WEBVTT - Eric Fischl 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.000 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:14.880 Thing my guest today. Painter Eric Fischel became known in 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:18.400 the nineteen eighties art scene for work that explores issues 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:21.520 of sexuality and power in what it means to become 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.040 a man. In Bad Boy, which Fishel describes as his 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.680 most famous and notorious painting, there is a naked woman 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.479 lying on a bed. A young boy is standing in 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:34.440 front of her, his hands behind his back, seeming to 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:38.680 be taking something from her purse. The complexity of his 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:43.320 early pieces can be attributed Fishel has acknowledged to his childhood. 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.680 He grew up in the privileged country club culture of 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:50.200 Long Island, to be specific the Port Washington Yacht Club, 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.560 but his mother suffered from depression and alcoholism and committed 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:58.400 suicide when Fishel was twenty two. After decades of living 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.360 in New York City, he and his wife, painter April Gornick, 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:05.440 now live full time in eastern Long Island. In his 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:09.240 recent autobiography, Bad Boy, My Life On and Off the 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:13.000 Canvas Official details his youth the art world, his own 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:17.119 struggles with depression and substance abuse, and his thoughts about 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.959 the creative process. For Eric Fishel, the book challenged him 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:26.200 in unexpected ways. The difficult part of writing it wasn't 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.720 the early stuff where it was about family traumas and 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.520 you know, the sort of dealing with that. That was 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.120 actually the easiest part to write, because I put that 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:39.880 into my paintings and stuff, so I had already kind 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:44.520 of gone through the emotional ramifications. What was difficult was 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:48.160 actually trying to find some perspective in the present moment 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.160 as to what my feelings were, what was going on 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:53.920 in the world around me at that time. I went 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:59.240 through a lot more confused feelings about the present in 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:01.160 the past. I dealt with it so much in the 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.240 work that I I knew exactly what I felt. It 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.120 was just a matter of putting in the words. Eric 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:11.000 Fishel first picked up a paintbrush in college, and experience 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.600 he describes as an awakening. Official was in the first 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.560 undergraduate class at cal Arts, a place that would become 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:21.520 known as much for orgies as conceptual art. It would 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:25.080 be some time before his skill, talent, and voice found 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.840 a home in realism. I started out being trained as 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:32.280 an abstract painter. You know, if you you were going 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:34.720 to be a painter, you should be an abstract painter. 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:38.760 So I tried. What it turned out was that every 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.760 abstract painting I made felt like it was absolutely the 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.200 last painting I could make. Then at some point I 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:50.280 started to work with figures and with narrative and language 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.920 and stuff like that, and it flowed. That's when I 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:55.959 realized I was now doing the work that I was 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.440 supposed to do, that that I was built for. And 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:01.960 then it was a matter of getting better at it 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:06.080 and you know, perfecting it, honing it, etcetera. And what 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.360 was among the first things that that led you to that, Like, 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:10.720 what was the story? What was the narrative? You thought, 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.760 I want to put that on canvis somehow? It was 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.079 a process actually, and the process was that I um. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:22.280 I found this transparent paper called glass seeing paper. It's 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:24.800 this kind of paper they used to put chocolates in 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:28.400 and stuff. It accepts oil paint beautifully. That is that 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.840 the brush feels gray gliding across the slick surface. If 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.040 you make a mistake, you wipe it off. Very little 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:37.560 shows of that, you know, and it's got this transparency. 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.720 So I would start with an image a chair, and 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:43.839 I would paint a chair on this paper and I'd 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:45.960 stick it on the wall, and then I would sit 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.760 and look at and I'd say, Okay, where is this chair? 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:51.240 Is it in a you know, the living room, is 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.440 it in the dining room? Is there anyone sitting in 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.880 the chair? And as I as I was thinking that, 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.440 I go get another transparent piece of paper, relay it 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.400 on top, and say, Okay, it's a person and they're 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:06.840 sitting this way in the chair. Now that didn't work, 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.520 Take that off, get another one, put that on. Okay, 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.120 they're actually standing next to the chair. So I would 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.640 paint that. I would just talk to myself and as 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:17.960 I did, I would sort of create these images, and 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:24.080 eventually a scene would emerge that seemed to resonate for me, 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.920 that had some kind of memory to it, some kind 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:32.400 of feeling in it, that was expressing something about relationships 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:39.159 between people, families, inter family relationships, people and objects that 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.400 they surround themselves with. And then you know, eventually I 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.000 decided I wanted to actually bring that into the painting 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:50.440 world and with color and canvas and stuff like that, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.960 and more detail, more specific detail. So it evolved into 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:57.960 the work that I do. Now there's a description in 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:00.560 the book about how with a as times you were 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:02.760 comfortable being alone when you have those tools in the 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.240 material in front of you. Which I found fascinating was 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.640 the river. I thought of you doing something else creatively. 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:10.760 Music was out of the question because I haven't toned 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.240 deaf years and there no way I could do that. 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:20.520 I was in a a play in eighth grade in 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:24.320 which it was called It's Cold and Them Thar Hills, 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:30.479 and I played this hillbilly named Zeke, who didn't speak 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.960 through the entire play, but was on stage the entire 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:36.760 time until the very end, when I had this like 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.239 big speech where I proclaimed my love for this person 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.919 who didn't know I was even present. You get the 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.280 girl and I get the girl. But it was like 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.279 spending a lot of time. Kind of being present and 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:54.680 absent at the same time. Was actually a profound experience 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:58.200 for me, but it it didn't lead to me wanting 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.000 to do with the next play or to do that. 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:05.479 And I've actually become much more of a public person 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:11.320 over the years. I was much more reticent, much more 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:17.120 behind my eyes, which is really where the painter comes from. 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.719 And it was a lot easier for me to in 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:26.680 private have my thoughts and feelings and you know, sort 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:30.840 of express them before anyone ever saw them. And so 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.400 I could actually control the form of expression before it 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:42.279 entered the world gave art and yes, exactly exactly. But 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:47.800 my sensibility is very much I think, consistent with you know, 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:54.400 an an actor's sensibility and a director's sensibility, and in that, 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:58.839 in that sense of you know, understanding what a dramatic 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:03.760 moment actually is, where where meaning is present, and how 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:07.479 it comes through not just a language, but it comes 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.880 through a body language, it comes through a light source, 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:15.720 it comes through a a clearly defined space, and how 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:20.040 one sort of negotiates that space. And those are the 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.360 things that I'm most compelled with and and in fact, 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:28.400 my my greatest pleasure is when people in the dramatic 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.840 arts connect to my work because I feel like, you know, 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.240 they get it in a way that that you know, 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:37.960 people other painters don't. Necessarily, you do expect the images 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.040 at some point to start moving, to move yeah, or 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:45.280 speaking yeah. And you know, I I my work is 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:50.800 based on or that as a source material photographs. What 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:56.920 photography showed me, because it slices life so thinly, it 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.360 showed me that everybody is in constant motion, and that 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:06.840 everybody is is off balance, and that that animates the scene. 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:09.640 You know that. It's one of the reasons I don't 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:13.000 actually bring models into the studio and have them posed 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:17.080 for me, because they become a static pose when what 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:21.040 I'm looking for is something that triggers a feeling or 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:25.560 a memory or a provocation of some kind. And I 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:27.880 find that where you look at a photograph that you 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:32.080 took of somebody that is, you know, just slightly turning, 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.679 some shifting weight in their body, doing something like that, 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:39.920 that that really sets those questions. What I love when 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.319 I look at photographs, when I look at paintings, when 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.640 I look at your paintings, when I look at films, 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:47.920 I like and the visual because I went to an 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:49.800 acting school where they said, watch the movie with the 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.640 sound off, and if you can't convey something, if the 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.200 picture isn't telling the story sixties seventy five percent of 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:00.880 the time, then that the movies that wrong. Yeah, I mean, 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:05.640 you know, the difference between film and theater and painting 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.000 is that in both film and theater, you build an 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.960 emotional sort of construct, You build a narrative construct over 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:17.600 a set period of time with various scenes that lead 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:21.280 to it. With painting, you're you know, you're trying to 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:26.000 shrink it down into this one moment that when you 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:30.000 stop that action is when it actually begins to spin 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.920 the mood, spin the moment, spin the thoughts and projections 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.160 and stuff. So it's about trying to find, Okay, where 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:40.199 do I stop the action? Right for me, you stop 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:45.200 it at something just before something happens, or just right 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.599 after something happens. That if you if you stop it 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.080 in the middle of something happened, what you end up 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:54.480 with is is a kind of confusion that doesn't take 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:59.840 you anywhere. But if you stop before the audience rushes 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.079 in to complete it, they know where it's going now 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:05.559 and that person is doing this and that's going to 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.840 happen because they just blah blah blah. Or if right 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.880 after dealing with the emotional aftermath of that, then it's 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.040 then the the audience again rushes in with the memory 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:22.400 of those feelings that they associate with what just happened. Uh. 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:24.760 That I find to be the real challenge and the 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.440 fun part of it as well. You know a painter, 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:29.920 and this is my view, this is not I'm not 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:31.800 saying this is a commonly health view, but this is 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:33.800 my view, and that is the work I do. A 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.520 It requires an audience and also somebody giving you a role, 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:41.680 right and someone and exactly someone unless you're self producing. 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.240 But for you, my view of it is I'd sit 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:46.840 there with and look at painters and I think, God, 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:48.599 that much I envy them that you sit in a 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:52.240 room and you're totally self generating, and you do exactly 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:54.000 what you want to do, and then you send it 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.280 out into the world and say if you like it, great, 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.280 If you don't, I really don't give a shit. You know, 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.319 it's completely un self conscious in that way, unless you're 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:06.839 doing a commission. Do you feel that is a protective 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.480 is a response? I think it's like, God, I hope 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:15.120 they liked that. Oh sure, yeah, but you know you've 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:19.079 already done it. You accept that it may fall short 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:23.160 of your hope and expectations. But I don't. I don't 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:27.400 believe any painters sitting there pretending that they only do 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.760 the work for themselves and stuff. They're they're they're seeking 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:34.480 some kind of resonance, some some response. Yeah, have you 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.120 have you ever done a painting and you were mistaken meaning, 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.360 you did a painting. And I'm being very melodramatic here, 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:41.720 but you did a painting and you were done. Even 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.760 the said, good God, official, you've done it. There, it 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.800 is there, you have it. And then and the painting 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.160 did not succeed in one term, and then other times 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:53.080 you sat there and said the opposite, this is a 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:54.360 piece of crap, and it was one of your most 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:59.080 successful has that happened, not in the extreme, but I've 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:03.240 certainly done paintings that I thought were better than they 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:08.000 were received. And I've certainly had the experience where I've 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.079 seen paintings that I didn't think were so good when 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.800 I did them and see them ten years later and go, 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:19.080 you know, that, actually isn't that bad. So I don't know, 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.840 but this is a little off the subject, but more 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:27.080 back to sort of acting and painting. I did a 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:31.760 project once where actually used actors. I was given a house, 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:36.960 Miss Vandorot House and craigfelt Germany to do some kind 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:42.280 of interaction with the house. I never worked with actors before, 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.240 and so I went to friends who were in the business, 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:51.960 you know, writers, playwrights, screenwriters, whatever, directors to give me 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.840 some ideas that like how do you talk to an actor? 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.840 What gets them going? Etcetera? Because I had no clue 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.200 and the simple list advice came back from Mike Nichols, 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.280 who said, I'll give them problems. They love problems. And 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.440 I said, what the hell is a problem? They said, oh, 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.480 you know, she wants to borrow five d bucks from him, 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.200 but you won't tell him why. We just give him that, 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.640 you'll see, right. I was like, okay, So I went 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.840 into this thing with these two actors who happened to 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.880 be German. They understood English, but they performed, and you know, 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.160 they did whatever they did. And for him to choose, 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.720 I know, and that's strange. And I was taking still 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:38.959 photographs too. I was just clicking snapshots. I wasn't recording it. 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.400 I didn't think I cared about, you know, the dialogue. 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:47.480 I didn't care about the you know sound it said, whatever, 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.440 you know. The all I wanted were these sort of 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:55.920 still moments. What blew my mind was that I would 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.960 give him a problem. And I was surprised at how 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:02.800 fast I could tell that the problem I gave him 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:06.800 wasn't any good. They couldn't get animated and they were 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.840 just like it wasn't achieving the desire to feel they 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.000 were They were just dead. It was like nothing. Their 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.280 body couldn't even move hardly. So and and at the 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:17.480 same time, when I gave him something they could really 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.520 bite their teeth into. For example, well I did a 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:23.520 sleep with you, but just to break up with their 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:29.280 boyfriend first. The thing is the female actress had like 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.680 zero interest in him, but she was very professional. And 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:36.920 so we're going to do the bedroom stuff. And I 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:41.640 set up some stuff in there, and it really wasn't working. 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.640 It was saying, you know, there was something. They were 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.280 dressed in evening clothes. It was late to come home. 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.400 You know, he's drunk. She's hoping that, you know, they 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:57.240 could have some sex. Maybe he's you know what, it 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:01.440 can't kind of get it together. It was lame. So 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.240 he gets up and he goes off to the bathroom 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.480 or something like that. And so I say to her, look, 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:11.760 take off your clothes and get into bed. You're a 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:16.240 wild animal. Whatever you do, don't let him in the bed. Now. 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:20.000 This bed that I had chosen was like a modernist 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:24.120 bed that had this igloe of a mosquito netting over it, 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.440 so it made like a cocoon or something like that 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:29.320 a tent. So I said, whatever you do, don't let 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.840 him in the bed, right, your wild animal. All of 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.840 a sudden, she like curls up into this incredible kind 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.080 of creature and then like pushes herself against the end 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.720 of the wall and and and it's like just sitting 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.360 there waiting, right, And he comes back into the room 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:48.680 and now he sees her in the bed. She's naked. 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.720 It's like, we're getting somewhere. We're getting somewhere, right, And 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:57.960 he takes his bathrobe off and walks over to the 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:00.760 net and he starts to lift it up, and she 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:05.280 comes flying across the bed one leap and smashes him 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:09.840 in the face, right, And he's like whoa. And then 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:14.480 you got goes, whoa, this could be fun. I like 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.400 to win be challenge. And I'm like going, oh no, 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:21.920 and you've got good images. You got great images also 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.560 that yeah. Yeah, And they did a whole dancer on 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:26.560 getting in and out of the bed, and when he 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.280 finally got in, she slipped out, and you know it 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:33.480 reverse the roles and stuff, and that was that. But 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:40.320 now it with people that you photograph, manipulate, paint, whatever, 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:42.560 verb you want to use for the work you do 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.880 and the stages of the work you do. How much 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.800 would you say you're a view of people because because 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.120 I think, like most men, we have this in common, 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:54.600 which is this kind of relationship of your mother. And 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:56.880 if you have a good relationship with your mother, let's 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.240 say you want to replicate that a terrible relationship with mother. 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:01.720 Do you want to find someone who's the opposite of 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.040 your mother, or you want to restage the drama with 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.480 your mother? As my as a therapist, one said to me, 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:09.720 we want to restage that in our lives. And you 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:13.679 get all the good lines now which which eluded you 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.400 in your in your youth. So I think all art 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.920 expression is in some way trying to correct a lot 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.200 of stuff, and you put some clarity to it, some 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.959 order to it make it makes sense. You know, how 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:31.399 would you think that you're you? You're very candid about 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.680 your mother, who was obviously very ill. You know, she's 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:37.760 a very sick woman and that plays out on her behavior. Um, 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.720 she wasn't a mean spirited woman, she was she was 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:46.439 just completely overwhelmed. How would you say that? Colored? Because 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.600 count to three when you read the book and your 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.719 bell bottoms and hate Ashbury and you're into a very 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:54.960 kind of summer of love sixty six. I thin because 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.040 when you head out to the West Coast and you're 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:58.760 in the thick of it, how do you think, what 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:00.639 did you carry out there with few in terms of 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.879 your idea about women, what you wanted or because when 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:06.360 I get from the bookcase, you're someone who was kind 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:08.920 of raised not to ask for anything. Well, I had, 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:14.840 you know, sort of two kinds of relationships with women. 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.440 One one was I was attracted to women that were 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:23.879 absolutely bad for me. They opened up that void, you know, 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:29.160 just emptiness that in a way that was yeah, and 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:31.560 you know, it was full of passion and it was 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.080 full of you know this, you know, profound need and 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.800 stuff like that was very emotional and very short lived. 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.199 And then the other kind of woman was one where 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:49.680 you know, they were really stable, reliable and reliable and available. Yeah, 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:56.000 and I married them. You're married to April. I married 0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:01.960 I was married before and stable, stable enough, Yeah, but 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:05.879 then yeah, I married April and you know for the 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.600 last thirty some id years. Yeah. Did your work change 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.880 in sync with your attitude towards love and relationships? It 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:18.560 did with time you know, the early relationship with April, 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:22.359 for example, we were both young artists, really trying to 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:27.640 find our voices, trying to understand who we were. I 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:33.040 was dealing with the wounds of the past as opposed 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:37.640 to the you know, the present with her. So it 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:42.240 wasn't apparent then other than the stability of our relationship 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:47.000 gave me the courage to look into these other Well, 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:53.560 you know, she's incredibly bright and incredibly disciplined, and um, 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.000 she she's somebody that can multitask in a in an 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:01.000 emotional way. Do you have children now? Do you think 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.560 that that was partly because of what your childhood? I 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:05.840 think we're both April and I had a lot very 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:14.639 traumatic things that passed that made that that seemed dangerous. 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.000 Do you regret having not done that? There was you 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:23.800 have a very warm, humanistic your personality. Yeah, there there 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.399 was a point at which I felt like I could 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:32.359 handle having kids, but April wasn't there yet. And the 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:35.560 one thing I wasn't gonna do was insist that we 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.879 do it my way, because I knew what that she 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:41.760 was only going to indulge you so far. Yeah, and 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:43.920 and or or it was going to break her down 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.280 in a way that I couldn't bear. So you know 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:52.720 it passed. Now. In the book your father, he went 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:54.600 that route that a lot of dads go, which is 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:56.600 he just wants to give you the safe advice. Yeah, 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:58.560 his parental duty was to say to you, you know, 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:00.919 let's be reasonable now, and he told you to go 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.800 to get a business. Did your father live to see 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.600 you become a great success? He did? Yeah, my my 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:10.480 mother didn't. My father did he. He actually didn't understand 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.879 what success was in art anyway, that he'd kind of 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:21.440 given up by then, right, so understanding me, yeah, exactly. 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.040 She was a very very kind of icy relationship with her. 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:28.119 It was, it was volatile and complicated. But you know, 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:30.800 he he really didn't know anything about art, so he 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.359 didn't really know anything about what success in art was. 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:40.320 And and back then, you know, success and fortune were 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:42.680 not connected to each other in the art world. You 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:47.760 you could be highly successful, you know, shown in museums 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:51.240 around the world, and and still be doing a teaching 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:55.199 job or driving a taxi or something to do it. 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:59.359 So he was perplexed that I would even be in 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:05.000 a field in which there wasn't a monetary reward necessarily, right, 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:11.320 but at some point he uh started to see my 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.399 name in print, and that was something that he understood 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:19.200 as success. You know, all of a sudden local newspaper 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.719 or you know, an art magazine or something. There there's 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:27.560 his son, right, And then he really flipped from from 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:32.240 sort of disengagement to the proud parent who you know 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:34.680 we did. We'd go into a grocery store and at 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.560 the checkout, cutry guard, you know who this is my son. 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:40.280 This is the artist that he take the clipping out 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:43.720 of his wallety exactly. This is from the New York Times. 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:53.120 That's E I S F I S h L. Well, 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:57.240 you know he uh he became an artist at the 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:03.000 end of his life as well. He discovered collage and 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:06.760 it took him a while after he retired to find 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:08.440 He tried other things, and then all of a sudden 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:11.960 he found himself like sitting in his office at home 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:17.199 cutting pictures out and gluing them together. And and you know, 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:20.920 he's he was not a schooled artist, but he had 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:23.159 an eye and he had a kind of liveliness to 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:30.440 these collages that he made that were very expressive. And 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:34.399 by the time he died, I had realized that he 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:37.800 and I could never talk to each other, but we 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:44.119 just kept missing, you know, but we understood each other visually, 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:47.199 and so he would send me his collages and I 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:51.280 knew exactly what he was thinking about, where he was at, 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:54.680 how he was feeling. You know, he was really communicating 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:59.560 through these visual images, and he showed me that he 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:04.720 was had been using my paintings to understand what had 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:08.040 happened in our lives with with my mother and the 0:24:08.080 --> 0:24:12.479 whole family dynamic. And so we actually were both visual 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:16.240 people who understood what that meant to communicate visually to 0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:19.359 each other. So it was it was deeply rewarding to 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:21.800 me ultimately to but it took me a while to 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:24.520 understand that they were talked to about your paintings and 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:27.440 his view of your paintings. Well, at first, I mean 0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:30.679 he didn't. He talked to me about success. You know, 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:33.480 you could see and be enthusiastic for this show and 0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:38.440 that show, etcetera, etcetera. But there was this uh thing 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:41.880 that happened. There was I think, um, you know, really 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:44.000 blew my mind, which was that I had done a 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:48.679 painting UM called a Woman Possessed, and it was a 0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:53.879 painting of a woman outside the suburban home, drunk, passed 0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:57.920