, right is the Democrats were like, Okay,

2788
02:34:22,080 --> 02:34:26,400
Speaker 1: I have found a way to criticize Trump.

2789
02:34:26,120 --> 02:34:30,080
Speaker 4: That is racist. They're all just calling him like that.

2790
02:34:30,200 --> 02:34:33,160
Speaker 3: Also does it actually critique his policies like they're they're

2791
02:34:33,200 --> 02:34:35,240
Speaker 3: calling him taco and Trump in relation to like the

2792
02:34:35,280 --> 02:34:36,640
Speaker 3: negotiations with Iran.

2793
02:34:37,000 --> 02:34:39,039
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, shit that he should chicken out of it.

2794
02:34:39,040 --> 02:34:40,440
Speaker 4: It's good if he doesn't do it.

2795
02:34:40,680 --> 02:34:44,240
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Like I'm watching them do like like fucking

2796
02:34:44,320 --> 02:34:47,160
Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer is out here tweeting about how Biden deported

2797
02:34:47,200 --> 02:34:49,200
Speaker 1: more people than Trump did, and like the thing that

2798
02:34:49,240 --> 02:34:52,480
Speaker 1: this reminds me of the most is like the Chavez

2799
02:34:52,520 --> 02:34:56,160
Speaker 1: era of Venezuelan opposition, where every single year they would

2800
02:34:56,160 --> 02:34:58,680
Speaker 1: haul some dipshit out and their platform was like I'm

2801
02:34:58,680 --> 02:35:01,680
Speaker 1: gonna do Travizel better than and every single year they

2802
02:35:01,680 --> 02:35:04,480
Speaker 1: would lose by forty points. And it's like the Democrats

2803
02:35:04,520 --> 02:35:07,920
Speaker 1: are like those guys, those people are real fucking winners.

2804
02:35:08,040 --> 02:35:11,320
Speaker 1: We're going to adopt every single one of his platforms

2805
02:35:11,360 --> 02:35:13,280
Speaker 1: and then we're gonna run on he's not doing it

2806
02:35:13,320 --> 02:35:15,600
Speaker 1: well enough, and then we're gonna get fucking annihilated in

2807
02:35:15,640 --> 02:35:18,680
Speaker 1: every single election until like democratic process itself simply ceases

2808
02:35:18,720 --> 02:35:20,560
Speaker 1: to exist and this will be good.

2809
02:35:20,360 --> 02:35:25,760
Speaker 4: For us somehow. This is just it's pure cope.

2810
02:35:25,840 --> 02:35:29,400
Speaker 1: Like the entire our entire economy is being supported by

2811
02:35:29,520 --> 02:35:32,080
Speaker 1: the just collective delusion that these people have built. But

2812
02:35:32,160 --> 02:35:34,240
Speaker 1: they fucked up right. And the thing about Taco and

2813
02:35:34,240 --> 02:35:35,920
Speaker 1: think I remember from like the first time I heard

2814
02:35:35,920 --> 02:35:39,119
Speaker 1: about this, it was like, if this gets out, these

2815
02:35:39,160 --> 02:35:41,800
Speaker 1: people are fucked because Trump is going to see this

2816
02:35:42,120 --> 02:35:44,840
Speaker 1: and it is going to piss him off and he's

2817
02:35:44,879 --> 02:35:47,160
Speaker 1: going to like like now that it's like the democratic thing,

2818
02:35:47,160 --> 02:35:48,600
Speaker 1: it's like no, no, no, Like the next the next

2819
02:35:48,640 --> 02:35:51,760
Speaker 1: series of terrorists is scheduled to come off. Is I'm

2820
02:35:51,760 --> 02:35:53,920
Speaker 1: pretty sure that China won in like the beginning of

2821
02:35:53,959 --> 02:35:55,440
Speaker 1: July could have.

2822
02:35:55,480 --> 02:35:56,880
Speaker 4: The math wrong.

2823
02:35:56,920 --> 02:35:58,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, I hate math, I prob but I'm

2824
02:35:58,160 --> 02:35:59,200
Speaker 1: pretty sure that's the next one.

2825
02:35:59,560 --> 02:36:01,360
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's this is the thing that I'm

2826
02:36:01,400 --> 02:36:03,760
Speaker 3: still like questioning about, and like we've talked talk abouts before,

2827
02:36:03,879 --> 02:36:06,480
Speaker 3: is like one of those thirty d deadlines for tariffs

2828
02:36:06,480 --> 02:36:10,160
Speaker 3: on Canada and Mexico expired. Yeah, he just forgot about

2829
02:36:10,160 --> 02:36:12,280
Speaker 3: that one and no one was keeping count or they

2830
02:36:12,280 --> 02:36:15,279
Speaker 3: were like distracted, like I think specifically they were putting

2831
02:36:15,280 --> 02:36:17,960
Speaker 3: in some like European Union like tariffs like like that

2832
02:36:18,120 --> 02:36:20,440
Speaker 3: day and then just nothing like happy Yeah, And like

2833
02:36:20,600 --> 02:36:23,280
Speaker 3: I am wondering how much of that is, Like he's

2834
02:36:23,320 --> 02:36:25,840
Speaker 3: just gonna announce tariffs, put them on hold, and then

2835
02:36:25,920 --> 02:36:29,000
Speaker 3: just forget about them, but still announce new different tariffs

2836
02:36:29,040 --> 02:36:31,760
Speaker 3: in the future that may cover some of the same stuff.

2837
02:36:32,000 --> 02:36:33,840
Speaker 4: Well, so here's the thing. Here's the thing.

2838
02:36:33,879 --> 02:36:36,320
Speaker 1: I some of these you remember, something doesn't because so

2839
02:36:36,320 --> 02:36:38,800
Speaker 1: so the steel tariff doubled from twenty five to fifty, right,

2840
02:36:38,800 --> 02:36:39,760
Speaker 1: and that one of the.

2841
02:36:39,720 --> 02:36:40,520
Speaker 4: Rolling date ones.

2842
02:36:40,600 --> 02:36:40,720
Speaker 7: Right.

2843
02:36:40,920 --> 02:36:42,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think it's it's like there are some

2844
02:36:43,080 --> 02:36:45,480
Speaker 1: that he like cares about and there are some that

2845
02:36:45,520 --> 02:36:46,320
Speaker 1: he kind of doesn't.

2846
02:36:46,320 --> 02:36:47,959
Speaker 3: I mean I feel the same way when I'm getting

2847
02:36:48,000 --> 02:36:51,160
Speaker 3: tacos like pork tacos, No, thank you, fish tacos.

2848
02:36:51,200 --> 02:36:55,120
Speaker 4: Maybe I don't. I don't endor Scarceon's opinion on tacos.

2849
02:36:55,480 --> 02:36:59,120
Speaker 1: This, this taco Trump shit is like I long for

2850
02:36:59,200 --> 02:37:02,920
Speaker 1: the days of orn Man bad dr was better than this.

2851
02:37:02,920 --> 02:37:06,000
Speaker 1: This is this is the worst it's ever been, Like,

2852
02:37:06,840 --> 02:37:09,480
Speaker 1: oh god, get give me comedians cutting his head off

2853
02:37:09,520 --> 02:37:11,760
Speaker 1: live on stage again, Like sure.

2854
02:37:11,600 --> 02:37:13,120
Speaker 4: Yes, that was fine.

2855
02:37:13,240 --> 02:37:15,880
Speaker 1: This is just like, what what are we doing here?

2856
02:37:16,200 --> 02:37:16,920
Speaker 4: Oh my god?

2857
02:37:17,160 --> 02:37:20,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's really tough because cilantro prices are

2858
02:37:20,120 --> 02:37:22,320
Speaker 3: gonna spike to these tariffs too, so I mean we

2859
02:37:22,360 --> 02:37:23,680
Speaker 3: can't even call them talk about.

2860
02:37:23,520 --> 02:37:27,039
Speaker 2: It's okay, you know, Garrett Garrison, that's actually just good politics,

2861
02:37:27,160 --> 02:37:30,400
Speaker 2: right because some people have some people have a disability

2862
02:37:30,400 --> 02:37:32,519
Speaker 2: where they can't test taste cilantro.

2863
02:37:32,680 --> 02:37:34,320
Speaker 4: Not a disability.

2864
02:37:36,000 --> 02:37:39,640
Speaker 3: Associated with pre statements. I will not be canceled by this.

2865
02:37:39,800 --> 02:37:42,080
Speaker 3: I do not buy the cilantro gene. I don't think

2866
02:37:42,120 --> 02:37:42,520
Speaker 3: it's real.

2867
02:37:42,760 --> 02:37:45,120
Speaker 1: But you don't think the cilantro Oh my god, Okay, Okay,

2868
02:37:45,480 --> 02:37:45,959
Speaker 1: I don't think.

2869
02:37:45,879 --> 02:37:46,480
Speaker 4: It's a gene.

2870
02:37:46,600 --> 02:37:50,080
Speaker 2: It's just I don't think people without the cilant with

2871
02:37:50,120 --> 02:37:52,160
Speaker 2: the cilantro tastes bad gene. I don't know if we'd

2872
02:37:52,200 --> 02:37:54,680
Speaker 2: call them people right, if it tastes like soapid.

2873
02:37:54,760 --> 02:37:56,360
Speaker 4: I just don't know. I don't know.

2874
02:37:56,440 --> 02:37:59,640
Speaker 1: Talk talks with China have been breaking down. Both sides

2875
02:37:59,640 --> 02:38:02,800
Speaker 1: have been in each other of violating the agreement they

2876
02:38:02,840 --> 02:38:04,600
Speaker 1: had come to to roll the tariffs back, which they'd

2877
02:38:04,600 --> 02:38:08,000
Speaker 1: like both have. I believe both sides on that. Actually, Yeah,

2878
02:38:08,160 --> 02:38:11,680
Speaker 1: and again this comes to like the actual fundamental structural

2879
02:38:11,680 --> 02:38:14,840
Speaker 1: problem of this, which is that and I think this

2880
02:38:14,879 --> 02:38:16,879
Speaker 1: is why a lot of people think that everything will

2881
02:38:16,879 --> 02:38:18,360
Speaker 1: sort of eventually go back to normal and I'll try

2882
02:38:18,400 --> 02:38:20,200
Speaker 1: to just sort of like bluster like I did the

2883
02:38:20,240 --> 02:38:24,200
Speaker 1: first time. Is that like, Okay, again, Trump's actual goal here,

2884
02:38:24,240 --> 02:38:26,120
Speaker 1: which is to not have a trade deficit with China,

2885
02:38:26,160 --> 02:38:30,720
Speaker 1: is unachievable, right, There's nothing that can actually be done

2886
02:38:30,959 --> 02:38:33,880
Speaker 1: in order to do that, and there's no good way

2887
02:38:33,920 --> 02:38:35,400
Speaker 1: to claim victory either.

2888
02:38:36,160 --> 02:38:38,080
Speaker 4: And so what we're sort of escalating.

2889
02:38:37,720 --> 02:38:39,920
Speaker 1: Towards is July, like the one hundred and thirty percent

2890
02:38:39,959 --> 02:38:42,720
Speaker 1: of teriff sort of like coming coming.

2891
02:38:42,440 --> 02:38:44,120
Speaker 4: Back into effect.

2892
02:38:44,520 --> 02:38:47,680
Speaker 1: So people are building up I think this, like I

2893
02:38:47,720 --> 02:38:50,440
Speaker 1: don't know the sort of like psychological wall to the

2894
02:38:50,480 --> 02:38:53,440
Speaker 1: fact that this could happen again, and the fact that

2895
02:38:53,680 --> 02:38:56,680
Speaker 1: like these negotiations are breaking down, I think is just

2896
02:38:56,760 --> 02:38:58,959
Speaker 1: making it increasingly likely that it is just going.

2897
02:38:58,800 --> 02:38:59,959
Speaker 4: To explode again.

2898
02:39:00,040 --> 02:39:03,600
Speaker 1: The steel tariffs also are just a shit show for

2899
02:39:03,680 --> 02:39:06,560
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different manufacturing sectors. It's very bad

2900
02:39:06,560 --> 02:39:08,800
Speaker 1: for US auto industry. There's already been a report on

2901
02:39:08,840 --> 02:39:11,680
Speaker 1: the effect of twenty five percent steel tariff has had

2902
02:39:11,800 --> 02:39:15,720
Speaker 1: on like on the construction industry. This has been tied

2903
02:39:15,760 --> 02:39:17,600
Speaker 1: into sort of like, oh yeah, the US is like

2904
02:39:17,600 --> 02:39:19,440
Speaker 1: not replenishing its housing stock because you.

2905
02:39:19,360 --> 02:39:23,720
Speaker 4: Know, but it's it's fucked.

2906
02:39:23,800 --> 02:39:26,800
Speaker 1: It's real bad. I don't I don't have a I

2907
02:39:26,840 --> 02:39:29,760
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't have a better thing to say

2908
02:39:29,760 --> 02:39:31,520
Speaker 1: about it than that, and that it's going to continue

2909
02:39:31,560 --> 02:39:36,600
Speaker 1: to get worse and at some points, probably the taco

2910
02:39:36,720 --> 02:39:38,520
Speaker 1: is going to be fucking over and people are going

2911
02:39:38,560 --> 02:39:40,240
Speaker 1: to realize that he's going to do this, and especially

2912
02:39:40,240 --> 02:39:41,280
Speaker 1: now they just pissed him off.

2913
02:39:42,720 --> 02:39:45,760
Speaker 4: Oh god, yeah, well what will they do then with

2914
02:39:45,800 --> 02:39:47,040
Speaker 4: their giant inflatable chicken.

2915
02:39:49,400 --> 02:39:51,400
Speaker 1: This is this is.

2916
02:39:53,080 --> 02:39:55,039
Speaker 4: The biggest limbrain stuff I've ever seen.

2917
02:39:55,480 --> 02:39:58,600
Speaker 1: I am I am living in a world where like

2918
02:39:58,720 --> 02:40:01,039
Speaker 1: a group chat that I make on signal when I

2919
02:40:01,120 --> 02:40:03,800
Speaker 1: was a manic last year has had more policy effect

2920
02:40:03,920 --> 02:40:07,680
Speaker 1: on like like preserving trans healthcare in that fucking budget

2921
02:40:07,680 --> 02:40:10,240
Speaker 1: build in the entire Democratic Party and they are spending

2922
02:40:10,280 --> 02:40:15,720
Speaker 1: their money fucking like holding out chicken, fucking chicken inflatable.

2923
02:40:17,080 --> 02:40:19,680
Speaker 2: Now, don't don't listen to me a Democrats. For just

2924
02:40:19,760 --> 02:40:23,320
Speaker 2: twenty million dollars, I will guarantee you the youth vote.

2925
02:40:23,360 --> 02:40:24,360
Speaker 2: Not a guarantee.

2926
02:40:24,879 --> 02:40:28,120
Speaker 3: I propose that we renamed this segment from tariff talk

2927
02:40:28,240 --> 02:40:33,359
Speaker 3: to Mia Molay the next I don't know twenty.

2928
02:40:33,160 --> 02:40:35,240
Speaker 2: Episots garrison as a Canadian?

2929
02:40:35,280 --> 02:40:36,600
Speaker 4: Are you allowed to use that word?

2930
02:40:37,360 --> 02:40:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go on to that break.

2931
02:40:43,280 --> 02:40:59,080
Speaker 3: Before I lose my job. Okay, we are back. James

2932
02:40:59,120 --> 02:41:01,800
Speaker 3: stout me. What's been going on?

2933
02:41:02,560 --> 02:41:05,879
Speaker 4: Hey everyone, James, it's Thursday night here and I'm just

2934
02:41:05,959 --> 02:41:08,440
Speaker 4: recording a little pickup to update you that the Trump

2935
02:41:08,480 --> 02:41:13,720
Speaker 4: administration has issued another travel ban. This travel ban bans

2936
02:41:13,760 --> 02:41:18,240
Speaker 4: travel or bans all new visas for people from twelve countries.

2937
02:41:18,280 --> 02:41:22,800
Speaker 4: One of those is Myanmar, and travelers further restricted for

2938
02:41:22,879 --> 02:41:26,160
Speaker 4: seven other countries. There are exemptions people who are already

2939
02:41:26,240 --> 02:41:29,279
Speaker 4: in the country with a valid visa. There are exemptions

2940
02:41:29,320 --> 02:41:34,000
Speaker 4: for Afghan people have an SIV especial immigrant visa. There

2941
02:41:34,000 --> 02:41:37,279
Speaker 4: are other smaller exemptions for the Olympic Games and sporting

2942
02:41:37,320 --> 02:41:39,560
Speaker 4: events for example. We will do a whole episode on

2943
02:41:39,600 --> 02:41:41,800
Speaker 4: this because we need longer than we have to explain it.

2944
02:41:41,840 --> 02:41:44,120
Speaker 4: But I just wanted to make people aware that we

2945
02:41:44,200 --> 02:41:46,720
Speaker 4: are tracking that, planning on getting something out about it,

2946
02:41:46,760 --> 02:41:49,200
Speaker 4: but we don't have enough space in this episode or

2947
02:41:49,240 --> 02:41:52,879
Speaker 4: time to edit to address it in full. Today, Well,

2948
02:41:52,920 --> 02:41:56,879
Speaker 4: some things have been happening Garrison here in sunny San Diego.

2949
02:41:56,760 --> 02:41:58,959
Speaker 1: With from what I hear actually great tagos.

2950
02:41:59,240 --> 02:42:01,560
Speaker 4: Yes, tacos are actually very good in San Diego. Yes, oh,

2951
02:42:01,600 --> 02:42:04,320
Speaker 4: excellent tacos. Some of the best tacos in southern California.

2952
02:42:04,360 --> 02:42:09,640
Speaker 4: Which you saying something, Come and visit us, eat our tacos.

2953
02:42:09,720 --> 02:42:13,680
Speaker 2: Across the border, get some extended release Mexican tramadol. Let

2954
02:42:13,680 --> 02:42:15,520
Speaker 2: me know where you were anyway, continued jam.

2955
02:42:15,560 --> 02:42:17,720
Speaker 4: Or tacos whatever you want to want to get across

2956
02:42:17,760 --> 02:42:23,119
Speaker 4: the border. So ICE agents raided Buonafortetta, which is pizza

2957
02:42:23,120 --> 02:42:25,680
Speaker 4: place in South Park. I used to stay like just

2958
02:42:25,760 --> 02:42:27,800
Speaker 4: above here. I would get late night pizza there all

2959
02:42:27,840 --> 02:42:29,480
Speaker 4: the time when my job was riding my bike and

2960
02:42:29,480 --> 02:42:32,920
Speaker 4: my hobby was drinking at Hamilton's Rip, which was a

2961
02:42:33,000 --> 02:42:36,360
Speaker 4: craft bn next door. In this bungled raid, they entered

2962
02:42:36,440 --> 02:42:38,800
Speaker 4: drin in a late afternoon and the evening of Friday,

2963
02:42:39,320 --> 02:42:42,280
Speaker 4: and ice agents soon found themselves surrounded by an angry

2964
02:42:42,280 --> 02:42:45,640
Speaker 4: crowd at local people, patrons from the Vegan Small Plates

2965
02:42:45,680 --> 02:42:49,480
Speaker 4: cocktail place across the across the street, and the brewery

2966
02:42:49,560 --> 02:42:52,640
Speaker 4: it's now South Park Brewing, as well as folks from

2967
02:42:52,640 --> 02:42:54,600
Speaker 4: the neighborhood. Right, this is one of those neighborhoods that

2968
02:42:54,680 --> 02:42:57,120
Speaker 4: like South Park of the concept was kind of invented

2969
02:42:57,120 --> 02:43:00,480
Speaker 4: by real estate agents so that it wouldn't seem like

2970
02:43:00,600 --> 02:43:02,240
Speaker 4: Golden Hill or Bankers Hill, and it would have like

2971
02:43:02,240 --> 02:43:04,680
Speaker 4: a more upmarket branding. So you have these very nice

2972
02:43:05,400 --> 02:43:07,200
Speaker 4: bars and restaurants, but then you also have like a

2973
02:43:07,280 --> 02:43:10,680
Speaker 4: laundromaut on the corner, and like a like a food market,

2974
02:43:10,760 --> 02:43:14,680
Speaker 4: like a non chain supermarket that serves a primarily Latino

2975
02:43:14,800 --> 02:43:17,240
Speaker 4: clan tel. I would imagine it's one of these very

2976
02:43:17,280 --> 02:43:21,480
Speaker 4: sort of like class diverse neighborhoods, I guess. But people

2977
02:43:21,560 --> 02:43:24,960
Speaker 4: came out en mass. They surrounded these vehicles right, they

2978
02:43:25,000 --> 02:43:28,920
Speaker 4: were chanting let them go. ITTSI agents decided to defuse

2979
02:43:28,920 --> 02:43:32,360
Speaker 4: the situation by throwing flash banks and then leaving with

2980
02:43:32,440 --> 02:43:36,760
Speaker 4: four employees. I should add here that, as KPBS put it, quote,

2981
02:43:36,760 --> 02:43:40,039
Speaker 4: flashbanks were thrown, which is a cowardly use of the

2982
02:43:40,080 --> 02:43:42,480
Speaker 4: passive voice to obscure culpability.

2983
02:43:42,520 --> 02:43:46,119
Speaker 3: I think flash bangs spontaneously were deployed, right.

2984
02:43:46,040 --> 02:43:49,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, who can say, Garrison, maybe the people at

2985
02:43:49,640 --> 02:43:52,240
Speaker 4: the Death Metal Vegan restaurant bought the flash bangs.

2986
02:43:52,320 --> 02:43:54,000
Speaker 3: Well, and I also do want to say I have

2987
02:43:54,080 --> 02:43:57,880
Speaker 3: gotten word from some exclusive sources that these were actually

2988
02:43:57,959 --> 02:44:01,400
Speaker 3: secret militia members asperating as ICE agents.

2989
02:44:01,640 --> 02:44:04,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's just fucking address it because it's very silly.

2990
02:44:04,840 --> 02:44:06,560
Speaker 2: The understandable degree of it is that like.

2991
02:44:06,520 --> 02:44:07,840
Speaker 4: They are dressing like Proud Voice.

2992
02:44:07,879 --> 02:44:11,560
Speaker 2: They look exactly like Proud Boys in Portland in twenty nineteen, right,

2993
02:44:11,640 --> 02:44:13,480
Speaker 2: Like they are indistinguishable visually.

2994
02:44:13,520 --> 02:44:16,600
Speaker 3: Their uniform standards have like kind of gone away. They

2995
02:44:16,680 --> 02:44:19,000
Speaker 3: seem like they don't have standards anymore. Yes, and now

2996
02:44:19,040 --> 02:44:21,760
Speaker 3: they are just dressing like how Proud Voices and three

2997
02:44:21,800 --> 02:44:23,199
Speaker 3: Percenters used to dress.

2998
02:44:23,640 --> 02:44:26,840
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, like I think this kind of conspiracy theory

2999
02:44:26,879 --> 02:44:30,080
Speaker 4: stems from the initial MISI identification of the ginger ice

3000
02:44:30,120 --> 02:44:33,880
Speaker 4: agent who smashed someone's window as Michael Meyer a ka

3001
02:44:33,959 --> 02:44:38,560
Speaker 4: Lewis Arthur, who's the one of the veterans on patrol leaders.

3002
02:44:39,080 --> 02:44:41,480
Speaker 4: He was live streaming in Oklahoma at the time that

3003
02:44:41,480 --> 02:44:44,480
Speaker 4: that rate happened. It's not him, Yeah, it's just two

3004
02:44:44,520 --> 02:44:47,280
Speaker 4: people who are ginger that that is possible that there

3005
02:44:47,320 --> 02:44:50,280
Speaker 4: are lots of them. Then I've seen this in multiple

3006
02:44:50,280 --> 02:44:54,120
Speaker 4: other cases, often from the kind of more lib sky

3007
02:44:54,200 --> 02:44:56,680
Speaker 4: people you see on Blue Sky right, who seem unable

3008
02:44:56,720 --> 02:44:59,120
Speaker 4: to comprehend the fact that no, they are cops and

3009
02:44:59,160 --> 02:45:02,640
Speaker 4: they are doing evil and cops do evil shit, cops

3010
02:45:02,640 --> 02:45:03,480
Speaker 4: can do bad things.

3011
02:45:03,520 --> 02:45:07,120
Speaker 3: And now, yeah, cops are more likely, especially immigration officers,

3012
02:45:07,560 --> 02:45:10,440
Speaker 3: do not have their names on their kit.

3013
02:45:10,800 --> 02:45:11,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3014
02:45:11,000 --> 02:45:13,320
Speaker 3: And it's something that we saw like in Portland and

3015
02:45:13,360 --> 02:45:15,400
Speaker 3: twenty twenty and it was incredibly worrying. And now it's

3016
02:45:15,440 --> 02:45:18,600
Speaker 3: spreading all around the entire country to the point where

3017
02:45:18,640 --> 02:45:21,720
Speaker 3: most most like people enacting these raids are both hiding

3018
02:45:21,720 --> 02:45:25,119
Speaker 3: their identities and also obscuring what agencies they are actually

3019
02:45:25,160 --> 02:45:28,720
Speaker 3: like from, which is why people are like concerned that

3020
02:45:28,800 --> 02:45:31,160
Speaker 3: you like, what if these guys aren't even from the government.

3021
02:45:31,520 --> 02:45:32,760
Speaker 3: What if these are just like some kind of right

3022
02:45:32,760 --> 02:45:35,240
Speaker 3: wing militia, And yeah, with a little bit of checking

3023
02:45:35,280 --> 02:45:37,880
Speaker 3: you can usually tell that they are in fact from

3024
02:45:38,040 --> 02:45:39,520
Speaker 3: usually dhs.

3025
02:45:39,760 --> 02:45:42,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the California one was somewhat ridiculous, right,

3026
02:45:42,760 --> 02:45:45,119
Speaker 4: There is not an exemption to the California assault weapons

3027
02:45:45,120 --> 02:45:47,360
Speaker 4: ban for militias. These guys had guns, which would have

3028
02:45:47,360 --> 02:45:50,160
Speaker 4: been about four felonies each. Yees saying people don't do

3029
02:45:50,240 --> 02:45:53,000
Speaker 4: felony things they do, but you'd have to be a

3030
02:45:53,000 --> 02:45:54,880
Speaker 4: bit of a tool to just stand on the street

3031
02:45:54,920 --> 02:45:57,600
Speaker 4: with your felony select fire MPX.

3032
02:45:58,000 --> 02:46:00,880
Speaker 2: Part of this is a very and a lot of

3033
02:46:00,959 --> 02:46:03,240
Speaker 2: leftists fell for this too, But this is fundament mentally

3034
02:46:03,320 --> 02:46:05,680
Speaker 2: rooted in a liberal delusion, which is that the danger

3035
02:46:06,000 --> 02:46:09,400
Speaker 2: is unaccountable groups of civilians with guns, not the police.

3036
02:46:09,680 --> 02:46:13,160
Speaker 4: The danger is the cops. The danger has always been

3037
02:46:13,240 --> 02:46:16,960
Speaker 4: the cops. Yes, we need to push back on this, right,

3038
02:46:17,040 --> 02:46:19,440
Speaker 4: Like the prow Boys are not like the be all

3039
02:46:19,480 --> 02:46:21,400
Speaker 4: and end all of eve when I'm but they're.

3040
02:46:21,240 --> 02:46:23,520
Speaker 2: That's sure, of course, I've like, I've had my hand

3041
02:46:23,600 --> 02:46:25,600
Speaker 2: broken by one. I don't like them, but I'm not

3042
02:46:25,640 --> 02:46:27,440
Speaker 2: as scared of them as I am of just the

3043
02:46:27,480 --> 02:46:28,480
Speaker 2: cops like.

3044
02:46:29,840 --> 02:46:31,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, we need to push back on this because it

3045
02:46:31,600 --> 02:46:34,480
Speaker 4: fundamentally misidentifies the problem. And until these people wake up

3046
02:46:34,520 --> 02:46:37,080
Speaker 4: and realize that they're they'll going to respond in the

3047
02:46:37,120 --> 02:46:37,840
Speaker 4: correct manner.

3048
02:46:37,959 --> 02:46:39,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, like, you know, one of the

3049
02:46:39,240 --> 02:46:41,480
Speaker 1: things that you can point out here is is like, yeah,

3050
02:46:41,520 --> 02:46:44,920
Speaker 1: there were a bunch of police in Nazi Germany, and

3051
02:46:45,040 --> 02:46:48,000
Speaker 1: the moment that they started carrying out the orders of

3052
02:46:48,040 --> 02:46:50,320
Speaker 1: the Nazi government, they became Nazis.

3053
02:46:50,760 --> 02:46:51,800
Speaker 4: Like that's that's.

3054
02:46:51,640 --> 02:46:54,320
Speaker 1: Just how this works, right, You'll get a pull a like, oh,

3055
02:46:54,480 --> 02:46:56,920
Speaker 1: I was just a whimart police guy, just enforcing the

3056
02:46:56,959 --> 02:46:59,480
Speaker 1: laws of the of the Nazi government. It's like, okay,

3057
02:47:00,200 --> 02:47:02,680
Speaker 1: you are, sir, you are a Nazi, and you are

3058
02:47:02,680 --> 02:47:05,200
Speaker 1: a Nazi because you are an agent of the Nazi state,

3059
02:47:05,560 --> 02:47:08,000
Speaker 1: not because you were like you know, you were like

3060
02:47:08,080 --> 02:47:10,400
Speaker 1: necessarily in some perimilitary or whatever, like.

3061
02:47:10,920 --> 02:47:12,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, a member of the party.

3062
02:47:12,160 --> 02:47:13,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, like that that's what happens when you work for

3063
02:47:13,920 --> 02:47:16,039
Speaker 1: a fascist state. So you're now a fascist.

3064
02:47:16,680 --> 02:47:19,760
Speaker 4: So in documents I've reviewed, I claimed that nineteen employees

3065
02:47:19,760 --> 02:47:23,240
Speaker 4: at a restaurant were using falsified green cards. They were

3066
02:47:23,280 --> 02:47:25,600
Speaker 4: acting on a tip from November twenty twenty and then

3067
02:47:25,640 --> 02:47:28,480
Speaker 4: they received a follow up tip in late January twenty

3068
02:47:28,520 --> 02:47:32,240
Speaker 4: twenty five. The tip claim that many of the staff

3069
02:47:32,240 --> 02:47:36,400
Speaker 4: at Buonaforta Jetta were undocumented, that the owner made them

3070
02:47:36,400 --> 02:47:39,760
Speaker 4: work long shifts and verbally abused them. I have seen

3071
02:47:39,800 --> 02:47:43,480
Speaker 4: no evidence that this is true beyond that claim. I've

3072
02:47:43,640 --> 02:47:46,240
Speaker 4: been to and past that restaurant hundreds of times. I've

3073
02:47:46,240 --> 02:47:48,600
Speaker 4: never seen anyone who looks sad to be there. But

3074
02:47:48,640 --> 02:47:51,480
Speaker 4: it doesn't mean that's not happening. But I've seen nothing

3075
02:47:51,480 --> 02:47:53,840
Speaker 4: to lead me to believe that it is beyond this claim. Right,

3076
02:47:54,480 --> 02:47:58,080
Speaker 4: HSI had been in communication with bonafort Jetta's lawyer since

3077
02:47:58,200 --> 02:48:01,520
Speaker 4: February and they had been cooperating. Right Like one offort

3078
02:48:02,120 --> 02:48:04,640
Speaker 4: had given them these documents, which they claim were fake

3079
02:48:04,800 --> 02:48:08,000
Speaker 4: green cards. They applied for this warrant, which they got

3080
02:48:08,000 --> 02:48:10,920
Speaker 4: an exceedingly broad warrant. One of the things that allow

3081
02:48:11,080 --> 02:48:15,560
Speaker 4: was for everyone inside to be detained and fingerprinted if necessary,

3082
02:48:15,680 --> 02:48:19,720
Speaker 4: even people who are not accused of any immigration offense, right,

3083
02:48:19,760 --> 02:48:23,960
Speaker 4: people who are United States citizens. The warrant also detailed

3084
02:48:23,959 --> 02:48:27,880
Speaker 4: that they had been surveiling the location. City councilman Shani

3085
02:48:27,920 --> 02:48:30,840
Speaker 4: La Riviera called the HSI agent terrorists. In a social

3086
02:48:30,879 --> 02:48:34,160
Speaker 4: media post, Bill Malougan got sad about this. Stephen Miller

3087
02:48:34,240 --> 02:48:37,280
Speaker 4: quote tweeted Bill Milligan getting sad about this. Top Luria

3088
02:48:37,280 --> 02:48:40,359
Speaker 4: came out with three paragraphs of total bullshit and continued

3089
02:48:40,480 --> 02:48:43,240
Speaker 4: to unabatteredly support stripping our city of all its socially

3090
02:48:43,240 --> 02:48:46,080
Speaker 4: beneficial services in order to direct a fire hose of

3091
02:48:46,080 --> 02:48:48,960
Speaker 4: our money to the cops, one of whom earned four

3092
02:48:49,040 --> 02:48:52,959
Speaker 4: hundred and thirty thousand dollars in twenty twenty three. Jesus

3093
02:48:53,200 --> 02:48:58,080
Speaker 4: what yep? Yeah, San Diego's highest paid public officials of

3094
02:48:58,160 --> 02:49:01,680
Speaker 4: cops by oh my god. Yeah, we are becoming a

3095
02:49:01,680 --> 02:49:05,360
Speaker 4: police department with a city attached because of Todd Gloria,

3096
02:49:05,600 --> 02:49:08,640
Speaker 4: someone who ran in twenty twenty on a reform agenda, right,

3097
02:49:08,959 --> 02:49:11,160
Speaker 4: who owns himself two hundred and fifty thousand much less.

3098
02:49:11,200 --> 02:49:14,879
Speaker 3: That's that's that's an unhit football coach takes, which is

3099
02:49:15,959 --> 02:49:18,560
Speaker 3: I thought that the Portland police were paid too much.

3100
02:49:18,920 --> 02:49:23,279
Speaker 4: That's that's wild. Yeah. Yeah, this person worked and alleged

3101
02:49:23,480 --> 02:49:25,480
Speaker 4: three thousand hours of overtime.

3102
02:49:25,520 --> 02:49:29,920
Speaker 3: I believe it's like what scrolling scrolling TikTok in your car, Like,

3103
02:49:30,080 --> 02:49:30,600
Speaker 3: come on.

3104
02:49:30,600 --> 02:49:32,360
Speaker 2: Keeping an eye, keeping an eye on kids.

3105
02:49:32,440 --> 02:49:37,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you can't you you can't be three thousand hours.

3106
02:49:37,080 --> 02:49:39,879
Speaker 4: I mean someone could do three thousand divided by fifty

3107
02:49:40,600 --> 02:49:43,120
Speaker 4: fifty two weeks a year or whatever. Like it's it's

3108
02:49:43,360 --> 02:49:45,480
Speaker 4: it's an unfathomable amount of overtime.

3109
02:49:46,240 --> 02:49:48,280
Speaker 1: It's it's just fifty eight hours a week.

3110
02:49:48,560 --> 02:49:52,400
Speaker 4: Whoa, yeah, so that's full time plus one and a

3111
02:49:52,440 --> 02:49:57,640
Speaker 4: half full time jobs, hard worker. There's a KPBS article

3112
02:49:57,680 --> 02:50:01,160
Speaker 4: on it. I'll linking multiple police officers I guess in

3113
02:50:01,200 --> 02:50:03,200
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four are on track to earn over four

3114
02:50:03,280 --> 02:50:05,720
Speaker 4: hundred thousand dollars with the bulckit coming from overtime pay.

3115
02:50:06,240 --> 02:50:12,000
Speaker 4: San Diego never gets enough attention for being a complete

3116
02:50:12,000 --> 02:50:14,680
Speaker 4: shit show of a city, right Like and Ron by

3117
02:50:14,680 --> 02:50:17,480
Speaker 4: the Sea is the best way I've heard it described, right, Like,

3118
02:50:17,560 --> 02:50:24,240
Speaker 4: our city consistently has massive corruption in scandals and nothing happens.

3119
02:50:24,360 --> 02:50:26,080
Speaker 2: It's it's a problem when it a place.

3120
02:50:26,200 --> 02:50:26,880
Speaker 4: Is that nice?

3121
02:50:27,240 --> 02:50:27,440
Speaker 9: Right?

3122
02:50:27,560 --> 02:50:27,800
Speaker 4: Yeah?

3123
02:50:27,840 --> 02:50:30,880
Speaker 2: Like that's really the fundamental issue is like people were like, hey,

3124
02:50:30,879 --> 02:50:33,240
Speaker 2: do you hear about that fucked up thing the meritd Yeah,

3125
02:50:33,280 --> 02:50:35,480
Speaker 2: but like look at the look at the beach.

3126
02:50:36,680 --> 02:50:40,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's yeah, that's literally the csis of

3127
02:50:40,360 --> 02:50:43,480
Speaker 4: under the Perfect Son. Yeah, she's a book that should be, uh,

3128
02:50:44,280 --> 02:50:47,400
Speaker 4: should be obligatory if you want to move to San Diego. Yeah.

3129
02:50:47,440 --> 02:50:49,119
Speaker 4: I think it's one of the one of the earlier

3130
02:50:49,560 --> 02:50:53,400
Speaker 4: Mike Davis books. But against San Diego, a place where

3131
02:50:53,400 --> 02:50:55,400
Speaker 4: the politics are bad. It's also what happens when everyone

3132
02:50:55,440 --> 02:50:56,880
Speaker 4: votes them no matter what. Right.

3133
02:50:56,959 --> 02:50:59,280
Speaker 2: Also, people, in general, if you want to understand why

3134
02:50:59,640 --> 02:51:03,000
Speaker 2: Southern California be like a do read read Mike Davis.

3135
02:51:03,320 --> 02:51:07,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, in general, just read Mike Davis.

3136
02:51:07,959 --> 02:51:10,520
Speaker 2: Actually, wherever you are read some Mike Davis.

3137
02:51:10,840 --> 02:51:11,040
Speaker 1: Yep.

3138
02:51:11,920 --> 02:51:14,600
Speaker 4: I seem to have used I want to get into

3139
02:51:14,600 --> 02:51:16,240
Speaker 4: this because I think this is an important issue that

3140
02:51:16,640 --> 02:51:19,200
Speaker 4: hasn't been raised any coverage. I see I seem to

3141
02:51:19,240 --> 02:51:22,360
Speaker 4: have used AB sixty driver's licenses to identify the people

3142
02:51:22,360 --> 02:51:26,560
Speaker 4: in Bonnafort Chetta, or at least use California DMV documents

3143
02:51:26,560 --> 02:51:27,280
Speaker 4: of some kind.

3144
02:51:27,879 --> 02:51:28,400
Speaker 1: Jesus.

3145
02:51:29,040 --> 02:51:32,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's this misunderstanding. People think that if you

3146
02:51:32,680 --> 02:51:35,920
Speaker 4: have a driver's license in California, that information isn't accessible

3147
02:51:36,040 --> 02:51:40,160
Speaker 4: to immigration, and that's not true. AB sixty licenses. So

3148
02:51:40,320 --> 02:51:43,280
Speaker 4: that's Assembly Bill sixty, right, California piece of law allow

3149
02:51:43,360 --> 02:51:46,440
Speaker 4: people to get a license without having legal immigration status.

3150
02:51:46,480 --> 02:51:49,680
Speaker 4: This is a good thing. It means undocumented people are

3151
02:51:49,720 --> 02:51:53,240
Speaker 4: less likely to drive unlicensed and uninsured, right, and therefore

3152
02:51:53,280 --> 02:51:55,560
Speaker 4: it means that people are likely to stay at the

3153
02:51:55,560 --> 02:51:59,120
Speaker 4: scene of car accidents, and people who getting car accident

3154
02:51:59,160 --> 02:52:01,480
Speaker 4: to likely covered insurance. Right, I've been hit by an

3155
02:52:01,560 --> 02:52:07,560
Speaker 4: unsure driver. It fucking sucks. Oh. DHS cannot access information

3156
02:52:07,640 --> 02:52:11,640
Speaker 4: on whose license is an AB sixty license, but they

3157
02:52:11,680 --> 02:52:16,240
Speaker 4: can access through a variety of databases and mechanisms other

3158
02:52:16,360 --> 02:52:19,959
Speaker 4: DMV data, which may include things like photographs, addresses, or

3159
02:52:20,000 --> 02:52:22,840
Speaker 4: thumb prints. So in this case, they were able to

3160
02:52:22,920 --> 02:52:25,200
Speaker 4: look at the fake green card and then look at

3161
02:52:25,240 --> 02:52:28,879
Speaker 4: other data, both in federal and local databases, from various things.

3162
02:52:28,879 --> 02:52:31,360
Speaker 4: And some of these people had overstayed visas their claiming

3163
02:52:31,440 --> 02:52:33,400
Speaker 4: right be like, Okay, well we found a guy with

3164
02:52:33,440 --> 02:52:36,080
Speaker 4: this name and this date of birth, but the person

3165
02:52:36,120 --> 02:52:38,480
Speaker 4: hasn't minisued a green card, that that's their claim right,

3166
02:52:39,080 --> 02:52:42,480
Speaker 4: and the same with the driver's license database. So obviously,

3167
02:52:42,840 --> 02:52:44,960
Speaker 4: just to finish up on that thought, I guess this

3168
02:52:45,000 --> 02:52:47,480
Speaker 4: disincentivizes people from doing the thing which I've just said

3169
02:52:47,560 --> 02:52:50,360
Speaker 4: is good, which is getting a driver's license. Right. It disincentivizes.

3170
02:52:50,760 --> 02:52:53,240
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm seeing things from students right now being

3171
02:52:53,280 --> 02:52:56,520
Speaker 4: afraid of going to their own graduations, being afraid of

3172
02:52:56,560 --> 02:53:00,879
Speaker 4: having their parents at their own graduation. Right like two

3173
02:53:00,920 --> 02:53:05,360
Speaker 4: blocks from a school, fucking chicken do not she's on

3174
02:53:05,440 --> 02:53:09,720
Speaker 4: top of the fence. Sorry, I'm just going to leave this.

3175
02:53:10,040 --> 02:53:11,240
Speaker 4: You're gonna fucking get out?

3176
02:53:12,959 --> 02:53:18,960
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, please chicken break.

3177
02:53:19,760 --> 02:53:22,680
Speaker 1: I really, I really truly thought that that was part

3178
02:53:22,680 --> 02:53:24,720
Speaker 1: of the sentence, and I was trying to process in

3179
02:53:24,760 --> 02:53:25,480
Speaker 1: my brain.

3180
02:53:25,280 --> 02:53:26,560
Speaker 4: What the fighting was going on.

3181
02:53:27,320 --> 02:53:33,520
Speaker 1: That's like, yeah, all.

3182
02:53:33,480 --> 02:53:37,920
Speaker 4: Right, we're back. Did you none commanded? Did you pick

3183
02:53:37,959 --> 02:53:38,440
Speaker 4: up the chicken?

3184
02:53:39,360 --> 02:53:39,440
Speaker 1: Ye?

3185
02:53:39,800 --> 02:53:45,560
Speaker 4: Could you say that you were kind of a chicken jockey? Everyone?

3186
02:53:45,560 --> 02:53:48,400
Speaker 2: No? No, just another thirty seconds of silence, everybody, let's

3187
02:53:48,400 --> 02:53:49,600
Speaker 2: really give that it's due.

3188
02:53:51,480 --> 02:53:55,040
Speaker 4: Anyone got a gong that we could find? No? No,

3189
02:53:55,800 --> 02:54:01,640
Speaker 4: all right, pouring one out for Garrison. So right now,

3190
02:54:01,640 --> 02:54:05,120
Speaker 4: both Bonifort Jetta locations are closed. They go Fundme for

3191
02:54:05,160 --> 02:54:07,720
Speaker 4: the impacted employees and their families has already hit twice

3192
02:54:07,720 --> 02:54:10,920
Speaker 4: its goal one hundred and twenty thousand dollars. As I've said,

3193
02:54:10,959 --> 02:54:13,400
Speaker 4: there have been on sef gestions which, as far as

3194
02:54:13,440 --> 02:54:16,520
Speaker 4: I'm were unfounded that a restaurant forced and documented employees

3195
02:54:16,560 --> 02:54:20,400
Speaker 4: to work long hours. That doesn't matter, right, even if

3196
02:54:20,440 --> 02:54:24,560
Speaker 4: they did, you shouldn't be punishing the people who are being,

3197
02:54:24,640 --> 02:54:28,320
Speaker 4: in theory abused, right. I don't understand how you get

3198
02:54:28,320 --> 02:54:30,199
Speaker 4: to that logic. And even if that is the case,

3199
02:54:30,280 --> 02:54:34,440
Speaker 4: like having ice available on call to deport your employees

3200
02:54:34,480 --> 02:54:36,600
Speaker 4: only plays into the hands of abusive bosses who don't

3201
02:54:36,600 --> 02:54:38,920
Speaker 4: want to pay people, right, they can just call ice instead.

3202
02:54:39,200 --> 02:54:41,120
Speaker 4: This is a tactic that's been used for decades and

3203
02:54:41,160 --> 02:54:44,920
Speaker 4: into migrants. So yeah, that's all I got. Good times,

3204
02:54:45,040 --> 02:54:46,280
Speaker 4: good times in San Diego.

3205
02:54:46,760 --> 02:54:49,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, We're going to talk about this more in

3206
02:54:49,080 --> 02:54:53,720
Speaker 1: another episode. There was also a rage in Minneapolis that

3207
02:54:53,800 --> 02:54:55,920
Speaker 1: you know, there's like through the agents out multi agency

3208
02:54:56,040 --> 02:54:59,080
Speaker 1: raid and like a hundred people just showed up and

3209
02:54:59,480 --> 02:55:00,840
Speaker 1: got them the fuck off.

3210
02:55:00,640 --> 02:55:02,199
Speaker 4: And they didn't end up arresting anybody.

3211
02:55:02,480 --> 02:55:04,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, well, so I think they wrest some

3212
02:55:04,440 --> 02:55:06,320
Speaker 1: all the protesters, but like they didn't end up attaining anything.

3213
02:55:06,320 --> 02:55:08,240
Speaker 4: They did not detain the people they were going after,

3214
02:55:08,520 --> 02:55:09,000
Speaker 4: they stopt them.

3215
02:55:09,440 --> 02:55:11,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's there's this there's this great line that

3216
02:55:11,280 --> 02:55:14,040
Speaker 1: fucking every single person from Minneapolis who I know now

3217
02:55:14,640 --> 02:55:17,560
Speaker 1: is quoting where one of the people who got interviewed

3218
02:55:18,320 --> 02:55:20,640
Speaker 1: in Sahan Journal said, that's Minnieappolis.

3219
02:55:20,720 --> 02:55:20,959
Speaker 4: Baby.

3220
02:55:21,000 --> 02:55:23,840
Speaker 1: We pull up, so you too could pull up and

3221
02:55:23,959 --> 02:55:26,560
Speaker 1: stop the fucking you see for cowards, you can stop

3222
02:55:26,600 --> 02:55:30,920
Speaker 1: them now. Speaking of incredible cowardice. One of the things

3223
02:55:30,959 --> 02:55:34,280
Speaker 1: that's been happening on a sort of another immigration front

3224
02:55:34,640 --> 02:55:38,000
Speaker 1: is the US's attempt to revoke student visas for Chinese

3225
02:55:38,000 --> 02:55:43,440
Speaker 1: international students. We don't actually know what this means yet

3226
02:55:43,480 --> 02:55:45,440
Speaker 1: and what's going to look like. All they've said is

3227
02:55:45,480 --> 02:55:49,680
Speaker 1: that they're working to aggressively to revoke visas. As a

3228
02:55:49,760 --> 02:55:52,400
Speaker 1: direct quote from them, and this this is this was

3229
02:55:52,440 --> 02:55:56,680
Speaker 1: from uh Marco Rubio on fucking whatever social media app

3230
02:55:57,240 --> 02:55:59,760
Speaker 1: and you also say, quote, we will revise visa criteria

3231
02:55:59,760 --> 02:56:03,000
Speaker 1: to a hand scrutiny of all future visa applications from

3232
02:56:03,000 --> 02:56:05,400
Speaker 1: the People's of Public of China and Hong Kong. So

3233
02:56:05,680 --> 02:56:08,200
Speaker 1: uh fucking rip all of the Hong Kong liberals who

3234
02:56:08,200 --> 02:56:08,879
Speaker 1: supported Trump.

3235
02:56:09,440 --> 02:56:10,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, bad shit.

3236
02:56:11,720 --> 02:56:13,920
Speaker 1: No one knows exactly what this is going to mean.

3237
02:56:14,200 --> 02:56:17,480
Speaker 1: I've seen speculation that this could be a full ban.

3238
02:56:17,760 --> 02:56:20,320
Speaker 1: I that's what Stephen Miller has wanted for a long time.

3239
02:56:20,400 --> 02:56:23,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's going to happen. They've been

3240
02:56:23,520 --> 02:56:26,600
Speaker 1: talking about like quote unquote critical fields like stems stuff.

3241
02:56:27,720 --> 02:56:30,920
Speaker 1: It could also be a you know, the ceific language

3242
02:56:30,959 --> 02:56:32,920
Speaker 1: they're using is like anyone who's linked to the Communist Party.

3243
02:56:33,959 --> 02:56:36,080
Speaker 1: That's a lot and what's that mean?

3244
02:56:36,440 --> 02:56:37,520
Speaker 4: Yet? Who the fuck knows?

3245
02:56:37,720 --> 02:56:39,920
Speaker 1: Right, Like, you know, like there's some of these people

3246
02:56:39,959 --> 02:56:42,000
Speaker 1: are the kids of like Chinese companies partaty members, but

3247
02:56:42,120 --> 02:56:44,600
Speaker 1: like there are that's like seven percent of the population

3248
02:56:44,680 --> 02:56:46,960
Speaker 1: of China, right, Like that's a lot of people, and

3249
02:56:47,080 --> 02:56:50,960
Speaker 1: then linked can be fucking anything, right Like, yeah, you know,

3250
02:56:52,040 --> 02:56:54,720
Speaker 1: so no one is entirely sure what this means yet.

3251
02:56:55,280 --> 02:56:58,320
Speaker 1: I my guess is that it's going to be combined

3252
02:56:58,480 --> 02:57:00,480
Speaker 1: with the other horrible thing I been doing right now,

3253
02:57:00,480 --> 02:57:03,840
Speaker 1: which that they've suspended visits like consular visits to get

3254
02:57:03,840 --> 02:57:05,680
Speaker 1: student visas while they try to figure out how to

3255
02:57:05,840 --> 02:57:08,600
Speaker 1: like do this like implement this new social media policy

3256
02:57:08,640 --> 02:57:11,080
Speaker 1: where they want to just effectively. What it looks like

3257
02:57:11,120 --> 02:57:13,200
Speaker 1: they want to do is just like if you've posted

3258
02:57:13,200 --> 02:57:16,360
Speaker 1: about Palestine, they deny your student visa. That seems like

3259
02:57:16,480 --> 02:57:17,760
Speaker 1: the thing that they're trying to put in place, Yet

3260
02:57:17,760 --> 02:57:20,720
Speaker 1: they haven't yet My guess is that these two are

3261
02:57:20,760 --> 02:57:23,000
Speaker 1: going to end up being linked and they're gonna and

3262
02:57:23,080 --> 02:57:24,720
Speaker 1: that that's gonna be what they're doing. It could also

3263
02:57:24,840 --> 02:57:26,800
Speaker 1: just be some sort of large scale of rollback of

3264
02:57:27,520 --> 02:57:31,080
Speaker 1: student visas for Chinese international students here, Chinese and national

3265
02:57:31,120 --> 02:57:34,920
Speaker 1: students have been targeted under so many goddamn administrations now,

3266
02:57:35,000 --> 02:57:36,000
Speaker 1: it's fucking horrible.

3267
02:57:36,680 --> 02:57:38,480
Speaker 4: These are just like people.

3268
02:57:39,000 --> 02:57:41,720
Speaker 1: It's interesting because when you read media accounts of this,

3269
02:57:42,440 --> 02:57:44,360
Speaker 1: a lot of them will be like, well, people aren't

3270
02:57:44,400 --> 02:57:45,840
Speaker 1: that Like, we're not that scared.

3271
02:57:45,840 --> 02:57:46,160
Speaker 4: That's okay.

3272
02:57:46,240 --> 02:57:47,920
Speaker 1: It's like, well, no, you you are talking to the

3273
02:57:47,959 --> 02:57:50,400
Speaker 1: people who are stupid enough to talk to an American journalist. Right,

3274
02:57:50,879 --> 02:57:53,720
Speaker 1: most people just say no because they're genuine. Is like

3275
02:57:53,760 --> 02:57:56,000
Speaker 1: creating an atmosphere or fucking terror where people don't want

3276
02:57:56,040 --> 02:57:57,760
Speaker 1: to people don't want to speak out about it. And

3277
02:57:57,800 --> 02:57:59,320
Speaker 1: this and this has been something that's been used to

3278
02:57:59,560 --> 02:58:03,680
Speaker 1: like great grad student unions, you know, like just over

3279
02:58:03,720 --> 02:58:06,119
Speaker 1: the years, this has been a kind of repression.

3280
02:58:06,160 --> 02:58:06,800
Speaker 4: It's very useful.

3281
02:58:06,959 --> 02:58:10,760
Speaker 1: This is also I think part of their of just

3282
02:58:10,840 --> 02:58:13,080
Speaker 1: the broader war against higher education because a lot of

3283
02:58:13,200 --> 02:58:16,080
Speaker 1: Chinese international students like come in on full tuition, so

3284
02:58:16,200 --> 02:58:20,040
Speaker 1: they're paying for a large percentage of like a bunch

3285
02:58:20,080 --> 02:58:21,240
Speaker 1: of university budgets.

3286
02:58:21,879 --> 02:58:23,080
Speaker 4: But yeah, we will, we will.

3287
02:58:23,080 --> 02:58:25,840
Speaker 1: We will keep you informed as to what this actually

3288
02:58:25,920 --> 02:58:27,560
Speaker 1: looks like. That's what we know about it for now.

3289
02:58:27,840 --> 02:58:28,920
Speaker 1: It fucking sucks.

3290
02:58:30,000 --> 02:58:34,120
Speaker 3: Let's end with some semi good news. I guess we

3291
02:58:34,200 --> 02:58:40,160
Speaker 3: will return into my horribly named segment Stinky Musk. Oh god, hey,

3292
02:58:40,320 --> 02:58:42,360
Speaker 3: this is Gaere from the future, just cutting in here

3293
02:58:42,360 --> 02:58:45,280
Speaker 3: at the beginning because help well hint. The twenty four

3294
02:58:45,360 --> 02:58:49,280
Speaker 3: hours after we were recorded this initial segment, there has

3295
02:58:49,400 --> 02:58:53,360
Speaker 3: been substantial developments in the Elon Musdonald Trump breakup story.

3296
02:58:53,920 --> 02:58:56,000
Speaker 4: It is getting quite ugly out there, folks.

3297
02:58:56,080 --> 02:58:59,920
Speaker 3: The girls are fighting Diva down jd Vance is high

3298
02:59:00,120 --> 02:59:02,920
Speaker 3: in the closet as the parents are screaming down the hallway.

3299
02:59:03,400 --> 02:59:06,080
Speaker 3: It is getting quite ugly. Trump's gotten rid of the

3300
02:59:06,120 --> 02:59:09,760
Speaker 3: electric vehicle mandate and is threatening to terminate Elon's government

3301
02:59:09,840 --> 02:59:13,800
Speaker 3: subsidies and contracts. Meanwhile, Elon Musk is talking about how

3302
02:59:13,879 --> 02:59:17,120
Speaker 3: Donald Trump is in the Epstein files, like duh, Like

3303
02:59:17,200 --> 02:59:19,200
Speaker 3: we don't already know this, but for some reason, this

3304
02:59:19,360 --> 02:59:22,800
Speaker 3: is blowing the minds of people like Alex Jones, who

3305
02:59:22,800 --> 02:59:26,680
Speaker 3: are now crashing out on the timeline, huge, huge shakeups

3306
02:59:26,800 --> 02:59:28,760
Speaker 3: in the mega world, with some people trying to cope

3307
02:59:28,800 --> 02:59:31,920
Speaker 3: claiming that this is a five D Chess move and

3308
02:59:32,040 --> 02:59:36,120
Speaker 3: that Elon and Trump are gonna come back together in

3309
02:59:36,200 --> 02:59:40,320
Speaker 3: the end, which is completely absurd. This is a huge

3310
02:59:40,360 --> 02:59:42,960
Speaker 3: shift in the power balance in the New Right. We

3311
02:59:43,040 --> 02:59:44,520
Speaker 3: will be doing a whole new piece in the near

3312
02:59:44,600 --> 02:59:48,120
Speaker 3: future on the Elon Musk Donald Trump breakup story and

3313
02:59:48,200 --> 02:59:52,119
Speaker 3: how it will affect the Republican Party. But the following segment,

3314
02:59:52,120 --> 02:59:55,040
Speaker 3: which we recorded on Wednesday, will essentially outline how we

3315
02:59:55,200 --> 02:59:58,160
Speaker 3: got right up to this point, all of these slow

3316
02:59:58,240 --> 03:00:02,880
Speaker 3: microaggressions and fractures that led to this much more explosive breakup.

3317
03:00:03,640 --> 03:00:05,920
Speaker 3: So enjoy that and keep your ears peeled for a

3318
03:00:06,000 --> 03:00:11,040
Speaker 3: future piece on Elon Musk Donald Trump's messy situation ship. So,

3319
03:00:11,800 --> 03:00:15,119
Speaker 3: Elan Musk donald Trump are now officially in their messy

3320
03:00:15,320 --> 03:00:18,160
Speaker 3: breakup phase where they're both trying to kind of play

3321
03:00:18,200 --> 03:00:20,640
Speaker 3: it cool, but resentment is clearly bubbling.

3322
03:00:21,680 --> 03:00:23,480
Speaker 4: So after report surface.

3323
03:00:23,200 --> 03:00:26,240
Speaker 3: Tobu the growing rifts between Musk and Trump, the White

3324
03:00:26,280 --> 03:00:30,320
Speaker 3: House gave Musk a one last farewell hurrah on Friday,

3325
03:00:30,400 --> 03:00:33,880
Speaker 3: May thirtieth, wear Musk sporting a black eye and a

3326
03:00:33,959 --> 03:00:37,520
Speaker 3: T shirt reading the Doge Father, was gifted a gold

3327
03:00:37,680 --> 03:00:40,960
Speaker 3: key to the White House by Donald Trump. A day later,

3328
03:00:41,080 --> 03:00:44,800
Speaker 3: Trump withdrew the nomination of Musk ally Jared Isaacman as

3329
03:00:44,920 --> 03:00:49,119
Speaker 3: NASA administrator, so as Musk's Special Government employee designation expired,

3330
03:00:49,840 --> 03:00:52,320
Speaker 3: nothing was renewed. They did not try to push him

3331
03:00:52,360 --> 03:00:56,560
Speaker 3: through as an more permanent advisor. He is essentially getting

3332
03:00:56,840 --> 03:01:01,080
Speaker 3: the soft boot. According to Axios, Musk had asked the

3333
03:01:01,080 --> 03:01:03,440
Speaker 3: White House about staying on as an advisor past the

3334
03:01:03,480 --> 03:01:07,720
Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty day Special Government employee threshold, but

3335
03:01:08,000 --> 03:01:12,160
Speaker 3: that was denied. Now, Musk has been reportedly disillusioned by

3336
03:01:12,240 --> 03:01:16,520
Speaker 3: the Wisconsin election and the unexpected difficulty in pushing through

3337
03:01:16,600 --> 03:01:19,840
Speaker 3: some of his Doge cuts, along with the growing frustration

3338
03:01:19,959 --> 03:01:24,080
Speaker 3: regarding the Liberation Day tariffs which affect his businesses. To

3339
03:01:24,360 --> 03:01:26,879
Speaker 3: add to the tension, according to The New York Times,

3340
03:01:27,160 --> 03:01:30,040
Speaker 3: Musk has been upset that Trump has been negotiating deals

3341
03:01:30,120 --> 03:01:35,560
Speaker 3: with Open AI instead of Musk's own competitor, Grock god.

3342
03:01:38,360 --> 03:01:41,680
Speaker 3: In late May, Musk posted on x the everything app

3343
03:01:41,760 --> 03:01:44,879
Speaker 3: quote back to spending twenty four to seven at work,

3344
03:01:45,160 --> 03:01:49,680
Speaker 3: I must be super focused on x slash XAI and tesla.

3345
03:01:50,000 --> 03:01:52,920
Speaker 4: Well, to be fair, Garrison, have you seen ch gpt

3346
03:01:53,840 --> 03:01:56,600
Speaker 4: ever speaking in the style of Jajjar Binks in such

3347
03:01:56,640 --> 03:02:01,240
Speaker 4: a convincin you know that is true? Right there? Yeah?

3348
03:02:01,400 --> 03:02:03,680
Speaker 4: Not well talking about the plight of the boors.

3349
03:02:05,240 --> 03:02:07,760
Speaker 3: So as Musk was preparing to exit the White House,

3350
03:02:07,959 --> 03:02:10,560
Speaker 3: he began airing his beef with the new big beautiful

3351
03:02:10,600 --> 03:02:11,160
Speaker 3: budget bill.

3352
03:02:11,280 --> 03:02:11,560
Speaker 4: Quote.

3353
03:02:11,879 --> 03:02:13,920
Speaker 3: I think a bill can be big or it can

3354
03:02:14,000 --> 03:02:16,680
Speaker 3: be beautiful, but I don't know if it can be both,

3355
03:02:17,440 --> 03:02:20,120
Speaker 3: telling CBS News quote, I was disappointed to see the

3356
03:02:20,200 --> 03:02:23,720
Speaker 3: massive spending bill, frankly, which increases the budget deficit, not

3357
03:02:24,160 --> 03:02:27,760
Speaker 3: just decreases it, and undermines the work that the Doge

3358
03:02:27,879 --> 03:02:32,640
Speaker 3: team is doing unquote. After this, Steven Miller started subtweeting

3359
03:02:32,800 --> 03:02:37,080
Speaker 3: Musk on x the Everything app outlining the different types

3360
03:02:37,120 --> 03:02:40,879
Speaker 3: of cuts that Doge can make versus reconciliation bills can make,

3361
03:02:41,360 --> 03:02:44,200
Speaker 3: and defend it the big Beautiful bill, calling it quote

3362
03:02:44,440 --> 03:02:48,760
Speaker 3: the single largest welfare reform in American history, along with

3363
03:02:49,000 --> 03:02:51,560
Speaker 3: the largest tax cut reform in American history, the most

3364
03:02:51,560 --> 03:02:56,360
Speaker 3: aggressive energy expiration in American history, and the strongest border

3365
03:02:56,440 --> 03:02:59,720
Speaker 3: bill in American history, all while reducing the deficit unquote,

3366
03:02:59,720 --> 03:03:03,400
Speaker 3: which it does not reduce the deficit. But now that

3367
03:03:03,680 --> 03:03:08,240
Speaker 3: Musk's White House exit has been more solidified, Musk's animosity

3368
03:03:08,360 --> 03:03:12,520
Speaker 3: towards Trump's main palsy bill has just skyrocketed, posting on

3369
03:03:12,720 --> 03:03:16,280
Speaker 3: June third on x Everything app, I'm sorry, but I

3370
03:03:16,400 --> 03:03:20,039
Speaker 3: just can't stay it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork filled

3371
03:03:20,160 --> 03:03:22,720
Speaker 3: congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination.

3372
03:03:23,200 --> 03:03:25,840
Speaker 1: Shame on those who voted for it. You know you

3373
03:03:26,040 --> 03:03:26,600
Speaker 1: did wrong.

3374
03:03:26,840 --> 03:03:34,080
Speaker 3: You know it. Similarly, Stephen Miller has also been crashing

3375
03:03:34,120 --> 03:03:37,760
Speaker 3: out on the Timeline, attempting to defend the bill and

3376
03:03:37,920 --> 03:03:41,160
Speaker 3: push back on Musk's attacks in a flurry of tweets,

3377
03:03:41,160 --> 03:03:44,359
Speaker 3: and one of which reads, quote the big beautiful budshet

3378
03:03:44,400 --> 03:03:48,560
Speaker 3: bill will increase by orders of magnitude the scope, scale,

3379
03:03:48,600 --> 03:03:51,040
Speaker 3: and speed of removing illegal and criminal aliens from the

3380
03:03:51,120 --> 03:03:53,520
Speaker 3: United States. For that reason alone, is the most essential

3381
03:03:53,560 --> 03:03:57,520
Speaker 3: piece of legislation currently under construction in the entire Western

3382
03:03:57,680 --> 03:04:03,200
Speaker 3: world in generations. Wow, now Steven seems pretty worked out,

3383
03:04:04,080 --> 03:04:07,000
Speaker 3: And I think this could actually have to do not

3384
03:04:07,560 --> 03:04:11,320
Speaker 3: just about Musk's tweets, but also maybe about Steven's own

3385
03:04:11,400 --> 03:04:15,640
Speaker 3: personal life, because yeah, Steven's animosity could relate to the

3386
03:04:15,760 --> 03:04:19,200
Speaker 3: fact that Musk seems to be stealing Stephen Miller's own

3387
03:04:19,400 --> 03:04:20,880
Speaker 3: life Katie Miller.

3388
03:04:21,760 --> 03:04:24,640
Speaker 1: Katie Miller was working in a top position.

3389
03:04:24,360 --> 03:04:27,240
Speaker 3: At DOME as a special government employee, and now that

3390
03:04:27,360 --> 03:04:30,400
Speaker 3: her designation has also expired, she is leaving the government

3391
03:04:30,760 --> 03:04:35,640
Speaker 3: to continue working with Musk full time, including arranging Musk's

3392
03:04:35,720 --> 03:04:39,680
Speaker 3: own interview appearances. It is not looking great, folks. The

3393
03:04:39,760 --> 03:04:45,000
Speaker 3: cockchair is getting warmed. I am not thrilled about Elon

3394
03:04:45,160 --> 03:04:47,920
Speaker 3: Musk possibly having a baby with Stephen Miller's life.

3395
03:04:48,040 --> 03:04:51,880
Speaker 4: This is really dark timeline stuff. I think all of

3396
03:04:51,959 --> 03:04:55,400
Speaker 4: them should be doing better, different different.

3397
03:04:55,600 --> 03:04:59,440
Speaker 3: I certainly can critique the way polyamory functions in, you know,

3398
03:04:59,560 --> 03:05:01,240
Speaker 3: and leftist anarchist faces.

3399
03:05:01,680 --> 03:05:02,640
Speaker 4: This is the most toxic.

3400
03:05:04,800 --> 03:05:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3401
03:05:05,600 --> 03:05:07,760
Speaker 1: This this is a night of wrong wives too, and

3402
03:05:07,959 --> 03:05:10,680
Speaker 1: hopefully it ends up for all of these motherfuckers like

3403
03:05:10,760 --> 03:05:11,680
Speaker 1: it did for him Buck.

3404
03:05:12,240 --> 03:05:13,160
Speaker 4: So yeah fu.

3405
03:05:13,959 --> 03:05:17,240
Speaker 3: Stephen Miller went on TV last week to like talk

3406
03:05:17,280 --> 03:05:19,240
Speaker 3: about how much he cares about his family.

3407
03:05:19,400 --> 03:05:21,760
Speaker 2: It's it's such it's such good timing.

3408
03:05:22,200 --> 03:05:24,000
Speaker 4: It's really dark for him.

3409
03:05:24,520 --> 03:05:28,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you marry Stephen Miller, it's because you're you're

3410
03:05:28,879 --> 03:05:31,040
Speaker 2: both the same kind of evil, and if that's the

3411
03:05:31,120 --> 03:05:33,320
Speaker 2: kind of person you are, Elon Musk is going to

3412
03:05:33,400 --> 03:05:35,800
Speaker 2: give you more opportunities to be the kind of evil

3413
03:05:35,840 --> 03:05:36,280
Speaker 2: you want to be.

3414
03:05:36,480 --> 03:05:38,240
Speaker 4: It's right, It's just obvious.

3415
03:05:38,560 --> 03:05:41,000
Speaker 3: Like this is like I I can't just tell if

3416
03:05:41,120 --> 03:05:43,920
Speaker 3: Musk is an upgrade or a lateral move from Stephen Miller.

3417
03:05:44,000 --> 03:05:47,920
Speaker 4: It's really tough to say. Yeah, this is very funny,

3418
03:05:48,080 --> 03:05:48,760
Speaker 4: but yeah, that is.

3419
03:05:49,680 --> 03:05:51,320
Speaker 3: This is one of the you know, last bits in

3420
03:05:51,360 --> 03:05:53,920
Speaker 3: the White House Elon musk saga. He really tried to

3421
03:05:54,200 --> 03:05:58,520
Speaker 3: like push forward this this this doge retire all government employees' agenda,

3422
03:05:59,120 --> 03:06:01,400
Speaker 3: and it ran into way more roadblocks than what he

3423
03:06:01,440 --> 03:06:03,560
Speaker 3: was expecting. And he seems really upset about that. And

3424
03:06:03,640 --> 03:06:05,360
Speaker 3: now he has to return to the private sector to

3425
03:06:05,360 --> 03:06:08,119
Speaker 3: save his failing businesses, which have only started to fail

3426
03:06:08,160 --> 03:06:12,920
Speaker 3: more now that he damaged an already kind of a troubling.

3427
03:06:12,520 --> 03:06:16,920
Speaker 4: Reputation the past few months. Yeah. So, yeah, that is

3428
03:06:17,160 --> 03:06:21,880
Speaker 4: the update on Elon Musk. Awesome, Well, everybody, we reported

3429
03:06:21,920 --> 03:06:24,520
Speaker 4: the news. I love reporting the news and that you

3430
03:06:24,640 --> 03:06:27,440
Speaker 4: did it. Goodbye, we reported the news.

3431
03:06:34,640 --> 03:06:37,800
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3432
03:06:37,879 --> 03:06:39,760
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3433
03:06:40,560 --> 03:06:43,000
Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3434
03:06:43,240 --> 03:06:46,240
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3435
03:06:46,360 --> 03:06:49,880
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3436
03:06:50,000 --> 03:06:51,920
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

3437
03:06:51,720 --> 03:06:54,600
Speaker 2: You listen to podcasts can now find sources for it

3438
03:06:54,640 --> 03:06:57,080
Speaker 2: could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions.

3439
03:06:57,440 --> 03:06:58,240
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.