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Speaker 1: This is Me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: folk bitten, and in my case, underwear listening Hunt podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators

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Speaker 1: are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download

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Speaker 1: the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store.

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Speaker 1: Nor where you stand with on x Okay, ladies and gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: you're you're bearing witness to a feat of COVID induced

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Speaker 1: technology where we're all over the damn plays not in

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Speaker 1: our studio. Well that's not true. Cal's in the studio,

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Speaker 1: Hello Cal, Hello, Stephen uh Brody is in the studio,

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Speaker 1: Hello Brody. Hello. And Janice is in the studio. Hello,

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Speaker 1: Jannae loved joined uh joined there by. I think Krin's

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Speaker 1: in there, fills in there. I'm I'm quarantined at home.

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Speaker 1: This is my fourth quarantine. This time I'm so quarantined

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Speaker 1: that I'm out in my own guesthouse, like I'm not

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Speaker 1: allowed anywhere near even my own family. So I have

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Speaker 1: to look out the window into my home to see

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Speaker 1: my family going about their business, which is the saddest

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Speaker 1: thing on the planet. But my kids are treating me

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Speaker 1: like an underdog and they're watching out from my interests

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Speaker 1: and have gotten very mad at my wife for talking

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Speaker 1: rudely to me. So I'm manipulating that. I'm yea, they

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Speaker 1: feel they feel very bad for me. And joined by

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Speaker 1: Jim Heffelfinger from Arizona. Jim and our friend Brandon Butler,

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Speaker 1: who's down joining from Missouri. Correct Brandon, now, Brandon, this

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Speaker 1: is like a short notice Brandon coming on here because

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Speaker 1: the weirdest thing happened that I just found out about.

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Speaker 1: Someone sent me a link to a go fund me.

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Speaker 1: Uh that's being put on by Brandon's friend and Brandon

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Speaker 1: he'll tell what happened. But his uh, someone burned his

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Speaker 1: damn hunting camp down, and this hunt camp we recorded

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Speaker 1: podcasts out of. So that's kind of like is the relevancy.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if people remember years ago, Yanni and

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Speaker 1: I were out spring turkey hunting in Missouri and it

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Speaker 1: was a time if you really stretch your memory back

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Speaker 1: and we're paying attention to our show. Back then, Yanni

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Speaker 1: had gotten a turkey and I actually found an old

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Speaker 1: crippled turkey and got that. Like I jumped up a

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Speaker 1: crippled up turkey and got it and tagged it, and

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Speaker 1: we were staying at Brandon's house, and so I was

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Speaker 1: quite alarmed this morning to see that someone had burnt

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Speaker 1: to damn camp down like full on Arson. Listen, Brandon, Yanni,

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Speaker 1: you don't even know about this yet, Brandon, tell what happened.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that was. That was two thousand and eighteen

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Speaker 1: when you and Janice came down and joined me and

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Speaker 1: Parker Hall and Steve Jones. We had a great, great

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Speaker 1: time and you guys hadn't you'd been there right when

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Speaker 1: the cabin kind of started coming together. Called this place

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Speaker 1: Driftwood Acres. It's down in Shannon County, Missouri. It's a

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Speaker 1: it's a rough part of the world, a very almost

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Speaker 1: lawless part of the world. So I knew what I

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Speaker 1: was getting into going down there as a professional conservationist,

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Speaker 1: and uh yeah, it didn't play out so well. Back

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and seventeen, a friend of mine was

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Speaker 1: hunting a field just off my property when a little

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Speaker 1: seven pointer white tail we call them seven pointers back

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Speaker 1: here in Missouri was out in this field. A road

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Speaker 1: hunter shot it off the road, wounded it, it ran

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Speaker 1: over onto my property. They drove out across my property,

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Speaker 1: jumped it, up it ran for my buddy, who's wearing

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Speaker 1: Blaze orange, stands up in the tree stand is waving

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Speaker 1: at these people. They continue to fire at this deer,

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Speaker 1: wounding it more. It goes into a creek, and finally

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Speaker 1: they confront my friend and tell him it was his

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Speaker 1: fault for not putting orange at the entrance of this

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Speaker 1: field at the road so they would know not to

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Speaker 1: shoot from the road. At that time, I went up

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Speaker 1: and and confronted these people. I was told to know

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Speaker 1: my place. I talked to the law enforcement and he

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Speaker 1: suggested just kind of letting this one ride. And man,

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Speaker 1: that is just eight at me for years, like the

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Speaker 1: fact that I didn't press charges. I just kind of

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Speaker 1: took it, moved on, tried to survive down there. This year,

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Speaker 1: on Sunday of opening day a rifle season, at eight

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Speaker 1: thirty at night, me and three of my friends Nathan Shags,

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Speaker 1: McLeod paddle down Cranfeld and my cousin Derek Butler. We're

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Speaker 1: sitting around a camp fire and the creek had flooded.

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Speaker 1: And if you guys remember but this is just a

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Speaker 1: couple of nights ago, well, no, I'm talking about deer season,

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Speaker 1: so this would have been like November, having burned a

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Speaker 1: couple of nights ago. Oh I got you, I got you.

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Speaker 1: So if you guys remember I had to bring in

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Speaker 1: through the forest because the creek had flooded. That happens

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Speaker 1: a lot, and we're on the back side of it.

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Speaker 1: So the creek is flooded and we're thinking nobody's coming

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Speaker 1: in for deer season. Well, this truck comes across the creek. Anyways,

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Speaker 1: they stopped at the end of my driveway, maybe a

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty yards down from us. It's a long driveway.

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Speaker 1: Look up at us having a fire go about two

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Speaker 1: hundred yards further. Pull into this field, throw on the

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Speaker 1: light bars. I mean it would be like turning on

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Speaker 1: the lights at a professional baseball stadium. Just lit this

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Speaker 1: thing up like crazy, jump out and start unloading so

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Speaker 1: close that we're watching the muzzle flashes as they poached

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Speaker 1: these deer. So, without even thinking, I jumped into my

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Speaker 1: side by side and took off after him. My cousin

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Speaker 1: and friends start charging down the hill on foot to

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Speaker 1: follow me up, thinking I'm I'm going after poacher's unarmed.

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Speaker 1: They're obviously armed. They take off. I get the license

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Speaker 1: plate number, I call the license plate number. In this time,

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Speaker 1: I'm pressing charges. There's no way I'm I'm never gonna

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Speaker 1: live with that guilt again. I had no idea who

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Speaker 1: it was. It turned out to be some locals. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The threats started coming. I started being told I don't

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Speaker 1: belong down there. All that uh starts coming through email,

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Speaker 1: social media stuff like that, telling me that snitches end

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Speaker 1: up in ditches. Um, good luck, good luck hanging out

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Speaker 1: down here. And and then Monday night, at at twelve

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Speaker 1: twelve o'clock at night, my wife wakes me up. The

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Speaker 1: neighbor called and said the cabins burning down right now.

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Speaker 1: So I jumped up, grab a few guns, take off.

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Speaker 1: It's a three and a half hour drive. Get down

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Speaker 1: there about sunrise, says the final flames are still flickering.

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Speaker 1: So you know it was it was just a building.

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Speaker 1: But the possessions that I had in there were probably

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Speaker 1: thirty taxidermy amounts of mine and families, my my my

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Speaker 1: grandfather's Folds of Honor flag from World War Two after

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Speaker 1: he passed away, my my handmade great grandfather's bed. I mean,

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Speaker 1: just the endless amount of like personal possessions that are

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Speaker 1: just irreplaceable and thankfully that I had cameras all over.

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Speaker 1: The person has not been apprehended yet, but they will be.

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Speaker 1: And uh and yeah, so that's it. You know. It

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Speaker 1: took a stand for conservation, stood up to these poachers

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Speaker 1: and they burned my house down. God. Man, the pictures

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Speaker 1: are really upsetting to man. Yeah, it's it's still hard

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Speaker 1: to like look at the pictures because every time I

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Speaker 1: look at them, I noticed something else that Uh, that's there.

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Speaker 1: If you look hard, you'll see. My friend Kevin Orthman

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Speaker 1: bought me an antique book press and in that book

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Speaker 1: press was the uh, the Meat Eater cookbook, uh, volume one,

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Speaker 1: in volume two of the Tips and Tactics books. So

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Speaker 1: so even lost, even lost. That's the if if you

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Speaker 1: go back to the episodes we did from there, I

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Speaker 1: did the we I told a story about the steam

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Speaker 1: breathing turkey and Steve you said that, man, that that

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Speaker 1: was such a beautiful description. If I was a painter,

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Speaker 1: I would paint that, and some dude did, and you

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Speaker 1: guys used it as a tour poster on your your

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Speaker 1: first go around. You were You were kind enough to

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Speaker 1: make me twenty copies of the Driftwood Acres version of

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Speaker 1: that poster and you and Janas signed it and sent

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Speaker 1: it to me, And it was in a frame next

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Speaker 1: to the actual fan from the steam breathing Turkey that

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Speaker 1: was centered between two bucks that I killed down there

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Speaker 1: in two bucks that shags killed down there that were mounted.

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Speaker 1: All that's gone. Every Turkey fan that I ever had

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Speaker 1: is gone. Every European mount that I've ever had is gone.

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Speaker 1: Is the go fund me still up? Yeah? The go

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Speaker 1: fund me just came up today, and your body you

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Speaker 1: up yeah? And I'm I had insurance, I'm gainfully employed.

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Speaker 1: I am not in in horrible need of money. So

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm humbled by the outpouring of support and and

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Speaker 1: the friendship and and all I can say is like

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Speaker 1: whatever comes from the go fund me will not be

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Speaker 1: used selfishly. I'll find a way to use this money

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Speaker 1: to h to further conservation and hunting and fishing. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I had a full blown raft, you know,

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Speaker 1: like a west I used to live in Montana and

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Speaker 1: fish all the rivers you guys fish. And I had

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Speaker 1: a fourteen hundred like a pack raft and outcast pack

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Speaker 1: fourteen hundred that burned up on the trailer the water

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Speaker 1: Skeeter I had when I lived out there, burned up

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Speaker 1: four kayaks, my kids kayaks, and man, that's the hardest part. Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, my girls are teenagers, they're fourteen and fifteen

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Speaker 1: years old, so sometimes dragging them down to this wilderness

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Speaker 1: treat was a pain in the ass. Like I had

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Speaker 1: to get the internet for them to even want to

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Speaker 1: go down there, so I had like satellite internet. But

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Speaker 1: they're crying, They're scared, like they're they're worried these people

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Speaker 1: might like actually come to our home. So like I'm

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Speaker 1: leaving the house at twelve thirty in the morning with

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Speaker 1: an a R fifteen in one hand, hugging my fifteen

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Speaker 1: year old crying daughter with the other hand. And it

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Speaker 1: took about an hour and a lot of Metallica songs

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Speaker 1: to realize like what I had done. You know, like

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Speaker 1: I'm walking out of my house armed with like a

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Speaker 1: military grade weapon, hugging a fifteen year old child that's crying,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like the position that I've not only been

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Speaker 1: putting myself, but then to react that way, like I'm

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Speaker 1: I had to like sit her down and talk to her.

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Speaker 1: And but you know, it's a scary situation. It's a

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Speaker 1: scary place, and so why, like, why are the law

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Speaker 1: why is the law enforcement so reluctant to deal with it?

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Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I don't even get this, man,

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Speaker 1: It's hard to explain. Man, I don't have the answers

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Speaker 1: for that. I'm I'm friends with the game wardens down there.

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Speaker 1: They're under source. Of course, they're underpaid. I'm counting on

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Speaker 1: a sheriff's deputy who probably makes you know, in the

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Speaker 1: thirties as far as money, And this guy's got to

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Speaker 1: put his life on the line to go after, you know,

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Speaker 1: hardened criminals because my cabin burned down. Like that's a

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Speaker 1: lot to ask of somebody to like go into this

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Speaker 1: holler where there's no phones, no service, no internet, and

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Speaker 1: try to apprehend somebody willing and able to do such

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Speaker 1: a heinous crime for thirty grand a year. So then

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Speaker 1: you know, there's also a huge national park there called

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Speaker 1: the Ozark National Scenic Riverways, and they have law enforcement

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Speaker 1: and and they have a hard time with getting the

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Speaker 1: prosecutions to go through. Um there's just a real clannish

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Speaker 1: culture down there, and and trying to get people prosecuted

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Speaker 1: and through the judicial system is hard as well. So

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's just a very strange part of

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Speaker 1: the world, very Appalachia, Like it's the poorest county in Missouri.

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Speaker 1: But something has to change. And I've got you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm friends with the Lieutenant governor of our state. I've

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Speaker 1: got to call into his office, talked to a lot

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Speaker 1: of law enforcement people, you know, if I have to

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Speaker 1: be the martyr for this too, finally raise awareness that

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Speaker 1: there's almost a lawless society existing within our state, and

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Speaker 1: the fact that good people cannot go down there and

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Speaker 1: build a home and enjoy the outdoors and increase the

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Speaker 1: economy or anything that needs to be done to make

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Speaker 1: this a more civilized society than you know, what's it

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Speaker 1: gonna take. So I'm I'm really hopeful that this is

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Speaker 1: a turning point in the history of this county, in

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Speaker 1: the history of the Ozarks, because it's one of the

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Speaker 1: most naturally beautiful parts of the country. Man. I wish

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Speaker 1: we could get into the parts of this that we

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Speaker 1: can't quite get into yet. But it's just like kind

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Speaker 1: of a heartbreaking story. Man. It's so maddening and heartening. Man.

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Speaker 1: But well, like I want to revisit it later on

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Speaker 1: down the road. But one of the things about the

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Speaker 1: go fund me, I know you were saying, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter and you had insurance. But I'll

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Speaker 1: come out and say that you've been real good about

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Speaker 1: sharing that place with people and being generous with it

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Speaker 1: and instead of having a little chunk of ground that

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Speaker 1: you that you lock up for yourself, trying to have

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Speaker 1: like a place where you invite people in and and

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Speaker 1: encourage conversations and try to use it as like, uh,

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Speaker 1: something that's positive and to get people to relate and

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Speaker 1: interact around conservation issues. Um. And I think it was

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Speaker 1: it's like it's a cool spot and what you were

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Speaker 1: doing there is cool, man. And I hope that people

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Speaker 1: go and check out your go fund me because, uh,

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Speaker 1: you didn't lose a ton of stuff, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: like a selfish project you had going on. It was

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Speaker 1: something you were trying to do to be a good dude,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I feel like you should tell people

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Speaker 1: about the God On Me and people can come in

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Speaker 1: and try to lend some support for someone that that

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Speaker 1: for turning in. Some deer poachers had all their memories

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Speaker 1: and something that they care a great deal about burned

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Speaker 1: to the ground. Well, thank you very much. The outpouring

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Speaker 1: of support has been humbling. Man. When I saw my

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Speaker 1: phone go off today with your name popping up, I

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Speaker 1: was like, man, this is getting around, you know. So

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate you guys, all of you. And you know,

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Speaker 1: Clay Nucomb has been to the cabin a few times,

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Speaker 1: Hal Herring has been there, and Russell Graves out of Texas. Like,

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Speaker 1: I was trying to make it something special that would

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Speaker 1: hopefully bring some awareness to that area as well. I

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Speaker 1: was trying to do good things for the people down

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Speaker 1: there and and show that this is an incredible natural

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Speaker 1: resource area of our country. But yeah, I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't know, man. Uh. The go fund me, whatever money

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Speaker 1: comes from that, I'm going to use it for good,

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Speaker 1: for conservation, for figuring out how to get more people

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Speaker 1: involved in the outdoor, taking more people fishing and hunting. Um.

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Speaker 1: I lost my raft that I wrote a lot of

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Speaker 1: people down the river in that raft. Um. So it's

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Speaker 1: on the Driftwood Outdoors Facebook page. I think the go

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Speaker 1: fund me is called Brandon Butler's Cabin Burned by poachers.

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Speaker 1: You can look it up, but the best way probably

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Speaker 1: to find it is just to go to Driftwood Outdoors

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Speaker 1: on on Facebook. But what like, like I said, you know,

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Speaker 1: like this money will be used in a way that

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Speaker 1: will let these people know that they didn't win that

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Speaker 1: you know, we're going to continue to take a stand

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Speaker 1: for conservation. You know that. I've been asked that too, Like, man,

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Speaker 1: I bet you wish you wouldn't have turned him in.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, absolutely not. I'll do it again tomorrow. Like,

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Speaker 1: and I've had a bunch of people reach out and

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Speaker 1: like my favorite thing is like a few folks have

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Speaker 1: been like, dude, this is like the Pearl Harbor of

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Speaker 1: Shannon County. Like they don't know what they just woke up.

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Speaker 1: Like we're gonna get after it. So yeah, don't let

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Speaker 1: some piece of ship with a pointless life drive you out. Man. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's the absolute truth. So we're just gonna keep moving forward.

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Speaker 1: It's all you can do in life, right, Like, my

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Speaker 1: family is safe and healthy. Thankfully nobody was there. Uh

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Speaker 1: you know, the important stuff is still intact. Yeah, Brandon,

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Speaker 1: I know it hurts to lose all those material possessions,

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Speaker 1: but it sounds like you've got the right attitude about it.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you know, thankfully, no humans got hurt and uh,

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Speaker 1: what that song bitch can't take away from us are

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Speaker 1: those great memories, man, And I've got some incredible memories

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Speaker 1: from that place. And I can attest to what you're

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Speaker 1: saying about it's natural beauty. It's absolutely incredible. You wouldn't

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Speaker 1: think that, uh, southern Missouri would have water that flows

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Speaker 1: of that color until you go and see it, and

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Speaker 1: I urge everybody to do it. It's absolutely stunning. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, the memory we have, it's burning my mind,

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Speaker 1: is that opening morning a Turkey season when I snuck

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Speaker 1: in there and call that old gobbler over to me

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Speaker 1: and I shot him, and in my head, I could

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Speaker 1: just see you and Steve up there on the other

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Speaker 1: side of the ridge going was that Yanni? Could that

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Speaker 1: could have been Yanni? They can't take that away from us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, the feeling of knowing people are jealous of you,

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Speaker 1: No one could take. Yeah, I'm trying to I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to hunt with Steve, you know, and I want to,

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Speaker 1: of course show you guys a good hunt and a

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Speaker 1: good time. And you know, it was like we we

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Speaker 1: said it was like Rachel Carson, Silent Spring, like Steve

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Speaker 1: and I didn't hear anything. It was like wildlife had

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Speaker 1: become the void. And then we show up and Jannice

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Speaker 1: is like, oh yeah, so easy killed one in thirty minutes.

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Speaker 1: But me and Parker we had a good hunt too.

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Speaker 1: We got three turkeys out of four and we should

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Speaker 1: have had four. So it was yeah, man, that stean

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Speaker 1: breath and turkey will live on forever. That's right, that's right. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll get you. We'll get you to replace with the

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Speaker 1: parts of it that we can help replace, like the

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Speaker 1: books and the steam breathing turkey poster. We'll get that

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Speaker 1: sorted out. I appreciate you all right. Thanks for calling

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Speaker 1: in on short notice or joining in on short notice. Man,

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Speaker 1: when I saw that, I knew I wanted to have

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Speaker 1: you on to talk about it because I was pretty upsetting. Well,

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. You guys are the best. Thank

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Speaker 1: you very much and look forward to talking to you soon. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I hope some dudes come in and kick down on that.

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Speaker 1: Go fund me and help you out. Man. Thanks a lot,

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Speaker 1: all right, take care of yourself well. When you want

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Speaker 1: to come out when everything goes back to normal, we'd

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Speaker 1: love to have you out in the studio. I'd love

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Speaker 1: to do it. Thank you, all right, dude, talk to

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Speaker 1: you soon, all right? Thanks? Oh yeah, So, Yanni, tell

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Speaker 1: me now what's going on with your dog and a

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Speaker 1: mountain lion and everything? Two mountain lions to be exact.

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Speaker 1: But mingus and I spent some time walking tracks and

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Speaker 1: and chasing lines is past week while you were in

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Speaker 1: pencils talking and uh we were with Jake Gribb, who

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Speaker 1: you know as well, buddy of ours. Oh yeah, we were.

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Speaker 1: You were you there? And he got that Bobcat recently. No,

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Speaker 1: I haven't been in on a bobcat uh kill yet,

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Speaker 1: but that guy is amazing. Man. I don't even know

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Speaker 1: how much we should really be like talking about how

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Speaker 1: much how good he is online, because he's gonna start

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Speaker 1: He's gonna be like that uh, that other Jake that

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Speaker 1: we know from Wisconsin people stalking because he knows we're

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Speaker 1: all the sturgeon are under the y you know, and

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Speaker 1: I'm afraid we'll put too much attention on him. But anyways, um,

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Speaker 1: I actually had a neighbor called me who had found

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Speaker 1: a track, so we we It was a day old

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Speaker 1: by the time we got to it, but we went

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Speaker 1: and ran it. Anyways, eventually got on the on the cat.

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Speaker 1: This was I think Monday morning on How did he

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Speaker 1: find the track? How did he find the track? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just I knew that he He lives just right

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Speaker 1: across the drainage from me, and I had told him

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Speaker 1: just to keep an eye out. And he was, you know,

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Speaker 1: a couple hundred yards behind his house, just doing a

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Speaker 1: little walk about with some family members, and uh and

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Speaker 1: stumbled into it. And uh so we we put the

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Speaker 1: cat up eventually, Um, it's late in the day by then,

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Speaker 1: it's like one or two pm. And uh, Mingus had

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Speaker 1: gotten had gotten to smell the We had eventually found

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Speaker 1: the fresher track that was the day of and he

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Speaker 1: had been on that track and smelled it a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Um and he took he took off down the track.

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Speaker 1: But five minutes later he came back. Jake's dog stayed

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Speaker 1: on it. He came back like, hey, guys, what's going on?

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Speaker 1: You know, like he just he doesn't have it quite

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Speaker 1: there to stay on it yet. Well, we get to

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Speaker 1: the tree. Jake's dogs are there treeing, barking up a storm,

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Speaker 1: and Mingus is like kind of joining in on the barking.

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Speaker 1: But more because he's like, hey, everybody else is barking.

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Speaker 1: I'll bark a few times too, write, but he just can't.

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Speaker 1: Like their cats kind of high, like I don't know,

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Speaker 1: twenty ft maybe twenty five and it's kind of a

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Speaker 1: pretty thick dug for a lot of branches in there,

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Speaker 1: and you just can't get a good view, like I'm

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Speaker 1: only seeing like you know, part of the tale, and

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Speaker 1: like if you just get right angle, you can see

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Speaker 1: his face, um, and you just like, he just can't

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Speaker 1: put two. He at that point, he couldn't put two

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Speaker 1: and two together. That what he was smelling on the

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Speaker 1: track equal this cat up in this tree. Right, So

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Speaker 1: no matter what I did, We're like, I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: take his head and pointed up into the tree and

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Speaker 1: Jake's looked at me like, dude, I've tried that a

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Speaker 1: thousand times. It just doesn't work. And so we spent

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Speaker 1: whatever half an hour there and uh, we took off.

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Speaker 1: So it was a little bit of a bummer because

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Speaker 1: I was like, man, we had invested, like you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. We started at five o'clock in the morning.

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Speaker 1: We walked out of there too. You know, it's a

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Speaker 1: long day and I didn't really feel that my dog

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Speaker 1: was any better for it, you know, It's just kind

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Speaker 1: of like, well, I guess we had to go do

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Speaker 1: it again. So two or three days later we went

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Speaker 1: to run another track, and this one was very fresh,

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Speaker 1: like like, you know, hours prior to Jake finding it.

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Speaker 1: It was laid in there. So we get on it,

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Speaker 1: and Jake he's got a young dog that he's on

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Speaker 1: a train well too, so Mingus kind of gets second pick.

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Speaker 1: And I was telling my girls. The best way to

399
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Speaker 1: understand it is like Mingus is probably a kindergartener as

400
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Speaker 1: far as like his level of understanding of this game.

401
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Speaker 1: Jake's eight months old is probably in like fourth fifth grade,

402
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Speaker 1: and then he's got like a two year old that's like,

403
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 1: you know, towards the end of high school, and he's

404
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Speaker 1: got one more that's a full on professional. So when

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Speaker 1: his eighth month old is running a fresh track, he

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Speaker 1: wants her to only be seeing what the other dogs

407
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Speaker 1: with more experience are doing. And he doesn't want a

408
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Speaker 1: dog like mine, who was a kindergartener, just run around

409
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Speaker 1: in circles half the time playing grab bass, you know,

410
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Speaker 1: ruining a good thing. So his dogs go first it's ah,

411
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Speaker 1: and I'm basically behind with Mingus on a leash and

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Speaker 1: just making sure that Mingus is literally taking every track,

413
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Speaker 1: every footstep of that line, putting his nose into it

414
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Speaker 1: and just walking. And it was great to watch because

415
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 1: you can actually see sometimes he'd get excited and he

416
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 1: veer off where the dog tracks went, but it wouldn't

417
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Speaker 1: take but five or six feet and he would jump

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Speaker 1: back to the actual line track. Well, I've been on

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Speaker 1: a few long ones, you and I have been on

420
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Speaker 1: a few long ones together. This one was like abnormally short,

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Speaker 1: like from the time we cut Jake's dogs loose, I

422
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Speaker 1: don't think, and the actual three minutes went by until

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Speaker 1: you heard the boo boo, boo boo, the constant bark. Serious, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it was fast. So we come over the

425
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: ridge and I look back at Jake. I'm like, are

426
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 1: they treating He's like, oh, yeah, this tree. So we

427
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 1: we walked down to Mingus and I follow the track

428
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: all the way to maybe fifty ft of the tree.

429
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: Now let go the leash and just let him run

430
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: in there, and you can see the cap plane his day.

431
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: This time, it's not quite as high. It's only fifteen

432
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 1: feet up or so ah. Same thing with his dogs.

433
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, two of them, the more experienced and the

434
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: and the pro or all over the tree. They know

435
00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: what's in the tree. They're barking up a storm. The

436
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: young this one is sort of like going around the

437
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 1: tree doing a lot of barking, like she knows that

438
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: that's what she's supposed to do, and that's where the

439
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: scent ends. And it was interesting to watch two. You

440
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 1: could tell when the thermals would come down just right

441
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: and that cat scent would come straight down to her nose,

442
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: she'd she'd light up, you know, mingus again. To three

443
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: minutes into being at this tree, he's kind of like

444
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: losing interest. He wants to run back on the track

445
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 1: because that's where it was exciting what he was smelling.

446
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: And he just can't put two and two together still.

447
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: And I know Jake that had he had told me,

448
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: like it's been, you can't do it. I've tried a

449
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: thousand times, but this time the cats like more wide

450
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: in the open. It's not as high. The hill is

451
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: so steep that you only had to take like five

452
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,479
Speaker 1: six seven steps back from the tree and you're almost

453
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: eye leveled this cat. So we're about in that. Help

454
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: what's that? Because I gotta understand when he says you

455
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: can't do it, he means you can't make a dog

456
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: look into a tree and see a cat. Yes, exactly,

457
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: because that's what you want to do. Like it's right there,

458
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: just like point his head in that direction. How could

459
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: you miss it? Can the dots? Yeah? And I think it.

460
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: He's he's smelling it. He just doesn't know what he's smelling. Again,

461
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: I was trying to explain to my daughters. I'm like,

462
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: if you were smelling an apple pie but had never

463
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: seen one and never tasted one, you don't you don't

464
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 1: have an image for what you're smelling. You know. Um,

465
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: even though this might smell good, it might be pleasurable,

466
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: I don't know what it looks like. Well, I had

467
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: to try it again. So I grabbed that dog's head

468
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: and I pointed at that, at that lion, and I'm

469
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: kind of like looking at him looking at the lion,

470
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: and man, it was like it was almost like that

471
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: his head kind of quivered and shook just for a second,

472
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: and then it just locked. And then the next thing

473
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: was I mean just blew my ear drum out and

474
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: just went berzerko. He was just like, holy sh it,

475
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: that's what said. That's what I've been smelling, that I

476
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: got it, and just he's like, everybody, look, everybody looks

477
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: lying in the tree exactly, and don't ever believe what

478
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: I found. You want to talk about one track mine.

479
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: At that point, we were just, you know, we're just

480
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: Jake and I are milling around. His youngest is kind

481
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: he doesn't know for sure, but kind of a tree climber,

482
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 1: so he's keeping a real eye on her to make

483
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 1: sure that she doesn't get too high up into this

484
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: tree because it had some low, pretty stout low branches,

485
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: so she was making it up six seven feet pretty quickly.

486
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: Of course he doesn't want her to do that, but

487
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: we're just milling around and talking and enjoying the situation.

488
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: Is so funny because every time I get between mingus

489
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: and that tree, he'd get real annoyed and like had

490
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: to jump to the side to be like, no, man,

491
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 1: I'm like, I got I gotta see this thing, em

492
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: bark at it, so don't get in my line of sight,

493
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 1: you know. Um, But yeah, very uh. It was just

494
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: a very awesome feeling as a dog owner, you know,

495
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: to see something like that click and to see it,

496
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: see it go down and see the dog get excited. Um,

497
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: that was sweet. The cool thing is you got him

498
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: from the pound and you yeah, yeah, he's a full

499
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: on Livingston Montana shelter dog. Yeah. Do you all? Is

500
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: there any a thing that you can't like? Like, can

501
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: that dog be a coon hound and a lion hound

502
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: or has you gotta like pick his pick his path

503
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: in life? No, I think that the the owner and

504
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: the handler has to uh do that. I think they're

505
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: they're they're probably only limited by how much their owner

506
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: trains them, I think is what I've been getting from most.

507
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there's some people out there that

508
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: tell you that will be better if they're just a

509
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: one one, one trick pony when it comes to that.

510
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: But I mean, certainly Jake's dogs do bob cats and lions,

511
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: and I know they're both cats. But I think that

512
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: if you just spend time with them, Um, they can

513
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: do it all. You know, they can figure out when

514
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: they're you know, supposed to be chasing one and supposed

515
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: to be chasing another. Yeah, are you gonna bring go ahead?

516
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: Don't doesn't Cowboy Cody's dogs down Colorado. They run anything

517
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: like pigs and cattle and that's the run. Yeah, they

518
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: run lions and cattle man, he said, they'll run whatever

519
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 1: he tells them to be interested in. Now, are you

520
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: bringing that dog when we go to Arkansas coon hunting

521
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: with Clay? Are you bringing that dog down? Yes? Sir?

522
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: How are you getting it there? Alane? You drug it

523
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: and fly it? Okay, Yeah, that's what I was planning on.

524
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe I should drive. I don't care

525
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: road trip. I was looking for you do to you

526
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 1: drugging it and flying it in the bottom of the airplane.

527
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: But whatever. You don't even have to drug them unless

528
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: you know you have to draw into I guess I

529
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: thought you need to drag them a little bit when

530
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: they're kind of wild dogs like that. There's some some

531
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: folks that think that, and a lot of other folks

532
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: that I've talked to you that are like, no, the

533
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: dog as long as the dogs comfortable and a kettle

534
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: a plane is the same as the back your track

535
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: gives the like they're just going, yeah, but you haven't

536
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: seen the honest dog. And have you seen the honest's

537
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: dog in the back of a truck. No, I don't

538
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: know what you're getting what I've had them in the

539
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: back of my track. I guess it's a loud it's

540
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: a big, loudass dog that makes a lot of noise. Man,

541
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: he can't be you'd hear him if you were in

542
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: the plane. They're trying to sleep. You're not gonna sleep

543
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: on the airplane. If that dogs underneath there, that would

544
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: be a fun airplane experience because you gotta think of

545
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,959
Speaker 1: how a few people understand what that is the baying

546
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: of a hound. Now, luckily I think that he's not.

547
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: He doesn't seem to have any sort of like separation

548
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: anxiety or you know, he doesn't seem to like how

549
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: ball mark whatever when we're not home. Um, So I

550
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't I don't expect that. I wouldn't

551
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: expect that to happen. I've only flown a dog once

552
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: and we didn't drug her. M I'm looking forward to

553
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: that trip, man. Oh yeah, me too, me too. You

554
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: know we already got a title for the episode, right, No,

555
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: please tell me A dog in the Fight. Oh that's

556
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: a good title. Now. I'm looking forward to making that episode. Man.

557
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: The only reason I didn't want to make it as

558
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: I don't know what we'd call it. I don't know,

559
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: go ahead, go ahead. I was just saying, I don't

560
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: know if I'm gonna talk about this about about hunting

561
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: the squirrels or the cones. Um. That's good news. I'm glad.

562
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: I like tracking the progress of mingus the dog um.

563
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: I want to move. Can we move down to this

564
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: this thing about how not to how not to damage

565
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: your scroll on a horse? Please? After that, I'm out

566
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: of where you going. I'm kidding. Oh, this dude wrote

567
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: in This is one of the more interesting guys that's

568
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: ever written in he Um. We had a podcast episode.

569
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: It was during the COVID pandemic. I remember that. I

570
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: think it was early pandemic. We had on our beloved friend,

571
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: Kevin Murphy, world's greatest small game hunter, who had recently

572
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: returned from Mongolia, and he had been doing some falconry

573
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: uh in Mongolia, and we talked about that, and we

574
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: got to talk about riding horses, and I got talking

575
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: about how hard it is to ride a horse without

576
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: damaging up your scroll. Um and for me at least,

577
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: and he rode in and he's this guy rode in,

578
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: and he's the most interesting guy I've heard from in

579
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: a while. He's a blacksmith and a horse trainer. Him

580
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: and his wife teach people to ride wrote and jump

581
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: on horseback. And he says that we're also naturist. And

582
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: I feel like I've heard this term because remember that

583
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: guy that rode in it was a naturist elk hunter. Yes, yeah,

584
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: he he bow hunts elk naked and was saying how

585
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: he could read the wind real good, like like he

586
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: never wonders what way. Yeah, like he never wonders what

587
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: way the winds on. It's like you just feel it naked.

588
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: So this guy's a this guy has a lot of

589
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: insight and riding and not hurting your your scroll. And

590
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: he goes on to say with a lot of other

591
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: people rode in to say about how if you're if

592
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: it's taken a beaten, you're like your seat is wrong.

593
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: You gotta sit the horse properly in a western saddle.

594
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: Your ass is tucked under you, you're pressed back into

595
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: the seat, your upright, you're not leaning forward your knees

596
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: or bent your heels down. He says that you can,

597
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: you can if you're sitting right, you can ride comfortably

598
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: with pants or no pants. But he says, this is

599
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: where it gets interested. He says, I still prefer a

600
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: pair of bike shorts or something that's underwear, because when

601
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: I am wearing clothes, my scroll them just kind of

602
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: relaxes and expects support. Then he goes on to say,

603
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: this is it's something that's never occurred to me before.

604
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: He spends enough time nude around the farm and around

605
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: the woods that he claims that his testicles have retained

606
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: the natural ability, which I didn't know is like that

607
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: that you lose it, But he he retains the natural

608
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: ability to retract and firm up in times of physical activity,

609
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: like when running or chopping wood or hunting a stretching routine.

610
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: It's like hold on limber am tighten up. So he's

611
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: saying that most fellows like us, who run around like

612
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: suckers wearing their clothes all the time, that you're losing

613
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: your ability two retract and firm up. But that he

614
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: has retained the ability to retract and firm up. And

615
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: then that has nothing to do with the fact that

616
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: his nuts are cold. He's like, I retain the ability

617
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: to firm up in cold water. So my advice is,

618
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: he says, Dude, dude, I'm not even half Joe. I

619
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,479
Speaker 1: like this guy a bunch. I don't want to seem

620
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: like in any way in any way that I'm like

621
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: like I would go hang out with this guy. My

622
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: advice is, unless you're gonna spend a lot of time

623
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: nude and exercising the muscles that retract your boys up

624
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: into your pelvis like a samurai, where something for support,

625
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: and learn to sit properly in the saddles. So he's saying,

626
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: there's a binary decision to be made here, go neude

627
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: enough that the boys learn where to ride on their

628
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: own or sit right. So I have I'm at a decision.

629
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: I'm at a a pivot point as a rider this

630
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 1: and I'm suggests that, Uh, the overwhelming majority of people

631
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: have learned to sit right and skip the nunity party

632
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: with virtually virtually everyone that I see riding nowadays has

633
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: taken these second choice. But when we go down to

634
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: hunt coons with Clay, we're gonna be riding around on

635
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: mules and Yan, I just don't want you to be

636
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: surprised if you see some things you maybe don't want

637
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: to see. Oh, I'm fine, Well, yeah, do what you

638
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: gotta do. Man, I just think of all the like

639
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 1: pasty white, transparent, old rancher skim that has never seen

640
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,959
Speaker 1: the light of day, really reinforces the people just learned

641
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: how to sit right. Yeah, sure, Cal, you know you

642
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: know what I want to do. I want to move

643
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: into something for that Cal is gonna talk about, but

644
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: I want to break up Jim Heffelfingers responsibilities. Jim, do

645
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: you mind um telling everybody what you were telling me

646
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: about about the ocelot and the jaguar and all that,

647
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: And are you gonna be able to share those images

648
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: so people can go see them. The images are actually

649
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: embedded into scientific paper and I would just sent this

650
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: morning this paper and it was just a short note

651
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: and it has a series of photos nighttime photos from

652
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: a trail cam that's next to a water catchment in

653
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: northern Guatemala where there's ocelots and jaguars both and they

654
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: had images of a jaguar coming into the water, taking

655
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: a drink and then going back off into the darkness.

656
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: And while it or a taper comes by and drinks

657
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: out of the water, and the jaguar don't leaves it alone.

658
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: Taper leaves, and then a little as lot comes in,

659
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: starts drinking, and the jaguar pounces out of the darkness,

660
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: kills the jag kills the ocelot, and then drags the

661
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 1: ocelot off, And the scientific paper has the images embedded

662
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: in the paper itself. But then there's some note that

663
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: I haven't followed yet that says that there's supplemental information,

664
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: which usually means there's more information somewhere online. But a

665
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: lot of times those scientific papers are are you've got

666
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: to subscribe to the journals to get into. It's not

667
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: always open access. So I haven't checked yet whether those

668
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: images are available. I can send you the paper and

669
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: we can see if that's available in the public. Why

670
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: do you think he would kill um? Why would he

671
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 1: not kill the tape here, but he would kill the ocelot. Yeah,

672
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: those the tapers are kind of big, but that's part

673
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: of their that's part of their diet down there in

674
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: the jungle. Why he would kill an azla? That's what

675
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: makes it so bizarre, That's what makes it so noteworthy

676
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: to show up in a scientific paper as a note.

677
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: It's just it's not really a competitor, so it's strange. Well,

678
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: and I don't think we know for sure just from

679
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: those pictures if the thing disappeared into the darkness, that

680
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: it was necessarily just sitting there that whole time period,

681
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: and maybe it was out for a walk about while

682
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: the tape here was there just happened to be back

683
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: when the oslats showed up. I mean, is there like

684
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: any evidence that they do the same thing that wolves

685
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: do with coyotes and just kill him to kill them

686
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 1: like they're just I don't think there's a lot of

687
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: evidence of cats doing that because they're more solitary animals,

688
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: just living in the jungle, kind of doing their own things.

689
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: So it's pretty strange. Hey, do you think, Jim, right now,

690
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: at this like very second, do you think there are

691
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: is a jaguar in the US right now? Do they know?

692
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know. We normally have had one,

693
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: it's not always the same one. We've normally had one,

694
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: But I haven't heard since before we talked last time.

695
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: It has been a year since I've heard any fresh information,

696
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 1: So I don't really know. Yeah, so there might not be. Yeah,

697
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: I can't remember. Do you root for jaguars root against jaguars?

698
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: So have we had that conversation. I root for the

699
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 1: same thing you do, that they continue to be able

700
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 1: to come up and visit and hang out in these

701
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: mountain islands in southeastern Arizona. There was some talk and

702
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: there still is, of putting them the crates and moving

703
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: them to the Pondrosa Pine high elevation forest in central Arizona.

704
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: And that doesn't make any sense to me. Oh yeah,

705
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: why not? Why doesn't it make any sense? Oh? There

706
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: that was that was really beyond the range of um

707
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: the core of jaguar habitats. So there's like there's hundreds

708
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: of over a hundred thousand jaguars throughout the range in

709
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: Central America, and the Amazon is the epicenter of jaguars.

710
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: And they came up, and they came out and visited Arizona,

711
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: New Mexico. They came up, being a little farther than

712
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: that in prehistoric times like the places the scene. But

713
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: this Arizona, New Mexico is a northern fringe of their habitat,

714
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: and they should be able to do what what animals

715
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: do with the northern fringe, come up and visit and

716
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: colonize and stay. But this really isn't the core of

717
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: their habitat, and to take them from other populations like

718
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: northern Mexico and then putting them up into what is

719
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: really not good jaguar habits had a real dry ponderos

720
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: of pine forest is not ideal jaguar habitat, even though

721
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: a two hundred years ago we have some evidence of

722
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: them moving through there. So it's like trying to re

723
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: They would be trying to re establish a population in

724
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: a place where you feel it would be dubious at

725
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: best to say that they were that they had a

726
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: breeding population there. Yeah, we know a lot about what

727
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: kind of habitat jaguar do really well on, and they

728
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: do the best in those more tropical habitats, and then

729
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 1: they do okay in in areas like northern Mexico and

730
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: the mountains and the sky Islands in southeastern Arizona and

731
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: central Arizona were just really areas where they moved through.

732
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: And like we talked about last time, but if you

733
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: look at the Native American cultures in the southwestern Arizona,

734
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: New Mexico, the jaguar wasn't part of their their culture.

735
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: They don't have motif they didn't revere the jaguar and

736
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: that's really the case in Central America where they were

737
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: really common and writing center of their distribution. Oh man, I,

738
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we've talked about this for I

739
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: love those things. I think it would be you know,

740
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 1: it'd be pretty great to be walking through the woods

741
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: and there's one standing there. Now. I did send you

742
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: that book Borderland Jaguars. Did you go, yeah, yeah, yeah,

743
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: I like that book. I like that book. That's got

744
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: a good documentation of these jaguars in this northern end

745
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,439
Speaker 1: of their habitat. Yep, all right, cal uh, We're gonna

746
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: touch on this a little bit because this dude rode

747
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 1: in Um. It's kind of interesting. A guy wrote in

748
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: about possession limits and he's not the first person to

749
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 1: write in about possession limits, and just some people understand

750
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. We talk about possession limits to

751
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: be in hunting, you'll you'll quite often see that you'll

752
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: encounter a species where you have a what's called the

753
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 1: daily bag limit. And this goes for fishing, this goes

754
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: for hunting. For our case here, let's say that we're

755
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: talking about fishing. Let's say you go somewhere and they

756
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: have a daily bag limit of five walleye. Okay, that

757
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: means in a day, in a given day, you're allowed

758
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: to catch and retain five walleye. You'll often see tack

759
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: down to that, a possession limit would be Typically, it's

760
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 1: very common to see a possession limit be two daily

761
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: bag limits. What that would mean is, let's say you're

762
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: camping out and you're you gotta fish camp set up,

763
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 1: you're at the river access, you got your camp or

764
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: trader there, um, you've been there for a couple of days.

765
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: They're saying that you could have in your cooler or

766
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: in your camp two bag limits. That doesn't mean that

767
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: out in your boat, in your live will you have

768
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: to bag limits. But like you went out caught five

769
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: on Saturday, you went out and caught five on Sunday.

770
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: They're cool with you having Saturday and Sunday's daily bag

771
00:42:54,440 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 1: limits in your possession. And this this system starts to

772
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: get really complicated for people because a lot of times

773
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: it winds up being like, Okay, does that mean that

774
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: I can have it in my freezer at home? What

775
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: if I have it where I've already turned it into

776
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: a jerky or sausage, does that count as my limit?

777
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: This guy that wrote in, brought up a really interesting

778
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: twist on this question of how possession limits work, where

779
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: he says he it is dude from Illinois, writes in.

780
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: He says, for example, Illinois has an early goose season

781
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: in September, but there are two zones with different limits.

782
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: The North zone has a five goose daily limit and

783
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: a fifteen goose possession limits, so there you can have

784
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: three daily bag limits. The South zone has a two

785
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: goose daily limit and a six goose possession limit. He

786
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 1: then goes down to ask, let's say I live in

787
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: the South zone but hunt for three days in the

788
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: North zone and bring home eight geese. Am I breaking

789
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: the law since I am two over the possession limit?

790
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: Or another scenario, I live in the North zone and

791
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: have twelve geese in my freezer from the early season.

792
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: Then in October the regular water fall season starts and

793
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: the possession limit changes to nine. Am I then violating

794
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: the law? Cal take this one away. So this is

795
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 1: a great, great topic, and um it, it really doesn't

796
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: get confusing as long as you keep in mind that

797
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 1: hunting is a management tool and fishing is a management tool,

798
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: and your bag limits and possession limits change by state,

799
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 1: by zone, by region, uh, and by and by fishery

800
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: and fly away um, such as the North South zone

801
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: uh that this fellow rode in with. And in Montana,

802
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 1: all right, we have a Pacific flyway and a Central

803
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 1: flyway that you can hunt without leaving the state and

804
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: UM it gets really interesting when you start looking at

805
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: fisheries as well. A great example, right is your your

806
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:14,919
Speaker 1: bucket biology examples of taking let's say, perch and uh

807
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: dumping them in to new ponds. So there's an example

808
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: here in the state of Montana where uh you can

809
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: have uh two bodies of water on the same highway.

810
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: One has a daily possession limit or I'm sorry, daily

811
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: bag limit. You know, your daily take of perch. The

812
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: possession limit is three times the daily take it. Possession

813
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 1: in Montana is your possession of that species in total.

814
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 1: So it means what you have on you, what you

815
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: have at your camp, whatever that camp maybe, and whatever

816
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: you have at your home. Uh. It doesn't say the

817
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: example that the uh dude rode in with is hilarious

818
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: because he threw on something that I hadn't even thought of.

819
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: When she's like, well, what if I have a mounted

820
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: bird on my wall? It's like it's a bird. A

821
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: great question. I hadn't thought of it. UM. And in

822
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 1: the state of Montana, it doesn't say anything about taxidermy. UM.

823
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: It does in the fact that if you're going to

824
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 1: transfer a bird to a taxidermist, the state that it

825
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: needs to be in. UM. But possession limit is anything

826
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: cammed smoked. It implies whatever state that meat is in,

827
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: if it is the species in question, it pertains to

828
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: your possession limit. So to finish with this example, if

829
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,959
Speaker 1: you go further down the same highway into a new

830
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: drainage where they have somebody has transplanted those perch illegally

831
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: into this other fishery where they do not want the perch.

832
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: There is no daily limit on perch, and there is

833
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 1: no daily possession limit on perch. So what the hell

834
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 1: does a game warden do then, especially if Steve's fishing

835
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: at the reservoir where there is a daily limit and

836
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: a possession limit, and I want to stop in and

837
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: see Steve on my way home, which would make sense

838
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: because it's on the same highway, right, But I have

839
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 1: a cooler full of fish that are totally illegal. I

840
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: just happened to be passing through a zone where had

841
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: I been fishing and catching fish in that zone, it

842
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: would then be illegal. Um. I I had to call

843
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: a game warden on this add you know they they

844
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: laugh typically because the what ifs can really run rampant,

845
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: but UM, you know it always comes down to a

846
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 1: game warden's discretion. UM. And those possession limits, the definition

847
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: of possession is different in every state. So I was

848
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: looking at an example. Uh, this couple of guys in

849
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: Texas got caught with boy I can't even remember now,

850
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: like seven times the daily uh or seven times the

851
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: possession limit. The legal possession limit for croppy A ton

852
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: of croppy. UM, very illegal. But if you read the

853
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 1: law in Texas the way the possession limit is written

854
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: in Texas, if you have a permanent camp as in

855
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: a real deal cabin that you live at and can

856
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: get mail at, your possession Anything that you store at

857
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: that place does not count towards your possession limit. But

858
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: if your buddy is right right next to your cabin

859
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: where you get your mail, and they're in a camper

860
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: trailer that they do not get their mail at, the

861
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: fish that they bring back to their camper trailer counts

862
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: against their possession limit. So to me, that's almost like

863
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: an odd sort of you're kind of getting into the

864
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: halves and have not there where. It's like, well, if

865
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: you can afford to have a house on the lake,

866
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: not a house two blocks from the lake, you're more

867
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: than likely to be able to retain a hell of

868
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: a lot more fish just because you don't have to

869
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: spend time and travel to get the fish to the

870
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 1: place where they don't count against your possession limit. Um,

871
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: I don't think, let me yes, go ahead. I want

872
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 1: I want to throw another wrinkle into this, and I

873
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: know we're like that maybe you have a final hopefully

874
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: you have like an answer, because we're like it's like

875
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: a question with a question, because these are all things

876
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 1: that I ought to be curious that you have. Jim

877
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 1: speak to this too. I feel like these are things

878
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: that are are well meaning laws that are so confusing

879
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: that it's like setting people up for failure because you

880
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,879
Speaker 1: can't figure out how to be compliant, Like you cal

881
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: you brought up. Let's say you go get a bunch

882
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: of geese and you make sausage. Yeah, I mean so

883
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: now you have a bunch of goose sausage sticks. Uh,

884
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 1: how do you figure out like you still you save

885
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: one bag of goose sausage sticks and then the next

886
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: goose season starts up. How do you go like, Okay,

887
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: I need to account for this, being like what is

888
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 1: this portions of five geese? Is this like a goose

889
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: is worth? I feel like you're putting people into a

890
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: situation where you're kind of like and it's probably why

891
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 1: you don't read about people getting busted for this stuff

892
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 1: unless they're like big time poachers, because you can't roll

893
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: into someone's house dismantled their freezer and start trying to

894
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 1: reconstruct their last year of activities and and that that

895
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 1: is the answer, though, is documentation. And in this day

896
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: and age that it's so easy to to document. Um,

897
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: so you know, you just got to label your stuff

898
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: and you do need to be accountable for it. Um.

899
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're exactly right, Like a bag of jerky,

900
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 1: I turned a lot of meat into jerky last year,

901
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: Um it was it was big game, so it's easy

902
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: to take keep track of. But um yeah, if if

903
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: game wardens came into the house and grabbed that bag

904
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: of jerky and decided to start doing uh DNA analysis

905
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 1: on it, you know they're gonna have a single bag

906
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 1: that has an elk from Idaho, a mule deer from Idaho,

907
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: a cuse deer from Mexico, you know, and or coots

908
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: and yeah, and and that. You know, all that testing

909
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: costs money, So what's what's the end result gonna be? Right? So? Um?

910
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: In waterfowl terms, you know, Canada geese and Montana right

911
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 1: now are like a plague. I've never seen so many

912
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 1: birds in my entire life. It is unbelievable. Um. But

913
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: you know, if if you know, big goose spreads, lots

914
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 1: of decoys are big investment. And I just started kind

915
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: of doing the math on if you really wanted to

916
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: get involved in goose hunting and have all the decoys

917
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 1: and be compliant with the law as it's written. In

918
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: order for you to just go and hunt Saturday and

919
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 1: Sunday and shoot limits of geese, you have to, I mean,

920
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: every licensed hunter in your household has to eat six

921
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: Canada geese per week during during Monday through Friday, you

922
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: have to eat six candidate if you want to keep

923
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 1: at it. Yeah, I'm sorry, Tim, right, so yeah, tan

924
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 1: tan Canada geese per week per licensed hunter if you

925
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: want to keep at it um and then we can

926
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: have beyond that. So we one time asked the UH

927
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 1: state trooper in Alaska, you don't have game wardens or troopers,

928
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: but we asked the trooper, we're trying to understand possession

929
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: limits and how it works there. And let's say you

930
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 1: have UH Let's say you happen to have a fish shack,

931
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 1: and at this fish shack you have a freezer, and

932
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 1: you're curious. Okay, if a haliban possession limit is two

933
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: daily bag limits, that means you're allowed to have four

934
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 1: haliban in your possession. The way when when we were

935
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 1: trying to get clarity on how this worked, we spoke

936
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 1: to troopers who said that the men it it's processed

937
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:09,240
Speaker 1: for consumption, it no longer is in your possession limit,

938
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 1: Meaning if you go, if you get to haliban and

939
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: you take them home, and you filly those haliban and

940
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 1: portion them and vaccine limb and freeze them, they're no

941
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: longer in your possession. Then it's just a matter of

942
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,959
Speaker 1: that your daily bag limits don't exceed how many days

943
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 1: you've been at your cabin, meaning if you're at your

944
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 1: cabin five days, you could theoretically freeze ten haliban, but

945
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 1: you better not have twelve because you haven't been there

946
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: that many days to have accumulated them. And when we

947
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: talked about okay, like what about something that you're not cleaning,

948
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: Like let's say you're talking about shrimp. Okay, you catch

949
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: shrimp and you just freeze the tails and you can

950
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,320
Speaker 1: be on the water with just shrimp tail because you

951
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: allowed three quarts of shrimp tails. So I haven't done it.

952
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: I haven't processed it. All I did is freeze it.

953
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: And they said, if that's how you process it, if

954
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,760
Speaker 1: that's how you freeze it for later consumption, we would

955
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: regard that as being processed. So when I just throw

956
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 1: my whole poach deer straight into that baild freezer, I got,

957
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 1: I'm good to go. If that's how you like to

958
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 1: eat it later. Yes, I saved the guts that way. Um.

959
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 1: So you're like, this is how I cook, this is

960
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 1: how I cook them. Here's another wrinkle, right, Um, my

961
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 1: girlfriend shot four geese and brought four geese home. She

962
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: doesn't put the geese and her freezer. She puts them

963
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 1: in my freezer. So those four geese are labeled with

964
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:59,800
Speaker 1: her information. Um, and but they're they're at my residence.

965
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: I get my mail with my geese that because of

966
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: the overlap, I have labeled with my information as well. Right,

967
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 1: and this is like paranoia basically, like very few, but

968
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 1: I feel like that would. I feel like a warden

969
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: would respect that system. They I think they would as

970
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 1: long as they were, uh, you know, not looking to

971
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: find something else. I guess I think you know, as

972
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,320
Speaker 1: most of these wardens that you talk with, Right, it's like, um,

973
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 1: we uh, I have no reason to doubt you until

974
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: we do. And then if we're gonna make a case,

975
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: we're gonna um make sure that we make the whole

976
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: case essentially. Yeah, you know a good way to look

977
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: at Oh sorry, go ahead, Yeah, go ahead. I was

978
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 1: gonna point out. I was gonna point out a helpful

979
00:56:56,320 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 1: way to look at this kind of stuff. Uh. We

980
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,799
Speaker 1: have a friend cow and your friendly with him too,

981
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: who used to he's a lawyer and he used to

982
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: represent the Wyoming He used to represent Wyoming as their

983
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: head attorney, the Fishing Game Department. And he we were

984
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: talking about all these arcane or these like little known

985
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: rules and ways that seems like you could get in trouble.

986
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: And we got on the subject of of bartering and

987
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: selling wild game. Okay, it's illegal to barter in trade

988
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: with wild game, like you can't use it like currency, right,

989
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 1: so it would be illegal for someone to you to

990
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: go to the guy that changes your oil and he's like,

991
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: oh yeah, don't worry about it, man um, happy to

992
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 1: do it. Just make sure to drop me by a

993
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 1: couple of walife lays next weekend. You're technically breaking the

994
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: law because you're bartering and trading with wild game. But

995
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 1: this attorney invited me to go and look at what,

996
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: he goes, Go look at where you actually see that

997
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 1: and forcement tool applied to people, he said, Only you'll

998
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: only find it get applied in places where you have

999
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: someone who is in a real, real bad position, and

1000
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: you'll find that Awarden will then add on every possible

1001
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: thing he can add on, so that when you start

1002
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 1: pleaing down, you have a mountainous ship to plea through.

1003
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: And he goes, that's he goes, that's the only situations

1004
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: where I see like this bartering and trading thing coming

1005
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: up when it's someone who's done like some really bad

1006
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: stuff and they're going through and they're being like, Okay,

1007
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: three counts of this. We're gonna add counts of this.

1008
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: We're gonna add counts to that, and it just winds

1009
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: up being, um, it winds up being a way to

1010
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: just lay it on heavy when someone really has it

1011
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 1: coming and and they kind of need to write because

1012
00:58:54,320 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: a lot of these you look at so many wildlife violations, uh,

1013
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 1: spread all over all the news sources, and inevitably, UM,

1014
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: people who are in the know and people who are

1015
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: just being exposed to this stuff for the first time

1016
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: come the same conclusion. Right, It's like, that is a

1017
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: reprehensible crime. I can't believe they got away so easy.

1018
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: But the reality is a lot of times that that

1019
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: is exactly what the law provides for. It's like, well

1020
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 1: that if you look at it, that is a maximum

1021
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: allowable fine of you know, five d a thousand dollars,

1022
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 1: two fifty dollars. And it's like, so that's why, um,

1023
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 1: when it's time to nail somebody, it's like stack them

1024
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 1: up because mhmm. If they get out of some of it,

1025
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: it's just it's not almost not even worth our time

1026
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: type of thing. So it's I called it. I called

1027
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 1: the warden the other day because we're having a hard time.

1028
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: We're arguing a lot about the law that we couldn't

1029
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 1: figure out what it meant. And I got to the

1030
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 1: point where I decided it wasn't just me, like, like

1031
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: I felt that it didn't make sense. And when I

1032
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 1: got him on the phone and I invited him to

1033
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: go read it, he read it. And it was kind

1034
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: of funny because he read it and he's kind of like, huh, yeah,

1035
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 1: you know, but then was able to solve it for me,

1036
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: like he saw something that I didn't see. But it

1037
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 1: was just it was an interesting interaction to have with

1038
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:37,439
Speaker 1: someone to be confused about the law. Call up. They're

1039
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 1: really glad that you called. They respect the fact that

1040
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 1: you're trying to sort it out. And then it wasn't

1041
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: like you dumbass, It was like, oh, I see where

1042
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 1: you're confused here, let's look through it. Uh, consider this.

1043
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 1: And that's a way better interaction to have than to

1044
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 1: wait till later and get in trouble and then be like,

1045
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: but it is confusing, because at that point it's like

1046
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: you probably should have cleared up, cleared up the confusion. Great,

1047
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: great example, right. I called the Region three Montana Fishing

1048
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 1: Game Office the other day talking about accessing, um, some

1049
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 1: ground that would fall within the this late c w

1050
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 1: D hunt that we have going on, chronic wasting disease

1051
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: mitigation deal um, and Warden was super helpful and and

1052
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 1: um we're talking. He's like, now, remember, Montana stream access

1053
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: law does not provide for big game hunting. It provides

1054
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 1: for recreation and fishing. So if you want to access

1055
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: that spot, you better float to it or drag a

1056
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 1: canoe with you. So I could legally drag the canoe upstream,

1057
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: paddle the canoe upstream, and have the situation where I've

1058
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 1: got a boat with me, so I haven't exactly just

1059
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 1: walked the high water mark line. Am Uh, that would

1060
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: make it more legal. And I said. I was like, yeah, yeah,

1061
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 1: I'm familiar with this. I understand it. Um, but you

1062
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: know this just is not right. This like law is

1063
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 1: designed to make your life a living hell. Right And

1064
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 1: he said, well, how so? And I said, well, because

1065
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 1: in the state of Montana, no matter what season it is,

1066
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: hunting season or not, it's one legal two carry a

1067
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:48,439
Speaker 1: firearm anywhere I want on public land under the high

1068
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 1: water mark. So how can it be legal to hike

1069
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 1: in under the high water mark with a rifle. Ah,

1070
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 1: I could be wearing orange or not and just say like, well,

1071
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: I don't have the intention to hunt game. I know

1072
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 1: other people are out here, so I'm wearing orange to

1073
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 1: be safe, and I like having my rifle with me.

1074
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 1: And then I had to change your mind and decided

1075
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: to hunt. You know. It's just that may work on

1076
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: the way in, but not on the way out with it. Yeah,

1077
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:22,360
Speaker 1: but you want to go to court dragging your boat

1078
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 1: and what's recreation? Yeah, Like it seems pretty obvious what

1079
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:29,919
Speaker 1: you're trying to accomplish. So like the fact that you're like, oh,

1080
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 1: but I have a boat with me. I mean, I

1081
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 1: know the game wardens saying that's the way to cover

1082
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: your ass, but it doesn't seem right. You could have. Yeah,

1083
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: it's just it's a odd, odd thing. But there's a

1084
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 1: lot of that out there, and it's like, do you

1085
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 1: want to take the Montana stream access law to court

1086
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: um and try to get a specific provision put in

1087
01:03:56,080 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 1: for big game hunting where you could possibly uh, you know,

1088
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 1: they're screwing it up for everybody somehow, someway they tried

1089
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 1: to make laws black and white, but the reality is

1090
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 1: there's just a whole bunch of gray in between. Oh yeah,

1091
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 1: and that's the fun parts to pick at. Man. I

1092
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 1: had another interaction we'll move on after this, but another

1093
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: interaction with a warden where I was looking at a

1094
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:29,959
Speaker 1: spot on a map and I was like, I, it's

1095
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 1: it occurred to me that a fellow would be able

1096
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 1: to go do a certain activity there that just seemed

1097
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 1: like he shouldn't be able to. And I said, I said, man,

1098
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 1: I keep looking at this and it just seems to

1099
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: me like you'd be able to do X there. And

1100
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 1: he was inviting me to He's like, why does it

1101
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: seem not right to you? Like was asking wanted me

1102
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 1: to entertain this to myself and see if there was

1103
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: something there or not right. Other than being like, ah,

1104
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 1: I found a secret, you know, he was kind of

1105
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 1: like inviting to use some discretion and not try to

1106
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 1: view it like can I get away with something that

1107
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:29,560
Speaker 1: maybe feels a little funny, you know, but it's not enforcement? Yanni.

1108
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:30,920
Speaker 1: You here's the thing I wanted to mention to you,

1109
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: and it's interesting you two cal I think, is Yanni

1110
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: you guys have you guys actually you guys have had

1111
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:43,080
Speaker 1: babies at your house, right correct too. And then the

1112
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 1: human babies like like birthing babies. Yeah, not just like

1113
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 1: baby party. Did you use did you burn them into

1114
01:05:53,320 --> 01:06:00,760
Speaker 1: the water? Um, I'm trying to think now, both times

1115
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:03,920
Speaker 1: we had uh we're looking at an image here of

1116
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 1: a the blow up bathtub that babies are burthen too.

1117
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes both times we had those setups. But I believe it. No,

1118
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 1: I want to say, baltim, we're just on the bed um.

1119
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 1: I think that my wife actually found it too relaxing,

1120
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 1: and it took her out of that mode of get

1121
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 1: baby out and took her into more chill mode and

1122
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:30,920
Speaker 1: and and yeah, so it didn't happen in the water. Yeah,

1123
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 1: well that's interesting. This dude wrote in that his wife

1124
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 1: was having a baby at home and they had a

1125
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: little kiddie pool they filled up with water, and he

1126
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 1: took his Suvie circulator out of his kitchen and set

1127
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 1: the Suvie circulator in there to keep it at the

1128
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: right til very good thing, which is which is genius man,

1129
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 1: like a suvied baby. I might just I mean, next time,

1130
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:00,120
Speaker 1: I don't take baths often, but next time, my you,

1131
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 1: I mean, the aren't we have like a porcelain claw footer,

1132
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 1: you know, and uh, boy, you start off nice and

1133
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 1: cozy and then and then you know, you read a

1134
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 1: half a chapter and it's kind of a kind of

1135
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 1: a tepid bath and it's not so much fun anymore.

1136
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 1: So this might be a thing, a little mini whirlpool.

1137
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, you take you set that suvie thing

1138
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 1: at like one o two and jump in there. It

1139
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 1: would be like great. Man. Uh, this other guy a

1140
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:27,040
Speaker 1: real quick. This other guy wrote in he he got

1141
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 1: the new survival book, the wind n Skills and Survival Book,

1142
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:32,360
Speaker 1: and he went on his trip, uh and the Great

1143
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:35,959
Speaker 1: Smoky National Park with his girlfriend, five day backpacking track

1144
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 1: and they ran in all these weather problems and the

1145
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 1: weather got all bad and everybody got all cold, and

1146
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 1: it was it turned into kind of an unexpected survival situation.

1147
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 1: And he wrote in to say that he used he

1148
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 1: actually burned the book and it worked great. He but

1149
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:00,920
Speaker 1: he said, he leankfully. He already read all the pages.

1150
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 1: It was all wet on the rim, but he found

1151
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 1: dry in the middle and burned the book and save

1152
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 1: the day. I feel like that dude deserves and no,

1153
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 1: he deserves a new book. I think man, definitely I

1154
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:14,640
Speaker 1: like his little description too, when he says, uh, later

1155
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 1: that evening, after he's all wet. He said it began

1156
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: to rain, didn't stop raining for thirty hours. And not

1157
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 1: only was it raining, the air seemed to be so

1158
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: thick with moisture I could almost drink and breathe at

1159
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,320
Speaker 1: the same time. That line caught my eye too. Man,

1160
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 1: he's got a he's like a he's a word smith.

1161
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:34,800
Speaker 1: He's like a little bit of a writer. He's pouring

1162
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 1: it on heavy. I'll admit I was getting skeptical after

1163
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 1: a while. Then I saw the picture of the book,

1164
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 1: and I believe him. Oh no, that that books, that

1165
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 1: book's been through hell man, But I feel like we should.

1166
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:47,600
Speaker 1: I gotta try to figure it out and remember to

1167
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 1: send his dude named Dylan out of Omaha, Nebraska, to

1168
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 1: send his dude a new book to replace the book

1169
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 1: he had to burn up. It's nice to know when

1170
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:57,800
Speaker 1: your books come in handy, you know what I mean? Yeah, Well,

1171
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:00,360
Speaker 1: the and this is exactly what that book was it for,

1172
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:05,880
Speaker 1: exactly what this guy ran into like just out for

1173
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:08,599
Speaker 1: kind of a I don't want to say mundane, but

1174
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 1: like just a little regular outing, not some crazy, big adventure.

1175
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 1: It was a three hour tour. All right, there's another

1176
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:21,599
Speaker 1: thing I want to get into, and then we're gonna

1177
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:27,759
Speaker 1: have Dn Jim Hefelfinger is gonna swing back in for us. Uh. Chris,

1178
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:31,560
Speaker 1: Chris gilt Ridge Pounder is he's he's been on. He

1179
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 1: comes on the show quite a bit. He's working on

1180
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:40,160
Speaker 1: a fine art project, oh where he's been taking pictures

1181
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 1: of funked up old deer stands. And we've been talking

1182
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 1: about how we want to do a coffee table book,

1183
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:52,240
Speaker 1: a fine art coffee table book called fucked Up Old

1184
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 1: deer Stands. It's gonna be We created an email. It's

1185
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 1: like he's only got like he's got six or seven

1186
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 1: that are bookworthy. But to really do a good book

1187
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:07,720
Speaker 1: that we can sell next Christmas. To really do a

1188
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 1: good book, we need like fifty great photos. So we're

1189
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:18,080
Speaker 1: gonna start a crowd source. Chris Skills. Rich Pounder is

1190
01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:21,160
Speaker 1: the photo editor, so he's gonna do primary photography. He'll

1191
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: probably have more pictures than anybody else. But if you

1192
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 1: do a picture and see you the listener, send your

1193
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 1: pictures in, your pictures might make the fine art coffee

1194
01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:38,840
Speaker 1: table book. So we made an email it's fucked up

1195
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:44,599
Speaker 1: old deer stands at the meat eater dot com. Send

1196
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:48,400
Speaker 1: in your pictures. Cryst'll get him. We'll contact you for

1197
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:52,240
Speaker 1: permissions and everything. And you gotta find the oldest, jan

1198
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 1: kiest Like we're talking about the kind of old stands

1199
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 1: that like look real hazardous to get into in a

1200
01:10:56,920 --> 01:10:59,639
Speaker 1: long like fifty years ago someone nailed to tarp up

1201
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 1: and it's just blue fray blown in the wind, like

1202
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 1: the worst old deer stand you know about. It could

1203
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 1: be a tree stand, ground blind, whatever. Send a picture,

1204
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 1: and Chris might need to advise you on how to

1205
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:15,479
Speaker 1: get the right picture, because you remember, this is not

1206
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:19,960
Speaker 1: this isn't dear camp humor. This isn't like a hat

1207
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 1: that says, you know, I didn't wake up grumpy this morning.

1208
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 1: I let her sleep. It's not like that kind of stuff.

1209
01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 1: It's like fine art. It's fine art photos, No people,

1210
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 1: fine art photographs of funked up old deer stands. So

1211
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 1: send your if you're thinking about getting this done with

1212
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:42,720
Speaker 1: your brand new iPhone twelve pro, don't bother you. No,

1213
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:50,160
Speaker 1: maybe you can, I don't know, maybe they're maybe Yep.

1214
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:53,679
Speaker 1: The email is set up. Fucked up old deer stands

1215
01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 1: at the media dot Com. Send him in. Eventually Cris

1216
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:01,080
Speaker 1: will start digging around in there. We'll notify you and

1217
01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:02,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna make a book, and we're gonna have it

1218
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 1: be for next Christmas where you'll be able to buy

1219
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 1: um a fine art coffee table book under that title.

1220
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 1: That's the title of the book. It's already been decided,

1221
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 1: so run out, go ahead. I was just gonna ask,

1222
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:22,640
Speaker 1: do you have I feel like we're going to be inundated.

1223
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 1: It's gonna be a thick book. Then yeah, I'm thinking

1224
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 1: there's gonna be way more than fifty pictures. Uh. I

1225
01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:32,879
Speaker 1: mean Chris alone, just on the little chunk of property

1226
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:35,360
Speaker 1: that he and I hunted together this year in Wisconsin.

1227
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:37,679
Speaker 1: I think he got to take pictures of six different

1228
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:41,720
Speaker 1: very fucked up old deer stands, and well, I think

1229
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:43,720
Speaker 1: that's the six he's talking about, and he got he

1230
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 1: got another one, might have two very funked up old

1231
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 1: deer stands to narrow it down. And I know if

1232
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:53,519
Speaker 1: he got another, I know if too that we didn't

1233
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:55,559
Speaker 1: even walk by that, I think there would be you know,

1234
01:12:56,400 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 1: very you know, high contenders um for the book. We

1235
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:06,920
Speaker 1: he took we found just a section of ladder in Pennsylvania,

1236
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:09,719
Speaker 1: a section of a ladder stand where the stand was gone,

1237
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 1: but it had snowed a lot, and so it's just

1238
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 1: kind of like this low It looked like a real metaphor,

1239
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:17,200
Speaker 1: like half of a ladder standing out in the woods.

1240
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 1: And he took a picture of that, says he wasn't

1241
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:22,880
Speaker 1: really feeling it, but you know, it could make the book.

1242
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 1: I don't think it's the cover photo, but it couldn't

1243
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:28,000
Speaker 1: make the book. It could be the back cover. And

1244
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:31,360
Speaker 1: we're gonna caption, We're gonna write captions for all the

1245
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:35,519
Speaker 1: fine art photography. For me, if there's an interesting thing

1246
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:38,360
Speaker 1: that goes on with these old deer stands, because when

1247
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 1: they're only like kind of old, like someone just sat

1248
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:43,639
Speaker 1: at him in the last five years, and you look

1249
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:45,720
Speaker 1: at it and you can tell that it's been retired.

1250
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:48,000
Speaker 1: You look at and you're like, ha, I wish someone

1251
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 1: would take that thing down. It's such an eye store.

1252
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 1: But then like another ten years, fifteen years goes by,

1253
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 1: they become art. Yeah, you walk by and you have

1254
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:01,519
Speaker 1: like a little nostalgia for for he's past. Yeah. Man,

1255
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:03,720
Speaker 1: the last time I was in Pennsylvania, looked at my

1256
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 1: old wood stand. It was just like part of the

1257
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:10,720
Speaker 1: earth that was sad, you know that men used for you.

1258
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:14,679
Speaker 1: There's a there's a genre of old man type hunting

1259
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:19,840
Speaker 1: camp painting where it's like an old deer stand, a

1260
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:22,679
Speaker 1: funked up old deer stand, and there's a big buck

1261
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 1: standing by it. That's like a genre of art and

1262
01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:29,439
Speaker 1: you're supposed to look at and be like, oh man,

1263
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:33,240
Speaker 1: you know that Will Kajer is probably dead now and

1264
01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:37,479
Speaker 1: here's a giant buck by his deer stand. So help

1265
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:40,080
Speaker 1: out there if you can, folks, and we'll keep you

1266
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 1: posting on how it goes, and and Ridge Pounder will

1267
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 1: eventually get in there and reach out, and he might

1268
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 1: have advice about how to make it more fine art

1269
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 1: if it's if it's not, if it's not fine art

1270
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,320
Speaker 1: and it's more like kitch, he'll probably help you steer

1271
01:14:54,320 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 1: it into fine art. So keep your eyes peeled. That's

1272
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:00,479
Speaker 1: one of those projects where you get the title and

1273
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:04,040
Speaker 1: then you have to do it. Oh yeah, well, our

1274
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:07,360
Speaker 1: original title was Chris wanted to call it old funked

1275
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:09,479
Speaker 1: up old deer stands, but then we cut one of

1276
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:12,600
Speaker 1: the old We cut one of the olds out just

1277
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:18,200
Speaker 1: to simplify the title a little bit, all right, Uh, okay, Jim,

1278
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 1: tell everybody about why we What you sent in the

1279
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:23,640
Speaker 1: I thought was so interesting that I wanted you to

1280
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 1: come on and tell us more about it. Yeah. I

1281
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:29,439
Speaker 1: wrote an article for Dear Deer Hunting magazine last year

1282
01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 1: on specifically UM human health and lead bullet fragments and

1283
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:38,880
Speaker 1: and shot pellets in in game meat. And I started

1284
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,640
Speaker 1: getting interested in that because I felt like there were

1285
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:44,200
Speaker 1: a lot of peer reviewed scientific paper, a lot of

1286
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:48,240
Speaker 1: magazine articles, a lot of banter about um the dangers

1287
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:51,679
Speaker 1: of using lead bullets and and lead shot to human

1288
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:54,920
Speaker 1: health specifically. And the more I looked into it, the

1289
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 1: more into the science itself, the more confusing it was.

1290
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:01,479
Speaker 1: It doesn't look like that the science was there to

1291
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:04,000
Speaker 1: support some of the statements that that I had seen.

1292
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 1: And so UM, there's there's a lot of reasons why

1293
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 1: you might want to switch to uh, non lead bullets,

1294
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:13,120
Speaker 1: for sure. I mean there's there there's impacts just individuals.

1295
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:18,600
Speaker 1: We're getting individual raptors and and bird sick um populations.

1296
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:21,640
Speaker 1: There could be some population effects. Certainly, Condor is absolutely

1297
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:24,519
Speaker 1: a population level effect because they're an endangered species, and

1298
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:27,879
Speaker 1: and lead is really a serious conservation issue with their recovery.

1299
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:30,360
Speaker 1: But also you can think about what about hunter image

1300
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 1: when someone's showing this bald eagle that's getting sick from

1301
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:35,640
Speaker 1: um some bullet fragments that got in a in a

1302
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:38,879
Speaker 1: gut pile. And some people talk about the threat of litigation.

1303
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:42,200
Speaker 1: If hunters don't take charge of this issue um of

1304
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 1: switching to non lead bullets, there's gonna be litigation that's

1305
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:47,519
Speaker 1: gonna force it, and and not on their terms. And

1306
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:50,439
Speaker 1: so there's a lot of reasons why we can talk

1307
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:53,719
Speaker 1: about the value of lead bullets and non lead bullets,

1308
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:57,840
Speaker 1: but one of those topics or sub topics is human health.

1309
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 1: And and I think there's this is a case where

1310
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:04,759
Speaker 1: scientists always trying to keep their advocacy out of science

1311
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:07,679
Speaker 1: and just report their science and just do good, solid research.

1312
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:10,720
Speaker 1: But it's difficult in some cases that it seemed to

1313
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:14,920
Speaker 1: me like someone's advocacy for switching having hunters switched from

1314
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:17,519
Speaker 1: lead bullets to non lead bullets was really kind of

1315
01:17:17,640 --> 01:17:20,479
Speaker 1: driving some of their research results. And so it's there's

1316
01:17:20,479 --> 01:17:23,559
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with advocacy, but we should have science driving

1317
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:25,400
Speaker 1: the advocacy. We should have good science, and then we

1318
01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 1: should advocate for what's right. Isn't that refreshing when it

1319
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:32,599
Speaker 1: would be when you when you read when you see

1320
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:36,360
Speaker 1: that the biologist paper, that is like, here are the

1321
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:41,000
Speaker 1: facts and there is no there's no bias that you

1322
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:48,240
Speaker 1: can perceive, there's no advocacy. Um. It is so so refreshing. Um. Yeah,

1323
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:51,120
Speaker 1: And and there's a great good science and you can

1324
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:53,880
Speaker 1: advocate for for what's right. But a lot of times

1325
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:57,960
Speaker 1: people have this endgame and that advocacy paints their science.

1326
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:00,000
Speaker 1: So the right of scientific paper, they'll have the results

1327
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:02,000
Speaker 1: of what the results found, and then the last part

1328
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: of the paper is generally like discussion or management implications,

1329
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:07,320
Speaker 1: and there they have a little more latitude. And I

1330
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:11,800
Speaker 1: was seeing um papers where people would talk about lead

1331
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:15,040
Speaker 1: being dangerous to human health, and it certainly is, We've

1332
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:17,960
Speaker 1: known that for for thousands of years. But they cite

1333
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:23,960
Speaker 1: medical literature that talks about lead in um elevated blood

1334
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:28,080
Speaker 1: lead levels, but from other sources. People aren't talking about

1335
01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 1: actual how dangerous is it to take bullet fragments in

1336
01:18:31,120 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 1: and adjust bullet fragments once in a while, or lead pellets.

1337
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:36,520
Speaker 1: Are talking about paint chips and they're talking about lead gasoline,

1338
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:38,160
Speaker 1: and they're saying, you know, we got to let out

1339
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:40,240
Speaker 1: of paint, we got to let out of gasoline. Um,

1340
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:42,360
Speaker 1: why wouldn't we get to let out of bullets. But

1341
01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 1: what's really important, the distinction is really important is that

1342
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:49,680
Speaker 1: there's different forms of lead. And the metallic lead that

1343
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:53,320
Speaker 1: we use for bullets is different than the lead that

1344
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:55,360
Speaker 1: you find in in paint and the lead that you

1345
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:57,120
Speaker 1: find in gasoline, and they lead you find a lot

1346
01:18:57,160 --> 01:19:00,040
Speaker 1: of other things. The metallic lead actually is is not

1347
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:03,719
Speaker 1: very easily absorbed in your digestive system or through your skin.

1348
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:07,200
Speaker 1: But there's a whole bunch of other uh lead, some

1349
01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 1: soluble organic lead compounds that do absorb through your skin rapidly.

1350
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:15,160
Speaker 1: They do absorb through your lung tissues if it's an

1351
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:18,360
Speaker 1: aerosol or if you ingest that they go into your

1352
01:19:18,360 --> 01:19:21,760
Speaker 1: blood stream pretty quick. But those are different than lead bullets, lead,

1353
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:26,400
Speaker 1: metallic lead, and those organic lead compounds are found in

1354
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:30,640
Speaker 1: in like dryers for varnish. There use sometimes in plastic

1355
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:35,040
Speaker 1: molds to to kind of help set the mold. There

1356
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:38,559
Speaker 1: in um clutch pads and brake pads we we in

1357
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:42,519
Speaker 1: In two thousand nine, there was seven hundred thousand metric

1358
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:45,360
Speaker 1: tons of lead. Mind in the US alone, we use

1359
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:48,320
Speaker 1: a lot of lead for a lot of things. Ammunition

1360
01:19:48,360 --> 01:19:51,000
Speaker 1: batteries are big things, but there's a whole bunch of

1361
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:55,160
Speaker 1: of uh also organic lead compounds which are used in

1362
01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:58,559
Speaker 1: all kinds of different things um and as chemicals. And

1363
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:01,519
Speaker 1: it's those organic compounds are really easily absorbed in the skin,

1364
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:04,200
Speaker 1: and so that's the lead that we need to make

1365
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 1: sure we reduce our exposure to. The metallic lead. It's

1366
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:11,320
Speaker 1: really not that easy to get your blood levels elevated

1367
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:14,640
Speaker 1: just from adjusting metallic lead. And that's why is a

1368
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:19,719
Speaker 1: really big difference. But why, okay, what is the difference

1369
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:22,760
Speaker 1: between a condor who is getting it from metallic lead

1370
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:25,720
Speaker 1: and a human? Like, why does it affect him and

1371
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:28,519
Speaker 1: it doesn't affect us? Yeah, that's a bird and mammal difference.

1372
01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 1: So mammals, it's not really an issue. You don't you

1373
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:32,920
Speaker 1: don't see, you don't hear about lead poisoning so much

1374
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:36,479
Speaker 1: in in wildlife and mammals and our our wild creatures.

1375
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,639
Speaker 1: But birds have a gizzard, and so birds and birds

1376
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:43,439
Speaker 1: also will take little pieces of grit and sand and

1377
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:45,519
Speaker 1: swallow it with their food. With their seeds, and then

1378
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:48,599
Speaker 1: that muscular gizzard grinds and grinds and grinds, and so

1379
01:20:48,720 --> 01:20:51,799
Speaker 1: when they adjust lead pellets or lead fragments from a bullet,

1380
01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:56,800
Speaker 1: that grinding really agitates that and and kind of grind

1381
01:20:56,880 --> 01:21:00,320
Speaker 1: some of the metallic out. So the bird digestis system

1382
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:03,360
Speaker 1: is different than the mammal digestive system. And there's also

1383
01:21:03,720 --> 01:21:06,920
Speaker 1: there's also differences in species too, because the condor is

1384
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 1: really susceptible lead poisoning. The turkey vulture, they almost can't

1385
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:13,920
Speaker 1: kill it with lead poisoning. They've taken captive turkey vultures

1386
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:17,120
Speaker 1: and just fed it lead constantly, and after like six

1387
01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:19,120
Speaker 1: months they killed them and did a necropsy and and

1388
01:21:19,200 --> 01:21:22,320
Speaker 1: don't see any evidence of problems with lead poisoning. So

1389
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:26,639
Speaker 1: there's also species differences within similar species, but the big

1390
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:29,719
Speaker 1: differences the bird digestive system and the mammal digestive system

1391
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:32,439
Speaker 1: is way different. Humans will pass the meal through their

1392
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:35,320
Speaker 1: whole digestive system in twenty four to seventy two hours,

1393
01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 1: and it only spends four or five hours in the stomach,

1394
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:40,719
Speaker 1: in the acidic stomach. So when you think about ingesting

1395
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:43,160
Speaker 1: a little piece of metallic lead, which is not very

1396
01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:46,559
Speaker 1: soluble and and doesn't go into the bud stream very easily.

1397
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:49,280
Speaker 1: And it's sitting for five hours in the stomach and

1398
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:51,840
Speaker 1: it's out of the digestive system in a day or two.

1399
01:21:52,439 --> 01:21:54,479
Speaker 1: That's not a lot of time for that that metal

1400
01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:58,200
Speaker 1: to actually be absorbed to the tissues. Can you walk

1401
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:02,400
Speaker 1: can you walk people through? Um? You know, I know

1402
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:04,680
Speaker 1: you weren't involved as from a policy standpoint, but but

1403
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:08,599
Speaker 1: can you walk people through how it came to be

1404
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:15,400
Speaker 1: that waterfowl hunting made the switch? Like I believe in

1405
01:22:15,439 --> 01:22:19,160
Speaker 1: the in the late seventies early eighties, Like, like, did

1406
01:22:19,200 --> 01:22:22,840
Speaker 1: they were they addressing a real problem in your view?

1407
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:25,559
Speaker 1: When when they banned lead from waterfowl? And how are

1408
01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:28,960
Speaker 1: the ducks getting hurt by it? Yeah, lead poison showed

1409
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:31,559
Speaker 1: up in waterfowl and I wasn't involved in that at all,

1410
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:34,400
Speaker 1: But but from what I've read and talking to other people,

1411
01:22:34,439 --> 01:22:36,280
Speaker 1: there's some people I know that were involved in all

1412
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:39,320
Speaker 1: of that. Um, the ducks were showing up with lead poisoning,

1413
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 1: and of course it takes a couple of weeks to

1414
01:22:41,160 --> 01:22:43,640
Speaker 1: kill bird, and so it's a long um, it's a

1415
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:46,600
Speaker 1: long process where they suffer, but it's my understanding that

1416
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:50,320
Speaker 1: it was litigation um anchored to the ball Legal Act

1417
01:22:50,400 --> 01:22:53,160
Speaker 1: and in protection of ball legals that were on the

1418
01:22:53,240 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 1: endangered species list at the time, And there was litigation

1419
01:22:56,320 --> 01:22:58,840
Speaker 1: because these ball legals were showing up after eating ducks,

1420
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 1: showing up with lead poison. So it wasn't a duck

1421
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:05,560
Speaker 1: population issue. There's a small percentage of the duck population

1422
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:08,320
Speaker 1: that was affected. It was I think this nexus with

1423
01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:10,920
Speaker 1: the endangered species acting bald eagles. That's why I understand

1424
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:13,639
Speaker 1: it from those people that were involved in that. Yeah,

1425
01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:17,439
Speaker 1: you know, I have a couple of times in my life. Um,

1426
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:22,320
Speaker 1: it was in Wyoming when I happened most recently, actually

1427
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 1: did find steel shot in a duck s gizzard where

1428
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 1: that duck and picking up grit, had managed to pick

1429
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 1: up and consume uh steel shot, which is totally safe

1430
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:39,400
Speaker 1: for the bird. But in the old days that would

1431
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:43,240
Speaker 1: have been you know lead can can you walk? Can

1432
01:23:43,280 --> 01:23:45,439
Speaker 1: you walk people through the difference when you're saying like

1433
01:23:46,360 --> 01:23:50,120
Speaker 1: that it leads to bird mortality and then population level

1434
01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:55,720
Speaker 1: like like talk about that distinction, right, And that's the

1435
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:59,120
Speaker 1: that's the big thing people talk about, um, the effects

1436
01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 1: of lead on wild life and they tend to just

1437
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:04,400
Speaker 1: put it all in this big cauldron and kind of

1438
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:07,400
Speaker 1: talk about it. But it's a really complex issue. You

1439
01:24:07,439 --> 01:24:11,759
Speaker 1: need to talk separately about um about individual birds dying.

1440
01:24:11,920 --> 01:24:14,519
Speaker 1: And we know that that eagles and hawks and and

1441
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:17,960
Speaker 1: um and condors will get lead bullet fragments and they

1442
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:20,400
Speaker 1: will they will die from lead poison. And so certainly

1443
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:25,280
Speaker 1: we know the effects on individuals. But then people have said, well,

1444
01:24:25,479 --> 01:24:29,439
Speaker 1: is this really a population level effect? And I myself

1445
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:32,160
Speaker 1: used to say, well, it's not a population level effect.

1446
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:35,080
Speaker 1: So we're talking about individuals, but we don't really know

1447
01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:37,559
Speaker 1: if it was a population if we were having population

1448
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 1: level effect on things like golden eagles. We don't do

1449
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:42,439
Speaker 1: annual surveys. We don't We don't really have a lot

1450
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:45,519
Speaker 1: of good data to know how lead might be affecting

1451
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:47,920
Speaker 1: golden eagles. I suspect there might be some valley where

1452
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:50,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people rabbit hunt or a lot of

1453
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:52,840
Speaker 1: people coil hunt, and golden eagles might be picking up

1454
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:54,519
Speaker 1: some lead, and it might be a local issue in

1455
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:57,559
Speaker 1: some places. But I've stopped saying it's not a population

1456
01:24:57,640 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 1: level effect simply because I don't think we have enough

1457
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:02,960
Speaker 1: to make a blanket statement like that, But I will

1458
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:07,000
Speaker 1: frequently say, is this, um Is this such an issue

1459
01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:11,000
Speaker 1: with raptors and wild birds that every hunter needs a

1460
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:14,360
Speaker 1: switch in short order to non lead bullets? Is this?

1461
01:25:14,479 --> 01:25:18,080
Speaker 1: Is this a conservation issue that's serious enough that requires

1462
01:25:18,080 --> 01:25:22,120
Speaker 1: our intervention to to right some wrong? And I think

1463
01:25:22,120 --> 01:25:24,040
Speaker 1: that's I think that's a good question, and a lot

1464
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:27,400
Speaker 1: of people aren't talking specifically about that. But I like

1465
01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:29,840
Speaker 1: to separate the effects of the individual, which no, we

1466
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:32,240
Speaker 1: know absolutely they die if they get too much lead,

1467
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:36,599
Speaker 1: the effects of population. Is this really a conservation level

1468
01:25:36,640 --> 01:25:39,680
Speaker 1: issue that people in in our profession need to be

1469
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:42,599
Speaker 1: fixing um? Or is it more of a local thing

1470
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:44,840
Speaker 1: that happens at a low level and it's just kind

1471
01:25:44,840 --> 01:25:47,559
Speaker 1: of absorbed into the natural mortality. I mean, I always

1472
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:49,519
Speaker 1: get hit by cars all the time, howls once in

1473
01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:51,840
Speaker 1: a while, pick up some lead and die. So this

1474
01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:54,120
Speaker 1: is this of great importance that we need to actually

1475
01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:57,639
Speaker 1: act and and get people to switch. And and I'm

1476
01:25:57,720 --> 01:26:02,120
Speaker 1: not an advocate of of not switching, and I'm not

1477
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:05,280
Speaker 1: an advocate of switching within the next couple of years.

1478
01:26:05,720 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 1: I I have my family. We've switched about ten years ago.

1479
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:12,559
Speaker 1: And I shoot nothing but all all copper, all copper

1480
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:15,280
Speaker 1: rifle bullets with all of our rifle hunting. And I

1481
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:18,760
Speaker 1: do that because I like the clean wound channel. If

1482
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:20,559
Speaker 1: you get off and you hit into a muscle group

1483
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:22,640
Speaker 1: you've got with a copper bullet, you've got a hole

1484
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:26,240
Speaker 1: through the muscle group. Um. And and I like the accuracy,

1485
01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:29,599
Speaker 1: and I like the how clean it shoots, and and

1486
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:31,920
Speaker 1: it's really kind of a meat loss issue with me

1487
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:34,920
Speaker 1: using copper bullets. But everybody really has to make their

1488
01:26:35,040 --> 01:26:37,640
Speaker 1: up their own mind if they're if they're concerned that

1489
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:41,559
Speaker 1: their bullet might might kill a raptor on their property

1490
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:43,720
Speaker 1: or somewhere out there, they may choose a switch that

1491
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:46,640
Speaker 1: may be enough for them. UM. But I think the

1492
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:50,880
Speaker 1: conversation has a center around impacts the individuals, impact to

1493
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:54,639
Speaker 1: populations to the level that uh, professional need to take

1494
01:26:54,680 --> 01:26:57,960
Speaker 1: action and fix something that that's broken. Um. When you

1495
01:26:58,040 --> 01:27:01,080
Speaker 1: talk about human health separately, but we also need to

1496
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:04,120
Speaker 1: talk about the impact the hunter image. That's a real

1497
01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:08,080
Speaker 1: issue that we should talk about. And then some people

1498
01:27:08,080 --> 01:27:10,559
Speaker 1: claim that litigations coming down the road if we don't

1499
01:27:10,600 --> 01:27:15,160
Speaker 1: do something. So it's such a it's such a multifaceted

1500
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:17,600
Speaker 1: topic that when you throw it all in together, it

1501
01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:21,559
Speaker 1: gets it gets really confusing. Yeah, it's funny because it's

1502
01:27:21,560 --> 01:27:25,360
Speaker 1: it's sorry calibhood. Well, I would like to see just

1503
01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:30,040
Speaker 1: more data. You know. The big game is an interesting

1504
01:27:30,080 --> 01:27:32,320
Speaker 1: one and and this is a topic that it's it's

1505
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:37,080
Speaker 1: a really good topic. It's so especially when you want

1506
01:27:37,080 --> 01:27:40,400
Speaker 1: to have that individual versus population effect and then you

1507
01:27:40,400 --> 01:27:43,280
Speaker 1: can kind of bring it together at the California condor

1508
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:47,240
Speaker 1: where it's like, well enough, individual loss on such a

1509
01:27:47,240 --> 01:27:51,360
Speaker 1: small population is a population level effect and you could

1510
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:56,160
Speaker 1: get to this point where and individual affects the population,

1511
01:27:56,439 --> 01:28:01,360
Speaker 1: you know. So it's a it's a great topic. My

1512
01:28:01,360 --> 01:28:06,920
Speaker 1: myself like having not like seriously pursued upland birds for

1513
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:11,240
Speaker 1: a long time. This year, I mean I saw more

1514
01:28:11,280 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 1: wounded animals than I have in the last fifteen years

1515
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:16,760
Speaker 1: this year, and they were all upland birds, you know,

1516
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:20,280
Speaker 1: like wild roosters getting shot and we just could not

1517
01:28:20,680 --> 01:28:27,320
Speaker 1: find the things. UM hunting South Dakota. We hunted, uh,

1518
01:28:27,439 --> 01:28:29,800
Speaker 1: you know, probably a good three and a half four

1519
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:33,599
Speaker 1: hour walk on you know, big chunk of public access

1520
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:38,439
Speaker 1: ground and I found three dead roosters out there, you know,

1521
01:28:38,439 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 1: on different levels of decomposition. UM but just you know,

1522
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:46,160
Speaker 1: the range of hungarian partridge with one little leg leg

1523
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:51,000
Speaker 1: hanging as they fly a mile off into the distance, UM,

1524
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:54,320
Speaker 1: and just not being able to recover those animals. That

1525
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:58,880
Speaker 1: is where the you know. And and just like early

1526
01:28:58,920 --> 01:29:05,000
Speaker 1: in Montana, you can hit like those raptor migrations through October,

1527
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:10,960
Speaker 1: and there are so many raptors around And for me,

1528
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:14,680
Speaker 1: I just I knew there were other predators out there

1529
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:18,200
Speaker 1: with their eyes on that crippled bird at some point,

1530
01:29:18,320 --> 01:29:20,800
Speaker 1: you know. And and sure, and the mammals you don't

1531
01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:22,680
Speaker 1: need to worry about, but those raptors, especially when you

1532
01:29:22,720 --> 01:29:24,800
Speaker 1: get a migration coming through, if there's a lot of

1533
01:29:24,800 --> 01:29:27,080
Speaker 1: wounded birds in an area, they're certainly picking those up

1534
01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:29,080
Speaker 1: and they're they're going to get sick from that. It's

1535
01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:32,840
Speaker 1: all about the nuance. It's all about, well, really, how

1536
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 1: many of those uh animals are out and available for

1537
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:38,760
Speaker 1: raptors to see them and and actually get consumed, how

1538
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:40,920
Speaker 1: many raptors are in the area, what percent of the

1539
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:44,720
Speaker 1: raptor population is being affected. They've they've just in the

1540
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:48,679
Speaker 1: course of doing different research projects on on hawks and eagles,

1541
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:52,080
Speaker 1: they've drawn blood samples every time they capture an eagle

1542
01:29:52,479 --> 01:29:54,360
Speaker 1: and then analyze those for blood to see if they're

1543
01:29:54,360 --> 01:29:56,799
Speaker 1: picking it up. And they've documented that during the hunting season,

1544
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:00,200
Speaker 1: that that raptor blood levels, that the lead level in

1545
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:02,000
Speaker 1: the blood go up during the hunting season and then

1546
01:30:02,040 --> 01:30:05,400
Speaker 1: they drop off after the hunting season. They've shown hunted

1547
01:30:05,439 --> 01:30:09,400
Speaker 1: areas and non hunted areas and showing differences in lead exposure,

1548
01:30:09,680 --> 01:30:12,000
Speaker 1: and so there's no doubt that raptors are getting birded

1549
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:15,480
Speaker 1: just exactly that way and their blood lead levels are elevated.

1550
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:19,160
Speaker 1: The conversation I think should center around um it is

1551
01:30:19,160 --> 01:30:23,640
Speaker 1: that causing morbidity or mortality. Is that impacting them in

1552
01:30:23,720 --> 01:30:26,599
Speaker 1: such a way that it's um It's such a serious

1553
01:30:26,640 --> 01:30:29,519
Speaker 1: issue that that something, you know, dramatic needs to be

1554
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:33,120
Speaker 1: done when we talk about advocating all hunters switching to

1555
01:30:33,320 --> 01:30:36,880
Speaker 1: non let animal, For me, it matters because I want

1556
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:41,360
Speaker 1: to know what I'm killing um and that the population

1557
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:44,920
Speaker 1: level argument kind of goes out the window because I

1558
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:47,760
Speaker 1: just want to know what I killed. And so then

1559
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:51,440
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, like, okay, one lead bullet through an ELK carcass.

1560
01:30:51,960 --> 01:30:53,280
Speaker 1: Let's say you hit it a little bit back and

1561
01:30:53,320 --> 01:30:55,400
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of lead fragments in in the paunch

1562
01:30:55,479 --> 01:30:58,320
Speaker 1: and that's what's left out there. What's the effect of that? Like,

1563
01:30:58,360 --> 01:31:01,799
Speaker 1: how much are you killing with that versus a season

1564
01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:05,360
Speaker 1: of upland bird hunting and you have, you know, these

1565
01:31:05,840 --> 01:31:10,040
Speaker 1: smaller meals out there that are probably more likely to

1566
01:31:10,080 --> 01:31:14,400
Speaker 1: contain lead than a well placed shot in my opinion

1567
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 1: on on a big game animal. Um. And that stuff

1568
01:31:19,040 --> 01:31:21,679
Speaker 1: just was constantly going through my head head this season.

1569
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 1: But if you walk four strand barbed wire fence long enough,

1570
01:31:27,080 --> 01:31:30,920
Speaker 1: you're gonna see raptor deaths on that four strand barbedwire fence,

1571
01:31:30,920 --> 01:31:36,439
Speaker 1: wheel lines, power lines. Um. These birds are are are

1572
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:38,920
Speaker 1: definitely dying from a lot of man made stuff out there,

1573
01:31:38,960 --> 01:31:43,840
Speaker 1: and we still have them around. Yeah. This this is

1574
01:31:43,880 --> 01:31:46,200
Speaker 1: where it gets. This is where the subject gets like

1575
01:31:46,360 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 1: hard for me to sort out. Is that on one hand,

1576
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:58,040
Speaker 1: I see places where people within the industry get really

1577
01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:01,320
Speaker 1: uneasy when people start having a conversation that we're having

1578
01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:05,680
Speaker 1: right now, because they would they would prefer that no

1579
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:12,479
Speaker 1: one talked about it because uh, you know, um, it's

1580
01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:15,120
Speaker 1: sort of like a taboo subject because you're pointing out

1581
01:32:15,240 --> 01:32:17,800
Speaker 1: some kind of problem with how everybody does things better.

1582
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:20,800
Speaker 1: Just shut up about it. We're gonna get regulations that

1583
01:32:20,840 --> 01:32:23,840
Speaker 1: we don't want. Like you hear that from people. On

1584
01:32:23,880 --> 01:32:26,680
Speaker 1: the other hand, UM and I and I, and that

1585
01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:29,280
Speaker 1: gets my hackles up a little bit, like this sort

1586
01:32:29,280 --> 01:32:34,880
Speaker 1: of idea that you need to censor um, real conversations

1587
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:38,479
Speaker 1: about trying to find out information and put a plan

1588
01:32:38,560 --> 01:32:40,880
Speaker 1: together and have an open discussion about something like I

1589
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:43,360
Speaker 1: think that's important to do that. On the other hand,

1590
01:32:44,160 --> 01:32:49,439
Speaker 1: lead works really well. Let us inexpensive lead is widely available. Uh,

1591
01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:53,559
Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of non lead ammunition is

1592
01:32:53,560 --> 01:32:57,520
Speaker 1: is like limited in abundance. It can be very expensive.

1593
01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:02,439
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't want to see that level like

1594
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:06,840
Speaker 1: that kind of onerous. Um. I don't want to see

1595
01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:11,160
Speaker 1: that kind of onerous regulations put in on people and

1596
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:14,120
Speaker 1: have everybody need to spend more money, have ammunition be

1597
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:17,479
Speaker 1: more limited. But I also realized that we're gonna have

1598
01:33:17,560 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 1: to probably talk about this stuff and figure out things

1599
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:23,360
Speaker 1: we can do in order to head off getting forced

1600
01:33:23,479 --> 01:33:26,800
Speaker 1: into a place where you're gonna wind up in just

1601
01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:30,200
Speaker 1: that situation like you did in certain areas well. I

1602
01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:32,439
Speaker 1: think now pretty soon all of California where's just like

1603
01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:37,439
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to use lad Man, California, July from

1604
01:33:37,520 --> 01:33:40,080
Speaker 1: July twenty nine, and all of California is not let

1605
01:33:40,520 --> 01:33:43,559
Speaker 1: So we're we're gonna have to, like as a community,

1606
01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:47,280
Speaker 1: start talking about it and start thinking it and hopefully

1607
01:33:47,400 --> 01:33:50,080
Speaker 1: land somewhere where we're in the driver's seat and how

1608
01:33:50,080 --> 01:33:56,360
Speaker 1: we're gonna proceed less like you're saying, Um, we lose

1609
01:33:56,400 --> 01:34:00,880
Speaker 1: our seat at the table and and and land in

1610
01:34:00,880 --> 01:34:02,400
Speaker 1: a place where we could have done a lot better

1611
01:34:02,439 --> 01:34:05,240
Speaker 1: had we been a little more proactive about it. Yeah,

1612
01:34:05,560 --> 01:34:07,400
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know. I don't know the answer, man.

1613
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:11,519
Speaker 1: My opinion about all these complex about this whole complex topic,

1614
01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:13,519
Speaker 1: my opinions are kind of all over the map. I'm

1615
01:34:13,640 --> 01:34:16,320
Speaker 1: because I see all of like you're just saying, I

1616
01:34:16,320 --> 01:34:19,240
Speaker 1: i'd see all of the pros and the cons and

1617
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:21,800
Speaker 1: and I'm not on one side or the other when

1618
01:34:21,800 --> 01:34:23,920
Speaker 1: it comes specifically to human health. That I wrote the

1619
01:34:24,000 --> 01:34:27,400
Speaker 1: article about human health. Um, I think there's people using

1620
01:34:27,479 --> 01:34:30,040
Speaker 1: human health as a hammer because that there and I've

1621
01:34:30,040 --> 01:34:33,080
Speaker 1: heard people tell me that's very effective. One person told

1622
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:35,320
Speaker 1: me at the wild of Society and Albuquerque had a

1623
01:34:35,960 --> 01:34:39,240
Speaker 1: m a symposium on wildlife and and lead and one

1624
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:41,559
Speaker 1: guy at the break tell me. Sometimes, he says, what's

1625
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:43,559
Speaker 1: most effective is we show up to the check stations,

1626
01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:46,120
Speaker 1: the deer check stations, especially if there's a wife or

1627
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:48,160
Speaker 1: a girlfriend there, we start talking to her about how

1628
01:34:48,360 --> 01:34:50,959
Speaker 1: do you know that your your husband, your boyfriend's poisoning

1629
01:34:51,040 --> 01:34:54,000
Speaker 1: you with lead, you know, meat, and they and they

1630
01:34:54,000 --> 01:34:56,800
Speaker 1: were laughing, saying that that is really the most effective way,

1631
01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:59,200
Speaker 1: because I guarantee that guy is not using lead next year.

1632
01:34:59,240 --> 01:35:03,120
Speaker 1: And so you see the human health um as a

1633
01:35:03,120 --> 01:35:07,120
Speaker 1: as an exaggeration for the true risk that it provides

1634
01:35:07,160 --> 01:35:09,479
Speaker 1: the humans. That's what I really have a problem with,

1635
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:13,080
Speaker 1: this other stuff about the individual versus population and pending

1636
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:17,120
Speaker 1: litigation and the image of hunters. I just I see

1637
01:35:17,160 --> 01:35:19,240
Speaker 1: all of that stuff, and I haven't worked through it

1638
01:35:19,280 --> 01:35:22,599
Speaker 1: all myself and where I stand and all that. Oh yeah, Jim,

1639
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:24,160
Speaker 1: you know, I know exactly what we're talking about, and I

1640
01:35:24,120 --> 01:35:26,080
Speaker 1: I know we drifted from it a little bit. But sure, man,

1641
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:28,839
Speaker 1: I've seen that. I've seen people like I've seen raptor

1642
01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:33,880
Speaker 1: people um switch and and want to talk about human

1643
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:37,040
Speaker 1: health because they're driving at something with raptors. I think

1644
01:35:37,080 --> 01:35:39,000
Speaker 1: one of the most like weirdest versions I've seen of

1645
01:35:39,080 --> 01:35:41,160
Speaker 1: this is there's this group that's always been opposed to

1646
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:45,200
Speaker 1: wildlife markets. They're having a heyday with COVID where they're

1647
01:35:45,200 --> 01:35:47,879
Speaker 1: acting like we always knew. They used to oppose wildlife

1648
01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:51,160
Speaker 1: markets because they're trading an endangered species. Now they've switched

1649
01:35:51,160 --> 01:35:55,639
Speaker 1: their hotelality. Wildlife markets are bad because of the disease issue,

1650
01:35:55,960 --> 01:35:59,040
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, you're using the disease issue to

1651
01:35:59,160 --> 01:36:02,800
Speaker 1: get where you want it to land before. You're using

1652
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:05,880
Speaker 1: this as a new tool to to to win your

1653
01:36:05,880 --> 01:36:08,599
Speaker 1: old war. I don't like to see that either, man,

1654
01:36:08,720 --> 01:36:10,320
Speaker 1: Like I don't like when I don't like when people

1655
01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:12,920
Speaker 1: do that. It's like, be intellectually honest, you know. And

1656
01:36:13,200 --> 01:36:14,840
Speaker 1: I've looked at it, to man, and I've and I've

1657
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:17,519
Speaker 1: always been a little suspicious of the human health thing.

1658
01:36:17,800 --> 01:36:19,840
Speaker 1: I first got interested in it when I had high

1659
01:36:19,880 --> 01:36:22,120
Speaker 1: lead levels in my garden and that led me to

1660
01:36:22,200 --> 01:36:25,960
Speaker 1: reading about you know, how to lead get there? How

1661
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:28,160
Speaker 1: does it? How does it move? What? How does what

1662
01:36:28,200 --> 01:36:31,680
Speaker 1: impacts does it have on people? And I've often, uh

1663
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:34,920
Speaker 1: looked at that and thought about that these like chunks

1664
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:37,840
Speaker 1: of bullet lead passing through your system, it's just not

1665
01:36:37,960 --> 01:36:40,439
Speaker 1: the same thing. Is some of these ways in which

1666
01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:44,639
Speaker 1: people are getting led from inhalation and other issues. Yeah,

1667
01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:46,639
Speaker 1: and that's what the title of my article was, Great

1668
01:36:46,680 --> 01:36:49,280
Speaker 1: toxin or red herring. And that's what a red herring

1669
01:36:49,439 --> 01:36:53,240
Speaker 1: is is when you're you're you're arguing one thing, but

1670
01:36:53,320 --> 01:36:55,120
Speaker 1: that's not really what you're interested in. You may be

1671
01:36:55,200 --> 01:36:57,599
Speaker 1: arguing about human health, but you're really interested in rapt

1672
01:36:57,680 --> 01:36:59,800
Speaker 1: or mortality. I don't know if you've ever talked about

1673
01:37:00,520 --> 01:37:03,559
Speaker 1: talk to your wife about something and you're disagreeing, and

1674
01:37:04,120 --> 01:37:06,920
Speaker 1: you suddenly realize that what you're arguing about isn't really

1675
01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:10,280
Speaker 1: what she's was with the problem is it's really something else,

1676
01:37:10,320 --> 01:37:12,880
Speaker 1: and you end up arguing about something else. And so

1677
01:37:13,040 --> 01:37:15,360
Speaker 1: I think people find what's the what's going to be

1678
01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:18,519
Speaker 1: the most effective message, and they they gravitate to that.

1679
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:21,760
Speaker 1: And and my message is just let's be honest, let's

1680
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:24,320
Speaker 1: talk about all these different facets of this topic. And

1681
01:37:24,360 --> 01:37:27,040
Speaker 1: when we talk about human health, let's talk about lead

1682
01:37:27,080 --> 01:37:31,360
Speaker 1: fragments and and um and shot and how that really

1683
01:37:31,400 --> 01:37:34,240
Speaker 1: can translate to problems with human health because that connection,

1684
01:37:35,000 --> 01:37:37,559
Speaker 1: the connection is not very strong. There's there are some

1685
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:40,519
Speaker 1: cases where people there's a guy in in that living

1686
01:37:40,560 --> 01:37:42,240
Speaker 1: in the bush in New Zealand, I think. And he

1687
01:37:42,320 --> 01:37:44,880
Speaker 1: was eating meat bush meat that he was shooting with

1688
01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:46,760
Speaker 1: lead bullets, and he was eating every day, so he

1689
01:37:46,840 --> 01:37:49,760
Speaker 1: basically had lead in his digestive system every day of

1690
01:37:49,800 --> 01:37:51,439
Speaker 1: the year. And they tested his blood and it was

1691
01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:55,200
Speaker 1: it was skyrocketed with lead levels. And then there was

1692
01:37:55,439 --> 01:37:58,200
Speaker 1: a case of the Inuit community up in Greenland that

1693
01:37:58,280 --> 01:38:01,120
Speaker 1: was that was eating a lot of sea ducks that

1694
01:38:01,160 --> 01:38:04,679
Speaker 1: were shot with with lead pellets. And so they asked

1695
01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:07,479
Speaker 1: how often do you eat sea ducks because they had

1696
01:38:07,479 --> 01:38:09,560
Speaker 1: a lot of lead pellets in them, And those that

1697
01:38:09,680 --> 01:38:12,639
Speaker 1: eight sea ducks once a week or less were below

1698
01:38:12,680 --> 01:38:16,960
Speaker 1: the center for these control um limit for for a

1699
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:20,559
Speaker 1: danger zone. And those that as they approached one sea

1700
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:24,800
Speaker 1: duck approached daily consumption of sea ducks, they're lead levels.

1701
01:38:24,800 --> 01:38:28,720
Speaker 1: We're tend to seventeen above that CDC level of ten

1702
01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:33,080
Speaker 1: ten to seventeen um. So, and so there are cases

1703
01:38:33,120 --> 01:38:37,200
Speaker 1: where people basically have are eating lead every day or

1704
01:38:37,280 --> 01:38:40,160
Speaker 1: pretty close to every day and it's always in their system.

1705
01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:43,480
Speaker 1: You can definitely have your blood lead levels up to

1706
01:38:43,640 --> 01:38:48,280
Speaker 1: unhealthy levels for sure. The indiscriminate killing argument, right is

1707
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:51,559
Speaker 1: the one that kills me Like I'm like there's just nothing.

1708
01:38:52,439 --> 01:38:55,960
Speaker 1: I guess you could argue that you just randomly decided that, yeah,

1709
01:38:55,960 --> 01:38:58,559
Speaker 1: I'm gonna shoot that buck, but that's not the way

1710
01:38:58,600 --> 01:39:01,280
Speaker 1: I see it. For or, I do a lot of

1711
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:05,519
Speaker 1: looking looking over animals before I pull the trigger. And uh,

1712
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:09,120
Speaker 1: I'm just like a long way past uh sitting out

1713
01:39:09,160 --> 01:39:11,599
Speaker 1: and going through a brick of two m oh shooting

1714
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:14,840
Speaker 1: ground squirrels just don't do that anymore, having a long

1715
01:39:14,920 --> 01:39:19,000
Speaker 1: long time, And so that's why I'm always like, oh shit,

1716
01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:23,360
Speaker 1: that bird that's sailing off with one leg hanging down?

1717
01:39:24,960 --> 01:39:29,320
Speaker 1: Is that a dead raptor? Like did I just kill

1718
01:39:29,439 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 1: something that I didn't intend to kill? Like I'm okay

1719
01:39:32,439 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 1: with the little bit of wound loss over the course

1720
01:39:35,080 --> 01:39:39,519
Speaker 1: of a season, Like I've mentally set myself up for that, uh,

1721
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:44,000
Speaker 1: for these birds, but I'm not quite mentally set up

1722
01:39:44,800 --> 01:39:48,799
Speaker 1: to say, yep, that is a prairie falcon or something

1723
01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:51,599
Speaker 1: else that is just badass that's out there. So if

1724
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:56,719
Speaker 1: you started shooting your upland birds with steel, I finally

1725
01:39:56,720 --> 01:39:58,599
Speaker 1: got ahold of some bismuth. It took me a long

1726
01:39:58,640 --> 01:40:00,840
Speaker 1: time to get get ahold of bismus. But I mean,

1727
01:40:00,880 --> 01:40:03,200
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what you're talking about, Steve. That bismuth

1728
01:40:04,000 --> 01:40:07,360
Speaker 1: is expansive. Stuff makes you think about pulling the trigger.

1729
01:40:09,320 --> 01:40:11,960
Speaker 1: My god, has that stuff work though? Man, it doesn't work.

1730
01:40:12,040 --> 01:40:15,160
Speaker 1: I just bought some. I bought some Federal Premium TSS

1731
01:40:15,280 --> 01:40:18,880
Speaker 1: for turkey hunting because it's so amazingly effective, and I

1732
01:40:19,080 --> 01:40:23,439
Speaker 1: just I just spent on five shot gun hills. That's

1733
01:40:23,479 --> 01:40:26,400
Speaker 1: that tungsten t SS. You gotta line up, you gotta

1734
01:40:26,439 --> 01:40:30,599
Speaker 1: line up their heads, make sure you're getting getting miss

1735
01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:32,719
Speaker 1: turkey the first time. And so it costs me thirty

1736
01:40:32,720 --> 01:40:34,400
Speaker 1: eight dollars for him to shoot a turkey when he

1737
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:37,880
Speaker 1: had a second thing. You know, it's nice to you'll

1738
01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:39,840
Speaker 1: see Jim with those ts s. I don't know if

1739
01:40:39,840 --> 01:40:43,679
Speaker 1: you already hunted it with them, uh last season, but

1740
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:48,519
Speaker 1: you know, if they're so dense and so heavy that

1741
01:40:48,800 --> 01:40:50,880
Speaker 1: even if you your patterns a little bit low and

1742
01:40:50,920 --> 01:40:53,479
Speaker 1: you hit that breast, they tend to just whistle through

1743
01:40:53,960 --> 01:40:56,800
Speaker 1: that whole bird and you don't end up having, you know,

1744
01:40:56,880 --> 01:41:01,000
Speaker 1: shot stuck in the breast. Yeah up. I shot my

1745
01:41:01,040 --> 01:41:04,320
Speaker 1: Gould's last year with TSS about forty yards and the

1746
01:41:04,360 --> 01:41:06,920
Speaker 1: pattern was pretty dense. I actually messed up the tail

1747
01:41:06,960 --> 01:41:09,200
Speaker 1: fan because there's just so much. I'm using sevens and

1748
01:41:09,280 --> 01:41:12,080
Speaker 1: nine together and kind of messed up the tail fan.

1749
01:41:12,200 --> 01:41:14,519
Speaker 1: But my son killed a Miriam last year at at

1750
01:41:14,600 --> 01:41:18,599
Speaker 1: sixty yards laser range finders sixty yards with a twelve

1751
01:41:18,600 --> 01:41:22,360
Speaker 1: games with TSS. It's amazing. Oh man, No, I'm getting

1752
01:41:22,360 --> 01:41:25,280
Speaker 1: all worked up for turkey hunting. I've been trying to

1753
01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:29,600
Speaker 1: not think about turkey season alright, Jim dude, thanks a

1754
01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 1: lot for coming on. Sorry you couldn't be like normal

1755
01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:34,000
Speaker 1: where you come up in the studio. But we gotta

1756
01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:39,479
Speaker 1: get through this, Uh, get through this pandemic. It's killing me. Yeah,

1757
01:41:39,560 --> 01:41:44,360
Speaker 1: I mean not literally killing me, it's literally killing some people. Um.

1758
01:41:44,439 --> 01:41:48,280
Speaker 1: You gotta get those vaccines rolling out. Get everybody back together, um,

1759
01:41:48,360 --> 01:41:52,439
Speaker 1: Mr Jim, thank you, appreciate you coming on. Cal Yanni,

1760
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 1: Brody Crane, Phil, thanks a lot, Thank you, easy, good luck,

1761
01:41:58,240 --> 01:42:00,640
Speaker 1: stay well, we'll see each other later. Take are like