1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Before we get started, we have a live 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: show to announce. We will be at the National Gallery 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: of our Washington for their n g A Nights programming. 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: We'll be doing a live show there on September twelve. 5 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: The program itself is running from six pm to nine pm. 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: We're actually going to do our show twice that night. 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: You do have to register for it, but the good 8 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: news is registration is completely free. It's just a matter 9 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: of signing up. Yep. You can come to our website, 10 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: which is missed in History dot com and you can 11 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: click on the page where it says live shows, or 12 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: you can go to miss in history dot com slash shows. 13 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: You will find a link for where you can register 14 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: for tickets ahead of time. Again, this is a whole 15 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: night of programming and we plan to do the same 16 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: show two times so that more folks have the chance 17 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: to see it. So we hope to see you in Washington, 18 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: d C. On September twelve. Welcome to Stuff You Missed 19 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: in History Class, a production of I Heart Radios How 20 00:00:54,560 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly 21 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Uh So, today what 22 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: you're talking about a court case that was fairly famous 23 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: in the eighteen sixties, less known today. It is the 24 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: Great English Convent case. The greatness that is referred to 25 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: is definitely not in the sense of good. It's not 26 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: really a very delightful case to hear about, but it 27 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,199 Speaker 1: speaks to the fervor of public interests surrounding it. Um 28 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: It became really a sensational legal and cultural moment for 29 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: Victorian England, and it was scandalous because it involved conflict 30 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: within a convent, and the idea of hearing what went 31 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: on behind the walls of such a place tucked away 32 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: from the outside world was completely tantalizing to both the 33 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: press and the public. And also that was because it 34 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: came at a time when it fed an already growing 35 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: anti Catholic movement in England. Additionally, it played on the 36 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: shock of women being incredibly cruel to one another, and 37 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: that was something that was even used by the plaintiff's 38 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: legal team when speaking to the jury when this case 39 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: went to trial. So there was an inherently salacious element 40 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: to the proceedings as people eagerly waited for the juici 41 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: or details of the case to emerge. One thing that 42 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: will mention going in is that if you look up 43 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 1: any documents on this, the names involved get spelled all 44 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: manner of different ways. Um, the plaintiff is in most 45 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: of the legal documents just referred to as Miss Saren, 46 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: but she her name was either Susan or Suzanne depending 47 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,119 Speaker 1: on what you look at. Uh. Similarly, the primary defendant, 48 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: Mrs Starr is also spelled star with two R, star 49 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: with one R. There's also Mrs Kennedy involved, sometimes spelled 50 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: with one end, sometimes with two And I want to 51 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: be clear that in the same legal document these names 52 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: will change spellings, so there's a lot of inconsistency about that. 53 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: We're kind of going with the most commonly used ones. 54 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: And we'll talk also about using their non religious names 55 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: versus their names as nuns a little bit. We're going 56 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: with the non religious names, just for clarity. Heads up. Also, Uh, 57 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: there's a lot of discussion and accusations of abuse and 58 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: cruelty in the mix here. Those are sensitive things for you. Um, 59 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: this might not be the episode for you. Yeah, as 60 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: I was reading it, I was reminded of like mean 61 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: girls but worse. Yeah, it's like a lot of fairly 62 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: petty abuses, but they really accumulate in a way that 63 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: is pretty upsetting and you could understand would be very trying. 64 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: So Susan Saren was from a very devout Irish Roman 65 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: Catholic family. She was the third daughter in her immediate family, 66 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: although her parents didn't really want her to become a 67 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: nun her there other two daughters her sisters already were, 68 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: but she really felt called to this. She finally convinced 69 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: her family that it was the only life for her, 70 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: and then visited a number of convents to try to 71 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: find the right fit. In eighteen fifty one, she became 72 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: a candidate in a Dublin to Ireland Sisters of Mercy Convent, 73 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: and then she went from candidate to novice on August five, 74 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: eight fifty one, taking the name Sister Mary Scholastica Joseph 75 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: and taking her vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, as 76 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: well as service to the poor, the sick and the ignorant. 77 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: And during the time that Sarin joined the convent, so 78 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: did two other women, not at the exact same time, 79 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: but all within a few months of one another. Uh 80 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: that's Mrs Starr, whose religious name was Sister Mary Joseph 81 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: and Mrs Kennedy, whose religious name was Sister Mary Magdalene. 82 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: Both of those women had been married before they joined 83 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: the convent. That is why they're missus. For the purposes 84 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,239 Speaker 1: of simplicity, we are going to stick to using legal 85 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: names rather than their religious names, as that is was 86 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: primarily used in all of the accounts of the court case, 87 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: which is really what we're focusing on today. So by 88 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: Sarren's own account, these three sisters were very close. She 89 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: would later testify, quote, we were all three thrown very 90 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: much into each other's society. I became very intimate with 91 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: Mrs st Are and attached to her, and she to me. 92 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: We were associated in the work of education. I was 93 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: equally attached to Mrs Kennedy, and I should point out 94 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: to that even in different publications of these accounts, this 95 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: was part of her testimony at trial, some of that 96 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: phrasing will shift a little bit because basically the court 97 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: stenographers were taking shorthand and then uh writing things out 98 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: longhand afterwards, and so sometimes the sentence structure is a 99 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: little different. If you ever see another version of this 100 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: anything that we're quoting today, you might see slight variations 101 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: in how a sentence is worded just af y i uh. 102 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: And after a time, Mrs Starr was appointed Mother Superior 103 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: of a convent in Yorkshire, England, and at that time 104 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: this is sometime around eight or eighteen fifty six, Mrs 105 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: Starr asked Saren to join her at this new convent, 106 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: which Susan Sarren and her family agreed to, with the 107 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: understanding that if she was unhappy there in England she 108 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: could return to her old convent in Dublin. So initially 109 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: things seemed to go well, but then in eighteen sixty five, 110 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: Miss Sarren was expelled from her community and absolved of 111 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: all our vows, and this was against her will. Four 112 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: years later, in February eighteen sixty nine, Miss Susan Sarn 113 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: filed suit against the Mother Superior of Sisters of Mercy, 114 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: Mrs Starr, and her assistant Mrs Kennedy, who was the 115 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: convent sister in authority. You'll see her listed as Sister 116 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: in authority or superior assistant. Sometimes it's the wording comes 117 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: out different. Uh. Soren accused Star of abuse and of 118 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: conspiring with her colleagues to force Miss Saren to leave 119 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: the convent. She also accused them of falsifying evidence which 120 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: was presented to a church bishop with the intent to 121 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: have her expelled from the order and to address damages 122 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: to reputation and character, because after she was expelled from 123 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: this life, she wasn't really prepared for another vocation uh 124 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: and she was shamed. She felt like she couldn't go 125 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: into a lot of churches. So Miss Sarren was suing 126 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: for five thousand pounds. Proceedings began on February third, eighteen 127 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: sixty nine. Solicitor General John Duke Coleridge was the head 128 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: of the plaintiff legal team, assisted by Mr Digby Seymour 129 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: and a Mr Wills. Henry Hawkins, George Mellish and Charles 130 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: Russell made up the defenses team of solicitors. The case 131 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: was presided over by the Lord Chief Justice, Sir Alexander Cockburn, 132 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: and the charges as outlined before the court on February third, 133 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty nine, were noted by the Court stenographer as 134 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: follows quote. This was an action brought by a professed 135 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: sister of the Order of Mercy against the Mother Superior 136 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: and a professed sister of the same Order in the 137 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: Convent at Hull to recover damages for assault and conspiracy 138 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: to drive her from the convent and have her expelled 139 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: from the Order. The declaration stated that the defendants, on 140 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: diverse occasions, assaulted and beat the plaintiff, and they took 141 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: her clothes in property from her and imprisoned her for 142 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: a long time, whereby she was rendered sick and ill 143 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: and greatly distressed in body and mind. The case, as 144 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: it was laid before the court that day went on 145 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: to include a trover that's a legal action to recover 146 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: the value of property that was discarded by another person. 147 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: This was going to cover a watch, some clothing, books 148 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: and papers. The accusation on the part of the plaintiff 149 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: went on to state that Miss Sarn was legally entitled 150 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: to the basic necessities of life, including food, clothing, and shelter, 151 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: as well as the right to attend services in the 152 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: Roman Catholic Church as a member of the Order, and 153 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: that the defendants had deprived her of these rights. Soren 154 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: also charged Star with libel, saying that the Mother Superior 155 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: told Dr Robert Cornthwaite, the Bishop of Beverly, that Soren 156 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: had complained about her boots clothing and food, was late 157 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: in her work eight during hours we're doing so, was prohibited, 158 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: spoke privately with a priest, was contradictory and disobedient, and 159 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: had illicit conversations with outsiders. The defendants in this case 160 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: actually paid the trover for the lost items at the outset, 161 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: but then pled not guilty to all other charges. When 162 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: Color had stepped up to make opening statements, he said 163 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: to the jury, quote, you will have gathered from the 164 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: opening of the pleadings by my learned friend Mr. Wills, 165 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: that the case which I have to bring to your 166 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: attention is one a good deal out of the common way, 167 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 1: and requiring more than a common amount of your watchfulness 168 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: and patience. The facts of it are strange and painful. 169 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: They are strange and painful as a revelation of human nature. 170 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: They are more strange and painful as a revelation of 171 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: female nature. They are most strange and painful of all, 172 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: as a revelation of conventual female nature, showing what women 173 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: are capable of when they shut themselves up from their 174 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: kind and do violence to the instincts of their nature, 175 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: and what mean and petty cruelty they can wreak upon 176 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: sister women in the name of the God of Love, 177 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: and in an effort to perhaps temper the possibility of 178 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: being called into question as attacking the Catholic Church, Coleridge 179 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,719 Speaker 1: made a point to mention repeatedly that both parties were 180 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,359 Speaker 1: of the same denomination. However, of course he was vilifying 181 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: convents and thus the Catholic Church in the process, and 182 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: women also women for sure. I mean, that's a big 183 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: part of his case, is that like, if you lock 184 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: women up together, they'll just become animals. It's really quite terrible. Uh. 185 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: He did also urge the jury to not let their 186 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: bias regarding Catholics enter into their assessment of the matters 187 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: at hand. This case stretched on for three weeks, and 188 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: throughout it the public just leaned in to hear more. 189 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: The courtroom was full every single day of testimony, with 190 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: both general public and attendance as well as a significant 191 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: number of clergy. The case was so highly publicized and 192 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: was seen as unprecedented, which also drew lawyers not involved 193 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: in the proceedings to attend as spectators. And coming up, 194 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: we will dig into the story of how Mss Saren's 195 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: time in the convent really devolved uh, and how that 196 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: was related in the courtroom. But first, let's take a 197 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: quick sponsor break. There was a sketch made for Vanity 198 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 1: Fair at the time of the trial of Mrs Starr 199 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: the Mother Superior, by the artist Carlo Pellegrini. I would 200 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: actually love to do an episode on him. At some 201 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: point he signed his work ape that was his his 202 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: sketch name. And it looks almost like it could be 203 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: the work of previous podcast subject Charles Adams, as it 204 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: is rather cartoonish and the style feels very similar in 205 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: its Star looks both pious and guilty at the same time. 206 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: Her hands are clasped on the ledge in front of her, 207 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 1: but she is looking to the side with an expression 208 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: that characterizes her as really sort of sinister or sneaky. 209 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: The plaintiffs lawyers relate the early history of Saorence time 210 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: as a nun and that she had a year's long 211 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: relationship with Star without any apparent trouble. Things just changed 212 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: abruptly in eight teens ext one, at the time Starr 213 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: started questioning Sarin about what she had discussed with her 214 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: priest during confession. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that 215 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: she wouldn't want to talk about that, and she took 216 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: this line of questioning as an insult and she refused 217 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: to answer, and her testimony, Saren stated, quote, I thought 218 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: it would be a breach of honor and contrary to 219 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: every regulation. And she continued to refuse to share this 220 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: information despite being asked repeatedly about it. And from that 221 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: point things really turned unpleasant very quickly. Yeah, we'll talk 222 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: about it in a little while. That Mrs Starr never 223 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: is very clear in her testimony that she wasn't saying 224 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: that she thought anything untoward was happening between the two 225 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: of them, but she just felt uneasy about it. And 226 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: that's actually the caption of the the that sketch we 227 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: just talked about, was that she it's something along the 228 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: lines that she had an uneasy feeling. And she alleged 229 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: that she asked all of the other sisters about their 230 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: confessions and that they always share them with her, which 231 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: becomes a strange whole other things. She was apparently very 232 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: controlling woman. The case against Mrs Starr and her colleague 233 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: and how they punished Miss Saren quickly assembled into a 234 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: picture of great cruelty. And I do want to point out. 235 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: You know, we talk a lot. We will continue to 236 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: talk a lot as well in this episode about the 237 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: bias against the Catholic Church. During this time, the plaintiffs 238 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: legal team was very clearly playing on this, so much 239 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: so that there were even times when the magistrate would 240 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: break in and be like, I think you're over dramatizing 241 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: this or mischaracterizing this. Um so they really are trying 242 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: to like paint these two women is just super villains. 243 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: But over the course of Sarren's life with Star as 244 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: her mother's superior after this this incident began where she 245 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: would not tell her her confession. The plaintiff claimed that 246 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: she was treated far more cruelly than any of the 247 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: other sisters in the convent. She was given more and 248 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: more difficult chores than others. This was on top of 249 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: the fact that it has already mentioned in a lot 250 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: of letters establishinging before any of this happened, that she 251 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: was not a physically strong person to begin with. Uh, 252 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: and then the punishments for her various infractions as determined 253 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: by Mrs Starr. Basically she would say, you are a liar. 254 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: There was no recourse or like way too to discuss 255 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: or disprove that. Uh. So her punishments that she got 256 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: for any of these were incredibly harsh. So some of 257 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: the things that that Mssarin reported her portions were reduced 258 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: as a punishment. When the Mother Superior accused her of 259 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: sneaking or stealing food, the food she was fed tasted 260 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: off and might have been rancid. She was given foods 261 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: that she was known to dislike, particularly mutton. Every single 262 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: day when it was determined that she wasn't cleaning to 263 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: the standards of the Mother Superior, she was made to 264 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: pin a dirty duster onto her head and wear it 265 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: at meals and during time in the community room. That's 266 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: one of the things that the magistrate and the Solicitor 267 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: General have a big back and forth about, was like 268 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: was this a dirty dust? Had it been used on 269 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: something wet? Was it extra disgusting? Uh And they have 270 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: a big discussion about it. In the court proceedings if 271 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: you ever want to go read them, it's basically two 272 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: men bickering over just how dirty a duster was. The 273 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: boots that were given to Miss Saren for her youth 274 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: had holes in them, and if she complained about this, 275 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: she was deemed to be disobedient. According to her testimony, 276 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: her room was watched at all hours uh and a 277 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: thread was placed on the door knobs so that she 278 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: couldn't leave without detection. This is also written up in 279 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: a couple of different ways. One was that like there 280 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: was essentially a thing on her door knob that she 281 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: couldn't turn the door now without it falling. There is 282 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: another that suggests later on, when things really go quite poorly, 283 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: that there was actually a string tied from her door 284 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: knob to the bedpost of another sister, so that if 285 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: she opened the door, that person would get up and 286 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: know that they needed to follow her around. Mrs Star 287 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: would simultaneously right to the bishop that something had to 288 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: be done to get this in silent and problematic Miss 289 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: Sarn out of the convent, while also writing letters at 290 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: the same time to her family saying that she could 291 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: not leave. Yeah, and that's well documented. That's not like 292 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: just an accusation. Those letters existed and were brought up 293 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: during the case that she was writing over and over 294 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: like we have to do something to get rid of 295 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: this woman. In the meantime, her parents we're writing and saying, 296 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: can we please have her back in Dublin and her going, Oh, 297 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: there's no way she could possibly go back. Similarly, Mrs 298 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: Starr used her influence to smear Miss Sarren's reputation within 299 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: the church to other convents that she might have moved 300 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: to and effectively ensured that way that she was not 301 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: approved for transfer there, and then she would use those 302 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: failures of those appointments that didn't come through as evidence 303 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: against her character. In the four years between eighteen sixty 304 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: one and eighteen sixty five, all of this conflict played 305 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: out and more, with Sarin never living up to Star's 306 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: expectations and always being punished. During that time, Susan Sarn's 307 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: mother tried to advocate on her daughter's behalf. She wrote 308 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: to church officials that the archbishop and Dublin had approved 309 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: a return to her old convent, but Mrs Starr refused, 310 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: saying that once she moved to England, Miss Sarren was 311 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: no longer under the jurisdiction of Dublin church officials. Even 312 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: when word of Sarin's father being gravely ill was sent 313 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: on to the convent, Mrs Starr did not relay that 314 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: information to his daughter. Yeah, again, that's all stuff that 315 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: is substantiated in kind of the letter record that was 316 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: brought up during the case. And at one point Miss 317 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: Sarin wrote to her uncle, who was also a priest, 318 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: and she mentioned him the Mother Superior had said that 319 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: she was frustrated with her mother's letters and that there 320 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: had also been some miscommunication or confusion about some of 321 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: her behavior at the convent, and Susan Sarin framed all 322 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: of this in a fairly positive way. She kind of 323 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: sets it up like, I know, the Mother Superior doesn't 324 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: mean to make these mistakes kind of thing. She suggests 325 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: she's not unhappy at all as a nun, but she 326 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: was just really unsettled there at her current convent, and 327 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: that she would like to move and that she was 328 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: sure that things would write themselves if she could. That 329 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: letter never made it out of the convent, though Starr 330 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: kept it from being sent and wrote her own letter 331 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: to Sarn's uncle, who was the Reverend T. Matthews. She 332 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: urged him to find another appointment for Miss Saren and 333 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: told him that she had committed quote the most grave offenses, 334 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: stating quote I fear we shall be obliged to seek 335 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: to have her released from the obligation of her vows, 336 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: which are no longer to her an occasion of merit 337 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: but an occasion of sin, and the Reverend Matthews wrote 338 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: back that he knew he couldn't pre judge the situation, 339 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: but that this all seemed really, really odd to him, 340 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: since his niece had been such an exemplary nun throughout 341 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: her time since she took her vows, and so much 342 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: so that Mother Superior had in fact asked her to 343 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: move to England along with herself, and he suggested that 344 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: if they would just wait until after the busy season, 345 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: like once Easter was passed, then they could talk about 346 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: doing something and then he would have time to travel 347 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: to England and investigate the matter himself. And the Mother 348 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: Superior Mrs Starr wrote the Miss Sarren had to be 349 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 1: removed before Easter. In the meantime, Susan Sarren's mother and 350 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: brother had visited the convent and were admitted only after 351 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: having been turned away first. They had a brief visit 352 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: in which Miss Sarren assured them that everything was well, 353 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: although she was weeping and she was clearly in distress. 354 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: Not long after that visit, Sarin wrote to the bishop 355 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: and got a reply. Those two letters weren't available at 356 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,959 Speaker 1: the time of the trial. Though this communication incensed Mrs Starr, 357 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: and she made Miss Sarren confess publicly, including a written 358 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: statement that she had written to her uncle without permission. 359 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: She couldn't make her confess to having communicated with the 360 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: bishop because that was her right as a nun. Yeah, 361 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: that was what really made her angry. It was kind 362 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: of like you went over my head that she made 363 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: her confess to other letter, writing that that was not 364 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: apparently okay without permission. In August four, eighteen sixty two, 365 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: Mrs Starr wrote a letter to the Bishop herself to 366 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: convey her chagrin, writing with emphasis that quote, such intercourse 367 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: with externs for such purpose is a violation of a 368 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: most essential point of religious life. So as she was 369 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: saying was that she felt that since Sarin had communicated 370 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: with her uncle with the intent that he would help 371 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: her move to a different convent, that she had sinned 372 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: gravely and that she should quote be released from her 373 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: vows and be dismissed from the community. From that summer 374 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: on Star started a whole new series of punishments. The 375 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: Mother Superior told Sarren she could only write home once 376 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: a year. The letters she received, including those from her father, 377 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: who continued to be unwell, were heavily censored and then 378 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: destroyed after she read them once with a witness present. 379 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: She wasn't allowed any communication with her two sisters or 380 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: her brother, who were also clergy. Yeah. The reason that 381 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,479 Speaker 1: that Mrs Starr gave all of that censorship was that 382 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: she felt that in some of the letters the family 383 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: had either exaggerated or lied, and that she thought that 384 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: was sinful, so she had struck it out so that Sarin, 385 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: who was already in her view ms could not read 386 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 1: more sinful things. Um. And that was also why they 387 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: destroyed the letters. It's a bit much, um. And as 388 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: all of this was escalating at the convent, the Bishop, 389 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: Robert Corinthwaite, had been in contact with miss Oren's uncle, who, 390 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: as you recall, was also a priest, and so the 391 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 1: bishop arranged to visit the convent and investigate everything as 392 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: quickly as he could, and he arrived in November of 393 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty two. He was already like in the habit 394 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: of making periodic visits to all convents, so it was 395 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: not odd for him to have shown up there. It 396 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: wasn't only for this purpose, but he was there in November. 397 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: He reassured miss Saren after investigating, that he thought she 398 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: had done nothing wrong and that he would see that 399 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: she would be treated more kindly and that she could 400 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: come directly to him with any complaints and not complain 401 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: to anyone else within the Higher Key. But after he left, 402 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: matters continued exactly as they had before, except they actually 403 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,719 Speaker 1: got worse. Star created a whole new list of rules 404 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: that's Aren't had to live by. She wasn't allowed to 405 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: speak with anyone outside the convent. If a visitor came 406 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: and addressed a question to her, she was required to 407 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: motion them to someone else. She had to submit a 408 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: written record of her faults every month, and her workload 409 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: was increased. When her brother died rather suddenly, they kept 410 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: the news from her for months. She was told long 411 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: after the fact, and then was forbidden from taking any 412 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: time to grieve. And all of this seemed to really 413 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: take a toll significantly on miss Oren's mental state, and 414 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: in a lengthy letter that she wrote to Mrs Starr 415 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: during a retreat, her writing takes on a very unsettling 416 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: tone and it really starts to exhibit the language of 417 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: someone who has been systematically abused and has come to 418 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: believe that what their abuser is telling them is in 419 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: fact the truth. There is one particular passage in which 420 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: she describes what to most ears would sound like an 421 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: exceedingly minor transgression of folding up a letter that she 422 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,959 Speaker 1: had been writing before a senior sister had instructed her 423 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: to do so. And then after talking about this, she 424 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: writes this rather heartbreaking to me line of I am 425 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: always I believe to be doing things wrong. And then 426 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: she also goes on in that same letter, which is 427 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: quite lengthy, to describe a recent confession in which she 428 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: was troubled that the priest didn't seem to understand how 429 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: sinful she was, and she wrote, quote, I really tried 430 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: to make him think me as bad as I did myself. 431 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: Sarn's brother, who was a priest, visited and this visit 432 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: left him unsettled. After being allowed less than fifteen minutes 433 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: with his sister and seeing her looking and behaving unlike herself, 434 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: he wrote to the bishop, who questioned Mrs Starr on 435 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: the matter. She replied that quote, the presence of Sister 436 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: Scholastica amongst us is a very heavy cross. She is 437 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: an enemy living in our mid And we're going to 438 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: continue to talk about the last months of Miss Sarn's 439 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: time at the Convent in just a minute, but first 440 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: we'll take a break from all of this rather sad 441 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: and disturbing tale and have a moment of thanks for 442 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:22,479 Speaker 1: one of the sponsors that keeps his show going. In 443 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: April of eighteen sixty five, Mrs Starr began a campaign 444 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: with the Bishop regarding the quote problem of Miss Saren. 445 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: She asked the Bishop to appoint an investigative committee with 446 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: the intent that Sarin would ultimately be dismissed, and over 447 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: the course of numerous letters, the Mother Superior made Miss 448 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: Sarn out to be a sort of poison on the convent, 449 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: ruining virtually everything about their otherwise harmonious life, and making 450 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: everyone anxious. This is according to Mother Superior, and she 451 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: threatened to resign, writing quote, I do not possess the 452 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: virtue and talent to govern in trying circumstances. It is 453 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: a fault of character in me which time has rather 454 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: increased rather than lessened, that I take things too much 455 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,239 Speaker 1: to heart and am too solicitous about those who are 456 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: under my care. The Bishop replied on April sixty five 457 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: that it was not possible for him to accept Mrs 458 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: Starr's resignation. He encouraged her to have faith in God. 459 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: He stated that if it truly was a case where 460 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 1: the Mother Superior or the sister must go, that the 461 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: sister should be the one to leave. He had never 462 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: seen the problem with Sister Scholastica, but he couldn't let 463 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: one of his convents go without a leader. And stars 464 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: follow up letter after he says no, no, you can't quit, uh, 465 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 1: kind of brings up the same idea that she Mother 466 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: Superior will leave, and then Miss Sarren doesn't even need 467 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: to know that she was the cause, and that all 468 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: sounds sort of benevolent. But then the language quickly shifts 469 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: to outlining the many alleged sins that the younger Nune 470 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: has committed, many of them really really minor infractions. But 471 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,719 Speaker 1: then in particular she starts accusing Miss Sarin of theft, 472 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: and while no one has ever caught her, because apparently 473 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: she was so sly, several different people did suspect her, 474 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: which Mrs Starr sort of holds up in the letter 475 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: is nearly as good as real evidence says, where I 476 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: beg you to keep in mind that Mrs Starr's mother 477 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: Superior was very influential, so it seemed like most of 478 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: the other nuns went along with whatever she said. In 479 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,959 Speaker 1: such matters. Starr even accused Sarin of stealing food from 480 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: the children who came to the convent for school, that 481 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: she was stealing their dinners, although none of the children 482 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: or their parents ever reported such a thing. There's no 483 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: record of any kind of complaint along those lines. In 484 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: order to investigate this possibility of theft, Sarn was forced 485 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: to undress in front of Star and her assistance in 486 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: order to see if she was concealing stolen food or 487 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: other items. This was done twice, once in May of 488 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty three and another time in December of eighteen 489 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: sixty five. In each case, there was no evidence of 490 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 1: any misappropriated goods or food, but the experiences were humiliating. 491 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: And this this was not something she alleged like. This 492 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: was acknowledged, Yes, this absolutely happened, uh and was defended 493 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: as as the only way they were ever going to 494 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: know for certain if she was a thief, and they 495 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: the plaintiffs legal team makes the case that if they 496 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: had found even a crumb, if they had been able 497 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: to find essentially a molecule of a thing, they would 498 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: have reported it because that would have been their evidence. 499 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: But they never found anything. Uh. The Bishop finally acquiesced 500 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: after all of this discussion two Star's request, and a 501 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: committee was assembled to review the case, and ultimately Miss 502 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: Sarren was expelled from the community. The evidence in the 503 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: matter was given to the bishop, but Miss Sarren and 504 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,479 Speaker 1: her uncle who represented her before the committee, were not 505 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: given access to any of it, and it was unclear 506 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: even what the many crimes that she was accused of were. 507 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: They did not have a list of what she was 508 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: being accused of to work from or defend against. It 509 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: was really, in the words of her uncle, I think 510 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 1: he called it something like a travesty. And when the 511 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: court case went to trial, no copy of that evidence 512 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: that allegedly went before the committee could be obtained, and 513 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: the offenses that were allegedly addressed in that missing evidence 514 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 1: didn't even have anything to do with the alleged theft, 515 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: which had actually been the issue that finally drove the 516 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: bishop to action. According to the Solicitor General, who was 517 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: representing Sarn her legal battle. These were the same sorts 518 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: of petty charges that Starr had been trotting out for 519 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: some time. Sarren had been disobedient, that she had written 520 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: letters without permission, that she had eaten buttered toast, and 521 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: that she had been eating cake. During the trial, those 522 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: last two were met with some laughter in the courtroom. 523 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: Four fits of the bishop's committee had to vote in 524 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: favor of the nun's innocence for the terms of the 525 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: church's committee assignment. That didn't happen, though, and she was expelled. 526 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: Miss Saren was unwilling to leave the convent though. While 527 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: she had been unhappy with her treatment there, she did 528 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: not want to leave what she believed was her calling, 529 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,719 Speaker 1: and to drive her out, Mrs Starr confined her to 530 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: her room. Her fire was taken away. This was in winter, 531 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: she could not have soaper water. She was only given 532 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: leftover food from the plates of other sisters after meals 533 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,479 Speaker 1: were concluded, and when she refused to change from her 534 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: religious garments to regular clothes, she was eventually stripped of 535 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: her habit while she slept, so she had no choice 536 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: but to change into the provided civilian where and finally, 537 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: after this dragging on for some time, Susan Sarn had 538 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: had enough. She became quite ill and her spirit was broken, 539 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: and so she wrote to her brother, who immediately came 540 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: to take her away from the convent. During the testimony, 541 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: Sarren's uncle, father Matthews, testified that while things had started 542 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: out fine at the convent in England, over the years 543 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: that Sarin was there, he went from being welcomed and 544 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: well received to being kept away from her are only 545 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: allowed to see her in very brief visits. He also 546 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: described his niece slowly changing and felt that things were 547 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: not right with her, and when the Bishop was on 548 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: the stand, he recalled that after his visit in which 549 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: he reassured Miss Saren, that Mrs Starr had cried when 550 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: he left because she was unhappy with what he had 551 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: said to her. He said, quote, I did not like 552 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: to tell them Mrs Starr and Mrs Kennedy my feelings, 553 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: and I left them very dissatisfied, and certainly Mrs Starr cried. 554 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,719 Speaker 1: The Solicitor General also pointed out that Star contradicted herself 555 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: and her testimony. For example, she mentioned that after the 556 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: Bishop's visit, she wrote, quote the issue of the visitation 557 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: gave her and her supporters an immense triumph over us, 558 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: of which they show their full appreciation whenever they have 559 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: an opportunity. But then, under questioning, it turned out that 560 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: she couldn't come up with any such supporters. She'd initially 561 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,479 Speaker 1: said that she meant Sarren's family, but they hadn't been 562 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: allowed to visit often, if at all, and even when 563 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: they did see Miss Sarren, it was briefly. They usually 564 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: didn't see the mother superior. Yeah. He was basically like, 565 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: when exactly did anybody learn this over you? Because these 566 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 1: people weren't even around when you said they were. Uh. 567 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: And there were a lot of instances like that where 568 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: her sort of double dealings where she was writing simultaneous 569 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: letters saying very different things were coming up. And uh, 570 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: she she did not do particularly spectacularly under questioning, there 571 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: were a lot of I don't know is in the mix. Uh. 572 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: Mrs Starr was actually found also to have destroyed some 573 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: of the papers that were germane to this court case. 574 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: She said that she did so because she had felt 575 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: that the matters in them were settled, but some of 576 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: them were destroyed after Miss Sarron began legal action, which 577 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: of course is not something you're supposed to do. Mr Coleridge, 578 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,959 Speaker 1: the Solicitor General, noted that while both Mrs Starr and 579 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: Mrs Kennedy were quick to say that one of miss 580 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: sarn sins was pointing out the flaws of others, that 581 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: they were both awfully quick to belt out a let 582 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: me of the transgressions that they felt that she had committed. 583 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: Through the witnesses that they called, the defense tried to 584 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: build a case against Miss Sarren's character. They claimed that 585 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: she liked possessions and things like clothes. They also said 586 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: that she liked to around the convent at night, which 587 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: was both odd behavior and something they didn't want her 588 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: to do. She wasn't enthusiastic about teaching children, and she 589 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: was said to sneak food outside of allowed meal times. 590 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: Her writing to family members using language such as my 591 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: dearest uncle was considered excessive and overly affectionate. In short, 592 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: she was not per the defense upholding her vows. And 593 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: of course, there was also this hope for some of 594 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: the spectators that as the defense started to characterize Saren 595 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: as a very poor nun, that there might be something 596 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: truly salacious revealed in the midst of all of the testimony, 597 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: and at one point it did come up that Miss 598 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: Saren became quote excited when a certain priest would visit 599 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: the convent. This, of course, immediately got people thinking there 600 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: was some sort of sexual relationship. That idea was pretty 601 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: quickly dismissed, even by Mrs Starr, but still the rumor 602 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: mill kind of ran with that one. It's clear from 603 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: some of the response to things that came up in 604 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: this trial that there was a degree of humor that's 605 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,479 Speaker 1: the Solicitor General and some of the assembled crowd found 606 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: in the rules of the convent, and to counter that, 607 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: a big part of the defense's case was trying to 608 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: convey that while some of the rules of religious life 609 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: seemed petty or silly to outsiders, they were a vital 610 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: part of a larger devotion. So being obedient to the 611 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: Mother Superior, they argued, was part of the vows that 612 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: Sarren had taken and a life she had agreed to freely. 613 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: On February, the Solicitor General made his closing speech. In 614 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: it he stated how big this case really was to 615 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: the welfare of Miss Saren, saying, quote, it is my 616 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: duty to tell you now that this is, in truth 617 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: and fact, an issue of her social life and death. 618 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: It is a question whether she is to be permitted 619 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: to continue the life to which she has devoted herself, 620 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: to which she is intimately wedded and passionately attached, or 621 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: whether she is to be flung back upon the world 622 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: which she believed she had left forever, and for which 623 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: she is now entirely unsuited, with a stain upon her 624 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: character which no lapse of time can ever avail to 625 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: a face. He also took the opportunity to point out 626 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: that the convents of England were, in his view, operating 627 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: under such a veil of secrecy that it allowed these 628 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: kinds of abuses to happen. He pointed out how in 629 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: this particular case, all the cruelty brought to bear by 630 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: Mrs Starr seemed really against what he knew of Christianity. Yeah, 631 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: he definitely uses that tactic of going, look, I'm not 632 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: a clergy member. I wouldn't claim to be an expert 633 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: on religion, but what I know of Christianity this doesn't 634 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 1: seem to fall in line with Yeah, there's a difference 635 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:44,240 Speaker 1: between being strict and bullying someone yes. Um. The jury 636 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: reached its verdict on February eighteen sixty nine, after deliberating 637 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: for less than an hour, and while a number of 638 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: papers actually reported that things seemed to be stacked in 639 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: favor of the defendants, the jury found in favor of 640 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: the plaintiff on the counts of libel and conspiracy. See 641 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: Sarin was not, however, awarded the five thousand pounds that 642 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: she had sought. She was awarded five hundred. This wasn't 643 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: the end of it, though. Starr and her staff appealed 644 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: the jury's decision, but the second wave of legal action 645 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: didn't get all the attention that the first one had. 646 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,399 Speaker 1: It faded from the public eye as other cases rose 647 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: up and came into focus, and it never made it 648 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: to trial. In April of eighteen seventy the matter was 649 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: settled out of court, and this trial, and particularly Mrs 650 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: Starr's testimony in it, really only fanned the flames of 651 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: suspicion against the Catholic Church and a general anti Catholic 652 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 1: sentiment in England. Uh that was of course in place 653 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: long before Miss Sarin brought her case to the court, 654 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: even before the trial began, like leading up to it, 655 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,479 Speaker 1: newspapers were running editorials suggesting that girls and young women 656 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: who might be considering entering a convent should consider such 657 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: a move very carefully, given the possible situations that the 658 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: Sarin versus Star case illuminated. Yeah, you and I had 659 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 1: a conversation before we came into the studio about how 660 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: uh stars response to a lot of these allegations was 661 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: sort of like, yeah, that's how we do it in 662 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: a convent, not whether there's a problem or a bad 663 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: way to behave. Yeah. I mean, she really didn't deny 664 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: most of the charges. In some cases she tried to 665 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: say no, no, that's framed for maximum dramatic effect and 666 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: to make us look bad. Yes, we took her food away, 667 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: but you have to understand that was a punishment that 668 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: we felt fit the crime of of complaining about her 669 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: food or their belief, even though they never found evidence 670 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: that she was stealing food. So it's a little bit weird. 671 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: Like we said, there was no, not really a lot 672 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: of oh that didn't happen, more a matter of well, 673 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: it didn't happen quite like that, and if it did, 674 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't that bad. That's how we do it. In 675 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: a preface written by James Grant Esquire to accompany the 676 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: publication of the trial account. Shortly after it was concluded, 677 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: he wrote, quote, the whole country has been astounded by 678 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: the evidence which has been brought forward in the course 679 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: of this remarkable trial of the real character of Roman Catholicism. 680 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: The outer world now see Potpoury with a clearness of 681 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: vision with which they never saw it before. And the 682 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 1: site will not, I feel assured, render it more attractive 683 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: in the eyes of those whose mental perceptions are not obscured. 684 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: They must, on the contrary, be appalled as well as 685 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: amazed by the hideousness of the features which potpour represents 686 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: as exhibited within the last few weeks in Westminster Hall. Yeah, 687 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: he also was trying to make a case that there 688 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: should be some sort of oversight put in place where 689 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: convents were regularly inspected and toured by people outside the church. 690 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: I mean, he makes very clear in that preface that 691 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: he is anti Potpourri. So that, um. The story of 692 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: the Great Comment case persisted for decades after it was over, though, 693 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: as the juicier details were recounted over and over and 694 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: sometimes bent and dramatized a bit, even into the early 695 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 1: eighteen nineties, there were still penny press versions of this 696 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: trial being printed, and the covers would feature things like 697 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: two nuns whipping a partially undressed third none. Obviously, there 698 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: was a significant degree of bias against the convent and 699 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church from the outset in this case, Although 700 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: the Solicitor General urged the jury to disregard such personal bias, 701 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 1: it's almost impossible to imagine that there was done. Yeah, 702 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 1: it's not like I mean, I'm sure they all intended well, 703 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: but I'm there. I'm also sure that in the backs 704 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: of their minds many of them were like uh. There 705 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: was also a point made by Mrs Star at one 706 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: point that, of course Miss Saren wanted to make this 707 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: a legal matter and try it before a Protestant jury 708 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: that would have anti Catholic bias, rather than go through 709 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: the Church's channels of review, which she felt would obviously 710 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 1: find in favor of her mother's superior um. It is 711 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: also difficult to truly separate the bias that we've been 712 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: talking about from many of the accounts of the trial 713 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: that we have. So while the court reporter's account is 714 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: theoretically unbiased and the barristers in the case all appeared, 715 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: at least on the surface, to strive to act outside 716 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: of any such cultural or religious bias. They too, probably 717 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: were motivated on some level by it, or, in the 718 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: case of the plaintiffs representation, to be carefully playing on 719 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,840 Speaker 1: the juries inherent bias, even while saying do not be biased. Moreover, 720 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that this case was published so 721 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: frequently in England following its conclusion was this desire to 722 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 1: warn young women away from a life in the clergy. 723 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,800 Speaker 1: So if Sarren was able to return to her life's 724 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,760 Speaker 1: calling and another convent after this case was finally settled, 725 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: there are no records of that that we can find. Yeah, 726 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: I didn't turn any up, um and she, you know 727 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: it kind of she kind of vanishes from the public 728 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: record after that. It's entirely possible she went and lived 729 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: with family from that point on and that was the 730 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: remainder of her life, because it doesn't seem like she 731 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: was really going to be able to like suddenly take 732 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: on a career or be married. Yeah, I mean, this 733 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: was what she wanted forever. And one of the things 734 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: that comes up in the trial is that the greatest 735 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: heartbreak and to her one of the most painful things 736 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: about being expelled is that they took her ring from her, 737 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: which is, you know, like the symbol of her being 738 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 1: married to the church and a bride of Christ, and 739 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 1: that that was like the biggest heartache that she endured 740 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 1: amongst all of these other things was that they were saying, no, 741 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: that thing that you said you are, you're not, which 742 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: was incredibly painful for her. One of the things that 743 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: I think would have been really difficult at the time, 744 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: even for people who we're trying to really put their 745 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: own biases aside, Like, there weren't that many other situations 746 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,879 Speaker 1: where a group of people would be living by themselves 747 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,919 Speaker 1: together by themselves, is not like isolated from the rest 748 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 1: of the society in a group for their whole lives. Like, 749 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of comparison to another similar situation 750 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,320 Speaker 1: where you might also see instances of abuses and bullying. 751 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 1: So it probably appeared to people as though this was 752 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: unique to Catholicism or unique to con events, when really 753 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: theyre just weren't exactly comparable situations. Yeah, I mean, I 754 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: wish I could take those people forward in time and 755 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: show them like any Internet interest group and watch how 756 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: it employed in similar highly not the same level of stuff, 757 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 1: but it certainly happened. I am I was. I keep 758 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,919 Speaker 1: being reminded throughout this of just being bullied by classmates 759 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:26,720 Speaker 1: in middle school, Like it felt like that level of pettiness, 760 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: and oh yeah, there's a mean girls element to it. 761 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: And really, when you think it all started because she 762 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't tell this woman what she had confessed to her priest, 763 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 1: it gets very you realize how petty the seed is 764 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: that leads to so much pain. And also, I mean, 765 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: for the mother's fire. It wasn't like I'm sure she 766 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: wasn't like, yeah, this will drag out for years in 767 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: letters in court, but she couldn't get over that like 768 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: anger at having not been told this thing, and probably 769 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,399 Speaker 1: she didn't even recognize that was the catalyst anymore. Um, 770 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: don't be like that people. Uh is our life lesson 771 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: be kind to one another? That's easy to say. I know, 772 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: I have such much more pleasant and delightful and colorful 773 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: listener mail. Um. This comes from our listener Colleen, who writes, 774 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,880 Speaker 1: Dear Holly and Tracy, thank you so much for the 775 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: wonderful show. I work for a publisher that produces materials 776 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: for K to twelve classrooms, and I am currently working 777 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 1: on a series of primary source libraries for middle and 778 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,959 Speaker 1: high school students. I needed one more document for World 779 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 1: War One, and it was the episode A Brief History 780 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: of Donuts that gave me the idea to use a 781 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: photograph of a donut lassie. It's one story that the 782 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: kids won't miss in history class. Enclosed are a couple 783 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: of sticker packs I developed for work. I hope you 784 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: will get a kick out of them. Sorry, not sorry 785 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: for all the terrible puns. Thank you again for all 786 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: that you do. You're a constant source of inspiration and education. Colleen, Colleen, 787 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 1: this is so sweet, and now I can tell Tracy. 788 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 1: Before we started recording, I was looking at these stickers, 789 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: which are adorable, and I started buckling to myself like 790 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: I had lost my wits. And it's because one of them. 791 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: I don't normally love puns, but these are very clever. 792 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: And the one that I love, it's sort of like 793 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: an encouragement sist sticker, and it's got a picture of 794 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth wearing some groovy eighties style slat sunglasses. Um, 795 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: and it says great but the Great is spelled g 796 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 1: r v I I I and that just tickled me 797 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,359 Speaker 1: to pieces. That's great. Um. They are also great ones 798 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: with fierce Genghis Khan and uh to legit Elizabeth the First, 799 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,879 Speaker 1: among others. They're fabulous and I love them so thank 800 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,800 Speaker 1: you so much, Colleen. You can write to us in 801 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,319 Speaker 1: history podcast at how stuff Works dot com. 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