WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 34 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.159 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:29.000 can make your own decisions. Oh, it could happen here 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.559 and earlier this week, not the week you're hearing this, 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.080 but the week we recorded it. It did it being 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:39.120 the end of Roe v. Wade via Supreme Court fiat, 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.000 and also the coming end of a hundred years of 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:46.000 social progress and less people get real organized and aggressive, 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.279 real fucking quick. I'm Robert Evans? Who else? Who else? 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:51.120 Do I got on with me? Today? Is there a? 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.920 Is there a? Is there a Christopher Wong on the line? Yes, 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:57.720 there there is one. There are many others, but but 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.760 I am me, yeah, the others do not count. Um? 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.240 Is there a Garrison Davis on the line? The only 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:05.560 one that I know of? That's right, that's right. We 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.319 exterminated the others in a in a brutal set of 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:12.520 purges Allah, Stalin Um, and then of course Sharene, Lonnie 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.959 and a Sharne. I'm here too. Would you like to 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:20.200 introduce Sophie of I mean, the one and only Sophie. Okay, 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:25.679 well that's us. And now today I am intensely excited 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.920 to introduce our guest, Um, who is a cool person 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:33.280 doing cool stuff to steal another one of our podcasters, 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:38.520 Cat Green of the Abortion Access Front Kat, Welcome to 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:40.480 the show. Thank you for coming on. I know this 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.320 has been a hell week for you. Oh yeah, thanks 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.119 for having me on. I really appreciate it. Now, Um, 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:48.280 you and I have a friend in common, and you 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:52.720 guys were actually at a national conference for abortion access 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.560 when the news dropped a little early. Do you want 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.600 to talk to us a little bit about what happened there? Yeah? 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:01.600 I mean, now that the conference is over, I can 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.080 say that we were in one of the worst cities 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:08.400 in the world to be in when all of this happened, Orlando, Florida, 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:17.160 which is basically made of paper sets. Right. Honestly, you 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.160 could have stopped that sentence. At one of the worst 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:23.720 cities to be in. Yeah, we had actually been out 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:28.200 to dinner at the oldest restaurant in Florida earlier that night, 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.880 and it was a lovely evening, um, even though like 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:36.040 some angry driver tried to kill our mutual friend over 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:42.480 a parking space Florida, over that part, you know, I 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:46.800 mean Florida. Yeah, you know. Also, the day had started 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:50.000 with their already being a bomb threat at a clinic 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.680 in Knoxville, so I was trying to help people find 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:57.079 information about that earlier in the day, and then um, 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.640 we went out to dinner thinking that we got to 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.680 relax x and then came back to the news as 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.200 it was breaking and into the lobby of our hotel 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:10.040 where um, the remaining providers and advocates that were there were, um, 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:17.160 just trying to make do Yeah. So cat At first 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.280 of all, I guess we should talk about what the 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.240 Abortion Access Front does and your job there, because this 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:24.720 is something I don't think a lot of people think 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:26.640 about it. One of the things that's become clear to 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.040 me from some of the reaction of some folks this 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.120 week on the more liberal side of things, is there 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.400 is a general unawareness of how violent and intense the 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:42.200 threats against abortion access providers have been for like forty years. Yeah, well. 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:45.880 So Abortion Access Front was founded by Liz Winstead, my 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.240 partner who was the co creator of The Daily Show, 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:53.400 and started as a progressive advocacy and messaging hub. And 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:57.560 so we were making funny videos about abortion and then 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:01.680 Trump got elected. Were like, Wow, our job's got way 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:03.560 more serious all of a sudden, And so we had 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:10.800 like volunteers in the week after election, and so we 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:16.360 started becoming matchmakers for volunteers to UM different clinics around 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:18.920 the country, and we were doing comedy tours where we 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:22.400 were trying to build community around the clinics um in 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.000 different states. And so we would do a comedy show, 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.599 have a have a provider on at the end to 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:29.640 talk about what was at stake locally, and then get 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.000 people to sign up to help because people didn't have 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:36.200 access to contractors in many of the places we were going, 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:38.200 you know, like we would go out and do landscaping 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:39.880 work when we were on tour because we were just 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:42.760 trying to help out wherever we could. And in the 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:46.799 course of that, the nice folks at the National Abortion 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:48.640 Federation reached out to us and we're like, we're a 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.520 little concerned about you putting providers on stage. Maybe we 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:56.200 should talk about your security plan. So they they were 0:04:56.240 --> 0:05:00.080 out with us the first two years, and UM, and 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.159 we're giving me information about people we needed to watch 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.320 out for. So I got way more involved in creating 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.640 these security plans around our shows and our tours, and 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.360 UM started doing a lot of my own research on 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:15.480 anti abortion extremists because as we started talking to more 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:19.720 people that clinic escorts in front of the clinics, we 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:23.040 were getting information about not just leadership, but the people 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:24.680 on the ground where they were the most afraid of. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.240 So then I was like, I wish I could just 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.200 put all this into something where I could look something 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:34.000 up via ZIP code and be able to tell who 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:36.320 I need to watch out for in a particular area 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.600 that didn't really exist, so UM, there was just a 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:45.000 whisper network of escorts. And then the leadership research that 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.719 NAP was doing, and so I started consoliding all my 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.760 research into a database for all of us to be 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:57.640 able to use and track incidents and organizations and bad 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:01.320 actors all over the country. I mean, that's that's extremely important, 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:05.880 but also extremely cool. UM. It is that you brought 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.640 up right at the start of your what you were 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:12.080 saying that there was a shooting at the Knoxville clinic. 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:17.920 There was a scare at the at the Knoxville Clinic 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.320 UM on Monday, and there was a there was an 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:25.760 arson at the Plan Parenthood in Knoxville this past New 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:28.720 Year's Eve. UM, and that same clinic, that same Plan 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.640 Parenthood that was burned down on New Year's Eve actually 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.040 had its front door shot out about a year earlier. 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.000 And uh, because this this is one of the more 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.400 frustrating cases. If you look this up, you can see 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.840 that like the fire department has said it was an arson. UM, 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.200 the a t F is investigating, the FBI is investigating. 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.479 They both get given the kind of boilerplate statements they've 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:54.560 given those instances, you don't see a lot from the 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.040 local police. I'm curious if you have anything to say 0:06:57.080 --> 0:06:59.600 about like the degree to which the local police have 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.760 been you full in responding to this. Well, I don't 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.960 work with the local police at all. Um. I you know, 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:12.360 I'm a TV person that got into uh doing extremists research. 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:16.000 I'm an editor and that I sort information right, So 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.840 like that made sense to me, but law enforcement doesn't 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:24.760 really take me too seriously. Um. But the people on 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:26.840 the ground have a lot of thoughts about who it 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:31.000 could be. Right, there are known people in the Knoxville 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.920 area who have caused all sorts of problems. There was 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.680 another arson at a different community center there too, UM, 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:43.040 and several white supremacists were arrested after protesting a Black 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:48.360 Lives Matter UH event maybe two years ago. And so 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:54.320 there's here's the thing. There's information about the Knoxville fire 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:58.440 that went out on telegram with an order of nine 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:03.040 angles Nazi claiming credit for it. And how hard can 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:10.200 it be to find a pagan Naxi in Knoxville? You 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:12.480 go to a goth club and be like, who's hit 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:17.440 you in the face here? You know? So, Yeah, I 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:21.679 feel like there are hindrances to the investigation. UM, and 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:24.480 a lot of the a lot of the activists on 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:29.240 the ground have good leads that are not being followed. Yeah. 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:32.400 I guess that's probably the most direct thing that can 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:36.000 be said about it. What so to the extent that like, 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.160 there's seemingly not a lot in a lot of these 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:45.439 states that is going to be done preemptively by law enforcement. UM. 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:50.000 When it comes to like actually tracing out the threats. Uh, 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.080 how much do you feel like you have a chance 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:55.760 to actually stop them from carrying out an action, and 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:57.360 how much of it do you feel is just like 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.800 we need to be documenting this for for when it happens. 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:04.640 You know, we're already getting early warning about events. Um, 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.720 we're already because we tracked the people who there are 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.520 a number of groups that create the same kind of 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:15.479 actions that are either invasions or blockades at various clinics, 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.440 and people who have been organizing around this for decades, 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.480 right so in tracking them and starting to put the 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:24.600 pieces together, we're already getting early warning about where they're 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:28.920 headed about who needs to be alerted. You know, there 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.559 have been at this point three incidents just like I'm 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.280 working with a group of volunteers. These are all people 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:39.040 who either escort at clinics or part of a part 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.720 of advocacy orgs that you know, are not getting paid 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.440 to do intel, but they they're invested in the cause, 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:49.679 and so they just follow this stuff on the regular 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:51.560 and we're all in touch with each other, and all 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:54.040 of a sudden it's like, oh, you know, this person 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.680 who's been a part of twelve other blockades in the 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.720 last three years, has been seeing going on a tour 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.199 and said, the next three stops, he's going to let's 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.520 tell all the clinics in the neighborhood what's happening, and 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.040 they can be a little bit better prepared. And that's 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:13.400 you know, I mean, honestly, because the abortion movement is 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:18.160 not super supported by law enforcement largely, um, it seemed 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.640 like a necessary thing for everybody to start keeping their 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.600 own records for their own safety. And that's really how 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:27.040 all this came together. Now, it's interesting to me that 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.199 you you brought up one of kind of the leads 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.079 suspects I guess you might say for the attack on 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.000 the Knoxville clinic was an O nine A dude, I'm 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.720 wondering what kind of the threats you're seeing. Obviously there's 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.680 decades of attacks on abortion access providers, including a lot 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:48.520 of fatal attacks, assassinations, acid attacks, numerous bombings and attempted bombings. 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.640 How has the character of who is making the threats 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.800 and who you see as threats started to change over 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:57.360 the recent years. I mean, the only and a thing 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.840 is a big yeah. That's that's weird. You know, we've 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:05.440 been following the same Christian nationalists for years and largely 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:07.600 they have the same playbook, they make a few changes 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.160 to it. A lot of them are older. You know, 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:14.079 it's lock in blocks or invasions. There's a few Catholics 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.400 who get really aggressive and like shove their way into stuff. 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:22.760 But it's not. Um, it hasn't been big surprises until recently, 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:25.600 and and a lot of the time in the past, 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.720 even when there was extreme violence happening amongst these people, 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:36.400 it was still sort of tied back to Christian identity stuff. 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.480 And now we're really starting to see it branching out. 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.000 And honestly, I blame I blame a few things. One, 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:50.199 just the Internet in general, but also the pandemic kind 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:55.240 of galvanized extremists across a lot of spheres, and um, 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:59.440 you started seeing a lot of Christian identity people that 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:03.000 weren't neces sarily militia people starting to mangle with militia people. 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:07.800 And then you know, militia people starting to mingle with 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:12.920 white suprise like over white supremacists, and um, so now 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:17.840 there's this cross breeding that's happening where like I mean, 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.240 the Gropers are a great example of just like this 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.920 weird amaulgam of things that didn't exist in the same 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:28.280 sphere before and now they're their own movement. Yeah. I 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:31.600 can't tell you how much I hate that. Like other 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.560 people who who aren't weirdos who spend all of their 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.360 time on Nazi telegram know what gropers are now. Yeah, 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.280 it's extremely frustrating. It's the worst thing in the world. Yeah. 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:42.840 One of the weird things about doing this type of 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:47.000 research for years is seeing like on YouTube like thumbnails 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:53.040 by like Stephen Colbert talking about like wacky like nonsense 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.880 that I've known about for years and him talking about 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.800 it like like it's this big new thing. They're always like, 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:01.800 oh wow, the the little tiny corner of the Internet 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.160 I was just watching and staring at now is like 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:10.560 it's something that isn't like a regular lives political lexicon, 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:16.120 and that's like horrible. Yeah, brogan posting about the Kali 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:21.280 you guy, you know, Yeah that was That was a 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:25.280 hard drinking night for me. That was a hard drinking 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.040 night for me. And it's so hard to explain to 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:32.120 people why it's so bad. You're like, it's just so 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:34.920 once back in the twenties, there was this lady named 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:44.960 Savitri Devy. Now, yeah, it's it's it's really troubling because um, 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:50.280 it's making its way into traditional Christian identity stuff, you know, um, 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.520 evangelical stuff, quiverful stuff is now starting to cross over 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.360 way more aggressively with militias stuff, and and with like 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.600 over white supremacist you know now see stuff. It's such 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.240 a problem because and this is something in Berto Echo, 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:06.800 you know, noted a long time ago, but like fascism 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.520 is deeply syncretic, right, and we're that's what we're talking 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:12.920 about right now, is its ability. It's like a Catamari. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:14.760 I refer back to that game a lot because it 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.840 does just keep picking things up, and um, we don't 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:23.040 really do that as much on like everyone from like 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:27.840 the center left to like weirdo anarchists and and and whatnot. 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.880 Like everyone's got their own little box, right, and there's 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.640 some interplay, but for the most part, people on the 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.800 left really like making boxes and people on the right. 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.800 It's just one big ball pit where everybody's smearing their 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:46.640 diseases and snot around And it's not great now. And 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.760 I mean, we need to figure out some sort of 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.120 solidarity because like even with the abortion protests that are 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:56.680 happening this week, we're already seeing people co opting things 0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:00.960 and turning it in really destructive directions. Um, I mean, 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:07.680 you know, the entire cult of Boba back and you know, 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.280 I mean I'm actually worried about that as at this 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.960 point it feels like a legit astroturp. It doesn't feel 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.400 like they're fighting with the actual abortion providers and saying that, 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.640 you know that, like abortion funds are a problem. It's 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.440 like those are the people actually walking to walk and 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.200 doing anything about this. What are you doing besides showing 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.800 up in bloody pants and picking fights with cops, Like yeah, 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:35.160 it's this. You know. One of the more uplifting stories 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.040 that's come out recently is that in France, um, the 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.440 left is doing a popular front again in order to 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.360 kind of rest control of the government from mcrown. Will 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:45.600 see how it works, right, This is just something that's 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.120 kind of been announced, and but this is something like that. 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:49.920 This has happened a few times in the past in 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.440 different formulations, and I do kind of it would be 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:58.360 nice to see a broad popular front in favor of 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.600 abortion access on a very blunt level, but that would 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.800 involve people not just getting on board with trying to 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.600 wrest control from the right back electorally, but people supporting 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:10.720 a legalism, a lot of people are going to have 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:12.920 to do things that are not legal in order to 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.560 maintain access to reproductive health care. You know, there's the 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.280 other side of it is like hardline anarchists will have 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.080 to realize that working with libs is occasionally useful um 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:26.640 and using them as body shields sometimes can can let 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:31.680 you do more illegalist type practice. So there's there's both 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:33.960 in terms of like people who are really dogmatic on 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.440 the left being like, okay, there's types. There's certain times 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.280 where this type of this this intersectionalism can be really useful, 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:44.040 and then people who are less radical having to be 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:48.840 okay with more radical tactics happening. I mean, my biggest 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.920 fear right now is the mass criminalization event that's about 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:57.400 to happen. Right you know, no matter what, people's pregnancies 0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.800 are going to be criminalized in various forms. If you 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:02.120 have a miscarriage, it's going to be criminalized. You're going 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:05.720 to have to be more cautious about how you use 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.760 your phone and what you say in the emergency room, 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.280 and you know, what you say to people in your 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.159 own family. And I don't think that most people on 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.840 our side are prepared to have that level of caution 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.560 or divorce themselves from technology and the way that kind 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.040 of needs to happen for people to stay safe. I'm 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:30.560 also worried that like, as a movement, um, we're not 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:35.480 really identifying the fact that it's all about bodily autonomy, 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.640 and so that means everybody trying to access trance health 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:44.679 care is as much or more so at risk. And um, 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.040 you know, and we have so much to learn from 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.720 the sex work industry about all of this, right, Like, 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.960 so much of what is happening now was built on 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:59.920 like the permissiveness of what people accepted under FOSTA and SESTA. Absolutely, 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.560 and um, you know that's how all of us got 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:06.520 de prioritized and stupid algorithms in the first place. And 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:08.040 and then all of a sudden weren't allowed to put 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:13.440 ads out for like legitimate healthcare services. And keeping ourselves 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:17.520 in boxes is really doing everybody a disservice. Everybody that's 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:21.480 been criminalized, everybody who just trying to exist is at 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:26.000 risk right now. Is in this together? Yeah, it's um. 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.320 You know, there's that famous quote from who was a 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:31.920 minister of some sort during you know, the Weimar years 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:35.840 about first they came for you know, YadA YadA, YadA, um, 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.480 And it is like it's always true with fascists, But 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.880 that doesn't mean that people ever spot it while it's happening, right, 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:46.360 because there's there's very few groups that mainstream America has 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:50.160 less inherent sympathy for than sex workers. And the reality 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:52.280 is that they were testing a lot of this out 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.840 on those people because they are marginalized. And I guess 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.600 one of the things I hope we'll see and that 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.760 might have some positive developments is that there are a 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:02.720 lot of sex workers out there with a lot of 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:06.560 opset tips that they can give other people. Now, um, 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:09.359 it would be dope if you know there were folks 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:11.960 like setting up clinics and stuff in that, because I 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:13.960 think there's a lot of information that does need to 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:16.080 get shared with folks who are not used to thinking 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:18.720 about any of the stuff they're doing is illegal. I've 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.440 been seeing stuff on you know, Facebook, among kind of 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:24.320 friends of mine who are more middle of the road 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.280 and family members who are pretty much centrist politically, where 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.080 they're talking about like, Hey, if you need to go 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.520 on a camping trip in another state, I'll take you 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:33.919 one year camping trip, and it's like I get it, 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:36.960 Like it's great to express solidarity, but will you feel 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.000 that way when it's actually a felony and people are 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:41.919 getting twenty years sentences for doing it, right, Like, because 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:45.560 that's where we're headed, you know. Yeah, yeah, I mean 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:48.440 people need to get more serious about moving their data 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:52.320 out of the country altogether, you know, like thinking about 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:56.840 what can be subpoena. Yeah. The folks at Hacking and 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.119 Hustling are doing really amazing work to spread sort of 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.480 uh sex work and sex work adjacent upset knowledge to 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:08.600 other communities too, Like they're amazing. Um, that's great. I 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:11.040 was not aware of what they were doing. Um, would 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.359 you mind giving like a little brief overview of what 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.520 that is? Try to reach out to them, But I've 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:18.560 only been in a couple of sessions with them, but 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:23.080 they're they're generally just sharing information about like tightening up 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:28.359 your digital footprint and also being conscious about how having 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:32.560 multiple like if you have to have a clandistine identity online, 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.920 how you can keep that from leaking over into any 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.560 of your other digital identities. Right. It's it's and I 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.280 mean it's a really important distinction because even if you 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:47.080 have something like a SOCC account on something like Facebook. 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:50.160 Based on how you set it up and what other 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.080 accounts that's connected to and who your friend. In that process, 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:55.760 it can very easily find its way back to you 0:20:55.840 --> 0:21:00.520 and the people connected to you. So how do streams separate? Yeah, 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:03.560 I mean whenever somebody angers this podcast, we have Garrison 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:07.320 tracked them down. It's very easy. Yeah, that is that 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:09.520 is that is true. I have a whole whole folder 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.760 of people dropping their kids off at school. That's right, 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:17.080 So you know, keep your eye out, Hello Fresh, don't 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:21.080 screw with us again. Or that one reviewer that said 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.400 that there was the woman on the podcast who was annoying. 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.760 I know who you are. I was able to I 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:31.480 was able to track back via your Apple account. Just one. 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:37.320 Just somebody tried to request access to one of my 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:40.920 folders that's connected to We had a tenure sixth document 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:43.320 where we had identified a bunch of people, and so 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.120 I just linked it to you know, Google Drive things 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.560 so that press people could get to stuff. Somebody just 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:51.480 out of nowhere trying to access one of them the 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.159 other day and requested permission. I'm just like, all I 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:56.679 had to do is look up your name in the 0:21:56.680 --> 0:22:04.360 word abortion, like, come on and try a little harder. Um, 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:09.520 So cat, I'm wondering number one for people who are 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:13.480 like pissed and feeling helpless, there are things that folks 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.520 can do to help, assuming you live in a state 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:18.919 that there's anything at all around, because like a lot 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:21.120 of people who are hundreds of files away from any 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:23.600 kind of clinic. But if you're not, I know there 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:25.200 are ways people going to help. Do you have any 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:28.280 kind of pieces of advice for folks interested in being 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:31.120 of use? There are so many things, right, I mean, 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:33.679 right now, I think the biggest thing that the movement 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.520 needs more than anything is abortion funds and practical support 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:40.520 funds really need financial help because they are paying to 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:44.760 move people around as night as needed to get them care, right, 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.840 So the money thing is always the obvious. But um, 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.280 We're actually having an event on July sev that is 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:54.679 sort of an orientation day for new people coming to 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:57.080 the movement who want to volunteer and don't know where. 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.400 So we're going to cover things like, I you become 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:03.439 a clinic escort, what it means to volunteer on like 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:08.440 an abortion fund or practical support hotline, um, how you 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:10.560 can get involved in lobbying groups, how you can get 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:14.040 involved in direct action groups and sort of pre vetting 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:16.639 people and then getting them out to the organizations that 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.680 actually have capacity to take on volunteers right now, because 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:21.720 a lot of what's happening, like we already saw it 0:23:21.720 --> 0:23:25.000 in Texas where people really wanted to volunteer to help 0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:28.960 in Texas after SPA came down, but they were doing 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.520 things like calling the Abortion Fund hotline to try and 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:34.520 get to people and it's like, no, you can't clog 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:38.040 up the hotline. That doesn't help anybody. So we're trying 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:39.920 to take some of the lift off of the organs 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:43.439 that are already overtaxed that their people, give them some 0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:46.720 background information, give them a better idea of what the 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:50.680 landscape is in the movement, and then make the connections 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:53.439 to organizations that have the capacity to take them on. 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:58.800 So it's called Operations Save Abortion UM and we're gonna 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.680 do a live dream and house parties all over the country. 0:24:02.800 --> 0:24:06.000 Awesome people are either watching the streams we're doing or 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:08.760 having their own local people to talk about how people 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:12.720 can get active locally in more direct ways. Yeah, and 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:15.520 there's stuff like being an escort, which is is something 0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:19.119 I've been learning a little bit more about recently. UM. 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:21.359 I guess one of the things I'm interested in is like, 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:28.480 uh from a perspective of actually like keeping folks safe. Um, 0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:30.400 is that something that you feel has like a lot 0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:34.040 of value or is that something that yeah, Um, and 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:36.400 is that like people would want to like look at. 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:39.399 Are there kind of resources for for getting involved with that? 0:24:40.080 --> 0:24:42.760 There are? Clinic escorting is a little tricky right now 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:44.760 because there's a whole lot of clinics that don't know 0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:47.439 if they're going to be open in eight weeks. So 0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:50.360 right now, well that's all shaking out. I mean, if 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:53.600 you already have an established relationship with your local clinic, 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:57.359 definitely check in with them. UM. Clinics in states that 0:24:57.359 --> 0:25:02.080 are going to see a surge, um, Pennsylvania, Illinois, New York, 0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:04.480 I mean really anywhere that's still going to have abortion 0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:08.600 after the twenty states fall, the entire West coast, uh, 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:14.159 New Mexico, right, Uh, Minnesota, they are all going to 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:18.840 need escorts. UM. Which clinic escorting is walking a person 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:23.160 from their car to the clinic door past protesters. Um. 0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:27.960 It's generally I would say clinics are non engagement clinics. 0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:30.159 So doing this means that you're there for the patient. 0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:34.320 You're not there to get in a protesters sphace. Some 0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:40.360 clinics have enough of a protest presence, like UM Clinics 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:44.760 in Charlotte Clinics in Jackson, Mississippi, where they have they 0:25:44.760 --> 0:25:47.120 split it up and they have people that are there 0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:49.640 for the patients and people that are there to distract 0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:54.000 protesters and sort of pull them away from the door, 0:25:54.160 --> 0:25:56.280 you know, just get them a little bit removed so 0:25:56.320 --> 0:25:58.960 that they can get patients past them. This is a 0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:02.080 little bit less pleasant to a question, but you know, 0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:04.240 I've done for a different cause a lot of the 0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:07.080 same research where you're like spending time in these dark 0:26:07.200 --> 0:26:10.199 corners of the Internet making notes of people and threats 0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:13.760 being made, and um, I remember the horrible feeling of 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:16.680 like having a specific kind of thing that hadn't quite 0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:19.480 happened before that I was sure was going to happen, 0:26:19.480 --> 0:26:23.480 and then the fucking thing happens. Um, are there particular 0:26:23.680 --> 0:26:28.560 things you are worried about in especially like once this 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:31.920 comes through like that, that are kind of on your horizon, 0:26:32.000 --> 0:26:33.879 Like is there stuff that that people need to be 0:26:33.960 --> 0:26:37.000 kind of preparing for in terms of like an escalation 0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:41.720 in direct action against clinics. Absolutely, I mean we're already 0:26:41.840 --> 0:26:48.240 seeing increased threats against clinics UM. This this bomb threat 0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:51.240 the other day was a test balloon, right, But there 0:26:51.240 --> 0:26:56.440 are organizations like POW who are actively aggressively invading clinics 0:26:56.440 --> 0:27:00.240 on the regular and doing things like stealing product of 0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:03.639 conception Fetle remains right and parading them out to the 0:27:03.640 --> 0:27:08.480 public and naming doctors UM in an effort to get 0:27:08.480 --> 0:27:13.880 them hurt. Right, it's it's stochastic terrorism. They're not they 0:27:13.920 --> 0:27:16.040 are not going to be the ones to pull the trigger. 0:27:16.240 --> 0:27:18.560 They are just putting it out there so that somebody 0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:21.399 else does the dirty work for them. And so many 0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:24.280 people are guilty of that. Right. The church at Plant 0:27:24.359 --> 0:27:28.320 Parenthood is another good example. And they've had you know, 0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:32.600 they've had a long presence and spoken um. They moved 0:27:32.680 --> 0:27:39.119 to Knoxville, Tennessee, they've set up church plants in Birmingham, 0:27:39.200 --> 0:27:44.040 and they've they've been throughout um Oregon and and in 0:27:44.119 --> 0:27:47.159 Oregon they were hiring the Crow Boys as their security, 0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:51.640 which eventually, unsurprisingly turned into a big fight when counter 0:27:51.680 --> 0:27:56.080 protesters showed up, the police showed up, tear guessed everybody, 0:27:56.480 --> 0:28:00.159 it's like, how is what? How is this church to? 0:28:01.400 --> 0:28:03.480 You know, like, what is anybody trying to get out 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:06.159 of this? And and so there's a lot of people 0:28:06.320 --> 0:28:08.040 who have been putting it out there for a long 0:28:08.119 --> 0:28:11.919 time that there's all this other ring language of calling 0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:15.359 people demons because it makes them easier to kill. There's 0:28:15.440 --> 0:28:18.520 going to be clinic violence. I mean, there's going to 0:28:18.560 --> 0:28:21.120 be more clinic violence. I should say. All of this 0:28:21.200 --> 0:28:24.000 is violent. It's violent to have people out there screaming 0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:26.400 at you and calling you a horror with a giant 0:28:26.480 --> 0:28:32.080 sign of fetus, you know parts and then but I 0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:35.680 mean they're really waiting for somebody to like more buildings 0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:41.040 on fire or shoot somebody, and it's going to happen. Yeah, 0:28:41.080 --> 0:28:44.000 Well does anyone else have anything to get into here? 0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:50.440 On that happy note that happy think. It's just it's 0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:53.160 not going to be like actual Nazi extremists that do 0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:56.560 a lot of these attacks either, I think, especially with 0:28:56.640 --> 0:29:00.720 it of being especially if if like if rov Wood 0:29:00.800 --> 0:29:05.400 does get fully taken away, that will justify pretty violent 0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:08.240 action in the minds of like most regular Christians. Even 0:29:08.240 --> 0:29:11.640 when I grew up in like a pretty evangelical uh, 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:15.240 type of community. Those types of attacks against planned parenthood 0:29:15.720 --> 0:29:19.040 were almost that like there was the there was the 0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:21.959 overall feeling that they were like celebrated, and people who 0:29:22.000 --> 0:29:24.680 would do it would be lauded it as like biblical heroes, 0:29:25.520 --> 0:29:28.840 um for for like for like just our sending a 0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:30.840 building like that. That was very much the sense that 0:29:30.880 --> 0:29:32.560 I got when I was a kid, Like I I 0:29:32.680 --> 0:29:36.920 remember thinking thinking those thoughts, like, oh, that's what like 0:29:36.960 --> 0:29:39.080 a good people do. Like that's like people who are 0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:42.760 brave will go and burn down an abortion clinic. They 0:29:42.760 --> 0:29:45.880 were openly celebrated. You know, the Army of God would 0:29:45.920 --> 0:29:50.080 have the White Rose banquet to raise money by auctioning 0:29:50.160 --> 0:29:52.680 off the personal effects of people who had bombed clinics 0:29:52.680 --> 0:29:55.320 and shot doctors. And you see a lot of that 0:29:56.160 --> 0:29:59.800 mirrored now in things like the Saints Calendar, right, and 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:05.400 and so you see you see neo Nazis and other 0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:11.000 white supremacists promoting the Saints Calendar and then directing people 0:30:11.120 --> 0:30:14.440 to the Army of God website. And then you see 0:30:14.760 --> 0:30:21.680 Christian nationalists finding accelerationist handbooks and having that knowledge now, right, 0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:25.520 and so they can have the knowledge and loosely collaborate 0:30:25.560 --> 0:30:28.200 without ever having to say, oh, I'm a part of 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:32.320 you know Front or the Prowboys or whatever. Like, they 0:30:32.360 --> 0:30:35.240 won't see themselves as extremists. They'll see themselves as like 0:30:35.320 --> 0:30:38.600 regular Christians. They'll see them as regular Conservatives. And what 0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:41.920 they're doing is like is like sanctioned by God and 0:30:41.960 --> 0:30:46.360 it's like good, righteous, holy work. Um. So I think 0:30:46.360 --> 0:30:49.000 that is definitely something to keep your eye on because 0:30:49.040 --> 0:30:51.320 it's not all going to be like skull mask wearing 0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:55.160 people doing bomb threats. It's going to be like regular, 0:30:55.400 --> 0:30:59.160 like regular conservative Christians who are who are like been 0:30:59.320 --> 0:31:02.320 on this words tracked the past the past few decades. 0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:05.400 Most of the people that we track are are not 0:31:06.120 --> 0:31:10.160 part openly part of extremist group well not openly part 0:31:10.280 --> 0:31:15.960 of like known militant extremists, right, but um, a lot 0:31:16.040 --> 0:31:21.840 of them are hold office. You know, there is Derek 0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:26.680 Evans was in West Virginia. You've got um John Jacob 0:31:26.760 --> 0:31:33.000 in Indiana, like the whole Oklahoma contingent, like Abolish Human 0:31:33.040 --> 0:31:35.720 Abortion has really just become a lobbying group that's trying 0:31:35.720 --> 0:31:39.120 to get people in office wherever they can. There's I mean, 0:31:39.160 --> 0:31:44.240 they've gotten really strategic about getting people into smaller um 0:31:44.480 --> 0:31:47.720 legislative roles so that they have more power to push 0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:52.720 things and and so that they look more respectable. Yeah, 0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:55.080 and it's that leads kind of to another point, which 0:31:55.120 --> 0:31:58.200 is that when you get right down to it, once 0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:01.800 the ruling comes through finally, as it looks like it will, 0:32:02.320 --> 0:32:04.880 the vast majority of violence that's going to be done 0:32:04.920 --> 0:32:08.480 to abortion providers and too people seeking abortions into people 0:32:08.520 --> 0:32:11.640 supporting them, is going to be done by police. Like 0:32:11.840 --> 0:32:15.480 that's the that's the eventual end game here. Yeah, And 0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:17.800 that's that's the thing I'm the most afraid of, right 0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:21.320 because it's so much easier to turn somebody in than 0:32:21.360 --> 0:32:24.280 it is to actually attack a person physically or a 0:32:24.280 --> 0:32:26.840 building even, And so that's what it's going to be. 0:32:26.920 --> 0:32:29.400 It's going to be people calling in their neighbors, calling 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:36.640 in something from the hospital, turning in their grandkids. You know, well, 0:32:38.120 --> 0:32:41.000 is there anything right now that's making you optimistic? Cat, 0:32:41.120 --> 0:32:43.880 Not to put you on the spot, No, No, it's okay. 0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:46.360 I thought about that a lot. I mean, honestly, the 0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:51.280 people working in this are so dedicated to helping people 0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:56.640 that that always gives me hope. And I genuinely feel 0:32:56.680 --> 0:33:00.880 like there's enough of us that have plans. Um. You know, 0:33:01.040 --> 0:33:03.320 even if even if not everybody's on board with the 0:33:03.360 --> 0:33:05.960 same stuff, there are enough people really doing the hard 0:33:06.000 --> 0:33:09.800 work and being pragmatic about what's happening and not just 0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:13.280 cowing under the pressure of it that are energized by 0:33:13.400 --> 0:33:18.200 helping people that I think there will always be people helping. 0:33:18.720 --> 0:33:21.880 They might not always be visible, but they're there and 0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:27.560 it's just going to be harder to find them. So yeah, Um, well, 0:33:27.560 --> 0:33:30.720 thank you so much. UM. Do you have anything else 0:33:30.800 --> 0:33:32.800 you'd like to plug before we kind of roll out here? 0:33:32.800 --> 0:33:37.360 Any place people could donations are volunteer if they're into that. Oh, 0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:41.000 I mean, you can always donate to Abortion Access Front 0:33:41.000 --> 0:33:45.000 where a front dot org and um, there's a volunteer 0:33:45.040 --> 0:33:48.959 form there. But also if you want to participate in 0:33:48.960 --> 0:33:52.000 our event on July sevent you can go to Operations 0:33:52.000 --> 0:33:57.280 Save Abortion dot com. Uh, and there's a registration form 0:33:57.320 --> 0:34:00.800 there to get involved in the event. Awesome. UM, well, 0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:03.479 thank you so much, Kat Green. You are amazing and 0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:08.720 what you do is incredibly important. Um. And to everybody else, UM, 0:34:09.080 --> 0:34:13.719 go find some way to help or you know, at 0:34:13.800 --> 0:34:18.520 least uh, it's easy to pee in a water balloon 0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:43.520 and sorry. Okay, well, let's that it happened here work, Yes, nice, 0:34:43.840 --> 0:34:49.680 nice introducing you got it? Yeah, this is this is 0:34:49.760 --> 0:34:53.080 it could happen here at the podcast where it has happened. 0:34:55.640 --> 0:34:59.919 Your host Christopher Wong with me. We have like seve 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:04.799 and teen thousand people. We've got Garrison, yep, got We've 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:11.839 got We've got Sophie, I've got Robert allegedly, We've got 0:35:11.840 --> 0:35:15.520 we've got Sharine, the first time friend of the pod, 0:35:15.600 --> 0:35:24.200 Sharene Hello, teammate. And we have returning I think, yes, yeah, returning. 0:35:24.239 --> 0:35:30.960 Well I'm trying, I'm trying to think, but yeah, yeah, yes, 0:35:32.000 --> 0:35:35.600 and creator of our website that I love. I'm so glad. 0:35:35.600 --> 0:35:39.080 I'm so glad you like it. Love. Yeah, And we 0:35:39.200 --> 0:35:42.960 we are gathered here today to talk about something that sucks, 0:35:43.160 --> 0:35:48.960 which is, uh, the elite draft of Samuel Alito's decision 0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:54.680 to overturn Rope Wade. It's now we're all mostly angry 0:35:54.719 --> 0:35:57.960 that somebody dared to leak a draft and upset the 0:35:57.960 --> 0:36:01.600 sanctity of the Supreme Courts deliberation in process. Right right, 0:36:01.680 --> 0:36:06.120 That's definitely the thing that's been keeping me awake at night. Yeah. Yeah, 0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:08.839 A bunch of elderly ghouls who refused to give up 0:36:08.840 --> 0:36:11.880 their grip on power can't deliberate in privacy. What does 0:36:11.920 --> 0:36:18.920 this world come to? M Yes, it's been me all along. 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:24.400 How can I trust the Supreme Corps if not? Everything 0:36:24.440 --> 0:36:29.560 happens in secret all of the time, always my in. 0:36:30.080 --> 0:36:32.359 On a serious note, I would like to start this 0:36:32.440 --> 0:36:35.920 by stating my primary attitude towards the Supreme Court is 0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:43.560 that more stairways should be greased. Um anyway, that's my contrabation. 0:36:44.280 --> 0:36:50.160 We have been big proponents of horse loop for years, years, years, 0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:54.319 and this stands continues. I think horse loop could solve 0:36:54.360 --> 0:36:59.279 a lot of problems, could so many. So I do 0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:02.400 think it is especially cross that like there's the whole 0:37:02.400 --> 0:37:05.479 side of media people who are making the story out 0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:08.440 that oh no, look at this leak. That is the 0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:11.280 worst thing to happen in human history. I can't believe 0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:16.080 this got leaked, and that is like a pretty dominant 0:37:16.840 --> 0:37:20.560 narrative going on for like over half the country, even 0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:23.759 like even on like CNN. That was like the first thing. 0:37:24.440 --> 0:37:27.240 It's pretty funny too because like the original road decision 0:37:27.280 --> 0:37:30.360 also got leaked. I had the text, but like the 0:37:30.400 --> 0:37:32.919 way it was the ruined verdict was gonna go also 0:37:32.960 --> 0:37:36.000 got leaked. It's like, okay, it's like this is actually 0:37:36.719 --> 0:37:41.520 consistent about this. It's clearly, like I I get why 0:37:41.560 --> 0:37:44.600 the Republicans who are doing it right, because it's a 0:37:44.640 --> 0:37:46.840 way number one that they can pretend to be victims. 0:37:47.400 --> 0:37:49.440 There's a lot of people comparing it to like the 0:37:49.560 --> 0:37:55.600 January sixth and ship. Um, yeah, sorry, it's the comparison 0:37:55.680 --> 0:38:00.600 to be made. There is not that the leak happened, no, 0:38:02.640 --> 0:38:05.520 and like should it's like it leaked, Yeah, okay, how 0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:08.400 about the fact that the information instide leak is dangerous 0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:10.240 and it's going to cause a bunch of people today. Also, 0:38:10.440 --> 0:38:13.200 there should be more leaks of government things all the time. 0:38:13.360 --> 0:38:18.200 That's actually yeah, yeah, yeah. The government should not be 0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:25.480 allowed to keep secrets Like I'm sorry, we don't. They're 0:38:25.520 --> 0:38:28.480 really they're called civil servants and they're doing everything in secret, 0:38:28.520 --> 0:38:31.239 like we're supposed to know. I mean, in the perfect world, 0:38:31.440 --> 0:38:35.200 they're spying on us. We have no privacy. Yeah, yeah, exactly, 0:38:35.360 --> 0:38:40.040 Like it's only fair. It's also like you, I mean, 0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:42.600 I guess maybe we'll eventually find out who did it, 0:38:42.640 --> 0:38:44.680 but like it's also we don't have to assume that 0:38:44.719 --> 0:38:46.600 it was a progressive that did it. For example, Like 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:49.000 I think the conservatives have even more of a motive 0:38:49.160 --> 0:38:52.760 to release it because they're like mobilizing. There are people 0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:56.719 to agree and be like, yes, do we do we 0:38:56.760 --> 0:38:59.560 want to do the weird Screme Court inside baseball ship? 0:39:00.719 --> 0:39:04.440 Like okay, so the weird inside baseball ship is So 0:39:04.520 --> 0:39:07.440 this is a draft decision, right, this decision Like hasn't 0:39:07.680 --> 0:39:08.800 that this is this is not the law of the 0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:12.040 land yet. And the thing with draft decisions that they change, 0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:16.360 and the thing that's happening here is there's this weird split. 0:39:16.440 --> 0:39:19.520 There's there's like a three to to split on like 0:39:19.840 --> 0:39:23.839 what actually, yeah, that that makes up seven? Right, I'm 0:39:23.880 --> 0:39:29.440 like what actually? Because like the five conservative justices like 0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:33.760 don't like row, but there's a mean, particularly with like Roberts, 0:39:34.280 --> 0:39:36.480 there's a there's kind of a split on like how 0:39:36.520 --> 0:39:38.480 far they want to take it. And so part of 0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:41.560 what could be going on here is like so this 0:39:41.680 --> 0:39:45.799 the version of decision that got leaked is like this 0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:48.480 is basically the most extreme thing they could possibly do. 0:39:49.640 --> 0:39:55.440 I Arranging impacts on how we view personal rights. Uh, 0:39:56.840 --> 0:39:59.279 I mean, it's it's they can talk about it later 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:01.200 and like this is you know, this is the thing. 0:40:01.239 --> 0:40:05.000 Like like the nerd like Supreme Court watchers like didn't 0:40:05.040 --> 0:40:07.040 think that like this would be the thing, right, They 0:40:07.040 --> 0:40:08.719 didn't think they would just straight up overturned Row. They 0:40:08.719 --> 0:40:10.280 thought they would ship at it a little bit first, 0:40:10.480 --> 0:40:12.520 like go after Casey. But like no, no, no, that 0:40:12.600 --> 0:40:15.560 they're just they're just straight up going after Row. And 0:40:16.280 --> 0:40:19.399 part of what could be the strategy here is like 0:40:19.440 --> 0:40:21.720 a lot of Okay, so the liberals on the Supreme 0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:26.720 Court like have been effectless and powerless for an enormous 0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:28.759 amount of time, and a lot of what they spend 0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:30.880 their time doing is trying to like get one or 0:40:30.920 --> 0:40:34.640 two sentences changed to be slightly less bad. And this 0:40:34.719 --> 0:40:37.360 could be an attempt to get the other conservative justice 0:40:37.400 --> 0:40:41.400 is to like force them to rally around. Aldo's like 0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:44.399 unbelievably hard and there were there were thing that that's 0:40:44.400 --> 0:40:46.640 worth noting about this is that like Aldo, Aldo is 0:40:46.680 --> 0:40:51.120 like I don't know, I mean cavn Cavanaugh. Okay. So 0:40:51.239 --> 0:40:55.560 for for a very long time, Aldo was like broadly 0:40:55.600 --> 0:40:57.600 considered by the legal community to be the worst legal 0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:00.359 mind in the Supreme Court. Like he's a clown. He's 0:41:00.400 --> 0:41:02.560 like he's he's legal reasoning is is really bad. Like 0:41:02.600 --> 0:41:04.440 even even by this, like you know, and this this 0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:07.040 has changed with and become a Barrett and cav It 0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:09.480 all to it to some extent, but like this is 0:41:09.520 --> 0:41:11.040 not this is not a guy. This is not like 0:41:11.040 --> 0:41:13.400 a subtle like a subtle legal mind. This is like 0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:15.040 this is like a bull in a china shop who 0:41:15.120 --> 0:41:16.880 you throw out when you need to just like hit 0:41:16.960 --> 0:41:21.239 something with a hammer, right, and so you know, like yeah, 0:41:21.400 --> 0:41:23.600 part part of what the strategy seems to be is 0:41:23.640 --> 0:41:26.080 to try to try to coerce the other justices who 0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:31.680 are like like like Roberts, who was like slightly less 0:41:31.719 --> 0:41:34.840 fanatical than Aldo, is to try to get them to 0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:39.000 rally around this like incredibly maximalist, hardlined not only going 0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:41.480 after Row, but going after like a whole bunch of 0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:43.839 other stuff that we will get to in a second. Yeah. 0:41:43.880 --> 0:41:45.640 So that that's that's the that's the sort of Supreme 0:41:45.719 --> 0:41:51.520 Court insight baseball ship. That is possibly part of what's 0:41:51.560 --> 0:41:54.600 going on with the league. But yeah, I mean, to 0:41:54.640 --> 0:41:57.200 be honest, I think that's whatever is going on in 0:41:57.200 --> 0:42:02.040 the league. The primary topics of interest to most people 0:42:02.120 --> 0:42:04.479 are going to be number one, the degree to which 0:42:04.560 --> 0:42:07.120 the rights trying to use this to distract from what 0:42:07.160 --> 0:42:10.160 they're actually doing. Uh. And more to the point, the 0:42:10.239 --> 0:42:12.839 concerted the fact like this is what we're actually dealing 0:42:12.840 --> 0:42:15.640 with here is like the culmination of forty is years 0:42:15.640 --> 0:42:21.080 of pretty relentless um. I mixed it pretty relentless electoralism 0:42:21.200 --> 0:42:25.280 um married to a very effective direct action terrorism campaign 0:42:25.400 --> 0:42:31.120 that has netted the right a tremendous uh win here. Yeah, 0:42:31.239 --> 0:42:34.520 I mean like and I feel like this it's a crisis, 0:42:35.000 --> 0:42:37.759 but it hasn't been treated as a crisis. And like 0:42:37.840 --> 0:42:41.520 when fucking Democrats campaign, this is like such an urgent matter, 0:42:41.600 --> 0:42:44.400 and as soon as they're elected, it's suddenly like not 0:42:44.560 --> 0:42:47.239 as urgent. Like look at fucking Biden. He ran on 0:42:47.719 --> 0:42:52.080 literally caught like codifying it. He ran with that promise 0:42:52.600 --> 0:42:56.239 and obviously that didn't happen. Um. And then there's also, 0:42:56.320 --> 0:42:59.000 like to Robert's point from earlier, these justices are just 0:42:59.120 --> 0:43:02.879 like ancient and don't give up their power. And I mean, 0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:05.279 there's no use in pointing fingers, even though I like 0:43:05.360 --> 0:43:07.680 to do it. So like RBG, for example, like if 0:43:07.719 --> 0:43:11.480 she had just retired at her fucking time, maybe there 0:43:11.520 --> 0:43:14.120 would be like one more justice that could fucking help 0:43:14.200 --> 0:43:16.960 us out. But there's a lot. I mean, she's got 0:43:17.000 --> 0:43:19.279 her share of the blame. There's also the fact that 0:43:19.280 --> 0:43:22.480 we've had I think six justices appointed by Republicans in 0:43:22.480 --> 0:43:25.040 the last thirty years, and only one of those Republicans 0:43:25.120 --> 0:43:28.640 actually won the popular vote, um, which was the goal. 0:43:28.719 --> 0:43:31.680 This is not just One of the most important things 0:43:31.680 --> 0:43:34.759 to understand about the anti abortion movement is that it's 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:37.920 not center like it didn't start and it's not centered 0:43:37.960 --> 0:43:42.200 around abortion. It is centered around reversing all social progress 0:43:42.200 --> 0:43:44.960 of the last century. And the inciting incident was the 0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:48.879 integration of schools. Right. This all started over Brown versus 0:43:48.920 --> 0:43:51.560 the Board of Education. Abortion was just the thing they 0:43:51.600 --> 0:43:55.640 realized it was easier to rally people around than segregation. Um. 0:43:55.719 --> 0:43:57.800 And that's what we're dealing with right now. So that 0:43:57.920 --> 0:44:01.319 the fundamentally this has always been an democratic movement. This 0:44:01.360 --> 0:44:05.399 has always been about codifying into law and locking into 0:44:05.480 --> 0:44:09.840 place for essentially forever, a minority rule in which Christian 0:44:09.880 --> 0:44:12.200 extremists would get to govern the much larger chunk of 0:44:12.200 --> 0:44:15.080 the country that does not believe in those sort of things. Yeah, 0:44:15.200 --> 0:44:17.279 and I think that's also worth mentioning anytime someone talks 0:44:17.280 --> 0:44:20.120 about this, because the media does, like the media just 0:44:20.400 --> 0:44:23.040 runs pr for the anti abortion movement, which is that 0:44:23.080 --> 0:44:27.360 this is unbelievably unpopular, like staggering lee unpopular. Nobody wants this. 0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:30.160 This is like, this is this is less like you 0:44:30.200 --> 0:44:32.880 can pick it like this is less popular than invading 0:44:32.880 --> 0:44:35.799 fantasy countries that don't exist. Like if if if you 0:44:36.040 --> 0:44:39.719 like this, this is this is significantly less popular, then uh, 0:44:39.840 --> 0:44:43.080 then the burning police stations down. We have the pulling 0:44:43.120 --> 0:44:46.000 data on that. It's like less popular than the lightning 0:44:46.000 --> 0:44:50.520 police stations on fire, Like it is unbelievably staggering lye 0:44:50.560 --> 0:44:53.400 unpopular people. No one wants this except for a a 0:44:53.640 --> 0:44:57.320 very very very well organized, very politically connected, very wealthy, 0:44:57.400 --> 0:45:01.319 and very powerful clique of Christian fascists. Yeah, well, the 0:45:01.400 --> 0:45:05.680 laws never reflect what the most of the population wants though, right, 0:45:05.760 --> 0:45:08.200 like exactly like the popular vote for example, as you 0:45:08.239 --> 0:45:10.520 mentioned earlier. So it's like I think there was a 0:45:10.520 --> 0:45:13.640 poll I was reading about this yesterday in June of 0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:18.560 last year. Percent of people thought abortions should be legal 0:45:18.600 --> 0:45:20.960 for for for any reason, like there's no doesn't have 0:45:21.000 --> 0:45:22.920 to be like any kind of thing. So it's like 0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:25.120 it's and there's so many polls that also just like 0:45:25.160 --> 0:45:29.239 prove that most people don't want this hard and fast rule. 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:33.080 But yeah, the both parties i think utilize it to 0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:38.359 rally together people to vote, but obviously for different causes. Yeah, 0:45:38.400 --> 0:45:43.200 And like the first reaction from from from Democrats was, hey, 0:45:43.320 --> 0:45:49.080 donate to our campaign. It's like, oh my god, honey, 0:45:49.200 --> 0:45:52.840 read the room. You have all the power and quotes 0:45:53.000 --> 0:45:57.000 right now and you've done nothing. It's like vote blue. 0:45:57.160 --> 0:46:00.239 Dare dare saying that, and you get attacked by other 0:46:00.280 --> 0:46:04.080 Democrats by being like a radical leftist ruining movement because 0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:08.520 like it's not their faults. And I'm like, you, you've 0:46:08.520 --> 0:46:11.480 had power multiple times in my thirty years of life 0:46:11.520 --> 0:46:14.759 where you could have done it easily. Yeah, like like 0:46:14.800 --> 0:46:17.200 and this is this is one of the things that like, okay, 0:46:17.239 --> 0:46:19.040 like this stuff doesn't work on me because I remember 0:46:19.040 --> 0:46:21.759 when Obama had a two thirds majority in the sty Yeah, 0:46:21.760 --> 0:46:24.840 they had a filibusterproof majority in the Senate, had the House, 0:46:25.600 --> 0:46:29.279 and not only did he not do this, Obama by 0:46:29.320 --> 0:46:33.080 by two ten, Obama is codifying anti is codifying anti 0:46:33.080 --> 0:46:36.200 abortion stuff of codifying the High Amendment. So yeah, it's 0:46:36.200 --> 0:46:37.800 like no, like, and this is the this is the 0:46:37.800 --> 0:46:40.200 thing with the Democrats rates like, this is the best 0:46:40.200 --> 0:46:42.400 thing that's happened to the Democrats since Trump left office. 0:46:42.560 --> 0:46:44.719 Like the Democratic Party they love this. This is the best. 0:46:44.719 --> 0:46:46.160 This is the best thing they could possibly happen to them, 0:46:46.160 --> 0:46:48.319 because now what they can do is they can run on, 0:46:48.360 --> 0:46:50.359 we're going to bring abortion back every single election cycle, 0:46:50.360 --> 0:46:52.440 and they never do it right because everything because they 0:46:52.480 --> 0:46:54.319 they'll they'll never like the stuff that they run on, 0:46:54.320 --> 0:46:56.560 Like yeah, they'll, they'll they'll like they will even even 0:46:56.600 --> 0:46:59.400 if they got another somehow by like magic, if they 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:01.600 somehow got their six vote majority, they find a way 0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:02.880 to not do it because this, this is this is 0:47:02.920 --> 0:47:07.360 a permanent fundraising thing for them, and they're they're desperately 0:47:07.480 --> 0:47:09.960 in need of money all the time always. So if 0:47:10.000 --> 0:47:14.000 you take that away, like during my brief stint in 0:47:14.040 --> 0:47:17.239 the California Democratic Party, fundraising was always a big deal. 0:47:17.280 --> 0:47:19.680 And they didn't want to divest from fossil fueling cops 0:47:19.760 --> 0:47:22.640 because then where would the money come from. You can't 0:47:22.680 --> 0:47:27.480 take campaigning on row away from them because then like 0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:30.840 they don't fucking know how to activate grassroots organizers. It 0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:33.600 scares the ship out of them, so they will be 0:47:33.640 --> 0:47:36.760 fucked if they lose this, which is why nothing has happened. 0:47:37.440 --> 0:47:39.640 Speaking speaking of money, do you know who else wants 0:47:39.640 --> 0:47:42.480 your money? That's that's right. The products and services that 0:47:42.560 --> 0:47:50.720 support this podcast, that's right. Uh. You know certain may 0:47:50.960 --> 0:47:59.239 make you infertile. So that's not doing this today. We 0:47:59.320 --> 0:48:02.200 are back, um. I think it's so we'll be We'll 0:48:02.200 --> 0:48:06.120 be talking about Supreme Court abortion stuff for a lot 0:48:06.640 --> 0:48:09.840 in the coming months. Um. We'll be talking about very 0:48:09.880 --> 0:48:13.560 different facets of it. Um. Different like mutual aid, like 0:48:13.600 --> 0:48:16.239 in ways of going about kind of filling in the 0:48:16.280 --> 0:48:19.560 gaps which are going to become larger, um, and a 0:48:19.560 --> 0:48:21.719 whole bunch of other stuff relating to like right wing 0:48:21.960 --> 0:48:25.480 terrorism against abortion clinics and all that kind of stuff. Um. 0:48:25.640 --> 0:48:27.719 The other interesting aspect about this that I want to 0:48:27.800 --> 0:48:30.360 kind of briefly talk about is that with the specific 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:35.880 phrasing of the le talcument is it it threatens a 0:48:35.920 --> 0:48:41.080 whole like sect of personal rights, not just abortion rights, um, 0:48:41.120 --> 0:48:44.359 and could have far raging impacts, uh, in terms of 0:48:44.400 --> 0:48:50.160 like privacy rights, in terms of possibly even backtracking on 0:48:50.239 --> 0:48:52.560 stuff like gay marriage, and a whole bunch of other things. 0:48:52.600 --> 0:48:56.240 It's like it's obviously the abortion angle itself is pretty 0:48:56.280 --> 0:49:00.000 massive and it affects you know, half half the population 0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:03.440 should uh, But there's a whole lot of other stuff 0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:09.320 that isn't that that indicates this, like this trajectory towards 0:49:09.400 --> 0:49:13.319 this type of like right wing fundamentalist of Christian like 0:49:13.800 --> 0:49:18.480 Christian fascist effort to hack away at all the things 0:49:18.480 --> 0:49:24.359 that they deem degenerate or things that they deem is undesirable. Well, 0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:27.320 I mean, the goal is to make America Christian nations 0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:29.440 so Jesus can come back and rule it. And you 0:49:29.480 --> 0:49:32.440 can't do that if you know, people are gay, or 0:49:32.480 --> 0:49:34.640 people are allowed to be on birth control, or people 0:49:34.800 --> 0:49:37.839 are allowed to marry outside of their race, or go 0:49:37.920 --> 0:49:40.200 to school with people who don't look like that, Like 0:49:40.600 --> 0:49:43.360 I did read Jesus to say all of those things. Yeah, 0:49:43.480 --> 0:49:48.799 it's it's definitely in the Bible somewhere, if you if 0:49:48.840 --> 0:49:51.800 you do like that poetry style where you blot out 0:49:52.120 --> 0:49:58.880 some of the words to make other words, which is mary. Yes, 0:49:59.400 --> 0:50:02.800 the thing we gotta get into that, I think is 0:50:03.840 --> 0:50:06.439 the primary question people have right is like beyond sort 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:08.600 of the doom scrolling of of all of this and 0:50:08.640 --> 0:50:10.239 all of the fear about like what's going to happen 0:50:10.239 --> 0:50:12.400 to oh berge Vell and Lawrence v. Kansas and all 0:50:12.440 --> 0:50:14.000 this stuff. What are they going to go for next? 0:50:14.600 --> 0:50:19.240 Is like what actually will work to oppose this ship? Right? Um, 0:50:19.360 --> 0:50:22.360 we at the moment, I have not seen and I 0:50:22.360 --> 0:50:25.040 don't believe there's any objective signs that Democratic Party is 0:50:25.080 --> 0:50:29.160 going to be particularly useful in stymying any of this bullshit. Um, 0:50:29.520 --> 0:50:33.920 Cinema and Mansion have already come out against removing the filibuster. 0:50:34.640 --> 0:50:37.600 Mansion has come out against voting at all in order 0:50:37.600 --> 0:50:41.759 to codify abortion access into into law in any kind 0:50:41.760 --> 0:50:46.000 of federal way. Um. And yeah, I get the sense 0:50:46.000 --> 0:50:48.040 that for most of them it's a big fundraising opportunity. 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:50.439 Now we do have. That's not to say it's all 0:50:50.520 --> 0:50:55.120 bad news, because it is kind of there's a possibility 0:50:55.160 --> 0:50:58.520 that this will have a significant impact on the mid terms. Um. 0:50:59.000 --> 0:51:01.880 We got one kind signed that where the race in 0:51:01.920 --> 0:51:05.840 Michigan that just ended, the special district or the special 0:51:05.880 --> 0:51:09.479 election where um, for the first time in quite a while, 0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:12.160 a district that Trump carried by like sixteen points went 0:51:12.200 --> 0:51:15.400 to a Democrat. Uh. Now, the Republican that they were 0:51:15.480 --> 0:51:18.120 running against was the guy who said that women should 0:51:18.120 --> 0:51:20.479 lie back and enjoy it if they were getting raped. Uh, 0:51:20.560 --> 0:51:23.520 So this is one of those like, I don't know 0:51:23.600 --> 0:51:27.920 how much we should see that as particularly emblematic of 0:51:27.960 --> 0:51:30.480 how things are going to more broadly go, but this 0:51:30.560 --> 0:51:34.320 does have there's an activation potential, right because outside of 0:51:34.360 --> 0:51:37.000 the fact that the Democratic Party, you know, and as 0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:41.600 a whole is feckless and primarily method of fundraising for 0:51:41.760 --> 0:51:46.719 rich people. Um, actual Democratic voters are rightfully horrified about 0:51:46.840 --> 0:51:49.080 what's going on, and this has there's a potential here 0:51:49.080 --> 0:51:51.200 to activate a lot of people and get them organized 0:51:51.200 --> 0:51:53.960 in a productive way. So I think that has to 0:51:54.000 --> 0:51:56.400 be on our minds. And so there's a mix of 0:51:56.960 --> 0:51:59.279 I don't want to discount electoralism, but I think that 0:51:59.360 --> 0:52:01.200 in the immediate term one of the things that people 0:52:01.239 --> 0:52:05.120 are going to have to do is provide actual material 0:52:05.160 --> 0:52:07.560 ways for folks to get access to the healthcare that's 0:52:07.560 --> 0:52:10.799 going to be increasingly denied to them. Now. Um, we 0:52:10.840 --> 0:52:13.319 get a couple of episodes earlier in the year with 0:52:13.360 --> 0:52:16.440 Michael Lawfer of the voor Thieves Vinegar collective He's just 0:52:16.560 --> 0:52:20.560 gone viral, and a Vice article about the hacked abortion 0:52:20.640 --> 0:52:23.520 pills that that they've been guiding people in how to 0:52:23.600 --> 0:52:26.520 make UM. I think stuff like that is really useful. 0:52:26.840 --> 0:52:29.640 When I started posting about this online, someone pointed out 0:52:29.680 --> 0:52:35.200 that UM pro abortion activists in Germany recently flew drones 0:52:35.280 --> 0:52:38.040 across the border to Poland to drop off MIFA prostall 0:52:38.160 --> 0:52:43.280 like abortion pills which were picked up by people in Poland. UM, 0:52:43.400 --> 0:52:45.839 and there's there's some there's going to be increasing kind 0:52:45.840 --> 0:52:49.680 of organizing around that stuff, like the Jain Collective. UM 0:52:49.840 --> 0:52:53.440 people are already organizing and from like national organizations to 0:52:54.320 --> 0:52:57.240 increase access and states where it's going to remain legal 0:52:57.280 --> 0:52:59.040 for people out of state. So I think that's going 0:52:59.080 --> 0:53:02.080 to be hugely importan UM. Does anyone else have sort 0:53:02.080 --> 0:53:05.319 of ideas on kind of what what things people can 0:53:05.360 --> 0:53:07.799 do when are going to be doing to push back 0:53:07.800 --> 0:53:10.880 against this, because I do think it's got to be twofold. 0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:13.319 It's got to be both, you know, pushing back in 0:53:13.360 --> 0:53:15.640 sort of a legal sense and also pushing back by 0:53:15.719 --> 0:53:18.200 direct action in order to ensure that people still have 0:53:18.320 --> 0:53:23.120 access to this stuff. I don't know, I don't have 0:53:23.400 --> 0:53:27.759 faith in electoral electoral anything. Uh So I really think 0:53:27.840 --> 0:53:30.080 like if there's if it's possible to find your own 0:53:30.120 --> 0:53:34.359 community and like just almost like with I don't know, 0:53:35.719 --> 0:53:39.720 just mobilizing your actual peers versus like trying to trust 0:53:40.320 --> 0:53:44.399 anyone with power to get anything done. Because maybe I'm 0:53:44.400 --> 0:53:47.000 a pestimist. Maybe I'm just a pessimist. But what you 0:53:47.040 --> 0:53:49.560 said earlier about the person she was running against, what 0:53:49.719 --> 0:53:52.520 I heard is that that person was still running and 0:53:52.560 --> 0:53:54.759 people like he was still the number two, you know, 0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:58.239 And I think on the other side there, their side 0:53:58.320 --> 0:54:00.520 is also going to rally against stuff like didn't Oklahoma 0:54:00.800 --> 0:54:05.160 just passed like the most restricted and ever and just 0:54:05.480 --> 0:54:09.200 yesterday at time of recording. Yeah, so in this law, 0:54:09.440 --> 0:54:11.880 women can be punished up to ten years in prison 0:54:11.960 --> 0:54:15.480 for gonna get abortion and like in pair, like just 0:54:15.680 --> 0:54:19.200 for some perspective, rapists in Oklahoma get five years. So 0:54:19.239 --> 0:54:22.160 it's like stuff like that is happening in all these states, 0:54:22.480 --> 0:54:27.600 and because these states people with with less resources maybe 0:54:27.640 --> 0:54:30.480 don't have their ability to travel so far, I think 0:54:30.520 --> 0:54:34.920 really mobilizing communities a little bit more uh maybe just 0:54:35.000 --> 0:54:37.759 more effective in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, we have 0:54:37.840 --> 0:54:41.040 to mobilize communities, but you also can't. It can't just 0:54:41.440 --> 0:54:44.640 end at we're going to try to like provide these 0:54:44.680 --> 0:54:47.640 people with an option to get out of the state 0:54:47.920 --> 0:54:51.160 or get access where they are, like clandestinely. If it's 0:54:51.200 --> 0:54:53.560 limited to that, they're going to push to make all 0:54:53.560 --> 0:54:55.560 this more illegal federally, and they're just going to keep 0:54:55.600 --> 0:54:58.799 throwing people in prison and using the police as the 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:01.000 enforcement arm of this stuff. There does have to be 0:55:01.680 --> 0:55:03.759 there has to be a broader counter you know, I'm 0:55:03.800 --> 0:55:06.600 thinking back to like, and I'm not talking about like 0:55:07.080 --> 0:55:09.239 picking a dude to vote for. I'm talking about like 0:55:09.280 --> 0:55:13.240 in Mexico, right when they were talking about UM making 0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:17.680 abortion illegal, activists attempted to light the Capitol building on 0:55:17.719 --> 0:55:22.560 fire UM and like that that that kind of like 0:55:22.600 --> 0:55:25.080 there has to be there has to be a broader 0:55:26.160 --> 0:55:28.839 two thirds of the country thinks this is bullshit. There 0:55:28.880 --> 0:55:31.120 has to be a way of getting those people organized 0:55:31.120 --> 0:55:35.840 in a way beyond dealing with the acute problems caused 0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:38.920 by this. Like yeah, and I don't entirely know what 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:40.920 that looks like, but no, that makes sense that you're 0:55:40.960 --> 0:55:43.040 right and makes sense. Well, and I think I think 0:55:43.040 --> 0:55:45.440 that there have been signs that it's started, Like so, 0:55:45.480 --> 0:55:47.680 I mean, there there's obviously, like there were protests like 0:55:48.560 --> 0:55:51.239 they've been protests, like literally since the thing came out. 0:55:51.480 --> 0:55:54.600 They were especially Yeah. Also, I mean I think I 0:55:54.600 --> 0:55:57.360 think part of like this sort of like yeah, what 0:55:57.440 --> 0:55:58.719 did you see when you can see this sort of 0:55:58.760 --> 0:56:02.839 like I don't know, you can see the way that 0:56:02.920 --> 0:56:06.920 people haven't I guess fully internalized the fact that the 0:56:06.960 --> 0:56:08.480 stage is just trying to do this to them, and 0:56:08.520 --> 0:56:10.480 that like you know, if you look at the barricades 0:56:10.680 --> 0:56:13.480 that were put up, right, like you could just push 0:56:13.480 --> 0:56:15.920 those over, like and then there you have you had 0:56:15.920 --> 0:56:17.360 a bunch of people who are extremely angry and they 0:56:17.400 --> 0:56:19.520 sort of just sat there and did nothing right and 0:56:19.560 --> 0:56:21.000 like this is this is the kind of thing that like, 0:56:21.560 --> 0:56:23.040 you know, if you look at what happened in l A. 0:56:23.040 --> 0:56:24.360 There there is a lot of protest in l A. 0:56:24.560 --> 0:56:28.239 And like the department, like Homeland Security was on the 0:56:28.280 --> 0:56:31.280 street beating people, and I think if if if there's 0:56:31.280 --> 0:56:34.520 like okay, So, one thing it's important to keep in 0:56:34.560 --> 0:56:37.640 mind is that this still again this this the ruling, 0:56:37.680 --> 0:56:40.280 the draft of the ruling is not the actual ruling. 0:56:40.480 --> 0:56:45.680 Right there is still time right now in between when 0:56:45.719 --> 0:56:48.440 this in between this leak and when this is actually decided, 0:56:49.280 --> 0:56:51.600 there is still time to literally force the court to 0:56:51.680 --> 0:56:56.759 not do this, so start greasing those stairwells people. Yes, well, 0:56:56.800 --> 0:56:59.440 I think here's a few notes. Um. So one, I 0:56:59.520 --> 0:57:03.760 think it's it's going to be used to encourage action 0:57:04.000 --> 0:57:07.000 on all sides. Uh, there's what it's gonna This is 0:57:07.160 --> 0:57:08.680 going to be seen as a victory for the right, 0:57:08.760 --> 0:57:11.799 and they're going to use this momentum to mobilize further, uh, 0:57:11.880 --> 0:57:14.480 to to put more further antibortion stuff into law, and 0:57:14.520 --> 0:57:19.280 to encourage people to take vigilante justice out on healthcare providers. Um. 0:57:19.320 --> 0:57:24.120 The second thing is direct action for of trying to 0:57:24.200 --> 0:57:28.160 alter the ruling before it happens. Like there is a 0:57:28.240 --> 0:57:31.240 chance to do mass mobilization. Uh, there's a chance if 0:57:31.280 --> 0:57:34.120 we frames if things are framed correctly, you can bring 0:57:34.160 --> 0:57:37.320 a lot of liberals out and convince them and suggest 0:57:37.360 --> 0:57:39.439 to them that they can that they could do things 0:57:39.440 --> 0:57:43.000 that they ordinarily maybe wouldn't do. Uh. There's that is 0:57:43.400 --> 0:57:48.880 that is an entirely uh, entirely possible scenario. Just in 0:57:48.920 --> 0:57:51.080 my in my episodes about the Atlanta Forest from a 0:57:51.160 --> 0:57:55.240 few days ago, I discussed the shack method of protest. Now, 0:57:55.280 --> 0:57:58.040 this this isn't this isn't this doesn't carry over one 0:57:58.080 --> 0:58:02.880 to one because that is pretty focused on doing economic targeting. 0:58:03.160 --> 0:58:07.800 But the whole idea of targeting people outside of like 0:58:07.920 --> 0:58:10.920 the political space is a key to that. Like people 0:58:11.520 --> 0:58:13.760 people don't just do work in the Supreme Court. They 0:58:13.800 --> 0:58:17.720 have actual everyday lives, and if you can uh surround 0:58:17.720 --> 0:58:20.680 them in their everyday lives, that type of personal pressure 0:58:20.800 --> 0:58:25.320 is way more affecting than just yelling at a government 0:58:25.320 --> 0:58:29.520 buildings sometimes, um because if we can dissolve this like 0:58:29.640 --> 0:58:32.800 safe political like space that people think that they think 0:58:32.840 --> 0:58:35.120 they operated in, right, they assume that, oh, I'm I'm 0:58:35.200 --> 0:58:37.560 I'm a court justice, I'm a judge. Everything that I 0:58:37.600 --> 0:58:41.080 do happens in the courtroom. Right, I'm safe, I'm contained. 0:58:41.120 --> 0:58:43.440 Everything is just in the contents of the courtroom. I 0:58:43.480 --> 0:58:46.840 don't get to experience consequences for my actions outside the courtroom, 0:58:47.280 --> 0:58:49.960 which isn't true because obviously the people, all of us, 0:58:50.240 --> 0:58:53.400 do experience those consequences in the real world all the time, 0:58:53.840 --> 0:58:56.040 just the people in power don't have to. So instead, 0:58:56.080 --> 0:58:59.040 if we can put pressure on people when they're going 0:58:59.080 --> 0:59:02.360 about their every day lives in their hanging banners in 0:59:02.400 --> 0:59:07.560 their backyard, doing other things. Horse but again, very useful. Um, 0:59:07.720 --> 0:59:10.160 that is a that is a way to do types 0:59:10.200 --> 0:59:14.080 of protests that we have not seen as much, but 0:59:14.200 --> 0:59:17.000 I think is now is probably the time to start 0:59:17.040 --> 0:59:20.080 doing that, right. I mean we we saw we saw 0:59:20.120 --> 0:59:22.920 stuff after the murder of George Floyd with people surrounding 0:59:23.200 --> 0:59:26.640 the house of Derek Chauvin, which police were very angry 0:59:26.640 --> 0:59:31.240 about that. There is an indication that hey, this the 0:59:31.320 --> 0:59:34.040 state doesn't like it when this happens. Um, it's not. 0:59:34.160 --> 0:59:36.840 It's not specifically more legal to stand in the street 0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:40.960 of a residential neighborhood. So no, and it's you know, 0:59:41.480 --> 0:59:44.920 a lot of protests so far has focused on court buildings, 0:59:45.440 --> 0:59:48.000 many of which are federal, and those provide a lot 0:59:48.000 --> 0:59:50.600 of benefits to shall we say, the defender, including the 0:59:50.680 --> 0:59:53.040 fact that they're already well set up for surveillance. They're 0:59:53.080 --> 0:59:57.040 generally fortified. Uh, they have a pretty short logistic tail 0:59:57.160 --> 0:59:59.360 to where the state is keeping its weaponry and its 0:59:59.360 --> 1:00:03.040 troops as opposed to just kind of fucking with people 1:00:03.080 --> 1:00:05.600 in their lives, which is a lot harder for those 1:00:05.680 --> 1:00:08.440 kind of militarized responses that lead to large groups of 1:00:08.440 --> 1:00:11.720 your friends getting arrested or beat up by Feds. I 1:00:11.760 --> 1:00:14.640 think also like, yeah, the tendency to go after like 1:00:15.040 --> 1:00:18.240 legal buildings is missing the point of where the actual 1:00:18.280 --> 1:00:20.320 power is. Like this is the thing which January sixth 1:00:20.360 --> 1:00:22.840 too is like yeah, even if like yeah, they took 1:00:22.840 --> 1:00:25.200 over the capital and nothing happens. And the reason that 1:00:25.240 --> 1:00:28.280 like nothing could happen is because it's just a building, right, 1:00:28.320 --> 1:00:31.320 like the the the the actual political system existed dependently 1:00:31.360 --> 1:00:33.320 of it, and you have to hit the things that 1:00:33.320 --> 1:00:35.800 the system actually cares about, and so like that supports 1:00:36.240 --> 1:00:42.880 that's roads, that's border crossings, that's things like I why 1:00:42.920 --> 1:00:46.360 am I now suddenly vacation homes? Yeah, but like like 1:00:46.520 --> 1:00:48.320 but also I mean like okay, like you know, if 1:00:48.440 --> 1:00:51.040 if if if there was actually like a way to 1:00:51.080 --> 1:00:52.720 stop this, one of the few things that could actually 1:00:52.760 --> 1:00:53.920 do it would be a large would be something like 1:00:53.960 --> 1:00:56.640 a large skale teacher strike or a thing I've talked 1:00:56.680 --> 1:01:00.000 about before that is happening this summer is for example, 1:01:00.000 --> 1:01:03.960 all the the long Showman contract in uh Oakland is 1:01:04.000 --> 1:01:06.800 coming up, right, and like those are the kinds of 1:01:06.800 --> 1:01:09.360 things like if you can actually start shutting down large 1:01:09.360 --> 1:01:11.840 sections of the U. S economy, the Supreme Court of 1:01:11.880 --> 1:01:16.040 Political Actors, they will have to respond to this, and 1:01:16.200 --> 1:01:19.960 you can essentially, like like you can you can blackmail 1:01:20.040 --> 1:01:22.800 them into into into doing the thing that they should 1:01:22.840 --> 1:01:27.360 be doing. You can apply targeted pressure economically and personally. 1:01:28.440 --> 1:01:31.840 And that's the type of protest that I think it 1:01:31.840 --> 1:01:35.120 would be interesting to see where that leads us. They 1:01:35.200 --> 1:01:39.600 need to not they like the consequence for both the 1:01:39.640 --> 1:01:42.720 political actors who are carrying this out and the people 1:01:42.760 --> 1:01:45.160 who support them needs to be that they don't get 1:01:45.200 --> 1:01:48.640 to live a normal life um that they are, that 1:01:48.760 --> 1:01:53.440 they suffer consequences for hurting people. And that means a 1:01:53.520 --> 1:01:55.360 lot of things, but among other things, that means that 1:01:55.360 --> 1:01:57.680 certain people shouldn't be going to the fucking grocery store 1:01:57.720 --> 1:02:00.360 without feeling the hatred, you know, And I think, I 1:02:00.360 --> 1:02:02.760 think be able to order delivery and feel secure that 1:02:02.880 --> 1:02:05.439 what they're gonna eat isn't going to hurt them. Yeah, 1:02:05.640 --> 1:02:07.920 And I think also like one of the things that 1:02:07.960 --> 1:02:11.920 I remembering from that was actually really effective initially from 1:02:11.920 --> 1:02:14.920 the beginning of TRUP administration was the airport protests. And 1:02:15.240 --> 1:02:18.120 that's a place that like you wouldn't think you'd be 1:02:18.160 --> 1:02:20.640 able to really occupy because again, the amount of security 1:02:20.640 --> 1:02:23.640 there was enormous, but like if you have a lot 1:02:23.720 --> 1:02:27.680 of libs, you can. I remember, like I was, I 1:02:27.720 --> 1:02:30.320 was like standing in an airport terminal and there was 1:02:30.360 --> 1:02:32.400 a lot of riot cops attacking. Like everyone is like, oh, 1:02:32.400 --> 1:02:34.960 we're gonna get attacked, but like there was just enough 1:02:35.000 --> 1:02:37.200 like everyone just sat down and there was enough libs 1:02:37.240 --> 1:02:39.960 with like their kids that the cops didn't attack. And 1:02:40.200 --> 1:02:43.920 that's that. That's a kind of thing that like potentially 1:02:43.920 --> 1:02:46.440 could be replicated and also could be useful given the 1:02:46.480 --> 1:02:50.200 fact that like sometimes cops have like an aversion to 1:02:50.320 --> 1:02:54.400 a like stuff that looks really really bad on TV. 1:02:54.640 --> 1:02:57.520 Not not always, but like, yeah, this is this is 1:02:57.560 --> 1:02:59.640 the thing that can happen. Is the thing that has 1:02:59.680 --> 1:03:03.880 happened inner like pretty recently. Yeah we can do again. 1:03:04.760 --> 1:03:07.760 I don't really trust footage of police brutality to change 1:03:07.800 --> 1:03:10.439 things anymore. UM. I feel like we reached the peak 1:03:10.440 --> 1:03:13.560 of that, and at this point I think moving on 1:03:13.640 --> 1:03:17.200 to targeted pressure towards individuals that whole positions of power 1:03:17.400 --> 1:03:21.760 and targeted pressure to the economy. Um. But speaking of 1:03:22.760 --> 1:03:25.600 speaking of targeted pressure the economy, a large protest at 1:03:25.640 --> 1:03:28.000 an airport that the police break up with tear gas 1:03:28.040 --> 1:03:30.400 does damage to the economy that the police are the 1:03:30.440 --> 1:03:35.400 ones causing um and like it's it's uh, it's one 1:03:35.440 --> 1:03:39.720 of those things. As we've stated, courthouse or whatever is 1:03:39.800 --> 1:03:43.240 just a building. People can not go into work and 1:03:43.400 --> 1:03:45.439 do all of the fund up ship that they're doing 1:03:45.480 --> 1:03:48.880 on zoom um. An airport is not just a building, 1:03:49.080 --> 1:03:52.280 you know, And so a protest at an airport has 1:03:52.320 --> 1:03:56.040 some teeth that a protest at a courthouse doesn't. Necessarily, 1:03:57.080 --> 1:04:00.280 I do have one, like quick other thing it that 1:04:00.320 --> 1:04:02.600 I want to throw out as sort of a means 1:04:02.640 --> 1:04:09.160 of uh resistance or action. Is something that I was 1:04:09.200 --> 1:04:13.080 trained to do growing up. Part of the forest birth 1:04:13.120 --> 1:04:17.000 movement is co opting the language that the left uses, 1:04:17.560 --> 1:04:19.880 and I think something that we should do and something 1:04:19.880 --> 1:04:22.160 that we can all be doing right now is co 1:04:22.320 --> 1:04:26.800 opting the language back. So when force birth advocates say 1:04:26.840 --> 1:04:29.280 their pro life, come back with how can you be 1:04:29.360 --> 1:04:33.480 pro life if you want someone to die by having 1:04:33.520 --> 1:04:39.000 a pregnancy, and like just sort of taking words and 1:04:39.040 --> 1:04:45.480 rhetoric that has traditionally been used to oppress us two 1:04:46.720 --> 1:04:50.000 reframe it and be like, no, actually, you're the one 1:04:50.040 --> 1:04:53.160 who's telling on yourself here, and you're the one who 1:04:53.720 --> 1:04:56.960 is forcing people literally to die in multiple ways. You 1:04:57.040 --> 1:05:01.920 cannot be pro life if support people who already exist 1:05:02.040 --> 1:05:05.080 dying and just sort of thinking about that a little bit. 1:05:05.120 --> 1:05:08.080 If you don't necessarily have the energy to go stage 1:05:08.080 --> 1:05:12.400 protest at the airport, yep, that is a great line 1:05:12.400 --> 1:05:17.560 to end on end on um. Everybody go out, and again, 1:05:17.680 --> 1:05:21.439 you know, our sponsors are the Klein and Stupil Hip 1:05:21.480 --> 1:05:25.000 Surgery Center in Washington, d C. So please do keep 1:05:25.520 --> 1:05:46.120 greasing those stairways. Everybody welcome to It could happen here, 1:05:46.560 --> 1:05:49.760 the podcast that's happening here right now, in your ears, 1:05:50.000 --> 1:05:54.600 it could happen here. I'm Robert evans Um. I'm I'm 1:05:54.640 --> 1:05:58.720 not with any of my normal UH co hosts today 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:02.680 because as fuck them now, because I'm elsewhere in the 1:06:02.720 --> 1:06:05.000 world right now, hanging out with someone you might remember 1:06:05.000 --> 1:06:08.000 from a special episode we recently did on Molotov Cocktails, 1:06:08.280 --> 1:06:12.280 journalist James Stout. Hi. Everyone, Yeah, I'm here with Robert 1:06:12.600 --> 1:06:15.120 in a tiny hotel room and we've just worken up 1:06:15.120 --> 1:06:18.439 we had to do some podcasting. Yeah, we're not We're 1:06:18.440 --> 1:06:20.800 not here for any specific purpose. We just decided let's 1:06:20.840 --> 1:06:25.200 run a hotel room cast some pods, you know, hang out. Um, James, 1:06:25.920 --> 1:06:30.480 how do you feel about the border? Negatively? Broadly speaking, 1:06:30.520 --> 1:06:32.880 I think the border is a tool that we used 1:06:32.920 --> 1:06:35.880 to harm and kill the most marginalized people in the world. 1:06:36.880 --> 1:06:38.440 I think that's kind of borne out by stats as well. 1:06:38.520 --> 1:06:40.840 So not a big not a big border guy. Yeah. 1:06:40.920 --> 1:06:43.720 And you and I recently spent a decent amount of 1:06:43.760 --> 1:06:47.680 time on the Texas Mexico chunk of the border, specifically 1:06:47.680 --> 1:06:51.480 near McAllen, Texas, hanging out at a butterfly sanctuary that 1:06:51.520 --> 1:06:53.480 people can learn some things about if they Google will 1:06:53.480 --> 1:06:55.400 be coming out that those episodes will be dropping in 1:06:55.400 --> 1:06:58.280 the not too distant future. Um. But you live on 1:06:58.320 --> 1:07:01.760 the San Diego side of the order, UM, which, if 1:07:01.800 --> 1:07:06.400 people don't know, San Diego, California is basically in Mexico. Um, 1:07:06.440 --> 1:07:08.760 you can you can hop over across for like lunch 1:07:08.800 --> 1:07:10.560 and stuff if you really want to and don't mind 1:07:10.600 --> 1:07:14.080 dealing with CBP. UM. And Yeah, so I you've done 1:07:14.080 --> 1:07:16.880 a lot of reporting around the border and about kind 1:07:16.920 --> 1:07:20.080 of the system of violence that it represents. UM. I 1:07:20.080 --> 1:07:22.160 wanted to chat a little bit like about that, and 1:07:22.200 --> 1:07:24.800 I wanted to chat about some of the organizations that 1:07:24.920 --> 1:07:27.240 you've run into that are doing good work out there 1:07:27.240 --> 1:07:30.120 because there's a lot that needs to be done. Yeah, definitely, 1:07:30.160 --> 1:07:32.640 I think, Um, I think it's really important to like 1:07:32.680 --> 1:07:35.560 conceptualize what's happening at the border in terms of like 1:07:36.280 --> 1:07:38.600 the border is a tool for state violence, right, state 1:07:38.680 --> 1:07:42.160 violence against marginalized people, and like what the good group 1:07:42.200 --> 1:07:44.720 groups helping people on the boarder represent is like ways 1:07:44.760 --> 1:07:47.480 of us helping each other which are outside the networks 1:07:47.480 --> 1:07:50.200 of us having power over each other. Right, So in 1:07:50.200 --> 1:07:53.400 the broader spectrum of like neutral aid of mutual support, like, 1:07:53.440 --> 1:07:55.960 I think they're really important to focus on rather than 1:07:56.040 --> 1:07:59.000 kind of so many people construct the border in their minds, 1:07:59.040 --> 1:08:01.120 Like you can if you go back on my Twitter, 1:08:01.320 --> 1:08:03.160 some guy just being like that is not the border. 1:08:03.240 --> 1:08:05.040 The border does not look like that. The border is 1:08:05.120 --> 1:08:07.240 barren and it's desert and it's full of people with 1:08:07.280 --> 1:08:10.480 guns and it's really not right. Like, so the border exists, 1:08:10.520 --> 1:08:12.680 is like this mental construct a place where we can 1:08:12.720 --> 1:08:15.880 do like political theater, especially on the right. So people 1:08:15.880 --> 1:08:17.920 who are actually down there on the ground and understand it, 1:08:17.960 --> 1:08:21.200 I think it's it's vital to support them. Yeah. One 1:08:21.200 --> 1:08:23.240 of the more striking moments to me when we were 1:08:23.240 --> 1:08:26.599 in McAllen was hanging out near this trunk of border 1:08:26.640 --> 1:08:31.479 fence that had been constructed on like by volunteers effectively. Um, 1:08:31.560 --> 1:08:33.719 and it's this, it's it's it's what you would expect, 1:08:33.840 --> 1:08:37.240 like the stereotype of the border. It's this huge military 1:08:37.320 --> 1:08:41.719 industrial looking thing. The wildlife has been cleared from around 1:08:41.720 --> 1:08:44.040 it so that you can have this towering steel edifice. 1:08:44.439 --> 1:08:49.040 But then a hundred yards away across the rio is 1:08:49.040 --> 1:08:51.320 the Mexican side of the border, and there's like a 1:08:51.320 --> 1:08:54.400 couple of goat farms and like a little restaurant with 1:08:54.600 --> 1:08:56.720 a little dock so people can like you know, take 1:08:56.800 --> 1:08:59.200 their little boats out and people are drinking and there's 1:08:59.240 --> 1:09:02.600 party music laying and like it's it's nice. It's pastoral 1:09:02.680 --> 1:09:04.679 and green. It was. It looked like a lovely place. 1:09:04.720 --> 1:09:06.639 It looked much nicer than hanging out by the giant 1:09:06.680 --> 1:09:09.759 steel tower. Yeah. I found that all along the border actually, 1:09:09.800 --> 1:09:12.080 like we are side of the border looks like something 1:09:12.160 --> 1:09:15.000 from a Blade Runner or something like. It's this giant 1:09:15.080 --> 1:09:19.639 dystopian steel construct with with people with guns, with watch towers, 1:09:19.720 --> 1:09:22.600 and it's horrific, right, Like it cuts through some of 1:09:22.640 --> 1:09:26.160 the most beautiful and important landscapes we have right through 1:09:26.160 --> 1:09:30.640 the high desert, through this very fragile places, and like 1:09:30.880 --> 1:09:32.680 it's important I think people understand as well what the 1:09:32.720 --> 1:09:35.040 border wall looks like, right because you've probably seen a 1:09:35.040 --> 1:09:38.720 photograph of giant ass wallum and that is part of it. 1:09:38.760 --> 1:09:40.920 But they got it the border wall ecosystem, and what 1:09:41.040 --> 1:09:45.479 that involves is the wall itself, sometimes a ditch, sometimes 1:09:45.520 --> 1:09:48.960 not a ditch, and then a road that's wide enough 1:09:49.000 --> 1:09:52.200 for two of the f one fifty raptors Border Patrol 1:09:52.280 --> 1:09:56.240 like to drive to pass each other, and then access 1:09:56.360 --> 1:09:58.559 road to that, and then generally there's also an access 1:09:58.640 --> 1:10:01.360 road cut that allows construct vehicles to get to build 1:10:01.360 --> 1:10:04.080 all of that. So it's not just some spikes in 1:10:04.120 --> 1:10:08.599 the desert. It's fucking destroying this beautiful part of both 1:10:08.600 --> 1:10:11.680 of Mexico and the United States. Right now, before we 1:10:11.720 --> 1:10:15.439 get into some of these organizations, I'm wondering, first off, 1:10:15.439 --> 1:10:18.439 when did you start reporting on the US Mexico border 1:10:18.920 --> 1:10:22.040 and is there any kind of specific events that that 1:10:22.080 --> 1:10:25.160 you can recall that really kind of ignited your your 1:10:25.200 --> 1:10:29.840 interest in this particular like part of the United States, 1:10:29.880 --> 1:10:35.240 in this particular part of like our ongoing social conflict. Yeah, like, 1:10:35.320 --> 1:10:39.400 I've always been interested in borderlands, like academically and as 1:10:39.439 --> 1:10:42.559 part of my PhD UM. But I guess I've probably 1:10:42.560 --> 1:10:45.639 about eight or nine years i've been reporting on the border. 1:10:46.200 --> 1:10:49.880 The thing that really sort of took it from being 1:10:49.880 --> 1:10:51.960 like a the border is sometimes I think I write 1:10:51.960 --> 1:10:53.519 about I did a lot of outdoor writing about the 1:10:53.560 --> 1:10:55.200 border to right. It was very interesting in getting more 1:10:55.200 --> 1:10:58.240 people to go outside in Baha, California. It's amazing and 1:10:59.000 --> 1:11:02.280 you should do it. But what really sort of I 1:11:02.320 --> 1:11:04.599 guess made me be like Gulf funk, this is fucking horrible. 1:11:04.800 --> 1:11:10.120 U is quote unquote migrant caravan. Right. So I've been 1:11:10.920 --> 1:11:15.439 down just just enjoying a weekend in Fettle further south 1:11:15.479 --> 1:11:18.360 and but little further south of Tijuana and having a 1:11:18.400 --> 1:11:20.240 really good wine country there. So we've been checking out 1:11:20.240 --> 1:11:25.720 these wine places and just enjoying ourselves. And we come 1:11:25.720 --> 1:11:29.280 back and then these people are in um what's called 1:11:29.320 --> 1:11:33.040 the Benito Kuaida's Sports Complex. It's just a baseball field 1:11:33.040 --> 1:11:36.280 and it's raining and it's November, and it looks like 1:11:36.320 --> 1:11:38.640 a fucking Battle of the Somme in there. You know, 1:11:38.680 --> 1:11:41.559 it's mud. They're little children, And I've been in these 1:11:41.560 --> 1:11:45.040 situations before. I've I've seen situations with displaced people before, 1:11:45.640 --> 1:11:49.519 but there was something that just broke my heart about like, 1:11:50.479 --> 1:11:52.280 so obviously we're gonna go in, right, We're gonna see 1:11:52.280 --> 1:11:53.760 what's going on. We're going to see what we can 1:11:53.760 --> 1:11:58.160 do to help. And they're little kids. I remember there 1:11:58.240 --> 1:12:00.320 was this little girl and it's one still makes me 1:12:00.360 --> 1:12:02.719 really sad. But she would find me. There were thousands 1:12:02.760 --> 1:12:05.479 of people there. Every single time I came, she would 1:12:05.479 --> 1:12:10.439 find me. It found me the first day and she 1:12:10.479 --> 1:12:12.519 would like we talked for a little bit about what 1:12:12.600 --> 1:12:15.920 she was doing, and then she was standing like halfway 1:12:16.000 --> 1:12:19.400 up her little shins in mud and she didn't have 1:12:19.439 --> 1:12:21.000 any works like shower or be clean. You know. She 1:12:21.080 --> 1:12:22.840 was living in a sort of tarp shelter. And it 1:12:22.920 --> 1:12:25.720 just fucking broke my heart. So he said she used 1:12:25.800 --> 1:12:28.160 to plack my hair a lot so and carry her around, 1:12:28.960 --> 1:12:32.680 And that was just like this realization for me, like 1:12:32.720 --> 1:12:36.400 of how cruel this thing is. Shortly thereafter, of course, 1:12:36.439 --> 1:12:38.559 the police stood in the parking lot of the Tommy 1:12:38.600 --> 1:12:41.760 Hill Figure discount store in order to fire tear gas. 1:12:41.840 --> 1:12:45.400 It's some of the most marginalized and desperate people certainly 1:12:45.400 --> 1:12:47.559 in that part of the world, right, and just that 1:12:47.680 --> 1:12:50.000 it's it's a scene that like, yeah, that would if 1:12:50.000 --> 1:12:51.880 you put that in a movie, you would be like 1:12:51.960 --> 1:12:54.240 it was a little bit heavy handed, right, having them 1:12:54.240 --> 1:12:57.400 shoot from the tummy hill finger at the desperate migrants. 1:12:57.439 --> 1:13:00.160 That's a little bit heavy Yeah, yeah, it's it's just 1:13:00.240 --> 1:13:02.919 dis advanced fucking parody of where we are at a society. 1:13:02.960 --> 1:13:05.800 But yeah, the the DHS helicopter is taking off from 1:13:05.800 --> 1:13:08.559 the Tommy Hill Figure store to fire tear grass grenades 1:13:08.640 --> 1:13:11.160 at the children who just want a safe place to sleep. 1:13:11.640 --> 1:13:14.040 I had a moment like that in a protest where 1:13:14.479 --> 1:13:19.160 the Portland Police. We were in um uh North Portland, um, 1:13:19.200 --> 1:13:21.040 which is like in a neighborhood that was like one 1:13:21.080 --> 1:13:24.479 of the fairly few like black neighborhoods in Portland, and 1:13:24.640 --> 1:13:27.160 the cops, you know, when apeship and started firing impact 1:13:27.280 --> 1:13:31.360 munitions down Martin Luther King Boulevard. And I didn't catch 1:13:31.400 --> 1:13:32.760 myself at first, and I was like, the cops are 1:13:32.800 --> 1:13:39.000 now shooting down Martin Luther. Yeah, you've been in and 1:13:39.040 --> 1:13:42.599 around like you you live there obviously, so who are like, 1:13:42.760 --> 1:13:44.439 who are some of the folks that you've come across 1:13:44.479 --> 1:13:46.680 that are doing the most to actually help there, and 1:13:46.680 --> 1:13:49.160 what kind of help, like it is necessary because I 1:13:49.200 --> 1:13:51.000 feel like one of the one of the things I 1:13:51.000 --> 1:13:54.120 think is the primary shortcoming of it could happen. Here 1:13:54.200 --> 1:13:57.080 is a show so far? Is that the way Garrison 1:13:57.080 --> 1:13:58.599 and I phrase it is like a lot of our 1:13:58.640 --> 1:14:01.439 episodes are here's a problem them goodbye. Right, We're like, 1:14:01.479 --> 1:14:06.160 here's the thing that's bad. Off we go. So what 1:14:06.479 --> 1:14:08.320 I guess the two chief questions I think they need 1:14:08.360 --> 1:14:10.960 to be answered because I'm hoping pretty much everyone here 1:14:11.040 --> 1:14:13.800 is on board with the border is a nightmare. Uh, 1:14:13.840 --> 1:14:15.640 something's got to be done. What are the kind of 1:14:15.680 --> 1:14:19.720 things that can actually materially improve people's lives who are 1:14:19.800 --> 1:14:23.360 being affected by this border ecosystem? And then who are 1:14:23.400 --> 1:14:26.400 the motherfucker's who are actually out there trying to unfunck 1:14:26.520 --> 1:14:29.760 things that to the extent that unfucking is doable here. Yeah, 1:14:30.320 --> 1:14:34.920 So I think like just to further like make people sad. First, like, 1:14:34.960 --> 1:14:37.880 if you look up de Colonial Atlas Southern Border, you 1:14:37.920 --> 1:14:40.200 can find this map of where migrants die when they're 1:14:40.200 --> 1:14:42.720 coming to the United States, right, and were often it's 1:14:42.760 --> 1:14:45.320 constructed in the news media, is like it's dangerous crossing Mexico. 1:14:45.439 --> 1:14:48.080 It is. It's it's dangerous coming across the Darien Gap, 1:14:48.360 --> 1:14:50.960 sure it is. But the vast bulk of people die 1:14:51.040 --> 1:14:53.200 within a few miles of our southern border, right. And 1:14:53.760 --> 1:14:56.439 that's because, especially now with the way we've constructed the 1:14:56.439 --> 1:15:01.120 border wall. Right before the action, Donald Trump in a 1:15:01.240 --> 1:15:03.639 debate made claims about how much border wall he'd built. 1:15:03.800 --> 1:15:06.280 Like everything else, he was full of shit. So they 1:15:06.320 --> 1:15:08.240 just tried to build as much as they could between 1:15:08.240 --> 1:15:10.360 them and the election. So they just skip the hard parts, 1:15:10.640 --> 1:15:12.960 skip them out in to skip the valleys, and that 1:15:13.160 --> 1:15:16.160 often forces people to cross in the most arduous terrain, right, 1:15:16.200 --> 1:15:19.880 So that that's increased the amount of people dying. So 1:15:20.800 --> 1:15:23.479 we can look broadly at like two categories of support, right, 1:15:23.479 --> 1:15:26.439 which are like, um, I guess like direct aid and 1:15:26.439 --> 1:15:30.040 then legal aid. So um, on the legal aid side, 1:15:30.160 --> 1:15:33.519 the guys who guys and girls and other people who 1:15:33.640 --> 1:15:37.400 who have been really really helpful to the other side 1:15:37.479 --> 1:15:41.240 right there there, Legal aid group. They were very very 1:15:41.240 --> 1:15:44.960 cool during the during the microt care event, like they 1:15:45.200 --> 1:15:47.000 and I realized that something about a loaded phrase, right, 1:15:47.040 --> 1:15:48.160 I'm just trying to use a word that people will 1:15:48.240 --> 1:15:52.639 understand they were there constantly helping people with good course letters. 1:15:52.640 --> 1:15:55.040 They were there filing legal briefs on their behalf. As 1:15:55.040 --> 1:15:57.639 a result of that, many of them were illegally surveiled 1:15:57.680 --> 1:16:01.759 by the Department of Homeland Security. We had the phones taken, 1:16:02.400 --> 1:16:05.959 the communications trace, their movements traced, their network trace, etcetera. 1:16:06.680 --> 1:16:10.400 They are wonderful people, right like, they do amazing things 1:16:10.560 --> 1:16:14.639 with helping people get legal aid um. And then you've 1:16:14.640 --> 1:16:18.400 got the people who are helping people while they cross right, 1:16:18.400 --> 1:16:20.080 and there are a number of these mutual a groups. 1:16:20.080 --> 1:16:23.839 If you're in a certain region there at the border, 1:16:23.880 --> 1:16:26.080 there is probably someone near you. I'm no expert on 1:16:26.120 --> 1:16:28.240 all of them, but you can look at like no 1:16:28.320 --> 1:16:33.960 Massa Weds in Arizona Armadio's believe. I think they, I 1:16:33.960 --> 1:16:35.760 don't know. They operate also in Texas, but certainly in 1:16:36.000 --> 1:16:40.000 that California Arizona area. You can look at border angels. 1:16:40.000 --> 1:16:42.360 A border angels are probably the biggest, most public facing one, 1:16:42.439 --> 1:16:45.559 and they are fantastic right They're out there making sure 1:16:45.560 --> 1:16:47.759 that there are cashes of water for people who are crossing, 1:16:47.920 --> 1:16:50.240 making sure that when it's cold at night there are 1:16:50.240 --> 1:16:53.559 warm clothes, and when it's hot there are clothes suitable 1:16:53.600 --> 1:16:56.519 for that weather, right, maybe in a new backpack, canned food. 1:16:56.880 --> 1:17:01.200 They're like doing the active stuff that stops people or dying. Um, 1:17:01.520 --> 1:17:04.360 And that's invaluable, right, And it's also important in terms 1:17:04.360 --> 1:17:07.040 of showing that like they'll often right things I've seen 1:17:07.080 --> 1:17:10.439 like like you're welcome, right, welcome to this country or whatever. 1:17:10.600 --> 1:17:13.280 It's showing that most of us don't agree with this 1:17:13.439 --> 1:17:17.360 dehumanizing brutalization of migrants that state is doing on our behalf, 1:17:17.560 --> 1:17:20.479 and so showing that welcome it's very important. There are 1:17:20.520 --> 1:17:23.360 lots of indigenous groups. Um. I did ask if I 1:17:23.360 --> 1:17:24.840 could name them, but that they didn't get back to me, 1:17:24.840 --> 1:17:26.679 so I don't want to. But like there are groups 1:17:26.720 --> 1:17:28.840 within the toronaud M nation and their groups within the 1:17:28.920 --> 1:17:32.479 Kumi nation. I'm sure there are groups within other tribes 1:17:32.960 --> 1:17:36.679 whom the border crossed, right, who lived in this area 1:17:36.840 --> 1:17:38.800 long before it was a border, who are also out 1:17:38.840 --> 1:17:42.000 there helping people. There are also individuals helping people out 1:17:42.080 --> 1:17:46.639 on their property. Right. If you if you can't find 1:17:46.640 --> 1:17:47.840 how to donate to one of those groups, you can 1:17:47.880 --> 1:17:50.200 reach out to me. That's fine. But yeah, I think 1:17:50.200 --> 1:17:52.479 the work they're doing is invaluable both in terms of 1:17:52.520 --> 1:17:55.880 like showing people that they are welcome and in terms 1:17:55.880 --> 1:17:58.439 of saving lives. Right, more and more people die at 1:17:58.439 --> 1:18:01.880 the border every year, especially Lee with things like Title 1:18:01.960 --> 1:18:06.840 forty two, which we can get into with MPP sure. 1:18:07.320 --> 1:18:09.960 So Title forty two, it's a public it's part of 1:18:09.960 --> 1:18:12.040 a public health law. It's very antiquated. I think it 1:18:12.080 --> 1:18:15.000 was last used in the nineteen thirties. The idea behind 1:18:15.080 --> 1:18:18.000 it was to stop people with tuberculosis coming into the 1:18:18.040 --> 1:18:22.840 United States and if they have and um um, if 1:18:22.880 --> 1:18:25.439 they have an infectious to transmissible disease I think it's called, 1:18:25.600 --> 1:18:28.840 then they can be immediately sent back without processing. Right. 1:18:29.680 --> 1:18:31.400 This was part of a whole suite of things that 1:18:31.400 --> 1:18:34.160 they used to do to laborers coming north. Right. They 1:18:34.200 --> 1:18:37.559 would also spray them with all kinds of insecticides, which 1:18:37.600 --> 1:18:42.080 obviously is not good for the health. So Title fully two, 1:18:42.320 --> 1:18:44.479 the idea being, you know, you get if you present 1:18:44.520 --> 1:18:46.639 to me at the border and I'm a border patrol 1:18:46.680 --> 1:18:51.520 guy and you're like coughing up a lung and obviously tuberculous, cuberculous, 1:18:51.520 --> 1:18:56.360 I don't know, you have to tubercule, yeah, tuberculastic, then 1:18:56.600 --> 1:18:58.720 I will send you back and just be like, no, 1:18:58.840 --> 1:19:01.519 Robert off until you're healthy. You're going to infect everyone 1:19:01.560 --> 1:19:04.080 else here, especially if I detain you. Now, what it's 1:19:04.120 --> 1:19:07.920 being used to do with COVID nineteen is to not 1:19:08.120 --> 1:19:10.719 process migrants right, to do what's called catch and release, 1:19:10.840 --> 1:19:14.000 just bump them south and let them go. What that 1:19:14.280 --> 1:19:18.400 means is that these so normally you could cross surrender 1:19:18.479 --> 1:19:21.559 to a CBP AG and that's another miss miss understanding. Right, 1:19:21.560 --> 1:19:23.360 a lot of people will want to surrender right there 1:19:23.439 --> 1:19:27.000 that they they have no intention of not being processed. 1:19:28.080 --> 1:19:30.280 For certain countries is something called a TPS, which I'll 1:19:30.280 --> 1:19:32.519 explain in the second, which which there will be no 1:19:32.560 --> 1:19:35.800 reason for them not to be processed. So these people 1:19:35.800 --> 1:19:38.400 will cross, and now they could just get dumped on 1:19:38.400 --> 1:19:40.320 the other side, right, it doesn't matter if they are 1:19:40.360 --> 1:19:42.240 a person who is pregnant, doesn't matter, if the elderly, 1:19:42.280 --> 1:19:44.200 doesn't matter, if there medically compromised. A week, they can't 1:19:44.200 --> 1:19:48.160 just get dumped. What this has meant is that people 1:19:48.200 --> 1:19:50.479 who are helping them cross, right, people who maybe charge 1:19:50.520 --> 1:19:53.840 your fee for helping them cross, are offering like crossings 1:19:53.880 --> 1:19:57.760 without limits. You we'll just try again, try again, and 1:19:57.800 --> 1:20:00.000 it means, like I said before, because of the combination 1:20:00.280 --> 1:20:03.360 this and then this, this hostile infrastructure that we're building, right, 1:20:03.400 --> 1:20:06.200 this border wall system, that people will try crossing in 1:20:06.280 --> 1:20:10.840 more and more remote places. Right. That is when people 1:20:10.920 --> 1:20:13.840 die crossing, is when they cry and cross in in 1:20:13.920 --> 1:20:17.120 places that are hotter, that are more arduous. Right, it 1:20:17.160 --> 1:20:20.120 requires days of walking sometimes and like, and I've been 1:20:20.160 --> 1:20:22.080 in that terrain. I spend a lot of my time 1:20:22.080 --> 1:20:24.599 out there, and like for a long time it's been 1:20:24.600 --> 1:20:26.200 more or less my job to be outside out there, 1:20:26.200 --> 1:20:29.200 and it is hard. So if I imagine crossing with 1:20:29.200 --> 1:20:30.920 everything I need to start my new life and carrying 1:20:30.960 --> 1:20:34.320 my child, it's very difficult for me. And I'm more 1:20:34.360 --> 1:20:37.919 accustomed to it than most, so it's it's very difficult 1:20:37.920 --> 1:20:40.160 and forcing people to just kind of bounce back. Because 1:20:40.160 --> 1:20:44.479 when we drop someone in Mexico, right, if they are Guatemalan, Honduran, 1:20:44.600 --> 1:20:50.640 they don't have any network there, Right, it doesn't exactly help. Like, uh, 1:20:51.720 --> 1:20:54.160 like sometimes we like this construct that like the border 1:20:54.280 --> 1:20:58.719 fuels crime, right, Like crime is like they talk about 1:20:58.760 --> 1:21:02.080 like like sometimes cartels is far too broadly used. Nearly 1:21:02.120 --> 1:21:05.120 always it's far too broadly used. But this idea that 1:21:05.160 --> 1:21:08.880 the board of funds like drug running an organization such 1:21:08.920 --> 1:21:11.960 as that, Well, you don't help by dumping someone where 1:21:11.960 --> 1:21:13.960 they have no other means of making a living, right, 1:21:13.960 --> 1:21:16.840 where they're going to be very poor and now they 1:21:16.840 --> 1:21:18.280 don't have any mate and I have anyone to go 1:21:18.360 --> 1:21:20.960 to to ask for help, write like, I don't blame 1:21:20.960 --> 1:21:22.719 people for trying to find a way to do something 1:21:22.760 --> 1:21:27.400 so understandably, like if I don't think I think it's 1:21:27.479 --> 1:21:31.320 largely a lie that that any significant number of people 1:21:31.400 --> 1:21:35.840 sort of running drugs across the border are migrants or um. 1:21:35.880 --> 1:21:38.000 You know, I think that's that's largely a racist lie. 1:21:38.680 --> 1:21:42.639 But leaving people dislocated there is a recipe for poverty, 1:21:43.200 --> 1:21:47.360 and I can't things like crime do happen more. I 1:21:47.400 --> 1:21:49.240 guess when people are poor and don't have any other options, 1:21:49.760 --> 1:21:52.720 that makes sense if we go back to TPS really quickly, 1:21:52.760 --> 1:21:55.640 because I think that's important to temporary protected status. Right, 1:21:55.880 --> 1:21:59.920 You'll see people on Twitter talking about TPS. Whether bids 1:22:00.000 --> 1:22:02.240 only means is that they can't deport you back to 1:22:02.320 --> 1:22:06.160 a country. So it took Biden an obscenely long time 1:22:06.160 --> 1:22:09.679 to grant a TPS for the people from Ukraine. Right, 1:22:09.880 --> 1:22:16.320 Five something people went into the deportation system between the 1:22:16.479 --> 1:22:21.720 time in like November December, when Biden's administration started being 1:22:21.760 --> 1:22:23.760 like there is going to be war in Ukraine and 1:22:23.840 --> 1:22:27.040 Russians are going to invade Ukraine, they were still actively 1:22:27.080 --> 1:22:29.519 in the process of sending people back to Ukraine at 1:22:29.560 --> 1:22:31.479 that time, and it wasn't until about a week into 1:22:31.479 --> 1:22:34.800 the shooting war that they said, Okay, Temporary protected DATUS, 1:22:34.880 --> 1:22:36.839 we won't send you back. It exists for other countries, 1:22:37.080 --> 1:22:41.920 exists for Haiti, it exists for me and mar Burma. Right. Um. 1:22:42.439 --> 1:22:43.960 I don't know if it exists for Syria or I 1:22:43.960 --> 1:22:47.960 think it does, but these countries where basically like, we 1:22:48.040 --> 1:22:52.040 won't send you back there. And TPS is very important, 1:22:52.360 --> 1:22:55.280 right because it stops people being deported to places where 1:22:55.280 --> 1:22:58.479 they will die. And it's important to understand that, like 1:22:58.520 --> 1:23:00.559 you could have everything right into am, you're a sign 1:23:00.560 --> 1:23:03.920 an application, and still be sent back. It's a cruel 1:23:04.160 --> 1:23:07.240 and very impersonal system. So a TPS is important and 1:23:07.240 --> 1:23:09.479 if you're into sort of advocating for laws, then it's 1:23:09.479 --> 1:23:14.639 an important thing to advocate for. I think yeah, Um, 1:23:14.720 --> 1:23:17.759 in terms of more, I think that's important because we 1:23:17.760 --> 1:23:20.920 we kind of the electoral side of things is not 1:23:21.080 --> 1:23:22.800 does not tend to be our focus here, but it's 1:23:22.840 --> 1:23:24.720 also not useless. Like the border is one of the 1:23:24.800 --> 1:23:28.680 areas most clearly where you can see both how advocating 1:23:28.720 --> 1:23:31.639 in that realm can immediately improve people's lives and also 1:23:31.760 --> 1:23:35.040 how both sides of the political spectrum use the border 1:23:35.040 --> 1:23:37.439 as a weapon to hurt. Yeah, exactly. The board is 1:23:37.439 --> 1:23:39.800 definitely a stage for both sides political theater. Like look 1:23:39.800 --> 1:23:42.280 at Joe Biden, right, he's coming in, he's signing this declaration. 1:23:42.280 --> 1:23:44.320 On the first day, Remember the day he was inaugurated, 1:23:44.320 --> 1:23:45.760 I went out to the border wall just sat there 1:23:45.760 --> 1:23:49.519 by myself and like wept because it's just this horrible, 1:23:49.640 --> 1:23:52.080 ugly thing that's such a scar on the place that 1:23:52.120 --> 1:23:56.960 I love. And uh, he's done fun all right, and 1:23:57.120 --> 1:23:59.600 he's deporting more people than Trump and he's building his 1:23:59.640 --> 1:24:01.320 own by and barrier, which is the same thing with 1:24:01.360 --> 1:24:03.760 that an anti client plate. But yeah, like, even if 1:24:03.800 --> 1:24:06.479 you don't agree with the existence of laws and lawmakers, right, 1:24:06.520 --> 1:24:09.799 this this concept that I like a lot, called normative anarchism. 1:24:09.880 --> 1:24:11.760 I think it's Wolf, the guy who wrote it. But 1:24:11.880 --> 1:24:15.040 like we can move towards the state doing less cruelty 1:24:15.040 --> 1:24:16.479 and being a little more free, and that is a 1:24:16.520 --> 1:24:18.800 move in the right direction, even if it's not the 1:24:18.920 --> 1:24:20.840 end goal. And I think the border is a place 1:24:20.840 --> 1:24:23.840 where you can really make a difference like that, right, 1:24:23.880 --> 1:24:28.599 Like some small changes in how things are done would 1:24:28.640 --> 1:24:32.800 reduce the cruelty to people who have done nothing wrong massively. 1:24:32.880 --> 1:24:34.599 So I think it is an area where even those 1:24:34.600 --> 1:24:37.000 of us who might not be generally inclined to like 1:24:37.040 --> 1:24:40.720 electoral staff like you can I think I don't know 1:24:40.880 --> 1:24:42.840 if you can make a distance because like so many 1:24:42.840 --> 1:24:45.320 people in Milwaukee are watching Fox News and a fucking 1:24:45.400 --> 1:24:48.640 completely convinced that the border is just I don't know, 1:24:48.680 --> 1:24:52.160 people with guns trying to smuggle children or whatever. But yeah, 1:24:52.160 --> 1:24:54.800 it's an area where small changes in policy make a 1:24:54.880 --> 1:24:57.599 huge Title forty two right, not even a law, it's 1:24:57.640 --> 1:24:59.640 an executive or it's not even executive, or it's an 1:24:59.640 --> 1:25:03.880 interpret tation. Uh the war, right, most of that ship 1:25:04.000 --> 1:25:06.400 wasn't built by Congress. It was built by executive orders. 1:25:06.479 --> 1:25:10.280 So like that stuff, I think is a place where 1:25:10.280 --> 1:25:13.759 you can you can affect positive change for people now unfortunate. 1:25:13.800 --> 1:25:15.160 We've got to drive fucking wall. And I don't think 1:25:15.160 --> 1:25:16.960 it's coming down anytime soon. But it doesn't mean we 1:25:17.000 --> 1:25:19.840 shouldn't actively try to make things kind of for people 1:25:19.880 --> 1:25:22.679 coming here now. On the direct action side of things, 1:25:22.720 --> 1:25:25.559 which I think more of our audience tends to support. 1:25:25.720 --> 1:25:29.240 One of the most obvious things is just like setting 1:25:29.240 --> 1:25:31.960 out as you said, like drops of water, food equipment. Now, 1:25:32.000 --> 1:25:34.720 that's kind of depending on where you are, can be 1:25:34.800 --> 1:25:37.479 shall always say complex from a legal standpoint. Can you 1:25:37.479 --> 1:25:39.880 talk to that a little bit, Yes, certainly. So. Like 1:25:40.120 --> 1:25:43.000 the obvious cases are one in Arizona, right, which eventually 1:25:43.160 --> 1:25:48.320 ended up the person was vindicated, but vindicated to around 1:25:48.320 --> 1:25:52.000 word but not didn't go to prison exactly. Yeah, yeah, 1:25:52.680 --> 1:25:55.679 what he was doing was right from the start. But yeah, 1:25:55.720 --> 1:25:57.640 it can be complex, I think, especially if you're in 1:25:57.640 --> 1:26:01.200 some of these states which are like doing culture war, 1:26:01.400 --> 1:26:05.760 right like Arizona in Texas. Yeah, the cruelty is kind 1:26:05.760 --> 1:26:08.800 of the point. So if you are doing something to 1:26:08.840 --> 1:26:11.200 alleviate that cruelty, making an example if you was very 1:26:11.240 --> 1:26:13.320 much in the interest of those cultural war politicians and 1:26:13.400 --> 1:26:16.559 judges and other people, which is why it's important to 1:26:16.560 --> 1:26:18.880 do it with a mutual aid group, right, Like these 1:26:18.920 --> 1:26:23.160 groups are not just like randos, They are extremely organized. 1:26:23.200 --> 1:26:26.200 I would also just caution that, like going out into 1:26:26.200 --> 1:26:29.080 the desert on your own is extremely fucking dangerous. The 1:26:29.160 --> 1:26:31.320 desert can kill you with heat and day. It can 1:26:31.400 --> 1:26:33.160 kill you with the cold nights, sometimes on the same 1:26:33.400 --> 1:26:36.680 day and night. Right, this is a hard place. I'm 1:26:36.680 --> 1:26:38.000 not saying you shouldn't go out there. You should. It's 1:26:38.040 --> 1:26:40.479 it's an amazing place, but you should be careful. You 1:26:40.520 --> 1:26:43.599 should go with the group. So if you're living somewhere 1:26:43.640 --> 1:26:45.960 along the border, there is a group of people who 1:26:46.000 --> 1:26:49.640 are doing this, they will understand what is legal and correct. Like, 1:26:49.680 --> 1:26:52.000 for instance, if you are not a citizen, if you're 1:26:52.040 --> 1:26:54.920 a Green card holder, you should probably not go down 1:26:54.920 --> 1:26:56.800 to the border with jugs of water. You should maybe 1:26:56.800 --> 1:26:59.360 do some fundraising, you should you should maybe do something else. 1:27:00.080 --> 1:27:02.000 And that's fine, right, You're still part of a system 1:27:02.040 --> 1:27:06.240 which is helping people. But yes, there have been some prosecutions. 1:27:06.240 --> 1:27:09.240 I think in California there haven't been any to my 1:27:09.320 --> 1:27:12.959 knowledge for a while. Um. There is also some interesting 1:27:13.040 --> 1:27:16.880 tech developments. One a few a long time ago, now 1:27:17.360 --> 1:27:20.200 called the trans Border Migrant Tool, which was mapping out 1:27:20.320 --> 1:27:22.719 like what at the time, we didn't have the border 1:27:22.760 --> 1:27:26.200 wall them, right, but like water cashier's locations of CDP checkpoints, 1:27:26.200 --> 1:27:28.080 and then I guess it was using Google Maps to 1:27:28.120 --> 1:27:33.200 make roots, which it was created by a faculty member 1:27:33.240 --> 1:27:35.439 who at time was at the University of California, who 1:27:35.560 --> 1:27:39.599 faced pretty terrible career repercussions for doing it. But there 1:27:39.600 --> 1:27:41.080 are things like that that people can do too, right, 1:27:41.120 --> 1:27:43.719 which you can do from your bedroom if that's your preference, 1:27:43.720 --> 1:27:46.080 if that's how you prefer to help. But yeah, I 1:27:46.080 --> 1:27:50.400 would caution about just going out there. Always looked for groups, right, 1:27:50.400 --> 1:27:52.920 there are people for whom this is their entire life 1:27:52.920 --> 1:27:57.040 of activism. You can also I'm sure, I hope I'm 1:27:57.040 --> 1:27:58.679 not putting a bunch of like work on their plate. 1:27:58.720 --> 1:28:03.880 But talked lad see what they suggest. Right Altro Lado 1:28:04.000 --> 1:28:07.240 the other side, that's this legal a group you can 1:28:07.320 --> 1:28:09.439 just call them. I'm sure that they they think They've 1:28:09.439 --> 1:28:12.040 been very helpful to me when I've been when I've 1:28:12.040 --> 1:28:15.519 needed help for people I'm working with. Talk to them 1:28:15.520 --> 1:28:18.320 about what is what is legal and sensible and what's not. 1:28:18.360 --> 1:28:20.320 Whether it's better to give your money or give your 1:28:20.360 --> 1:28:22.919 time or what you can do. Give them the resources 1:28:22.920 --> 1:28:25.600 available to you, I guess. And you can also just 1:28:25.640 --> 1:28:28.080 show kindness to refugees in your community too. That they're 1:28:28.080 --> 1:28:32.400 probably there, whether or not they're visible is a different question, 1:28:32.439 --> 1:28:34.840 but that's you know, there are places where you can 1:28:34.880 --> 1:28:38.320 help people. Another one I should mention, actually just for 1:28:38.360 --> 1:28:41.360 folks who are inclined to help in a different way 1:28:41.360 --> 1:28:43.920 I guess is people just feeding people. Like I really 1:28:43.960 --> 1:28:46.519 don't think you can ever blame someone for feeding hungry persons, 1:28:46.520 --> 1:28:48.760 So food not bombs. Food not bombs are always cool, 1:28:48.880 --> 1:28:51.679 right if if you want to do kindness without state 1:28:51.720 --> 1:28:54.080 food not bombs, there is one in your area. Look, 1:28:54.120 --> 1:28:57.920 come up, um and World Central Kitchen, which is Jose 1:28:58.080 --> 1:29:01.200 Andres the chef. Yeahs in Ukraine and his guys just 1:29:01.240 --> 1:29:03.560 got Sheldon Ukraine. That's right. Yeah, yeah, a number of 1:29:03.600 --> 1:29:07.519 them got shelved in Khaki. But I think those people 1:29:07.920 --> 1:29:11.800 like I do understand that he has some labor issues. Yeah, 1:29:11.800 --> 1:29:14.720 although I think he's he recently like came out and 1:29:14.760 --> 1:29:16.439 said that he had been wrong on that. I'd have 1:29:16.479 --> 1:29:20.240 to double check, but yeah, that's impressive. Like I've said 1:29:20.240 --> 1:29:22.479 this before, this dude pivoted his whole life after seeing 1:29:22.560 --> 1:29:25.240 what happened in Haiti to feeding people who are hungry 1:29:25.280 --> 1:29:26.960 all over the world. So I do believe he's capable 1:29:26.960 --> 1:29:28.800 of change, and hopefully he can change and treat his 1:29:28.840 --> 1:29:32.320 workers with decency in respect as well. But anywhere I 1:29:32.360 --> 1:29:36.479 am right where there is a humanitarian crisis inside the US, 1:29:36.560 --> 1:29:39.280 outside the US, those people are there first, They're there 1:29:39.320 --> 1:29:41.600 before the Red Cross and if they don't seem to 1:29:41.640 --> 1:29:44.839 get tied up in the bureaucratic ship that most large 1:29:45.320 --> 1:29:48.439 global NGOs do. Like I've been in refugee camps where 1:29:48.520 --> 1:29:51.880 MSF and Red Cross outside not doing anything. Yeah, if 1:29:51.920 --> 1:29:55.400 you anywhere I have been where there are large groups 1:29:55.400 --> 1:30:00.479 of refugees, refugee camps, people dealing with violence. The the 1:30:00.520 --> 1:30:05.240 most commonly cursed groups are often in g os, yes, yeah, yeah, 1:30:05.240 --> 1:30:08.080 there are you know, people in white Land was people 1:30:08.080 --> 1:30:11.000 in fancy hotel lobbies, you know, Like that makes me 1:30:11.080 --> 1:30:13.439 very angry and very sad. But I don't see that 1:30:13.479 --> 1:30:17.160 with w c K, like I have consistently seen them 1:30:17.320 --> 1:30:21.280 in there's pretty dire situations, you know, like times that 1:30:22.240 --> 1:30:25.120 give me bad sleeps, you know, and that they're always 1:30:25.160 --> 1:30:28.599 there helping people. So then there are also church groups 1:30:28.600 --> 1:30:30.400 in lots of communities. Like I'm not a religious person, 1:30:30.479 --> 1:30:32.320 but like I really can't fault any of these church 1:30:32.360 --> 1:30:34.439 groups that I've seen coming down from San Diego to 1:30:34.479 --> 1:30:38.040 Tijuana to feed and help people, But I would probably 1:30:38.040 --> 1:30:42.240 stay clear of those giant NGOs with your giving. I've 1:30:42.240 --> 1:30:45.679 just seen them be considered bureaucratic and less effective. Yeah, 1:30:45.720 --> 1:30:47.960 I mean one of the rules. This is harder when 1:30:47.960 --> 1:30:50.160 it's a conflict far from home and you know, you 1:30:50.200 --> 1:30:52.200 see some news that makes you want to help, but 1:30:52.280 --> 1:30:54.439 you don't have any connections. But if you can never 1:30:54.479 --> 1:30:56.960 talk to people on the ground there, it's always best 1:30:57.000 --> 1:31:01.120 to ask them, like, who's actually doing anything, um, because 1:31:01.160 --> 1:31:04.880 sometimes it is MSF you know, sometimes uh it is 1:31:04.920 --> 1:31:08.000 one of these larger organizations, but oftentimes they'll tell you, like, 1:31:08.640 --> 1:31:10.799 you know, the the group when I was in Mosle 1:31:10.880 --> 1:31:12.960 that got the most consistent praise from people who are 1:31:13.000 --> 1:31:16.000 like living there was the Free Barmer Rangers, right, Like 1:31:16.040 --> 1:31:18.640 there were all these massive international organizations, but when it 1:31:18.680 --> 1:31:20.240 came right down to it, the people who were like 1:31:20.680 --> 1:31:23.720 running under gunfire to pull wounded civilians out where you 1:31:23.760 --> 1:31:27.000 know those folks. Yeah, yeah, those those guys do some 1:31:27.160 --> 1:31:29.599 do some very brave stuff. Definitely, And yeah, it is 1:31:29.680 --> 1:31:31.800 normally you can find people on Facebook, like I've never 1:31:31.920 --> 1:31:33.880 been in a sort of situation with a lot of 1:31:33.880 --> 1:31:37.000 displaced people. What people were not actively on Facebook and 1:31:37.040 --> 1:31:39.200 you can find people there they just just like you 1:31:39.320 --> 1:31:40.840 just want to have a chat. And again, it's nice 1:31:40.840 --> 1:31:43.160 to have a chat. That's such an important point too, 1:31:43.200 --> 1:31:45.840 because I think that number one, people are often and 1:31:45.920 --> 1:31:48.439 it's easier, right, Like everyone has limited time, but you 1:31:48.520 --> 1:31:52.200 kind of leave it to whatever media you trust to 1:31:52.280 --> 1:31:55.160 connect you to people in these desperate circumstances, and like 1:31:55.960 --> 1:31:58.760 people tend to want to connect who are dealing with 1:31:58.840 --> 1:32:00.880 something like that, who are fleeing violence, who are and 1:32:00.880 --> 1:32:04.680 they also are connected, like they're not separate from the 1:32:04.720 --> 1:32:06.559 rest of the world just because they've had to leave 1:32:06.600 --> 1:32:09.639 their home behind and they're they're generally not excluded from 1:32:09.720 --> 1:32:14.360 the information networks that we all existed. Yeah, yeah, I think, 1:32:14.400 --> 1:32:16.920 And sometimes the portrayed is like we talk about them, 1:32:16.960 --> 1:32:18.800 not to them far too often the media, and that 1:32:18.840 --> 1:32:21.639 makes me mad, right, Like I see that all the time. 1:32:21.760 --> 1:32:24.640 I see that happening when I'm doing reporting, right, I'll 1:32:24.640 --> 1:32:26.880 see people hanging out on the peripheries in these camps. 1:32:26.880 --> 1:32:29.000 I understand some people are worried about COVID or whatever, 1:32:29.040 --> 1:32:32.519 but some of those people, right, like, uh, to be 1:32:32.560 --> 1:32:35.200 safe and be sensible, and yeah, that these people want 1:32:35.200 --> 1:32:37.760 to talk. I remember one thing that always sticks out, Well, 1:32:37.800 --> 1:32:40.000 they want the same things that we want, remembered. So 1:32:40.080 --> 1:32:43.840 in migrant caravan, they were moved from they need to 1:32:43.920 --> 1:32:46.920 Quid a sports complex to this old nightclub a bit 1:32:46.920 --> 1:32:49.240 further south, further away from the border. Right. It was 1:32:49.240 --> 1:32:51.280 a very weird scene. It was this big nightclub with 1:32:51.360 --> 1:32:55.720 like the mirrors and the dancing poles and the disco balls, 1:32:55.760 --> 1:32:57.559 but it had been like moth balls for like ten years. 1:32:57.560 --> 1:32:59.720 It was all dusty. They had a special room for 1:33:00.840 --> 1:33:03.719 people who were pregnant, people can people who had had children, 1:33:04.320 --> 1:33:07.280 and and the young children themselves, right, they were sort 1:33:07.320 --> 1:33:10.320 of just to keep them safe. And we were going 1:33:10.360 --> 1:33:11.479 there and it was weird because they were still like 1:33:11.560 --> 1:33:15.360 mirrors on the floor. But then I remember these kids, 1:33:16.120 --> 1:33:17.679 you talk to them, right, you know what do you want? 1:33:17.800 --> 1:33:19.600 And like, first of all, one kid asked me for 1:33:19.600 --> 1:33:21.400 a Teddy Bear and it just broke my heart, Like 1:33:21.600 --> 1:33:24.880 I don't know why, it just level me. Uh. And 1:33:24.920 --> 1:33:27.800 then they wanted to like you know that they had 1:33:27.880 --> 1:33:30.400 enjoyed the same Disney films that kids here had, right, 1:33:30.439 --> 1:33:33.920 so my buddy managed to acquire a projector. We went 1:33:33.960 --> 1:33:37.200 into the ceiling, rigged up this projector and just set 1:33:37.280 --> 1:33:41.000 up like Beverly Hills Chihuahua playing on one water this nightclub. 1:33:41.000 --> 1:33:43.680 And these kids are like, it's Beverly Hills Chihuahua. Like 1:33:44.000 --> 1:33:46.479 let's go like the you know, they were just kids 1:33:46.479 --> 1:33:48.760 watching a film, like like like they can be anywhere else, 1:33:48.800 --> 1:33:51.200 and it's really easy to see them ast like different 1:33:51.280 --> 1:33:53.800 or week or you know. The way they're portraying the 1:33:53.840 --> 1:33:56.280 media is like people without agency and they're not like 1:33:56.320 --> 1:33:58.799 they've taken huge amounts of agency to try and improve 1:33:58.840 --> 1:34:02.360 their lives. And it's also so much focus is on 1:34:02.400 --> 1:34:05.480 these things that aren't you know, medicine, food that are necessary, 1:34:05.600 --> 1:34:09.920 but like having a normal moment where you're like a 1:34:10.000 --> 1:34:12.439 kid watching a cartoon or playing with a toy, it's 1:34:12.479 --> 1:34:17.200 also necessary. Yeah, Like, these children will be scarred by 1:34:17.240 --> 1:34:19.880 their experiences, right by whatever is causing to flee, by 1:34:19.880 --> 1:34:21.680 the flight itself, and by the process of coming to 1:34:21.760 --> 1:34:24.400 the into the country, but yeah, we should do everything 1:34:24.439 --> 1:34:27.559 we can to protect them from those traumatic experiences and 1:34:27.600 --> 1:34:30.080 just play Like I cannot count the amount of times 1:34:30.120 --> 1:34:32.720 I have been like ship housed in a game of 1:34:32.720 --> 1:34:34.760 football by six year olds trying to come to the 1:34:34.800 --> 1:34:37.360 United States, right like, so things like that, Remember someone 1:34:37.400 --> 1:34:39.320 donated a couple of football goals, I too, come down 1:34:39.320 --> 1:34:41.639 and set them up. And then yeah, just having those 1:34:41.680 --> 1:34:45.400 moments of normalcy, those moments of fun like little little 1:34:45.520 --> 1:34:49.240 plastic ukuleles and stuff like. We're very important because it 1:34:49.360 --> 1:34:51.120 let kids be kids. And then that's you know, they 1:34:51.200 --> 1:34:54.599 have every right to do that. Well, James, I think 1:34:54.640 --> 1:34:56.880 that's going to make a suda for us. You want 1:34:56.880 --> 1:35:00.280 to throw your plug doubles in before we roll out? Yeah, uh, 1:35:00.720 --> 1:35:02.760 I want to plug, like like I said before, doing 1:35:02.800 --> 1:35:05.559 things to help people outside of networks that let people 1:35:05.600 --> 1:35:09.400 have power over people. To do that first, and then yeah, 1:35:09.439 --> 1:35:11.840 you can put my name James Stout into Twitter and 1:35:11.920 --> 1:35:14.240 find me. I have a Patreon by the same thing 1:35:14.800 --> 1:35:17.000 right about the border a lot. You can see it 1:35:17.120 --> 1:35:19.840 in um if I just plug one popular p O 1:35:19.880 --> 1:35:23.559 p U l A about migrant caravan so you can 1:35:23.600 --> 1:35:26.559 read my writing there. Feel free to message me if 1:35:26.600 --> 1:35:28.880 you want to find any of these groups and you can't. Yeah, 1:35:28.880 --> 1:35:31.479 it's all right, Well that's going to do it for us. 1:35:32.160 --> 1:35:56.040 Go do something good. Yeah, the podcast has started. Start 1:35:56.200 --> 1:35:58.160 this is this is it could happen here, this is 1:35:58.200 --> 1:36:00.719 it could happen here. That's right, and you're Robert Evans. 1:36:00.760 --> 1:36:07.120 We also have Shrine, Lanny Nis, and Christopher Wong with us. Christopher, Hi, Yeah, 1:36:07.160 --> 1:36:09.439 I guess I'm sort of running this show today, even 1:36:09.439 --> 1:36:14.599 to Robert has You're right done? The intro question mark? Um, 1:36:14.640 --> 1:36:17.519 always with a question mark. That's how the pros do it? 1:36:18.880 --> 1:36:25.000 Can you can tell professionals? Yeah? But speak Speaking of professionals, 1:36:25.640 --> 1:36:28.040 we have we have Karina Dominga's with us, who is 1:36:28.080 --> 1:36:30.639 in fact actually a professional and has spent eight years 1:36:30.640 --> 1:36:34.240 working in reproductive health issues of Karina. Welcome to the 1:36:34.240 --> 1:36:37.040 show and thank you for joining us. Thank you, thank 1:36:37.040 --> 1:36:40.520 you for having me. It's lovely to have you Onina. 1:36:40.960 --> 1:36:44.920 What's the what's going on? How are thanks? I think 1:36:45.320 --> 1:36:49.439 things are okay. I think I can say that doesn't 1:36:49.479 --> 1:36:58.960 seem true. Yeah, but they're okay. Um, yeah, okay. I 1:36:59.080 --> 1:37:02.160 pulled them out of crash truck once and as I 1:37:02.200 --> 1:37:04.880 was trying to like staunch the bleeding from a cut 1:37:04.880 --> 1:37:07.440 in his hand, I asked how he was and he said, okay, 1:37:07.720 --> 1:37:13.400 So I'm guessing it's that kind of Okay, you nailed it. Yeah, Karina, 1:37:13.479 --> 1:37:15.439 do you wanna tell us a little bit about your 1:37:15.479 --> 1:37:17.840 background and the work that you do? And you know 1:37:18.320 --> 1:37:21.000 why why why? We We just really wanted to have 1:37:21.120 --> 1:37:24.320 you on the show. Yeah, I would love too. So again, 1:37:24.400 --> 1:37:27.479 my name is Karina Dominguez. I am from Chicago born 1:37:27.479 --> 1:37:31.200 and raised. UM. I've worked in Reproductive Health forum about 1:37:31.240 --> 1:37:34.439 eight years, but really what I consider about fifteen years 1:37:34.520 --> 1:37:37.519 or so. UM. I have experience and working in the 1:37:37.560 --> 1:37:40.599 community and different capacities. UM. I love reproductive health. I'd 1:37:40.600 --> 1:37:44.040 consider myself a reproductive health nerd UM. And it all 1:37:44.080 --> 1:37:46.160 started when I was a teenager growing up in Chicago, 1:37:46.280 --> 1:37:48.400 where just in the city life, you see a lot 1:37:48.439 --> 1:37:50.960 of things that don't really sit well with you. UM. 1:37:50.960 --> 1:37:53.880 I knew a lot of young girls who were getting 1:37:53.880 --> 1:37:58.559 pregnant at young ages, experiencing trauma and specifically sexual trauma UM, 1:37:58.600 --> 1:38:01.320 and not knowing who to go to or where to go. 1:38:01.680 --> 1:38:05.160 So these were mostly young girls of color who I 1:38:05.280 --> 1:38:07.800 cared for a lot. And I immediately knew that I 1:38:07.840 --> 1:38:11.000 wanted to do more activism and that I needed to 1:38:11.040 --> 1:38:14.320 do more activism. And the way my activism looks is 1:38:14.320 --> 1:38:17.040 through my education. So today. I have a master's in 1:38:17.080 --> 1:38:19.160 Public Health UM and I also have a bachelor's in 1:38:19.200 --> 1:38:22.800 public health, and with that education, I've been able to 1:38:23.600 --> 1:38:26.920 provide sexual and reproductive health counseling. I practiced as a 1:38:26.920 --> 1:38:30.439 full spectrum do LA where I have provided abortion care 1:38:30.600 --> 1:38:34.920 for people and also UM provided birthing care for people 1:38:34.920 --> 1:38:38.240 as well. I led a pregnant parenting program at a 1:38:38.280 --> 1:38:42.439 nonprofit for youth experiencing homelessness, and right now I currently 1:38:42.479 --> 1:38:45.759 manage a sexual and Reproductive health grant where we provide 1:38:45.800 --> 1:38:48.320 resources to treatment centers in the l A area to 1:38:48.400 --> 1:38:52.000 integrate sexual and reproductive health for patients in substance use 1:38:52.040 --> 1:38:59.080 disorder treatment. Cool, so we are slacking. That was an 1:38:59.080 --> 1:39:05.559 impressive Yeah, I think the thank you that made us 1:39:05.560 --> 1:39:07.760 want to chat with you. We were having a conversation 1:39:07.760 --> 1:39:11.920 show when the news first dropped that the Supreme Court 1:39:12.040 --> 1:39:15.880 was yeating Roe v. Wade into the sun UM. There 1:39:15.880 --> 1:39:19.320 were a couple of different news agencies that did like 1:39:19.439 --> 1:39:22.280 intern you know, while talking about what options we're going 1:39:22.360 --> 1:39:25.160 to remain for people, that would bring up crisis pregnancy centers, 1:39:25.240 --> 1:39:28.559 which are UM shady as hell as I'm sure we're 1:39:28.560 --> 1:39:30.519 about to talk about. But yeah, so that's that's kind 1:39:30.560 --> 1:39:32.000 of why we brought you and what we brought you 1:39:32.040 --> 1:39:34.240 on initially to talk about. I wonder do you want 1:39:34.240 --> 1:39:37.360 to kind of introduce folks to what those are, because 1:39:38.240 --> 1:39:40.760 the gist of it is, if you like Google, how 1:39:40.760 --> 1:39:44.240 do I like find out if I'm pregnant or like 1:39:44.520 --> 1:39:46.720 you know, I'm pregnant and I need help, There's a 1:39:46.720 --> 1:39:48.920 good chance old Google will take you to one of 1:39:48.960 --> 1:39:51.720 these places, and they are, shall we say, not what 1:39:51.760 --> 1:39:55.760 they seem to be? Yes, I think we can exactly 1:39:55.800 --> 1:39:59.840 say that, um. And I am just going to say 1:40:00.000 --> 1:40:03.960 in the most direct way I possibly could. A crisis 1:40:04.000 --> 1:40:08.160 pregnancy center is essentially a fake medical facility that prays 1:40:08.200 --> 1:40:12.759 on vulnerable people, specifically people who can become pregnant. So yeah, 1:40:12.920 --> 1:40:15.280 you know, we can use the term fake medical clinic, 1:40:15.880 --> 1:40:18.559 um I for the purpose just of using the most 1:40:18.600 --> 1:40:21.400 common term crisis pregnancy center, I'm going to stick to 1:40:21.479 --> 1:40:23.800 using that term. UM. But yes, there are a lot 1:40:23.800 --> 1:40:26.639 of concerns about this, and I'm sure our friend Google 1:40:26.720 --> 1:40:30.360 will pop them up for us really quick. UM. So, 1:40:30.520 --> 1:40:34.719 crisis pregnancy centers usually have names like women's pregnancy center 1:40:34.880 --> 1:40:38.760 or women's health center, something health center. Um and it's 1:40:38.760 --> 1:40:43.640 a very misleading advertisement. So they are anti abortion facilities 1:40:44.000 --> 1:40:48.920 that manipulate people into having a full term pregnancy. So 1:40:49.000 --> 1:40:52.120 these places are usually religious oriented, They have a religious 1:40:52.200 --> 1:40:56.080 agenda and it's not patient lad. So some of these 1:40:56.200 --> 1:41:00.240 larger religious based organizations that fund these what we think 1:41:00.280 --> 1:41:06.240 are smaller tiny clinics are agencies or organizations like care Net, 1:41:06.280 --> 1:41:10.640 Heartbeat International, National Institute of Family and Life, Birthright International, 1:41:10.800 --> 1:41:14.000 and RAMA International. So a lot of times you might 1:41:14.000 --> 1:41:17.519 think you're going to the small, little tiny clinic or 1:41:17.600 --> 1:41:21.639 maybe it's even like a community medical mobile unit, and 1:41:21.880 --> 1:41:25.840 it turns out there backed by big money and bigger agencies. 1:41:26.200 --> 1:41:29.840 So they typically will implant themselves in communities of color, 1:41:30.800 --> 1:41:35.320 um near college campuses, and low income neighborhoods. So what 1:41:35.600 --> 1:41:39.280 is that saying. That's saying that this is a woman's issue, 1:41:39.320 --> 1:41:41.360 this is a trans issue, this is an l g 1:41:41.479 --> 1:41:44.040 B t q I A issue, this is a bipoc issue, 1:41:44.280 --> 1:41:47.720 Black Indigenous people of color, and it's simply just an 1:41:47.720 --> 1:41:51.360 issue for everyone. Yeah, And it's so one of the 1:41:51.360 --> 1:41:53.639 things that's kind of messy about these places is that 1:41:54.160 --> 1:41:56.599 if you look at like investigations into how they work, 1:41:56.640 --> 1:41:59.080 you'll run into a number of stories of women who 1:41:59.080 --> 1:42:01.920 are like, Hey, I actually like always intended to go 1:42:01.960 --> 1:42:04.120 through with my pregnancy. I just needed to like know 1:42:04.240 --> 1:42:06.000 that number one, know that I was pregnant. I needed 1:42:06.000 --> 1:42:09.000 to test or something. And these people advertised they would 1:42:09.000 --> 1:42:10.720 provide that for free, or the advertise that they were 1:42:10.720 --> 1:42:14.040 providing stuff like diapers, you know, basic kind of supplies, 1:42:14.040 --> 1:42:18.519 formula for free, um. And some of them do, most 1:42:18.560 --> 1:42:20.760 of them due to some extent, but nearly all of 1:42:20.800 --> 1:42:22.960 them have some sort of like and this is outside 1:42:22.960 --> 1:42:25.240 of kind of the abortion aspect, access of it, have 1:42:25.360 --> 1:42:27.000 some sort of funked up hoops you have to jump 1:42:27.040 --> 1:42:29.320 through in order to actually get access to any of 1:42:29.320 --> 1:42:32.840 that stuff. Absolutely, yeah, I'm really glad that you brought up, 1:42:32.880 --> 1:42:35.880 like the diaper point. I think that is a really 1:42:36.000 --> 1:42:38.880 essential thing, because they don't not give out stuff, right, 1:42:38.920 --> 1:42:43.240 but it's it's messier than they want to portray it as. Yeah, yeah, totally, 1:42:43.360 --> 1:42:46.240 and and it's a form of manipulation, right, And I 1:42:46.280 --> 1:42:51.800 think too, it's a form of manipulation too to deem 1:42:51.840 --> 1:42:55.880 yourself a full functioning medical facility where they actually don't 1:42:55.880 --> 1:42:59.559 provide those comprehensive services and sometimes you know, they might 1:42:59.600 --> 1:43:02.600 even say the outside like HIV testing, s I v M, 1:43:02.840 --> 1:43:08.240 STI testing, HIV testing, um, and they're simply not evidence 1:43:08.280 --> 1:43:11.879 based practices. So what I mean by an evidence evidence 1:43:12.040 --> 1:43:17.680 based practice is something like condom use. We know very 1:43:17.760 --> 1:43:20.960 well at this day and age that condoms are essential 1:43:21.720 --> 1:43:25.280 to prevent s t I S and HIV transmission. So 1:43:25.960 --> 1:43:28.040 a lot of these clinics they might even say like, 1:43:28.160 --> 1:43:30.680 condoms don't decrease your chances of s t I S. 1:43:30.720 --> 1:43:33.080 They don't really matter. They're not really doing anything. And 1:43:33.200 --> 1:43:35.760 that is a really big piece of information that we 1:43:35.840 --> 1:43:39.240 need to know as the average person, because that means 1:43:39.320 --> 1:43:41.599 we have a lot of young people going to these 1:43:41.640 --> 1:43:45.920 clinics and having even their foundational sexual health education at 1:43:46.000 --> 1:43:49.680 these facilities. So this is a really really important thing 1:43:49.760 --> 1:43:52.479 to take note of. UM And I would say that 1:43:52.920 --> 1:43:54.920 you know a lot of people even in my life, 1:43:54.960 --> 1:43:59.000 that have gone to crisis pregnancy centers by accident. Um 1:43:59.439 --> 1:44:02.320 are you know, being told that they can do STI testing, 1:44:02.520 --> 1:44:05.120 HIV testing, and even birth control and then as soon 1:44:05.160 --> 1:44:07.320 as you go there, you realize that's not what's happening. 1:44:07.920 --> 1:44:11.400 Usually it's going to be a lot of pregnancy related 1:44:11.439 --> 1:44:15.080 services like ultrasounds and pregnancy tests, which we know if 1:44:15.120 --> 1:44:17.840 you're an actual clinic that's those aren't the only things 1:44:17.880 --> 1:44:21.200 that someone would need for essential health care. But I 1:44:21.240 --> 1:44:26.240 would say even more like going into the manipulation and um, 1:44:26.400 --> 1:44:29.400 the gas lighting that they do within these facilities, which 1:44:29.520 --> 1:44:33.720 in my eyes is medical violence. UM. They provide even 1:44:33.840 --> 1:44:37.400 mandatory ultrasounds, make someone sit there to look at the ultrasound. 1:44:37.960 --> 1:44:42.320 They make fearful videos of misleading information about what abortions are, 1:44:42.439 --> 1:44:45.840 and sometimes even have someone who's not a medical provider 1:44:46.360 --> 1:44:48.880 showing what an abortion is in their eyes, and the 1:44:49.000 --> 1:44:51.640 video maybe of a baby that's whose limbs are being 1:44:51.720 --> 1:44:56.200 ripped apart um. Even giving information like abortions can lead 1:44:56.240 --> 1:44:59.320 to breast cancer or if you have abortion, you'll never 1:44:59.400 --> 1:45:01.080 be able to have a child, and this is your 1:45:01.120 --> 1:45:05.479 one and only opportunity um. And sometimes even going further, 1:45:06.000 --> 1:45:09.400 you know they are sneaky and what they do, because 1:45:09.439 --> 1:45:13.320 they might even have programs that will say parent program 1:45:13.800 --> 1:45:17.960 UM or youth sexual health program and even with that 1:45:18.120 --> 1:45:23.160 they're giving religious based agendas um. And they are telling 1:45:23.200 --> 1:45:26.920 people misinformation about sexual health and even so might even 1:45:27.000 --> 1:45:32.439 talk about very heterosexual sex marriage. All of the above 1:45:32.640 --> 1:45:36.040 so there is a very specific agenda that is going 1:45:36.120 --> 1:45:39.240 on here. Um. And we know too that a lot 1:45:39.320 --> 1:45:41.599 of these agencies can be really sneaky with what they're 1:45:41.640 --> 1:45:44.560 doing because they may even deny that they are a 1:45:44.600 --> 1:45:49.000 crisis pregnancy center, and even further, if you go onto 1:45:49.040 --> 1:45:52.360 their website, they might not even have any language that 1:45:52.840 --> 1:45:56.919 they're religious based or that they are um, not providing 1:45:57.000 --> 1:46:00.280 comprehensive services. So there are a lot of diff written 1:46:00.280 --> 1:46:06.800 tactics that are you know, within the manipulate manipulative strategies 1:46:06.840 --> 1:46:10.000 that they use. Yeah. One of the things I've heard 1:46:10.000 --> 1:46:16.360 a lot about is like basically like not not literally 1:46:16.439 --> 1:46:20.920 physically forcing but like terrorizing people into signing like fake 1:46:21.040 --> 1:46:25.120 legal documents saying they won't get an abortion, which like 1:46:25.800 --> 1:46:28.760 really like every description I've heard about that, it is 1:46:28.840 --> 1:46:34.880 just like this is just terrorism. That's absolutely um. Yeah, 1:46:34.960 --> 1:46:37.560 And I find that to be really interesting. I have 1:46:37.720 --> 1:46:41.559 never heard of that happening. But just because I haven't 1:46:41.600 --> 1:46:44.599 specifically heard about, does it not mean it's not happening. Um. 1:46:44.720 --> 1:46:48.000 And I think that you know, there, they're not all 1:46:48.160 --> 1:46:51.880 made the same, um, they all functioned differently. And I 1:46:52.000 --> 1:46:55.080 think that's also what is really confusing about them because 1:46:55.160 --> 1:46:58.559 they're not consistently all doing the same thing. There are 1:46:58.920 --> 1:47:02.400 still other facility is that they might do STI testing, 1:47:02.479 --> 1:47:05.439 they might do HIV testing, and so to hear that 1:47:05.880 --> 1:47:09.040 is not shocking to me. Um. And the manipulative tactics 1:47:09.160 --> 1:47:12.080 that they are using for people and yeah, I mean 1:47:12.320 --> 1:47:15.559 hip book goes out the door. You know, any legal 1:47:15.640 --> 1:47:18.920 backing goes out the door with these facilities because they 1:47:18.960 --> 1:47:22.720 are not based on providing patient led services in the 1:47:22.760 --> 1:47:27.479 first place. Maybe this is an ignorant, ignorant train of thought, 1:47:27.600 --> 1:47:30.360 but if they're providing all of these like free ish 1:47:30.560 --> 1:47:33.120 services or like whatever to these people that are desperate, 1:47:33.240 --> 1:47:35.559 and um, it sounds like a lot of them are 1:47:35.600 --> 1:47:38.160 like privately funded by these organizations, and the shadows like 1:47:38.280 --> 1:47:41.439 what how do they benefit? Like where like what is 1:47:41.560 --> 1:47:44.760 there other than like imposing religion and other people? But 1:47:44.880 --> 1:47:51.760 like like financially and like I'm confused, where how they're 1:47:51.800 --> 1:47:57.080 still able to function? Yes, they function very well and 1:47:57.200 --> 1:48:00.160 without a problem. Um. And as I mentioned, there's you know, 1:48:00.280 --> 1:48:06.120 five larger organizations that are funding a lot of these CPCs, 1:48:06.920 --> 1:48:11.439 but they are also um this is to be noted 1:48:11.880 --> 1:48:15.040 there on the CDC website, they are on the CDC 1:48:15.360 --> 1:48:22.280 directory as places that provide essential services. So I think 1:48:22.360 --> 1:48:28.040 that also goes to speak to the confusion around CPCs. 1:48:29.400 --> 1:48:31.880 And I'm just gonna go out in the limb and 1:48:32.000 --> 1:48:34.880 say I'm going to give the CDC benefit of the 1:48:34.960 --> 1:48:40.120 doubt although they do not deserve that, and say that, um, 1:48:40.479 --> 1:48:45.960 they themselves may not recognize what what these agencies are doing. 1:48:46.200 --> 1:48:50.479 And so I think that's where the awareness around the 1:48:50.600 --> 1:48:52.960 actual function of the ccs and how they even exist 1:48:53.040 --> 1:48:55.920 in the first place needs to be shut down. And 1:48:55.960 --> 1:48:58.720 awareness needs to be brought about these places. And and 1:48:58.840 --> 1:49:03.080 we know that third of them are funded by their states, 1:49:04.040 --> 1:49:07.920 so they are getting direct government money to be able 1:49:08.000 --> 1:49:11.400 to function and then on top of that also functioning 1:49:11.680 --> 1:49:16.760 with the backing of their larger organizations. Wow, are they 1:49:16.800 --> 1:49:20.240 getting federal funding too? Like I have some vague memories 1:49:20.320 --> 1:49:24.519 of like Bush administration programs that we're funding just right, 1:49:24.760 --> 1:49:27.320 I mean, if I'm not mistaken, Trump pushed a bunch 1:49:27.360 --> 1:49:32.360 of federal funds towards these facilities. Yes, yeah, I wonder, 1:49:33.120 --> 1:49:35.400 Sorry ahead, I don't go ahead. I was just I 1:49:35.479 --> 1:49:41.439 was wondering, like I wonder if there's a um like 1:49:41.560 --> 1:49:44.160 one or two things you need to qualify as like 1:49:44.439 --> 1:49:47.360 a what's what how did you put it on the website? 1:49:47.479 --> 1:49:51.000 CBC uh um, like they offer like services, like maybe 1:49:51.040 --> 1:49:53.160 it's like, oh, this place has an ultrasound. These are 1:49:53.280 --> 1:49:55.080 like this is why this is on you know what 1:49:55.120 --> 1:49:56.559 I mean? Like, I wonder if they just like pick 1:49:56.600 --> 1:49:59.400 and choose the bare minimum of things to like qualify 1:49:59.520 --> 1:50:03.240 to be UM considered among like people that offer like 1:50:03.360 --> 1:50:06.599 full fledged care. But I don't know what it's all 1:50:06.680 --> 1:50:10.560 scam Yeah, And I mean I think that also is 1:50:10.640 --> 1:50:13.760 just a really UM. I like that you bring that 1:50:13.840 --> 1:50:16.479 up because I think that would be a really ignorant 1:50:16.520 --> 1:50:20.800 perspective from the CDC to think that a place that 1:50:20.960 --> 1:50:26.360 gives a pregnancy test or an ultrasound right away is 1:50:27.720 --> 1:50:33.600 not necessarily your average healthcare setting. UM. When someone is 1:50:35.240 --> 1:50:39.160 going into an appointment, typically you know they're not getting 1:50:39.200 --> 1:50:44.000 an ultrasound right away. Typically you're average person who might 1:50:44.040 --> 1:50:46.640 think they're pregnant and is going into a medical facility, 1:50:47.360 --> 1:50:50.639 is going to do a pregnancy test. Sure, but they're 1:50:50.640 --> 1:50:53.360 not just gonna immediately the first twenty minutes you're there 1:50:53.439 --> 1:50:56.479 do an ultrasound. UM. And especially knowing our health care 1:50:56.560 --> 1:51:00.000 system and the United states. You know that might require 1:51:00.280 --> 1:51:04.519 referrals and another facility to get that done, and you 1:51:04.600 --> 1:51:07.760 know that depends on what your insurances and what you 1:51:07.800 --> 1:51:11.400 can pay for and etcetera, etcetera. But I think it's 1:51:11.439 --> 1:51:14.840 a really big red flag to just have a facility 1:51:15.520 --> 1:51:20.479 that has pregnancy tests and ultrasounds. That to me is, 1:51:20.720 --> 1:51:22.599 you know, if I see on a website that those 1:51:22.640 --> 1:51:26.799 are the only two services that healthcare clinic is claiming 1:51:26.880 --> 1:51:30.559 to provide, I'm running away and I'm not going there 1:51:30.640 --> 1:51:34.439 because that's very odd. Well, it's it's very manipulative, because 1:51:34.479 --> 1:51:36.080 it's it's one of those things. One of the ways 1:51:36.120 --> 1:51:39.360 in which you can tell is something healthcare related shady 1:51:39.400 --> 1:51:43.080 as fuck is does it take advantage of the fact 1:51:43.200 --> 1:51:47.920 that very basic things that you need are extremely expensive um, 1:51:48.320 --> 1:51:51.000 and like ultrasounds, pregnancy tests, this can all be like 1:51:51.200 --> 1:51:54.960 STD tests, you know, can all be really really pricey um. 1:51:55.600 --> 1:51:58.840 And it's just so like it's fucked up that this 1:51:58.960 --> 1:52:02.160 is kind of how they're funning religious dollars towards taking 1:52:02.160 --> 1:52:04.640 advantage of the fact that a lot of people, like 1:52:04.840 --> 1:52:07.600 legitimately some people who use these facilities. I don't know 1:52:07.720 --> 1:52:11.240 what else to tell them, because it's like, well, we 1:52:11.360 --> 1:52:13.560 don't provide people with a lot of options in this 1:52:13.720 --> 1:52:18.160 country everywhere, you know, for for some of these services. Yeah, totally. 1:52:18.920 --> 1:52:22.680 And I do want to go into some of the 1:52:22.800 --> 1:52:26.280 people doing the work and I want to really highlight 1:52:26.640 --> 1:52:30.600 what they're doing. UM. So I want to give the 1:52:30.840 --> 1:52:35.160 utmost credit to two people, UM who I do not 1:52:35.320 --> 1:52:39.879 know personally but would definitely love to UM Dr Andreas 1:52:39.960 --> 1:52:43.880 Warton Rubber and Dr Danielle Lambert. They're both associate professors 1:52:44.880 --> 1:52:47.960 at the School of Public Health at University of Georgia, 1:52:48.080 --> 1:52:50.679 and they're both co founders of the CPC Maps, which 1:52:50.800 --> 1:52:54.680 originated in two thousand and eighteen. So yes, there's a 1:52:54.760 --> 1:52:58.040 brilliant map where you can search these CPCs that are 1:52:58.080 --> 1:53:00.280 close to you. UM. And in my eye is this 1:53:00.760 --> 1:53:03.280 map is truly a piece of gold because I myself 1:53:03.360 --> 1:53:06.280 have found ones that are in my area UM and 1:53:06.880 --> 1:53:10.400 was very beneficial when I was working with clients myself 1:53:10.520 --> 1:53:13.640 directly and would refer people to different services. So this 1:53:13.760 --> 1:53:16.800 is a really great tool for healthcare professionals and social 1:53:16.880 --> 1:53:20.120 service workers, et cetera to refer to UM. And I 1:53:20.200 --> 1:53:23.160 can't even explain how grateful I am to know that 1:53:23.280 --> 1:53:26.839 there's ongoing research about the distraught impact of these clinics 1:53:27.400 --> 1:53:30.360 and the distraught impact they have on our health care 1:53:30.439 --> 1:53:33.760 system and the ability to find an abortion provider. UM. 1:53:33.880 --> 1:53:37.000 So again I hope that every service provider can find 1:53:37.040 --> 1:53:41.559 these this map, UM and use this map and really 1:53:41.640 --> 1:53:45.479 spread awareness around this. So. UM. What I want to 1:53:45.640 --> 1:53:50.240 highlight and what these two doctors have found is that 1:53:50.840 --> 1:53:55.920 just to give some more context, every single state has 1:53:56.800 --> 1:54:03.040 multiple SPCs, multiple not just one to multiple there are 1:54:04.840 --> 1:54:10.800 CPCs and throughout the United States, and that is obviously 1:54:10.960 --> 1:54:13.400 a much larger number than the health departments in the 1:54:13.479 --> 1:54:16.960 United States. And you know, as I mentioned, we know 1:54:17.080 --> 1:54:22.719 the CBC directory utilizes CPCs on their website and again 1:54:23.000 --> 1:54:28.519 thirteen states are funded or are funding CPCs UM. So 1:54:28.640 --> 1:54:32.760 their advertisements are going far and wide. Um. And to 1:54:32.920 --> 1:54:35.839 even go further, in the state of California, the California 1:54:35.880 --> 1:54:39.720 Women's Law Center says that there are twenty more CPCs 1:54:40.400 --> 1:54:46.480 then there are abortion clinics. So I think in this time, yeah, yeah, 1:54:47.000 --> 1:54:49.280 we should be scared. That is really that's a really 1:54:49.360 --> 1:54:56.480 concerning statistic, and especially looking at how we are going 1:54:56.600 --> 1:55:00.240 to be and already are a haven state, we are 1:55:00.280 --> 1:55:01.920 going to be a haven state for all the states 1:55:01.960 --> 1:55:05.040 around US and for people throughout the United States. So 1:55:05.320 --> 1:55:08.920 what is that saying when we are a haven state, 1:55:09.440 --> 1:55:12.879 yet we are still competing with our local anti abortion 1:55:12.920 --> 1:55:15.960 strategies ourselves, we are still putting up a fight as 1:55:16.000 --> 1:55:19.560 a haven state, and I think that is so concerning. UM. 1:55:19.800 --> 1:55:23.880 And even further, just to give some more statistics, we 1:55:24.040 --> 1:55:30.400 know that of the clinics that CPCs that did not 1:55:30.560 --> 1:55:34.120 offer SCI testing also will not refer out. We know 1:55:34.280 --> 1:55:40.240 that only eight offer HIV testing and that did not 1:55:40.440 --> 1:55:44.200 offer HIV testing also did not refer out. So just 1:55:44.320 --> 1:55:47.360 to summarize those numbers for you, what that data is 1:55:47.440 --> 1:55:50.400 telling me is that these clinics are not accounting for 1:55:50.480 --> 1:55:53.400 the health of the pregnant person, nor are the accounting 1:55:53.440 --> 1:55:55.520 for the health of the fetus if that pregnancy goes 1:55:55.560 --> 1:55:59.360 full term. And yeah, I mean I have even you know, 1:56:00.080 --> 1:56:03.360 more stats as you know your reproductive health nerd um 1:56:03.520 --> 1:56:05.920 of one of my favorite research institutes called the gut 1:56:06.000 --> 1:56:09.720 Mocker Institute, and they are phenomenal and have really great 1:56:10.320 --> 1:56:12.720 data UM. And if you haven't checked out their website, 1:56:12.800 --> 1:56:17.040 you definitely should. UM. But since we're on the bandwagon 1:56:17.120 --> 1:56:21.320 of talking about religious based affiliations, we know that seventeen 1:56:21.440 --> 1:56:30.360 percent of abortion patients are oh sorry, um okay um. 1:56:30.640 --> 1:56:36.240 Seventeen percent of abortion patients identified themselves as mainline Protestant, 1:56:38.000 --> 1:56:42.400 as evangelical Protestant, and percent is Catholic. Thirty eight percent 1:56:42.600 --> 1:56:45.839 have no religious affiliation, and the remaining eight percent reported 1:56:45.880 --> 1:56:51.560 a different religious affiliation. So let's summarize that religiously affiliated 1:56:51.600 --> 1:56:54.240 people are still seeking abortions too. Would you look at 1:56:54.320 --> 1:56:59.280 that ignorance is so bliss. We know that abortions are 1:56:59.280 --> 1:57:03.520 affecting people who are living in poverty and who are 1:57:03.560 --> 1:57:07.120 low income. So we know se of people that are 1:57:07.160 --> 1:57:10.760 seeking abortions are either living in poverty or our low 1:57:10.840 --> 1:57:15.560 income UM. And fortunately, you know, throughout the past, we 1:57:15.640 --> 1:57:19.680 know that Medicaid has been a really big funder of 1:57:19.960 --> 1:57:23.080 abortion care UM, and especially we can say that in 1:57:23.200 --> 1:57:31.839 California too, UM, that about of abortion patients are using Medicaid, 1:57:32.080 --> 1:57:35.440 and that's throughout fifteen different states. So I imagine in 1:57:35.560 --> 1:57:38.800 this time, right now too, that number is probably going 1:57:38.880 --> 1:57:42.440 to decrease. UM. So again, talking about a haven state 1:57:42.480 --> 1:57:46.000 that has these resources, we are probably going to be 1:57:47.600 --> 1:57:51.880 mixing up how that looks UM. And knowing that fifty 1:57:51.920 --> 1:57:54.560 three percent of abortion patients pay out of pocket for 1:57:54.640 --> 1:58:01.120 their procedures is already a very concerning statistics. And so 1:58:01.640 --> 1:58:05.720 we are seeing how in our time right now, we 1:58:05.960 --> 1:58:09.720 have to be looking at different resources for people. We 1:58:09.920 --> 1:58:12.400 have to put on our activist hats, we have to 1:58:12.440 --> 1:58:15.240 be supporting our community, and we have to be supporting 1:58:15.280 --> 1:58:18.400 abortion funds because already fifty three percent of abortions are 1:58:18.400 --> 1:58:23.880 paid out of pocket. Um. And just to to summarize one, 1:58:23.920 --> 1:58:28.280 more point eight percent of people who are using abortion 1:58:28.360 --> 1:58:31.040 services are going to be using those within the first 1:58:31.080 --> 1:58:35.440 twelve weeks. So um, we are needing to see a 1:58:35.480 --> 1:58:42.000 lot of activism around abortion pill distribution and abortion pill 1:58:43.120 --> 1:58:47.800 education and what that looks like. No, the to like 1:58:47.960 --> 1:58:50.640 piggyback off of what Robert was mentioning earlier about how 1:58:50.840 --> 1:58:53.080 it just feels like they're taking advantage of the fact that, 1:58:53.160 --> 1:58:55.520 like things cost so much money. And I feel like, 1:58:55.600 --> 1:58:58.960 if you this work is so important because I don't 1:58:59.000 --> 1:59:01.840 think a lot of people know what they're getting into. 1:59:01.960 --> 1:59:04.880 If they're like, because we don't have a great education 1:59:04.960 --> 1:59:07.360 system in general, let alone about like reproductive health or 1:59:07.440 --> 1:59:09.480 like what happens when you get pregnant. So if you're 1:59:09.520 --> 1:59:12.560 a young person or mean any age and you are 1:59:12.640 --> 1:59:15.040 desperate or you're feeling shame, you don't have support from 1:59:15.040 --> 1:59:18.280 your community or something, and you see an institution that's 1:59:18.320 --> 1:59:21.440 like free ultrasound or like whatever, it's like they're praying 1:59:21.480 --> 1:59:25.600 on this desperation. And I think one of the only 1:59:25.680 --> 1:59:27.440 things you can do to combat that is like try 1:59:27.480 --> 1:59:31.480 to educate people as much as possible that like, I 1:59:31.520 --> 1:59:35.680 don't know, people are as um they don't have the 1:59:35.760 --> 1:59:38.200 good will and good faith that they present to be 1:59:38.400 --> 1:59:41.240 to have and I guess it just like ultimately you 1:59:41.280 --> 1:59:43.840 have to be distrusting of people. And maybe that's sad, 1:59:43.960 --> 1:59:48.960 but it's the truth. Yeah, definitely, And I will say 1:59:49.000 --> 1:59:51.720 I feel like I saw that as a service provider. 1:59:52.240 --> 1:59:55.959 Um So, as I mentioned, I worked in homeless services, 1:59:56.080 --> 1:59:59.080 specifically with youth homeless services, and you see that so much. 1:59:59.160 --> 2:00:04.120 You see how there is you know, medical oppression for 2:00:04.240 --> 2:00:09.000 people of color. There is medical manipulation and violence for 2:00:09.920 --> 2:00:14.760 so many people in vulnerable situations. And as someone that 2:00:14.840 --> 2:00:22.160 has accompanied many people to abortions and births, I have 2:00:22.600 --> 2:00:27.560 observed that myself and I have seen how so more 2:00:27.720 --> 2:00:30.520 people than not are going to experience some type of 2:00:30.640 --> 2:00:34.160 medical manipulation, and especially if you are living in poverty, 2:00:34.320 --> 2:00:36.800 especially if you're a person of color, especially if you're 2:00:36.880 --> 2:00:41.880 lgbt q i A. This this issue does not just stop, 2:00:41.960 --> 2:00:45.320 you know, with CPCs. If we take out all the CPCs, 2:00:45.360 --> 2:00:48.080 we also have to address so much of the institutional 2:00:48.440 --> 2:00:52.880 institutionalized racism and all the things that exist around reproductive 2:00:52.920 --> 2:00:57.640 health UM, you know, starting at how to get contraceptives too, 2:00:58.440 --> 2:01:00.480 when can you have children and how can you be 2:01:00.560 --> 2:01:04.560 a parent, and that never ends throughout the cycle, you know, 2:01:04.640 --> 2:01:08.240 and that parents even after they have babies, even if 2:01:08.280 --> 2:01:11.080 they are a person of color, even if they are 2:01:11.240 --> 2:01:13.080 l g B t q A, you know, they are 2:01:13.160 --> 2:01:16.400 still told how, when, where they're going to parent UM. 2:01:16.480 --> 2:01:19.480 And there's so much control over that rhetoric for people. 2:01:20.080 --> 2:01:22.600 So you know, I mean that even goes back to 2:01:22.800 --> 2:01:29.000 me thinking about the sterilization trials that happened against USC 2:01:29.320 --> 2:01:32.880 and the seventies and how women were forcibly sterilized, and 2:01:34.080 --> 2:01:36.440 you know that has nothing to do with CPCs. But 2:01:36.560 --> 2:01:40.080 instead we're seeing that institutions are finding this control and 2:01:40.160 --> 2:01:44.120 having these agendas, and it is not serving our society. 2:01:44.360 --> 2:01:47.760 It is not serving our health and instead it is 2:01:47.960 --> 2:01:52.600 creating more trauma in our communities and it's it's crisis. 2:01:52.680 --> 2:01:57.600 Pregnancy centers are just one of many layers of medical 2:01:57.640 --> 2:02:01.120 oppression that we are witnessing in today's world. As a 2:02:01.200 --> 2:02:07.839 person who was working in homeless services, I was program 2:02:07.960 --> 2:02:10.560 planning for a lot of the resources that we were 2:02:10.600 --> 2:02:14.920 able to provide access to for my clients. So all 2:02:14.960 --> 2:02:17.240 of my clients at that time when I was running 2:02:17.240 --> 2:02:20.600 the Pregnant Parenting program at a nonprofit, they were either 2:02:20.760 --> 2:02:26.480 pregnant and or parenting while also experiencing their housing insecurities UM, 2:02:27.480 --> 2:02:31.840 so I strived to find what the proper resources were 2:02:31.920 --> 2:02:35.880 for them to support them in every trauma informed way 2:02:35.960 --> 2:02:39.520 I possibly could, and that were youth friendly. So there 2:02:39.680 --> 2:02:42.960 was a local agency that was very very close to 2:02:43.080 --> 2:02:47.560 where I worked UM and their services always kind of 2:02:47.640 --> 2:02:51.040 felt like limited to me. So I met with them 2:02:51.160 --> 2:02:54.200 specifically to enquire because they were always trying to find 2:02:54.320 --> 2:02:56.920 some type of partnership with us and would knock on 2:02:56.960 --> 2:02:59.680 our door or call me. So I finally was able 2:02:59.720 --> 2:03:04.120 to get of them some of my time UM and 2:03:06.000 --> 2:03:08.960 so their services always felt limited and non comprehensive, and 2:03:09.040 --> 2:03:12.800 I think that is the biggest kind of like takeaway UM. 2:03:12.960 --> 2:03:17.200 They always gave me really weird reasoning why they didn't 2:03:17.240 --> 2:03:21.440 provide birth control or STI testing, and based on their answer, 2:03:21.560 --> 2:03:24.080 as I mentioned, I just did not allow the partnership 2:03:24.200 --> 2:03:27.120 to thrive. So when I did more research, I actually 2:03:27.200 --> 2:03:31.200 confirmed from another service provider that there from another agency 2:03:31.480 --> 2:03:35.280 that they were indeed a CPC before I could spread 2:03:35.320 --> 2:03:38.960 the word. They also already had several partnerships with other 2:03:39.080 --> 2:03:42.840 homeless service providers, so they wiggled their way in UM. 2:03:43.040 --> 2:03:46.000 And these other homeless service providers were also working with 2:03:46.160 --> 2:03:49.800 young vulnerable clients. So one day I was actually invited 2:03:49.840 --> 2:03:54.360 by another agency to come to this presentation where I 2:03:54.480 --> 2:03:59.720 didn't realize happened to be the CPC. UM. The CPC 2:03:59.880 --> 2:04:03.200 was presenting at this organization and it was one of 2:04:03.240 --> 2:04:08.320 their outreach workers explaining what their services were. So I 2:04:08.480 --> 2:04:12.240 took it upon myself to make sure that I sat 2:04:12.320 --> 2:04:16.760 in that meeting and I asked questions in the room 2:04:16.920 --> 2:04:19.560 with the other service providers. I think they're about thirty 2:04:19.600 --> 2:04:23.560 other service providers that were present, and I asked out loud, 2:04:23.840 --> 2:04:27.240 why doesn't your clinic provide birth control? And the woman 2:04:27.640 --> 2:04:30.840 from the CPC who was the outreach worker said, we 2:04:31.040 --> 2:04:34.760 can't give paps mirrors, so we're unable to provide birth control. 2:04:36.240 --> 2:04:39.440 If you know anything side note if you know, yeah, 2:04:39.520 --> 2:04:45.040 I already see the questioning, which I'm glad I received 2:04:45.120 --> 2:04:50.320 that reaction, because that is the exact reaction audience, those 2:04:50.360 --> 2:04:56.040 of us with yours, all of our heads tilted, squinting. 2:04:57.760 --> 2:05:06.240 U exactly explain how that math doesn't work? Yeah, exactly. 2:05:06.640 --> 2:05:08.920 Side note for all the listeners, if you know anything 2:05:08.920 --> 2:05:10.720 about health care, you know that a PAPS is not 2:05:10.840 --> 2:05:14.200 associated with being able to be prescribed birth control. So 2:05:14.400 --> 2:05:19.440 as someone that has background in healthcare, has a master's 2:05:19.480 --> 2:05:24.320 in public health, worked as a due lah. I continue 2:05:24.360 --> 2:05:27.000 to push back during the presentation, and it was very 2:05:27.120 --> 2:05:29.440 very clear that I was onto something. Um. So this 2:05:29.560 --> 2:05:32.240 woman again, she would always try to come around, give 2:05:32.280 --> 2:05:35.840 me pamphlets, try to have us partner and say she 2:05:35.880 --> 2:05:38.360 really want to work with us in our youth. Um. 2:05:38.760 --> 2:05:41.040 She stopped after that presentation. I can tell you that. 2:05:41.640 --> 2:05:43.640 But anyway, so I keep going. I reach out to 2:05:43.760 --> 2:05:46.879 a the person who organized that presentation for the CPC 2:05:47.040 --> 2:05:49.880 outreach person to attend and speak at. So I was like, 2:05:49.960 --> 2:05:51.200 I need to get to the bottom of this, and 2:05:51.280 --> 2:05:54.600 I need to spread this word UM and tell people, Hey, 2:05:54.680 --> 2:05:57.760 you're getting people from CPCs to come and speak to 2:05:57.840 --> 2:06:04.280 you to advertise your services is UM. So I see 2:06:04.280 --> 2:06:07.480 a seed a lot of the other service providers, and 2:06:07.680 --> 2:06:10.440 I expressed my genuine concerns the lack of evidence based 2:06:10.480 --> 2:06:14.560 comprehensive care they provided. But unfortunately, the person who I 2:06:14.680 --> 2:06:17.680 emailed said, clients need to make sure those decisions are 2:06:17.760 --> 2:06:21.040 their own, so they can decide if they want to 2:06:21.120 --> 2:06:23.000 go or if they don't want to go. We can't 2:06:23.040 --> 2:06:24.560 force them to say yes or no to go to 2:06:24.600 --> 2:06:28.440 a health care facility. So I responded by asking, but 2:06:28.520 --> 2:06:30.080 what if you thought you were seeing a doctor for 2:06:30.160 --> 2:06:31.960 your health care needs and then it turns out the 2:06:32.000 --> 2:06:35.440 health care provider is providing misinformation and might not even 2:06:35.480 --> 2:06:38.360 be a healthcare provider. UM. I never got a response 2:06:38.440 --> 2:06:40.600 from them, but I still continue to make sure that 2:06:40.600 --> 2:06:42.480 I was reaching out to everyone at that meeting and 2:06:42.640 --> 2:06:45.640 just raising awareness behind it UM. And then I wanted 2:06:45.640 --> 2:06:48.080 to take it to UM. I wanted to take it 2:06:48.160 --> 2:06:51.600 a notch up, so I called both of this. Both 2:06:51.640 --> 2:06:54.760 of the locations of the CPC. One is located in Westwood, 2:06:54.840 --> 2:06:57.240 side note next to u c l A. The other 2:06:57.320 --> 2:07:00.440 one was in South l A side note, community of color. 2:07:01.200 --> 2:07:03.920 Both of my calls led me to the person on 2:07:04.000 --> 2:07:05.680 the phone telling me that they don't know where to 2:07:05.760 --> 2:07:07.720 send me for an abortion and that they didn't know 2:07:07.800 --> 2:07:11.360 what what planned parenthood was, what they did, or where 2:07:11.440 --> 2:07:15.600 they relocated when I specifically asked. So they were obviously 2:07:15.720 --> 2:07:18.760 circumventing the ability to even talk about abortions and what 2:07:18.960 --> 2:07:22.960 it was um and that was all the concern that 2:07:23.040 --> 2:07:26.920 I genuinely needed. So in my present day, I'm still 2:07:27.120 --> 2:07:31.800 concerned with these clinics, this specific clinic that is local 2:07:31.920 --> 2:07:35.120 to me. I recently found out that in my present 2:07:35.280 --> 2:07:39.280 day work, there are currently three treatment centers that are 2:07:39.440 --> 2:07:43.600 using this crisis pregnancy center as a resource. So hopefully 2:07:43.720 --> 2:07:46.280 that means more to come because I will be working 2:07:46.360 --> 2:07:49.160 on this and in this scenario, what I am doing 2:07:49.240 --> 2:07:51.160 as an activist and as a person who cares for 2:07:51.240 --> 2:07:54.320 my community is I will be educating these treatment centers 2:07:54.560 --> 2:07:57.520 about what crisis pregnancy centers are and how they can 2:07:57.560 --> 2:08:01.760 avoid them and what comprehensive services actually look like. Have 2:08:01.880 --> 2:08:07.160 there been more sort of widespread like organizations who are 2:08:07.200 --> 2:08:12.280 working too like a let people know what they are 2:08:12.440 --> 2:08:14.640 and then be also trying to get them like not 2:08:14.880 --> 2:08:18.520 to be funded. Absolutely, there are and we need to 2:08:18.600 --> 2:08:23.720 shout them out. UM. There are. There is an abortion 2:08:23.880 --> 2:08:28.680 fund UM in California called Access. They are wonderful UM. 2:08:29.040 --> 2:08:35.600 They provide abortion advocacy and awareness and education and they 2:08:35.720 --> 2:08:41.800 also provide direct services UM and fund different They have 2:08:41.840 --> 2:08:45.120 fund abortions in different capacities, so they might be funding 2:08:45.200 --> 2:08:48.600 the abortion services, the lodging, the transportation, and even a doula. 2:08:49.520 --> 2:08:53.400 And they partner with a lot of other agencies that 2:08:53.520 --> 2:08:57.880 are doing the work. The agency is called Reproductive Transparency 2:08:58.000 --> 2:09:02.560 Now and they are a ship cargo based nonprofit. They 2:09:02.760 --> 2:09:10.080 provide a lot of information, data, awareness research UM to 2:09:10.280 --> 2:09:14.120 raise awareness around what CPCs are and why we should 2:09:14.160 --> 2:09:17.160 be avoiding them. And I think I can say that 2:09:17.280 --> 2:09:19.520 I have the same goal as them in my personal life, 2:09:19.600 --> 2:09:22.080 but to ensure that they do not exist and are 2:09:22.120 --> 2:09:25.160 all shut down. UM. So they are wonderful. I would 2:09:25.240 --> 2:09:30.880 highly suggest looking into Reproductive Transparency Now and also Active 2:09:31.560 --> 2:09:36.280 Sorry Access Reproductive Justice UM who are doing a lot 2:09:36.360 --> 2:09:40.000 of really great work. And then I also do want 2:09:40.040 --> 2:09:46.600 to squeeze in other resources for people as well. Yeah, UM. 2:09:47.680 --> 2:09:50.200 And you know, as I mentioned first and foremost, I 2:09:50.240 --> 2:09:51.960 think the number one thing we need to know is 2:09:52.040 --> 2:09:56.400 that crisis pregnancy center should not exist in any capacity. UM. 2:09:56.720 --> 2:10:00.240 But if you are a person who's providing resource, is 2:10:00.680 --> 2:10:04.959 who is working with clients, who works in healthcare treatment centers, 2:10:05.360 --> 2:10:12.400 wouldever it be, please utilize Crisis Pregnancy Center map dot com. Again, 2:10:12.520 --> 2:10:16.840 this is the the website that was created by two 2:10:16.880 --> 2:10:20.880 associate professors at University of Georgia, and I want to 2:10:20.960 --> 2:10:25.240 make sure that this spreads far and wide, UM, because 2:10:25.320 --> 2:10:28.840 it will be the matter of providing referrals and circumventing 2:10:28.920 --> 2:10:32.080 CPCs UM. And I want to acknowledge that a lot 2:10:32.160 --> 2:10:35.920 of my data from this, from the information that I've 2:10:35.920 --> 2:10:40.200 been speaking on, is from the Crisis Pregnancy Center Map 2:10:40.280 --> 2:10:47.720 dot com UM, and from Reproductive Transparency as well. UM. 2:10:47.880 --> 2:10:52.200 So first and foremost that map is a necessity. UM. 2:10:52.600 --> 2:10:56.360 Another resource that I would like to share to be 2:10:56.440 --> 2:11:01.800 able to find your state's abortion fund is abortion Funds 2:11:02.080 --> 2:11:05.760 dot org and you can search state by state, so 2:11:06.160 --> 2:11:10.040 you know, I'm in California, so that's going to be access. Again, 2:11:10.320 --> 2:11:12.600 an organization that is an abortion fund, but they do 2:11:12.760 --> 2:11:18.360 more than than fund abortions. UM. I also really encourage 2:11:18.480 --> 2:11:24.440 people to find their local evidence based du lahs midwives 2:11:24.880 --> 2:11:27.760 women's health practitioners near them. And I know that there's 2:11:28.200 --> 2:11:30.040 a lot of fear existing right now due to the 2:11:30.080 --> 2:11:33.880 inappropriate politicians that are making disgusting decisions, but know that 2:11:34.040 --> 2:11:36.920 abortion pills can be access and there are people that 2:11:37.040 --> 2:11:41.440 can help guide you through. UM. So I would say 2:11:42.840 --> 2:11:46.320 making sure that we are accessing the resources on a 2:11:46.400 --> 2:11:50.680 website called plan c pill dot com. It's a great 2:11:50.760 --> 2:11:54.240 resource where you can find where to purchase abortion pills 2:11:54.840 --> 2:11:58.440 and where to seek medical and legal support as well. 2:11:59.320 --> 2:12:01.120 So if you have a question about how to take 2:12:01.240 --> 2:12:05.360 medical abortion pills, or you need to understand the legality 2:12:05.480 --> 2:12:08.480 of your state and the area near you, you can 2:12:09.880 --> 2:12:13.920 you can look on this website UM as a resource. UM. 2:12:14.120 --> 2:12:17.840 I just also want to emphasize like what community care 2:12:18.000 --> 2:12:20.960 looks like right now. UM. If you're a person who 2:12:21.000 --> 2:12:23.800 can get pregnant, this is truly a time to seek 2:12:23.880 --> 2:12:26.720 preventative care. And I know that that's a loaded can 2:12:26.840 --> 2:12:28.760 of worms for a lot of people. So I just 2:12:28.920 --> 2:12:31.920 I really want to plug this in. If you would 2:12:32.280 --> 2:12:34.640 like to learn about pregnancy prevention, you can take a 2:12:34.680 --> 2:12:37.560 look at bedsider dot org to assess your needs. I 2:12:37.600 --> 2:12:40.640 would highly recommend pairing that with talking to a provider 2:12:40.680 --> 2:12:43.600 who understands your lifestyle and can support you with finding 2:12:43.680 --> 2:12:46.400 one that works best for you, because every single contraceptive 2:12:46.480 --> 2:12:48.680 is going to look a little different. If you're a 2:12:48.720 --> 2:12:51.280 person who does not like birth control, I want you 2:12:51.360 --> 2:12:56.200 to know to please still seek preventative methods UM, whether 2:12:56.320 --> 2:12:59.080 that's a barrier method or whether that's more so of 2:12:59.160 --> 2:13:02.800 a holistic good like fertility awareness method. I encourage you 2:13:02.880 --> 2:13:05.000 to still speak to someone you can trust to ensure 2:13:05.040 --> 2:13:08.280 you're using that method correctly. And again there are duelas 2:13:08.320 --> 2:13:10.480 and midwives that can help guide you in the right 2:13:10.520 --> 2:13:15.600 direction for holistic practices UM. And to continue on to 2:13:15.720 --> 2:13:22.440 my community UH, my community kind of recognition. I hope 2:13:22.480 --> 2:13:25.280 that this is also time where if it's feasible for 2:13:25.440 --> 2:13:30.400 you too, if you can't yourself, find UM friends and 2:13:30.640 --> 2:13:34.800 family that you trust and people around you UM to 2:13:35.000 --> 2:13:37.200 either receive yourself or to get it from other people. 2:13:38.000 --> 2:13:40.920 Have pregnancy tests around you, and make sure that if 2:13:40.960 --> 2:13:43.480 you feel like you might be pregnant UM, whether you 2:13:43.560 --> 2:13:46.200 are using an actual method or if you're not using 2:13:46.240 --> 2:13:49.480 a method, currently, make sure you very least have pregnancy 2:13:49.560 --> 2:13:52.920 tests around you, UM, so that you know you can 2:13:53.040 --> 2:13:57.200 detect early on if you are pregnant. UM. Normalize buying 2:13:57.200 --> 2:14:00.840 your friends pregnancy tests for their birthdays. I have. We 2:14:00.960 --> 2:14:04.160 just have to normalize that as a community, and normalize 2:14:04.160 --> 2:14:07.200 buying abortion pills in case someone you know might need 2:14:07.320 --> 2:14:09.680 them in the future, or it might be someone that 2:14:09.760 --> 2:14:11.960 you don't know who could use them. UM. And to 2:14:12.040 --> 2:14:16.560 have that accessible if that is feasible for you financially. Um. 2:14:17.160 --> 2:14:20.080 And then yeah, I think just to summarize, like, this 2:14:20.280 --> 2:14:23.200 is truly a time for community support and when the 2:14:23.280 --> 2:14:26.080 government doesn't support us, we we need to figure out 2:14:26.400 --> 2:14:34.200 unfortunately how and um, if you got the ability, go 2:14:34.360 --> 2:14:39.000 get uh, go get go get snipped. Uh. You know 2:14:39.200 --> 2:14:45.600 there's there's options out there. UM options. Yeah. I provide vasectomies. 2:14:45.640 --> 2:14:47.320 By the way, if you can just find me in 2:14:47.400 --> 2:14:52.400 my house. UM, I'm not good at it yet, but people, 2:14:52.720 --> 2:14:54.520 I'm gonna not I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna 2:14:54.560 --> 2:14:58.400 figure it out. That room is for well. I got 2:14:58.480 --> 2:15:00.560 one of those. I got one of those sharp penning wheels, 2:15:00.560 --> 2:15:03.800 and my butter knives are pretty fucking they got a 2:15:03.840 --> 2:15:07.640 good edge. They got edge these days. It's genuinely incredibly disappointment. 2:15:07.720 --> 2:15:10.400 Disappointed you're not using the machete for this. This is 2:15:10.480 --> 2:15:14.120 this feels like a portrayal. Well, there's other reproductive healthcare 2:15:14.160 --> 2:15:17.720 I used the machete for, but that that that does 2:15:17.800 --> 2:15:21.520 have to do with crisis pregnancy centers action. Well, I'll 2:15:21.560 --> 2:15:23.560 have a bunch of referrals for you then, I know, 2:15:23.720 --> 2:15:28.120 or to send them. That that kind of leans into 2:15:28.160 --> 2:15:35.080 another topic I'm covering today. Unfortunately. Um well, thank you 2:15:35.160 --> 2:15:37.120 so much for coming on and for talking to us. 2:15:37.200 --> 2:15:41.800 This has been very enlightening. Um I wish uh it 2:15:42.000 --> 2:15:44.400 wasn't such a bleak subject. But people need to know 2:15:45.160 --> 2:15:47.240 the fox going on. People needed to know this a 2:15:47.320 --> 2:15:51.320 lot earlier. But you know, I mean broadly speaking, the 2:15:51.400 --> 2:15:53.400 thing I keep coming back to in this whole fight 2:15:53.680 --> 2:15:57.960 is the frustration of like the rest of us, like 2:15:58.960 --> 2:16:01.120 life is hard enough. There's so much going on. People 2:16:01.160 --> 2:16:03.320 are like busy trying to trying to get by, trying 2:16:03.360 --> 2:16:05.200 to do their lives, trying to like find pieces of 2:16:05.280 --> 2:16:08.680 happiness in the world. And there's this fucking group of 2:16:10.040 --> 2:16:12.400 the worst people in the country that have just made 2:16:12.480 --> 2:16:18.000 this made fucking access to reproductive healthcare up for everyone 2:16:18.440 --> 2:16:20.920 the focus of their entire life for thirty years, and 2:16:22.040 --> 2:16:26.160 unfortunately now we have to like do that make the 2:16:26.240 --> 2:16:29.400 opposite the focus of our lives because we kind of 2:16:29.520 --> 2:16:32.640 just not all of us obviously, like you've been in 2:16:32.680 --> 2:16:34.200 this fight for a while, but most of us kind 2:16:34.240 --> 2:16:37.200 of we're not paying as much attention as needed to 2:16:37.240 --> 2:16:40.040 be paid. Um, like most people in the I'm not 2:16:40.120 --> 2:16:42.800 trying to throw blame on folks, but like, clearly the 2:16:42.920 --> 2:16:46.640 majority of people in the country who support access to 2:16:46.680 --> 2:16:50.080 reproductive healthcare weren't paying enough attention, you know, Like that's 2:16:50.120 --> 2:16:52.800 the that's the only way to frame it totally. And 2:16:53.080 --> 2:16:56.240 it's almost as if we are picking up the mess 2:16:57.000 --> 2:17:00.920 that others are are creating. Um yeah. And you know, 2:17:01.240 --> 2:17:06.040 after experiencing COVID as a society, everyone's a public health 2:17:06.080 --> 2:17:11.960 professional now and a doctor. Um, so it's it's clearly, yeah, 2:17:12.280 --> 2:17:18.160 I'm sending referrals to you. Um yeah. And people have 2:17:18.400 --> 2:17:21.240 a lot of things to say. And with that being said, 2:17:21.360 --> 2:17:25.120 I'm really glad that that these are conversations being had. 2:17:25.560 --> 2:17:27.720 I'm glad that friends around me now who I have 2:17:27.840 --> 2:17:30.600 never known to talk about reproductive health are going there 2:17:30.640 --> 2:17:34.760 and talking about it and also opening the door up 2:17:34.879 --> 2:17:37.640 for you know, people like me to talk about evidence 2:17:37.680 --> 2:17:41.560 based practices and what the reality is and and who's 2:17:41.600 --> 2:17:46.720 doing the work, and um, everything that that focuses around 2:17:46.879 --> 2:17:52.279 reproductive health. So I I appreciate this conversation. I appreciate 2:17:52.520 --> 2:17:57.640 that there are podcasts discussing this information. It's necessary and 2:17:57.840 --> 2:18:01.119 these issues are not going anywhere, and you know, we're 2:18:01.120 --> 2:18:04.000 going a little backwards. So I really appreciate your time 2:18:04.080 --> 2:18:06.720 on this. Yeah, thank you for coming on the show. 2:18:07.480 --> 2:18:10.800 And um, all right, everybody, that's the fucking episode, So 2:18:11.600 --> 2:18:33.720 do something else. Oh all right, well go started. I 2:18:33.800 --> 2:18:36.080 like it. These intros are getting shorter free every time. 2:18:36.520 --> 2:18:38.520 You know, we've bended onto one syllable, so there's not 2:18:38.600 --> 2:18:41.600 much we can go fee there. You know what, an 2:18:41.680 --> 2:18:45.960 honest and honest man only needs one syllable, sometimes less, 2:18:46.040 --> 2:18:48.440 sometimes half a syllable. We'll eventually get this down to 2:18:48.560 --> 2:18:51.320 just grunts. That's really what I'm moving towards is an 2:18:51.520 --> 2:18:55.519 entirely shouldn't we be moving towards? Like telepathy? Yeah, telepathy? 2:18:55.560 --> 2:18:57.920 We don't even record a podcast where we just like 2:18:58.040 --> 2:19:02.039 put up trans with the information constantaneously, just a blank 2:19:02.120 --> 2:19:07.640 audio file that says, now think about farming. And I'm 2:19:07.680 --> 2:19:10.240 gonna say that that sounds very um, that sounds very 2:19:10.360 --> 2:19:14.160 sci fi. And that's my way of doing a slick 2:19:14.240 --> 2:19:18.560 segue here, because today we will be talking and I'm 2:19:18.800 --> 2:19:21.720 very excited to talk about this Um. She's one of 2:19:21.800 --> 2:19:26.080 my favorite authors. Um. You know, I really enjoyed discussing 2:19:26.080 --> 2:19:31.480 the idea is present in Huxley's work, but this one 2:19:32.040 --> 2:19:34.120 has a special place in my heart. Today we'll be 2:19:34.160 --> 2:19:37.440 taking a look at Octavia Butler's parable of the sewer 2:19:37.720 --> 2:19:42.960 and parable of the talents, and the idea is present within. Yes, 2:19:44.120 --> 2:19:48.760 back at you again with another podcast banger. But first 2:19:48.800 --> 2:19:54.320 of all, UM, Hi, I'm Andrew Um sometimes known as 2:19:54.520 --> 2:19:58.760 St Andrew. I'm kind of trying to rebrand as something else, 2:19:58.879 --> 2:20:02.520 still figuring that out, um, and you can find me 2:20:02.600 --> 2:20:08.120 on YouTube at st Andrewism. But this episode is not 2:20:08.160 --> 2:20:13.840 about me and my branding. This episode has about Octavia Butler, 2:20:14.600 --> 2:20:20.920 born and growing up in segregationary America. She became an 2:20:21.040 --> 2:20:24.400 award winning sci fi wathor um with a lot of 2:20:25.200 --> 2:20:29.120 influences and a lot of themes and ideas being covered 2:20:29.240 --> 2:20:33.520 in her work. Considering the very white male dominated scene 2:20:33.560 --> 2:20:35.200 that is sci fi. The fact that she was able 2:20:35.200 --> 2:20:39.080 to not only break into it, but also presents some 2:20:39.280 --> 2:20:44.280 things that I haven't been explored before, with angles that 2:20:44.400 --> 2:20:50.400 haven't really been explored before. UM really has touched a 2:20:50.480 --> 2:20:55.400 lot of people. She was somewhat after a futurist, but 2:20:55.520 --> 2:20:59.200 she was also very much UM. A lot of her 2:20:59.200 --> 2:21:01.960 stories really did UM. A lot of people have a 2:21:02.000 --> 2:21:06.000 lot of different backgrounds and and and histories, and she 2:21:06.040 --> 2:21:11.360 always managed to work aspects of herself into her main characters. UM. 2:21:11.480 --> 2:21:16.000 She was a big critic of hierarchies, which really draws 2:21:16.080 --> 2:21:21.520 me to her and UM. She also relatively has at 2:21:21.560 --> 2:21:26.240 times struggled with writer's block and depression. She wrote over 2:21:26.360 --> 2:21:30.240 two dozen essays, speeches, short stories, and novels and her 2:21:30.320 --> 2:21:33.119 time on this earth, but unfortunately she had a stroke 2:21:33.320 --> 2:21:38.800 and died in two thousand six. One of the or 2:21:38.840 --> 2:21:42.440 other two of the books that have had the most 2:21:42.520 --> 2:21:44.080 of whos that have had the most impact on me, 2:21:44.600 --> 2:21:47.760 And of course I haven't read her entire bibliography yet, 2:21:47.879 --> 2:21:51.360 but I hope to get to it. UM is part 2:21:51.400 --> 2:21:54.600 of the sewer right and you know, I think a 2:21:54.600 --> 2:21:56.080 lot of people have heard about it A gained a 2:21:56.120 --> 2:22:01.400 lot more relevance. Um after you know, as kind of patashi, 2:22:01.480 --> 2:22:04.800 we continue to accelerate as you know, we drew closer 2:22:04.920 --> 2:22:11.800 to the year that the book is setting, and regard 2:22:11.840 --> 2:22:14.120 to the second book, as we had you know, Trump 2:22:14.200 --> 2:22:18.440 come into office. Um. And I'll get into why that's 2:22:18.480 --> 2:22:22.280 relevant in a bit. In the first book, just to 2:22:22.360 --> 2:22:27.320 give a brief synopsis, global climate change and economic crisis 2:22:27.480 --> 2:22:31.360 has let a whole set of social crisis and chaos 2:22:31.440 --> 2:22:35.440 in the early twenties. Um. The book is set in California, 2:22:35.879 --> 2:22:40.560 and they are struggling with pervasive water shortages and masses 2:22:40.760 --> 2:22:44.120 of poor people will do basically anything to live to 2:22:44.160 --> 2:22:49.280 see another day. Everybody is struggling. So basically today in 2:22:49.360 --> 2:22:54.520 this setting, fifteen year old Lauren Lamina lives inside a 2:22:54.640 --> 2:22:59.840 gated community with her preacher father, family and neighbors, sheltered 2:23:00.080 --> 2:23:04.680 somewhat from the surrounding chios. However, when we get gates 2:23:04.720 --> 2:23:06.440 the community, now we think of you know, like really 2:23:06.560 --> 2:23:11.640 rich people, but in this case, gated community is just 2:23:11.920 --> 2:23:14.880 like a regular community that had to put up a 2:23:14.920 --> 2:23:19.880 bunch of walls to prevent like pyramede acts from like real. Yeah, 2:23:20.360 --> 2:23:23.080 it's like it's a suburb that used to be like 2:23:23.400 --> 2:23:26.720 a well off suburb, but as things got worse, it 2:23:26.879 --> 2:23:30.360 just turned into people hiding behind their walls because they 2:23:30.400 --> 2:23:33.039 were scared of poor folks, right Like it's there's an 2:23:33.080 --> 2:23:35.800 element of it that almost reads like a slasher movie 2:23:36.000 --> 2:23:37.640 in the opening of the book, which is one of 2:23:37.720 --> 2:23:42.080 the things that's really compelling about it. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:23:42.080 --> 2:23:45.959 they really Um. She really gets you invested in the setting, 2:23:46.280 --> 2:23:50.160 in the character early on. And part of what really 2:23:50.240 --> 2:23:52.760 gets you invested in Lauren as a protagonist is the 2:23:52.800 --> 2:23:58.000 fact that she suffers from a unique vulnerability or strength 2:23:58.040 --> 2:24:01.439 depending on how you look at it, um oftentimes vulnerability, 2:24:01.800 --> 2:24:07.520 and that is hyper empathy syndrome, which is basically that 2:24:07.680 --> 2:24:13.480 she's able to feel others emotions, others pains. So when 2:24:13.560 --> 2:24:17.640 others are very very sad, she feels very very sad. 2:24:18.160 --> 2:24:21.560 When others are in pain, she feels that same excruciating 2:24:21.640 --> 2:24:25.560 pain um and so on and so forth, And so 2:24:25.720 --> 2:24:29.160 she has to find sort of navigate this chaosk Wood 2:24:29.680 --> 2:24:35.160 while dealing with this um, with this um disorder that 2:24:35.760 --> 2:24:40.240 she's struggling with. At the same time, though, she's also 2:24:40.360 --> 2:24:44.720 navigating faith and the ideal of faith and philosophy because 2:24:45.120 --> 2:24:48.760 her father is like a preacher, and he's the preacher 2:24:48.959 --> 2:24:53.000 of their little gated community, and so she has grown 2:24:53.080 --> 2:24:55.720 up in the church, but she also has found issues 2:24:56.600 --> 2:24:59.760 in um, the religion that she grew up in places 2:24:59.800 --> 2:25:04.360 where she thinks it is sort of lead people a street. 2:25:04.360 --> 2:25:07.320 And that's kind of also what is drawn me to 2:25:07.440 --> 2:25:10.560 Lauren as a character, because I too, you know, have 2:25:11.120 --> 2:25:16.800 had to negotiate and navigate that whole religious realm. And 2:25:16.920 --> 2:25:20.119 so that's basically the setting she's in this community. Um, 2:25:20.360 --> 2:25:24.640 it's chaos on the outside. She's navigating her higher empathy syndrome, 2:25:24.840 --> 2:25:28.200 and she's also dealing with the ideas of religion and 2:25:29.120 --> 2:25:32.199 change and so and so forth. So as she's there, 2:25:32.760 --> 2:25:36.800 UM sort of thinking internally, she's keeping this juno and 2:25:36.879 --> 2:25:40.080 she's developing this new system of thought which he calls 2:25:40.160 --> 2:25:43.680 earth Seed, and we're gonna get into eoth Seed. But 2:25:43.800 --> 2:25:50.800 it basically shapes uh the decisions that she makes and 2:25:51.879 --> 2:25:55.800 the outcome of both books and as well as how 2:25:55.840 --> 2:26:00.920 they progress throughout. The second book places her in I'm 2:26:01.120 --> 2:26:04.240 really trying not to spoil, which is difficult to do 2:26:04.440 --> 2:26:07.640 because the second book, Lea is directly after the first book, 2:26:07.720 --> 2:26:10.720 and so and so forth. But I'll try to speak 2:26:10.760 --> 2:26:12.880 in broad brushes because I really think people should go 2:26:13.000 --> 2:26:20.120 and read it as blind as possible, um Lauren. Of course, 2:26:20.160 --> 2:26:22.120 eventually we will get into spoilers, by the way, so 2:26:22.440 --> 2:26:24.760 I'll try to let folks know when we get into that. 2:26:25.720 --> 2:26:29.800 But in the second book, UM Lauren is working on 2:26:30.040 --> 2:26:34.760 a community UM founded on her faith earth Seed, and 2:26:36.320 --> 2:26:40.840 they begin to face persecution. I'll see, after the election 2:26:41.160 --> 2:26:45.640 of this ultra conservative president who vows to quote make 2:26:45.760 --> 2:26:51.119 America great again, being you know, a young black woman 2:26:51.800 --> 2:26:56.600 in a minority religious faction in the United States of America. UM, 2:26:57.200 --> 2:27:02.840 her colony becomes a target of President Jarrett's reign of terror. UM. 2:27:02.920 --> 2:27:08.879 And at the same time, Laurence future daughter is navigating 2:27:11.080 --> 2:27:14.240 the discovery of the mother that she didn't knew, that 2:27:14.440 --> 2:27:17.280 she didn't know through the journals that her mother kept 2:27:17.440 --> 2:27:21.360 through the years. And I think I'll leave it at that. 2:27:23.480 --> 2:27:26.560 There are a lot of themes that you know, Butler 2:27:26.760 --> 2:27:33.440 covers in these texts, UM, and in fact, I've seen 2:27:33.480 --> 2:27:36.200 them described as but Lerian, which I would agree with, 2:27:36.320 --> 2:27:39.360 because she covers them in other books of Who's as 2:27:39.400 --> 2:27:42.880 well in different ways. UM. She talks about poverty and 2:27:43.040 --> 2:27:47.240 slavery and freedom, just what perseverance. She navigates the this 2:27:47.360 --> 2:27:52.280 idea of community and what community means. What how community 2:27:52.600 --> 2:27:57.560 is both a balance of inclusion and exclusion at the 2:27:57.600 --> 2:28:03.039 same time, and also the whole cycle of creation, destruction, 2:28:03.160 --> 2:28:14.160 and rebirth that really defines human history right now, well, 2:28:14.680 --> 2:28:18.039 in that books, in the setting of that book, Um, 2:28:18.879 --> 2:28:23.280 slavery has made a comeback more than it already has. 2:28:23.720 --> 2:28:27.080 You know, you have these extreme forms of death slavery 2:28:27.240 --> 2:28:32.560 and marital slavery and probably even plantation slavery. UM. I 2:28:32.640 --> 2:28:36.560 believe plantation slavery is mentioned in the second book, UM. 2:28:36.680 --> 2:28:38.879 And of course the slavery is inflicted upon the poor, 2:28:39.240 --> 2:28:42.840 particular a lot of company town style slavery right where 2:28:42.879 --> 2:28:46.480 people are like bonded, bound to a specific location because 2:28:46.520 --> 2:28:50.600 of their employer who protects them in this increasingly dangerous, 2:28:50.680 --> 2:28:56.160 banded filled world exactly. And in this world, you know, 2:28:56.360 --> 2:28:59.920 race remains a factor. Even though these books are written 2:29:00.160 --> 2:29:06.439 in the eighties and nineties, I believe parabolos over ise 2:29:06.840 --> 2:29:13.640 and right again, like He's got or Butler has a 2:29:13.800 --> 2:29:17.880 character using the same phrase Trump would when the President say, 2:29:17.920 --> 2:29:23.160 on um, what is it twenty four years before the 2:29:23.240 --> 2:29:27.240 start of his campaign. Um hard to overstate the degree 2:29:27.280 --> 2:29:28.760 to which she was ahead of the curve on a 2:29:28.840 --> 2:29:33.440 lot of things, because I mean, to be fair, she 2:29:33.640 --> 2:29:37.320 knew America. Oh yeah, you know, she grew up in segregation. 2:29:37.360 --> 2:29:41.560 You're America. She had to deal with her mother was 2:29:41.720 --> 2:29:45.080 a domestic liberal, and so she had to go in 2:29:46.040 --> 2:29:49.320 with her mother in these rich white families places through 2:29:49.360 --> 2:29:52.520 the back door. Um. And you know, obviously that would 2:29:52.520 --> 2:29:57.240 have shaped how she saw herself and herself in relation 2:29:58.360 --> 2:30:03.080 to the wider world through to America as an idea. 2:30:05.600 --> 2:30:10.520 And so I think that as she's writing of this 2:30:10.879 --> 2:30:14.280 you know, sort of horrific future, she's drawing a lot 2:30:14.480 --> 2:30:19.840 from the horrific past, or rather America's horrific past, of 2:30:19.920 --> 2:30:26.800 which her history is apart. So Lauren, who is in 2:30:26.959 --> 2:30:31.520 some ways Octavia but herself inside Um, spends a lot 2:30:31.560 --> 2:30:34.800 of time in the book, in both books, allying with 2:30:34.920 --> 2:30:39.360 people who are also minorities, who come from mixed backgrounds, 2:30:39.600 --> 2:30:45.680 people who tend to be overlooked by the dominant Christian 2:30:46.600 --> 2:30:53.640 religious right white UM order. Because I believe she finds 2:30:54.000 --> 2:30:58.280 some sense of safety and strength in people who have 2:30:58.640 --> 2:31:04.760 been so line. Slavery also ends up affecting Lawrence community 2:31:04.840 --> 2:31:08.240 too um in many ways that I don't want to spoil. 2:31:09.120 --> 2:31:15.040 But despite it all, the theme of perseverance is really 2:31:15.080 --> 2:31:22.400 what carries the story alone. Lauren ultimately is the archetype 2:31:22.640 --> 2:31:25.680 of the persevera. You know, she preaches a sermon and 2:31:25.760 --> 2:31:29.040 the importance of perseverance. She tries to get others to 2:31:29.080 --> 2:31:32.760 see the importance of hard work, and she sticks to 2:31:32.920 --> 2:31:37.840 her coals no matter what happens, and a lot happens 2:31:37.920 --> 2:31:42.920 that would quite honestly discourage a lot of people, to 2:31:43.000 --> 2:31:47.520 put it lightly, and yet she perseveres. And so let's 2:31:47.560 --> 2:31:52.120 tie that in as well to American history. Particularly in 2:31:52.240 --> 2:31:55.600 the first book, she ends up having to make a 2:31:55.720 --> 2:32:01.160 journey north um to northern California, and throughout that journey, 2:32:01.280 --> 2:32:03.040 you know, she meets with other people and interacts with 2:32:03.080 --> 2:32:10.240 the people, She makes allies and avoids enemies, and you 2:32:10.280 --> 2:32:13.600 can honestly draw some parallels to the underground real road. 2:32:14.200 --> 2:32:17.320 Of course, it's not an exact one to one, but 2:32:17.600 --> 2:32:20.400 in the sense of having to work with people along 2:32:20.400 --> 2:32:25.080 the way to progress out of a terrible situation, a 2:32:25.200 --> 2:32:29.640 hellish situation for the Hoop, not the guarantee, but the 2:32:29.720 --> 2:32:32.560 hope of some form of salvation when you get to 2:32:32.600 --> 2:32:34.879 the end of the journey. She doesn't do it alone. 2:32:34.959 --> 2:32:37.560 She does it with others Um, and that's kind of 2:32:37.640 --> 2:32:43.519 what keeps her hope alive. But it's not just externals. 2:32:43.560 --> 2:32:47.480 She has a lot of intrinsic motivation to persevere, which 2:32:47.520 --> 2:32:51.160 is driven by her philosophy. I mean, I think one 2:32:51.200 --> 2:32:54.240 of the things, because there's there's a lot of meaning 2:32:54.360 --> 2:32:56.440 and why she picks the parable of the sower in 2:32:56.480 --> 2:32:58.440 the parable of the talents for and it's it's pretty 2:32:58.440 --> 2:33:00.480 obvious and necessary xt of the books. It's she's not 2:33:00.600 --> 2:33:03.560 like hiding it under layers or anything. But one of 2:33:03.640 --> 2:33:07.160 the things that in particular the second book deals with Um, 2:33:07.400 --> 2:33:09.320 I mean, in the first book to do a degree 2:33:09.520 --> 2:33:15.080 is kind of the the pointlessness of responding to dystopian 2:33:15.240 --> 2:33:18.760 change in society by just like hunkering down in a 2:33:18.840 --> 2:33:21.680 bunker and trying to hide from it and protect your family. 2:33:22.240 --> 2:33:25.040 Like one of the reoccurring themes is the degree to 2:33:25.080 --> 2:33:27.360 which that doesn't work. And one of the things that's 2:33:27.360 --> 2:33:30.840 really interesting about this is a dystopian novel. Um. This 2:33:31.080 --> 2:33:33.840 is a novel that is both of these novels are 2:33:33.920 --> 2:33:37.400 kind of imagining the collapse of a lot of aspects 2:33:37.640 --> 2:33:40.360 of American society, but it is not. At no point 2:33:40.480 --> 2:33:44.520 does the United States really collapse in these books, and 2:33:44.720 --> 2:33:47.880 and even like as much as authoritarianism is present, at 2:33:47.920 --> 2:33:50.880 no point is the government completely taken over and completely 2:33:50.959 --> 2:33:54.279 under the control of like a unified fascist regime or anything. 2:33:54.959 --> 2:34:00.160 Elections are still happen in company. Elections exist, but you 2:34:00.160 --> 2:34:03.920 said have to pay them to you know, to you 2:34:04.879 --> 2:34:08.240 and and the the like Christian death squad type things 2:34:08.320 --> 2:34:11.480 that are roaming around are distinctly non state actors. They 2:34:11.560 --> 2:34:14.400 have backing to as an extent from the state. They're 2:34:14.440 --> 2:34:17.760 not really opposed by it. But it's it's it's again. 2:34:17.840 --> 2:34:20.400 It's this thing that we we are actually dealing with 2:34:20.600 --> 2:34:24.200 where collapse doesn't look like okay, everything's fallen apart, and 2:34:24.280 --> 2:34:27.160 now it's whoever's got the strongest group of buddies, who 2:34:27.240 --> 2:34:29.440 can who can you know, do their best in the 2:34:29.520 --> 2:34:31.920 waste land. It's like no, no, no. It is about 2:34:32.120 --> 2:34:36.520 groups of people trying to navigate in an increasingly dysfunctional state. 2:34:36.800 --> 2:34:40.560 And the only way to actually survive that is um 2:34:41.360 --> 2:34:44.000 survivals complicated, and it's never as simple as just like 2:34:44.160 --> 2:34:46.600 picking a good farm to hide on. You know that 2:34:46.800 --> 2:34:49.400 that's that's not going to work out for exactly. I 2:34:49.440 --> 2:34:51.760 just want to point out as well, that's as just 2:34:51.920 --> 2:34:55.120 functional as things. People are still going to work, not 2:34:55.240 --> 2:34:57.640 just the people who you know in company talents or 2:34:57.640 --> 2:35:00.080 in debt bondage, but even Lawrence fathers. You know, he 2:35:00.200 --> 2:35:03.640 takes his bike every day and rides out into the 2:35:03.840 --> 2:35:07.400 chaos to go and work for a weege to come 2:35:07.440 --> 2:35:10.040 back and to try to support his family. And of 2:35:10.120 --> 2:35:13.320 course in this kid community we see that they attempts 2:35:13.360 --> 2:35:16.880 to stay gated. You know, it's also in a futile 2:35:17.200 --> 2:35:20.520 like the rich have their high security communities and be 2:35:20.640 --> 2:35:25.880 able to escape in helicopters when anything happens, but they 2:35:25.959 --> 2:35:30.240 have no security even in this illusion of security, and 2:35:30.320 --> 2:35:33.720 that hundering down strategy they were taken wasn't working. In 2:35:33.760 --> 2:35:39.720 the first half of the book really shows why. Yeah, 2:35:40.120 --> 2:35:43.800 it's um, it's it's a It's a book about collapse 2:35:43.920 --> 2:35:50.880 by somebody who's uh who, who grew up in a 2:35:51.000 --> 2:35:54.920 situation where her her childhood had a lot of elements 2:35:55.040 --> 2:36:00.200 of the collapse that many particularly like many folks are 2:36:00.320 --> 2:36:02.720 concerned about now, Like that's what she grew up in 2:36:03.360 --> 2:36:07.920 was there's no there's no protection. Violence can come from 2:36:07.959 --> 2:36:11.080 all sides and it's random, um, and you have no 2:36:11.560 --> 2:36:14.800 there are no guarantees in this like world that you've 2:36:14.840 --> 2:36:16.800 come into. Which is this thing that like people are 2:36:16.840 --> 2:36:21.119 freaking out about now as we encounter kind of aspects 2:36:21.200 --> 2:36:24.000 of the world order that we had grown up with 2:36:24.360 --> 2:36:26.840 that we feel like are falling apart. And I think 2:36:26.879 --> 2:36:30.320 the thing that's so compelling about Butler is her books 2:36:30.400 --> 2:36:32.680 kind of are coming from the perspective of someone for 2:36:32.800 --> 2:36:38.920 whom that order and that world were never real. Yeah. Yeah, 2:36:39.720 --> 2:36:42.800 And that's why her contributions to sci fi is so valuable, 2:36:43.240 --> 2:36:44.800 you know, because all of these sci fi writes us 2:36:44.840 --> 2:36:47.960 it's just like regular privileged white Kays and you know, 2:36:48.000 --> 2:36:50.800 and and they just come with that experience. And it 2:36:51.080 --> 2:36:54.760 isn't often um repeated critique of sci fi. Um you 2:36:54.800 --> 2:36:57.520 see didn't tweets themself sometimes, where like a lot of 2:36:57.560 --> 2:37:00.920 it is just like because they are like alien really 2:37:00.959 --> 2:37:03.440 did sci Fi? It's like, whoa, what if the things 2:37:03.480 --> 2:37:06.320 that white people did other people happen to white people? 2:37:07.000 --> 2:37:10.840 You know, Like this whole idea that these alien invasion. 2:37:11.280 --> 2:37:15.280 UM fears and alienvasion stories are just like what if 2:37:15.320 --> 2:37:21.280 clualism but too white people to rich countries, you know, 2:37:21.920 --> 2:37:26.080 mm hm. Another part of the reason that the attempt 2:37:26.160 --> 2:37:33.560 to hunker down and stuff and basically exclude others from 2:37:33.600 --> 2:37:37.520 their community failed is because, and Lauren rights this in 2:37:37.560 --> 2:37:43.560 her diary, exclusion breeds resentment among the excluded. So even 2:37:43.640 --> 2:37:47.560 though Lawrence neighborhood, while you know, gated and wall and stuff, 2:37:47.879 --> 2:37:50.640 was not particularly rich, just the mare fact that they 2:37:50.680 --> 2:37:56.800 had those walls up basically signaled to the outside world 2:37:57.160 --> 2:38:01.959 that they had something to hid, some sort of resources 2:38:02.280 --> 2:38:05.720 they wanted to safeguard, you know, the only thing they 2:38:05.760 --> 2:38:07.800 had to safeguard with themselves. Because a lot of the 2:38:07.800 --> 2:38:11.080 members the community were you know, unemployed and extremely poor, 2:38:12.480 --> 2:38:17.680 that alone sort of symbolized, uh, sort of sort of 2:38:17.720 --> 2:38:24.720 a beacon UM drawing people to eventually UM attack. And 2:38:25.000 --> 2:38:29.840 that's a slight spoiler, but yeah, and you know, despite 2:38:32.160 --> 2:38:36.280 the problems that exclusion and are causing UM, Lauren as 2:38:36.360 --> 2:38:42.359 she realizes that her community could not handle that approach. 2:38:44.120 --> 2:38:46.520 Even then as she's progressing your author and stuff, and 2:38:46.600 --> 2:38:51.119 she's to beating with herself, you know, who to bring 2:38:51.240 --> 2:38:56.440 into her fold exclusion and inclusion. They play a role. 2:38:56.959 --> 2:39:01.160 You know, Um, she has to find form bonds and 2:39:01.440 --> 2:39:05.320 you know, stay safe. But at the same time, the 2:39:05.440 --> 2:39:08.840 bonds that she forms could put her in danjil if 2:39:09.440 --> 2:39:13.920 she's betrayed, or if the people that she invests in 2:39:14.320 --> 2:39:19.400 end up being harmed in some way, because the harm 2:39:19.480 --> 2:39:24.960 that they experience will ultimately affect her as well. So, 2:39:25.400 --> 2:39:30.200 as Lauren is making her way up north, she is 2:39:30.560 --> 2:39:34.680 continuing to wrestle with this idea of inclusion and exclusion 2:39:35.200 --> 2:39:37.600 because as she's progressing north in hopes of you know, 2:39:37.720 --> 2:39:41.600 building a community of some kind, creating, joining, forming community 2:39:41.680 --> 2:39:49.160 or some kind, she's also forming and establishing her religion. 2:39:50.560 --> 2:39:53.240 Like I mentioned before, it played a major role in 2:39:53.320 --> 2:39:57.120 the community she came from, and in fact, novel points 2:39:57.160 --> 2:40:00.240 so that one of the reasons people are attracted you know, 2:40:00.480 --> 2:40:06.600 religion to Christianity in this chaotic time and in general, 2:40:06.680 --> 2:40:09.360 really it's because it provides hope and hope in the 2:40:09.440 --> 2:40:13.560 form of an afterlife, and hope is what people really 2:40:13.920 --> 2:40:19.440 really need in these hellish twenties that they are dealing with. 2:40:20.640 --> 2:40:24.120 The Lauren comes to realize that the hope and hope 2:40:24.160 --> 2:40:28.880 and the afterlife ultimately isn't enough for the people that 2:40:29.360 --> 2:40:33.400 have invested so much into it. Um, one of the 2:40:33.480 --> 2:40:39.520 people in the community, UM ends up despite being a 2:40:39.560 --> 2:40:47.840 staunch believer that UM trigger warning by the way for suicide. UM, 2:40:48.160 --> 2:40:52.120 despite being a strong believer that you know, suicide is 2:40:52.720 --> 2:40:55.200 a sin and I was sending straight to hell. She 2:40:55.440 --> 2:41:00.320 is so lost hope and could no longer trust in 2:41:00.840 --> 2:41:03.520 her has been doing with so much pain that she 2:41:03.800 --> 2:41:06.920 ends up taking her own life. And she takes her 2:41:06.959 --> 2:41:09.119 own life, And as Lauren remarks, she takes her own 2:41:09.200 --> 2:41:14.560 life knowing Um, or at least believing the pain hereafter, 2:41:15.520 --> 2:41:19.040 and yet she finds it more of a reprieve than 2:41:19.080 --> 2:41:26.080 the pain she was experiencing here now. And so as 2:41:26.160 --> 2:41:30.440 Lauren is witnessing these things happening around her, Um is 2:41:31.040 --> 2:41:38.320 dealing with you know, loss and her baptism and her 2:41:38.520 --> 2:41:44.359 father's commitment to the church. She is continuing to develop 2:41:44.440 --> 2:41:47.920 the idea of earth Seed, and she begins to contrast 2:41:48.200 --> 2:41:54.080 earth Seed from christian with Christianity UM, and particularly in 2:41:54.200 --> 2:41:58.680 the sense of how the two religions address hope and change. 2:42:00.160 --> 2:42:03.600 In Christianity, you know, they have the hope UM of 2:42:03.720 --> 2:42:08.800 the afterlife against this brutal life, life now a life, 2:42:09.000 --> 2:42:14.760 whereas earth Seed simply presents the central principle, God is changed. 2:42:15.080 --> 2:42:19.720 That's the first principle of earth Seed. Second is that 2:42:20.480 --> 2:42:24.320 shape God. So first you have to recognize and accept 2:42:24.400 --> 2:42:28.240 that change is inevitable, often destructive, but you could also 2:42:28.280 --> 2:42:31.480 recognize your other poet to shape it um. And so 2:42:31.680 --> 2:42:35.640 from that comes the third principle, which is to to 2:42:36.080 --> 2:42:45.160 um pursue the destiny, the destiny being the establishment of 2:42:47.360 --> 2:42:56.640 humanity and other worlds. And to be quite honest, I 2:42:56.800 --> 2:43:01.240 am as this is one aspect of the philosophy would 2:43:01.240 --> 2:43:06.040 see that I think I diverge from Um Laura and 2:43:06.120 --> 2:43:09.960 of course has a lot of focus on the heavens 2:43:09.959 --> 2:43:15.920 as in the cosmic heavens and scattering seed, which is, 2:43:16.200 --> 2:43:20.360 you know, humanity across you know, all these different planets, 2:43:20.440 --> 2:43:25.920 establishing ourselves in different worlds. But I feel as though 2:43:25.959 --> 2:43:31.240 the destiny is in a way once the destruction. I 2:43:31.360 --> 2:43:38.800 think it's it's a misplaced um, a misplaced who I guess. 2:43:39.760 --> 2:43:42.000 I mean, there's that's kind of one of the points 2:43:42.040 --> 2:43:45.080 of the book, right, because there's especially in the second book, 2:43:45.120 --> 2:43:48.480 there's a lot from the perspective of her daughter. That 2:43:49.040 --> 2:43:53.080 kind of shows how as as much her philosophy is 2:43:53.200 --> 2:43:57.600 a really understandable and in some ways admirable adaptation to 2:43:57.760 --> 2:44:00.640 the completely fucked up time she would is born into. 2:44:01.360 --> 2:44:04.240 It's also in the same way that a lot of 2:44:04.280 --> 2:44:07.080 other people's philosophies become, you know, and that her parents 2:44:07.160 --> 2:44:10.560 and stuff are earlier. In the first book, it's a 2:44:10.640 --> 2:44:15.279 way for her to kind of justify not paying attention 2:44:15.360 --> 2:44:17.920 to the people in her life and not not taking 2:44:18.040 --> 2:44:20.400 proper care of them because she's got this thing that's 2:44:20.440 --> 2:44:24.600 bigger than them. She works, and you really by the 2:44:24.720 --> 2:44:27.000 by the end of the second book, you really have 2:44:27.160 --> 2:44:29.720 to sort of contend with the fact that you know, 2:44:30.920 --> 2:44:34.400 you sort after grapple with how things with her daughter 2:44:34.760 --> 2:44:41.080 would handle India. I guess I'll leave it at that. Um. Yeah, 2:44:44.000 --> 2:44:46.640 that's part of it. I mean, she's so dedicated to 2:44:46.760 --> 2:44:49.920 this cause, so this new religion of whose um and 2:44:50.040 --> 2:44:52.720 you know she's recruiting people into it. You know, she's 2:44:53.200 --> 2:44:56.480 selling people least this whoop. You know that following its 2:44:56.760 --> 2:45:00.800 believe in a destiny. Eventually, you know, space is going 2:45:00.840 --> 2:45:03.280 to become the real life heaven. We could actually get 2:45:03.320 --> 2:45:06.400 out there. Can you start for ourselves for ourselves, and 2:45:06.480 --> 2:45:08.720 that's part of it as well. Part of the idea 2:45:08.760 --> 2:45:12.920 of the Destiny is, you know, a fresh start for humanity, 2:45:13.080 --> 2:45:16.720 a sort of a maturation of humanity, this idea that 2:45:17.360 --> 2:45:20.680 you know, once humanity establishes itself in other woods, that 2:45:20.800 --> 2:45:28.320 it would have grown up as a species. Yeah, and 2:45:28.480 --> 2:45:31.920 it's it's one of the things that I really respect 2:45:31.959 --> 2:45:35.199 about these books that I think a lesser writer wouldn't 2:45:35.200 --> 2:45:37.480 have been able to pull off, is that the degree, 2:45:37.560 --> 2:45:40.600 without beating you in the head with it, you see 2:45:41.959 --> 2:45:48.000 her as first failed by the philosophies and ideologies of 2:45:48.120 --> 2:45:53.600 her parents generation and by the systems that people had 2:45:53.640 --> 2:45:56.280 gotten stuck in. She's very much a character who grows 2:45:56.360 --> 2:45:58.199 up in a world where all the adults are stuck 2:45:58.760 --> 2:46:01.480 um and since like a system that has become a 2:46:01.560 --> 2:46:05.800 death cult, and she has to figure out a way 2:46:06.040 --> 2:46:08.160 out of it. What she comes to believe in so 2:46:08.400 --> 2:46:10.760 much that in her own way, she becomes stuck in 2:46:10.920 --> 2:46:14.400 that new thing, and it renders her unable to see 2:46:14.720 --> 2:46:18.800 certain things that are important. And the book never portrays 2:46:18.840 --> 2:46:21.880 her as completely right or completely wrong, because that's just 2:46:22.000 --> 2:46:26.680 not how civilization works. Things just change over time, and 2:46:27.560 --> 2:46:31.400 you know, the the ideology that her parents and the 2:46:31.480 --> 2:46:33.600 adults are all stuck in in the beginning of the 2:46:33.600 --> 2:46:36.040 book is an ideology that worked to a degree at 2:46:36.120 --> 2:46:39.160 some point in the past. Um, which is just it 2:46:39.480 --> 2:46:42.400 it's it's It does a really good job of showing 2:46:42.440 --> 2:46:44.800 a number of things, which is kind of what it's 2:46:44.840 --> 2:46:48.600 like to be a kid realizing that the adults have 2:46:48.760 --> 2:46:53.720 fucked you, what it's like to become radicalized, um, and 2:46:53.920 --> 2:46:55.879 realize that the world doesn't have to be the way 2:46:55.959 --> 2:46:57.560 that it is, and what it's like to let that 2:46:57.720 --> 2:47:01.959 radicalization lead you somewhere to where you miss important things, 2:47:02.240 --> 2:47:05.880 Like there's so much going on in the evolution of 2:47:06.120 --> 2:47:09.560 what the characters believe in this book that is is 2:47:09.680 --> 2:47:14.760 just masterful from a storytelling standpoint. Yeah, I mean, the 2:47:14.840 --> 2:47:17.640 second book really does a good job showing her sort 2:47:17.680 --> 2:47:20.360 of blindness as well when it comes to things going on, 2:47:20.879 --> 2:47:27.320 because what ends up happening one of the worst incidents 2:47:27.440 --> 2:47:33.520 in that second book is something that's of course not 2:47:33.760 --> 2:47:35.760 a victim blame, but it is something they could have 2:47:35.840 --> 2:47:44.080 prepared for a bit more, a lot more. Actually, Yeah, 2:47:44.200 --> 2:47:47.280 it's it's They're good books. There are books that you 2:47:47.360 --> 2:47:50.120 will if you're like me, you will start reading them 2:47:50.480 --> 2:47:53.400 and you will get really into the first book, and 2:47:53.480 --> 2:47:55.520 then you'll take a ten minute break to like check 2:47:55.600 --> 2:47:59.120 the news, and something will send you into a panic spiral, 2:47:59.240 --> 2:48:02.000 and you'll read the new two books getting increasingly depressed. 2:48:02.600 --> 2:48:07.400 It's good next book because the third book never released. Yeah, 2:48:07.800 --> 2:48:10.400 she never quite got to make it. Yeah, And I'll 2:48:10.440 --> 2:48:11.960 get into that as well in a bit in how 2:48:12.000 --> 2:48:15.320 it ties into the destiny right, but just a real 2:48:15.400 --> 2:48:19.320 three You know, who is principle? God has changed. God 2:48:19.440 --> 2:48:21.920 is not a person. It doesn't love or hate or 2:48:22.000 --> 2:48:25.080 watch over us or no us. It just is second 2:48:25.120 --> 2:48:32.440 principle shape God. God is maalable. God is power, infinite, irresistible, inexorable, indifferent, 2:48:32.600 --> 2:48:35.520 and yet God is pliable. Tricks to teacher chiosk Clay 2:48:36.680 --> 2:48:39.560 and truly emphasizes the change is neither good nor bad, 2:48:39.640 --> 2:48:43.520 but it is potential. And we could and we have 2:48:43.560 --> 2:48:47.320 a choice to either be a victim of change, the 2:48:47.440 --> 2:48:53.520 victim of God, or we can become a partner of God, 2:48:53.680 --> 2:48:55.520 or we can become a shape of God, or we 2:48:55.520 --> 2:49:02.039 could just stay as God's plaything as changes prey. It's unavoidable, 2:49:02.200 --> 2:49:08.320 but our actions can shape its direction. And speed, and 2:49:08.440 --> 2:49:14.880 the end change prevails. And there's a comfort in that 2:49:16.400 --> 2:49:21.959 because once we can understand that you can return that efforts, 2:49:23.800 --> 2:49:28.840 the inevitability of change can be what thrust us forward. 2:49:30.360 --> 2:49:34.760 And I think, um, I think people who are invested 2:49:34.879 --> 2:49:41.720 in in activism, in organizing and just revolutionary work, I 2:49:41.800 --> 2:49:43.760 think their aspects of the see that I think would 2:49:43.760 --> 2:49:50.600 be very motivating, very impactful, very energizing because despite you know, 2:49:50.680 --> 2:49:56.000 how circumstances play out, Um, there's a recognition that we 2:49:56.120 --> 2:50:03.280 are never entirely disempowered, you know. And so like just 2:50:03.440 --> 2:50:06.280 the last point I want to get into about the destiny, 2:50:08.840 --> 2:50:10.960 I think that's what it would make me if I 2:50:11.040 --> 2:50:14.039 were to be in this world. I think that's where 2:50:14.040 --> 2:50:19.080 I would diverge from the earthtied orthodoxy, because I mean, 2:50:19.520 --> 2:50:23.880 Lauren talks about how, you know, history is just this 2:50:24.000 --> 2:50:26.360 repetitive thing. We have all these wars and kill a 2:50:26.400 --> 2:50:29.640 bunch of people and impoverish others and spread disease and hunger, 2:50:30.920 --> 2:50:34.520 and the whole thing is just because that's how it's 2:50:34.520 --> 2:50:38.200 always been, just being. We have to accept that we 2:50:38.280 --> 2:50:42.800 can choose to do more, make something more of ourselves, 2:50:42.879 --> 2:50:46.240 and to who making something more of ourselves is establishing 2:50:46.240 --> 2:50:50.440 ourselves another planet. So if she is earteed Orthodoxy, I 2:50:50.560 --> 2:50:57.119 suppose I'm an earth Seed Protestant. I think you see 2:50:57.280 --> 2:51:00.920 Martin Luther nailing your thesis to I don't know the 2:51:00.959 --> 2:51:04.240 door of her house in Seattle exactly. I would be 2:51:04.360 --> 2:51:06.800 a reform of the of the destiny in the sense 2:51:06.920 --> 2:51:09.640 that I see the destiny could be creating a heaven 2:51:09.800 --> 2:51:13.800 here on Earth, like rather than pursuing it cosmic heaven. 2:51:14.600 --> 2:51:17.440 I don't think it's even something that Lauren, at least 2:51:17.440 --> 2:51:20.560 I don't recall Lauran ever grappling with the possibility, because 2:51:20.600 --> 2:51:25.240 she really is fixated on this cosmic um idea. I 2:51:25.280 --> 2:51:28.480 do think she grabbed the possibility that humanity can mature 2:51:29.120 --> 2:51:32.760 quote quote here on Earth. You know. Um. She doesn't 2:51:32.760 --> 2:51:35.720 really draw munch attention or has ent much time thinking 2:51:35.760 --> 2:51:40.680 about things like ecosystem restoration or you know, changing the 2:51:42.320 --> 2:51:45.680 pushing back against the government or the economic system that 2:51:45.879 --> 2:51:49.920 is impoverishing and inflicting violence upon people. She's just really 2:51:50.520 --> 2:51:53.680 fixated on the destiny. And so that's when I get 2:51:53.720 --> 2:51:55.920 into the Food Book and things I learned about the 2:51:55.959 --> 2:52:00.120 Third Book when I was researching for this episode. But 2:52:00.400 --> 2:52:03.680 actually planned on exploring the fulfillment the destiny in the 2:52:03.800 --> 2:52:07.760 third book, um Parable of the trick Still. In fact, 2:52:07.840 --> 2:52:10.360 she intended to have a seven part series, so the 2:52:10.440 --> 2:52:14.400 third book would have been near the middle, as the 2:52:14.520 --> 2:52:18.320 story would have focused on another woman named Imara, who 2:52:18.400 --> 2:52:20.480 is living on he called me in the future, on 2:52:20.560 --> 2:52:24.600 a planet called Boom, far away from Earth. Cold. It 2:52:24.760 --> 2:52:27.520 is not the heaven that was hoped for, but gray, 2:52:27.879 --> 2:52:33.960 dank and utterly miserable. Everybody is homesick. Um homesick, not 2:52:34.120 --> 2:52:36.760 just in like, oh, I haven't been home in a 2:52:36.800 --> 2:52:38.960 while kind of thing, homesick in the sense of, like 2:52:40.080 --> 2:52:43.200 you know when someone is like an amputee and they 2:52:43.280 --> 2:52:47.480 have this sort of phantom limb sensation. Yeah, this homesickness 2:52:47.560 --> 2:52:54.880 is like a phantom limb pain, a neurological debilitation. It's 2:52:54.959 --> 2:53:00.960 like trying to graft humanity answer new planet, and it's 2:53:01.200 --> 2:53:05.080 it's it's like if humanity were a branch and this 2:53:05.200 --> 2:53:07.760 new plant was a tree, and like both the tree 2:53:07.879 --> 2:53:12.680 and the branch are kind of rejecting each other. Um. 2:53:12.840 --> 2:53:16.680 And so she never really got very far into writing 2:53:16.760 --> 2:53:19.520 Parable of the Tricksters. In fact, she had a lot 2:53:19.560 --> 2:53:24.040 of different um ways of approaching it a lot of 2:53:24.080 --> 2:53:27.000 different manuscripts that she got, you know, a couple of 2:53:27.000 --> 2:53:30.240 pages into and then discarded. You know, so in some 2:53:30.480 --> 2:53:34.800 versions the call instead of having like creeping blindness. In others, 2:53:34.879 --> 2:53:40.160 they get this telepathy um. In other versions, she has 2:53:40.200 --> 2:53:44.080 to solve a murder. Another version, she becomes a ghost. 2:53:44.800 --> 2:53:47.879 Sometimes she's an earth an earth Seed skeptics. Sometimes she's 2:53:47.879 --> 2:53:51.800 a true believer. Sometimes she's a hyper rampath. Sometimes she's 2:53:52.280 --> 2:53:55.760 cured of it um. Sometimes the planet itself is filled 2:53:55.800 --> 2:53:59.920 with giant dinosaurs, other times small animals, other times intel 2:54:00.040 --> 2:54:04.400 gent aliens um. And there's also this idea, this I 2:54:04.440 --> 2:54:09.560 would say, very Twilight Zone esque idea that the aliens 2:54:09.560 --> 2:54:14.720 that they do encounter tokens of their escalating collective madness. 2:54:16.520 --> 2:54:18.600 And so the whole idea of power of the tricks 2:54:18.680 --> 2:54:22.120 to and would have been the subsequent books was you know, 2:54:23.120 --> 2:54:26.640 the continuation of the concept of choice choosing to either 2:54:26.720 --> 2:54:30.200 you know, live together, we're together, struggle together, or you know, 2:54:31.600 --> 2:54:35.920 fight and scheme and lose their minds, break down, die 2:54:36.040 --> 2:54:40.080 and murder alone. In a speech to the u N 2:54:40.440 --> 2:54:42.720 in two thousand one, that would be like five years 2:54:42.800 --> 2:54:44.960 before she passed away. I think she did, like I 2:54:45.000 --> 2:54:49.480 said two thousand and six, she speaks about how before 2:54:49.560 --> 2:54:52.280 she even like started working on the first Parable novel, 2:54:52.879 --> 2:54:55.599 she wanted to write a novel about a utopian civilization 2:54:56.040 --> 2:55:00.360 where everybody had a kind of hyper empathy. But then 2:55:01.920 --> 2:55:05.000 actually figured it would be a utopian society because everyone 2:55:05.120 --> 2:55:11.320 would be inclined to, you know, behave in a more 2:55:11.440 --> 2:55:17.080 pro social way, because any anti social activity they would have, 2:55:18.000 --> 2:55:22.119 you know, inflict upon others would be inflixed upon themselves immediately. 2:55:23.000 --> 2:55:27.640 But then she realized it wouldn't work because sharing pain, 2:55:27.800 --> 2:55:31.640 the threat of shared pain, doesn't necessarily make people behave 2:55:31.760 --> 2:55:35.440 better towards another. She points to be the popular pain 2:55:35.560 --> 2:55:39.000 full supports of you know, like boxing and American football, 2:55:39.840 --> 2:55:42.560 you know. And so she recognizes that this idea of 2:55:42.640 --> 2:55:45.360 everyone being a hypergram path bec cause a lot of trouble. 2:55:45.480 --> 2:55:48.120 I mean, if everyone feels each other's pain, who wants 2:55:48.160 --> 2:55:50.560 to be a dentist? You know, who wants to be 2:55:50.640 --> 2:55:54.120 a newse um. And so she discards that idea and 2:55:54.520 --> 2:55:57.360 she basically created Lauren, who was a lone hyper and 2:55:57.480 --> 2:56:06.879 path in the would that is empathy deficient ultimately, I think, 2:56:07.080 --> 2:56:10.320 But I guess the heart of you know a lot 2:56:10.360 --> 2:56:15.760 of the issues that we're dealing with, um, she grapp us, 2:56:15.800 --> 2:56:21.240 a lot of questions that should still be explored, the 2:56:21.280 --> 2:56:24.360 idea of inclusion and exclusion, that balance when you know, 2:56:24.760 --> 2:56:31.120 developing community, concept of perseverance, UM, concept of hope, the 2:56:31.520 --> 2:56:38.360 creation and destruction and re birth of really life, and 2:56:39.240 --> 2:56:43.600 just what makes life life? I guess I'll wrap things 2:56:43.720 --> 2:56:49.600 up with the code. Does tolerance have a chance only 2:56:49.640 --> 2:56:54.360 if we wanted to tolerance, Like any aspect of peace, 2:56:55.160 --> 2:56:59.440 it's forever a week in progress, never completed. And if 2:56:59.480 --> 2:57:01.360 we are as an intelligent as we'd like to think, 2:57:01.440 --> 2:57:08.720 we are never abandoned. That's it. What has change? Chep 2:57:08.800 --> 2:57:13.280 Guarded Peace? Well, I think that's about as good a 2:57:13.360 --> 2:57:16.959 line as any to end on. Go read Octavia Butler. 2:57:17.240 --> 2:57:21.520 If you haven't check her out, go to the library. 2:57:21.920 --> 2:57:24.560 Her ships all over the library. Libraries are filthy with 2:57:24.640 --> 2:57:27.960 Octavia Butler books. You'll find it or steal it off 2:57:28.000 --> 2:57:32.959 the internet. She's not gonna mind. Hey, We'll be back 2:57:33.040 --> 2:57:36.200 Monday with more episodes every week from now until the 2:57:36.280 --> 2:57:38.840 heat death of the universe. It could happen years. A 2:57:38.879 --> 2:57:41.720 production of Cool Zone Media For more podcasts from cool 2:57:41.800 --> 2:57:44.400 Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com, 2:57:44.560 --> 2:57:46.320 or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 2:57:46.320 --> 2:57:49.400 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 2:57:49.440 --> 2:57:52.120 find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at 2:57:52.160 --> 2:57:55.360 cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.