Speaker 1: Safety is the foundation of everything, and people think that
Speaker 1: safety is about like swaddling people in cotton and making
Speaker 1: them feel comfortable, when actually it's all about voice.
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, I'm so excited because we're going to be
Speaker 2: adding a really special offering onto the back of my
Speaker 2: solo episodes on Fridays. The Daily Jay is a daily
Speaker 2: series on Calm and it's meant to inspire you while
Speaker 2: outlining tools and techniques to live a more mindful.
Speaker 3: Stress free life.
Speaker 2: We dive into a range of topics and the best
Speaker 2: part is each episode is only seven minutes long, so
Speaker 2: you can incorporate it into your schedule no matter how
Speaker 2: busy you are. As a dedicated part of the on
Speaker 2: Purpose community, I wanted to do something special for you
Speaker 2: this year, so I'll be playing a hand picked Daily
Speaker 2: Jay during each of my Friday podcasts. This week, we're
Speaker 2: discussing your relationship with work and how to be more present,
Speaker 2: productive and purposeful. Of course, if you want to listen
Speaker 2: to The Daily Jay every day, you can subscribe to Calm,
Speaker 2: So go to Calm dot com forward slash j for
Speaker 2: forty percent off your membership today. Welcome back to On Purpose,
Speaker 2: the number one health podcast.
Speaker 3: In the world where we dive.
Speaker 2: Into your physical, mental, emotional, financial health, and I know
Speaker 2: that wellbeing is a big priority for all of you,
Speaker 2: and the wellbeing of the people you work with, the
Speaker 2: wellbeing of the people that work for you, if you
Speaker 2: have a team or a company, or you're an entrepreneur,
Speaker 2: or even your family that you work together with. Culture
Speaker 2: is at the heart of that and how we think
Speaker 2: about the people that we interact with daily, how we
Speaker 2: understand how to give them feedback, how to connect with them,
Speaker 2: how to communicate with them more effectively. I mean, if
Speaker 2: the quality of our life, which we know from Harvard's
Speaker 2: seventy five year study that the quality of our life
Speaker 2: is based on the quality of our relationships, then finding
Speaker 2: great culture in our relations is such a key need.
Speaker 2: I was exposed to the fascinating cultures of monk's lives
Speaker 2: when I lived as a monk for three years, and
Speaker 2: I gained so much from that culture that I adopted
Speaker 2: and I brought into my work. But recently I came
Speaker 2: across a book, and I'm always on the lookout for
Speaker 2: that next book that's going to shift my perspective, change
Speaker 2: my mind.
Speaker 3: And I'm a voracious reader. I read a ton.
Speaker 2: I'm always picking up new books at the airport at bookstores.
Speaker 2: My friends are like Jay, like when do you get
Speaker 2: all the time. I'm like, trust me, I just need
Speaker 2: to dive in and learn what I can and take
Speaker 2: what I can. And this book, I cannot speak more
Speaker 2: highly of it because it has been so clarifying, it
Speaker 2: has been so beautifully simplifying of what it means to
Speaker 2: build culture, build teams, communicate effectively, give feedback effectively. And
Speaker 2: so today's guest is the author of my current favorite book,
Speaker 2: which is called The Culture Code. He's the New York
Speaker 2: Times best selling author and this book was named best
Speaker 2: business Book of the Year by Bloomberg, Book Pal and
Speaker 2: Business Insider. His other books include The Talent Code, which
Speaker 2: I haven't read yet, which I'm very excited to read,
Speaker 2: The Little Book of Talent, The Secret Race, Lance Armstrong's War,
Speaker 2: and Hardball, A Season in the Projects. He has served
Speaker 2: as an advisor to many high performing organizations, including the
Speaker 2: Navy Seals, Microsoft, Google, and the Cleveland Guardians. His new
Speaker 2: book is called The Culture Playbook, sixty highly Effective Actions
Speaker 2: to help your group succeed. It's the ultimate handbook for
Speaker 2: fostering and cultivating as streams strong culture and we're going
Speaker 2: to be using that book. Welcome to the show, Daniel Coyle. Daniel,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me Jay. It's really fun to be
Speaker 1: with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really appreciated it. I know I was
Speaker 2: talking about you everywhere. Literally, was talking about you on
Speaker 2: my YouTube channel, I was talking about you on my Instagram.
Speaker 2: And so when your team reached down they said, Hey,
Speaker 2: does Jay want to speak to Daniel, I was like,
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think there's anyone I want to
Speaker 2: speak to more right now. So today is basically my
Speaker 2: opportunity to for free, which you usually get paid a
Speaker 2: lot for, for free, ask you questions about your expertise
Speaker 2: that I can apply inside my company and organization with
Speaker 2: my team members. And if you're in the audience right
Speaker 2: now and you're like, Jay, I don't have a company,
Speaker 2: I'm not an entrepreneur. I'm you know, I don't own
Speaker 2: my own business. Everything that we talk about will be
Speaker 2: applicable to you, whether it's within your organization, within your company.
Speaker 2: It even applies, in my opinion, to your family. It
Speaker 2: genuinely applies to your friends and the people that you
Speaker 2: connect with. So what I'm learning from Daniel in his
Speaker 2: book is not just the culture code for businesses, but
Speaker 2: it's a culture code for life. And I want you
Speaker 2: to see it that way as well. So would you
Speaker 2: would you agree with that?
Speaker 3: Daniel?
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you that question off straight off
Speaker 2: the bat, like I've been using your advice in my
Speaker 2: personal life as much as my professional life.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. No, I have too, And actually writing
Speaker 1: the book was not any different.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: We go into it with these ideas about what culture
Speaker 1: is and how culture is built. Normally think culture is
Speaker 1: sort of like the personality of a group, like it's
Speaker 1: just sort of who they are, Like Disney is Disney,
Speaker 1: and your culture of your group as you. And when
Speaker 1: you sort of look beneath that, what you find is
Speaker 1: that it's much more like a sport, it's much more
Speaker 1: like a skill. It's much more like these these sort
Speaker 1: of certain actions. It's not about who you are, it's
Speaker 1: about what you do. It's about your behaviors. And there's
Speaker 1: this like language of behaviors that helps people connect, that
Speaker 1: helps people open up, that helps people figure out where
Speaker 1: they want to go together. And it does feel kind
Speaker 1: of like a discovery. I have to say, I still
Speaker 1: feel like I'm like, I'm discovering new things about this
Speaker 1: even after having written about it for so long ago.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 2: Let's let's define culture for anyone who's listening. And like
Speaker 2: you said, like today we think of culture like music
Speaker 2: or fashion, and we think of culturally relevant things, but
Speaker 2: we also think about culture as you do talk about
Speaker 2: as within a team, within a company, within a family,
Speaker 2: within an organization. What are the key ten and that's
Speaker 2: that define a culture? And please define culture for us
Speaker 2: as well as that.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting you feel a culture when you walk
Speaker 1: into a space with people, right, you walk into a
Speaker 1: locker room, you walk into a kitchen of a restaurant,
Speaker 1: you walk into a school, and you can feel it.
Speaker 1: What are you feeling there? What is that made of?
Speaker 1: I would define culture as a set of living relationships
Speaker 1: moving toward a goal together. And the visual I want
Speaker 1: you to picture is almost like a flock of birds
Speaker 1: moving through the sky like they're connected. They're connected, they're
Speaker 1: going around obstacles and they're moving somewhere together. And for
Speaker 1: that to happen, there have to be these three behaviors happening.
Speaker 1: There has to be behavior of connection, Like we're in right,
Speaker 1: We're not spinning off and taking off. We're staying together.
Speaker 1: We're sharing information so we can be kind of aware
Speaker 1: of each other, and we're open and transparent about that.
Speaker 1: And we're also know where we're headed. We like have
Speaker 1: something in the windshield that says, this is where we're headed,
Speaker 1: this is where we're not headed. So culture is not
Speaker 1: like this sort of just this vibe. We always talk
Speaker 1: about chemistry and magic of groups, right, it feels like
Speaker 1: magic when we have it. Like if you were to
Speaker 1: write now, think about the best most cohesive group you've
Speaker 1: ever been a part of, Like you could close your
Speaker 1: eyes and you would get a feeling like that what
Speaker 1: it feels like to be with them and it Those
Speaker 1: are like the peak experiences in life. But when you
Speaker 1: x ray those, there are these behaviors underneath them. Right,
Speaker 1: what we feel is that buzz and that champagne bubble
Speaker 1: feeling of being with people we like to solve problems with,
Speaker 1: we like to work with, and that energy and selflessness
Speaker 1: you have in a group. But those champagne bubbles are
Speaker 1: caused by a thing. There's a thing underneath there, and
Speaker 1: that's safety sharing vulnerability and a sense of purpose, and
Speaker 1: those behaviors that build that thing are what's fun to
Speaker 1: tap into because then you sort of realize, hey, I
Speaker 1: don't have to just like wait and hope for chemistry
Speaker 1: to happen. I don't have to just sort of hope
Speaker 1: that this new team gets along and we do well
Speaker 1: on our project. I don't just have to hope that
Speaker 1: when my kids come home from college for Christmas we
Speaker 1: have a great time together. There's actually a they're there.
Speaker 1: There's like moves you can make, things you can say
Speaker 1: and do, and behaviors you can create, and spaces you
Speaker 1: can create that help that happen. So it's a feeling
Speaker 1: that you end up getting a feeling of like a
Speaker 1: little more control over the most magical, mysterious part of life,
Speaker 1: which is those relationships. Like that study said, like it's
Speaker 1: all life is all about relationships. It's all about having
Speaker 1: those peak moments, and if you can tap in to
Speaker 1: the levers and tools that are causing those to happen,
Speaker 1: it's it's a really good feeling.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about that a bit.
Speaker 2: I think one of the biggest challenges inside a company,
Speaker 2: a family, a group, a team, especially in the beginning
Speaker 2: is that everyone comes with their own intentions and their
Speaker 2: own goals.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: So someone may be turning up to this job just
Speaker 2: to pay their bills. That's all they want. They want
Speaker 2: nothing else to do with anyone or anything else. Another
Speaker 2: person's coming in because they're saying, well, this is a
Speaker 2: long term career for me. I want to make a
Speaker 2: name for myself. I want to grow, I want to advance,
Speaker 2: and I want to get some goals at this company.
Speaker 3: Another person comes in and they go, well, you know what, I'm.
Speaker 2: Here because I actually want to learn so that I
Speaker 2: can extract what I know and then go do my
Speaker 2: own thing.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: So you have all of these different emotions, different intentions,
Speaker 2: different psychologies in a group. I guess my question is
Speaker 2: how do you then start forming culture when everyone's coming
Speaker 2: for something completely different.
Speaker 1: Safety is the foundation of everything, and people think that
Speaker 1: safety is about like swaddling people in cotton and making
Speaker 1: them feel comfortable, when actually it's all about voice. So
Speaker 1: if your group were to walk in, this group of
Speaker 1: diverse people that you're talking about, who have diverse purposes
Speaker 1: in their mind, diverse goals, the first thing you would
Speaker 1: get them to do is to say tell me about that, like,
Speaker 1: what do you want to do about this? A beautiful
Speaker 1: design company and ideo that you've probably heard of that
Speaker 1: has this series of meetings before every team project. They're
Speaker 1: called flight meeting, and they say, hey, this is like
Speaker 1: taking a trip. We're gonna have a pre flight meeting,
Speaker 1: we're gonna have a mid flight meeting, we're gonna have
Speaker 1: a post flight meeting. And it's a little calisthenic they do.
Speaker 1: The meetings don't take long, but that's what they do
Speaker 1: with that first meeting, like what are you in for?
Speaker 1: What's gonna give you joy out of this? What do
Speaker 1: you want to learn the most? And you create awareness
Speaker 1: to go back to that flock of birds, like you'll
Speaker 1: bump into each other if you don't know where you're
Speaker 1: at and if you don't know where you're headed. And
Speaker 1: the other big thing that happens in those first meetings
Speaker 1: is defining that north star, like what are we really
Speaker 1: all about? Let's come to some consensus. You might be
Speaker 1: into the learning, you might be into the status, you
Speaker 1: might be into sort of the exploration and the joy.
Speaker 1: Let's find some language around and let's find some way
Speaker 1: to define what that is. And let's keep defining that
Speaker 1: a lot of groups come together and they just sort
Speaker 1: of automatically say, well, our job together is to do
Speaker 1: a good job, right, Our job together is to succeed,
Speaker 1: whatever that means. But actually pausing, and this is where
Speaker 1: I think our work kind of or overlaps in an
Speaker 1: interesting way. I think a lot of you always talk
Speaker 1: about is awareness creating awareness and these moments, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't happen by accident. It happens when you take an
Speaker 1: intentional pause. I think what this culture playbook and this
Speaker 1: cultural skill set in general is really about getting great
Speaker 1: at pausing as a group. Like, there's all this skill
Speaker 1: set to pauses an individual. We talk about mindfulness, we
Speaker 1: talk about all of these habits and rituals and mental
Speaker 1: calisthenics that give us clarity. Groups are no different. They're
Speaker 1: also an entity that needs to navigate and connect and
Speaker 1: figure out what's important and what's not important. And so
Speaker 1: that pause where you say, Okay, what are you most into,
Speaker 1: what are you least into? Why are you here? Where
Speaker 1: are we headed? If we can just get some really
Speaker 1: simple language around that, that is the first step toward
Speaker 1: making us cohere and start to move together.
Speaker 2: What are people's biggest fears when they're starting a new job,
Speaker 2: and then as they progress in the workplace, what are
Speaker 2: their greatest fears? Have you seen patent reset studies that
Speaker 2: show that this is what people struggle with inside organizations
Speaker 2: the most.
Speaker 1: It's pretty contextual. It would depend on the specific one,
Speaker 1: but I think one very common one is reputational risk status.
Speaker 1: You know, I can't afford to look dumb. I can't
Speaker 1: afford to display weakness, which is why in all good cultures.
Speaker 1: It's funny. I really found this out when I went
Speaker 1: and visited a Navy seal. His name is Dave Cooper,
Speaker 1: and Dave, he's a pretty normal looking guy. He's not
Speaker 1: the best shot, he's not the best swimmer, he can't
Speaker 1: bench press the most. He's the great at creating high
Speaker 1: trust teams. That's what he's really great at. And he
Speaker 1: actually trained the seal Team six that got bin laden.
Speaker 1: And while we're at breakfast, he says these words. He says,
Speaker 1: you know, the foremost important words a leader can say,
Speaker 1: I screwed that up. Just really intriguing. Right, like Navy seals,
Speaker 1: you should be pretty confident. You should be pretty bulletproof
Speaker 1: metaphorically and literally, and yet here he is talking about
Speaker 1: this profound fallibility, and I think what that sheds a
Speaker 1: light on is how important sharing vulnerability is, especially if
Speaker 1: you're in a position of power, because that gives everyone,
Speaker 1: especially people new to the organization, a clear sense that, hey,
Speaker 1: this is good to talk about this. We're here to
Speaker 1: get better together. We're here to give each other, make
Speaker 1: each other better and share that feedback and be fallible
Speaker 1: and be weak. So it's really important to make that
Speaker 1: to make that have that moment happen early on. You know,
Speaker 1: in groups forms, there's like three critical moments when every
Speaker 1: group forms. Moment one like the first five minutes you're together,
Speaker 1: it's a big deal, like how are you going to
Speaker 1: get along? Is it safe? Do people care? Does everyone
Speaker 1: have a voice? Second one is the first disagreement. We're
Speaker 1: going to disagree at some point, right, We're going to disagree,
Speaker 1: and the norms we form around that disagreement are we
Speaker 1: disagreeing along task conflict, which is we're going to have
Speaker 1: our ideas, are going to fight and that's a good
Speaker 1: sort of fight? Or is this personal right? And the
Speaker 1: third one is the first moment of learning what's going
Speaker 1: to happen? Are we going to really stop and point
Speaker 1: out the fact we just got a little better. This
Speaker 1: is really cool. I'm really glad you gave me that
Speaker 1: feedback to make me better. So those critical moments, and
Speaker 1: I think in successful groups they're really good at managing
Speaker 1: those critical moments, spotlighting them and normalizing them. So it's
Speaker 1: normal to be safe, it's normal to disagree. Thank you
Speaker 1: for disagreeing with me. Let's have our ideas fight it out,
Speaker 1: and it's great to learn you just made me better.
Speaker 1: Thank you. And if you get those moments right, you're
Speaker 1: investing in in the future success of the group in
Speaker 1: a huge way. And yet our temptation is often to
Speaker 1: like walk past those moments. Right, We're terrible at pausing.
Speaker 1: Most teams are really good at do do do do
Speaker 1: do action action action action. Action in the world gives
Speaker 1: you a lot to do, Like we've never lived on
Speaker 1: a planet or in an ecosystem that gives you more
Speaker 1: information and more to do. And so the teams that
Speaker 1: have got this strength, the strength of pausing, do you
Speaker 1: think it great at stopping and saying what just happened? Here?
Speaker 1: Are we still connected? How can we connect better? That
Speaker 1: That's where the real.
Speaker 2: Power is yeah, absolutely, I'm implementing something new my team
Speaker 2: right now that I've become a big fan of, and
Speaker 2: we call it teach me how to treat you. So
Speaker 2: it's people actually saying that, Hey, here's how I would
Speaker 2: love to be treated when.
Speaker 3: I'm coming in in a bad mood.
Speaker 2: Here's how i'd love to be treated when I have
Speaker 2: a bad idea. Here's how i'd love to be treated
Speaker 2: when I have a good idea. Here's how i'd love
Speaker 2: your response to be if we're working virtually. So someone
Speaker 2: may say I don't like lots of messages virtually. I
Speaker 2: prefer a phone call right than an instant message, or
Speaker 2: I prefer i'm if I am feeling down, I prefer
Speaker 2: you don't ask me about it and we just continue
Speaker 2: as business as usual because that's easier for me. And
Speaker 2: what I like about this is that it actually places
Speaker 2: responsibility on us as individuals to have to explain to
Speaker 2: others how we work and that first of all, if
Speaker 2: you don't know that, you get an opportunity to figure
Speaker 2: that out. Second of all, now you're not coming into
Speaker 2: the workplace worrying why everyone's acting a certain way, because
Speaker 2: you've actually asked them to be that way, and so
Speaker 2: now you're free of that pressure of expectation of everyone
Speaker 2: tiptoeing around you or not not knowing or worrying what
Speaker 2: to do. So it's I'd love to share that with
Speaker 2: you and go do you like that?
Speaker 3: Do you not like that?
Speaker 2: What part of it works? What doesn't work? How can
Speaker 2: we improve that?
Speaker 1: You must have gotten my memo on how to treat
Speaker 1: me because I love that idea. I think that's it.
Speaker 1: That's a really, really good idea, and you're not the
Speaker 1: only one to do it. That's one of the fascinating
Speaker 1: things about this moment. We're living in a lot of
Speaker 1: change in the landscape, a lot of change, and one
Speaker 1: of the biggest that's causing all these experiments. And so
Speaker 1: what you're describing I've heard described as user's guide. You know,
Speaker 1: there's manual to me. I mean, we can a quick
Speaker 1: start guide with our television sets, like why don't we
Speaker 1: get it? With our people that we work with, it's
Speaker 1: the exact same thing, and it's very powerful because it
Speaker 1: creates two moments of reflection. As you just described. First moment,
Speaker 1: You've got to figure out I'm at my best when
Speaker 1: I'm at my worst, when what I need from you is,
Speaker 1: what I don't need from you is and then that
Speaker 1: person gets an opportunity to see that and reflect. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1: that is exactly the kind of pause. I think it
Speaker 1: allows a team to navigate together. And you know, this
Speaker 1: landscape is asking us to do groups to do two
Speaker 1: things that are very difficult. Right now, how do you
Speaker 1: stay connected and change at the same time? You know,
Speaker 1: hybrid work, huge change, social justice questions, big change in questions,
Speaker 1: new generations coming into the workplace with a new idea
Speaker 1: of the social contract around work, huge change. So how
Speaker 1: do you like stay malleable? You know where I'm connected,
Speaker 1: but I'm able to reshape myself almost like that flock
Speaker 1: of birds and navigate together. And I love that. I
Speaker 1: love that user's manual idea that you have teach me
Speaker 1: how to treat you. That's really really good.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, And I love hearing the other language for the
Speaker 2: user manual or the user guide. I think that's really
Speaker 2: interesting as well. And I could agree with you more.
Speaker 2: I think I love the idea of the pause that
Speaker 2: you're saying and filling that pause effectively. And I think
Speaker 2: one of the biggest things when I pause or I
Speaker 2: encourage people to pause or I hear from them. I
Speaker 2: know that a lot of people will be listening right
Speaker 2: now and say, Jay Daniel, my workplace is a toxic environment, right,
Speaker 2: it's a negative environment. I struggle with being there sometimes
Speaker 2: I don't look forward to going to work, or if
Speaker 2: we're working virtually, I am drained by it, not just
Speaker 2: by the tech of it, but the actual interactions. What
Speaker 2: does someone in that scenario, how did they have to
Speaker 2: How can they think or rethink what they're doing or
Speaker 2: how they can function in that space?
Speaker 1: Don't think, just run. If it's that toxic, get out.
Speaker 1: That would be number one. Number two is a saying
Speaker 1: that I've come to really appreciate, which is that sure
Speaker 1: is the fifteen feet around you, and there's a circle
Speaker 1: of control. And there's a lot of things about our
Speaker 1: life that we cannot control. There's a lot of things
Speaker 1: about our jobs and particularly that we cannot control. But
Speaker 1: having positive, healthy, learning, safe interactions with a small group
Speaker 1: is a doable thing. It is an absolutely doable thing.
Speaker 1: And one of the exercises we have in the playbook
Speaker 1: is you have a you are the center of a circle,
Speaker 1: and then you sort of track your map around you
Speaker 1: putting the initials of people you work with, and the
Speaker 1: closer they are to you, the more secure and strong
Speaker 1: that relationship is. And the idea is to kind of
Speaker 1: map that in your mind and identify where those strength
Speaker 1: is and identify where you might want to build and
Speaker 1: grow those relationships by sending signals of safety and connection,
Speaker 1: by maybe being vulnerable a little bit, so seeking those
Speaker 1: things out. And the other thing I think that helps
Speaker 1: those sorts of situations is to put focus on the
Speaker 1: learning piece of it. You know, that's the one thing
Speaker 1: that we're work can often give us opportunity, access to
Speaker 1: make us better in some small, meaningful way, and trying
Speaker 1: to seek out those opportunities. There is another very simple
Speaker 1: concept that I've seen some cultures do that I talk
Speaker 1: about in the book too. It's called flash mentoring. It's where,
Speaker 1: you know, getting a mentor is a really big ask,
Speaker 1: It's a really big deal these heavy relationships. Well, some
Speaker 1: groups have solved for that by creating flash mentorships where
Speaker 1: a smaller ask you go to someone you admire, even
Speaker 1: if it is a largely toxic place, find somebody who's
Speaker 1: work you admire, and say, would you mind if I
Speaker 1: just like walked you, you walked me through your typical day,
Speaker 1: or tell me how you prepared for that presentation, or
Speaker 1: give me some feedback on this. Smaller, shorter, coffee sized
Speaker 1: interactions that are built around learning can be a really
Speaker 1: effective way to get a little bit more out of
Speaker 1: that work.
Speaker 2: Dare Yeah, I really like how specific that is. Often
Speaker 2: when we think about mentorship, we're like, I want you
Speaker 2: to be my mentor, and it's like this big life
Speaker 2: decision and that person may not have time, they may
Speaker 2: not have the energy. We miss out on the opportunity,
Speaker 2: as you're saying, to learn something specific in short term
Speaker 2: that could have an amazing impact. And also that person
Speaker 2: could see you apply what they just shared with you,
Speaker 2: and then with that mini experiment they go, oh, I'd
Speaker 2: love to mentor you further, right, So it builds that
Speaker 2: trust in these mini bites and chunks rather than someone
Speaker 2: takes you on. You can't deliver, you have something personal
Speaker 2: going on, and all of a sudden they feel like, well,
Speaker 2: why am I wasting my time mentoring this individual too?
Speaker 2: Where that leads me to a really interesting places. Can
Speaker 2: people impact and shift culture when they're not the boss,
Speaker 2: when they're not in charge Is it possible.
Speaker 1: Yes, it is, it is. It's difficult. It's difficult, and
Speaker 1: that the words that I would use are a word
Speaker 1: that you just use, which is experiment being oblique. I've
Speaker 1: seen people influence culture when they have a bad boss
Speaker 1: and the boss doesn't want to change by providing that
Speaker 1: boss with a book that might you know, sliding in
Speaker 1: their door, or creating a conversation, or forgetting the boss
Speaker 1: and just trying to model and create what does a
Speaker 1: great group look like. Let's have a coffee gathering at
Speaker 1: ten am every Monday and start talking about creative new
Speaker 1: ideas and that initiative which is born in that idea.
Speaker 1: That culture is the fifteen feet around you that you
Speaker 1: have control over the signals you send. In the larger sense,
Speaker 1: the idea here is one. It's a really important distinction
Speaker 1: between the things that are complicated and things that are complex.
Speaker 1: We often tend to think that culture is just if
Speaker 1: I do the right thing, the right thing will happen.
Speaker 1: There'll be some linear effect, like if I just had
Speaker 1: the right thing to coss right. But that's not actually
Speaker 1: how it goes. Culture isn't just complicated. Culture is actually
Speaker 1: complex complicated things. There's a way to do it, like
Speaker 1: it's building an engine of a Ferrari. Like I can
Speaker 1: give you the diagram and you can follow the diagram
Speaker 1: and you'll build it. But complex things change every time
Speaker 1: you do anything. So it's the difference between you know,
Speaker 1: building an engine and raising a kid. So every time
Speaker 1: you do a little experiment, a little probe in the
Speaker 1: culture area, pay attention to what happens and amplify the
Speaker 1: good things and kind of ignore the bad things. So
Speaker 1: if you're building, culture is about doing these constant sort
Speaker 1: of probes and experiments. Let me try, let me try
Speaker 1: a book, let me flip him a video, let me
Speaker 1: show her a conversation that I had recently, Let me
Speaker 1: try this coffee thing, let me try that, And you'll
Speaker 1: find as you sort of you'll experiment forward in a direction,
Speaker 1: and like with any experiment, you'll make some discoveries and
Speaker 1: you'll and follow that energy and see where it leads.
Speaker 1: You know, culture is not like legos. It's not like
Speaker 1: you can just say put this thing on that thing
Speaker 1: and this thing. It's a conversation. You're having a conversation
Speaker 1: with your group, and in every conversation you send a
Speaker 1: signal and then you wait and listen and see where
Speaker 1: it's going and see what you learned and see what
Speaker 1: I discovered.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you're doing that, explore and discover. One thing
Speaker 2: that's really interesting is that I believe, you know, inside
Speaker 2: a healthy organization, you'll have good performers and then exceptionally
Speaker 2: high performers. How do you go about managing an exceptionally
Speaker 2: high performer within a group because often what happens is
Speaker 2: high performers are just so productive and effective that they
Speaker 2: either take on everything themselves or people may struggle to
Speaker 2: keep up with them or work with them because they
Speaker 2: can see that this individual is highly independent, highly self motivated.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, and you see this in
Speaker 2: sports when I think about you know, when I think
Speaker 2: about soccer, which is my favorite sport, having grown up
Speaker 2: in England, you look at stars like Cristiano Ronaldo or
Speaker 2: Lionel Messi or these phenomenal talents, and then in the US,
Speaker 2: people like Tom Brady or Lebron James. Right, you have
Speaker 2: these characters and these personalities. How do you effectively bring
Speaker 2: them into the world and help people Because in some
Speaker 2: of those examples, there's a natural respect and admiration for
Speaker 2: that person because of their almost elite status. But in
Speaker 2: the workplace it's not always like that. It's not always
Speaker 2: as clear cut as you know, this person's the one
Speaker 2: who's who's gonna win us the championship, right.
Speaker 1: No, it's interesting, and that's a great analogy with the
Speaker 1: world of sport. I mean, there are there are occasionally superstars.
Speaker 1: The way the world is moving though, is that I
Speaker 1: think a lot of times those superstars reputation exceeds what's
Speaker 1: actually happening. Our world is so complicated that even with stars,
Speaker 1: they are inevitably not solo actors. They're not out there
Speaker 1: doing it around. There is a connective web of people
Speaker 1: and information and systems that are supporting them. There's a
Speaker 1: cool study that Adam Grant referenced in a recent book
Speaker 1: where they took star surgeons, star surgeons from different hospitals
Speaker 1: away from their teams, and they watched how they performed
Speaker 1: when they moved to a different hospital. And the same
Speaker 1: thing with traders, great finance traders, and they saw how
Speaker 1: they performed when they changed firms. When these people lost
Speaker 1: contact with their system of support, their their performance went
Speaker 1: back to average. I think the cultural move here is
Speaker 1: to not to celebrate the star, but to illuminate the support,
Speaker 1: to spend time talking about praising in certain case, illuminating spotlighting,
Speaker 1: making mantras around the collective activity that's producing. Who passed
Speaker 1: the ball to Rinaldo you know who cleared away the
Speaker 1: defense so that he had a clear move in. I
Speaker 1: think that's a much more healthy place to go, especially
Speaker 1: as our world moves more and more into these you know,
Speaker 1: collective spaces. You know, lately we've been seeing all of
Speaker 1: these films about toxic founders of tech firms. Right, we
Speaker 1: were faranos uber. And the reason that all those tragedies
Speaker 1: happened was that everybody believed in the myth of the superstar.
Speaker 1: Everyone believed that Elizabeth Holmes is different, Travis Kalnick is different,
Speaker 1: you know, Adam Newman is different, and that is not true.
Speaker 1: Like those people do not exist anymore. There was a time,
Speaker 1: I'll bet Henry Ford had more in his brain than
Speaker 1: anybody else, and he was the person you should go
Speaker 1: to for vision direction and he had the answers. But
Speaker 1: we live in a world that moves way too fast.
Speaker 1: We move in a world that's way too complex. To
Speaker 1: go back to that word, to have any single person.
Speaker 1: So if any person comes up and says I have
Speaker 1: all the answers, that is a huge red flag that
Speaker 1: they definitely don't. As Pete Seeger said, be wary of
Speaker 1: great leaders, hope for many good small leaders, right, And
Speaker 1: I think there's a deep truth in that. And so
Speaker 1: having a system that celebrates stars is as we move
Speaker 1: into this area, as we move into our future where
Speaker 1: things are moving faster than ever, more interconnected than ever,
Speaker 1: that's a less healthy approach than the team that we
Speaker 1: have a bunch of stars and everybody's playing a role
Speaker 1: and is aware and helpful, useful.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate that, because, yeah, it's an interesting dynamic
Speaker 2: because I think back to when I was in the workplace,
Speaker 2: and so I worked at Accentia for a few years
Speaker 2: and you know, had a really great career there, have
Speaker 2: a really great relationship with the company, and it was
Speaker 2: a phenomenal time for me. I learned a lot, developed
Speaker 2: a lot, and I found that there were some leaders
Speaker 2: that were just exceptional at championing young talent, you know,
Speaker 2: at other times in organizations, I found that a lot
Speaker 2: of leaders are intimidated by young talent or condescending towards
Speaker 2: and they feel like, well, what do you know, You've
Speaker 2: only been around for two minutes. And I think that
Speaker 2: balance is really interesting because as much as you don't
Speaker 2: want to put too much value on star culture, you
Speaker 2: don't want to damp and star potential because I think
Speaker 2: that's I saw so many friends leave organizations when I
Speaker 2: knew that person was really talented, and I knew that
Speaker 2: person had so much to offer, but the company wasn't
Speaker 2: able to understand and then dial that in. And that's
Speaker 2: something that I say to everyone on my team that
Speaker 2: as much as I want them to have a professional
Speaker 2: goal and a personal goal they want to learn, but
Speaker 2: beyond both of those, I want them to have a
Speaker 2: goal that is about their potential, and I want to
Speaker 2: be the person to help them fulfill their potential. Like
Speaker 2: that's always one of the things I say to anyone
Speaker 2: who joins our company. It's like, I want you to
Speaker 2: fulfill your potential here or even if it's not here,
Speaker 2: I want you to fulfill your potential. I want to
Speaker 2: be a part of that because I know that I
Speaker 2: would have wanted to hear that when I joined an organization,
Speaker 2: and I never really felt that I heard that as clearly,
Speaker 2: and I found that you know, for some people who
Speaker 2: is that, well, if you leave, then we don't you know,
Speaker 2: you're no longer connected to us. And if you stay,
Speaker 2: then you play by our rules. And I think that
Speaker 2: was always a really, really fascinating thing.
Speaker 1: So enlightened as there's certain points where being morally good
Speaker 1: and being smart crossover and actually are the same thing.
Speaker 1: And that's a moment where it is and I see
Speaker 1: that over and over again. There's a I do some
Speaker 1: consulting for the Cleveland Guardians baseball team, and occasionally one
Speaker 1: of our assistant coaches will get an opportunity to be
Speaker 1: a head coach and another team, and there's a bit
Speaker 1: of a tradition, a habit of custom that when that
Speaker 1: coach gets that interview, the front office of circles around
Speaker 1: that person and helps them, helps them build their worksheets,
Speaker 1: helps them build their plan, tells them what suit to wear.
Speaker 1: It gives them contextual information and sends them on their way.
Speaker 1: And it's a beautiful thing. You're losing someone, but you
Speaker 1: are deepening a relationship. And life is long. You know,
Speaker 1: people will circle back around and you will always have
Speaker 1: that relationship. And I think that's I think that's a
Speaker 1: very enlightened and wise way to approach that sort of
Speaker 1: off boarding moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think moving forward with that, there's something that
Speaker 2: I find which I really loved from your book, and
Speaker 2: I'm excited to see how the playbook makes this more
Speaker 2: practical and applicable. And that's what I love about the
Speaker 2: culture Code. It really dulls you into the philosophy, and
Speaker 2: I'm guessing the playbook allows you to really, you know,
Speaker 2: take action on those ideas, which which I think is
Speaker 2: a brilliant combination. Let's talk wout two really interesting things
Speaker 2: in the workplace, gratitude and appreciation and then feedback. And
Speaker 2: the challenge with gratitude is that it can come across
Speaker 2: as flattery and cheap words. And the challenge with feedback
Speaker 2: is that it can come across as criticism or judgment.
Speaker 2: Walk us through what you found is the best ways
Speaker 2: of showing praise, gratitude and appreciation and the best ways
Speaker 2: of giving feedback inside an organization that actually helps the
Speaker 2: person digest how you're feeling and what you want them
Speaker 2: to take away larger.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a g I really love that this
Speaker 1: idea around appreciation of continually reflecting back someone's impact, and
Speaker 1: impact ends up being a really, really important word. There's
Speaker 1: a certain kind of appreciation that happens to good culture
Speaker 1: that is rarely talked about. It was introduced to me
Speaker 1: by the people at Pixar, who talk about the pleasure
Speaker 1: of solving hard problems with people you admire, the pleasure
Speaker 1: of Harvard solving hard problems with people you admire. There's
Speaker 1: a misnomer, sort of this mistaken idea that life in
Speaker 1: top performing cultures is always happy and positive, that if
Speaker 1: you were to go work at Pixar, that you go
Speaker 1: to a meeting and every idea would be a brilliant
Speaker 1: idea and everyone would applaud and then every draft of
Speaker 1: the movie would be better and better and better than
Speaker 1: the last. In fact, when you go to that place,
Speaker 1: as well as any other place, it's not that way.
Speaker 1: There's profound disagreement, there's profound tension, but they're circled up
Speaker 1: around that problem shoulder to shoulder, trying to figure out
Speaker 1: how to make it better, and that the pleasure of that,
Speaker 1: the appreciation they have for each other in those moments,
Speaker 1: is very special. In fact, people will leave cultures and
Speaker 1: often come back for that feeling. That's a special feeling,
Speaker 1: but specifically with appreciation. I think we have to go
Speaker 1: back to that word impact. When appreciation is bad, it
Speaker 1: sounds like sort of at a boy, what a coach
Speaker 1: would tell a player a nice job, good job, go,
Speaker 1: And it's vague, it's generalized, it's not specific to the
Speaker 1: person when it's good. And I saw an example of this,
Speaker 1: and I think I wrote about it in the playbook.
Speaker 1: One example is a weekly impact note. There was a
Speaker 1: it's where you once a week make the habit of
Speaker 1: capturing the impact your team has had on the world
Speaker 1: and on the group, crystallizing it in a very very
Speaker 1: specific language, and sharing it back to the team, almost
Speaker 1: like a little newspaper of the week. Here's the impact
Speaker 1: we had in the world this week. This health clinic
Speaker 1: that did it would gather patient feedback and they would say,
Speaker 1: Nurse Johnson treated me really nicely, really warmly. They would
Speaker 1: share that back. So that idea of continually reflecting back,
Speaker 1: which actually connects to the purpose conversation, because you always
Speaker 1: end up I think using those moments of appreciation as
Speaker 1: a way to spotlight your north star as kind of
Speaker 1: a beacon to say, here's what we look like at
Speaker 1: our best. If we can define that and feel that,
Speaker 1: and name those behaviors and feel those. The better we
Speaker 1: get at that, the better we're going to function, the
Speaker 1: better we're going to perform. When it comes to feedback,
Speaker 1: I have a problem with the whole word. The whole
Speaker 1: concept is a little bit off. It's wrong the idea
Speaker 1: that someone can watch me work and get little samples,
Speaker 1: tiny sample sizes of my work, and then once every
Speaker 1: six month, come in and tell me what I'm doing
Speaker 1: well and what I'm doing poorly. The studies actually show
Speaker 1: that most feedback is pretty darn and accurate. It's based.
Speaker 1: We tend to be biased toward people that resemble us.
Speaker 1: We tend to be biased toward the most immediate work
Speaker 1: they've done. It ends up often creating a bad interaction
Speaker 1: because you have someone who is not informed and not
Speaker 1: ready trying to kind of muscle up to deliver some
Speaker 1: feedback to somebody underneath them, and it's got all kinds
Speaker 1: of problems that break apart groups good feedback. A better
Speaker 1: way to do it was taught to me by a
Speaker 1: woman named Ellen ven Houston, who teaches leadership at Case
Speaker 1: Western University. She flips it. Instead of giving someone feedback,
Speaker 1: you ask them two questions. It's the more differently question.
Speaker 1: You ask them, what do you think you should do
Speaker 1: more of? It's a really powerful question actually, and I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to tell you anything. I'm just saying it
Speaker 1: creates a reflection where they have to say, what's had
Speaker 1: the biggest impact lately? Where have I learned the most?
Speaker 1: What am I most excited by? What you should do more?
Speaker 1: And the second question is what do you think you
Speaker 1: should do differently? That's without being aggressive or threatening. That's
Speaker 1: another one that gets me to ponder where I might
Speaker 1: want to change my mind. So creating these kind of
Speaker 1: safe zones to have the reflection is really what feedback's about.
Speaker 1: So I see a lot of groups moving away from
Speaker 1: the big semi annual annual review where you're going to
Speaker 1: get the truth which isn't really the truth from someone
Speaker 1: who doesn't really know, and moving toward these coaching conversations
Speaker 1: where they're continually asking those questions, what's working right now,
Speaker 1: what are you excited about? What are you worried about
Speaker 1: right now? Let's talk about that and see again, it's
Speaker 1: that conversational nature of culture building that is at the
Speaker 1: core of it's like it's like photosynthesis, right, You've got
Speaker 1: to have these conversations and they'll they'll grow you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love how you just, you know, busted the myth
Speaker 2: around feedback, right, Like I think that there's so much
Speaker 2: emphasis on how to give the perfect feedback or how
Speaker 2: to give the right feedback, And you do give an
Speaker 2: amazing example that you I think extrapolate from both popovic
Speaker 2: and school exams and school essays and how feedback is
Speaker 2: given to students who perform really well in the Culture Code,
Speaker 2: which which I loved, which was that safety making them
Speaker 2: feel a part of something bigger and also sharing it
Speaker 2: with them knowing that you're saying, I actually know that
Speaker 2: you can reach this level, Like I actually believe you
Speaker 2: can get there.
Speaker 3: But what you've said right now, I.
Speaker 2: Think is really really incredible because you're so right that
Speaker 2: we think that based on a small sample of observation,
Speaker 2: we can make a judgment about someone's performance, and the
Speaker 2: truth is that we don't know their intention, We don't
Speaker 2: know why they did that, we don't know what they
Speaker 2: were thinking about. Maybe they were three steps ahead and
Speaker 2: something else went wrong, Like we just have no idea,
Speaker 2: And those questions are really brilliant.
Speaker 3: I found this.
Speaker 2: So in our organization, what we do is we do
Speaker 2: a quarterly review, which includes a self assessment and then
Speaker 2: a joint manager assessment. And what I find really interesting
Speaker 2: every time I do that is how wrong I am
Speaker 2: and how differently I'm thinking in the sense of often I'm
Speaker 2: placing more emphasis on something else that seems to be
Speaker 2: important to me, and I'm not able to see what
Speaker 2: the person is emphasizing. But that conversation opens it up.
Speaker 2: So we sit down and we're doing a you know,
Speaker 2: they've done their self assessment. I say, hey, how do
Speaker 2: you think you've been performing in this area and why?
Speaker 2: And they will list of all these things that they've
Speaker 2: done well or things they need to do less off
Speaker 2: or differently, and I'm thinking, wow, I didn't even think
Speaker 2: about how off of those things, Like how incredible is
Speaker 2: it that this is giving me an opportunity to even
Speaker 2: be more grateful and appreciate this person more. And I've
Speaker 2: found something really interesting. And obviously this is not verifiable statistically,
Speaker 2: because I'm it's anecdotal.
Speaker 3: For me.
Speaker 2: I found that the top performers inside my organization are
Speaker 2: people who give themselves lower ratings than I give them
Speaker 2: so often that I'll be sitting down with some of
Speaker 2: my best people and in every review they'll rank.
Speaker 3: Themselves lower than I did.
Speaker 2: And I'm sitting there going I give it like you're amazing,
Speaker 2: like you know you're incredible, and they they are actually
Speaker 2: looking at more ways to improve. And I find that
Speaker 2: so fascinating as a trend that I've seen over time.
Speaker 1: I love that. No, it's very true. It's certainly true
Speaker 1: in the sports world. You asked, you know, somebody's doing
Speaker 1: doing Brilliantly, Ask Christianna how I was doing, and I
Speaker 1: might not say brilliant. So it's a measure of there
Speaker 1: in these internal narratives that we don't really have access to,
Speaker 1: these internal standards, and an approach of humility. There is
Speaker 1: a Navy seal commander who called it, called it a
Speaker 1: backbone of humility that's required with leadership. And I love
Speaker 1: that phrase because the humility is really it's a strength.
Speaker 1: This is not humility, isn't bending. It's actually being strong
Speaker 1: enough to realize I'm actually only seeing a tiny part
Speaker 1: of the picture here. And I need to learn. I
Speaker 1: need to be humbly. I need to humbly learn what's
Speaker 1: happening in this situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think learning why people are making the
Speaker 2: decisions they are teaches you so much more than the
Speaker 2: decision they made. And so often in your head you're
Speaker 2: telling yourself a story of like, oh, they should have
Speaker 2: thought about this, and they didn't think about this, And
Speaker 2: as soon as you ask them, you realized they thought
Speaker 2: about all of that and more than you did, and
Speaker 2: you're humbled, And it's so much easier to be humble
Speaker 2: in the first place.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I genuinely struggle with, Daniel,
Speaker 2: this is a personal question. Is this challenge that I
Speaker 2: currently have in my life where not only am I
Speaker 2: a host, an author, a coach in my own profession,
Speaker 2: but at the same time, I'm a CEO and a leader,
Speaker 2: And the time I spend on cameras in the time
Speaker 2: i'm with you right now, or interviewing a guest, or
Speaker 2: I'm hosting a TV show or whatever it may be,
Speaker 2: I'm not with my team because I'm doing tasks that
Speaker 2: are creative and outward facing. And so a lot of
Speaker 2: CEOs may do a bit of press, but majority of
Speaker 2: time they're working on the product with the team. They're
Speaker 2: in those groups. They don't necessarily live this combined life
Speaker 2: that a lot of people live today where they're creators
Speaker 2: their talent, they're on camera, but then they also lead teams.
Speaker 2: And I genuinely believe that my life is going to
Speaker 2: be an experiment in figuring out how to do this,
Speaker 2: because I find that naturally, when I'm doing more of
Speaker 2: one of them, it takes away from the time I
Speaker 2: get to do the other, and both are integral to
Speaker 2: the work I do. So have you found any great
Speaker 2: stories or case studies of how people have created not balance,
Speaker 2: because I don't think it's about equality. I think it's
Speaker 2: about creating the right practices and systems that allow you
Speaker 2: to operate in both worlds right.
Speaker 1: A couple of things I've observed. One is that when
Speaker 1: you look at any single when you think there's a
Speaker 1: single leader, you're often wrong. There's often this pairing thing
Speaker 1: that happens when if you look at Pixar, it's Ed
Speaker 1: Capmill and John Lassiter. When you look at the San
Speaker 1: Antonio Spurs, it's R. C. Buford and Greg Popovich, and
Speaker 1: so finding this unique soulmate partner who really has a
Speaker 1: different domain interest than you to make it work. It
Speaker 1: is as you say, like physics is going to stop
Speaker 1: you at some point, right, I mean, there's only so
Speaker 1: many hours and only so much energy, and you've got
Speaker 1: a lot of priorities to do. So finding that partner
Speaker 1: and cultivating, searching and developing that teamwork around that I
Speaker 1: think is incredibly powerful. And the other thing is I
Speaker 1: think always trying when you do have that fork in
Speaker 1: the road where you need to decide between should I
Speaker 1: be productive or should I focus on my people? To
Speaker 1: bias towards your people. When you have that, if it
Speaker 1: feels like a coin flip, go toward the people. It
Speaker 1: was on a call that involved General Mattis, who used
Speaker 1: to head up all of NATO's forces, and someone asked
Speaker 1: him how he spent his day, and he said, I
Speaker 1: spent about forty five minutes on NATO's strategy, and I
Speaker 1: spent the rest of the time coaching my leaders. The
Speaker 1: rest time was coaching leaders, Like eight nights of my
Speaker 1: day was coaching my leaders. And those conversations end up
Speaker 1: feeling inefficient at the time they feel like you're, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I am not doing the important stuff, But
Speaker 1: in fact that's an illusion. You are doing the important
Speaker 1: stuff because you're investing in creating clarity, a landscape, a
Speaker 1: connection that you guys can navigate it together. So those
Speaker 1: are the two things that come to mind as you
Speaker 1: mentioned that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I see myself moving in that direct of
Speaker 2: wanting to you know, I constantly want to be spending
Speaker 2: more time with my leaders and my teams, like that's
Speaker 2: that's all I want to be doing. And I completely
Speaker 2: see the value in that. And I'm learning how to
Speaker 2: how to carve that time out because they also need
Speaker 2: support and help and and you know everything else that
Speaker 2: comes with it. It's not kind of like an outsourced
Speaker 2: delegation job, which which is not my style anyway, but
Speaker 2: but I noticed that that they need that support from me.
Speaker 2: You've talked about having icebreakers or conversation starters for meetings,
Speaker 2: and I love that idea because to me, like I'm
Speaker 2: want to you know, I come from the world of
Speaker 2: like meditation and porse and stillness, So for me, a
Speaker 2: reflection question is like one of my favorite things.
Speaker 3: And I have this restaurant in here in La that.
Speaker 2: I love to go to called Cafe Gratitude because they
Speaker 2: always have a question of the day when you go
Speaker 2: there and they'll give you the question of the day
Speaker 2: as a table and then you know, anyone, even anyone
Speaker 2: who's not used usually into this kind of stuff, is like.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, maybe that's that's really cool idea.
Speaker 2: Right, So what are some of the ones those five
Speaker 2: minute warm ups before meetings that help the quality of
Speaker 2: the meeting itself? What are some of your favorite ones
Speaker 2: or examples you've seen work really well?
Speaker 1: Yeah, this hybrid thing, it's weird, right, I mean, you're
Speaker 1: creating this new space. And as somebody pointed out, is
Speaker 1: a man named Glenn Fajardo who wrote a book on
Speaker 1: virtual rituals. He's from the Stanford Design School. It's good,
Speaker 1: really interesting book. But the insight he has is virtual
Speaker 1: is voluntary. Like if we're actually in a root together,
Speaker 1: you kind of have to pay attention to me. I
Speaker 1: kind of have to pay attention to you. But to
Speaker 1: be virtual, you actually have to create this, this shared space.
Speaker 1: And this is a this is a weird connection. But
Speaker 1: I was this weekend I did one of Tony Robbins
Speaker 1: virtual events. I gave a short presentation at one, like
Speaker 1: for forty minutes beforehand, what were they doing. They weren't
Speaker 1: talking about ideas, they were playing really loud music and
Speaker 1: basically doing yoga and dancing like they were creating this
Speaker 1: shared state, not saying that everyone has to do that,
Speaker 1: but in this sort of hybrid world, to take a
Speaker 1: minute and try to create some shared space. And some
Speaker 1: of the ideas for doing that are, you know, playing music,
Speaker 1: are having everybody like bite a lemon at the same moment.
Speaker 1: Eating on camera turns out to be weirdly effective. It's
Speaker 1: like breaking bread together is one of the more sort
Speaker 1: of powerful things that people do together, and it feels
Speaker 1: very strange to eat on camera at first, but as
Speaker 1: you sort of get used to it, that can be
Speaker 1: also sort of a very simple, powerful thing to do.
Speaker 1: But whatever you do, whether it's you know, a little
Speaker 1: guessing game where you play a song and guess whose
Speaker 1: favorite song it is, whatever that might be, just think
Speaker 1: about creating that shared space in a way that doesn't
Speaker 1: have to do with the work you're doing, in a
Speaker 1: way that just deals with the person the people you
Speaker 1: are at this moment. All that said, it is really
Speaker 1: hard to form real relationships online the smart groups right now,
Speaker 1: and the smart money is in toggling in having people
Speaker 1: if they are hybrid, having times where they are flying
Speaker 1: and getting together for a short amount of time where
Speaker 1: it's maybe half fun and half work, but having that
Speaker 1: time and not saying we're going to live completely in
Speaker 1: the virtual world, because that physical connection acts like a
Speaker 1: booster shot, like like now I really know you, and
Speaker 1: now we can really work together.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I'm glad you clarified that, because I think
Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff is possible virtually, even though
Speaker 2: we know that it's better physically, but it is possible
Speaker 2: to do these small games and ideas virtually, and that
Speaker 2: does form a better connection.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 2: One of the things I was mentioning to people is,
Speaker 2: you know, I do feel we get such an intimacy
Speaker 2: by being in people's homes right now, right and we
Speaker 2: have for quite a while now. But one of the
Speaker 2: things I would do is I'd always say to a
Speaker 2: lot of people, Hey, I'm not being creepy, I'm just
Speaker 2: being curious. I want to know what's in your background,
Speaker 2: Like what's that a picture of or what's that behind you?
Speaker 2: And I found that that just opened up such a
Speaker 2: natural story from them.
Speaker 3: And a natural question.
Speaker 2: So I remember one of mys had a paint brush
Speaker 2: hanging on his wall and I was just like why
Speaker 2: do you have a paintbrush on your wall? And he
Speaker 2: started laughing and he goes, no one ever asks me.
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, I'm asking you, so I
Speaker 2: want to know. I'm being curious, not creepy. And he said,
Speaker 2: you know what, my first ever job was that I
Speaker 2: used to paint fences, and then I used to paint walls,
Speaker 2: and he goes, then I finally got to paint homes
Speaker 2: and it was like a summer job. And now he's
Speaker 2: a big executive of a large company. And he was like,
Speaker 2: I keep that there to remind me of where I started.
Speaker 3: And I loved that story.
Speaker 2: Then I started telling him about how my first job
Speaker 2: was that I was a paper delivery boy, right, I
Speaker 2: used to go around be a paper boy in my area.
Speaker 2: And all of a sudden we were talking about first jobs,
Speaker 2: and I thought, Wow, this is a really cool question
Speaker 2: to ask people because it shares so much about their
Speaker 2: history and where they started. And so that became one
Speaker 2: of my favorite questions to ask people, is like, what
Speaker 2: was your first job ever? So I'm going to ask you, Daniel,
Speaker 2: what was your What was your first job ever?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I was I was a greeter in
Speaker 1: a hospital. I was like, at the time, I wanted
Speaker 1: to be a doctor, and so I stood by the
Speaker 1: door and kind of I wheeled people in and wheeled
Speaker 1: them out, and you know, new babies and pregnant women
Speaker 1: to wheel them in and wheel out a new baby,
Speaker 1: and it was it was both really fun. It really
Speaker 1: gave you. So everybody comes to the hospital, right, you
Speaker 1: know you however, you know smaller, bigger world is you
Speaker 1: see everybody coming. And so that sort of interaction I
Speaker 1: think sparked something in me as a as a journalist
Speaker 1: and made me know that I never wanted to be
Speaker 1: a doctor.
Speaker 3: What was it?
Speaker 2: What do you think was the biggest lesson you learned
Speaker 2: from that? Like, was there was there a takeaway or
Speaker 2: an inside that you feel really planted the seed in
Speaker 2: you that stayed with you.
Speaker 1: I think banter is underrated, Like I think it really
Speaker 1: the power of banter, the power of like just having
Speaker 1: a little light touch and being able to chat people
Speaker 1: up is one of the strongest powers in the universe.
Speaker 1: And and I think that really showed me that because
Speaker 1: you know, you're taking people and some of them are
Speaker 1: in pain, and some of them are scared, and and
Speaker 1: those little interactions can have a big impact on the space.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what it would have been, I mean, bantering organization
Speaker 2: is you know, I feel like it's at an interesting
Speaker 2: time because everyone's sensitivities have changed. Everyone's like, you know,
Speaker 2: barriers and boundaries have changed as well, for good reasons
Speaker 2: and also some of them, you know, for personal reasons,
Speaker 2: which of course has to be respected and understood. And
Speaker 2: it's it can be quite hard to build a banter
Speaker 2: based culture. I know that when people see me and
Speaker 2: my wife talking, because we're both from London, the word
Speaker 2: banter for us is is literally how our life functions.
Speaker 2: And people see me and my wife in this and
Speaker 2: sometimes be like, are you guys okay? Like you know,
Speaker 2: it's everything okay, and which is like, no, this is banter,
Speaker 2: like this is how we're playful with each other. You know,
Speaker 2: often banter can be misconstrued. How do you build the
Speaker 2: trust first in order to be able to have banter?
Speaker 3: Like what?
Speaker 2: Because I feel sometimes we do it the other way around.
Speaker 2: We think banter builds trust, but often I don't think
Speaker 2: that's true anymore. I think trust allows you to have banter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. In vulnerability,
Speaker 1: allows you to have trust, and I think the fastest
Speaker 1: way to sort of build that is to do things together.
Speaker 1: You know, there's nothing like actually doing something in the
Speaker 1: real world that will create that trust, and there's nothing
Speaker 1: and to do it away from where you're not capturing
Speaker 1: it in words. I think one of the reasons that
Speaker 1: we're so divided and it's such a difficult time is
Speaker 1: that we're relying on people reading, and reading is a
Speaker 1: terrible way to get to know someone. Reading someone's comments
Speaker 1: these words they form in their head and they type
Speaker 1: them out, and then you read them and form some
Speaker 1: idea in your head. It's absolutely a terrible way to
Speaker 1: get to know someone. So doing something in real life
Speaker 1: is by far the most sort of powerful thing that
Speaker 1: you can do, whatever, as big or as small as
Speaker 1: that may be. And also the power of story in
Speaker 1: this situation, like you know, the story you just shared
Speaker 1: about your friend with the painter, the story I just
Speaker 1: shared being comfortable enough, And that's where those icebreakers, I
Speaker 1: think come in, because they they start at a safe
Speaker 1: place where they're going back to what was your favorite
Speaker 1: meal growing up. They started a place where we're free
Speaker 1: of kind of the larger political forces that were that
Speaker 1: we're navigating right now, and you start from there and
Speaker 1: then and then build up.
Speaker 3: I love that, Daniel.
Speaker 2: You've been so generous with your time and so many
Speaker 2: great insights and advice. And at the end of every
Speaker 2: on Purpose episode we do a final five. This is
Speaker 2: a fast five round, which means that every answer has
Speaker 2: to be given in one word or one sentence maximum,
Speaker 2: so you have that little bit of room to play with. So,
Speaker 2: Daniel Coyle, these are your final five?
Speaker 3: Are you ready?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: Bring it awesome? All right?
Speaker 2: So the first question is what's the best advice you
Speaker 2: ever heard or received?
Speaker 1: Look twice, always look twice.
Speaker 3: Oh. I like that. We've never had that on the
Speaker 3: show before. Really really like that.
Speaker 2: Second question, what's the worst advice you've ever received or heard?
Speaker 1: Trust your first insects.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 2: I like that's that's so let's let's dive into that
Speaker 2: a little bit because I think people have a belief that, like,
Speaker 2: your first impression is always your first instinct is always right.
Speaker 3: Why do you think that's such bad advice?
Speaker 1: Well, it's not true. You know when they look at
Speaker 1: when when your studies of whether it's exams or anything
Speaker 1: Adam Grant wrote the great book called Think Again, all
Speaker 1: about this moment. But it were built to do. We're
Speaker 1: built to crave that certainty, right, and that certainty was
Speaker 1: useful for all of history until sort of recently, and
Speaker 1: now that that certainty is what is often dividing us
Speaker 1: and often causing us to make bad decisions. So being
Speaker 1: able to zoom out like that ability today we've got
Speaker 1: you almost think of it as you've got these two
Speaker 1: brains inside your brain. One likes to really grasp things,
Speaker 1: the other is able to zoom out. And so realizing,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, am I using this narrow spotlight right now?
Speaker 1: Or am I looking through my peripheral vision at more?
Speaker 1: And gaining control over that is a really powerful thing
Speaker 1: because it causes you to look twice yep.
Speaker 2: Third question is what is your current purpose? How would
Speaker 2: you define your current purpose?
Speaker 1: Teaching culture? That's that's the teaching the fundamentals. Teaching the
Speaker 1: fundamentals of culture. This is how this is how it works,
Speaker 1: This is how that language works.
Speaker 2: The question number four is what trait of culture or
Speaker 2: leadership are you currently fascinated by that you're currently learning
Speaker 2: about that you haven't yet fully grasped.
Speaker 1: I think the power of group reflection, creating these spaces
Speaker 1: where groups can actually think together.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I don't think we figured that out yet.
Speaker 4: I agree it's crazy because we're hired as individuals, we
Speaker 4: train in school as individuals, we're assessed as individuals, we
Speaker 4: think of ourselves as individuals, and yet all the big
Speaker 4: things in life happen because of groups, and and we
Speaker 4: put no energy or attention to figure out what's that?
Speaker 1: What's that? It's best?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I love that all right.
Speaker 2: Fifth and final question is if you could create one
Speaker 2: law or one habit that everyone in the world had
Speaker 2: to follow, what would it be?
Speaker 1: Be nice?
Speaker 3: Simple? Easy?
Speaker 1: Yeah, really simple? Really, so you have to be nice?
Speaker 3: How do you define nice? How do you define nice?
Speaker 1: I'll edit myself. I'll say be kind. It's it's an
Speaker 1: action with consideration of the other. The kindness is of behavior,
Speaker 1: it's not just a thought. So to actually bring that
Speaker 1: to life, I.
Speaker 3: Love that everyone. This is Daniel Coyle.
Speaker 2: The book is the Culture Playbook, sixty highly effective actions
Speaker 2: to help your group succeed. Highly recommend you get the
Speaker 2: Culture Code and the Culture Playbook. I know I'm going
Speaker 2: to be ordering the Culture playbook straight away, so make
Speaker 2: sure you do that as well. It's just brilliant to
Speaker 2: understand Daniel's ideas and the research and the studies that
Speaker 2: he shares inside the book, but then to have these
Speaker 2: sixty highly effective actions to help you actually take action
Speaker 2: and apply on those. I mean, you couldn't find a
Speaker 2: better combination, to be honest. So I really hope you're
Speaker 2: going to go and grab both copies. Will put the
Speaker 2: links into the podcast section. Daniel, any last words, any
Speaker 2: last thoughts. You've been incredible. I'm so grateful to get
Speaker 2: to meet you. I'm excited to develop our connection and
Speaker 2: relationship more as well. But any final words or final
Speaker 2: thoughts you want to share me too?
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. You're very good at what you do.
Speaker 1: I think you model the sort of connective sensitivity, insight,
Speaker 1: and curiosity that good culture is made of. So thanks
Speaker 1: for letting me be part of it.
Speaker 3: Thank you. That means a lot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, A lot of the questions today were for me.
Speaker 2: A lot of them were things that I'm fascinated by,
Speaker 2: and I left everything else in the book. There is
Speaker 2: so many amazing insights in the book that I didn't
Speaker 2: even dive into today. Everyone because I want you to
Speaker 2: read the book. It's brilliant. So Daniel, thank you so
Speaker 2: much again, have a great, great day, and I really
Speaker 2: appreciate meeting you.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Same here, Jay, look forward to next time.
Speaker 2: We all know that fame is not the same as success,
Speaker 2: and yet society makes it so easy to slip into
Speaker 2: thinking there's no difference between the two. So today I
Speaker 2: want to bring it back to what really matters, doing
Speaker 2: good work, making an impact, feeling for fulfilled. The next
Speaker 2: seven minutes are about your aims in life and how
Speaker 2: to live with purpose. I'm Jay Shaddy. Welcome to the
Speaker 2: Daily Jay. Let's begin by giving attention to our breath
Speaker 2: and getting centered inhaling deeply in and slowly letting it out,
Speaker 2: feeling your body reached towards the sky and fall lightly
Speaker 2: back to Earth, drawing energy from the air and releasing tension.
Speaker 2: Now let me ask you, have you ever heard the
Speaker 2: song California Dreaming by the Mamas and the Pappas. How
Speaker 2: about Good Vibrations by the Beach Boys or I Got
Speaker 2: You Babe by Sonny and Cher. I would sing them
Speaker 2: for you, but I want you to keep listening. Seriously, though,
Speaker 2: if you've ever heard any of these three songs, then
Speaker 2: you're familiar with the work of a legendary group of
Speaker 2: studio musicians known as the Wrecking Crew. Studio musicians are
Speaker 2: contractors who play instruments on albums by other artists. They're
Speaker 2: often exceptionally skilled, and the members of the Wrecking Crew
Speaker 2: were as good as it gets. They recorded hundreds of
Speaker 2: top forty hits in the sixties and seventies, playing with
Speaker 2: all kinds of bands, the Monkeys, the Birds, Frank and
Speaker 2: Nancy Sinatra. Their impact on popular music is hard to fathom. However,
Speaker 2: their work went largely unnoticed by the public. In fact,
Speaker 2: I'd be willing to bet that before today you probably
Speaker 2: hadn't heard of them. And here's why our society venerates
Speaker 2: the frontman. We celebrate the rock god, the CEO, the MVP.
Speaker 2: We idolize famous individuals so much we might believe that
Speaker 2: real success equals stardom, that our effort is meaningless without
Speaker 2: public recognition. But that couldn't be further from the truth.
Speaker 2: Celebrity is not a prerequisite for impact, nor is it
Speaker 2: a necessary ingredient for happiness, purpose or fulfillment. Not to
Speaker 2: say there's anything wrong with fame. It can be quite
Speaker 2: useful when channeled responsibly, and it can come as a
Speaker 2: natural byproduct of creating something meaningful or memorable. But it's
Speaker 2: much more important to focus on doing your best work
Speaker 2: and acknowledging the payoff that comes from within. You should
Speaker 2: take pleasure from knowing that you're doing well rather than
Speaker 2: having other people think you are. Now, I'm not saying
Speaker 2: you don't deserve to be appreciated for your efforts. The
Speaker 2: Wrecking Crew may not have been a household name, but
Speaker 2: in the recording industry they were held in high regard
Speaker 2: and were compensated well for their services. What I'm saying
Speaker 2: is that there's no shame in playing a supporting role
Speaker 2: if that's what you enjoy or that's where you end up.
Speaker 2: In the documentary Twenty Feet from Stardom, accomplished backup singer
Speaker 2: Lisa Fisher says, I reject the notion that the job
Speaker 2: you excel at is somehow not enough to aspire to.
Speaker 2: So I'm giving you permission right here, right now to
Speaker 2: celebrate your integral role, whether it's in the spotlight or not.
Speaker 2: Because you don't have to be a superstar to do
Speaker 2: good work. To make a difference to feel fulfilled and
Speaker 2: to live a life of purpose. And now let's meditate
Speaker 2: on that. Start by getting a little more comfortable wherever
Speaker 2: you are, tuning into yourself and tuning into this moment
Speaker 2: for the next two minutes. See if you can let
Speaker 2: go of judgment and analysis, allowing yourself to sink in.
Speaker 2: Today we're going to connect with some words of acceptance
Speaker 2: and compassion towards yourself and others. You can repeat them
Speaker 2: silently or just take them in. All I need to
Speaker 2: do is love myself. Well, this will be enough. All
Speaker 2: I need to do is love others. Well, this will
Speaker 2: be enough. All I need to do is love my life. Well,
Speaker 2: this will be enough. Let that marinate a bit. All
Speaker 2: I need to do is love myself, well, this will
Speaker 2: be enough. All I need to do is love others, well,
Speaker 2: this will be enough. All I need to do is
Speaker 2: love my life. Well, this will be enough. And now
Speaker 2: let's open this up. I'd like you to reflect on
Speaker 2: what success means to you and whether your definition could
Speaker 2: use a little tweak. How are you currently making an impact?
Speaker 2: How are you moving in the direction of a more
Speaker 2: purposeful life. Hopefully the Daily Jay is helping you head
Speaker 2: in that direction, and I'd love it if you shared
Speaker 2: this program with someone who matters to you. I wish
Speaker 2: you success and happiness in everything you do. I'm grateful
Speaker 2: for you, and I hope to see you again tomorrow