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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Oh, it could happen here

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Speaker 1: and earlier this week, not the week you're hearing this,

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Speaker 1: but the week we recorded it. It did it being

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Speaker 1: the end of Roe v. Wade via Supreme Court fiat,

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Speaker 1: and also the coming end of a hundred years of

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Speaker 1: social progress and less people get real organized and aggressive,

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Speaker 1: real fucking quick. I'm Robert Evans? Who else? Who else?

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Speaker 1: Do I got on with me? Today? Is there a?

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Speaker 1: Is there a? Is there a Christopher Wong on the line? Yes,

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Speaker 1: there there is one. There are many others, but but

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Speaker 1: I am me, yeah, the others do not count. Um?

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Speaker 1: Is there a Garrison Davis on the line? The only

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Speaker 1: one that I know of? That's right, that's right. We

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Speaker 1: exterminated the others in a in a brutal set of

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Speaker 1: purges Allah, Stalin Um, and then of course Sharene, Lonnie

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Speaker 1: and a Sharne. I'm here too. Would you like to

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Speaker 1: introduce Sophie of I mean, the one and only Sophie. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well that's us. And now today I am intensely excited

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Speaker 1: to introduce our guest, Um, who is a cool person

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Speaker 1: doing cool stuff to steal another one of our podcasters,

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Speaker 1: Cat Green of the Abortion Access Front Kat, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show. Thank you for coming on. I know this

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Speaker 1: has been a hell week for you. Oh yeah, thanks

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Speaker 1: for having me on. I really appreciate it. Now, Um,

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Speaker 1: you and I have a friend in common, and you

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Speaker 1: guys were actually at a national conference for abortion access

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Speaker 1: when the news dropped a little early. Do you want

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Speaker 1: to talk to us a little bit about what happened there? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, now that the conference is over, I can

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Speaker 1: say that we were in one of the worst cities

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Speaker 1: in the world to be in when all of this happened, Orlando, Florida,

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Speaker 1: which is basically made of paper sets. Right. Honestly, you

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Speaker 1: could have stopped that sentence. At one of the worst

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Speaker 1: cities to be in. Yeah, we had actually been out

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Speaker 1: to dinner at the oldest restaurant in Florida earlier that night,

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Speaker 1: and it was a lovely evening, um, even though like

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Speaker 1: some angry driver tried to kill our mutual friend over

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Speaker 1: a parking space Florida, over that part, you know, I

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Speaker 1: mean Florida. Yeah, you know. Also, the day had started

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Speaker 1: with their already being a bomb threat at a clinic

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Speaker 1: in Knoxville, so I was trying to help people find

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Speaker 1: information about that earlier in the day, and then um,

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Speaker 1: we went out to dinner thinking that we got to

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Speaker 1: relax x and then came back to the news as

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Speaker 1: it was breaking and into the lobby of our hotel

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Speaker 1: where um, the remaining providers and advocates that were there were, um,

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Speaker 1: just trying to make do Yeah. So cat At first

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Speaker 1: of all, I guess we should talk about what the

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Speaker 1: Abortion Access Front does and your job there, because this

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Speaker 1: is something I don't think a lot of people think

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Speaker 1: about it. One of the things that's become clear to

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Speaker 1: me from some of the reaction of some folks this

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Speaker 1: week on the more liberal side of things, is there

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Speaker 1: is a general unawareness of how violent and intense the

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Speaker 1: threats against abortion access providers have been for like forty years. Yeah, well.

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Speaker 1: So Abortion Access Front was founded by Liz Winstead, my

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Speaker 1: partner who was the co creator of The Daily Show,

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Speaker 1: and started as a progressive advocacy and messaging hub. And

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Speaker 1: so we were making funny videos about abortion and then

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Speaker 1: Trump got elected. Were like, Wow, our job's got way

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Speaker 1: more serious all of a sudden, And so we had

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Speaker 1: like volunteers in the week after election, and so we

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Speaker 1: started becoming matchmakers for volunteers to UM different clinics around

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Speaker 1: the country, and we were doing comedy tours where we

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Speaker 1: were trying to build community around the clinics um in

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Speaker 1: different states. And so we would do a comedy show,

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Speaker 1: have a have a provider on at the end to

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Speaker 1: talk about what was at stake locally, and then get

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Speaker 1: people to sign up to help because people didn't have

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Speaker 1: access to contractors in many of the places we were going,

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Speaker 1: you know, like we would go out and do landscaping

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Speaker 1: work when we were on tour because we were just

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Speaker 1: trying to help out wherever we could. And in the

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Speaker 1: course of that, the nice folks at the National Abortion

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Speaker 1: Federation reached out to us and we're like, we're a

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Speaker 1: little concerned about you putting providers on stage. Maybe we

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Speaker 1: should talk about your security plan. So they they were

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Speaker 1: out with us the first two years, and UM, and

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Speaker 1: we're giving me information about people we needed to watch

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Speaker 1: out for. So I got way more involved in creating

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Speaker 1: these security plans around our shows and our tours, and

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Speaker 1: UM started doing a lot of my own research on

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Speaker 1: anti abortion extremists because as we started talking to more

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Speaker 1: people that clinic escorts in front of the clinics, we

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Speaker 1: were getting information about not just leadership, but the people

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Speaker 1: on the ground where they were the most afraid of.

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Speaker 1: So then I was like, I wish I could just

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Speaker 1: put all this into something where I could look something

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Speaker 1: up via ZIP code and be able to tell who

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Speaker 1: I need to watch out for in a particular area

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Speaker 1: that didn't really exist, so UM, there was just a

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Speaker 1: whisper network of escorts. And then the leadership research that

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Speaker 1: NAP was doing, and so I started consoliding all my

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Speaker 1: research into a database for all of us to be

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Speaker 1: able to use and track incidents and organizations and bad

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Speaker 1: actors all over the country. I mean, that's that's extremely important,

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Speaker 1: but also extremely cool. UM. It is that you brought

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Speaker 1: up right at the start of your what you were

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Speaker 1: saying that there was a shooting at the Knoxville clinic.

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Speaker 1: There was a scare at the at the Knoxville Clinic

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Speaker 1: UM on Monday, and there was a there was an

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Speaker 1: arson at the Plan Parenthood in Knoxville this past New

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Speaker 1: Year's Eve. UM, and that same clinic, that same Plan

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Speaker 1: Parenthood that was burned down on New Year's Eve actually

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Speaker 1: had its front door shot out about a year earlier.

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Speaker 1: And uh, because this this is one of the more

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Speaker 1: frustrating cases. If you look this up, you can see

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Speaker 1: that like the fire department has said it was an arson. UM,

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Speaker 1: the a t F is investigating, the FBI is investigating.

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Speaker 1: They both get given the kind of boilerplate statements they've

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Speaker 1: given those instances, you don't see a lot from the

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Speaker 1: local police. I'm curious if you have anything to say

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Speaker 1: about like the degree to which the local police have

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Speaker 1: been you full in responding to this. Well, I don't

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Speaker 1: work with the local police at all. Um. I you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a TV person that got into uh doing extremists research.

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Speaker 1: I'm an editor and that I sort information right, So

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Speaker 1: like that made sense to me, but law enforcement doesn't

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Speaker 1: really take me too seriously. Um. But the people on

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Speaker 1: the ground have a lot of thoughts about who it

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Speaker 1: could be. Right, there are known people in the Knoxville

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Speaker 1: area who have caused all sorts of problems. There was

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Speaker 1: another arson at a different community center there too, UM,

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Speaker 1: and several white supremacists were arrested after protesting a Black

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Speaker 1: Lives Matter UH event maybe two years ago. And so

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Speaker 1: there's here's the thing. There's information about the Knoxville fire

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Speaker 1: that went out on telegram with an order of nine

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Speaker 1: angles Nazi claiming credit for it. And how hard can

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Speaker 1: it be to find a pagan Naxi in Knoxville? You

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Speaker 1: go to a goth club and be like, who's hit

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Speaker 1: you in the face here? You know? So, Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: feel like there are hindrances to the investigation. UM, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of the a lot of the activists on

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Speaker 1: the ground have good leads that are not being followed. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I guess that's probably the most direct thing that can

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Speaker 1: be said about it. What so to the extent that like,

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Speaker 1: there's seemingly not a lot in a lot of these

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Speaker 1: states that is going to be done preemptively by law enforcement. UM.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to like actually tracing out the threats. Uh,

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Speaker 1: how much do you feel like you have a chance

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Speaker 1: to actually stop them from carrying out an action, and

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Speaker 1: how much of it do you feel is just like

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Speaker 1: we need to be documenting this for for when it happens.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're already getting early warning about events. Um,

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Speaker 1: we're already because we tracked the people who there are

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Speaker 1: a number of groups that create the same kind of

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Speaker 1: actions that are either invasions or blockades at various clinics,

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Speaker 1: and people who have been organizing around this for decades,

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Speaker 1: right so in tracking them and starting to put the

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Speaker 1: pieces together, we're already getting early warning about where they're

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Speaker 1: headed about who needs to be alerted. You know, there

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Speaker 1: have been at this point three incidents just like I'm

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Speaker 1: working with a group of volunteers. These are all people

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Speaker 1: who either escort at clinics or part of a part

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Speaker 1: of advocacy orgs that you know, are not getting paid

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Speaker 1: to do intel, but they they're invested in the cause,

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Speaker 1: and so they just follow this stuff on the regular

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Speaker 1: and we're all in touch with each other, and all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden it's like, oh, you know, this person

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Speaker 1: who's been a part of twelve other blockades in the

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Speaker 1: last three years, has been seeing going on a tour

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Speaker 1: and said, the next three stops, he's going to let's

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Speaker 1: tell all the clinics in the neighborhood what's happening, and

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Speaker 1: they can be a little bit better prepared. And that's

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, honestly, because the abortion movement is

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Speaker 1: not super supported by law enforcement largely, um, it seemed

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Speaker 1: like a necessary thing for everybody to start keeping their

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Speaker 1: own records for their own safety. And that's really how

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Speaker 1: all this came together. Now, it's interesting to me that

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Speaker 1: you you brought up one of kind of the leads

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Speaker 1: suspects I guess you might say for the attack on

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Speaker 1: the Knoxville clinic was an O nine A dude, I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering what kind of the threats you're seeing. Obviously there's

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Speaker 1: decades of attacks on abortion access providers, including a lot

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Speaker 1: of fatal attacks, assassinations, acid attacks, numerous bombings and attempted bombings.

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Speaker 1: How has the character of who is making the threats

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Speaker 1: and who you see as threats started to change over

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Speaker 1: the recent years. I mean, the only and a thing

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Speaker 1: is a big yeah. That's that's weird. You know, we've

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Speaker 1: been following the same Christian nationalists for years and largely

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Speaker 1: they have the same playbook, they make a few changes

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Speaker 1: to it. A lot of them are older. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's lock in blocks or invasions. There's a few Catholics

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Speaker 1: who get really aggressive and like shove their way into stuff.

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Speaker 1: But it's not. Um, it hasn't been big surprises until recently,

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Speaker 1: and and a lot of the time in the past,

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Speaker 1: even when there was extreme violence happening amongst these people,

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Speaker 1: it was still sort of tied back to Christian identity stuff.

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Speaker 1: And now we're really starting to see it branching out.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, I blame I blame a few things. One,

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Speaker 1: just the Internet in general, but also the pandemic kind

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Speaker 1: of galvanized extremists across a lot of spheres, and um,

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Speaker 1: you started seeing a lot of Christian identity people that

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Speaker 1: weren't neces sarily militia people starting to mangle with militia people.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, militia people starting to mingle with

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Speaker 1: white suprise like over white supremacists, and um, so now

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Speaker 1: there's this cross breeding that's happening where like I mean,

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Speaker 1: the Gropers are a great example of just like this

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Speaker 1: weird amaulgam of things that didn't exist in the same

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Speaker 1: sphere before and now they're their own movement. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: can't tell you how much I hate that. Like other

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Speaker 1: people who who aren't weirdos who spend all of their

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Speaker 1: time on Nazi telegram know what gropers are now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's extremely frustrating. It's the worst thing in the world. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One of the weird things about doing this type of

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Speaker 1: research for years is seeing like on YouTube like thumbnails

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Speaker 1: by like Stephen Colbert talking about like wacky like nonsense

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Speaker 1: that I've known about for years and him talking about

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Speaker 1: it like like it's this big new thing. They're always like,

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Speaker 1: oh wow, the the little tiny corner of the Internet

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Speaker 1: I was just watching and staring at now is like

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Speaker 1: it's something that isn't like a regular lives political lexicon,

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Speaker 1: and that's like horrible. Yeah, brogan posting about the Kali

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Speaker 1: you guy, you know, Yeah that was That was a

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Speaker 1: hard drinking night for me. That was a hard drinking

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Speaker 1: night for me. And it's so hard to explain to

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Speaker 1: people why it's so bad. You're like, it's just so

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Speaker 1: once back in the twenties, there was this lady named

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Speaker 1: Savitri Devy. Now, yeah, it's it's it's really troubling because um,

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Speaker 1: it's making its way into traditional Christian identity stuff, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: evangelical stuff, quiverful stuff is now starting to cross over

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Speaker 1: way more aggressively with militias stuff, and and with like

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Speaker 1: over white supremacist you know now see stuff. It's such

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Speaker 1: a problem because and this is something in Berto Echo,

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Speaker 1: you know, noted a long time ago, but like fascism

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Speaker 1: is deeply syncretic, right, and we're that's what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about right now, is its ability. It's like a Catamari.

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Speaker 1: I refer back to that game a lot because it

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Speaker 1: does just keep picking things up, and um, we don't

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Speaker 1: really do that as much on like everyone from like

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Speaker 1: the center left to like weirdo anarchists and and and whatnot.

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Speaker 1: Like everyone's got their own little box, right, and there's

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Speaker 1: some interplay, but for the most part, people on the

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Speaker 1: left really like making boxes and people on the right.

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Speaker 1: It's just one big ball pit where everybody's smearing their

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Speaker 1: diseases and snot around And it's not great now. And

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Speaker 1: I mean, we need to figure out some sort of

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Speaker 1: solidarity because like even with the abortion protests that are

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Speaker 1: happening this week, we're already seeing people co opting things

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Speaker 1: and turning it in really destructive directions. Um, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, the entire cult of Boba back and you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean I'm actually worried about that as at this

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Speaker 1: point it feels like a legit astroturp. It doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: like they're fighting with the actual abortion providers and saying that,

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Speaker 1: you know that, like abortion funds are a problem. It's

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Speaker 1: like those are the people actually walking to walk and

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Speaker 1: doing anything about this. What are you doing besides showing

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Speaker 1: up in bloody pants and picking fights with cops, Like yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's this. You know. One of the more uplifting stories

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Speaker 1: that's come out recently is that in France, um, the

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Speaker 1: left is doing a popular front again in order to

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Speaker 1: kind of rest control of the government from mcrown. Will

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Speaker 1: see how it works, right, This is just something that's

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Speaker 1: kind of been announced, and but this is something like that.

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Speaker 1: This has happened a few times in the past in

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Speaker 1: different formulations, and I do kind of it would be

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Speaker 1: nice to see a broad popular front in favor of

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Speaker 1: abortion access on a very blunt level, but that would

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Speaker 1: involve people not just getting on board with trying to

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Speaker 1: wrest control from the right back electorally, but people supporting

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Speaker 1: a legalism, a lot of people are going to have

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Speaker 1: to do things that are not legal in order to

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Speaker 1: maintain access to reproductive health care. You know, there's the

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Speaker 1: other side of it is like hardline anarchists will have

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Speaker 1: to realize that working with libs is occasionally useful um

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Speaker 1: and using them as body shields sometimes can can let

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Speaker 1: you do more illegalist type practice. So there's there's both

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Speaker 1: in terms of like people who are really dogmatic on

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Speaker 1: the left being like, okay, there's types. There's certain times

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Speaker 1: where this type of this this intersectionalism can be really useful,

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Speaker 1: and then people who are less radical having to be

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Speaker 1: okay with more radical tactics happening. I mean, my biggest

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Speaker 1: fear right now is the mass criminalization event that's about

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Speaker 1: to happen. Right you know, no matter what, people's pregnancies

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Speaker 1: are going to be criminalized in various forms. If you

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Speaker 1: have a miscarriage, it's going to be criminalized. You're going

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Speaker 1: to have to be more cautious about how you use

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Speaker 1: your phone and what you say in the emergency room,

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Speaker 1: and you know, what you say to people in your

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Speaker 1: own family. And I don't think that most people on

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Speaker 1: our side are prepared to have that level of caution

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Speaker 1: or divorce themselves from technology and the way that kind

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Speaker 1: of needs to happen for people to stay safe. I'm

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Speaker 1: also worried that like, as a movement, um, we're not

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Speaker 1: really identifying the fact that it's all about bodily autonomy,

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Speaker 1: and so that means everybody trying to access trance health

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Speaker 1: care is as much or more so at risk. And um,

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Speaker 1: you know, and we have so much to learn from

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Speaker 1: the sex work industry about all of this, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: so much of what is happening now was built on

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Speaker 1: like the permissiveness of what people accepted under FOSTA and SESTA. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know that's how all of us got

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Speaker 1: de prioritized and stupid algorithms in the first place. And

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden weren't allowed to put

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Speaker 1: ads out for like legitimate healthcare services. And keeping ourselves

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Speaker 1: in boxes is really doing everybody a disservice. Everybody that's

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Speaker 1: been criminalized, everybody who just trying to exist is at

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Speaker 1: risk right now. Is in this together? Yeah, it's um.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's that famous quote from who was a

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Speaker 1: minister of some sort during you know, the Weimar years

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Speaker 1: about first they came for you know, YadA YadA, YadA, um,

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Speaker 1: And it is like it's always true with fascists, But

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that people ever spot it while it's happening, right,

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Speaker 1: because there's there's very few groups that mainstream America has

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Speaker 1: less inherent sympathy for than sex workers. And the reality

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Speaker 1: is that they were testing a lot of this out

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Speaker 1: on those people because they are marginalized. And I guess

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Speaker 1: one of the things I hope we'll see and that

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Speaker 1: might have some positive developments is that there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of sex workers out there with a lot of

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Speaker 1: opset tips that they can give other people. Now, um,

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Speaker 1: it would be dope if you know there were folks

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Speaker 1: like setting up clinics and stuff in that, because I

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Speaker 1: think there's a lot of information that does need to

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Speaker 1: get shared with folks who are not used to thinking

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Speaker 1: about any of the stuff they're doing is illegal. I've

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Speaker 1: been seeing stuff on you know, Facebook, among kind of

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Speaker 1: friends of mine who are more middle of the road

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Speaker 1: and family members who are pretty much centrist politically, where

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Speaker 1: they're talking about like, Hey, if you need to go

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Speaker 1: on a camping trip in another state, I'll take you

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Speaker 1: one year camping trip, and it's like I get it,

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Speaker 1: Like it's great to express solidarity, but will you feel

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Speaker 1: that way when it's actually a felony and people are

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Speaker 1: getting twenty years sentences for doing it, right, Like, because

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Speaker 1: that's where we're headed, you know. Yeah, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: people need to get more serious about moving their data

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Speaker 1: out of the country altogether, you know, like thinking about

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Speaker 1: what can be subpoena. Yeah. The folks at Hacking and

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Speaker 1: Hustling are doing really amazing work to spread sort of

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Speaker 1: uh sex work and sex work adjacent upset knowledge to

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Speaker 1: other communities too, Like they're amazing. Um, that's great. I

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Speaker 1: was not aware of what they were doing. Um, would

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Speaker 1: you mind giving like a little brief overview of what

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Speaker 1: that is? Try to reach out to them, But I've

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Speaker 1: only been in a couple of sessions with them, but

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Speaker 1: they're they're generally just sharing information about like tightening up

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Speaker 1: your digital footprint and also being conscious about how having

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Speaker 1: multiple like if you have to have a clandistine identity online,

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Speaker 1: how you can keep that from leaking over into any

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Speaker 1: of your other digital identities. Right. It's it's and I

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Speaker 1: mean it's a really important distinction because even if you

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Speaker 1: have something like a SOCC account on something like Facebook.

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Speaker 1: Based on how you set it up and what other

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Speaker 1: accounts that's connected to and who your friend. In that process,

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Speaker 1: it can very easily find its way back to you

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Speaker 1: and the people connected to you. So how do streams separate? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean whenever somebody angers this podcast, we have Garrison

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Speaker 1: tracked them down. It's very easy. Yeah, that is that

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Speaker 1: is that is true. I have a whole whole folder

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Speaker 1: of people dropping their kids off at school. That's right,

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Speaker 1: So you know, keep your eye out, Hello Fresh, don't

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Speaker 1: screw with us again. Or that one reviewer that said

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Speaker 1: that there was the woman on the podcast who was annoying.

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Speaker 1: I know who you are. I was able to I

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Speaker 1: was able to track back via your Apple account. Just one.

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Speaker 1: Just somebody tried to request access to one of my

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Speaker 1: folders that's connected to We had a tenure sixth document

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Speaker 1: where we had identified a bunch of people, and so

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Speaker 1: I just linked it to you know, Google Drive things

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Speaker 1: so that press people could get to stuff. Somebody just

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Speaker 1: out of nowhere trying to access one of them the

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Speaker 1: other day and requested permission. I'm just like, all I

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Speaker 1: had to do is look up your name in the

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Speaker 1: word abortion, like, come on and try a little harder. Um,

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Speaker 1: So cat, I'm wondering number one for people who are

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Speaker 1: like pissed and feeling helpless, there are things that folks

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Speaker 1: can do to help, assuming you live in a state

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Speaker 1: that there's anything at all around, because like a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who are hundreds of files away from any

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Speaker 1: kind of clinic. But if you're not, I know there

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Speaker 1: are ways people going to help. Do you have any

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Speaker 1: kind of pieces of advice for folks interested in being

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Speaker 1: of use? There are so many things, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: right now, I think the biggest thing that the movement

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Speaker 1: needs more than anything is abortion funds and practical support

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Speaker 1: funds really need financial help because they are paying to

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Speaker 1: move people around as night as needed to get them care, right,

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Speaker 1: So the money thing is always the obvious. But um,

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Speaker 1: We're actually having an event on July sev that is

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Speaker 1: sort of an orientation day for new people coming to

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Speaker 1: the movement who want to volunteer and don't know where.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to cover things like, I you become

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Speaker 1: a clinic escort, what it means to volunteer on like

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Speaker 1: an abortion fund or practical support hotline, um, how you

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Speaker 1: can get involved in lobbying groups, how you can get

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Speaker 1: involved in direct action groups and sort of pre vetting

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Speaker 1: people and then getting them out to the organizations that

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Speaker 1: actually have capacity to take on volunteers right now, because

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Speaker 1: a lot of what's happening, like we already saw it

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Speaker 1: in Texas where people really wanted to volunteer to help

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Speaker 1: in Texas after SPA came down, but they were doing

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Speaker 1: things like calling the Abortion Fund hotline to try and

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Speaker 1: get to people and it's like, no, you can't clog

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Speaker 1: up the hotline. That doesn't help anybody. So we're trying

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Speaker 1: to take some of the lift off of the organs

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Speaker 1: that are already overtaxed that their people, give them some

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Speaker 1: background information, give them a better idea of what the

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Speaker 1: landscape is in the movement, and then make the connections

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Speaker 1: to organizations that have the capacity to take them on.

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Speaker 1: So it's called Operations Save Abortion UM and we're gonna

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Speaker 1: do a live dream and house parties all over the country.

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Speaker 1: Awesome people are either watching the streams we're doing or

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Speaker 1: having their own local people to talk about how people

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Speaker 1: can get active locally in more direct ways. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: there's stuff like being an escort, which is is something

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Speaker 1: I've been learning a little bit more about recently. UM.

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Speaker 1: I guess one of the things I'm interested in is like,

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Speaker 1: uh from a perspective of actually like keeping folks safe. Um,

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Speaker 1: is that something that you feel has like a lot

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Speaker 1: of value or is that something that yeah, Um, and

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Speaker 1: is that like people would want to like look at.

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Speaker 1: Are there kind of resources for for getting involved with that?

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Speaker 1: There are? Clinic escorting is a little tricky right now

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Speaker 1: because there's a whole lot of clinics that don't know

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Speaker 1: if they're going to be open in eight weeks. So

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Speaker 1: right now, well that's all shaking out. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: you already have an established relationship with your local clinic,

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Speaker 1: definitely check in with them. UM. Clinics in states that

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Speaker 1: are going to see a surge, um, Pennsylvania, Illinois, New York,

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Speaker 1: I mean really anywhere that's still going to have abortion

429
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: after the twenty states fall, the entire West coast, uh,

430
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: New Mexico, right, Uh, Minnesota, they are all going to

431
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: need escorts. UM. Which clinic escorting is walking a person

432
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: from their car to the clinic door past protesters. Um.

433
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: It's generally I would say clinics are non engagement clinics.

434
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: So doing this means that you're there for the patient.

435
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: You're not there to get in a protesters sphace. Some

436
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:40,360
Speaker 1: clinics have enough of a protest presence, like UM Clinics

437
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: in Charlotte Clinics in Jackson, Mississippi, where they have they

438
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: split it up and they have people that are there

439
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: for the patients and people that are there to distract

440
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: protesters and sort of pull them away from the door,

441
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: you know, just get them a little bit removed so

442
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: that they can get patients past them. This is a

443
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: little bit less pleasant to a question, but you know,

444
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: I've done for a different cause a lot of the

445
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: same research where you're like spending time in these dark

446
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: corners of the Internet making notes of people and threats

447
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: being made, and um, I remember the horrible feeling of

448
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: like having a specific kind of thing that hadn't quite

449
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: happened before that I was sure was going to happen,

450
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: and then the fucking thing happens. Um, are there particular

451
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: things you are worried about in especially like once this

452
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 1: comes through like that, that are kind of on your horizon,

453
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: Like is there stuff that that people need to be

454
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: kind of preparing for in terms of like an escalation

455
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: in direct action against clinics. Absolutely, I mean we're already

456
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: seeing increased threats against clinics UM. This this bomb threat

457
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: the other day was a test balloon, right, But there

458
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 1: are organizations like POW who are actively aggressively invading clinics

459
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: on the regular and doing things like stealing product of

460
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 1: conception Fetle remains right and parading them out to the

461
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: public and naming doctors UM in an effort to get

462
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: them hurt. Right, it's it's stochastic terrorism. They're not they

463
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: are not going to be the ones to pull the trigger.

464
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: They are just putting it out there so that somebody

465
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: else does the dirty work for them. And so many

466
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: people are guilty of that. Right. The church at Plant

467
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: Parenthood is another good example. And they've had you know,

468
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: they've had a long presence and spoken um. They moved

469
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: to Knoxville, Tennessee, they've set up church plants in Birmingham,

470
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: and they've they've been throughout um Oregon and and in

471
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: Oregon they were hiring the Crow Boys as their security,

472
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: which eventually, unsurprisingly turned into a big fight when counter

473
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: protesters showed up, the police showed up, tear guessed everybody,

474
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: it's like, how is what? How is this church to?

475
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: You know, like, what is anybody trying to get out

476
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: of this? And and so there's a lot of people

477
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: who have been putting it out there for a long

478
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: time that there's all this other ring language of calling

479
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: people demons because it makes them easier to kill. There's

480
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: going to be clinic violence. I mean, there's going to

481
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 1: be more clinic violence. I should say. All of this

482
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: is violent. It's violent to have people out there screaming

483
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: at you and calling you a horror with a giant

484
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: sign of fetus, you know parts and then but I

485
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: mean they're really waiting for somebody to like more buildings

486
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: on fire or shoot somebody, and it's going to happen. Yeah,

487
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: Well does anyone else have anything to get into here?

488
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: On that happy note that happy think. It's just it's

489
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: not going to be like actual Nazi extremists that do

490
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: a lot of these attacks either, I think, especially with

491
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: it of being especially if if like if rov Wood

492
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: does get fully taken away, that will justify pretty violent

493
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: action in the minds of like most regular Christians. Even

494
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: when I grew up in like a pretty evangelical uh,

495
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: type of community. Those types of attacks against planned parenthood

496
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: were almost that like there was the there was the

497
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,959
Speaker 1: overall feeling that they were like celebrated, and people who

498
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: would do it would be lauded it as like biblical heroes,

499
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: um for for like for like just our sending a

500
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: building like that. That was very much the sense that

501
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: I got when I was a kid, Like I I

502
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: remember thinking thinking those thoughts, like, oh, that's what like

503
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: a good people do. Like that's like people who are

504
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: brave will go and burn down an abortion clinic. They

505
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: were openly celebrated. You know, the Army of God would

506
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: have the White Rose banquet to raise money by auctioning

507
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: off the personal effects of people who had bombed clinics

508
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: and shot doctors. And you see a lot of that

509
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: mirrored now in things like the Saints Calendar, right, and

510
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: and so you see you see neo Nazis and other

511
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: white supremacists promoting the Saints Calendar and then directing people

512
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: to the Army of God website. And then you see

513
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: Christian nationalists finding accelerationist handbooks and having that knowledge now, right,

514
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: and so they can have the knowledge and loosely collaborate

515
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: without ever having to say, oh, I'm a part of

516
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: you know Front or the Prowboys or whatever. Like, they

517
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: won't see themselves as extremists. They'll see themselves as like

518
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: regular Christians. They'll see them as regular Conservatives. And what

519
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: they're doing is like is like sanctioned by God and

520
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: it's like good, righteous, holy work. Um. So I think

521
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: that is definitely something to keep your eye on because

522
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: it's not all going to be like skull mask wearing

523
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: people doing bomb threats. It's going to be like regular,

524
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: like regular conservative Christians who are who are like been

525
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: on this words tracked the past the past few decades.

526
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: Most of the people that we track are are not

527
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: part openly part of extremist group well not openly part

528
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: of like known militant extremists, right, but um, a lot

529
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: of them are hold office. You know, there is Derek

530
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: Evans was in West Virginia. You've got um John Jacob

531
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: in Indiana, like the whole Oklahoma contingent, like Abolish Human

532
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: Abortion has really just become a lobbying group that's trying

533
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: to get people in office wherever they can. There's I mean,

534
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: they've gotten really strategic about getting people into smaller um

535
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: legislative roles so that they have more power to push

536
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: things and and so that they look more respectable. Yeah,

537
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: and it's that leads kind of to another point, which

538
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: is that when you get right down to it, once

539
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: the ruling comes through finally, as it looks like it will,

540
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: the vast majority of violence that's going to be done

541
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: to abortion providers and too people seeking abortions into people

542
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: supporting them, is going to be done by police. Like

543
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: that's the that's the eventual end game here. Yeah, And

544
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: that's that's the thing I'm the most afraid of, right

545
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: because it's so much easier to turn somebody in than

546
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: it is to actually attack a person physically or a

547
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: building even, And so that's what it's going to be.

548
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: It's going to be people calling in their neighbors, calling

549
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: in something from the hospital, turning in their grandkids. You know, well,

550
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: is there anything right now that's making you optimistic? Cat,

551
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: Not to put you on the spot, No, No, it's okay.

552
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: I thought about that a lot. I mean, honestly, the

553
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: people working in this are so dedicated to helping people

554
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: that that always gives me hope. And I genuinely feel

555
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: like there's enough of us that have plans. Um. You know,

556
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: even if even if not everybody's on board with the

557
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: same stuff, there are enough people really doing the hard

558
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: work and being pragmatic about what's happening and not just

559
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: cowing under the pressure of it that are energized by

560
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: helping people that I think there will always be people helping.

561
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: They might not always be visible, but they're there and

562
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: it's just going to be harder to find them. So yeah, Um, well,

563
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: thank you so much. UM. Do you have anything else

564
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: you'd like to plug before we kind of roll out here?

565
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: Any place people could donations are volunteer if they're into that. Oh,

566
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you can always donate to Abortion Access Front

567
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: where a front dot org and um, there's a volunteer

568
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,959
Speaker 1: form there. But also if you want to participate in

569
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: our event on July sevent you can go to Operations

570
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: Save Abortion dot com. Uh, and there's a registration form

571
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: there to get involved in the event. Awesome. UM, well,

572
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Kat Green. You are amazing and

573
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 1: what you do is incredibly important. Um. And to everybody else, UM,

574
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: go find some way to help or you know, at

575
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: least uh, it's easy to pee in a water balloon

576
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: and sorry. Okay, well, let's that it happened here work, Yes, nice,

577
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: nice introducing you got it? Yeah, this is this is

578
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: it could happen here at the podcast where it has happened.

579
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 1: Your host Christopher Wong with me. We have like seve

580
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: and teen thousand people. We've got Garrison, yep, got We've

581
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 1: got We've got Sophie, I've got Robert allegedly, We've got

582
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: we've got Sharine, the first time friend of the pod,

583
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: Sharene Hello, teammate. And we have returning I think, yes, yeah, returning.

584
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: Well I'm trying, I'm trying to think, but yeah, yeah, yes,

585
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: and creator of our website that I love. I'm so glad.

586
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you like it. Love. Yeah, And we

587
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: we are gathered here today to talk about something that sucks,

588
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: which is, uh, the elite draft of Samuel Alito's decision

589
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: to overturn Rope Wade. It's now we're all mostly angry

590
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: that somebody dared to leak a draft and upset the

591
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: sanctity of the Supreme Courts deliberation in process. Right right,

592
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: That's definitely the thing that's been keeping me awake at night. Yeah. Yeah,

593
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: A bunch of elderly ghouls who refused to give up

594
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: their grip on power can't deliberate in privacy. What does

595
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: this world come to? M Yes, it's been me all along.

596
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: How can I trust the Supreme Corps if not? Everything

597
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: happens in secret all of the time, always my in.

598
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: On a serious note, I would like to start this

599
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: by stating my primary attitude towards the Supreme Court is

600
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: that more stairways should be greased. Um anyway, that's my contrabation.

601
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: We have been big proponents of horse loop for years, years, years,

602
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: and this stands continues. I think horse loop could solve

603
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: a lot of problems, could so many. So I do

604
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: think it is especially cross that like there's the whole

605
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,479
Speaker 1: side of media people who are making the story out

606
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: that oh no, look at this leak. That is the

607
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: worst thing to happen in human history. I can't believe

608
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: this got leaked, and that is like a pretty dominant

609
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: narrative going on for like over half the country, even

610
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: like even on like CNN. That was like the first thing.

611
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 1: It's pretty funny too because like the original road decision

612
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: also got leaked. I had the text, but like the

613
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 1: way it was the ruined verdict was gonna go also

614
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: got leaked. It's like, okay, it's like this is actually

615
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: consistent about this. It's clearly, like I I get why

616
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: the Republicans who are doing it right, because it's a

617
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: way number one that they can pretend to be victims.

618
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people comparing it to like the

619
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: January sixth and ship. Um, yeah, sorry, it's the comparison

620
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: to be made. There is not that the leak happened, no,

621
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: and like should it's like it leaked, Yeah, okay, how

622
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: about the fact that the information instide leak is dangerous

623
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 1: and it's going to cause a bunch of people today. Also,

624
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: there should be more leaks of government things all the time.

625
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: That's actually yeah, yeah, yeah. The government should not be

626
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: allowed to keep secrets Like I'm sorry, we don't. They're

627
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: really they're called civil servants and they're doing everything in secret,

628
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: like we're supposed to know. I mean, in the perfect world,

629
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: they're spying on us. We have no privacy. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

630
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: Like it's only fair. It's also like you, I mean,

631
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: I guess maybe we'll eventually find out who did it,

632
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: but like it's also we don't have to assume that

633
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: it was a progressive that did it. For example, Like

634
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: I think the conservatives have even more of a motive

635
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 1: to release it because they're like mobilizing. There are people

636
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: to agree and be like, yes, do we do we

637
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: want to do the weird Screme Court inside baseball ship?

638
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: Like okay, so the weird inside baseball ship is So

639
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: this is a draft decision, right, this decision Like hasn't

640
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 1: that this is this is not the law of the

641
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: land yet. And the thing with draft decisions that they change,

642
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: and the thing that's happening here is there's this weird split.

643
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: There's there's like a three to to split on like

644
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 1: what actually, yeah, that that makes up seven? Right, I'm

645
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: like what actually? Because like the five conservative justices like

646
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 1: don't like row, but there's a mean, particularly with like Roberts,

647
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: there's a there's kind of a split on like how

648
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: far they want to take it. And so part of

649
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: what could be going on here is like so this

650
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: the version of decision that got leaked is like this

651
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: is basically the most extreme thing they could possibly do.

652
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 1: I Arranging impacts on how we view personal rights. Uh,

653
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's they can talk about it later

654
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: and like this is you know, this is the thing.

655
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: Like like the nerd like Supreme Court watchers like didn't

656
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: think that like this would be the thing, right, They

657
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: didn't think they would just straight up overturned Row. They

658
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 1: thought they would ship at it a little bit first,

659
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: like go after Casey. But like no, no, no, that

660
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: they're just they're just straight up going after Row. And

661
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 1: part of what could be the strategy here is like

662
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,720
Speaker 1: a lot of Okay, so the liberals on the Supreme

663
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 1: Court like have been effectless and powerless for an enormous

664
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: amount of time, and a lot of what they spend

665
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: their time doing is trying to like get one or

666
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: two sentences changed to be slightly less bad. And this

667
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: could be an attempt to get the other conservative justice

668
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: is to like force them to rally around. Aldo's like

669
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 1: unbelievably hard and there were there were thing that that's

670
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: worth noting about this is that like Aldo, Aldo is

671
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: like I don't know, I mean cavn Cavanaugh. Okay. So

672
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: for for a very long time, Aldo was like broadly

673
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: considered by the legal community to be the worst legal

674
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: mind in the Supreme Court. Like he's a clown. He's

675
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: like he's he's legal reasoning is is really bad. Like

676
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: even even by this, like you know, and this this

677
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: has changed with and become a Barrett and cav It

678
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: all to it to some extent, but like this is

679
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: not this is not a guy. This is not like

680
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: a subtle like a subtle legal mind. This is like

681
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: this is like a bull in a china shop who

682
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: you throw out when you need to just like hit

683
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: something with a hammer, right, and so you know, like yeah,

684
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: part part of what the strategy seems to be is

685
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: to try to try to coerce the other justices who

686
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: are like like like Roberts, who was like slightly less

687
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: fanatical than Aldo, is to try to get them to

688
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: rally around this like incredibly maximalist, hardlined not only going

689
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: after Row, but going after like a whole bunch of

690
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 1: other stuff that we will get to in a second. Yeah.

691
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: So that that's that's the that's the sort of Supreme

692
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: Court insight baseball ship. That is possibly part of what's

693
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: going on with the league. But yeah, I mean, to

694
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: be honest, I think that's whatever is going on in

695
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: the league. The primary topics of interest to most people

696
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,479
Speaker 1: are going to be number one, the degree to which

697
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: the rights trying to use this to distract from what

698
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: they're actually doing. Uh. And more to the point, the

699
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 1: concerted the fact like this is what we're actually dealing

700
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: with here is like the culmination of forty is years

701
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: of pretty relentless um. I mixed it pretty relentless electoralism

702
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 1: um married to a very effective direct action terrorism campaign

703
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: that has netted the right a tremendous uh win here. Yeah,

704
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: I mean like and I feel like this it's a crisis,

705
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: but it hasn't been treated as a crisis. And like

706
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: when fucking Democrats campaign, this is like such an urgent matter,

707
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: and as soon as they're elected, it's suddenly like not

708
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: as urgent. Like look at fucking Biden. He ran on

709
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: literally caught like codifying it. He ran with that promise

710
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: and obviously that didn't happen. Um. And then there's also,

711
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: like to Robert's point from earlier, these justices are just

712
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,879
Speaker 1: like ancient and don't give up their power. And I mean,

713
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: there's no use in pointing fingers, even though I like

714
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: to do it. So like RBG, for example, like if

715
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: she had just retired at her fucking time, maybe there

716
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: would be like one more justice that could fucking help

717
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: us out. But there's a lot. I mean, she's got

718
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: her share of the blame. There's also the fact that

719
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: we've had I think six justices appointed by Republicans in

720
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: the last thirty years, and only one of those Republicans

721
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: actually won the popular vote, um, which was the goal.

722
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: This is not just One of the most important things

723
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: to understand about the anti abortion movement is that it's

724
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: not center like it didn't start and it's not centered

725
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: around abortion. It is centered around reversing all social progress

726
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: of the last century. And the inciting incident was the

727
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 1: integration of schools. Right. This all started over Brown versus

728
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: the Board of Education. Abortion was just the thing they

729
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: realized it was easier to rally people around than segregation. Um.

730
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 1: And that's what we're dealing with right now. So that

731
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: the fundamentally this has always been an democratic movement. This

732
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 1: has always been about codifying into law and locking into

733
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: place for essentially forever, a minority rule in which Christian

734
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: extremists would get to govern the much larger chunk of

735
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: the country that does not believe in those sort of things. Yeah,

736
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: and I think that's also worth mentioning anytime someone talks

737
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: about this, because the media does, like the media just

738
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: runs pr for the anti abortion movement, which is that

739
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: this is unbelievably unpopular, like staggering lee unpopular. Nobody wants this.

740
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: This is like, this is this is less like you

741
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: can pick it like this is less popular than invading

742
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 1: fantasy countries that don't exist. Like if if if you

743
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: like this, this is this is significantly less popular, then uh,

744
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: then the burning police stations down. We have the pulling

745
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: data on that. It's like less popular than the lightning

746
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: police stations on fire, Like it is unbelievably staggering lye

747
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: unpopular people. No one wants this except for a a

748
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 1: very very very well organized, very politically connected, very wealthy,

749
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: and very powerful clique of Christian fascists. Yeah, well, the

750
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: laws never reflect what the most of the population wants though, right,

751
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: like exactly like the popular vote for example, as you

752
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. So it's like I think there was a

753
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: poll I was reading about this yesterday in June of

754
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: last year. Percent of people thought abortions should be legal

755
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: for for for any reason, like there's no doesn't have

756
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: to be like any kind of thing. So it's like

757
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: it's and there's so many polls that also just like

758
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: prove that most people don't want this hard and fast rule.

759
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, the both parties i think utilize it to

760
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 1: rally together people to vote, but obviously for different causes. Yeah,

761
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 1: And like the first reaction from from from Democrats was, hey,

762
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: donate to our campaign. It's like, oh my god, honey,

763
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: read the room. You have all the power and quotes

764
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: right now and you've done nothing. It's like vote blue.

765
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: Dare dare saying that, and you get attacked by other

766
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: Democrats by being like a radical leftist ruining movement because

767
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: like it's not their faults. And I'm like, you, you've

768
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: had power multiple times in my thirty years of life

769
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 1: where you could have done it easily. Yeah, like like

770
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: and this is this is one of the things that like, okay,

771
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: like this stuff doesn't work on me because I remember

772
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: when Obama had a two thirds majority in the sty Yeah,

773
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: they had a filibusterproof majority in the Senate, had the House,

774
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: and not only did he not do this, Obama by

775
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: by two ten, Obama is codifying anti is codifying anti

776
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 1: abortion stuff of codifying the High Amendment. So yeah, it's

777
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: like no, like, and this is the this is the

778
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: thing with the Democrats rates like, this is the best

779
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: thing that's happened to the Democrats since Trump left office.

780
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: Like the Democratic Party they love this. This is the best.

781
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: This is the best thing they could possibly happen to them,

782
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: because now what they can do is they can run on,

783
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: we're going to bring abortion back every single election cycle,

784
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: and they never do it right because everything because they

785
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 1: they'll they'll never like the stuff that they run on,

786
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: Like yeah, they'll, they'll they'll like they will even even

787
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: if they got another somehow by like magic, if they

788
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: somehow got their six vote majority, they find a way

789
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: to not do it because this, this is this is

790
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: a permanent fundraising thing for them, and they're they're desperately

791
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: in need of money all the time always. So if

792
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: you take that away, like during my brief stint in

793
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: the California Democratic Party, fundraising was always a big deal.

794
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: And they didn't want to divest from fossil fueling cops

795
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: because then where would the money come from. You can't

796
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: take campaigning on row away from them because then like

797
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: they don't fucking know how to activate grassroots organizers. It

798
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: scares the ship out of them, so they will be

799
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 1: fucked if they lose this, which is why nothing has happened.

800
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: Speaking speaking of money, do you know who else wants

801
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: your money? That's that's right. The products and services that

802
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:50,720
Speaker 1: support this podcast, that's right. Uh. You know certain may

803
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: make you infertile. So that's not doing this today. We

804
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: are back, um. I think it's so we'll be We'll

805
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: be talking about Supreme Court abortion stuff for a lot

806
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 1: in the coming months. Um. We'll be talking about very

807
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: different facets of it. Um. Different like mutual aid, like

808
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: in ways of going about kind of filling in the

809
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: gaps which are going to become larger, um, and a

810
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: whole bunch of other stuff relating to like right wing

811
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: terrorism against abortion clinics and all that kind of stuff. Um.

812
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 1: The other interesting aspect about this that I want to

813
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: kind of briefly talk about is that with the specific

814
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 1: phrasing of the le talcument is it it threatens a

815
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: whole like sect of personal rights, not just abortion rights, um,

816
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 1: and could have far raging impacts, uh, in terms of

817
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: like privacy rights, in terms of possibly even backtracking on

818
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: stuff like gay marriage, and a whole bunch of other things.

819
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,240
Speaker 1: It's like it's obviously the abortion angle itself is pretty

820
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: massive and it affects you know, half half the population

821
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: should uh, But there's a whole lot of other stuff

822
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 1: that isn't that that indicates this, like this trajectory towards

823
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: this type of like right wing fundamentalist of Christian like

824
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: Christian fascist effort to hack away at all the things

825
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: that they deem degenerate or things that they deem is undesirable. Well,

826
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: I mean, the goal is to make America Christian nations

827
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: so Jesus can come back and rule it. And you

828
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: can't do that if you know, people are gay, or

829
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: people are allowed to be on birth control, or people

830
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 1: are allowed to marry outside of their race, or go

831
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: to school with people who don't look like that, Like

832
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 1: I did read Jesus to say all of those things. Yeah,

833
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: it's it's definitely in the Bible somewhere, if you if

834
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 1: you do like that poetry style where you blot out

835
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 1: some of the words to make other words, which is mary. Yes,

836
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 1: the thing we gotta get into that, I think is

837
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,439
Speaker 1: the primary question people have right is like beyond sort

838
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: of the doom scrolling of of all of this and

839
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 1: all of the fear about like what's going to happen

840
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: to oh berge Vell and Lawrence v. Kansas and all

841
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: this stuff. What are they going to go for next?

842
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 1: Is like what actually will work to oppose this ship? Right? Um,

843
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: we at the moment, I have not seen and I

844
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: don't believe there's any objective signs that Democratic Party is

845
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: going to be particularly useful in stymying any of this bullshit. Um,

846
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: Cinema and Mansion have already come out against removing the filibuster.

847
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: Mansion has come out against voting at all in order

848
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: to codify abortion access into into law in any kind

849
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: of federal way. Um. And yeah, I get the sense

850
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: that for most of them it's a big fundraising opportunity.

851
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,439
Speaker 1: Now we do have. That's not to say it's all

852
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 1: bad news, because it is kind of there's a possibility

853
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: that this will have a significant impact on the mid terms. Um.

854
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: We got one kind signed that where the race in

855
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 1: Michigan that just ended, the special district or the special

856
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,479
Speaker 1: election where um, for the first time in quite a while,

857
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: a district that Trump carried by like sixteen points went

858
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: to a Democrat. Uh. Now, the Republican that they were

859
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: running against was the guy who said that women should

860
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,479
Speaker 1: lie back and enjoy it if they were getting raped. Uh,

861
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: So this is one of those like, I don't know

862
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: how much we should see that as particularly emblematic of

863
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: how things are going to more broadly go, but this

864
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 1: does have there's an activation potential, right because outside of

865
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: the fact that the Democratic Party, you know, and as

866
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: a whole is feckless and primarily method of fundraising for

867
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: rich people. Um, actual Democratic voters are rightfully horrified about

868
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: what's going on, and this has there's a potential here

869
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: to activate a lot of people and get them organized

870
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: in a productive way. So I think that has to

871
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 1: be on our minds. And so there's a mix of

872
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: I don't want to discount electoralism, but I think that

873
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: in the immediate term one of the things that people

874
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: are going to have to do is provide actual material

875
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: ways for folks to get access to the healthcare that's

876
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: going to be increasingly denied to them. Now. Um, we

877
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: get a couple of episodes earlier in the year with

878
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: Michael Lawfer of the voor Thieves Vinegar collective He's just

879
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: gone viral, and a Vice article about the hacked abortion

880
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: pills that that they've been guiding people in how to

881
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: make UM. I think stuff like that is really useful.

882
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: When I started posting about this online, someone pointed out

883
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: that UM pro abortion activists in Germany recently flew drones

884
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: across the border to Poland to drop off MIFA prostall

885
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:43,280
Speaker 1: like abortion pills which were picked up by people in Poland. UM,

886
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,839
Speaker 1: and there's there's some there's going to be increasing kind

887
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: of organizing around that stuff, like the Jain Collective. UM

888
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: people are already organizing and from like national organizations to

889
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,240
Speaker 1: increase access and states where it's going to remain legal

890
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: for people out of state. So I think that's going

891
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: to be hugely importan UM. Does anyone else have sort

892
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 1: of ideas on kind of what what things people can

893
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: do when are going to be doing to push back

894
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 1: against this, because I do think it's got to be twofold.

895
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 1: It's got to be both, you know, pushing back in

896
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: sort of a legal sense and also pushing back by

897
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: direct action in order to ensure that people still have

898
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: access to this stuff. I don't know, I don't have

899
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: faith in electoral electoral anything. Uh So I really think

900
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 1: like if there's if it's possible to find your own

901
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 1: community and like just almost like with I don't know,

902
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,720
Speaker 1: just mobilizing your actual peers versus like trying to trust

903
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,399
Speaker 1: anyone with power to get anything done. Because maybe I'm

904
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: a pestimist. Maybe I'm just a pessimist. But what you

905
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: said earlier about the person she was running against, what

906
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: I heard is that that person was still running and

907
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: people like he was still the number two, you know,

908
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: And I think on the other side there, their side

909
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: is also going to rally against stuff like didn't Oklahoma

910
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: just passed like the most restricted and ever and just

911
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 1: yesterday at time of recording. Yeah, so in this law,

912
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: women can be punished up to ten years in prison

913
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 1: for gonna get abortion and like in pair, like just

914
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: for some perspective, rapists in Oklahoma get five years. So

915
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: it's like stuff like that is happening in all these states,

916
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: and because these states people with with less resources maybe

917
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 1: don't have their ability to travel so far, I think

918
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: really mobilizing communities a little bit more uh maybe just

919
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: more effective in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, we have

920
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: to mobilize communities, but you also can't. It can't just

921
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: end at we're going to try to like provide these

922
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: people with an option to get out of the state

923
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: or get access where they are, like clandestinely. If it's

924
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: limited to that, they're going to push to make all

925
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 1: this more illegal federally, and they're just going to keep

926
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 1: throwing people in prison and using the police as the

927
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: enforcement arm of this stuff. There does have to be

928
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 1: there has to be a broader counter you know, I'm

929
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: thinking back to like, and I'm not talking about like

930
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 1: picking a dude to vote for. I'm talking about like

931
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:13,240
Speaker 1: in Mexico, right when they were talking about UM making

932
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: abortion illegal, activists attempted to light the Capitol building on

933
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: fire UM and like that that that kind of like

934
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: there has to be there has to be a broader

935
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 1: two thirds of the country thinks this is bullshit. There

936
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: has to be a way of getting those people organized

937
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 1: in a way beyond dealing with the acute problems caused

938
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: by this. Like yeah, and I don't entirely know what

939
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: that looks like, but no, that makes sense that you're

940
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: right and makes sense. Well, and I think I think

941
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: that there have been signs that it's started, Like so,

942
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: I mean, there there's obviously, like there were protests like

943
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 1: they've been protests, like literally since the thing came out.

944
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: They were especially Yeah. Also, I mean I think I

945
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 1: think part of like this sort of like yeah, what

946
00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 1: did you see when you can see this sort of

947
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 1: like I don't know, you can see the way that

948
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: people haven't I guess fully internalized the fact that the

949
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: stage is just trying to do this to them, and

950
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: that like you know, if you look at the barricades

951
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: that were put up, right, like you could just push

952
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 1: those over, like and then there you have you had

953
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 1: a bunch of people who are extremely angry and they

954
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 1: sort of just sat there and did nothing right and

955
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: like this is this is the kind of thing that like,

956
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, if you look at what happened in l A.

957
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 1: There there is a lot of protest in l A.

958
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: And like the department, like Homeland Security was on the

959
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,280
Speaker 1: street beating people, and I think if if if there's

960
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: like okay, So, one thing it's important to keep in

961
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: mind is that this still again this this the ruling,

962
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,280
Speaker 1: the draft of the ruling is not the actual ruling.

963
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: Right there is still time right now in between when

964
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 1: this in between this leak and when this is actually decided,

965
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: there is still time to literally force the court to

966
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 1: not do this, so start greasing those stairwells people. Yes, well,

967
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 1: I think here's a few notes. Um. So one, I

968
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,760
Speaker 1: think it's it's going to be used to encourage action

969
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 1: on all sides. Uh, there's what it's gonna This is

970
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: going to be seen as a victory for the right,

971
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 1: and they're going to use this momentum to mobilize further, uh,

972
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 1: to to put more further antibortion stuff into law, and

973
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 1: to encourage people to take vigilante justice out on healthcare providers. Um.

974
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: The second thing is direct action for of trying to

975
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: alter the ruling before it happens. Like there is a

976
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: chance to do mass mobilization. Uh, there's a chance if

977
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: we frames if things are framed correctly, you can bring

978
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: a lot of liberals out and convince them and suggest

979
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,439
Speaker 1: to them that they can that they could do things

980
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: that they ordinarily maybe wouldn't do. Uh. There's that is

981
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 1: that is an entirely uh, entirely possible scenario. Just in

982
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: my in my episodes about the Atlanta Forest from a

983
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 1: few days ago, I discussed the shack method of protest. Now,

984
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: this this isn't this isn't this doesn't carry over one

985
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: to one because that is pretty focused on doing economic targeting.

986
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: But the whole idea of targeting people outside of like

987
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,920
Speaker 1: the political space is a key to that. Like people

988
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: people don't just do work in the Supreme Court. They

989
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: have actual everyday lives, and if you can uh surround

990
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: them in their everyday lives, that type of personal pressure

991
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: is way more affecting than just yelling at a government

992
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: buildings sometimes, um because if we can dissolve this like

993
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: safe political like space that people think that they think

994
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: they operated in, right, they assume that, oh, I'm I'm

995
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: I'm a court justice, I'm a judge. Everything that I

996
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 1: do happens in the courtroom. Right, I'm safe, I'm contained.

997
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 1: Everything is just in the contents of the courtroom. I

998
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 1: don't get to experience consequences for my actions outside the courtroom,

999
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: which isn't true because obviously the people, all of us,

1000
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: do experience those consequences in the real world all the time,

1001
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: just the people in power don't have to. So instead,

1002
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: if we can put pressure on people when they're going

1003
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 1: about their every day lives in their hanging banners in

1004
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 1: their backyard, doing other things. Horse but again, very useful. Um,

1005
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: that is a that is a way to do types

1006
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: of protests that we have not seen as much, but

1007
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: I think is now is probably the time to start

1008
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 1: doing that, right. I mean we we saw we saw

1009
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 1: stuff after the murder of George Floyd with people surrounding

1010
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 1: the house of Derek Chauvin, which police were very angry

1011
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: about that. There is an indication that hey, this the

1012
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 1: state doesn't like it when this happens. Um, it's not.

1013
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: It's not specifically more legal to stand in the street

1014
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: of a residential neighborhood. So no, and it's you know,

1015
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 1: a lot of protests so far has focused on court buildings,

1016
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: many of which are federal, and those provide a lot

1017
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 1: of benefits to shall we say, the defender, including the

1018
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: fact that they're already well set up for surveillance. They're

1019
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 1: generally fortified. Uh, they have a pretty short logistic tail

1020
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 1: to where the state is keeping its weaponry and its

1021
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: troops as opposed to just kind of fucking with people

1022
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: in their lives, which is a lot harder for those

1023
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 1: kind of militarized responses that lead to large groups of

1024
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 1: your friends getting arrested or beat up by Feds. I

1025
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 1: think also like, yeah, the tendency to go after like

1026
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 1: legal buildings is missing the point of where the actual

1027
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 1: power is. Like this is the thing which January sixth

1028
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: too is like yeah, even if like yeah, they took

1029
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: over the capital and nothing happens. And the reason that

1030
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 1: like nothing could happen is because it's just a building, right,

1031
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: like the the the the actual political system existed dependently

1032
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: of it, and you have to hit the things that

1033
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: the system actually cares about, and so like that supports

1034
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: that's roads, that's border crossings, that's things like I why

1035
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: am I now suddenly vacation homes? Yeah, but like like

1036
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 1: but also I mean like okay, like you know, if

1037
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: if if if there was actually like a way to

1038
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: stop this, one of the few things that could actually

1039
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: do it would be a large would be something like

1040
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: a large skale teacher strike or a thing I've talked

1041
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: about before that is happening this summer is for example,

1042
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: all the the long Showman contract in uh Oakland is

1043
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: coming up, right, and like those are the kinds of

1044
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 1: things like if you can actually start shutting down large

1045
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 1: sections of the U. S economy, the Supreme Court of

1046
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:16,040
Speaker 1: Political Actors, they will have to respond to this, and

1047
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 1: you can essentially, like like you can you can blackmail

1048
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 1: them into into into doing the thing that they should

1049
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: be doing. You can apply targeted pressure economically and personally.

1050
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 1: And that's the type of protest that I think it

1051
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 1: would be interesting to see where that leads us. They

1052
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 1: need to not they like the consequence for both the

1053
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 1: political actors who are carrying this out and the people

1054
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: who support them needs to be that they don't get

1055
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 1: to live a normal life um that they are, that

1056
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 1: they suffer consequences for hurting people. And that means a

1057
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 1: lot of things, but among other things, that means that

1058
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: certain people shouldn't be going to the fucking grocery store

1059
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 1: without feeling the hatred, you know, And I think, I

1060
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 1: think be able to order delivery and feel secure that

1061
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:05,439
Speaker 1: what they're gonna eat isn't going to hurt them. Yeah,

1062
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 1: And I think also like one of the things that

1063
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 1: I remembering from that was actually really effective initially from

1064
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: the beginning of TRUP administration was the airport protests. And

1065
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 1: that's a place that like you wouldn't think you'd be

1066
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 1: able to really occupy because again, the amount of security

1067
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: there was enormous, but like if you have a lot

1068
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: of libs, you can. I remember, like I was, I

1069
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 1: was like standing in an airport terminal and there was

1070
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: a lot of riot cops attacking. Like everyone is like, oh,

1071
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna get attacked, but like there was just enough

1072
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 1: like everyone just sat down and there was enough libs

1073
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 1: with like their kids that the cops didn't attack. And

1074
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 1: that's that. That's a kind of thing that like potentially

1075
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 1: could be replicated and also could be useful given the

1076
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: fact that like sometimes cops have like an aversion to

1077
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: a like stuff that looks really really bad on TV.

1078
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: Not not always, but like, yeah, this is this is

1079
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 1: the thing that can happen. Is the thing that has

1080
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 1: happened inner like pretty recently. Yeah we can do again.

1081
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: I don't really trust footage of police brutality to change

1082
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,439
Speaker 1: things anymore. UM. I feel like we reached the peak

1083
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: of that, and at this point I think moving on

1084
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 1: to targeted pressure towards individuals that whole positions of power

1085
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:21,760
Speaker 1: and targeted pressure to the economy. Um. But speaking of

1086
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 1: speaking of targeted pressure the economy, a large protest at

1087
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 1: an airport that the police break up with tear gas

1088
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: does damage to the economy that the police are the

1089
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 1: ones causing um and like it's it's uh, it's one

1090
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 1: of those things. As we've stated, courthouse or whatever is

1091
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 1: just a building. People can not go into work and

1092
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:45,439
Speaker 1: do all of the fund up ship that they're doing

1093
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 1: on zoom um. An airport is not just a building,

1094
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 1: you know, And so a protest at an airport has

1095
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 1: some teeth that a protest at a courthouse doesn't. Necessarily,

1096
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 1: I do have one, like quick other thing it that

1097
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 1: I want to throw out as sort of a means

1098
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 1: of uh resistance or action. Is something that I was

1099
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 1: trained to do growing up. Part of the forest birth

1100
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 1: movement is co opting the language that the left uses,

1101
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: and I think something that we should do and something

1102
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: that we can all be doing right now is co

1103
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:26,800
Speaker 1: opting the language back. So when force birth advocates say

1104
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 1: their pro life, come back with how can you be

1105
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: pro life if you want someone to die by having

1106
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 1: a pregnancy, and like just sort of taking words and

1107
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 1: rhetoric that has traditionally been used to oppress us two

1108
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 1: reframe it and be like, no, actually, you're the one

1109
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 1: who's telling on yourself here, and you're the one who

1110
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 1: is forcing people literally to die in multiple ways. You

1111
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 1: cannot be pro life if support people who already exist

1112
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 1: dying and just sort of thinking about that a little bit.

1113
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 1: If you don't necessarily have the energy to go stage

1114
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 1: protest at the airport, yep, that is a great line

1115
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: to end on end on um. Everybody go out, and again,

1116
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,439
Speaker 1: you know, our sponsors are the Klein and Stupil Hip

1117
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:25,000
Speaker 1: Surgery Center in Washington, d C. So please do keep

1118
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 1: greasing those stairways. Everybody welcome to It could happen here,

1119
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 1: the podcast that's happening here right now, in your ears,

1120
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 1: it could happen here. I'm Robert evans Um. I'm I'm

1121
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 1: not with any of my normal UH co hosts today

1122
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: because as fuck them now, because I'm elsewhere in the

1123
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: world right now, hanging out with someone you might remember

1124
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:08,000
Speaker 1: from a special episode we recently did on Molotov Cocktails,

1125
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: journalist James Stout. Hi. Everyone, Yeah, I'm here with Robert

1126
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: in a tiny hotel room and we've just worken up

1127
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:18,439
Speaker 1: we had to do some podcasting. Yeah, we're not We're

1128
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 1: not here for any specific purpose. We just decided let's

1129
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:25,200
Speaker 1: run a hotel room cast some pods, you know, hang out. Um, James,

1130
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 1: how do you feel about the border? Negatively? Broadly speaking,

1131
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 1: I think the border is a tool that we used

1132
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 1: to harm and kill the most marginalized people in the world.

1133
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of borne out by stats as well.

1134
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 1: So not a big not a big border guy. Yeah.

1135
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,720
Speaker 1: And you and I recently spent a decent amount of

1136
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 1: time on the Texas Mexico chunk of the border, specifically

1137
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 1: near McAllen, Texas, hanging out at a butterfly sanctuary that

1138
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 1: people can learn some things about if they Google will

1139
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 1: be coming out that those episodes will be dropping in

1140
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 1: the not too distant future. Um. But you live on

1141
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 1: the San Diego side of the order, UM, which, if

1142
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 1: people don't know, San Diego, California is basically in Mexico. Um,

1143
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 1: you can you can hop over across for like lunch

1144
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 1: and stuff if you really want to and don't mind

1145
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 1: dealing with CBP. UM. And Yeah, so I you've done

1146
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:16,880
Speaker 1: a lot of reporting around the border and about kind

1147
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 1: of the system of violence that it represents. UM. I

1148
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 1: wanted to chat a little bit like about that, and

1149
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 1: I wanted to chat about some of the organizations that

1150
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 1: you've run into that are doing good work out there

1151
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 1: because there's a lot that needs to be done. Yeah, definitely,

1152
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 1: I think, Um, I think it's really important to like

1153
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 1: conceptualize what's happening at the border in terms of like

1154
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 1: the border is a tool for state violence, right, state

1155
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 1: violence against marginalized people, and like what the good group

1156
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 1: groups helping people on the boarder represent is like ways

1157
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 1: of us helping each other which are outside the networks

1158
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:50,200
Speaker 1: of us having power over each other. Right, So in

1159
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 1: the broader spectrum of like neutral aid of mutual support, like,

1160
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 1: I think they're really important to focus on rather than

1161
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 1: kind of so many people construct the border in their minds,

1162
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 1: Like you can if you go back on my Twitter,

1163
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: some guy just being like that is not the border.

1164
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 1: The border does not look like that. The border is

1165
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 1: barren and it's desert and it's full of people with

1166
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 1: guns and it's really not right. Like, so the border exists,

1167
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:12,680
Speaker 1: is like this mental construct a place where we can

1168
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: do like political theater, especially on the right. So people

1169
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 1: who are actually down there on the ground and understand it,

1170
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 1: I think it's it's vital to support them. Yeah. One

1171
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 1: of the more striking moments to me when we were

1172
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:26,599
Speaker 1: in McAllen was hanging out near this trunk of border

1173
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: fence that had been constructed on like by volunteers effectively. Um,

1174
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:33,719
Speaker 1: and it's this, it's it's it's what you would expect,

1175
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:37,240
Speaker 1: like the stereotype of the border. It's this huge military

1176
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:41,719
Speaker 1: industrial looking thing. The wildlife has been cleared from around

1177
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 1: it so that you can have this towering steel edifice.

1178
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 1: But then a hundred yards away across the rio is

1179
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:51,320
Speaker 1: the Mexican side of the border, and there's like a

1180
01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 1: couple of goat farms and like a little restaurant with

1181
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:56,720
Speaker 1: a little dock so people can like you know, take

1182
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 1: their little boats out and people are drinking and there's

1183
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:02,600
Speaker 1: party music laying and like it's it's nice. It's pastoral

1184
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:04,679
Speaker 1: and green. It was. It looked like a lovely place.

1185
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 1: It looked much nicer than hanging out by the giant

1186
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:09,759
Speaker 1: steel tower. Yeah. I found that all along the border actually,

1187
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 1: like we are side of the border looks like something

1188
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 1: from a Blade Runner or something like. It's this giant

1189
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:19,639
Speaker 1: dystopian steel construct with with people with guns, with watch towers,

1190
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:22,600
Speaker 1: and it's horrific, right, Like it cuts through some of

1191
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:26,160
Speaker 1: the most beautiful and important landscapes we have right through

1192
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:30,640
Speaker 1: the high desert, through this very fragile places, and like

1193
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 1: it's important I think people understand as well what the

1194
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 1: border wall looks like, right because you've probably seen a

1195
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:38,720
Speaker 1: photograph of giant ass wallum and that is part of it.

1196
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 1: But they got it the border wall ecosystem, and what

1197
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: that involves is the wall itself, sometimes a ditch, sometimes

1198
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 1: not a ditch, and then a road that's wide enough

1199
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 1: for two of the f one fifty raptors Border Patrol

1200
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 1: like to drive to pass each other, and then access

1201
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:58,559
Speaker 1: road to that, and then generally there's also an access

1202
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 1: road cut that allows construct vehicles to get to build

1203
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 1: all of that. So it's not just some spikes in

1204
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:08,599
Speaker 1: the desert. It's fucking destroying this beautiful part of both

1205
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,680
Speaker 1: of Mexico and the United States. Right now, before we

1206
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:15,439
Speaker 1: get into some of these organizations, I'm wondering, first off,

1207
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:18,439
Speaker 1: when did you start reporting on the US Mexico border

1208
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 1: and is there any kind of specific events that that

1209
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 1: you can recall that really kind of ignited your your

1210
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 1: interest in this particular like part of the United States,

1211
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 1: in this particular part of like our ongoing social conflict. Yeah, like,

1212
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 1: I've always been interested in borderlands, like academically and as

1213
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 1: part of my PhD UM. But I guess I've probably

1214
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:45,639
Speaker 1: about eight or nine years i've been reporting on the border.

1215
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,880
Speaker 1: The thing that really sort of took it from being

1216
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:51,960
Speaker 1: like a the border is sometimes I think I write

1217
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:53,519
Speaker 1: about I did a lot of outdoor writing about the

1218
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:55,200
Speaker 1: border to right. It was very interesting in getting more

1219
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 1: people to go outside in Baha, California. It's amazing and

1220
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 1: you should do it. But what really sort of I

1221
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:04,599
Speaker 1: guess made me be like Gulf funk, this is fucking horrible.

1222
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 1: U is quote unquote migrant caravan. Right. So I've been

1223
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:15,439
Speaker 1: down just just enjoying a weekend in Fettle further south

1224
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:18,360
Speaker 1: and but little further south of Tijuana and having a

1225
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 1: really good wine country there. So we've been checking out

1226
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:25,720
Speaker 1: these wine places and just enjoying ourselves. And we come

1227
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:29,280
Speaker 1: back and then these people are in um what's called

1228
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:33,040
Speaker 1: the Benito Kuaida's Sports Complex. It's just a baseball field

1229
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 1: and it's raining and it's November, and it looks like

1230
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:38,640
Speaker 1: a fucking Battle of the Somme in there. You know,

1231
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 1: it's mud. They're little children, And I've been in these

1232
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:45,040
Speaker 1: situations before. I've I've seen situations with displaced people before,

1233
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 1: but there was something that just broke my heart about like,

1234
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 1: so obviously we're gonna go in, right, We're gonna see

1235
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:53,760
Speaker 1: what's going on. We're going to see what we can

1236
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:58,160
Speaker 1: do to help. And they're little kids. I remember there

1237
01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 1: was this little girl and it's one still makes me

1238
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:02,719
Speaker 1: really sad. But she would find me. There were thousands

1239
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:05,479
Speaker 1: of people there. Every single time I came, she would

1240
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:10,439
Speaker 1: find me. It found me the first day and she

1241
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 1: would like we talked for a little bit about what

1242
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 1: she was doing, and then she was standing like halfway

1243
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,400
Speaker 1: up her little shins in mud and she didn't have

1244
01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:21,000
Speaker 1: any works like shower or be clean. You know. She

1245
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:22,840
Speaker 1: was living in a sort of tarp shelter. And it

1246
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 1: just fucking broke my heart. So he said she used

1247
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 1: to plack my hair a lot so and carry her around,

1248
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,680
Speaker 1: And that was just like this realization for me, like

1249
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 1: of how cruel this thing is. Shortly thereafter, of course,

1250
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:38,559
Speaker 1: the police stood in the parking lot of the Tommy

1251
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:41,760
Speaker 1: Hill Figure discount store in order to fire tear gas.

1252
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:45,400
Speaker 1: It's some of the most marginalized and desperate people certainly

1253
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 1: in that part of the world, right, and just that

1254
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 1: it's it's a scene that like, yeah, that would if

1255
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:51,880
Speaker 1: you put that in a movie, you would be like

1256
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:54,240
Speaker 1: it was a little bit heavy handed, right, having them

1257
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 1: shoot from the tummy hill finger at the desperate migrants.

1258
01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:00,160
Speaker 1: That's a little bit heavy Yeah, yeah, it's it's just

1259
01:13:00,240 --> 01:13:02,919
Speaker 1: dis advanced fucking parody of where we are at a society.

1260
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:05,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, the the DHS helicopter is taking off from

1261
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 1: the Tommy Hill Figure store to fire tear grass grenades

1262
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 1: at the children who just want a safe place to sleep.

1263
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 1: I had a moment like that in a protest where

1264
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 1: the Portland Police. We were in um uh North Portland, um,

1265
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:21,040
Speaker 1: which is like in a neighborhood that was like one

1266
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 1: of the fairly few like black neighborhoods in Portland, and

1267
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 1: the cops, you know, when apeship and started firing impact

1268
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:31,360
Speaker 1: munitions down Martin Luther King Boulevard. And I didn't catch

1269
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 1: myself at first, and I was like, the cops are

1270
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:39,000
Speaker 1: now shooting down Martin Luther. Yeah, you've been in and

1271
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:42,599
Speaker 1: around like you you live there obviously, so who are like,

1272
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:44,439
Speaker 1: who are some of the folks that you've come across

1273
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:46,680
Speaker 1: that are doing the most to actually help there, and

1274
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 1: what kind of help, like it is necessary because I

1275
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 1: feel like one of the one of the things I

1276
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 1: think is the primary shortcoming of it could happen. Here

1277
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 1: is a show so far? Is that the way Garrison

1278
01:13:57,080 --> 01:13:58,599
Speaker 1: and I phrase it is like a lot of our

1279
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:01,439
Speaker 1: episodes are here's a problem them goodbye. Right, We're like,

1280
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:06,160
Speaker 1: here's the thing that's bad. Off we go. So what

1281
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 1: I guess the two chief questions I think they need

1282
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:10,960
Speaker 1: to be answered because I'm hoping pretty much everyone here

1283
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:13,800
Speaker 1: is on board with the border is a nightmare. Uh,

1284
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:15,640
Speaker 1: something's got to be done. What are the kind of

1285
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:19,720
Speaker 1: things that can actually materially improve people's lives who are

1286
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:23,360
Speaker 1: being affected by this border ecosystem? And then who are

1287
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:26,400
Speaker 1: the motherfucker's who are actually out there trying to unfunck

1288
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:29,760
Speaker 1: things that to the extent that unfucking is doable here. Yeah,

1289
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:34,920
Speaker 1: So I think like just to further like make people sad. First, like,

1290
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:37,880
Speaker 1: if you look up de Colonial Atlas Southern Border, you

1291
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 1: can find this map of where migrants die when they're

1292
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:42,720
Speaker 1: coming to the United States, right, and were often it's

1293
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:45,320
Speaker 1: constructed in the news media, is like it's dangerous crossing Mexico.

1294
01:14:45,439 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 1: It is. It's it's dangerous coming across the Darien Gap,

1295
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 1: sure it is. But the vast bulk of people die

1296
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:53,200
Speaker 1: within a few miles of our southern border, right. And

1297
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:56,439
Speaker 1: that's because, especially now with the way we've constructed the

1298
01:14:56,439 --> 01:15:01,120
Speaker 1: border wall. Right before the action, Donald Trump in a

1299
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:03,639
Speaker 1: debate made claims about how much border wall he'd built.

1300
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 1: Like everything else, he was full of shit. So they

1301
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 1: just tried to build as much as they could between

1302
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:10,360
Speaker 1: them and the election. So they just skip the hard parts,

1303
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:12,960
Speaker 1: skip them out in to skip the valleys, and that

1304
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:16,160
Speaker 1: often forces people to cross in the most arduous terrain, right,

1305
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:19,880
Speaker 1: So that that's increased the amount of people dying. So

1306
01:15:20,800 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 1: we can look broadly at like two categories of support, right,

1307
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,439
Speaker 1: which are like, um, I guess like direct aid and

1308
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:30,040
Speaker 1: then legal aid. So um, on the legal aid side,

1309
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:33,519
Speaker 1: the guys who guys and girls and other people who

1310
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:37,400
Speaker 1: who have been really really helpful to the other side

1311
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:41,240
Speaker 1: right there there, Legal aid group. They were very very

1312
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:44,960
Speaker 1: cool during the during the microt care event, like they

1313
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: and I realized that something about a loaded phrase, right,

1314
01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:48,160
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to use a word that people will

1315
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:52,639
Speaker 1: understand they were there constantly helping people with good course letters.

1316
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:55,040
Speaker 1: They were there filing legal briefs on their behalf. As

1317
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,639
Speaker 1: a result of that, many of them were illegally surveiled

1318
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:01,759
Speaker 1: by the Department of Homeland Security. We had the phones taken,

1319
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:05,959
Speaker 1: the communications trace, their movements traced, their network trace, etcetera.

1320
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 1: They are wonderful people, right like, they do amazing things

1321
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:14,639
Speaker 1: with helping people get legal aid um. And then you've

1322
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:18,400
Speaker 1: got the people who are helping people while they cross right,

1323
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 1: and there are a number of these mutual a groups.

1324
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:23,839
Speaker 1: If you're in a certain region there at the border,

1325
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:26,080
Speaker 1: there is probably someone near you. I'm no expert on

1326
01:16:26,120 --> 01:16:28,240
Speaker 1: all of them, but you can look at like no

1327
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 1: Massa Weds in Arizona Armadio's believe. I think they, I

1328
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 1: don't know. They operate also in Texas, but certainly in

1329
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:40,000
Speaker 1: that California Arizona area. You can look at border angels.

1330
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 1: A border angels are probably the biggest, most public facing one,

1331
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 1: and they are fantastic right They're out there making sure

1332
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:47,759
Speaker 1: that there are cashes of water for people who are crossing,

1333
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:50,240
Speaker 1: making sure that when it's cold at night there are

1334
01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:53,559
Speaker 1: warm clothes, and when it's hot there are clothes suitable

1335
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:56,519
Speaker 1: for that weather, right, maybe in a new backpack, canned food.

1336
01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 1: They're like doing the active stuff that stops people or dying. Um,

1337
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:04,360
Speaker 1: And that's invaluable, right, And it's also important in terms

1338
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 1: of showing that like they'll often right things I've seen

1339
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,439
Speaker 1: like like you're welcome, right, welcome to this country or whatever.

1340
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 1: It's showing that most of us don't agree with this

1341
01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:17,360
Speaker 1: dehumanizing brutalization of migrants that state is doing on our behalf,

1342
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:20,479
Speaker 1: and so showing that welcome it's very important. There are

1343
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 1: lots of indigenous groups. Um. I did ask if I

1344
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:24,840
Speaker 1: could name them, but that they didn't get back to me,

1345
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:26,679
Speaker 1: so I don't want to. But like there are groups

1346
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:28,840
Speaker 1: within the toronaud M nation and their groups within the

1347
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:32,479
Speaker 1: Kumi nation. I'm sure there are groups within other tribes

1348
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:36,679
Speaker 1: whom the border crossed, right, who lived in this area

1349
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 1: long before it was a border, who are also out

1350
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:42,000
Speaker 1: there helping people. There are also individuals helping people out

1351
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:46,639
Speaker 1: on their property. Right. If you if you can't find

1352
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:47,840
Speaker 1: how to donate to one of those groups, you can

1353
01:17:47,880 --> 01:17:50,200
Speaker 1: reach out to me. That's fine. But yeah, I think

1354
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:52,479
Speaker 1: the work they're doing is invaluable both in terms of

1355
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:55,880
Speaker 1: like showing people that they are welcome and in terms

1356
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:58,439
Speaker 1: of saving lives. Right, more and more people die at

1357
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 1: the border every year, especially Lee with things like Title

1358
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:06,840
Speaker 1: forty two, which we can get into with MPP sure.

1359
01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 1: So Title forty two, it's a public it's part of

1360
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:12,040
Speaker 1: a public health law. It's very antiquated. I think it

1361
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:15,000
Speaker 1: was last used in the nineteen thirties. The idea behind

1362
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:18,000
Speaker 1: it was to stop people with tuberculosis coming into the

1363
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:22,840
Speaker 1: United States and if they have and um um, if

1364
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 1: they have an infectious to transmissible disease I think it's called,

1365
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:28,840
Speaker 1: then they can be immediately sent back without processing. Right.

1366
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 1: This was part of a whole suite of things that

1367
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 1: they used to do to laborers coming north. Right. They

1368
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:37,559
Speaker 1: would also spray them with all kinds of insecticides, which

1369
01:18:37,600 --> 01:18:42,080
Speaker 1: obviously is not good for the health. So Title fully two,

1370
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:44,479
Speaker 1: the idea being, you know, you get if you present

1371
01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:46,639
Speaker 1: to me at the border and I'm a border patrol

1372
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:51,520
Speaker 1: guy and you're like coughing up a lung and obviously tuberculous, cuberculous,

1373
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:56,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, you have to tubercule, yeah, tuberculastic, then

1374
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:58,720
Speaker 1: I will send you back and just be like, no,

1375
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:01,519
Speaker 1: Robert off until you're healthy. You're going to infect everyone

1376
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 1: else here, especially if I detain you. Now, what it's

1377
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:07,920
Speaker 1: being used to do with COVID nineteen is to not

1378
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:10,719
Speaker 1: process migrants right, to do what's called catch and release,

1379
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:14,000
Speaker 1: just bump them south and let them go. What that

1380
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:18,400
Speaker 1: means is that these so normally you could cross surrender

1381
01:19:18,479 --> 01:19:21,559
Speaker 1: to a CBP AG and that's another miss miss understanding. Right,

1382
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 1: a lot of people will want to surrender right there

1383
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:27,000
Speaker 1: that they they have no intention of not being processed.

1384
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:30,280
Speaker 1: For certain countries is something called a TPS, which I'll

1385
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:32,519
Speaker 1: explain in the second, which which there will be no

1386
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:35,800
Speaker 1: reason for them not to be processed. So these people

1387
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:38,400
Speaker 1: will cross, and now they could just get dumped on

1388
01:19:38,400 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 1: the other side, right, it doesn't matter if they are

1389
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:42,240
Speaker 1: a person who is pregnant, doesn't matter, if the elderly,

1390
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:44,200
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, if there medically compromised. A week, they can't

1391
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:48,160
Speaker 1: just get dumped. What this has meant is that people

1392
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:50,479
Speaker 1: who are helping them cross, right, people who maybe charge

1393
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:53,840
Speaker 1: your fee for helping them cross, are offering like crossings

1394
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:57,760
Speaker 1: without limits. You we'll just try again, try again, and

1395
01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:00,000
Speaker 1: it means, like I said before, because of the combination

1396
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:03,360
Speaker 1: this and then this, this hostile infrastructure that we're building, right,

1397
01:20:03,400 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 1: this border wall system, that people will try crossing in

1398
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:10,840
Speaker 1: more and more remote places. Right. That is when people

1399
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:13,840
Speaker 1: die crossing, is when they cry and cross in in

1400
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 1: places that are hotter, that are more arduous. Right, it

1401
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:20,120
Speaker 1: requires days of walking sometimes and like, and I've been

1402
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:22,080
Speaker 1: in that terrain. I spend a lot of my time

1403
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:24,599
Speaker 1: out there, and like for a long time it's been

1404
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:26,200
Speaker 1: more or less my job to be outside out there,

1405
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:29,200
Speaker 1: and it is hard. So if I imagine crossing with

1406
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 1: everything I need to start my new life and carrying

1407
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:34,320
Speaker 1: my child, it's very difficult for me. And I'm more

1408
01:20:34,360 --> 01:20:37,919
Speaker 1: accustomed to it than most, so it's it's very difficult

1409
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:40,160
Speaker 1: and forcing people to just kind of bounce back. Because

1410
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:44,479
Speaker 1: when we drop someone in Mexico, right, if they are Guatemalan, Honduran,

1411
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:50,640
Speaker 1: they don't have any network there, Right, it doesn't exactly help. Like, uh,

1412
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 1: like sometimes we like this construct that like the border

1413
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:58,719
Speaker 1: fuels crime, right, Like crime is like they talk about

1414
01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:02,080
Speaker 1: like like sometimes cartels is far too broadly used. Nearly

1415
01:21:02,120 --> 01:21:05,120
Speaker 1: always it's far too broadly used. But this idea that

1416
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 1: the board of funds like drug running an organization such

1417
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:11,960
Speaker 1: as that, Well, you don't help by dumping someone where

1418
01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:13,960
Speaker 1: they have no other means of making a living, right,

1419
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 1: where they're going to be very poor and now they

1420
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:18,280
Speaker 1: don't have any mate and I have anyone to go

1421
01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:20,960
Speaker 1: to to ask for help, write like, I don't blame

1422
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:22,719
Speaker 1: people for trying to find a way to do something

1423
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 1: so understandably, like if I don't think I think it's

1424
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:31,320
Speaker 1: largely a lie that that any significant number of people

1425
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:35,840
Speaker 1: sort of running drugs across the border are migrants or um.

1426
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 1: You know, I think that's that's largely a racist lie.

1427
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:42,639
Speaker 1: But leaving people dislocated there is a recipe for poverty,

1428
01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:47,360
Speaker 1: and I can't things like crime do happen more. I

1429
01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:49,240
Speaker 1: guess when people are poor and don't have any other options,

1430
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:52,720
Speaker 1: that makes sense if we go back to TPS really quickly,

1431
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:55,640
Speaker 1: because I think that's important to temporary protected status. Right,

1432
01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:59,920
Speaker 1: You'll see people on Twitter talking about TPS. Whether bids

1433
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:02,240
Speaker 1: only means is that they can't deport you back to

1434
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:06,160
Speaker 1: a country. So it took Biden an obscenely long time

1435
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:09,679
Speaker 1: to grant a TPS for the people from Ukraine. Right,

1436
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:16,320
Speaker 1: Five something people went into the deportation system between the

1437
01:22:16,479 --> 01:22:21,720
Speaker 1: time in like November December, when Biden's administration started being

1438
01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:23,760
Speaker 1: like there is going to be war in Ukraine and

1439
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 1: Russians are going to invade Ukraine, they were still actively

1440
01:22:27,080 --> 01:22:29,519
Speaker 1: in the process of sending people back to Ukraine at

1441
01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:31,479
Speaker 1: that time, and it wasn't until about a week into

1442
01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:34,800
Speaker 1: the shooting war that they said, Okay, Temporary protected DATUS,

1443
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:36,839
Speaker 1: we won't send you back. It exists for other countries,

1444
01:22:37,080 --> 01:22:41,920
Speaker 1: exists for Haiti, it exists for me and mar Burma. Right. Um.

1445
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:43,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if it exists for Syria or I

1446
01:22:43,960 --> 01:22:47,960
Speaker 1: think it does, but these countries where basically like, we

1447
01:22:48,040 --> 01:22:52,040
Speaker 1: won't send you back there. And TPS is very important,

1448
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:55,280
Speaker 1: right because it stops people being deported to places where

1449
01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:58,479
Speaker 1: they will die. And it's important to understand that, like

1450
01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:00,559
Speaker 1: you could have everything right into am, you're a sign

1451
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:03,920
Speaker 1: an application, and still be sent back. It's a cruel

1452
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:07,240
Speaker 1: and very impersonal system. So a TPS is important and

1453
01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 1: if you're into sort of advocating for laws, then it's

1454
01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:14,639
Speaker 1: an important thing to advocate for. I think yeah, Um,

1455
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:17,759
Speaker 1: in terms of more, I think that's important because we

1456
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:20,920
Speaker 1: we kind of the electoral side of things is not

1457
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:22,800
Speaker 1: does not tend to be our focus here, but it's

1458
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:24,720
Speaker 1: also not useless. Like the border is one of the

1459
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:28,680
Speaker 1: areas most clearly where you can see both how advocating

1460
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:31,639
Speaker 1: in that realm can immediately improve people's lives and also

1461
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:35,040
Speaker 1: how both sides of the political spectrum use the border

1462
01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:37,439
Speaker 1: as a weapon to hurt. Yeah, exactly. The board is

1463
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 1: definitely a stage for both sides political theater. Like look

1464
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:42,280
Speaker 1: at Joe Biden, right, he's coming in, he's signing this declaration.

1465
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:44,320
Speaker 1: On the first day, Remember the day he was inaugurated,

1466
01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:45,760
Speaker 1: I went out to the border wall just sat there

1467
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:49,519
Speaker 1: by myself and like wept because it's just this horrible,

1468
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:52,080
Speaker 1: ugly thing that's such a scar on the place that

1469
01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:56,960
Speaker 1: I love. And uh, he's done fun all right, and

1470
01:23:57,120 --> 01:23:59,600
Speaker 1: he's deporting more people than Trump and he's building his

1471
01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:01,320
Speaker 1: own by and barrier, which is the same thing with

1472
01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:03,760
Speaker 1: that an anti client plate. But yeah, like, even if

1473
01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:06,479
Speaker 1: you don't agree with the existence of laws and lawmakers, right,

1474
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:09,799
Speaker 1: this this concept that I like a lot, called normative anarchism.

1475
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:11,760
Speaker 1: I think it's Wolf, the guy who wrote it. But

1476
01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:15,040
Speaker 1: like we can move towards the state doing less cruelty

1477
01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:16,479
Speaker 1: and being a little more free, and that is a

1478
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 1: move in the right direction, even if it's not the

1479
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:20,840
Speaker 1: end goal. And I think the border is a place

1480
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:23,840
Speaker 1: where you can really make a difference like that, right,

1481
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:28,599
Speaker 1: Like some small changes in how things are done would

1482
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 1: reduce the cruelty to people who have done nothing wrong massively.

1483
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:34,599
Speaker 1: So I think it is an area where even those

1484
01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:37,000
Speaker 1: of us who might not be generally inclined to like

1485
01:24:37,040 --> 01:24:40,720
Speaker 1: electoral staff like you can I think I don't know

1486
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:42,840
Speaker 1: if you can make a distance because like so many

1487
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:45,320
Speaker 1: people in Milwaukee are watching Fox News and a fucking

1488
01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:48,640
Speaker 1: completely convinced that the border is just I don't know,

1489
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:52,160
Speaker 1: people with guns trying to smuggle children or whatever. But yeah,

1490
01:24:52,160 --> 01:24:54,800
Speaker 1: it's an area where small changes in policy make a

1491
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:57,599
Speaker 1: huge Title forty two right, not even a law, it's

1492
01:24:57,640 --> 01:24:59,640
Speaker 1: an executive or it's not even executive, or it's an

1493
01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:03,880
Speaker 1: interpret tation. Uh the war, right, most of that ship

1494
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:06,400
Speaker 1: wasn't built by Congress. It was built by executive orders.

1495
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:10,280
Speaker 1: So like that stuff, I think is a place where

1496
01:25:10,280 --> 01:25:13,759
Speaker 1: you can you can affect positive change for people now unfortunate.

1497
01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:15,160
Speaker 1: We've got to drive fucking wall. And I don't think

1498
01:25:15,160 --> 01:25:16,960
Speaker 1: it's coming down anytime soon. But it doesn't mean we

1499
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:19,840
Speaker 1: shouldn't actively try to make things kind of for people

1500
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:22,679
Speaker 1: coming here now. On the direct action side of things,

1501
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:25,559
Speaker 1: which I think more of our audience tends to support.

1502
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:29,240
Speaker 1: One of the most obvious things is just like setting

1503
01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:31,960
Speaker 1: out as you said, like drops of water, food equipment. Now,

1504
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:34,720
Speaker 1: that's kind of depending on where you are, can be

1505
01:25:34,800 --> 01:25:37,479
Speaker 1: shall always say complex from a legal standpoint. Can you

1506
01:25:37,479 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 1: talk to that a little bit, Yes, certainly. So. Like

1507
01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:43,000
Speaker 1: the obvious cases are one in Arizona, right, which eventually

1508
01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:48,320
Speaker 1: ended up the person was vindicated, but vindicated to around

1509
01:25:48,320 --> 01:25:52,000
Speaker 1: word but not didn't go to prison exactly. Yeah, yeah,

1510
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:55,679
Speaker 1: what he was doing was right from the start. But yeah,

1511
01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:57,640
Speaker 1: it can be complex, I think, especially if you're in

1512
01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:01,200
Speaker 1: some of these states which are like doing culture war,

1513
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:05,760
Speaker 1: right like Arizona in Texas. Yeah, the cruelty is kind

1514
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:08,800
Speaker 1: of the point. So if you are doing something to

1515
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:11,200
Speaker 1: alleviate that cruelty, making an example if you was very

1516
01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:13,320
Speaker 1: much in the interest of those cultural war politicians and

1517
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:16,559
Speaker 1: judges and other people, which is why it's important to

1518
01:26:16,560 --> 01:26:18,880
Speaker 1: do it with a mutual aid group, right, Like these

1519
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:23,160
Speaker 1: groups are not just like randos, They are extremely organized.

1520
01:26:23,200 --> 01:26:26,200
Speaker 1: I would also just caution that, like going out into

1521
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:29,080
Speaker 1: the desert on your own is extremely fucking dangerous. The

1522
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:31,320
Speaker 1: desert can kill you with heat and day. It can

1523
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:33,160
Speaker 1: kill you with the cold nights, sometimes on the same

1524
01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:36,680
Speaker 1: day and night. Right, this is a hard place. I'm

1525
01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:38,000
Speaker 1: not saying you shouldn't go out there. You should. It's

1526
01:26:38,040 --> 01:26:40,479
Speaker 1: it's an amazing place, but you should be careful. You

1527
01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:43,599
Speaker 1: should go with the group. So if you're living somewhere

1528
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 1: along the border, there is a group of people who

1529
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:49,640
Speaker 1: are doing this, they will understand what is legal and correct. Like,

1530
01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:52,000
Speaker 1: for instance, if you are not a citizen, if you're

1531
01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:54,920
Speaker 1: a Green card holder, you should probably not go down

1532
01:26:54,920 --> 01:26:56,800
Speaker 1: to the border with jugs of water. You should maybe

1533
01:26:56,800 --> 01:26:59,360
Speaker 1: do some fundraising, you should you should maybe do something else.

1534
01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:02,000
Speaker 1: And that's fine, right, You're still part of a system

1535
01:27:02,040 --> 01:27:06,240
Speaker 1: which is helping people. But yes, there have been some prosecutions.

1536
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:09,240
Speaker 1: I think in California there haven't been any to my

1537
01:27:09,320 --> 01:27:12,959
Speaker 1: knowledge for a while. Um. There is also some interesting

1538
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:16,880
Speaker 1: tech developments. One a few a long time ago, now

1539
01:27:17,360 --> 01:27:20,200
Speaker 1: called the trans Border Migrant Tool, which was mapping out

1540
01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:22,719
Speaker 1: like what at the time, we didn't have the border

1541
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 1: wall them, right, but like water cashier's locations of CDP checkpoints,

1542
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:28,080
Speaker 1: and then I guess it was using Google Maps to

1543
01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:33,200
Speaker 1: make roots, which it was created by a faculty member

1544
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:35,439
Speaker 1: who at time was at the University of California, who

1545
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:39,599
Speaker 1: faced pretty terrible career repercussions for doing it. But there

1546
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:41,080
Speaker 1: are things like that that people can do too, right,

1547
01:27:41,120 --> 01:27:43,719
Speaker 1: which you can do from your bedroom if that's your preference,

1548
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:46,080
Speaker 1: if that's how you prefer to help. But yeah, I

1549
01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:50,400
Speaker 1: would caution about just going out there. Always looked for groups, right,

1550
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:52,920
Speaker 1: there are people for whom this is their entire life

1551
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:57,040
Speaker 1: of activism. You can also I'm sure, I hope I'm

1552
01:27:57,040 --> 01:27:58,679
Speaker 1: not putting a bunch of like work on their plate.

1553
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:03,880
Speaker 1: But talked lad see what they suggest. Right Altro Lado

1554
01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:07,240
Speaker 1: the other side, that's this legal a group you can

1555
01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:09,439
Speaker 1: just call them. I'm sure that they they think They've

1556
01:28:09,439 --> 01:28:12,040
Speaker 1: been very helpful to me when I've been when I've

1557
01:28:12,040 --> 01:28:15,519
Speaker 1: needed help for people I'm working with. Talk to them

1558
01:28:15,520 --> 01:28:18,320
Speaker 1: about what is what is legal and sensible and what's not.

1559
01:28:18,360 --> 01:28:20,320
Speaker 1: Whether it's better to give your money or give your

1560
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:22,919
Speaker 1: time or what you can do. Give them the resources

1561
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:25,600
Speaker 1: available to you, I guess. And you can also just

1562
01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:28,080
Speaker 1: show kindness to refugees in your community too. That they're

1563
01:28:28,080 --> 01:28:32,400
Speaker 1: probably there, whether or not they're visible is a different question,

1564
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:34,840
Speaker 1: but that's you know, there are places where you can

1565
01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:38,320
Speaker 1: help people. Another one I should mention, actually just for

1566
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:41,360
Speaker 1: folks who are inclined to help in a different way

1567
01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:43,920
Speaker 1: I guess is people just feeding people. Like I really

1568
01:28:43,960 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 1: don't think you can ever blame someone for feeding hungry persons,

1569
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:48,760
Speaker 1: So food not bombs. Food not bombs are always cool,

1570
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:51,679
Speaker 1: right if if you want to do kindness without state

1571
01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:54,080
Speaker 1: food not bombs, there is one in your area. Look,

1572
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:57,920
Speaker 1: come up, um and World Central Kitchen, which is Jose

1573
01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:01,200
Speaker 1: Andres the chef. Yeahs in Ukraine and his guys just

1574
01:29:01,240 --> 01:29:03,560
Speaker 1: got Sheldon Ukraine. That's right. Yeah, yeah, a number of

1575
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:07,519
Speaker 1: them got shelved in Khaki. But I think those people

1576
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:11,800
Speaker 1: like I do understand that he has some labor issues. Yeah,

1577
01:29:11,800 --> 01:29:14,720
Speaker 1: although I think he's he recently like came out and

1578
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:16,439
Speaker 1: said that he had been wrong on that. I'd have

1579
01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:20,240
Speaker 1: to double check, but yeah, that's impressive. Like I've said

1580
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:22,479
Speaker 1: this before, this dude pivoted his whole life after seeing

1581
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:25,240
Speaker 1: what happened in Haiti to feeding people who are hungry

1582
01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:26,960
Speaker 1: all over the world. So I do believe he's capable

1583
01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:28,800
Speaker 1: of change, and hopefully he can change and treat his

1584
01:29:28,840 --> 01:29:32,320
Speaker 1: workers with decency in respect as well. But anywhere I

1585
01:29:32,360 --> 01:29:36,479
Speaker 1: am right where there is a humanitarian crisis inside the US,

1586
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:39,280
Speaker 1: outside the US, those people are there first, They're there

1587
01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:41,600
Speaker 1: before the Red Cross and if they don't seem to

1588
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:44,839
Speaker 1: get tied up in the bureaucratic ship that most large

1589
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:48,439
Speaker 1: global NGOs do. Like I've been in refugee camps where

1590
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:51,880
Speaker 1: MSF and Red Cross outside not doing anything. Yeah, if

1591
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:55,400
Speaker 1: you anywhere I have been where there are large groups

1592
01:29:55,400 --> 01:30:00,479
Speaker 1: of refugees, refugee camps, people dealing with violence. The the

1593
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:05,240
Speaker 1: most commonly cursed groups are often in g os, yes, yeah, yeah,

1594
01:30:05,240 --> 01:30:08,080
Speaker 1: there are you know, people in white Land was people

1595
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:11,000
Speaker 1: in fancy hotel lobbies, you know, Like that makes me

1596
01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 1: very angry and very sad. But I don't see that

1597
01:30:13,479 --> 01:30:17,160
Speaker 1: with w c K, like I have consistently seen them

1598
01:30:17,320 --> 01:30:21,280
Speaker 1: in there's pretty dire situations, you know, like times that

1599
01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:25,120
Speaker 1: give me bad sleeps, you know, and that they're always

1600
01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:28,599
Speaker 1: there helping people. So then there are also church groups

1601
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:30,400
Speaker 1: in lots of communities. Like I'm not a religious person,

1602
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:32,320
Speaker 1: but like I really can't fault any of these church

1603
01:30:32,360 --> 01:30:34,439
Speaker 1: groups that I've seen coming down from San Diego to

1604
01:30:34,479 --> 01:30:38,040
Speaker 1: Tijuana to feed and help people, But I would probably

1605
01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:42,240
Speaker 1: stay clear of those giant NGOs with your giving. I've

1606
01:30:42,240 --> 01:30:45,679
Speaker 1: just seen them be considered bureaucratic and less effective. Yeah,

1607
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:47,960
Speaker 1: I mean one of the rules. This is harder when

1608
01:30:47,960 --> 01:30:50,160
Speaker 1: it's a conflict far from home and you know, you

1609
01:30:50,200 --> 01:30:52,200
Speaker 1: see some news that makes you want to help, but

1610
01:30:52,280 --> 01:30:54,439
Speaker 1: you don't have any connections. But if you can never

1611
01:30:54,479 --> 01:30:56,960
Speaker 1: talk to people on the ground there, it's always best

1612
01:30:57,000 --> 01:31:01,120
Speaker 1: to ask them, like, who's actually doing anything, um, because

1613
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:04,880
Speaker 1: sometimes it is MSF you know, sometimes uh it is

1614
01:31:04,920 --> 01:31:08,000
Speaker 1: one of these larger organizations, but oftentimes they'll tell you, like,

1615
01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:10,799
Speaker 1: you know, the the group when I was in Mosle

1616
01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:12,960
Speaker 1: that got the most consistent praise from people who are

1617
01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:16,000
Speaker 1: like living there was the Free Barmer Rangers, right, Like

1618
01:31:16,040 --> 01:31:18,640
Speaker 1: there were all these massive international organizations, but when it

1619
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:20,240
Speaker 1: came right down to it, the people who were like

1620
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:23,720
Speaker 1: running under gunfire to pull wounded civilians out where you

1621
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:27,000
Speaker 1: know those folks. Yeah, yeah, those those guys do some

1622
01:31:27,160 --> 01:31:29,599
Speaker 1: do some very brave stuff. Definitely, And yeah, it is

1623
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:31,800
Speaker 1: normally you can find people on Facebook, like I've never

1624
01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:33,880
Speaker 1: been in a sort of situation with a lot of

1625
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:37,000
Speaker 1: displaced people. What people were not actively on Facebook and

1626
01:31:37,040 --> 01:31:39,200
Speaker 1: you can find people there they just just like you

1627
01:31:39,320 --> 01:31:40,840
Speaker 1: just want to have a chat. And again, it's nice

1628
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:43,160
Speaker 1: to have a chat. That's such an important point too,

1629
01:31:43,200 --> 01:31:45,840
Speaker 1: because I think that number one, people are often and

1630
01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:48,439
Speaker 1: it's easier, right, Like everyone has limited time, but you

1631
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:52,200
Speaker 1: kind of leave it to whatever media you trust to

1632
01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:55,160
Speaker 1: connect you to people in these desperate circumstances, and like

1633
01:31:55,960 --> 01:31:58,760
Speaker 1: people tend to want to connect who are dealing with

1634
01:31:58,840 --> 01:32:00,880
Speaker 1: something like that, who are fleeing violence, who are and

1635
01:32:00,880 --> 01:32:04,680
Speaker 1: they also are connected, like they're not separate from the

1636
01:32:04,720 --> 01:32:06,559
Speaker 1: rest of the world just because they've had to leave

1637
01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:09,639
Speaker 1: their home behind and they're they're generally not excluded from

1638
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:14,360
Speaker 1: the information networks that we all existed. Yeah, yeah, I think,

1639
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:16,920
Speaker 1: And sometimes the portrayed is like we talk about them,

1640
01:32:16,960 --> 01:32:18,800
Speaker 1: not to them far too often the media, and that

1641
01:32:18,840 --> 01:32:21,639
Speaker 1: makes me mad, right, Like I see that all the time.

1642
01:32:21,760 --> 01:32:24,640
Speaker 1: I see that happening when I'm doing reporting, right, I'll

1643
01:32:24,640 --> 01:32:26,880
Speaker 1: see people hanging out on the peripheries in these camps.

1644
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:29,000
Speaker 1: I understand some people are worried about COVID or whatever,

1645
01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:32,519
Speaker 1: but some of those people, right, like, uh, to be

1646
01:32:32,560 --> 01:32:35,200
Speaker 1: safe and be sensible, and yeah, that these people want

1647
01:32:35,200 --> 01:32:37,760
Speaker 1: to talk. I remember one thing that always sticks out, Well,

1648
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:40,000
Speaker 1: they want the same things that we want, remembered. So

1649
01:32:40,080 --> 01:32:43,840
Speaker 1: in migrant caravan, they were moved from they need to

1650
01:32:43,920 --> 01:32:46,920
Speaker 1: Quid a sports complex to this old nightclub a bit

1651
01:32:46,920 --> 01:32:49,240
Speaker 1: further south, further away from the border. Right. It was

1652
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:51,280
Speaker 1: a very weird scene. It was this big nightclub with

1653
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:55,720
Speaker 1: like the mirrors and the dancing poles and the disco balls,

1654
01:32:55,760 --> 01:32:57,559
Speaker 1: but it had been like moth balls for like ten years.

1655
01:32:57,560 --> 01:32:59,720
Speaker 1: It was all dusty. They had a special room for

1656
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:03,719
Speaker 1: people who were pregnant, people can people who had had children,

1657
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 1: and and the young children themselves, right, they were sort

1658
01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:10,320
Speaker 1: of just to keep them safe. And we were going

1659
01:33:10,360 --> 01:33:11,479
Speaker 1: there and it was weird because they were still like

1660
01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:15,360
Speaker 1: mirrors on the floor. But then I remember these kids,

1661
01:33:16,120 --> 01:33:17,679
Speaker 1: you talk to them, right, you know what do you want?

1662
01:33:17,800 --> 01:33:19,600
Speaker 1: And like, first of all, one kid asked me for

1663
01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:21,400
Speaker 1: a Teddy Bear and it just broke my heart, Like

1664
01:33:21,600 --> 01:33:24,880
Speaker 1: I don't know why, it just level me. Uh. And

1665
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:27,800
Speaker 1: then they wanted to like you know that they had

1666
01:33:27,880 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 1: enjoyed the same Disney films that kids here had, right,

1667
01:33:30,439 --> 01:33:33,920
Speaker 1: so my buddy managed to acquire a projector. We went

1668
01:33:33,960 --> 01:33:37,200
Speaker 1: into the ceiling, rigged up this projector and just set

1669
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:41,000
Speaker 1: up like Beverly Hills Chihuahua playing on one water this nightclub.

1670
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:43,680
Speaker 1: And these kids are like, it's Beverly Hills Chihuahua. Like

1671
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:46,479
Speaker 1: let's go like the you know, they were just kids

1672
01:33:46,479 --> 01:33:48,760
Speaker 1: watching a film, like like like they can be anywhere else,

1673
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:51,200
Speaker 1: and it's really easy to see them ast like different

1674
01:33:51,280 --> 01:33:53,800
Speaker 1: or week or you know. The way they're portraying the

1675
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:56,280
Speaker 1: media is like people without agency and they're not like

1676
01:33:56,320 --> 01:33:58,799
Speaker 1: they've taken huge amounts of agency to try and improve

1677
01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:02,360
Speaker 1: their lives. And it's also so much focus is on

1678
01:34:02,400 --> 01:34:05,480
Speaker 1: these things that aren't you know, medicine, food that are necessary,

1679
01:34:05,600 --> 01:34:09,920
Speaker 1: but like having a normal moment where you're like a

1680
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:12,439
Speaker 1: kid watching a cartoon or playing with a toy, it's

1681
01:34:12,479 --> 01:34:17,200
Speaker 1: also necessary. Yeah, Like, these children will be scarred by

1682
01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:19,880
Speaker 1: their experiences, right by whatever is causing to flee, by

1683
01:34:19,880 --> 01:34:21,680
Speaker 1: the flight itself, and by the process of coming to

1684
01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:24,400
Speaker 1: the into the country, but yeah, we should do everything

1685
01:34:24,439 --> 01:34:27,559
Speaker 1: we can to protect them from those traumatic experiences and

1686
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:30,080
Speaker 1: just play Like I cannot count the amount of times

1687
01:34:30,120 --> 01:34:32,720
Speaker 1: I have been like ship housed in a game of

1688
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:34,760
Speaker 1: football by six year olds trying to come to the

1689
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:37,360
Speaker 1: United States, right like, so things like that, Remember someone

1690
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:39,320
Speaker 1: donated a couple of football goals, I too, come down

1691
01:34:39,320 --> 01:34:41,639
Speaker 1: and set them up. And then yeah, just having those

1692
01:34:41,680 --> 01:34:45,400
Speaker 1: moments of normalcy, those moments of fun like little little

1693
01:34:45,520 --> 01:34:49,240
Speaker 1: plastic ukuleles and stuff like. We're very important because it

1694
01:34:49,360 --> 01:34:51,120
Speaker 1: let kids be kids. And then that's you know, they

1695
01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:54,599
Speaker 1: have every right to do that. Well, James, I think

1696
01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:56,880
Speaker 1: that's going to make a suda for us. You want

1697
01:34:56,880 --> 01:35:00,280
Speaker 1: to throw your plug doubles in before we roll out? Yeah, uh,

1698
01:35:00,720 --> 01:35:02,760
Speaker 1: I want to plug, like like I said before, doing

1699
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:05,559
Speaker 1: things to help people outside of networks that let people

1700
01:35:05,600 --> 01:35:09,400
Speaker 1: have power over people. To do that first, and then yeah,

1701
01:35:09,439 --> 01:35:11,840
Speaker 1: you can put my name James Stout into Twitter and

1702
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:14,240
Speaker 1: find me. I have a Patreon by the same thing

1703
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:17,000
Speaker 1: right about the border a lot. You can see it

1704
01:35:17,120 --> 01:35:19,840
Speaker 1: in um if I just plug one popular p O

1705
01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:23,559
Speaker 1: p U l A about migrant caravan so you can

1706
01:35:23,600 --> 01:35:26,559
Speaker 1: read my writing there. Feel free to message me if

1707
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:28,880
Speaker 1: you want to find any of these groups and you can't. Yeah,

1708
01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:31,479
Speaker 1: it's all right, Well that's going to do it for us.

1709
01:35:32,160 --> 01:35:56,040
Speaker 1: Go do something good. Yeah, the podcast has started. Start

1710
01:35:56,200 --> 01:35:58,160
Speaker 1: this is this is it could happen here, this is

1711
01:35:58,200 --> 01:36:00,719
Speaker 1: it could happen here. That's right, and you're Robert Evans.

1712
01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:07,120
Speaker 1: We also have Shrine, Lanny Nis, and Christopher Wong with us. Christopher, Hi, Yeah,

1713
01:36:07,160 --> 01:36:09,439
Speaker 1: I guess I'm sort of running this show today, even

1714
01:36:09,439 --> 01:36:14,599
Speaker 1: to Robert has You're right done? The intro question mark? Um,

1715
01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:17,519
Speaker 1: always with a question mark. That's how the pros do it?

1716
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:25,000
Speaker 1: Can you can tell professionals? Yeah? But speak Speaking of professionals,

1717
01:36:25,640 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 1: we have we have Karina Dominga's with us, who is

1718
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:30,639
Speaker 1: in fact actually a professional and has spent eight years

1719
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:34,240
Speaker 1: working in reproductive health issues of Karina. Welcome to the

1720
01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:37,040
Speaker 1: show and thank you for joining us. Thank you, thank

1721
01:36:37,040 --> 01:36:40,520
Speaker 1: you for having me. It's lovely to have you Onina.

1722
01:36:40,960 --> 01:36:44,920
Speaker 1: What's the what's going on? How are thanks? I think

1723
01:36:45,320 --> 01:36:49,439
Speaker 1: things are okay. I think I can say that doesn't

1724
01:36:49,479 --> 01:36:58,960
Speaker 1: seem true. Yeah, but they're okay. Um, yeah, okay. I

1725
01:36:59,080 --> 01:37:02,160
Speaker 1: pulled them out of crash truck once and as I

1726
01:37:02,200 --> 01:37:04,880
Speaker 1: was trying to like staunch the bleeding from a cut

1727
01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:07,440
Speaker 1: in his hand, I asked how he was and he said, okay,

1728
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:13,400
Speaker 1: So I'm guessing it's that kind of Okay, you nailed it. Yeah, Karina,

1729
01:37:13,479 --> 01:37:15,439
Speaker 1: do you wanna tell us a little bit about your

1730
01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:17,840
Speaker 1: background and the work that you do? And you know

1731
01:37:18,320 --> 01:37:21,000
Speaker 1: why why why? We We just really wanted to have

1732
01:37:21,120 --> 01:37:24,320
Speaker 1: you on the show. Yeah, I would love too. So again,

1733
01:37:24,400 --> 01:37:27,479
Speaker 1: my name is Karina Dominguez. I am from Chicago born

1734
01:37:27,479 --> 01:37:31,200
Speaker 1: and raised. UM. I've worked in Reproductive Health forum about

1735
01:37:31,240 --> 01:37:34,439
Speaker 1: eight years, but really what I consider about fifteen years

1736
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:37,519
Speaker 1: or so. UM. I have experience and working in the

1737
01:37:37,560 --> 01:37:40,599
Speaker 1: community and different capacities. UM. I love reproductive health. I'd

1738
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:44,040
Speaker 1: consider myself a reproductive health nerd UM. And it all

1739
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:46,160
Speaker 1: started when I was a teenager growing up in Chicago,

1740
01:37:46,280 --> 01:37:48,400
Speaker 1: where just in the city life, you see a lot

1741
01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:50,960
Speaker 1: of things that don't really sit well with you. UM.

1742
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:53,880
Speaker 1: I knew a lot of young girls who were getting

1743
01:37:53,880 --> 01:37:58,559
Speaker 1: pregnant at young ages, experiencing trauma and specifically sexual trauma UM,

1744
01:37:58,600 --> 01:38:01,320
Speaker 1: and not knowing who to go to or where to go.

1745
01:38:01,680 --> 01:38:05,160
Speaker 1: So these were mostly young girls of color who I

1746
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:07,800
Speaker 1: cared for a lot. And I immediately knew that I

1747
01:38:07,840 --> 01:38:11,000
Speaker 1: wanted to do more activism and that I needed to

1748
01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:14,320
Speaker 1: do more activism. And the way my activism looks is

1749
01:38:14,320 --> 01:38:17,040
Speaker 1: through my education. So today. I have a master's in

1750
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:19,160
Speaker 1: Public Health UM and I also have a bachelor's in

1751
01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:22,800
Speaker 1: public health, and with that education, I've been able to

1752
01:38:23,600 --> 01:38:26,920
Speaker 1: provide sexual and reproductive health counseling. I practiced as a

1753
01:38:26,920 --> 01:38:30,439
Speaker 1: full spectrum do LA where I have provided abortion care

1754
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:34,920
Speaker 1: for people and also UM provided birthing care for people

1755
01:38:34,920 --> 01:38:38,240
Speaker 1: as well. I led a pregnant parenting program at a

1756
01:38:38,280 --> 01:38:42,439
Speaker 1: nonprofit for youth experiencing homelessness, and right now I currently

1757
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:45,759
Speaker 1: manage a sexual and Reproductive health grant where we provide

1758
01:38:45,800 --> 01:38:48,320
Speaker 1: resources to treatment centers in the l A area to

1759
01:38:48,400 --> 01:38:52,000
Speaker 1: integrate sexual and reproductive health for patients in substance use

1760
01:38:52,040 --> 01:38:59,080
Speaker 1: disorder treatment. Cool, so we are slacking. That was an

1761
01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:05,559
Speaker 1: impressive Yeah, I think the thank you that made us

1762
01:39:05,560 --> 01:39:07,760
Speaker 1: want to chat with you. We were having a conversation

1763
01:39:07,760 --> 01:39:11,920
Speaker 1: show when the news first dropped that the Supreme Court

1764
01:39:12,040 --> 01:39:15,880
Speaker 1: was yeating Roe v. Wade into the sun UM. There

1765
01:39:15,880 --> 01:39:19,320
Speaker 1: were a couple of different news agencies that did like

1766
01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:22,280
Speaker 1: intern you know, while talking about what options we're going

1767
01:39:22,360 --> 01:39:25,160
Speaker 1: to remain for people, that would bring up crisis pregnancy centers,

1768
01:39:25,240 --> 01:39:28,559
Speaker 1: which are UM shady as hell as I'm sure we're

1769
01:39:28,560 --> 01:39:30,519
Speaker 1: about to talk about. But yeah, so that's that's kind

1770
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:32,000
Speaker 1: of why we brought you and what we brought you

1771
01:39:32,040 --> 01:39:34,240
Speaker 1: on initially to talk about. I wonder do you want

1772
01:39:34,240 --> 01:39:37,360
Speaker 1: to kind of introduce folks to what those are, because

1773
01:39:38,240 --> 01:39:40,760
Speaker 1: the gist of it is, if you like Google, how

1774
01:39:40,760 --> 01:39:44,240
Speaker 1: do I like find out if I'm pregnant or like

1775
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:46,720
Speaker 1: you know, I'm pregnant and I need help, There's a

1776
01:39:46,720 --> 01:39:48,920
Speaker 1: good chance old Google will take you to one of

1777
01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:51,720
Speaker 1: these places, and they are, shall we say, not what

1778
01:39:51,760 --> 01:39:55,760
Speaker 1: they seem to be? Yes, I think we can exactly

1779
01:39:55,800 --> 01:39:59,840
Speaker 1: say that, um. And I am just going to say

1780
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:03,960
Speaker 1: in the most direct way I possibly could. A crisis

1781
01:40:04,000 --> 01:40:08,160
Speaker 1: pregnancy center is essentially a fake medical facility that prays

1782
01:40:08,200 --> 01:40:12,759
Speaker 1: on vulnerable people, specifically people who can become pregnant. So yeah,

1783
01:40:12,920 --> 01:40:15,280
Speaker 1: you know, we can use the term fake medical clinic,

1784
01:40:15,880 --> 01:40:18,559
Speaker 1: um I for the purpose just of using the most

1785
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:21,400
Speaker 1: common term crisis pregnancy center, I'm going to stick to

1786
01:40:21,479 --> 01:40:23,800
Speaker 1: using that term. UM. But yes, there are a lot

1787
01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:26,639
Speaker 1: of concerns about this, and I'm sure our friend Google

1788
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:30,360
Speaker 1: will pop them up for us really quick. UM. So,

1789
01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:34,719
Speaker 1: crisis pregnancy centers usually have names like women's pregnancy center

1790
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:38,760
Speaker 1: or women's health center, something health center. Um and it's

1791
01:40:38,760 --> 01:40:43,640
Speaker 1: a very misleading advertisement. So they are anti abortion facilities

1792
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:48,920
Speaker 1: that manipulate people into having a full term pregnancy. So

1793
01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:52,120
Speaker 1: these places are usually religious oriented, They have a religious

1794
01:40:52,200 --> 01:40:56,080
Speaker 1: agenda and it's not patient lad. So some of these

1795
01:40:56,200 --> 01:41:00,240
Speaker 1: larger religious based organizations that fund these what we think

1796
01:41:00,280 --> 01:41:06,240
Speaker 1: are smaller tiny clinics are agencies or organizations like care Net,

1797
01:41:06,280 --> 01:41:10,640
Speaker 1: Heartbeat International, National Institute of Family and Life, Birthright International,

1798
01:41:10,800 --> 01:41:14,000
Speaker 1: and RAMA International. So a lot of times you might

1799
01:41:14,000 --> 01:41:17,519
Speaker 1: think you're going to the small, little tiny clinic or

1800
01:41:17,600 --> 01:41:21,639
Speaker 1: maybe it's even like a community medical mobile unit, and

1801
01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:25,840
Speaker 1: it turns out there backed by big money and bigger agencies.

1802
01:41:26,200 --> 01:41:29,840
Speaker 1: So they typically will implant themselves in communities of color,

1803
01:41:30,800 --> 01:41:35,320
Speaker 1: um near college campuses, and low income neighborhoods. So what

1804
01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:39,280
Speaker 1: is that saying. That's saying that this is a woman's issue,

1805
01:41:39,320 --> 01:41:41,360
Speaker 1: this is a trans issue, this is an l g

1806
01:41:41,479 --> 01:41:44,040
Speaker 1: B t q I A issue, this is a bipoc issue,

1807
01:41:44,280 --> 01:41:47,720
Speaker 1: Black Indigenous people of color, and it's simply just an

1808
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:51,360
Speaker 1: issue for everyone. Yeah, And it's so one of the

1809
01:41:51,360 --> 01:41:53,639
Speaker 1: things that's kind of messy about these places is that

1810
01:41:54,160 --> 01:41:56,599
Speaker 1: if you look at like investigations into how they work,

1811
01:41:56,640 --> 01:41:59,080
Speaker 1: you'll run into a number of stories of women who

1812
01:41:59,080 --> 01:42:01,920
Speaker 1: are like, Hey, I actually like always intended to go

1813
01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:04,120
Speaker 1: through with my pregnancy. I just needed to like know

1814
01:42:04,240 --> 01:42:06,000
Speaker 1: that number one, know that I was pregnant. I needed

1815
01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:09,000
Speaker 1: to test or something. And these people advertised they would

1816
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:10,720
Speaker 1: provide that for free, or the advertise that they were

1817
01:42:10,720 --> 01:42:14,040
Speaker 1: providing stuff like diapers, you know, basic kind of supplies,

1818
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:18,519
Speaker 1: formula for free, um. And some of them do, most

1819
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:20,760
Speaker 1: of them due to some extent, but nearly all of

1820
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:22,960
Speaker 1: them have some sort of like and this is outside

1821
01:42:22,960 --> 01:42:25,240
Speaker 1: of kind of the abortion aspect, access of it, have

1822
01:42:25,360 --> 01:42:27,000
Speaker 1: some sort of funked up hoops you have to jump

1823
01:42:27,040 --> 01:42:29,320
Speaker 1: through in order to actually get access to any of

1824
01:42:29,320 --> 01:42:32,840
Speaker 1: that stuff. Absolutely, yeah, I'm really glad that you brought up,

1825
01:42:32,880 --> 01:42:35,880
Speaker 1: like the diaper point. I think that is a really

1826
01:42:36,000 --> 01:42:38,880
Speaker 1: essential thing, because they don't not give out stuff, right,

1827
01:42:38,920 --> 01:42:43,240
Speaker 1: but it's it's messier than they want to portray it as. Yeah, yeah, totally,

1828
01:42:43,360 --> 01:42:46,240
Speaker 1: and and it's a form of manipulation, right, And I

1829
01:42:46,280 --> 01:42:51,800
Speaker 1: think too, it's a form of manipulation too to deem

1830
01:42:51,840 --> 01:42:55,880
Speaker 1: yourself a full functioning medical facility where they actually don't

1831
01:42:55,880 --> 01:42:59,559
Speaker 1: provide those comprehensive services and sometimes you know, they might

1832
01:42:59,600 --> 01:43:02,600
Speaker 1: even say the outside like HIV testing, s I v M,

1833
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:08,240
Speaker 1: STI testing, HIV testing, um, and they're simply not evidence

1834
01:43:08,280 --> 01:43:11,879
Speaker 1: based practices. So what I mean by an evidence evidence

1835
01:43:12,040 --> 01:43:17,680
Speaker 1: based practice is something like condom use. We know very

1836
01:43:17,760 --> 01:43:20,960
Speaker 1: well at this day and age that condoms are essential

1837
01:43:21,720 --> 01:43:25,280
Speaker 1: to prevent s t I S and HIV transmission. So

1838
01:43:25,960 --> 01:43:28,040
Speaker 1: a lot of these clinics they might even say like,

1839
01:43:28,160 --> 01:43:30,680
Speaker 1: condoms don't decrease your chances of s t I S.

1840
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:33,080
Speaker 1: They don't really matter. They're not really doing anything. And

1841
01:43:33,200 --> 01:43:35,760
Speaker 1: that is a really big piece of information that we

1842
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:39,240
Speaker 1: need to know as the average person, because that means

1843
01:43:39,320 --> 01:43:41,599
Speaker 1: we have a lot of young people going to these

1844
01:43:41,640 --> 01:43:45,920
Speaker 1: clinics and having even their foundational sexual health education at

1845
01:43:46,000 --> 01:43:49,680
Speaker 1: these facilities. So this is a really really important thing

1846
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:52,479
Speaker 1: to take note of. UM And I would say that

1847
01:43:52,920 --> 01:43:54,920
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people even in my life,

1848
01:43:54,960 --> 01:43:59,000
Speaker 1: that have gone to crisis pregnancy centers by accident. Um

1849
01:43:59,439 --> 01:44:02,320
Speaker 1: are you know, being told that they can do STI testing,

1850
01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:05,120
Speaker 1: HIV testing, and even birth control and then as soon

1851
01:44:05,160 --> 01:44:07,320
Speaker 1: as you go there, you realize that's not what's happening.

1852
01:44:07,920 --> 01:44:11,400
Speaker 1: Usually it's going to be a lot of pregnancy related

1853
01:44:11,439 --> 01:44:15,080
Speaker 1: services like ultrasounds and pregnancy tests, which we know if

1854
01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:17,840
Speaker 1: you're an actual clinic that's those aren't the only things

1855
01:44:17,880 --> 01:44:21,200
Speaker 1: that someone would need for essential health care. But I

1856
01:44:21,240 --> 01:44:26,240
Speaker 1: would say even more like going into the manipulation and um,

1857
01:44:26,400 --> 01:44:29,400
Speaker 1: the gas lighting that they do within these facilities, which

1858
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:33,720
Speaker 1: in my eyes is medical violence. UM. They provide even

1859
01:44:33,840 --> 01:44:37,400
Speaker 1: mandatory ultrasounds, make someone sit there to look at the ultrasound.

1860
01:44:37,960 --> 01:44:42,320
Speaker 1: They make fearful videos of misleading information about what abortions are,

1861
01:44:42,439 --> 01:44:45,840
Speaker 1: and sometimes even have someone who's not a medical provider

1862
01:44:46,360 --> 01:44:48,880
Speaker 1: showing what an abortion is in their eyes, and the

1863
01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:51,640
Speaker 1: video maybe of a baby that's whose limbs are being

1864
01:44:51,720 --> 01:44:56,200
Speaker 1: ripped apart um. Even giving information like abortions can lead

1865
01:44:56,240 --> 01:44:59,320
Speaker 1: to breast cancer or if you have abortion, you'll never

1866
01:44:59,400 --> 01:45:01,080
Speaker 1: be able to have a child, and this is your

1867
01:45:01,120 --> 01:45:05,479
Speaker 1: one and only opportunity um. And sometimes even going further,

1868
01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:09,400
Speaker 1: you know they are sneaky and what they do, because

1869
01:45:09,439 --> 01:45:13,320
Speaker 1: they might even have programs that will say parent program

1870
01:45:13,800 --> 01:45:17,960
Speaker 1: UM or youth sexual health program and even with that

1871
01:45:18,120 --> 01:45:23,160
Speaker 1: they're giving religious based agendas um. And they are telling

1872
01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:26,920
Speaker 1: people misinformation about sexual health and even so might even

1873
01:45:27,000 --> 01:45:32,439
Speaker 1: talk about very heterosexual sex marriage. All of the above

1874
01:45:32,640 --> 01:45:36,040
Speaker 1: so there is a very specific agenda that is going

1875
01:45:36,120 --> 01:45:39,240
Speaker 1: on here. Um. And we know too that a lot

1876
01:45:39,320 --> 01:45:41,599
Speaker 1: of these agencies can be really sneaky with what they're

1877
01:45:41,640 --> 01:45:44,560
Speaker 1: doing because they may even deny that they are a

1878
01:45:44,600 --> 01:45:49,000
Speaker 1: crisis pregnancy center, and even further, if you go onto

1879
01:45:49,040 --> 01:45:52,360
Speaker 1: their website, they might not even have any language that

1880
01:45:52,840 --> 01:45:56,919
Speaker 1: they're religious based or that they are um, not providing

1881
01:45:57,000 --> 01:46:00,280
Speaker 1: comprehensive services. So there are a lot of diff written

1882
01:46:00,280 --> 01:46:06,800
Speaker 1: tactics that are you know, within the manipulate manipulative strategies

1883
01:46:06,840 --> 01:46:10,000
Speaker 1: that they use. Yeah. One of the things I've heard

1884
01:46:10,000 --> 01:46:16,360
Speaker 1: a lot about is like basically like not not literally

1885
01:46:16,439 --> 01:46:20,920
Speaker 1: physically forcing but like terrorizing people into signing like fake

1886
01:46:21,040 --> 01:46:25,120
Speaker 1: legal documents saying they won't get an abortion, which like

1887
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:28,760
Speaker 1: really like every description I've heard about that, it is

1888
01:46:28,840 --> 01:46:34,880
Speaker 1: just like this is just terrorism. That's absolutely um. Yeah,

1889
01:46:34,960 --> 01:46:37,560
Speaker 1: And I find that to be really interesting. I have

1890
01:46:37,720 --> 01:46:41,559
Speaker 1: never heard of that happening. But just because I haven't

1891
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:44,599
Speaker 1: specifically heard about, does it not mean it's not happening. Um.

1892
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:48,000
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, there, they're not all

1893
01:46:48,160 --> 01:46:51,880
Speaker 1: made the same, um, they all functioned differently. And I

1894
01:46:52,000 --> 01:46:55,080
Speaker 1: think that's also what is really confusing about them because

1895
01:46:55,160 --> 01:46:58,559
Speaker 1: they're not consistently all doing the same thing. There are

1896
01:46:58,920 --> 01:47:02,400
Speaker 1: still other facility is that they might do STI testing,

1897
01:47:02,479 --> 01:47:05,439
Speaker 1: they might do HIV testing, and so to hear that

1898
01:47:05,880 --> 01:47:09,040
Speaker 1: is not shocking to me. Um. And the manipulative tactics

1899
01:47:09,160 --> 01:47:12,080
Speaker 1: that they are using for people and yeah, I mean

1900
01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:15,559
Speaker 1: hip book goes out the door. You know, any legal

1901
01:47:15,640 --> 01:47:18,920
Speaker 1: backing goes out the door with these facilities because they

1902
01:47:18,960 --> 01:47:22,720
Speaker 1: are not based on providing patient led services in the

1903
01:47:22,760 --> 01:47:27,479
Speaker 1: first place. Maybe this is an ignorant, ignorant train of thought,

1904
01:47:27,600 --> 01:47:30,360
Speaker 1: but if they're providing all of these like free ish

1905
01:47:30,560 --> 01:47:33,120
Speaker 1: services or like whatever to these people that are desperate,

1906
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:35,559
Speaker 1: and um, it sounds like a lot of them are

1907
01:47:35,600 --> 01:47:38,160
Speaker 1: like privately funded by these organizations, and the shadows like

1908
01:47:38,280 --> 01:47:41,439
Speaker 1: what how do they benefit? Like where like what is

1909
01:47:41,560 --> 01:47:44,760
Speaker 1: there other than like imposing religion and other people? But

1910
01:47:44,880 --> 01:47:51,760
Speaker 1: like like financially and like I'm confused, where how they're

1911
01:47:51,800 --> 01:47:57,080
Speaker 1: still able to function? Yes, they function very well and

1912
01:47:57,200 --> 01:48:00,160
Speaker 1: without a problem. Um. And as I mentioned, there's you know,

1913
01:48:00,280 --> 01:48:06,120
Speaker 1: five larger organizations that are funding a lot of these CPCs,

1914
01:48:06,920 --> 01:48:11,439
Speaker 1: but they are also um this is to be noted

1915
01:48:11,880 --> 01:48:15,040
Speaker 1: there on the CDC website, they are on the CDC

1916
01:48:15,360 --> 01:48:22,280
Speaker 1: directory as places that provide essential services. So I think

1917
01:48:22,360 --> 01:48:28,040
Speaker 1: that also goes to speak to the confusion around CPCs.

1918
01:48:29,400 --> 01:48:31,880
Speaker 1: And I'm just gonna go out in the limb and

1919
01:48:32,000 --> 01:48:34,880
Speaker 1: say I'm going to give the CDC benefit of the

1920
01:48:34,960 --> 01:48:40,120
Speaker 1: doubt although they do not deserve that, and say that, um,

1921
01:48:40,479 --> 01:48:45,960
Speaker 1: they themselves may not recognize what what these agencies are doing.

1922
01:48:46,200 --> 01:48:50,479
Speaker 1: And so I think that's where the awareness around the

1923
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:52,960
Speaker 1: actual function of the ccs and how they even exist

1924
01:48:53,040 --> 01:48:55,920
Speaker 1: in the first place needs to be shut down. And

1925
01:48:55,960 --> 01:48:58,720
Speaker 1: awareness needs to be brought about these places. And and

1926
01:48:58,840 --> 01:49:03,080
Speaker 1: we know that third of them are funded by their states,

1927
01:49:04,040 --> 01:49:07,920
Speaker 1: so they are getting direct government money to be able

1928
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:11,400
Speaker 1: to function and then on top of that also functioning

1929
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:16,760
Speaker 1: with the backing of their larger organizations. Wow, are they

1930
01:49:16,800 --> 01:49:20,240
Speaker 1: getting federal funding too? Like I have some vague memories

1931
01:49:20,320 --> 01:49:24,519
Speaker 1: of like Bush administration programs that we're funding just right,

1932
01:49:24,760 --> 01:49:27,320
Speaker 1: I mean, if I'm not mistaken, Trump pushed a bunch

1933
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:32,360
Speaker 1: of federal funds towards these facilities. Yes, yeah, I wonder,

1934
01:49:33,120 --> 01:49:35,400
Speaker 1: Sorry ahead, I don't go ahead. I was just I

1935
01:49:35,479 --> 01:49:41,439
Speaker 1: was wondering, like I wonder if there's a um like

1936
01:49:41,560 --> 01:49:44,160
Speaker 1: one or two things you need to qualify as like

1937
01:49:44,439 --> 01:49:47,360
Speaker 1: a what's what how did you put it on the website?

1938
01:49:47,479 --> 01:49:51,000
Speaker 1: CBC uh um, like they offer like services, like maybe

1939
01:49:51,040 --> 01:49:53,160
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this place has an ultrasound. These are

1940
01:49:53,280 --> 01:49:55,080
Speaker 1: like this is why this is on you know what

1941
01:49:55,120 --> 01:49:56,559
Speaker 1: I mean? Like, I wonder if they just like pick

1942
01:49:56,600 --> 01:49:59,400
Speaker 1: and choose the bare minimum of things to like qualify

1943
01:49:59,520 --> 01:50:03,240
Speaker 1: to be UM considered among like people that offer like

1944
01:50:03,360 --> 01:50:06,599
Speaker 1: full fledged care. But I don't know what it's all

1945
01:50:06,680 --> 01:50:10,560
Speaker 1: scam Yeah, And I mean I think that also is

1946
01:50:10,640 --> 01:50:13,760
Speaker 1: just a really UM. I like that you bring that

1947
01:50:13,840 --> 01:50:16,479
Speaker 1: up because I think that would be a really ignorant

1948
01:50:16,520 --> 01:50:20,800
Speaker 1: perspective from the CDC to think that a place that

1949
01:50:20,960 --> 01:50:26,360
Speaker 1: gives a pregnancy test or an ultrasound right away is

1950
01:50:27,720 --> 01:50:33,600
Speaker 1: not necessarily your average healthcare setting. UM. When someone is

1951
01:50:35,240 --> 01:50:39,160
Speaker 1: going into an appointment, typically you know they're not getting

1952
01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:44,000
Speaker 1: an ultrasound right away. Typically you're average person who might

1953
01:50:44,040 --> 01:50:46,640
Speaker 1: think they're pregnant and is going into a medical facility,

1954
01:50:47,360 --> 01:50:50,639
Speaker 1: is going to do a pregnancy test. Sure, but they're

1955
01:50:50,640 --> 01:50:53,360
Speaker 1: not just gonna immediately the first twenty minutes you're there

1956
01:50:53,439 --> 01:50:56,479
Speaker 1: do an ultrasound. UM. And especially knowing our health care

1957
01:50:56,560 --> 01:51:00,000
Speaker 1: system and the United states. You know that might require

1958
01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:04,519
Speaker 1: referrals and another facility to get that done, and you

1959
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:07,760
Speaker 1: know that depends on what your insurances and what you

1960
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:11,400
Speaker 1: can pay for and etcetera, etcetera. But I think it's

1961
01:51:11,439 --> 01:51:14,840
Speaker 1: a really big red flag to just have a facility

1962
01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:20,479
Speaker 1: that has pregnancy tests and ultrasounds. That to me is,

1963
01:51:20,720 --> 01:51:22,599
Speaker 1: you know, if I see on a website that those

1964
01:51:22,640 --> 01:51:26,799
Speaker 1: are the only two services that healthcare clinic is claiming

1965
01:51:26,880 --> 01:51:30,559
Speaker 1: to provide, I'm running away and I'm not going there

1966
01:51:30,640 --> 01:51:34,439
Speaker 1: because that's very odd. Well, it's it's very manipulative, because

1967
01:51:34,479 --> 01:51:36,080
Speaker 1: it's it's one of those things. One of the ways

1968
01:51:36,120 --> 01:51:39,360
Speaker 1: in which you can tell is something healthcare related shady

1969
01:51:39,400 --> 01:51:43,080
Speaker 1: as fuck is does it take advantage of the fact

1970
01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:47,920
Speaker 1: that very basic things that you need are extremely expensive um,

1971
01:51:48,320 --> 01:51:51,000
Speaker 1: and like ultrasounds, pregnancy tests, this can all be like

1972
01:51:51,200 --> 01:51:54,960
Speaker 1: STD tests, you know, can all be really really pricey um.

1973
01:51:55,600 --> 01:51:58,840
Speaker 1: And it's just so like it's fucked up that this

1974
01:51:58,960 --> 01:52:02,160
Speaker 1: is kind of how they're funning religious dollars towards taking

1975
01:52:02,160 --> 01:52:04,640
Speaker 1: advantage of the fact that a lot of people, like

1976
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:07,600
Speaker 1: legitimately some people who use these facilities. I don't know

1977
01:52:07,720 --> 01:52:11,240
Speaker 1: what else to tell them, because it's like, well, we

1978
01:52:11,360 --> 01:52:13,560
Speaker 1: don't provide people with a lot of options in this

1979
01:52:13,720 --> 01:52:18,160
Speaker 1: country everywhere, you know, for for some of these services. Yeah, totally.

1980
01:52:18,920 --> 01:52:22,680
Speaker 1: And I do want to go into some of the

1981
01:52:22,800 --> 01:52:26,280
Speaker 1: people doing the work and I want to really highlight

1982
01:52:26,640 --> 01:52:30,600
Speaker 1: what they're doing. UM. So I want to give the

1983
01:52:30,840 --> 01:52:35,160
Speaker 1: utmost credit to two people, UM who I do not

1984
01:52:35,320 --> 01:52:39,879
Speaker 1: know personally but would definitely love to UM Dr Andreas

1985
01:52:39,960 --> 01:52:43,880
Speaker 1: Warton Rubber and Dr Danielle Lambert. They're both associate professors

1986
01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:47,960
Speaker 1: at the School of Public Health at University of Georgia,

1987
01:52:48,080 --> 01:52:50,679
Speaker 1: and they're both co founders of the CPC Maps, which

1988
01:52:50,800 --> 01:52:54,680
Speaker 1: originated in two thousand and eighteen. So yes, there's a

1989
01:52:54,760 --> 01:52:58,040
Speaker 1: brilliant map where you can search these CPCs that are

1990
01:52:58,080 --> 01:53:00,280
Speaker 1: close to you. UM. And in my eye is this

1991
01:53:00,760 --> 01:53:03,280
Speaker 1: map is truly a piece of gold because I myself

1992
01:53:03,360 --> 01:53:06,280
Speaker 1: have found ones that are in my area UM and

1993
01:53:06,880 --> 01:53:10,400
Speaker 1: was very beneficial when I was working with clients myself

1994
01:53:10,520 --> 01:53:13,640
Speaker 1: directly and would refer people to different services. So this

1995
01:53:13,760 --> 01:53:16,800
Speaker 1: is a really great tool for healthcare professionals and social

1996
01:53:16,880 --> 01:53:20,120
Speaker 1: service workers, et cetera to refer to UM. And I

1997
01:53:20,200 --> 01:53:23,160
Speaker 1: can't even explain how grateful I am to know that

1998
01:53:23,280 --> 01:53:26,839
Speaker 1: there's ongoing research about the distraught impact of these clinics

1999
01:53:27,400 --> 01:53:30,360
Speaker 1: and the distraught impact they have on our health care

2000
01:53:30,439 --> 01:53:33,760
Speaker 1: system and the ability to find an abortion provider. UM.

2001
01:53:33,880 --> 01:53:37,000
Speaker 1: So again I hope that every service provider can find

2002
01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:41,559
Speaker 1: these this map, UM and use this map and really

2003
01:53:41,640 --> 01:53:45,479
Speaker 1: spread awareness around this. So. UM. What I want to

2004
01:53:45,640 --> 01:53:50,240
Speaker 1: highlight and what these two doctors have found is that

2005
01:53:50,840 --> 01:53:55,920
Speaker 1: just to give some more context, every single state has

2006
01:53:56,800 --> 01:54:03,040
Speaker 1: multiple SPCs, multiple not just one to multiple there are

2007
01:54:04,840 --> 01:54:10,800
Speaker 1: CPCs and throughout the United States, and that is obviously

2008
01:54:10,960 --> 01:54:13,400
Speaker 1: a much larger number than the health departments in the

2009
01:54:13,479 --> 01:54:16,960
Speaker 1: United States. And you know, as I mentioned, we know

2010
01:54:17,080 --> 01:54:22,719
Speaker 1: the CBC directory utilizes CPCs on their website and again

2011
01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:28,519
Speaker 1: thirteen states are funded or are funding CPCs UM. So

2012
01:54:28,640 --> 01:54:32,760
Speaker 1: their advertisements are going far and wide. Um. And to

2013
01:54:32,920 --> 01:54:35,839
Speaker 1: even go further, in the state of California, the California

2014
01:54:35,880 --> 01:54:39,720
Speaker 1: Women's Law Center says that there are twenty more CPCs

2015
01:54:40,400 --> 01:54:46,480
Speaker 1: then there are abortion clinics. So I think in this time, yeah, yeah,

2016
01:54:47,000 --> 01:54:49,280
Speaker 1: we should be scared. That is really that's a really

2017
01:54:49,360 --> 01:54:56,480
Speaker 1: concerning statistic, and especially looking at how we are going

2018
01:54:56,600 --> 01:55:00,240
Speaker 1: to be and already are a haven state, we are

2019
01:55:00,280 --> 01:55:01,920
Speaker 1: going to be a haven state for all the states

2020
01:55:01,960 --> 01:55:05,040
Speaker 1: around US and for people throughout the United States. So

2021
01:55:05,320 --> 01:55:08,920
Speaker 1: what is that saying when we are a haven state,

2022
01:55:09,440 --> 01:55:12,879
Speaker 1: yet we are still competing with our local anti abortion

2023
01:55:12,920 --> 01:55:15,960
Speaker 1: strategies ourselves, we are still putting up a fight as

2024
01:55:16,000 --> 01:55:19,560
Speaker 1: a haven state, and I think that is so concerning. UM.

2025
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:23,880
Speaker 1: And even further, just to give some more statistics, we

2026
01:55:24,040 --> 01:55:30,400
Speaker 1: know that of the clinics that CPCs that did not

2027
01:55:30,560 --> 01:55:34,120
Speaker 1: offer SCI testing also will not refer out. We know

2028
01:55:34,280 --> 01:55:40,240
Speaker 1: that only eight offer HIV testing and that did not

2029
01:55:40,440 --> 01:55:44,200
Speaker 1: offer HIV testing also did not refer out. So just

2030
01:55:44,320 --> 01:55:47,360
Speaker 1: to summarize those numbers for you, what that data is

2031
01:55:47,440 --> 01:55:50,400
Speaker 1: telling me is that these clinics are not accounting for

2032
01:55:50,480 --> 01:55:53,400
Speaker 1: the health of the pregnant person, nor are the accounting

2033
01:55:53,440 --> 01:55:55,520
Speaker 1: for the health of the fetus if that pregnancy goes

2034
01:55:55,560 --> 01:55:59,360
Speaker 1: full term. And yeah, I mean I have even you know,

2035
01:56:00,080 --> 01:56:03,360
Speaker 1: more stats as you know your reproductive health nerd um

2036
01:56:03,520 --> 01:56:05,920
Speaker 1: of one of my favorite research institutes called the gut

2037
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:09,720
Speaker 1: Mocker Institute, and they are phenomenal and have really great

2038
01:56:10,320 --> 01:56:12,720
Speaker 1: data UM. And if you haven't checked out their website,

2039
01:56:12,800 --> 01:56:17,040
Speaker 1: you definitely should. UM. But since we're on the bandwagon

2040
01:56:17,120 --> 01:56:21,320
Speaker 1: of talking about religious based affiliations, we know that seventeen

2041
01:56:21,440 --> 01:56:30,360
Speaker 1: percent of abortion patients are oh sorry, um okay um.

2042
01:56:30,640 --> 01:56:36,240
Speaker 1: Seventeen percent of abortion patients identified themselves as mainline Protestant,

2043
01:56:38,000 --> 01:56:42,400
Speaker 1: as evangelical Protestant, and percent is Catholic. Thirty eight percent

2044
01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:45,839
Speaker 1: have no religious affiliation, and the remaining eight percent reported

2045
01:56:45,880 --> 01:56:51,560
Speaker 1: a different religious affiliation. So let's summarize that religiously affiliated

2046
01:56:51,600 --> 01:56:54,240
Speaker 1: people are still seeking abortions too. Would you look at

2047
01:56:54,320 --> 01:56:59,280
Speaker 1: that ignorance is so bliss. We know that abortions are

2048
01:56:59,280 --> 01:57:03,520
Speaker 1: affecting people who are living in poverty and who are

2049
01:57:03,560 --> 01:57:07,120
Speaker 1: low income. So we know se of people that are

2050
01:57:07,160 --> 01:57:10,760
Speaker 1: seeking abortions are either living in poverty or our low

2051
01:57:10,840 --> 01:57:15,560
Speaker 1: income UM. And fortunately, you know, throughout the past, we

2052
01:57:15,640 --> 01:57:19,680
Speaker 1: know that Medicaid has been a really big funder of

2053
01:57:19,960 --> 01:57:23,080
Speaker 1: abortion care UM, and especially we can say that in

2054
01:57:23,200 --> 01:57:31,839
Speaker 1: California too, UM, that about of abortion patients are using Medicaid,

2055
01:57:32,080 --> 01:57:35,440
Speaker 1: and that's throughout fifteen different states. So I imagine in

2056
01:57:35,560 --> 01:57:38,800
Speaker 1: this time, right now too, that number is probably going

2057
01:57:38,880 --> 01:57:42,440
Speaker 1: to decrease. UM. So again, talking about a haven state

2058
01:57:42,480 --> 01:57:46,000
Speaker 1: that has these resources, we are probably going to be

2059
01:57:47,600 --> 01:57:51,880
Speaker 1: mixing up how that looks UM. And knowing that fifty

2060
01:57:51,920 --> 01:57:54,560
Speaker 1: three percent of abortion patients pay out of pocket for

2061
01:57:54,640 --> 01:58:01,120
Speaker 1: their procedures is already a very concerning statistics. And so

2062
01:58:01,640 --> 01:58:05,720
Speaker 1: we are seeing how in our time right now, we

2063
01:58:05,960 --> 01:58:09,720
Speaker 1: have to be looking at different resources for people. We

2064
01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:12,400
Speaker 1: have to put on our activist hats, we have to

2065
01:58:12,440 --> 01:58:15,240
Speaker 1: be supporting our community, and we have to be supporting

2066
01:58:15,280 --> 01:58:18,400
Speaker 1: abortion funds because already fifty three percent of abortions are

2067
01:58:18,400 --> 01:58:23,880
Speaker 1: paid out of pocket. Um. And just to to summarize one,

2068
01:58:23,920 --> 01:58:28,280
Speaker 1: more point eight percent of people who are using abortion

2069
01:58:28,360 --> 01:58:31,040
Speaker 1: services are going to be using those within the first

2070
01:58:31,080 --> 01:58:35,440
Speaker 1: twelve weeks. So um, we are needing to see a

2071
01:58:35,480 --> 01:58:42,000
Speaker 1: lot of activism around abortion pill distribution and abortion pill

2072
01:58:43,120 --> 01:58:47,800
Speaker 1: education and what that looks like. No, the to like

2073
01:58:47,960 --> 01:58:50,640
Speaker 1: piggyback off of what Robert was mentioning earlier about how

2074
01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:53,080
Speaker 1: it just feels like they're taking advantage of the fact that,

2075
01:58:53,160 --> 01:58:55,520
Speaker 1: like things cost so much money. And I feel like,

2076
01:58:55,600 --> 01:58:58,960
Speaker 1: if you this work is so important because I don't

2077
01:58:59,000 --> 01:59:01,840
Speaker 1: think a lot of people know what they're getting into.

2078
01:59:01,960 --> 01:59:04,880
Speaker 1: If they're like, because we don't have a great education

2079
01:59:04,960 --> 01:59:07,360
Speaker 1: system in general, let alone about like reproductive health or

2080
01:59:07,440 --> 01:59:09,480
Speaker 1: like what happens when you get pregnant. So if you're

2081
01:59:09,520 --> 01:59:12,560
Speaker 1: a young person or mean any age and you are

2082
01:59:12,640 --> 01:59:15,040
Speaker 1: desperate or you're feeling shame, you don't have support from

2083
01:59:15,040 --> 01:59:18,280
Speaker 1: your community or something, and you see an institution that's

2084
01:59:18,320 --> 01:59:21,440
Speaker 1: like free ultrasound or like whatever, it's like they're praying

2085
01:59:21,480 --> 01:59:25,600
Speaker 1: on this desperation. And I think one of the only

2086
01:59:25,680 --> 01:59:27,440
Speaker 1: things you can do to combat that is like try

2087
01:59:27,480 --> 01:59:31,480
Speaker 1: to educate people as much as possible that like, I

2088
01:59:31,520 --> 01:59:35,680
Speaker 1: don't know, people are as um they don't have the

2089
01:59:35,760 --> 01:59:38,200
Speaker 1: good will and good faith that they present to be

2090
01:59:38,400 --> 01:59:41,240
Speaker 1: to have and I guess it just like ultimately you

2091
01:59:41,280 --> 01:59:43,840
Speaker 1: have to be distrusting of people. And maybe that's sad,

2092
01:59:43,960 --> 01:59:48,960
Speaker 1: but it's the truth. Yeah, definitely, And I will say

2093
01:59:49,000 --> 01:59:51,720
Speaker 1: I feel like I saw that as a service provider.

2094
01:59:52,240 --> 01:59:55,959
Speaker 1: Um So, as I mentioned, I worked in homeless services,

2095
01:59:56,080 --> 01:59:59,080
Speaker 1: specifically with youth homeless services, and you see that so much.

2096
01:59:59,160 --> 02:00:04,120
Speaker 1: You see how there is you know, medical oppression for

2097
02:00:04,240 --> 02:00:09,000
Speaker 1: people of color. There is medical manipulation and violence for

2098
02:00:09,920 --> 02:00:14,760
Speaker 1: so many people in vulnerable situations. And as someone that

2099
02:00:14,840 --> 02:00:22,160
Speaker 1: has accompanied many people to abortions and births, I have

2100
02:00:22,600 --> 02:00:27,560
Speaker 1: observed that myself and I have seen how so more

2101
02:00:27,720 --> 02:00:30,520
Speaker 1: people than not are going to experience some type of

2102
02:00:30,640 --> 02:00:34,160
Speaker 1: medical manipulation, and especially if you are living in poverty,

2103
02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:36,800
Speaker 1: especially if you're a person of color, especially if you're

2104
02:00:36,880 --> 02:00:41,880
Speaker 1: lgbt q i A. This this issue does not just stop,

2105
02:00:41,960 --> 02:00:45,320
Speaker 1: you know, with CPCs. If we take out all the CPCs,

2106
02:00:45,360 --> 02:00:48,080
Speaker 1: we also have to address so much of the institutional

2107
02:00:48,440 --> 02:00:52,880
Speaker 1: institutionalized racism and all the things that exist around reproductive

2108
02:00:52,920 --> 02:00:57,640
Speaker 1: health UM, you know, starting at how to get contraceptives too,

2109
02:00:58,440 --> 02:01:00,480
Speaker 1: when can you have children and how can you be

2110
02:01:00,560 --> 02:01:04,560
Speaker 1: a parent, and that never ends throughout the cycle, you know,

2111
02:01:04,640 --> 02:01:08,240
Speaker 1: and that parents even after they have babies, even if

2112
02:01:08,280 --> 02:01:11,080
Speaker 1: they are a person of color, even if they are

2113
02:01:11,240 --> 02:01:13,080
Speaker 1: l g B t q A, you know, they are

2114
02:01:13,160 --> 02:01:16,400
Speaker 1: still told how, when, where they're going to parent UM.

2115
02:01:16,480 --> 02:01:19,480
Speaker 1: And there's so much control over that rhetoric for people.

2116
02:01:20,080 --> 02:01:22,600
Speaker 1: So you know, I mean that even goes back to

2117
02:01:22,800 --> 02:01:29,000
Speaker 1: me thinking about the sterilization trials that happened against USC

2118
02:01:29,320 --> 02:01:32,880
Speaker 1: and the seventies and how women were forcibly sterilized, and

2119
02:01:34,080 --> 02:01:36,440
Speaker 1: you know that has nothing to do with CPCs. But

2120
02:01:36,560 --> 02:01:40,080
Speaker 1: instead we're seeing that institutions are finding this control and

2121
02:01:40,160 --> 02:01:44,120
Speaker 1: having these agendas, and it is not serving our society.

2122
02:01:44,360 --> 02:01:47,760
Speaker 1: It is not serving our health and instead it is

2123
02:01:47,960 --> 02:01:52,600
Speaker 1: creating more trauma in our communities and it's it's crisis.

2124
02:01:52,680 --> 02:01:57,600
Speaker 1: Pregnancy centers are just one of many layers of medical

2125
02:01:57,640 --> 02:02:01,120
Speaker 1: oppression that we are witnessing in today's world. As a

2126
02:02:01,200 --> 02:02:07,839
Speaker 1: person who was working in homeless services, I was program

2127
02:02:07,960 --> 02:02:10,560
Speaker 1: planning for a lot of the resources that we were

2128
02:02:10,600 --> 02:02:14,920
Speaker 1: able to provide access to for my clients. So all

2129
02:02:14,960 --> 02:02:17,240
Speaker 1: of my clients at that time when I was running

2130
02:02:17,240 --> 02:02:20,600
Speaker 1: the Pregnant Parenting program at a nonprofit, they were either

2131
02:02:20,760 --> 02:02:26,480
Speaker 1: pregnant and or parenting while also experiencing their housing insecurities UM,

2132
02:02:27,480 --> 02:02:31,840
Speaker 1: so I strived to find what the proper resources were

2133
02:02:31,920 --> 02:02:35,880
Speaker 1: for them to support them in every trauma informed way

2134
02:02:35,960 --> 02:02:39,520
Speaker 1: I possibly could, and that were youth friendly. So there

2135
02:02:39,680 --> 02:02:42,960
Speaker 1: was a local agency that was very very close to

2136
02:02:43,080 --> 02:02:47,560
Speaker 1: where I worked UM and their services always kind of

2137
02:02:47,640 --> 02:02:51,040
Speaker 1: felt like limited to me. So I met with them

2138
02:02:51,160 --> 02:02:54,200
Speaker 1: specifically to enquire because they were always trying to find

2139
02:02:54,320 --> 02:02:56,920
Speaker 1: some type of partnership with us and would knock on

2140
02:02:56,960 --> 02:02:59,680
Speaker 1: our door or call me. So I finally was able

2141
02:02:59,720 --> 02:03:04,120
Speaker 1: to get of them some of my time UM and

2142
02:03:06,000 --> 02:03:08,960
Speaker 1: so their services always felt limited and non comprehensive, and

2143
02:03:09,040 --> 02:03:12,800
Speaker 1: I think that is the biggest kind of like takeaway UM.

2144
02:03:12,960 --> 02:03:17,200
Speaker 1: They always gave me really weird reasoning why they didn't

2145
02:03:17,240 --> 02:03:21,440
Speaker 1: provide birth control or STI testing, and based on their answer,

2146
02:03:21,560 --> 02:03:24,080
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, I just did not allow the partnership

2147
02:03:24,200 --> 02:03:27,120
Speaker 1: to thrive. So when I did more research, I actually

2148
02:03:27,200 --> 02:03:31,200
Speaker 1: confirmed from another service provider that there from another agency

2149
02:03:31,480 --> 02:03:35,280
Speaker 1: that they were indeed a CPC before I could spread

2150
02:03:35,320 --> 02:03:38,960
Speaker 1: the word. They also already had several partnerships with other

2151
02:03:39,080 --> 02:03:42,840
Speaker 1: homeless service providers, so they wiggled their way in UM.

2152
02:03:43,040 --> 02:03:46,000
Speaker 1: And these other homeless service providers were also working with

2153
02:03:46,160 --> 02:03:49,800
Speaker 1: young vulnerable clients. So one day I was actually invited

2154
02:03:49,840 --> 02:03:54,360
Speaker 1: by another agency to come to this presentation where I

2155
02:03:54,480 --> 02:03:59,720
Speaker 1: didn't realize happened to be the CPC. UM. The CPC

2156
02:03:59,880 --> 02:04:03,200
Speaker 1: was presenting at this organization and it was one of

2157
02:04:03,240 --> 02:04:08,320
Speaker 1: their outreach workers explaining what their services were. So I

2158
02:04:08,480 --> 02:04:12,240
Speaker 1: took it upon myself to make sure that I sat

2159
02:04:12,320 --> 02:04:16,760
Speaker 1: in that meeting and I asked questions in the room

2160
02:04:16,920 --> 02:04:19,560
Speaker 1: with the other service providers. I think they're about thirty

2161
02:04:19,600 --> 02:04:23,560
Speaker 1: other service providers that were present, and I asked out loud,

2162
02:04:23,840 --> 02:04:27,240
Speaker 1: why doesn't your clinic provide birth control? And the woman

2163
02:04:27,640 --> 02:04:30,840
Speaker 1: from the CPC who was the outreach worker said, we

2164
02:04:31,040 --> 02:04:34,760
Speaker 1: can't give paps mirrors, so we're unable to provide birth control.

2165
02:04:36,240 --> 02:04:39,440
Speaker 1: If you know anything side note if you know, yeah,

2166
02:04:39,520 --> 02:04:45,040
Speaker 1: I already see the questioning, which I'm glad I received

2167
02:04:45,120 --> 02:04:50,320
Speaker 1: that reaction, because that is the exact reaction audience, those

2168
02:04:50,360 --> 02:04:56,040
Speaker 1: of us with yours, all of our heads tilted, squinting.

2169
02:04:57,760 --> 02:05:06,240
Speaker 1: U exactly explain how that math doesn't work? Yeah, exactly.

2170
02:05:06,640 --> 02:05:08,920
Speaker 1: Side note for all the listeners, if you know anything

2171
02:05:08,920 --> 02:05:10,720
Speaker 1: about health care, you know that a PAPS is not

2172
02:05:10,840 --> 02:05:14,200
Speaker 1: associated with being able to be prescribed birth control. So

2173
02:05:14,400 --> 02:05:19,440
Speaker 1: as someone that has background in healthcare, has a master's

2174
02:05:19,480 --> 02:05:24,320
Speaker 1: in public health, worked as a due lah. I continue

2175
02:05:24,360 --> 02:05:27,000
Speaker 1: to push back during the presentation, and it was very

2176
02:05:27,120 --> 02:05:29,440
Speaker 1: very clear that I was onto something. Um. So this

2177
02:05:29,560 --> 02:05:32,240
Speaker 1: woman again, she would always try to come around, give

2178
02:05:32,280 --> 02:05:35,840
Speaker 1: me pamphlets, try to have us partner and say she

2179
02:05:35,880 --> 02:05:38,360
Speaker 1: really want to work with us in our youth. Um.

2180
02:05:38,760 --> 02:05:41,040
Speaker 1: She stopped after that presentation. I can tell you that.

2181
02:05:41,640 --> 02:05:43,640
Speaker 1: But anyway, so I keep going. I reach out to

2182
02:05:43,760 --> 02:05:46,879
Speaker 1: a the person who organized that presentation for the CPC

2183
02:05:47,040 --> 02:05:49,880
Speaker 1: outreach person to attend and speak at. So I was like,

2184
02:05:49,960 --> 02:05:51,200
Speaker 1: I need to get to the bottom of this, and

2185
02:05:51,280 --> 02:05:54,600
Speaker 1: I need to spread this word UM and tell people, Hey,

2186
02:05:54,680 --> 02:05:57,760
Speaker 1: you're getting people from CPCs to come and speak to

2187
02:05:57,840 --> 02:06:04,280
Speaker 1: you to advertise your services is UM. So I see

2188
02:06:04,280 --> 02:06:07,480
Speaker 1: a seed a lot of the other service providers, and

2189
02:06:07,680 --> 02:06:10,440
Speaker 1: I expressed my genuine concerns the lack of evidence based

2190
02:06:10,480 --> 02:06:14,560
Speaker 1: comprehensive care they provided. But unfortunately, the person who I

2191
02:06:14,680 --> 02:06:17,680
Speaker 1: emailed said, clients need to make sure those decisions are

2192
02:06:17,760 --> 02:06:21,040
Speaker 1: their own, so they can decide if they want to

2193
02:06:21,120 --> 02:06:23,000
Speaker 1: go or if they don't want to go. We can't

2194
02:06:23,040 --> 02:06:24,560
Speaker 1: force them to say yes or no to go to

2195
02:06:24,600 --> 02:06:28,440
Speaker 1: a health care facility. So I responded by asking, but

2196
02:06:28,520 --> 02:06:30,080
Speaker 1: what if you thought you were seeing a doctor for

2197
02:06:30,160 --> 02:06:31,960
Speaker 1: your health care needs and then it turns out the

2198
02:06:32,000 --> 02:06:35,440
Speaker 1: health care provider is providing misinformation and might not even

2199
02:06:35,480 --> 02:06:38,360
Speaker 1: be a healthcare provider. UM. I never got a response

2200
02:06:38,440 --> 02:06:40,600
Speaker 1: from them, but I still continue to make sure that

2201
02:06:40,600 --> 02:06:42,480
Speaker 1: I was reaching out to everyone at that meeting and

2202
02:06:42,640 --> 02:06:45,640
Speaker 1: just raising awareness behind it UM. And then I wanted

2203
02:06:45,640 --> 02:06:48,080
Speaker 1: to take it to UM. I wanted to take it

2204
02:06:48,160 --> 02:06:51,600
Speaker 1: a notch up, so I called both of this. Both

2205
02:06:51,640 --> 02:06:54,760
Speaker 1: of the locations of the CPC. One is located in Westwood,

2206
02:06:54,840 --> 02:06:57,240
Speaker 1: side note next to u c l A. The other

2207
02:06:57,320 --> 02:07:00,440
Speaker 1: one was in South l A side note, community of color.

2208
02:07:01,200 --> 02:07:03,920
Speaker 1: Both of my calls led me to the person on

2209
02:07:04,000 --> 02:07:05,680
Speaker 1: the phone telling me that they don't know where to

2210
02:07:05,760 --> 02:07:07,720
Speaker 1: send me for an abortion and that they didn't know

2211
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:11,360
Speaker 1: what what planned parenthood was, what they did, or where

2212
02:07:11,440 --> 02:07:15,600
Speaker 1: they relocated when I specifically asked. So they were obviously

2213
02:07:15,720 --> 02:07:18,760
Speaker 1: circumventing the ability to even talk about abortions and what

2214
02:07:18,960 --> 02:07:22,960
Speaker 1: it was um and that was all the concern that

2215
02:07:23,040 --> 02:07:26,920
Speaker 1: I genuinely needed. So in my present day, I'm still

2216
02:07:27,120 --> 02:07:31,800
Speaker 1: concerned with these clinics, this specific clinic that is local

2217
02:07:31,920 --> 02:07:35,120
Speaker 1: to me. I recently found out that in my present

2218
02:07:35,280 --> 02:07:39,280
Speaker 1: day work, there are currently three treatment centers that are

2219
02:07:39,440 --> 02:07:43,600
Speaker 1: using this crisis pregnancy center as a resource. So hopefully

2220
02:07:43,720 --> 02:07:46,280
Speaker 1: that means more to come because I will be working

2221
02:07:46,360 --> 02:07:49,160
Speaker 1: on this and in this scenario, what I am doing

2222
02:07:49,240 --> 02:07:51,160
Speaker 1: as an activist and as a person who cares for

2223
02:07:51,240 --> 02:07:54,320
Speaker 1: my community is I will be educating these treatment centers

2224
02:07:54,560 --> 02:07:57,520
Speaker 1: about what crisis pregnancy centers are and how they can

2225
02:07:57,560 --> 02:08:01,760
Speaker 1: avoid them and what comprehensive services actually look like. Have

2226
02:08:01,880 --> 02:08:07,160
Speaker 1: there been more sort of widespread like organizations who are

2227
02:08:07,200 --> 02:08:12,280
Speaker 1: working too like a let people know what they are

2228
02:08:12,440 --> 02:08:14,640
Speaker 1: and then be also trying to get them like not

2229
02:08:14,880 --> 02:08:18,520
Speaker 1: to be funded. Absolutely, there are and we need to

2230
02:08:18,600 --> 02:08:23,720
Speaker 1: shout them out. UM. There are. There is an abortion

2231
02:08:23,880 --> 02:08:28,680
Speaker 1: fund UM in California called Access. They are wonderful UM.

2232
02:08:29,040 --> 02:08:35,600
Speaker 1: They provide abortion advocacy and awareness and education and they

2233
02:08:35,720 --> 02:08:41,800
Speaker 1: also provide direct services UM and fund different They have

2234
02:08:41,840 --> 02:08:45,120
Speaker 1: fund abortions in different capacities, so they might be funding

2235
02:08:45,200 --> 02:08:48,600
Speaker 1: the abortion services, the lodging, the transportation, and even a doula.

2236
02:08:49,520 --> 02:08:53,400
Speaker 1: And they partner with a lot of other agencies that

2237
02:08:53,520 --> 02:08:57,880
Speaker 1: are doing the work. The agency is called Reproductive Transparency

2238
02:08:58,000 --> 02:09:02,560
Speaker 1: Now and they are a ship cargo based nonprofit. They

2239
02:09:02,760 --> 02:09:10,080
Speaker 1: provide a lot of information, data, awareness research UM to

2240
02:09:10,280 --> 02:09:14,120
Speaker 1: raise awareness around what CPCs are and why we should

2241
02:09:14,160 --> 02:09:17,160
Speaker 1: be avoiding them. And I think I can say that

2242
02:09:17,280 --> 02:09:19,520
Speaker 1: I have the same goal as them in my personal life,

2243
02:09:19,600 --> 02:09:22,080
Speaker 1: but to ensure that they do not exist and are

2244
02:09:22,120 --> 02:09:25,160
Speaker 1: all shut down. UM. So they are wonderful. I would

2245
02:09:25,240 --> 02:09:30,880
Speaker 1: highly suggest looking into Reproductive Transparency Now and also Active

2246
02:09:31,560 --> 02:09:36,280
Speaker 1: Sorry Access Reproductive Justice UM who are doing a lot

2247
02:09:36,360 --> 02:09:40,000
Speaker 1: of really great work. And then I also do want

2248
02:09:40,040 --> 02:09:46,600
Speaker 1: to squeeze in other resources for people as well. Yeah, UM.

2249
02:09:47,680 --> 02:09:50,200
Speaker 1: And you know, as I mentioned first and foremost, I

2250
02:09:50,240 --> 02:09:51,960
Speaker 1: think the number one thing we need to know is

2251
02:09:52,040 --> 02:09:56,400
Speaker 1: that crisis pregnancy center should not exist in any capacity. UM.

2252
02:09:56,720 --> 02:10:00,240
Speaker 1: But if you are a person who's providing resource, is

2253
02:10:00,680 --> 02:10:04,959
Speaker 1: who is working with clients, who works in healthcare treatment centers,

2254
02:10:05,360 --> 02:10:12,400
Speaker 1: wouldever it be, please utilize Crisis Pregnancy Center map dot com. Again,

2255
02:10:12,520 --> 02:10:16,840
Speaker 1: this is the the website that was created by two

2256
02:10:16,880 --> 02:10:20,880
Speaker 1: associate professors at University of Georgia, and I want to

2257
02:10:20,960 --> 02:10:25,240
Speaker 1: make sure that this spreads far and wide, UM, because

2258
02:10:25,320 --> 02:10:28,840
Speaker 1: it will be the matter of providing referrals and circumventing

2259
02:10:28,920 --> 02:10:32,080
Speaker 1: CPCs UM. And I want to acknowledge that a lot

2260
02:10:32,160 --> 02:10:35,920
Speaker 1: of my data from this, from the information that I've

2261
02:10:35,920 --> 02:10:40,200
Speaker 1: been speaking on, is from the Crisis Pregnancy Center Map

2262
02:10:40,280 --> 02:10:47,720
Speaker 1: dot com UM, and from Reproductive Transparency as well. UM.

2263
02:10:47,880 --> 02:10:52,200
Speaker 1: So first and foremost that map is a necessity. UM.

2264
02:10:52,600 --> 02:10:56,360
Speaker 1: Another resource that I would like to share to be

2265
02:10:56,440 --> 02:11:01,800
Speaker 1: able to find your state's abortion fund is abortion Funds

2266
02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:05,760
Speaker 1: dot org and you can search state by state, so

2267
02:11:06,160 --> 02:11:10,040
Speaker 1: you know, I'm in California, so that's going to be access. Again,

2268
02:11:10,320 --> 02:11:12,600
Speaker 1: an organization that is an abortion fund, but they do

2269
02:11:12,760 --> 02:11:18,360
Speaker 1: more than than fund abortions. UM. I also really encourage

2270
02:11:18,480 --> 02:11:24,440
Speaker 1: people to find their local evidence based du lahs midwives

2271
02:11:24,880 --> 02:11:27,760
Speaker 1: women's health practitioners near them. And I know that there's

2272
02:11:28,200 --> 02:11:30,040
Speaker 1: a lot of fear existing right now due to the

2273
02:11:30,080 --> 02:11:33,880
Speaker 1: inappropriate politicians that are making disgusting decisions, but know that

2274
02:11:34,040 --> 02:11:36,920
Speaker 1: abortion pills can be access and there are people that

2275
02:11:37,040 --> 02:11:41,440
Speaker 1: can help guide you through. UM. So I would say

2276
02:11:42,840 --> 02:11:46,320
Speaker 1: making sure that we are accessing the resources on a

2277
02:11:46,400 --> 02:11:50,680
Speaker 1: website called plan c pill dot com. It's a great

2278
02:11:50,760 --> 02:11:54,240
Speaker 1: resource where you can find where to purchase abortion pills

2279
02:11:54,840 --> 02:11:58,440
Speaker 1: and where to seek medical and legal support as well.

2280
02:11:59,320 --> 02:12:01,120
Speaker 1: So if you have a question about how to take

2281
02:12:01,240 --> 02:12:05,360
Speaker 1: medical abortion pills, or you need to understand the legality

2282
02:12:05,480 --> 02:12:08,480
Speaker 1: of your state and the area near you, you can

2283
02:12:09,880 --> 02:12:13,920
Speaker 1: you can look on this website UM as a resource. UM.

2284
02:12:14,120 --> 02:12:17,840
Speaker 1: I just also want to emphasize like what community care

2285
02:12:18,000 --> 02:12:20,960
Speaker 1: looks like right now. UM. If you're a person who

2286
02:12:21,000 --> 02:12:23,800
Speaker 1: can get pregnant, this is truly a time to seek

2287
02:12:23,880 --> 02:12:26,720
Speaker 1: preventative care. And I know that that's a loaded can

2288
02:12:26,840 --> 02:12:28,760
Speaker 1: of worms for a lot of people. So I just

2289
02:12:28,920 --> 02:12:31,920
Speaker 1: I really want to plug this in. If you would

2290
02:12:32,280 --> 02:12:34,640
Speaker 1: like to learn about pregnancy prevention, you can take a

2291
02:12:34,680 --> 02:12:37,560
Speaker 1: look at bedsider dot org to assess your needs. I

2292
02:12:37,600 --> 02:12:40,640
Speaker 1: would highly recommend pairing that with talking to a provider

2293
02:12:40,680 --> 02:12:43,600
Speaker 1: who understands your lifestyle and can support you with finding

2294
02:12:43,680 --> 02:12:46,400
Speaker 1: one that works best for you, because every single contraceptive

2295
02:12:46,480 --> 02:12:48,680
Speaker 1: is going to look a little different. If you're a

2296
02:12:48,720 --> 02:12:51,280
Speaker 1: person who does not like birth control, I want you

2297
02:12:51,360 --> 02:12:56,200
Speaker 1: to know to please still seek preventative methods UM, whether

2298
02:12:56,320 --> 02:12:59,080
Speaker 1: that's a barrier method or whether that's more so of

2299
02:12:59,160 --> 02:13:02,800
Speaker 1: a holistic good like fertility awareness method. I encourage you

2300
02:13:02,880 --> 02:13:05,000
Speaker 1: to still speak to someone you can trust to ensure

2301
02:13:05,040 --> 02:13:08,280
Speaker 1: you're using that method correctly. And again there are duelas

2302
02:13:08,320 --> 02:13:10,480
Speaker 1: and midwives that can help guide you in the right

2303
02:13:10,520 --> 02:13:15,600
Speaker 1: direction for holistic practices UM. And to continue on to

2304
02:13:15,720 --> 02:13:22,440
Speaker 1: my community UH, my community kind of recognition. I hope

2305
02:13:22,480 --> 02:13:25,280
Speaker 1: that this is also time where if it's feasible for

2306
02:13:25,440 --> 02:13:30,400
Speaker 1: you too, if you can't yourself, find UM friends and

2307
02:13:30,640 --> 02:13:34,800
Speaker 1: family that you trust and people around you UM to

2308
02:13:35,000 --> 02:13:37,200
Speaker 1: either receive yourself or to get it from other people.

2309
02:13:38,000 --> 02:13:40,920
Speaker 1: Have pregnancy tests around you, and make sure that if

2310
02:13:40,960 --> 02:13:43,480
Speaker 1: you feel like you might be pregnant UM, whether you

2311
02:13:43,560 --> 02:13:46,200
Speaker 1: are using an actual method or if you're not using

2312
02:13:46,240 --> 02:13:49,480
Speaker 1: a method, currently, make sure you very least have pregnancy

2313
02:13:49,560 --> 02:13:52,920
Speaker 1: tests around you, UM, so that you know you can

2314
02:13:53,040 --> 02:13:57,200
Speaker 1: detect early on if you are pregnant. UM. Normalize buying

2315
02:13:57,200 --> 02:14:00,840
Speaker 1: your friends pregnancy tests for their birthdays. I have. We

2316
02:14:00,960 --> 02:14:04,160
Speaker 1: just have to normalize that as a community, and normalize

2317
02:14:04,160 --> 02:14:07,200
Speaker 1: buying abortion pills in case someone you know might need

2318
02:14:07,320 --> 02:14:09,680
Speaker 1: them in the future, or it might be someone that

2319
02:14:09,760 --> 02:14:11,960
Speaker 1: you don't know who could use them. UM. And to

2320
02:14:12,040 --> 02:14:16,560
Speaker 1: have that accessible if that is feasible for you financially. Um.

2321
02:14:17,160 --> 02:14:20,080
Speaker 1: And then yeah, I think just to summarize, like, this

2322
02:14:20,280 --> 02:14:23,200
Speaker 1: is truly a time for community support and when the

2323
02:14:23,280 --> 02:14:26,080
Speaker 1: government doesn't support us, we we need to figure out

2324
02:14:26,400 --> 02:14:34,200
Speaker 1: unfortunately how and um, if you got the ability, go

2325
02:14:34,360 --> 02:14:39,000
Speaker 1: get uh, go get go get snipped. Uh. You know

2326
02:14:39,200 --> 02:14:45,600
Speaker 1: there's there's options out there. UM options. Yeah. I provide vasectomies.

2327
02:14:45,640 --> 02:14:47,320
Speaker 1: By the way, if you can just find me in

2328
02:14:47,400 --> 02:14:52,400
Speaker 1: my house. UM, I'm not good at it yet, but people,

2329
02:14:52,720 --> 02:14:54,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna not I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna

2330
02:14:54,560 --> 02:14:58,400
Speaker 1: figure it out. That room is for well. I got

2331
02:14:58,480 --> 02:15:00,560
Speaker 1: one of those. I got one of those sharp penning wheels,

2332
02:15:00,560 --> 02:15:03,800
Speaker 1: and my butter knives are pretty fucking they got a

2333
02:15:03,840 --> 02:15:07,640
Speaker 1: good edge. They got edge these days. It's genuinely incredibly disappointment.

2334
02:15:07,720 --> 02:15:10,400
Speaker 1: Disappointed you're not using the machete for this. This is

2335
02:15:10,480 --> 02:15:14,120
Speaker 1: this feels like a portrayal. Well, there's other reproductive healthcare

2336
02:15:14,160 --> 02:15:17,720
Speaker 1: I used the machete for, but that that that does

2337
02:15:17,800 --> 02:15:21,520
Speaker 1: have to do with crisis pregnancy centers action. Well, I'll

2338
02:15:21,560 --> 02:15:23,560
Speaker 1: have a bunch of referrals for you then, I know,

2339
02:15:23,720 --> 02:15:28,120
Speaker 1: or to send them. That that kind of leans into

2340
02:15:28,160 --> 02:15:35,080
Speaker 1: another topic I'm covering today. Unfortunately. Um well, thank you

2341
02:15:35,160 --> 02:15:37,120
Speaker 1: so much for coming on and for talking to us.

2342
02:15:37,200 --> 02:15:41,800
Speaker 1: This has been very enlightening. Um I wish uh it

2343
02:15:42,000 --> 02:15:44,400
Speaker 1: wasn't such a bleak subject. But people need to know

2344
02:15:45,160 --> 02:15:47,240
Speaker 1: the fox going on. People needed to know this a

2345
02:15:47,320 --> 02:15:51,320
Speaker 1: lot earlier. But you know, I mean broadly speaking, the

2346
02:15:51,400 --> 02:15:53,400
Speaker 1: thing I keep coming back to in this whole fight

2347
02:15:53,680 --> 02:15:57,960
Speaker 1: is the frustration of like the rest of us, like

2348
02:15:58,960 --> 02:16:01,120
Speaker 1: life is hard enough. There's so much going on. People

2349
02:16:01,160 --> 02:16:03,320
Speaker 1: are like busy trying to trying to get by, trying

2350
02:16:03,360 --> 02:16:05,200
Speaker 1: to do their lives, trying to like find pieces of

2351
02:16:05,280 --> 02:16:08,680
Speaker 1: happiness in the world. And there's this fucking group of

2352
02:16:10,040 --> 02:16:12,400
Speaker 1: the worst people in the country that have just made

2353
02:16:12,480 --> 02:16:18,000
Speaker 1: this made fucking access to reproductive healthcare up for everyone

2354
02:16:18,440 --> 02:16:20,920
Speaker 1: the focus of their entire life for thirty years, and

2355
02:16:22,040 --> 02:16:26,160
Speaker 1: unfortunately now we have to like do that make the

2356
02:16:26,240 --> 02:16:29,400
Speaker 1: opposite the focus of our lives because we kind of

2357
02:16:29,520 --> 02:16:32,640
Speaker 1: just not all of us obviously, like you've been in

2358
02:16:32,680 --> 02:16:34,200
Speaker 1: this fight for a while, but most of us kind

2359
02:16:34,240 --> 02:16:37,200
Speaker 1: of we're not paying as much attention as needed to

2360
02:16:37,240 --> 02:16:40,040
Speaker 1: be paid. Um, like most people in the I'm not

2361
02:16:40,120 --> 02:16:42,800
Speaker 1: trying to throw blame on folks, but like, clearly the

2362
02:16:42,920 --> 02:16:46,640
Speaker 1: majority of people in the country who support access to

2363
02:16:46,680 --> 02:16:50,080
Speaker 1: reproductive healthcare weren't paying enough attention, you know, Like that's

2364
02:16:50,120 --> 02:16:52,800
Speaker 1: the that's the only way to frame it totally. And

2365
02:16:53,080 --> 02:16:56,240
Speaker 1: it's almost as if we are picking up the mess

2366
02:16:57,000 --> 02:17:00,920
Speaker 1: that others are are creating. Um yeah. And you know,

2367
02:17:01,240 --> 02:17:06,040
Speaker 1: after experiencing COVID as a society, everyone's a public health

2368
02:17:06,080 --> 02:17:11,960
Speaker 1: professional now and a doctor. Um, so it's it's clearly, yeah,

2369
02:17:12,280 --> 02:17:18,160
Speaker 1: I'm sending referrals to you. Um yeah. And people have

2370
02:17:18,400 --> 02:17:21,240
Speaker 1: a lot of things to say. And with that being said,

2371
02:17:21,360 --> 02:17:25,120
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that that these are conversations being had.

2372
02:17:25,560 --> 02:17:27,720
Speaker 1: I'm glad that friends around me now who I have

2373
02:17:27,840 --> 02:17:30,600
Speaker 1: never known to talk about reproductive health are going there

2374
02:17:30,640 --> 02:17:34,760
Speaker 1: and talking about it and also opening the door up

2375
02:17:34,879 --> 02:17:37,640
Speaker 1: for you know, people like me to talk about evidence

2376
02:17:37,680 --> 02:17:41,560
Speaker 1: based practices and what the reality is and and who's

2377
02:17:41,600 --> 02:17:46,720
Speaker 1: doing the work, and um, everything that that focuses around

2378
02:17:46,879 --> 02:17:52,279
Speaker 1: reproductive health. So I I appreciate this conversation. I appreciate

2379
02:17:52,520 --> 02:17:57,640
Speaker 1: that there are podcasts discussing this information. It's necessary and

2380
02:17:57,840 --> 02:18:01,119
Speaker 1: these issues are not going anywhere, and you know, we're

2381
02:18:01,120 --> 02:18:04,000
Speaker 1: going a little backwards. So I really appreciate your time

2382
02:18:04,080 --> 02:18:06,720
Speaker 1: on this. Yeah, thank you for coming on the show.

2383
02:18:07,480 --> 02:18:10,800
Speaker 1: And um, all right, everybody, that's the fucking episode, So

2384
02:18:11,600 --> 02:18:33,720
Speaker 1: do something else. Oh all right, well go started. I

2385
02:18:33,800 --> 02:18:36,080
Speaker 1: like it. These intros are getting shorter free every time.

2386
02:18:36,520 --> 02:18:38,520
Speaker 1: You know, we've bended onto one syllable, so there's not

2387
02:18:38,600 --> 02:18:41,600
Speaker 1: much we can go fee there. You know what, an

2388
02:18:41,680 --> 02:18:45,960
Speaker 1: honest and honest man only needs one syllable, sometimes less,

2389
02:18:46,040 --> 02:18:48,440
Speaker 1: sometimes half a syllable. We'll eventually get this down to

2390
02:18:48,560 --> 02:18:51,320
Speaker 1: just grunts. That's really what I'm moving towards is an

2391
02:18:51,520 --> 02:18:55,519
Speaker 1: entirely shouldn't we be moving towards? Like telepathy? Yeah, telepathy?

2392
02:18:55,560 --> 02:18:57,920
Speaker 1: We don't even record a podcast where we just like

2393
02:18:58,040 --> 02:19:02,039
Speaker 1: put up trans with the information constantaneously, just a blank

2394
02:19:02,120 --> 02:19:07,640
Speaker 1: audio file that says, now think about farming. And I'm

2395
02:19:07,680 --> 02:19:10,240
Speaker 1: gonna say that that sounds very um, that sounds very

2396
02:19:10,360 --> 02:19:14,160
Speaker 1: sci fi. And that's my way of doing a slick

2397
02:19:14,240 --> 02:19:18,560
Speaker 1: segue here, because today we will be talking and I'm

2398
02:19:18,800 --> 02:19:21,720
Speaker 1: very excited to talk about this Um. She's one of

2399
02:19:21,800 --> 02:19:26,080
Speaker 1: my favorite authors. Um. You know, I really enjoyed discussing

2400
02:19:26,080 --> 02:19:31,480
Speaker 1: the idea is present in Huxley's work, but this one

2401
02:19:32,040 --> 02:19:34,120
Speaker 1: has a special place in my heart. Today we'll be

2402
02:19:34,160 --> 02:19:37,440
Speaker 1: taking a look at Octavia Butler's parable of the sewer

2403
02:19:37,720 --> 02:19:42,960
Speaker 1: and parable of the talents, and the idea is present within. Yes,

2404
02:19:44,120 --> 02:19:48,760
Speaker 1: back at you again with another podcast banger. But first

2405
02:19:48,800 --> 02:19:54,320
Speaker 1: of all, UM, Hi, I'm Andrew Um sometimes known as

2406
02:19:54,520 --> 02:19:58,760
Speaker 1: St Andrew. I'm kind of trying to rebrand as something else,

2407
02:19:58,879 --> 02:20:02,520
Speaker 1: still figuring that out, um, and you can find me

2408
02:20:02,600 --> 02:20:08,120
Speaker 1: on YouTube at st Andrewism. But this episode is not

2409
02:20:08,160 --> 02:20:13,840
Speaker 1: about me and my branding. This episode has about Octavia Butler,

2410
02:20:14,600 --> 02:20:20,920
Speaker 1: born and growing up in segregationary America. She became an

2411
02:20:21,040 --> 02:20:24,400
Speaker 1: award winning sci fi wathor um with a lot of

2412
02:20:25,200 --> 02:20:29,120
Speaker 1: influences and a lot of themes and ideas being covered

2413
02:20:29,240 --> 02:20:33,520
Speaker 1: in her work. Considering the very white male dominated scene

2414
02:20:33,560 --> 02:20:35,200
Speaker 1: that is sci fi. The fact that she was able

2415
02:20:35,200 --> 02:20:39,080
Speaker 1: to not only break into it, but also presents some

2416
02:20:39,280 --> 02:20:44,280
Speaker 1: things that I haven't been explored before, with angles that

2417
02:20:44,400 --> 02:20:50,400
Speaker 1: haven't really been explored before. UM really has touched a

2418
02:20:50,480 --> 02:20:55,400
Speaker 1: lot of people. She was somewhat after a futurist, but

2419
02:20:55,520 --> 02:20:59,200
Speaker 1: she was also very much UM. A lot of her

2420
02:20:59,200 --> 02:21:01,960
Speaker 1: stories really did UM. A lot of people have a

2421
02:21:02,000 --> 02:21:06,000
Speaker 1: lot of different backgrounds and and and histories, and she

2422
02:21:06,040 --> 02:21:11,360
Speaker 1: always managed to work aspects of herself into her main characters. UM.

2423
02:21:11,480 --> 02:21:16,000
Speaker 1: She was a big critic of hierarchies, which really draws

2424
02:21:16,080 --> 02:21:21,520
Speaker 1: me to her and UM. She also relatively has at

2425
02:21:21,560 --> 02:21:26,240
Speaker 1: times struggled with writer's block and depression. She wrote over

2426
02:21:26,360 --> 02:21:30,240
Speaker 1: two dozen essays, speeches, short stories, and novels and her

2427
02:21:30,320 --> 02:21:33,119
Speaker 1: time on this earth, but unfortunately she had a stroke

2428
02:21:33,320 --> 02:21:38,800
Speaker 1: and died in two thousand six. One of the or

2429
02:21:38,840 --> 02:21:42,440
Speaker 1: other two of the books that have had the most

2430
02:21:42,520 --> 02:21:44,080
Speaker 1: of whos that have had the most impact on me,

2431
02:21:44,600 --> 02:21:47,760
Speaker 1: And of course I haven't read her entire bibliography yet,

2432
02:21:47,879 --> 02:21:51,360
Speaker 1: but I hope to get to it. UM is part

2433
02:21:51,400 --> 02:21:54,600
Speaker 1: of the sewer right and you know, I think a

2434
02:21:54,600 --> 02:21:56,080
Speaker 1: lot of people have heard about it A gained a

2435
02:21:56,120 --> 02:22:01,400
Speaker 1: lot more relevance. Um after you know, as kind of patashi,

2436
02:22:01,480 --> 02:22:04,800
Speaker 1: we continue to accelerate as you know, we drew closer

2437
02:22:04,920 --> 02:22:11,800
Speaker 1: to the year that the book is setting, and regard

2438
02:22:11,840 --> 02:22:14,120
Speaker 1: to the second book, as we had you know, Trump

2439
02:22:14,200 --> 02:22:18,440
Speaker 1: come into office. Um. And I'll get into why that's

2440
02:22:18,480 --> 02:22:22,280
Speaker 1: relevant in a bit. In the first book, just to

2441
02:22:22,360 --> 02:22:27,320
Speaker 1: give a brief synopsis, global climate change and economic crisis

2442
02:22:27,480 --> 02:22:31,360
Speaker 1: has let a whole set of social crisis and chaos

2443
02:22:31,440 --> 02:22:35,440
Speaker 1: in the early twenties. Um. The book is set in California,

2444
02:22:35,879 --> 02:22:40,560
Speaker 1: and they are struggling with pervasive water shortages and masses

2445
02:22:40,760 --> 02:22:44,120
Speaker 1: of poor people will do basically anything to live to

2446
02:22:44,160 --> 02:22:49,280
Speaker 1: see another day. Everybody is struggling. So basically today in

2447
02:22:49,360 --> 02:22:54,520
Speaker 1: this setting, fifteen year old Lauren Lamina lives inside a

2448
02:22:54,640 --> 02:22:59,840
Speaker 1: gated community with her preacher father, family and neighbors, sheltered

2449
02:23:00,080 --> 02:23:04,680
Speaker 1: somewhat from the surrounding chios. However, when we get gates

2450
02:23:04,720 --> 02:23:06,440
Speaker 1: the community, now we think of you know, like really

2451
02:23:06,560 --> 02:23:11,640
Speaker 1: rich people, but in this case, gated community is just

2452
02:23:11,920 --> 02:23:14,880
Speaker 1: like a regular community that had to put up a

2453
02:23:14,920 --> 02:23:19,880
Speaker 1: bunch of walls to prevent like pyramede acts from like real. Yeah,

2454
02:23:20,360 --> 02:23:23,080
Speaker 1: it's like it's a suburb that used to be like

2455
02:23:23,400 --> 02:23:26,720
Speaker 1: a well off suburb, but as things got worse, it

2456
02:23:26,879 --> 02:23:30,360
Speaker 1: just turned into people hiding behind their walls because they

2457
02:23:30,400 --> 02:23:33,039
Speaker 1: were scared of poor folks, right Like it's there's an

2458
02:23:33,080 --> 02:23:35,800
Speaker 1: element of it that almost reads like a slasher movie

2459
02:23:36,000 --> 02:23:37,640
Speaker 1: in the opening of the book, which is one of

2460
02:23:37,720 --> 02:23:42,080
Speaker 1: the things that's really compelling about it. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,

2461
02:23:42,080 --> 02:23:45,959
Speaker 1: they really Um. She really gets you invested in the setting,

2462
02:23:46,280 --> 02:23:50,160
Speaker 1: in the character early on. And part of what really

2463
02:23:50,240 --> 02:23:52,760
Speaker 1: gets you invested in Lauren as a protagonist is the

2464
02:23:52,800 --> 02:23:58,000
Speaker 1: fact that she suffers from a unique vulnerability or strength

2465
02:23:58,040 --> 02:24:01,439
Speaker 1: depending on how you look at it, um oftentimes vulnerability,

2466
02:24:01,800 --> 02:24:07,520
Speaker 1: and that is hyper empathy syndrome, which is basically that

2467
02:24:07,680 --> 02:24:13,480
Speaker 1: she's able to feel others emotions, others pains. So when

2468
02:24:13,560 --> 02:24:17,640
Speaker 1: others are very very sad, she feels very very sad.

2469
02:24:18,160 --> 02:24:21,560
Speaker 1: When others are in pain, she feels that same excruciating

2470
02:24:21,640 --> 02:24:25,560
Speaker 1: pain um and so on and so forth, And so

2471
02:24:25,720 --> 02:24:29,160
Speaker 1: she has to find sort of navigate this chaosk Wood

2472
02:24:29,680 --> 02:24:35,160
Speaker 1: while dealing with this um, with this um disorder that

2473
02:24:35,760 --> 02:24:40,240
Speaker 1: she's struggling with. At the same time, though, she's also

2474
02:24:40,360 --> 02:24:44,720
Speaker 1: navigating faith and the ideal of faith and philosophy because

2475
02:24:45,120 --> 02:24:48,760
Speaker 1: her father is like a preacher, and he's the preacher

2476
02:24:48,959 --> 02:24:53,000
Speaker 1: of their little gated community, and so she has grown

2477
02:24:53,080 --> 02:24:55,720
Speaker 1: up in the church, but she also has found issues

2478
02:24:56,600 --> 02:24:59,760
Speaker 1: in um, the religion that she grew up in places

2479
02:24:59,800 --> 02:25:04,360
Speaker 1: where she thinks it is sort of lead people a street.

2480
02:25:04,360 --> 02:25:07,320
Speaker 1: And that's kind of also what is drawn me to

2481
02:25:07,440 --> 02:25:10,560
Speaker 1: Lauren as a character, because I too, you know, have

2482
02:25:11,120 --> 02:25:16,800
Speaker 1: had to negotiate and navigate that whole religious realm. And

2483
02:25:16,920 --> 02:25:20,119
Speaker 1: so that's basically the setting she's in this community. Um,

2484
02:25:20,360 --> 02:25:24,640
Speaker 1: it's chaos on the outside. She's navigating her higher empathy syndrome,

2485
02:25:24,840 --> 02:25:28,200
Speaker 1: and she's also dealing with the ideas of religion and

2486
02:25:29,120 --> 02:25:32,199
Speaker 1: change and so and so forth. So as she's there,

2487
02:25:32,760 --> 02:25:36,800
Speaker 1: UM sort of thinking internally, she's keeping this juno and

2488
02:25:36,879 --> 02:25:40,080
Speaker 1: she's developing this new system of thought which he calls

2489
02:25:40,160 --> 02:25:43,680
Speaker 1: earth Seed, and we're gonna get into eoth Seed. But

2490
02:25:43,800 --> 02:25:50,800
Speaker 1: it basically shapes uh the decisions that she makes and

2491
02:25:51,879 --> 02:25:55,800
Speaker 1: the outcome of both books and as well as how

2492
02:25:55,840 --> 02:26:00,920
Speaker 1: they progress throughout. The second book places her in I'm

2493
02:26:01,120 --> 02:26:04,240
Speaker 1: really trying not to spoil, which is difficult to do

2494
02:26:04,440 --> 02:26:07,640
Speaker 1: because the second book, Lea is directly after the first book,

2495
02:26:07,720 --> 02:26:10,720
Speaker 1: and so and so forth. But I'll try to speak

2496
02:26:10,760 --> 02:26:12,880
Speaker 1: in broad brushes because I really think people should go

2497
02:26:13,000 --> 02:26:20,120
Speaker 1: and read it as blind as possible, um Lauren. Of course,

2498
02:26:20,160 --> 02:26:22,120
Speaker 1: eventually we will get into spoilers, by the way, so

2499
02:26:22,440 --> 02:26:24,760
Speaker 1: I'll try to let folks know when we get into that.

2500
02:26:25,720 --> 02:26:29,800
Speaker 1: But in the second book, UM Lauren is working on

2501
02:26:30,040 --> 02:26:34,760
Speaker 1: a community UM founded on her faith earth Seed, and

2502
02:26:36,320 --> 02:26:40,840
Speaker 1: they begin to face persecution. I'll see, after the election

2503
02:26:41,160 --> 02:26:45,640
Speaker 1: of this ultra conservative president who vows to quote make

2504
02:26:45,760 --> 02:26:51,119
Speaker 1: America great again, being you know, a young black woman

2505
02:26:51,800 --> 02:26:56,600
Speaker 1: in a minority religious faction in the United States of America. UM,

2506
02:26:57,200 --> 02:27:02,840
Speaker 1: her colony becomes a target of President Jarrett's reign of terror. UM.

2507
02:27:02,920 --> 02:27:08,879
Speaker 1: And at the same time, Laurence future daughter is navigating

2508
02:27:11,080 --> 02:27:14,240
Speaker 1: the discovery of the mother that she didn't knew, that

2509
02:27:14,440 --> 02:27:17,280
Speaker 1: she didn't know through the journals that her mother kept

2510
02:27:17,440 --> 02:27:21,360
Speaker 1: through the years. And I think I'll leave it at that.

2511
02:27:23,480 --> 02:27:26,560
Speaker 1: There are a lot of themes that you know, Butler

2512
02:27:26,760 --> 02:27:33,440
Speaker 1: covers in these texts, UM, and in fact, I've seen

2513
02:27:33,480 --> 02:27:36,200
Speaker 1: them described as but Lerian, which I would agree with,

2514
02:27:36,320 --> 02:27:39,360
Speaker 1: because she covers them in other books of Who's as

2515
02:27:39,400 --> 02:27:42,880
Speaker 1: well in different ways. UM. She talks about poverty and

2516
02:27:43,040 --> 02:27:47,240
Speaker 1: slavery and freedom, just what perseverance. She navigates the this

2517
02:27:47,360 --> 02:27:52,280
Speaker 1: idea of community and what community means. What how community

2518
02:27:52,600 --> 02:27:57,560
Speaker 1: is both a balance of inclusion and exclusion at the

2519
02:27:57,600 --> 02:28:03,039
Speaker 1: same time, and also the whole cycle of creation, destruction,

2520
02:28:03,160 --> 02:28:14,160
Speaker 1: and rebirth that really defines human history right now, well,

2521
02:28:14,680 --> 02:28:18,039
Speaker 1: in that books, in the setting of that book, Um,

2522
02:28:18,879 --> 02:28:23,280
Speaker 1: slavery has made a comeback more than it already has.

2523
02:28:23,720 --> 02:28:27,080
Speaker 1: You know, you have these extreme forms of death slavery

2524
02:28:27,240 --> 02:28:32,560
Speaker 1: and marital slavery and probably even plantation slavery. UM. I

2525
02:28:32,640 --> 02:28:36,560
Speaker 1: believe plantation slavery is mentioned in the second book, UM.

2526
02:28:36,680 --> 02:28:38,879
Speaker 1: And of course the slavery is inflicted upon the poor,

2527
02:28:39,240 --> 02:28:42,840
Speaker 1: particular a lot of company town style slavery right where

2528
02:28:42,879 --> 02:28:46,480
Speaker 1: people are like bonded, bound to a specific location because

2529
02:28:46,520 --> 02:28:50,600
Speaker 1: of their employer who protects them in this increasingly dangerous,

2530
02:28:50,680 --> 02:28:56,160
Speaker 1: banded filled world exactly. And in this world, you know,

2531
02:28:56,360 --> 02:28:59,920
Speaker 1: race remains a factor. Even though these books are written

2532
02:29:00,160 --> 02:29:06,439
Speaker 1: in the eighties and nineties, I believe parabolos over ise

2533
02:29:06,840 --> 02:29:13,640
Speaker 1: and right again, like He's got or Butler has a

2534
02:29:13,800 --> 02:29:17,880
Speaker 1: character using the same phrase Trump would when the President say,

2535
02:29:17,920 --> 02:29:23,160
Speaker 1: on um, what is it twenty four years before the

2536
02:29:23,240 --> 02:29:27,240
Speaker 1: start of his campaign. Um hard to overstate the degree

2537
02:29:27,280 --> 02:29:28,760
Speaker 1: to which she was ahead of the curve on a

2538
02:29:28,840 --> 02:29:33,440
Speaker 1: lot of things, because I mean, to be fair, she

2539
02:29:33,640 --> 02:29:37,320
Speaker 1: knew America. Oh yeah, you know, she grew up in segregation.

2540
02:29:37,360 --> 02:29:41,560
Speaker 1: You're America. She had to deal with her mother was

2541
02:29:41,720 --> 02:29:45,080
Speaker 1: a domestic liberal, and so she had to go in

2542
02:29:46,040 --> 02:29:49,320
Speaker 1: with her mother in these rich white families places through

2543
02:29:49,360 --> 02:29:52,520
Speaker 1: the back door. Um. And you know, obviously that would

2544
02:29:52,520 --> 02:29:57,240
Speaker 1: have shaped how she saw herself and herself in relation

2545
02:29:58,360 --> 02:30:03,080
Speaker 1: to the wider world through to America as an idea.

2546
02:30:05,600 --> 02:30:10,520
Speaker 1: And so I think that as she's writing of this

2547
02:30:10,879 --> 02:30:14,280
Speaker 1: you know, sort of horrific future, she's drawing a lot

2548
02:30:14,480 --> 02:30:19,840
Speaker 1: from the horrific past, or rather America's horrific past, of

2549
02:30:19,920 --> 02:30:26,800
Speaker 1: which her history is apart. So Lauren, who is in

2550
02:30:26,959 --> 02:30:31,520
Speaker 1: some ways Octavia but herself inside Um, spends a lot

2551
02:30:31,560 --> 02:30:34,800
Speaker 1: of time in the book, in both books, allying with

2552
02:30:34,920 --> 02:30:39,360
Speaker 1: people who are also minorities, who come from mixed backgrounds,

2553
02:30:39,600 --> 02:30:45,680
Speaker 1: people who tend to be overlooked by the dominant Christian

2554
02:30:46,600 --> 02:30:53,640
Speaker 1: religious right white UM order. Because I believe she finds

2555
02:30:54,000 --> 02:30:58,280
Speaker 1: some sense of safety and strength in people who have

2556
02:30:58,640 --> 02:31:04,760
Speaker 1: been so line. Slavery also ends up affecting Lawrence community

2557
02:31:04,840 --> 02:31:08,240
Speaker 1: too um in many ways that I don't want to spoil.

2558
02:31:09,120 --> 02:31:15,040
Speaker 1: But despite it all, the theme of perseverance is really

2559
02:31:15,080 --> 02:31:22,400
Speaker 1: what carries the story alone. Lauren ultimately is the archetype

2560
02:31:22,640 --> 02:31:25,680
Speaker 1: of the persevera. You know, she preaches a sermon and

2561
02:31:25,760 --> 02:31:29,040
Speaker 1: the importance of perseverance. She tries to get others to

2562
02:31:29,080 --> 02:31:32,760
Speaker 1: see the importance of hard work, and she sticks to

2563
02:31:32,920 --> 02:31:37,840
Speaker 1: her coals no matter what happens, and a lot happens

2564
02:31:37,920 --> 02:31:42,920
Speaker 1: that would quite honestly discourage a lot of people, to

2565
02:31:43,000 --> 02:31:47,520
Speaker 1: put it lightly, and yet she perseveres. And so let's

2566
02:31:47,560 --> 02:31:52,120
Speaker 1: tie that in as well to American history. Particularly in

2567
02:31:52,240 --> 02:31:55,600
Speaker 1: the first book, she ends up having to make a

2568
02:31:55,720 --> 02:32:01,160
Speaker 1: journey north um to northern California, and throughout that journey,

2569
02:32:01,280 --> 02:32:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, she meets with other people and interacts with

2570
02:32:03,080 --> 02:32:10,240
Speaker 1: the people, She makes allies and avoids enemies, and you

2571
02:32:10,280 --> 02:32:13,600
Speaker 1: can honestly draw some parallels to the underground real road.

2572
02:32:14,200 --> 02:32:17,320
Speaker 1: Of course, it's not an exact one to one, but

2573
02:32:17,600 --> 02:32:20,400
Speaker 1: in the sense of having to work with people along

2574
02:32:20,400 --> 02:32:25,080
Speaker 1: the way to progress out of a terrible situation, a

2575
02:32:25,200 --> 02:32:29,640
Speaker 1: hellish situation for the Hoop, not the guarantee, but the

2576
02:32:29,720 --> 02:32:32,560
Speaker 1: hope of some form of salvation when you get to

2577
02:32:32,600 --> 02:32:34,879
Speaker 1: the end of the journey. She doesn't do it alone.

2578
02:32:34,959 --> 02:32:37,560
Speaker 1: She does it with others Um, and that's kind of

2579
02:32:37,640 --> 02:32:43,519
Speaker 1: what keeps her hope alive. But it's not just externals.

2580
02:32:43,560 --> 02:32:47,480
Speaker 1: She has a lot of intrinsic motivation to persevere, which

2581
02:32:47,520 --> 02:32:51,160
Speaker 1: is driven by her philosophy. I mean, I think one

2582
02:32:51,200 --> 02:32:54,240
Speaker 1: of the things, because there's there's a lot of meaning

2583
02:32:54,360 --> 02:32:56,440
Speaker 1: and why she picks the parable of the sower in

2584
02:32:56,480 --> 02:32:58,440
Speaker 1: the parable of the talents for and it's it's pretty

2585
02:32:58,440 --> 02:33:00,480
Speaker 1: obvious and necessary xt of the books. It's she's not

2586
02:33:00,600 --> 02:33:03,560
Speaker 1: like hiding it under layers or anything. But one of

2587
02:33:03,640 --> 02:33:07,160
Speaker 1: the things that in particular the second book deals with Um,

2588
02:33:07,400 --> 02:33:09,320
Speaker 1: I mean, in the first book to do a degree

2589
02:33:09,520 --> 02:33:15,080
Speaker 1: is kind of the the pointlessness of responding to dystopian

2590
02:33:15,240 --> 02:33:18,760
Speaker 1: change in society by just like hunkering down in a

2591
02:33:18,840 --> 02:33:21,680
Speaker 1: bunker and trying to hide from it and protect your family.

2592
02:33:22,240 --> 02:33:25,040
Speaker 1: Like one of the reoccurring themes is the degree to

2593
02:33:25,080 --> 02:33:27,360
Speaker 1: which that doesn't work. And one of the things that's

2594
02:33:27,360 --> 02:33:30,840
Speaker 1: really interesting about this is a dystopian novel. Um. This

2595
02:33:31,080 --> 02:33:33,840
Speaker 1: is a novel that is both of these novels are

2596
02:33:33,920 --> 02:33:37,400
Speaker 1: kind of imagining the collapse of a lot of aspects

2597
02:33:37,640 --> 02:33:40,360
Speaker 1: of American society, but it is not. At no point

2598
02:33:40,480 --> 02:33:44,520
Speaker 1: does the United States really collapse in these books, and

2599
02:33:44,720 --> 02:33:47,880
Speaker 1: and even like as much as authoritarianism is present, at

2600
02:33:47,920 --> 02:33:50,880
Speaker 1: no point is the government completely taken over and completely

2601
02:33:50,959 --> 02:33:54,279
Speaker 1: under the control of like a unified fascist regime or anything.

2602
02:33:54,959 --> 02:34:00,160
Speaker 1: Elections are still happen in company. Elections exist, but you

2603
02:34:00,160 --> 02:34:03,920
Speaker 1: said have to pay them to you know, to you

2604
02:34:04,879 --> 02:34:08,240
Speaker 1: and and the the like Christian death squad type things

2605
02:34:08,320 --> 02:34:11,480
Speaker 1: that are roaming around are distinctly non state actors. They

2606
02:34:11,560 --> 02:34:14,400
Speaker 1: have backing to as an extent from the state. They're

2607
02:34:14,440 --> 02:34:17,760
Speaker 1: not really opposed by it. But it's it's it's again.

2608
02:34:17,840 --> 02:34:20,400
Speaker 1: It's this thing that we we are actually dealing with

2609
02:34:20,600 --> 02:34:24,200
Speaker 1: where collapse doesn't look like okay, everything's fallen apart, and

2610
02:34:24,280 --> 02:34:27,160
Speaker 1: now it's whoever's got the strongest group of buddies, who

2611
02:34:27,240 --> 02:34:29,440
Speaker 1: can who can you know, do their best in the

2612
02:34:29,520 --> 02:34:31,920
Speaker 1: waste land. It's like no, no, no. It is about

2613
02:34:32,120 --> 02:34:36,520
Speaker 1: groups of people trying to navigate in an increasingly dysfunctional state.

2614
02:34:36,800 --> 02:34:40,560
Speaker 1: And the only way to actually survive that is um

2615
02:34:41,360 --> 02:34:44,000
Speaker 1: survivals complicated, and it's never as simple as just like

2616
02:34:44,160 --> 02:34:46,600
Speaker 1: picking a good farm to hide on. You know that

2617
02:34:46,800 --> 02:34:49,400
Speaker 1: that's that's not going to work out for exactly. I

2618
02:34:49,440 --> 02:34:51,760
Speaker 1: just want to point out as well, that's as just

2619
02:34:51,920 --> 02:34:55,120
Speaker 1: functional as things. People are still going to work, not

2620
02:34:55,240 --> 02:34:57,640
Speaker 1: just the people who you know in company talents or

2621
02:34:57,640 --> 02:35:00,080
Speaker 1: in debt bondage, but even Lawrence fathers. You know, he

2622
02:35:00,200 --> 02:35:03,640
Speaker 1: takes his bike every day and rides out into the

2623
02:35:03,840 --> 02:35:07,400
Speaker 1: chaos to go and work for a weege to come

2624
02:35:07,440 --> 02:35:10,040
Speaker 1: back and to try to support his family. And of

2625
02:35:10,120 --> 02:35:13,320
Speaker 1: course in this kid community we see that they attempts

2626
02:35:13,360 --> 02:35:16,880
Speaker 1: to stay gated. You know, it's also in a futile

2627
02:35:17,200 --> 02:35:20,520
Speaker 1: like the rich have their high security communities and be

2628
02:35:20,640 --> 02:35:25,880
Speaker 1: able to escape in helicopters when anything happens, but they

2629
02:35:25,959 --> 02:35:30,240
Speaker 1: have no security even in this illusion of security, and

2630
02:35:30,320 --> 02:35:33,720
Speaker 1: that hundering down strategy they were taken wasn't working. In

2631
02:35:33,760 --> 02:35:39,720
Speaker 1: the first half of the book really shows why. Yeah,

2632
02:35:40,120 --> 02:35:43,800
Speaker 1: it's um, it's it's a It's a book about collapse

2633
02:35:43,920 --> 02:35:50,880
Speaker 1: by somebody who's uh who, who grew up in a

2634
02:35:51,000 --> 02:35:54,920
Speaker 1: situation where her her childhood had a lot of elements

2635
02:35:55,040 --> 02:36:00,200
Speaker 1: of the collapse that many particularly like many folks are

2636
02:36:00,320 --> 02:36:02,720
Speaker 1: concerned about now, Like that's what she grew up in

2637
02:36:03,360 --> 02:36:07,920
Speaker 1: was there's no there's no protection. Violence can come from

2638
02:36:07,959 --> 02:36:11,080
Speaker 1: all sides and it's random, um, and you have no

2639
02:36:11,560 --> 02:36:14,800
Speaker 1: there are no guarantees in this like world that you've

2640
02:36:14,840 --> 02:36:16,800
Speaker 1: come into. Which is this thing that like people are

2641
02:36:16,840 --> 02:36:21,119
Speaker 1: freaking out about now as we encounter kind of aspects

2642
02:36:21,200 --> 02:36:24,000
Speaker 1: of the world order that we had grown up with

2643
02:36:24,360 --> 02:36:26,840
Speaker 1: that we feel like are falling apart. And I think

2644
02:36:26,879 --> 02:36:30,320
Speaker 1: the thing that's so compelling about Butler is her books

2645
02:36:30,400 --> 02:36:32,680
Speaker 1: kind of are coming from the perspective of someone for

2646
02:36:32,800 --> 02:36:38,920
Speaker 1: whom that order and that world were never real. Yeah. Yeah,

2647
02:36:39,720 --> 02:36:42,800
Speaker 1: And that's why her contributions to sci fi is so valuable,

2648
02:36:43,240 --> 02:36:44,800
Speaker 1: you know, because all of these sci fi writes us

2649
02:36:44,840 --> 02:36:47,960
Speaker 1: it's just like regular privileged white Kays and you know,

2650
02:36:48,000 --> 02:36:50,800
Speaker 1: and and they just come with that experience. And it

2651
02:36:51,080 --> 02:36:54,760
Speaker 1: isn't often um repeated critique of sci fi. Um you

2652
02:36:54,800 --> 02:36:57,520
Speaker 1: see didn't tweets themself sometimes, where like a lot of

2653
02:36:57,560 --> 02:37:00,920
Speaker 1: it is just like because they are like alien really

2654
02:37:00,959 --> 02:37:03,440
Speaker 1: did sci Fi? It's like, whoa, what if the things

2655
02:37:03,480 --> 02:37:06,320
Speaker 1: that white people did other people happen to white people?

2656
02:37:07,000 --> 02:37:10,840
Speaker 1: You know, Like this whole idea that these alien invasion.

2657
02:37:11,280 --> 02:37:15,280
Speaker 1: UM fears and alienvasion stories are just like what if

2658
02:37:15,320 --> 02:37:21,280
Speaker 1: clualism but too white people to rich countries, you know,

2659
02:37:21,920 --> 02:37:26,080
Speaker 1: mm hm. Another part of the reason that the attempt

2660
02:37:26,160 --> 02:37:33,560
Speaker 1: to hunker down and stuff and basically exclude others from

2661
02:37:33,600 --> 02:37:37,520
Speaker 1: their community failed is because, and Lauren rights this in

2662
02:37:37,560 --> 02:37:43,560
Speaker 1: her diary, exclusion breeds resentment among the excluded. So even

2663
02:37:43,640 --> 02:37:47,560
Speaker 1: though Lawrence neighborhood, while you know, gated and wall and stuff,

2664
02:37:47,879 --> 02:37:50,640
Speaker 1: was not particularly rich, just the mare fact that they

2665
02:37:50,680 --> 02:37:56,800
Speaker 1: had those walls up basically signaled to the outside world

2666
02:37:57,160 --> 02:38:01,959
Speaker 1: that they had something to hid, some sort of resources

2667
02:38:02,280 --> 02:38:05,720
Speaker 1: they wanted to safeguard, you know, the only thing they

2668
02:38:05,760 --> 02:38:07,800
Speaker 1: had to safeguard with themselves. Because a lot of the

2669
02:38:07,800 --> 02:38:11,080
Speaker 1: members the community were you know, unemployed and extremely poor,

2670
02:38:12,480 --> 02:38:17,680
Speaker 1: that alone sort of symbolized, uh, sort of sort of

2671
02:38:17,720 --> 02:38:24,720
Speaker 1: a beacon UM drawing people to eventually UM attack. And

2672
02:38:25,000 --> 02:38:29,840
Speaker 1: that's a slight spoiler, but yeah, and you know, despite

2673
02:38:32,160 --> 02:38:36,280
Speaker 1: the problems that exclusion and are causing UM, Lauren as

2674
02:38:36,360 --> 02:38:42,359
Speaker 1: she realizes that her community could not handle that approach.

2675
02:38:44,120 --> 02:38:46,520
Speaker 1: Even then as she's progressing your author and stuff, and

2676
02:38:46,600 --> 02:38:51,119
Speaker 1: she's to beating with herself, you know, who to bring

2677
02:38:51,240 --> 02:38:56,440
Speaker 1: into her fold exclusion and inclusion. They play a role.

2678
02:38:56,959 --> 02:39:01,160
Speaker 1: You know, Um, she has to find form bonds and

2679
02:39:01,440 --> 02:39:05,320
Speaker 1: you know, stay safe. But at the same time, the

2680
02:39:05,440 --> 02:39:08,840
Speaker 1: bonds that she forms could put her in danjil if

2681
02:39:09,440 --> 02:39:13,920
Speaker 1: she's betrayed, or if the people that she invests in

2682
02:39:14,320 --> 02:39:19,400
Speaker 1: end up being harmed in some way, because the harm

2683
02:39:19,480 --> 02:39:24,960
Speaker 1: that they experience will ultimately affect her as well. So,

2684
02:39:25,400 --> 02:39:30,200
Speaker 1: as Lauren is making her way up north, she is

2685
02:39:30,560 --> 02:39:34,680
Speaker 1: continuing to wrestle with this idea of inclusion and exclusion

2686
02:39:35,200 --> 02:39:37,600
Speaker 1: because as she's progressing north in hopes of you know,

2687
02:39:37,720 --> 02:39:41,600
Speaker 1: building a community of some kind, creating, joining, forming community

2688
02:39:41,680 --> 02:39:49,160
Speaker 1: or some kind, she's also forming and establishing her religion.

2689
02:39:50,560 --> 02:39:53,240
Speaker 1: Like I mentioned before, it played a major role in

2690
02:39:53,320 --> 02:39:57,120
Speaker 1: the community she came from, and in fact, novel points

2691
02:39:57,160 --> 02:40:00,240
Speaker 1: so that one of the reasons people are attracted you know,

2692
02:40:00,480 --> 02:40:06,600
Speaker 1: religion to Christianity in this chaotic time and in general,

2693
02:40:06,680 --> 02:40:09,360
Speaker 1: really it's because it provides hope and hope in the

2694
02:40:09,440 --> 02:40:13,560
Speaker 1: form of an afterlife, and hope is what people really

2695
02:40:13,920 --> 02:40:19,440
Speaker 1: really need in these hellish twenties that they are dealing with.

2696
02:40:20,640 --> 02:40:24,120
Speaker 1: The Lauren comes to realize that the hope and hope

2697
02:40:24,160 --> 02:40:28,880
Speaker 1: and the afterlife ultimately isn't enough for the people that

2698
02:40:29,360 --> 02:40:33,400
Speaker 1: have invested so much into it. Um, one of the

2699
02:40:33,480 --> 02:40:39,520
Speaker 1: people in the community, UM ends up despite being a

2700
02:40:39,560 --> 02:40:47,840
Speaker 1: staunch believer that UM trigger warning by the way for suicide. UM,

2701
02:40:48,160 --> 02:40:52,120
Speaker 1: despite being a strong believer that you know, suicide is

2702
02:40:52,720 --> 02:40:55,200
Speaker 1: a sin and I was sending straight to hell. She

2703
02:40:55,440 --> 02:41:00,320
Speaker 1: is so lost hope and could no longer trust in

2704
02:41:00,840 --> 02:41:03,520
Speaker 1: her has been doing with so much pain that she

2705
02:41:03,800 --> 02:41:06,920
Speaker 1: ends up taking her own life. And she takes her

2706
02:41:06,959 --> 02:41:09,119
Speaker 1: own life, And as Lauren remarks, she takes her own

2707
02:41:09,200 --> 02:41:14,560
Speaker 1: life knowing Um, or at least believing the pain hereafter,

2708
02:41:15,520 --> 02:41:19,040
Speaker 1: and yet she finds it more of a reprieve than

2709
02:41:19,080 --> 02:41:26,080
Speaker 1: the pain she was experiencing here now. And so as

2710
02:41:26,160 --> 02:41:30,440
Speaker 1: Lauren is witnessing these things happening around her, Um is

2711
02:41:31,040 --> 02:41:38,320
Speaker 1: dealing with you know, loss and her baptism and her

2712
02:41:38,520 --> 02:41:44,359
Speaker 1: father's commitment to the church. She is continuing to develop

2713
02:41:44,440 --> 02:41:47,920
Speaker 1: the idea of earth Seed, and she begins to contrast

2714
02:41:48,200 --> 02:41:54,080
Speaker 1: earth Seed from christian with Christianity UM, and particularly in

2715
02:41:54,200 --> 02:41:58,680
Speaker 1: the sense of how the two religions address hope and change.

2716
02:42:00,160 --> 02:42:03,600
Speaker 1: In Christianity, you know, they have the hope UM of

2717
02:42:03,720 --> 02:42:08,800
Speaker 1: the afterlife against this brutal life, life now a life,

2718
02:42:09,000 --> 02:42:14,760
Speaker 1: whereas earth Seed simply presents the central principle, God is changed.

2719
02:42:15,080 --> 02:42:19,720
Speaker 1: That's the first principle of earth Seed. Second is that

2720
02:42:20,480 --> 02:42:24,320
Speaker 1: shape God. So first you have to recognize and accept

2721
02:42:24,400 --> 02:42:28,240
Speaker 1: that change is inevitable, often destructive, but you could also

2722
02:42:28,280 --> 02:42:31,480
Speaker 1: recognize your other poet to shape it um. And so

2723
02:42:31,680 --> 02:42:35,640
Speaker 1: from that comes the third principle, which is to to

2724
02:42:36,080 --> 02:42:45,160
Speaker 1: um pursue the destiny, the destiny being the establishment of

2725
02:42:47,360 --> 02:42:56,640
Speaker 1: humanity and other worlds. And to be quite honest, I

2726
02:42:56,800 --> 02:43:01,240
Speaker 1: am as this is one aspect of the philosophy would

2727
02:43:01,240 --> 02:43:06,040
Speaker 1: see that I think I diverge from Um Laura and

2728
02:43:06,120 --> 02:43:09,960
Speaker 1: of course has a lot of focus on the heavens

2729
02:43:09,959 --> 02:43:15,920
Speaker 1: as in the cosmic heavens and scattering seed, which is,

2730
02:43:16,200 --> 02:43:20,360
Speaker 1: you know, humanity across you know, all these different planets,

2731
02:43:20,440 --> 02:43:25,920
Speaker 1: establishing ourselves in different worlds. But I feel as though

2732
02:43:25,959 --> 02:43:31,240
Speaker 1: the destiny is in a way once the destruction. I

2733
02:43:31,360 --> 02:43:38,800
Speaker 1: think it's it's a misplaced um, a misplaced who I guess.

2734
02:43:39,760 --> 02:43:42,000
Speaker 1: I mean, there's that's kind of one of the points

2735
02:43:42,040 --> 02:43:45,080
Speaker 1: of the book, right, because there's especially in the second book,

2736
02:43:45,120 --> 02:43:48,480
Speaker 1: there's a lot from the perspective of her daughter. That

2737
02:43:49,040 --> 02:43:53,080
Speaker 1: kind of shows how as as much her philosophy is

2738
02:43:53,200 --> 02:43:57,600
Speaker 1: a really understandable and in some ways admirable adaptation to

2739
02:43:57,760 --> 02:44:00,640
Speaker 1: the completely fucked up time she would is born into.

2740
02:44:01,360 --> 02:44:04,240
Speaker 1: It's also in the same way that a lot of

2741
02:44:04,280 --> 02:44:07,080
Speaker 1: other people's philosophies become, you know, and that her parents

2742
02:44:07,160 --> 02:44:10,560
Speaker 1: and stuff are earlier. In the first book, it's a

2743
02:44:10,640 --> 02:44:15,279
Speaker 1: way for her to kind of justify not paying attention

2744
02:44:15,360 --> 02:44:17,920
Speaker 1: to the people in her life and not not taking

2745
02:44:18,040 --> 02:44:20,400
Speaker 1: proper care of them because she's got this thing that's

2746
02:44:20,440 --> 02:44:24,600
Speaker 1: bigger than them. She works, and you really by the

2747
02:44:24,720 --> 02:44:27,000
Speaker 1: by the end of the second book, you really have

2748
02:44:27,160 --> 02:44:29,720
Speaker 1: to sort of contend with the fact that you know,

2749
02:44:30,920 --> 02:44:34,400
Speaker 1: you sort after grapple with how things with her daughter

2750
02:44:34,760 --> 02:44:41,080
Speaker 1: would handle India. I guess I'll leave it at that. Um. Yeah,

2751
02:44:44,000 --> 02:44:46,640
Speaker 1: that's part of it. I mean, she's so dedicated to

2752
02:44:46,760 --> 02:44:49,920
Speaker 1: this cause, so this new religion of whose um and

2753
02:44:50,040 --> 02:44:52,720
Speaker 1: you know she's recruiting people into it. You know, she's

2754
02:44:53,200 --> 02:44:56,480
Speaker 1: selling people least this whoop. You know that following its

2755
02:44:56,760 --> 02:45:00,800
Speaker 1: believe in a destiny. Eventually, you know, space is going

2756
02:45:00,840 --> 02:45:03,280
Speaker 1: to become the real life heaven. We could actually get

2757
02:45:03,320 --> 02:45:06,400
Speaker 1: out there. Can you start for ourselves for ourselves, and

2758
02:45:06,480 --> 02:45:08,720
Speaker 1: that's part of it as well. Part of the idea

2759
02:45:08,760 --> 02:45:12,920
Speaker 1: of the Destiny is, you know, a fresh start for humanity,

2760
02:45:13,080 --> 02:45:16,720
Speaker 1: a sort of a maturation of humanity, this idea that

2761
02:45:17,360 --> 02:45:20,680
Speaker 1: you know, once humanity establishes itself in other woods, that

2762
02:45:20,800 --> 02:45:28,320
Speaker 1: it would have grown up as a species. Yeah, and

2763
02:45:28,480 --> 02:45:31,920
Speaker 1: it's it's one of the things that I really respect

2764
02:45:31,959 --> 02:45:35,199
Speaker 1: about these books that I think a lesser writer wouldn't

2765
02:45:35,200 --> 02:45:37,480
Speaker 1: have been able to pull off, is that the degree,

2766
02:45:37,560 --> 02:45:40,600
Speaker 1: without beating you in the head with it, you see

2767
02:45:41,959 --> 02:45:48,000
Speaker 1: her as first failed by the philosophies and ideologies of

2768
02:45:48,120 --> 02:45:53,600
Speaker 1: her parents generation and by the systems that people had

2769
02:45:53,640 --> 02:45:56,280
Speaker 1: gotten stuck in. She's very much a character who grows

2770
02:45:56,360 --> 02:45:58,199
Speaker 1: up in a world where all the adults are stuck

2771
02:45:58,760 --> 02:46:01,480
Speaker 1: um and since like a system that has become a

2772
02:46:01,560 --> 02:46:05,800
Speaker 1: death cult, and she has to figure out a way

2773
02:46:06,040 --> 02:46:08,160
Speaker 1: out of it. What she comes to believe in so

2774
02:46:08,400 --> 02:46:10,760
Speaker 1: much that in her own way, she becomes stuck in

2775
02:46:10,920 --> 02:46:14,400
Speaker 1: that new thing, and it renders her unable to see

2776
02:46:14,720 --> 02:46:18,800
Speaker 1: certain things that are important. And the book never portrays

2777
02:46:18,840 --> 02:46:21,880
Speaker 1: her as completely right or completely wrong, because that's just

2778
02:46:22,000 --> 02:46:26,680
Speaker 1: not how civilization works. Things just change over time, and

2779
02:46:27,560 --> 02:46:31,400
Speaker 1: you know, the the ideology that her parents and the

2780
02:46:31,480 --> 02:46:33,600
Speaker 1: adults are all stuck in in the beginning of the

2781
02:46:33,600 --> 02:46:36,040
Speaker 1: book is an ideology that worked to a degree at

2782
02:46:36,120 --> 02:46:39,160
Speaker 1: some point in the past. Um, which is just it

2783
02:46:39,480 --> 02:46:42,400
Speaker 1: it's it's It does a really good job of showing

2784
02:46:42,440 --> 02:46:44,800
Speaker 1: a number of things, which is kind of what it's

2785
02:46:44,840 --> 02:46:48,600
Speaker 1: like to be a kid realizing that the adults have

2786
02:46:48,760 --> 02:46:53,720
Speaker 1: fucked you, what it's like to become radicalized, um, and

2787
02:46:53,920 --> 02:46:55,879
Speaker 1: realize that the world doesn't have to be the way

2788
02:46:55,959 --> 02:46:57,560
Speaker 1: that it is, and what it's like to let that

2789
02:46:57,720 --> 02:47:01,959
Speaker 1: radicalization lead you somewhere to where you miss important things,

2790
02:47:02,240 --> 02:47:05,880
Speaker 1: Like there's so much going on in the evolution of

2791
02:47:06,120 --> 02:47:09,560
Speaker 1: what the characters believe in this book that is is

2792
02:47:09,680 --> 02:47:14,760
Speaker 1: just masterful from a storytelling standpoint. Yeah, I mean, the

2793
02:47:14,840 --> 02:47:17,640
Speaker 1: second book really does a good job showing her sort

2794
02:47:17,680 --> 02:47:20,360
Speaker 1: of blindness as well when it comes to things going on,

2795
02:47:20,879 --> 02:47:27,320
Speaker 1: because what ends up happening one of the worst incidents

2796
02:47:27,440 --> 02:47:33,520
Speaker 1: in that second book is something that's of course not

2797
02:47:33,760 --> 02:47:35,760
Speaker 1: a victim blame, but it is something they could have

2798
02:47:35,840 --> 02:47:44,080
Speaker 1: prepared for a bit more, a lot more. Actually, Yeah,

2799
02:47:44,200 --> 02:47:47,280
Speaker 1: it's it's They're good books. There are books that you

2800
02:47:47,360 --> 02:47:50,120
Speaker 1: will if you're like me, you will start reading them

2801
02:47:50,480 --> 02:47:53,400
Speaker 1: and you will get really into the first book, and

2802
02:47:53,480 --> 02:47:55,520
Speaker 1: then you'll take a ten minute break to like check

2803
02:47:55,600 --> 02:47:59,120
Speaker 1: the news, and something will send you into a panic spiral,

2804
02:47:59,240 --> 02:48:02,000
Speaker 1: and you'll read the new two books getting increasingly depressed.

2805
02:48:02,600 --> 02:48:07,400
Speaker 1: It's good next book because the third book never released. Yeah,

2806
02:48:07,800 --> 02:48:10,400
Speaker 1: she never quite got to make it. Yeah, And I'll

2807
02:48:10,440 --> 02:48:11,960
Speaker 1: get into that as well in a bit in how

2808
02:48:12,000 --> 02:48:15,320
Speaker 1: it ties into the destiny right, but just a real

2809
02:48:15,400 --> 02:48:19,320
Speaker 1: three You know, who is principle? God has changed. God

2810
02:48:19,440 --> 02:48:21,920
Speaker 1: is not a person. It doesn't love or hate or

2811
02:48:22,000 --> 02:48:25,080
Speaker 1: watch over us or no us. It just is second

2812
02:48:25,120 --> 02:48:32,440
Speaker 1: principle shape God. God is maalable. God is power, infinite, irresistible, inexorable, indifferent,

2813
02:48:32,600 --> 02:48:35,520
Speaker 1: and yet God is pliable. Tricks to teacher chiosk Clay

2814
02:48:36,680 --> 02:48:39,560
Speaker 1: and truly emphasizes the change is neither good nor bad,

2815
02:48:39,640 --> 02:48:43,520
Speaker 1: but it is potential. And we could and we have

2816
02:48:43,560 --> 02:48:47,320
Speaker 1: a choice to either be a victim of change, the

2817
02:48:47,440 --> 02:48:53,520
Speaker 1: victim of God, or we can become a partner of God,

2818
02:48:53,680 --> 02:48:55,520
Speaker 1: or we can become a shape of God, or we

2819
02:48:55,520 --> 02:49:02,039
Speaker 1: could just stay as God's plaything as changes prey. It's unavoidable,

2820
02:49:02,200 --> 02:49:08,320
Speaker 1: but our actions can shape its direction. And speed, and

2821
02:49:08,440 --> 02:49:14,880
Speaker 1: the end change prevails. And there's a comfort in that

2822
02:49:16,400 --> 02:49:21,959
Speaker 1: because once we can understand that you can return that efforts,

2823
02:49:23,800 --> 02:49:28,840
Speaker 1: the inevitability of change can be what thrust us forward.

2824
02:49:30,360 --> 02:49:34,760
Speaker 1: And I think, um, I think people who are invested

2825
02:49:34,879 --> 02:49:41,720
Speaker 1: in in activism, in organizing and just revolutionary work, I

2826
02:49:41,800 --> 02:49:43,760
Speaker 1: think their aspects of the see that I think would

2827
02:49:43,760 --> 02:49:50,600
Speaker 1: be very motivating, very impactful, very energizing because despite you know,

2828
02:49:50,680 --> 02:49:56,000
Speaker 1: how circumstances play out, Um, there's a recognition that we

2829
02:49:56,120 --> 02:50:03,280
Speaker 1: are never entirely disempowered, you know. And so like just

2830
02:50:03,440 --> 02:50:06,280
Speaker 1: the last point I want to get into about the destiny,

2831
02:50:08,840 --> 02:50:10,960
Speaker 1: I think that's what it would make me if I

2832
02:50:11,040 --> 02:50:14,039
Speaker 1: were to be in this world. I think that's where

2833
02:50:14,040 --> 02:50:19,080
Speaker 1: I would diverge from the earthtied orthodoxy, because I mean,

2834
02:50:19,520 --> 02:50:23,880
Speaker 1: Lauren talks about how, you know, history is just this

2835
02:50:24,000 --> 02:50:26,360
Speaker 1: repetitive thing. We have all these wars and kill a

2836
02:50:26,400 --> 02:50:29,640
Speaker 1: bunch of people and impoverish others and spread disease and hunger,

2837
02:50:30,920 --> 02:50:34,520
Speaker 1: and the whole thing is just because that's how it's

2838
02:50:34,520 --> 02:50:38,200
Speaker 1: always been, just being. We have to accept that we

2839
02:50:38,280 --> 02:50:42,800
Speaker 1: can choose to do more, make something more of ourselves,

2840
02:50:42,879 --> 02:50:46,240
Speaker 1: and to who making something more of ourselves is establishing

2841
02:50:46,240 --> 02:50:50,440
Speaker 1: ourselves another planet. So if she is earteed Orthodoxy, I

2842
02:50:50,560 --> 02:50:57,119
Speaker 1: suppose I'm an earth Seed Protestant. I think you see

2843
02:50:57,280 --> 02:51:00,920
Speaker 1: Martin Luther nailing your thesis to I don't know the

2844
02:51:00,959 --> 02:51:04,240
Speaker 1: door of her house in Seattle exactly. I would be

2845
02:51:04,360 --> 02:51:06,800
Speaker 1: a reform of the of the destiny in the sense

2846
02:51:06,920 --> 02:51:09,640
Speaker 1: that I see the destiny could be creating a heaven

2847
02:51:09,800 --> 02:51:13,800
Speaker 1: here on Earth, like rather than pursuing it cosmic heaven.

2848
02:51:14,600 --> 02:51:17,440
Speaker 1: I don't think it's even something that Lauren, at least

2849
02:51:17,440 --> 02:51:20,560
Speaker 1: I don't recall Lauran ever grappling with the possibility, because

2850
02:51:20,600 --> 02:51:25,240
Speaker 1: she really is fixated on this cosmic um idea. I

2851
02:51:25,280 --> 02:51:28,480
Speaker 1: do think she grabbed the possibility that humanity can mature

2852
02:51:29,120 --> 02:51:32,760
Speaker 1: quote quote here on Earth. You know. Um. She doesn't

2853
02:51:32,760 --> 02:51:35,720
Speaker 1: really draw munch attention or has ent much time thinking

2854
02:51:35,760 --> 02:51:40,680
Speaker 1: about things like ecosystem restoration or you know, changing the

2855
02:51:42,320 --> 02:51:45,680
Speaker 1: pushing back against the government or the economic system that

2856
02:51:45,879 --> 02:51:49,920
Speaker 1: is impoverishing and inflicting violence upon people. She's just really

2857
02:51:50,520 --> 02:51:53,680
Speaker 1: fixated on the destiny. And so that's when I get

2858
02:51:53,720 --> 02:51:55,920
Speaker 1: into the Food Book and things I learned about the

2859
02:51:55,959 --> 02:52:00,120
Speaker 1: Third Book when I was researching for this episode. But

2860
02:52:00,400 --> 02:52:03,680
Speaker 1: actually planned on exploring the fulfillment the destiny in the

2861
02:52:03,800 --> 02:52:07,760
Speaker 1: third book, um Parable of the trick Still. In fact,

2862
02:52:07,840 --> 02:52:10,360
Speaker 1: she intended to have a seven part series, so the

2863
02:52:10,440 --> 02:52:14,400
Speaker 1: third book would have been near the middle, as the

2864
02:52:14,520 --> 02:52:18,320
Speaker 1: story would have focused on another woman named Imara, who

2865
02:52:18,400 --> 02:52:20,480
Speaker 1: is living on he called me in the future, on

2866
02:52:20,560 --> 02:52:24,600
Speaker 1: a planet called Boom, far away from Earth. Cold. It

2867
02:52:24,760 --> 02:52:27,520
Speaker 1: is not the heaven that was hoped for, but gray,

2868
02:52:27,879 --> 02:52:33,960
Speaker 1: dank and utterly miserable. Everybody is homesick. Um homesick, not

2869
02:52:34,120 --> 02:52:36,760
Speaker 1: just in like, oh, I haven't been home in a

2870
02:52:36,800 --> 02:52:38,960
Speaker 1: while kind of thing, homesick in the sense of, like

2871
02:52:40,080 --> 02:52:43,200
Speaker 1: you know when someone is like an amputee and they

2872
02:52:43,280 --> 02:52:47,480
Speaker 1: have this sort of phantom limb sensation. Yeah, this homesickness

2873
02:52:47,560 --> 02:52:54,880
Speaker 1: is like a phantom limb pain, a neurological debilitation. It's

2874
02:52:54,959 --> 02:53:00,960
Speaker 1: like trying to graft humanity answer new planet, and it's

2875
02:53:01,200 --> 02:53:05,080
Speaker 1: it's it's like if humanity were a branch and this

2876
02:53:05,200 --> 02:53:07,760
Speaker 1: new plant was a tree, and like both the tree

2877
02:53:07,879 --> 02:53:12,680
Speaker 1: and the branch are kind of rejecting each other. Um.

2878
02:53:12,840 --> 02:53:16,680
Speaker 1: And so she never really got very far into writing

2879
02:53:16,760 --> 02:53:19,520
Speaker 1: Parable of the Tricksters. In fact, she had a lot

2880
02:53:19,560 --> 02:53:24,040
Speaker 1: of different um ways of approaching it a lot of

2881
02:53:24,080 --> 02:53:27,000
Speaker 1: different manuscripts that she got, you know, a couple of

2882
02:53:27,000 --> 02:53:30,240
Speaker 1: pages into and then discarded. You know, so in some

2883
02:53:30,480 --> 02:53:34,800
Speaker 1: versions the call instead of having like creeping blindness. In others,

2884
02:53:34,879 --> 02:53:40,160
Speaker 1: they get this telepathy um. In other versions, she has

2885
02:53:40,200 --> 02:53:44,080
Speaker 1: to solve a murder. Another version, she becomes a ghost.

2886
02:53:44,800 --> 02:53:47,879
Speaker 1: Sometimes she's an earth an earth Seed skeptics. Sometimes she's

2887
02:53:47,879 --> 02:53:51,800
Speaker 1: a true believer. Sometimes she's a hyper rampath. Sometimes she's

2888
02:53:52,280 --> 02:53:55,760
Speaker 1: cured of it um. Sometimes the planet itself is filled

2889
02:53:55,800 --> 02:53:59,920
Speaker 1: with giant dinosaurs, other times small animals, other times intel

2890
02:54:00,040 --> 02:54:04,400
Speaker 1: gent aliens um. And there's also this idea, this I

2891
02:54:04,440 --> 02:54:09,560
Speaker 1: would say, very Twilight Zone esque idea that the aliens

2892
02:54:09,560 --> 02:54:14,720
Speaker 1: that they do encounter tokens of their escalating collective madness.

2893
02:54:16,520 --> 02:54:18,600
Speaker 1: And so the whole idea of power of the tricks

2894
02:54:18,680 --> 02:54:22,120
Speaker 1: to and would have been the subsequent books was you know,

2895
02:54:23,120 --> 02:54:26,640
Speaker 1: the continuation of the concept of choice choosing to either

2896
02:54:26,720 --> 02:54:30,200
Speaker 1: you know, live together, we're together, struggle together, or you know,

2897
02:54:31,600 --> 02:54:35,920
Speaker 1: fight and scheme and lose their minds, break down, die

2898
02:54:36,040 --> 02:54:40,080
Speaker 1: and murder alone. In a speech to the u N

2899
02:54:40,440 --> 02:54:42,720
Speaker 1: in two thousand one, that would be like five years

2900
02:54:42,800 --> 02:54:44,960
Speaker 1: before she passed away. I think she did, like I

2901
02:54:45,000 --> 02:54:49,480
Speaker 1: said two thousand and six, she speaks about how before

2902
02:54:49,560 --> 02:54:52,280
Speaker 1: she even like started working on the first Parable novel,

2903
02:54:52,879 --> 02:54:55,599
Speaker 1: she wanted to write a novel about a utopian civilization

2904
02:54:56,040 --> 02:55:00,360
Speaker 1: where everybody had a kind of hyper empathy. But then

2905
02:55:01,920 --> 02:55:05,000
Speaker 1: actually figured it would be a utopian society because everyone

2906
02:55:05,120 --> 02:55:11,320
Speaker 1: would be inclined to, you know, behave in a more

2907
02:55:11,440 --> 02:55:17,080
Speaker 1: pro social way, because any anti social activity they would have,

2908
02:55:18,000 --> 02:55:22,119
Speaker 1: you know, inflict upon others would be inflixed upon themselves immediately.

2909
02:55:23,000 --> 02:55:27,640
Speaker 1: But then she realized it wouldn't work because sharing pain,

2910
02:55:27,800 --> 02:55:31,640
Speaker 1: the threat of shared pain, doesn't necessarily make people behave

2911
02:55:31,760 --> 02:55:35,440
Speaker 1: better towards another. She points to be the popular pain

2912
02:55:35,560 --> 02:55:39,000
Speaker 1: full supports of you know, like boxing and American football,

2913
02:55:39,840 --> 02:55:42,560
Speaker 1: you know. And so she recognizes that this idea of

2914
02:55:42,640 --> 02:55:45,360
Speaker 1: everyone being a hypergram path bec cause a lot of trouble.

2915
02:55:45,480 --> 02:55:48,120
Speaker 1: I mean, if everyone feels each other's pain, who wants

2916
02:55:48,160 --> 02:55:50,560
Speaker 1: to be a dentist? You know, who wants to be

2917
02:55:50,640 --> 02:55:54,120
Speaker 1: a newse um. And so she discards that idea and

2918
02:55:54,520 --> 02:55:57,360
Speaker 1: she basically created Lauren, who was a lone hyper and

2919
02:55:57,480 --> 02:56:06,879
Speaker 1: path in the would that is empathy deficient ultimately, I think,

2920
02:56:07,080 --> 02:56:10,320
Speaker 1: But I guess the heart of you know a lot

2921
02:56:10,360 --> 02:56:15,760
Speaker 1: of the issues that we're dealing with, um, she grapp us,

2922
02:56:15,800 --> 02:56:21,240
Speaker 1: a lot of questions that should still be explored, the

2923
02:56:21,280 --> 02:56:24,360
Speaker 1: idea of inclusion and exclusion, that balance when you know,

2924
02:56:24,760 --> 02:56:31,120
Speaker 1: developing community, concept of perseverance, UM, concept of hope, the

2925
02:56:31,520 --> 02:56:38,360
Speaker 1: creation and destruction and re birth of really life, and

2926
02:56:39,240 --> 02:56:43,600
Speaker 1: just what makes life life? I guess I'll wrap things

2927
02:56:43,720 --> 02:56:49,600
Speaker 1: up with the code. Does tolerance have a chance only

2928
02:56:49,640 --> 02:56:54,360
Speaker 1: if we wanted to tolerance, Like any aspect of peace,

2929
02:56:55,160 --> 02:56:59,440
Speaker 1: it's forever a week in progress, never completed. And if

2930
02:56:59,480 --> 02:57:01,360
Speaker 1: we are as an intelligent as we'd like to think,

2931
02:57:01,440 --> 02:57:08,720
Speaker 1: we are never abandoned. That's it. What has change? Chep

2932
02:57:08,800 --> 02:57:13,280
Speaker 1: Guarded Peace? Well, I think that's about as good a

2933
02:57:13,360 --> 02:57:16,959
Speaker 1: line as any to end on. Go read Octavia Butler.

2934
02:57:17,240 --> 02:57:21,520
Speaker 1: If you haven't check her out, go to the library.

2935
02:57:21,920 --> 02:57:24,560
Speaker 1: Her ships all over the library. Libraries are filthy with

2936
02:57:24,640 --> 02:57:27,960
Speaker 1: Octavia Butler books. You'll find it or steal it off

2937
02:57:28,000 --> 02:57:32,959
Speaker 1: the internet. She's not gonna mind. Hey, We'll be back

2938
02:57:33,040 --> 02:57:36,200
Speaker 1: Monday with more episodes every week from now until the

2939
02:57:36,280 --> 02:57:38,840
Speaker 1: heat death of the universe. It could happen years. A

2940
02:57:38,879 --> 02:57:41,720
Speaker 1: production of Cool Zone Media For more podcasts from cool

2941
02:57:41,800 --> 02:57:44,400
Speaker 1: Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com,

2942
02:57:44,560 --> 02:57:46,320
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

2943
02:57:46,320 --> 02:57:49,400
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can

2944
02:57:49,440 --> 02:57:52,120
Speaker 1: find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at

2945
02:57:52,160 --> 02:57:55,360
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.