1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Thing my guest today. Painter Eric Fischel became known in 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties art scene for work that explores issues 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: of sexuality and power in what it means to become 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: a man. In Bad Boy, which Fishel describes as his 6 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: most famous and notorious painting, there is a naked woman 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: lying on a bed. A young boy is standing in 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: front of her, his hands behind his back, seeming to 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: be taking something from her purse. The complexity of his 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: early pieces can be attributed Fishel has acknowledged to his childhood. 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: He grew up in the privileged country club culture of 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: Long Island, to be specific the Port Washington Yacht Club, 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: but his mother suffered from depression and alcoholism and committed 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: suicide when Fishel was twenty two. After decades of living 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: in New York City, he and his wife, painter April Gornick, 16 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: now live full time in eastern Long Island. In his 17 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: recent autobiography, Bad Boy, My Life On and Off the 18 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: Canvas Official details his youth the art world, his own 19 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: struggles with depression and substance abuse, and his thoughts about 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: the creative process. For Eric Fishel, the book challenged him 21 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: in unexpected ways. The difficult part of writing it wasn't 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: the early stuff where it was about family traumas and 23 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, the sort of dealing with that. That was 24 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: actually the easiest part to write, because I put that 25 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: into my paintings and stuff, so I had already kind 26 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: of gone through the emotional ramifications. What was difficult was 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: actually trying to find some perspective in the present moment 28 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: as to what my feelings were, what was going on 29 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: in the world around me at that time. I went 30 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: through a lot more confused feelings about the present in 31 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: the past. I dealt with it so much in the 32 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: work that I I knew exactly what I felt. It 33 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: was just a matter of putting in the words. Eric 34 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: Fishel first picked up a paintbrush in college, and experience 35 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: he describes as an awakening. Official was in the first 36 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: undergraduate class at cal Arts, a place that would become 37 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: known as much for orgies as conceptual art. It would 38 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: be some time before his skill, talent, and voice found 39 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: a home in realism. I started out being trained as 40 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: an abstract painter. You know, if you you were going 41 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: to be a painter, you should be an abstract painter. 42 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: So I tried. What it turned out was that every 43 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: abstract painting I made felt like it was absolutely the 44 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: last painting I could make. Then at some point I 45 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: started to work with figures and with narrative and language 46 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and it flowed. That's when I 47 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: realized I was now doing the work that I was 48 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: supposed to do, that that I was built for. And 49 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: then it was a matter of getting better at it 50 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: and you know, perfecting it, honing it, etcetera. And what 51 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: was among the first things that that led you to that, Like, 52 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: what was the story? What was the narrative? You thought, 53 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: I want to put that on canvis somehow? It was 54 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: a process actually, and the process was that I um. 55 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: I found this transparent paper called glass seeing paper. It's 56 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: this kind of paper they used to put chocolates in 57 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: and stuff. It accepts oil paint beautifully. That is that 58 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: the brush feels gray gliding across the slick surface. If 59 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: you make a mistake, you wipe it off. Very little 60 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: shows of that, you know, and it's got this transparency. 61 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: So I would start with an image a chair, and 62 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,839 Speaker 1: I would paint a chair on this paper and I'd 63 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: stick it on the wall, and then I would sit 64 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: and look at and I'd say, Okay, where is this chair? 65 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: Is it in a you know, the living room, is 66 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: it in the dining room? Is there anyone sitting in 67 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: the chair? And as I as I was thinking that, 68 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: I go get another transparent piece of paper, relay it 69 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: on top, and say, Okay, it's a person and they're 70 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: sitting this way in the chair. Now that didn't work, 71 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: Take that off, get another one, put that on. Okay, 72 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: they're actually standing next to the chair. So I would 73 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: paint that. I would just talk to myself and as 74 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: I did, I would sort of create these images, and 75 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: eventually a scene would emerge that seemed to resonate for me, 76 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: that had some kind of memory to it, some kind 77 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: of feeling in it, that was expressing something about relationships 78 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: between people, families, inter family relationships, people and objects that 79 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: they surround themselves with. And then you know, eventually I 80 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: decided I wanted to actually bring that into the painting 81 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: world and with color and canvas and stuff like that, 82 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: and more detail, more specific detail. So it evolved into 83 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: the work that I do. Now there's a description in 84 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: the book about how with a as times you were 85 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: comfortable being alone when you have those tools in the 86 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: material in front of you. Which I found fascinating was 87 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: the river. I thought of you doing something else creatively. 88 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: Music was out of the question because I haven't toned 89 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: deaf years and there no way I could do that. 90 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: I was in a a play in eighth grade in 91 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: which it was called It's Cold and Them Thar Hills, 92 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: and I played this hillbilly named Zeke, who didn't speak 93 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: through the entire play, but was on stage the entire 94 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: time until the very end, when I had this like 95 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,239 Speaker 1: big speech where I proclaimed my love for this person 96 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: who didn't know I was even present. You get the 97 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: girl and I get the girl. But it was like 98 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: spending a lot of time. Kind of being present and 99 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: absent at the same time. Was actually a profound experience 100 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: for me, but it it didn't lead to me wanting 101 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: to do with the next play or to do that. 102 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: And I've actually become much more of a public person 103 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: over the years. I was much more reticent, much more 104 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: behind my eyes, which is really where the painter comes from. 105 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: And it was a lot easier for me to in 106 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: private have my thoughts and feelings and you know, sort 107 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: of express them before anyone ever saw them. And so 108 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: I could actually control the form of expression before it 109 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: entered the world gave art and yes, exactly exactly. But 110 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: my sensibility is very much I think, consistent with you know, 111 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: an an actor's sensibility and a director's sensibility, and in that, 112 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: in that sense of you know, understanding what a dramatic 113 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: moment actually is, where where meaning is present, and how 114 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: it comes through not just a language, but it comes 115 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: through a body language, it comes through a light source, 116 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: it comes through a a clearly defined space, and how 117 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: one sort of negotiates that space. And those are the 118 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: things that I'm most compelled with and and in fact, 119 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: my my greatest pleasure is when people in the dramatic 120 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: arts connect to my work because I feel like, you know, 121 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: they get it in a way that that you know, 122 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: people other painters don't. Necessarily, you do expect the images 123 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: at some point to start moving, to move yeah, or 124 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: speaking yeah. And you know, I I my work is 125 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: based on or that as a source material photographs. What 126 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: photography showed me, because it slices life so thinly, it 127 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: showed me that everybody is in constant motion, and that 128 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: everybody is is off balance, and that that animates the scene. 129 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: You know that. It's one of the reasons I don't 130 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: actually bring models into the studio and have them posed 131 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: for me, because they become a static pose when what 132 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: I'm looking for is something that triggers a feeling or 133 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: a memory or a provocation of some kind. And I 134 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: find that where you look at a photograph that you 135 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: took of somebody that is, you know, just slightly turning, 136 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: some shifting weight in their body, doing something like that, 137 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: that that really sets those questions. What I love when 138 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: I look at photographs, when I look at paintings, when 139 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: I look at your paintings, when I look at films, 140 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: I like and the visual because I went to an 141 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: acting school where they said, watch the movie with the 142 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: sound off, and if you can't convey something, if the 143 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: picture isn't telling the story sixties seventy five percent of 144 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: the time, then that the movies that wrong. Yeah, I mean, 145 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: you know, the difference between film and theater and painting 146 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: is that in both film and theater, you build an 147 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: emotional sort of construct, You build a narrative construct over 148 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: a set period of time with various scenes that lead 149 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: to it. With painting, you're you know, you're trying to 150 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: shrink it down into this one moment that when you 151 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: stop that action is when it actually begins to spin 152 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: the mood, spin the moment, spin the thoughts and projections 153 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: and stuff. So it's about trying to find, Okay, where 154 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: do I stop the action? Right for me, you stop 155 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: it at something just before something happens, or just right 156 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,599 Speaker 1: after something happens. That if you if you stop it 157 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: in the middle of something happened, what you end up 158 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: with is is a kind of confusion that doesn't take 159 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: you anywhere. But if you stop before the audience rushes 160 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 1: in to complete it, they know where it's going now 161 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: and that person is doing this and that's going to 162 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: happen because they just blah blah blah. Or if right 163 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: after dealing with the emotional aftermath of that, then it's 164 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: then the the audience again rushes in with the memory 165 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: of those feelings that they associate with what just happened. Uh. 166 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: That I find to be the real challenge and the 167 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: fun part of it as well. You know a painter, 168 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: and this is my view, this is not I'm not 169 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: saying this is a commonly health view, but this is 170 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: my view, and that is the work I do. A 171 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: It requires an audience and also somebody giving you a role, 172 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: right and someone and exactly someone unless you're self producing. 173 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: But for you, my view of it is I'd sit 174 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: there with and look at painters and I think, God, 175 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:48,599 Speaker 1: that much I envy them that you sit in a 176 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: room and you're totally self generating, and you do exactly 177 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: what you want to do, and then you send it 178 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: out into the world and say if you like it, great, 179 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: If you don't, I really don't give a shit. You know, 180 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 1: it's completely un self conscious in that way, unless you're 181 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 1: doing a commission. Do you feel that is a protective 182 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: is a response? I think it's like, God, I hope 183 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: they liked that. Oh sure, yeah, but you know you've 184 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 1: already done it. You accept that it may fall short 185 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: of your hope and expectations. But I don't. I don't 186 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: believe any painters sitting there pretending that they only do 187 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: the work for themselves and stuff. They're they're they're seeking 188 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: some kind of resonance, some some response. Yeah, have you 189 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: have you ever done a painting and you were mistaken meaning, 190 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: you did a painting. And I'm being very melodramatic here, 191 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: but you did a painting and you were done. Even 192 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: the said, good God, official, you've done it. There, it 193 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: is there, you have it. And then and the painting 194 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: did not succeed in one term, and then other times 195 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: you sat there and said the opposite, this is a 196 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: piece of crap, and it was one of your most 197 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: successful has that happened, not in the extreme, but I've 198 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: certainly done paintings that I thought were better than they 199 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: were received. And I've certainly had the experience where I've 200 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 1: seen paintings that I didn't think were so good when 201 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: I did them and see them ten years later and go, 202 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: you know, that, actually isn't that bad. So I don't know, 203 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: but this is a little off the subject, but more 204 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: back to sort of acting and painting. I did a 205 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: project once where actually used actors. I was given a house, 206 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: Miss Vandorot House and craigfelt Germany to do some kind 207 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: of interaction with the house. I never worked with actors before, 208 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: and so I went to friends who were in the business, 209 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: you know, writers, playwrights, screenwriters, whatever, directors to give me 210 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: some ideas that like how do you talk to an actor? 211 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: What gets them going? Etcetera? Because I had no clue 212 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: and the simple list advice came back from Mike Nichols, 213 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: who said, I'll give them problems. They love problems. And 214 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: I said, what the hell is a problem? They said, oh, 215 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: you know, she wants to borrow five d bucks from him, 216 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: but you won't tell him why. We just give him that, 217 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: you'll see, right. I was like, okay, So I went 218 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: into this thing with these two actors who happened to 219 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: be German. They understood English, but they performed, and you know, 220 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: they did whatever they did. And for him to choose, 221 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: I know, and that's strange. And I was taking still 222 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 1: photographs too. I was just clicking snapshots. I wasn't recording it. 223 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: I didn't think I cared about, you know, the dialogue. 224 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: I didn't care about the you know sound it said, whatever, 225 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: you know. The all I wanted were these sort of 226 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: still moments. What blew my mind was that I would 227 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: give him a problem. And I was surprised at how 228 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: fast I could tell that the problem I gave him 229 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: wasn't any good. They couldn't get animated and they were 230 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: just like it wasn't achieving the desire to feel they 231 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: were They were just dead. It was like nothing. Their 232 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: body couldn't even move hardly. So and and at the 233 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: same time, when I gave him something they could really 234 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: bite their teeth into. For example, well I did a 235 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: sleep with you, but just to break up with their 236 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: boyfriend first. The thing is the female actress had like 237 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: zero interest in him, but she was very professional. And 238 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: so we're going to do the bedroom stuff. And I 239 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: set up some stuff in there, and it really wasn't working. 240 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: It was saying, you know, there was something. They were 241 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: dressed in evening clothes. It was late to come home. 242 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: You know, he's drunk. She's hoping that, you know, they 243 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: could have some sex. Maybe he's you know what, it 244 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: can't kind of get it together. It was lame. So 245 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: he gets up and he goes off to the bathroom 246 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: or something like that. And so I say to her, look, 247 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: take off your clothes and get into bed. You're a 248 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: wild animal. Whatever you do, don't let him in the bed. Now. 249 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: This bed that I had chosen was like a modernist 250 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: bed that had this igloe of a mosquito netting over it, 251 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: so it made like a cocoon or something like that 252 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: a tent. So I said, whatever you do, don't let 253 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: him in the bed, right, your wild animal. All of 254 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: a sudden, she like curls up into this incredible kind 255 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: of creature and then like pushes herself against the end 256 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: of the wall and and and it's like just sitting 257 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: there waiting, right, And he comes back into the room 258 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: and now he sees her in the bed. She's naked. 259 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: It's like, we're getting somewhere. We're getting somewhere, right, And 260 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: he takes his bathrobe off and walks over to the 261 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: net and he starts to lift it up, and she 262 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: comes flying across the bed one leap and smashes him 263 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: in the face, right, And he's like whoa. And then 264 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: you got goes, whoa, this could be fun. I like 265 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: to win be challenge. And I'm like going, oh no, 266 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: and you've got good images. You got great images also 267 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: that yeah. Yeah, And they did a whole dancer on 268 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: getting in and out of the bed, and when he 269 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: finally got in, she slipped out, and you know it 270 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: reverse the roles and stuff, and that was that. But 271 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: now it with people that you photograph, manipulate, paint, whatever, 272 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: verb you want to use for the work you do 273 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: and the stages of the work you do. How much 274 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: would you say you're a view of people because because 275 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: I think, like most men, we have this in common, 276 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: which is this kind of relationship of your mother. And 277 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: if you have a good relationship with your mother, let's 278 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: say you want to replicate that a terrible relationship with mother. 279 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: Do you want to find someone who's the opposite of 280 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: your mother, or you want to restage the drama with 281 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: your mother? As my as a therapist, one said to me, 282 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: we want to restage that in our lives. And you 283 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: get all the good lines now which which eluded you 284 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: in your in your youth. So I think all art 285 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: expression is in some way trying to correct a lot 286 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: of stuff, and you put some clarity to it, some 287 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,959 Speaker 1: order to it make it makes sense. You know, how 288 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: would you think that you're you? You're very candid about 289 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: your mother, who was obviously very ill. You know, she's 290 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: a very sick woman and that plays out on her behavior. Um, 291 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: she wasn't a mean spirited woman, she was she was 292 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: just completely overwhelmed. How would you say that? Colored? Because 293 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: count to three when you read the book and your 294 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,719 Speaker 1: bell bottoms and hate Ashbury and you're into a very 295 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: kind of summer of love sixty six. I thin because 296 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: when you head out to the West Coast and you're 297 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: in the thick of it, how do you think, what 298 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: did you carry out there with few in terms of 299 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: your idea about women, what you wanted or because when 300 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 1: I get from the bookcase, you're someone who was kind 301 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: of raised not to ask for anything. Well, I had, 302 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, sort of two kinds of relationships with women. 303 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: One one was I was attracted to women that were 304 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: absolutely bad for me. They opened up that void, you know, 305 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: just emptiness that in a way that was yeah, and 306 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, it was full of passion and it was 307 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: full of you know this, you know, profound need and 308 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: stuff like that was very emotional and very short lived. 309 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: And then the other kind of woman was one where 310 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: you know, they were really stable, reliable and reliable and available. Yeah, 311 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: and I married them. You're married to April. I married 312 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: I was married before and stable, stable enough, Yeah, but 313 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: then yeah, I married April and you know for the 314 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: last thirty some id years. Yeah. Did your work change 315 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: in sync with your attitude towards love and relationships? It 316 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: did with time you know, the early relationship with April, 317 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: for example, we were both young artists, really trying to 318 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: find our voices, trying to understand who we were. I 319 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: was dealing with the wounds of the past as opposed 320 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: to the you know, the present with her. So it 321 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: wasn't apparent then other than the stability of our relationship 322 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: gave me the courage to look into these other Well, 323 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: you know, she's incredibly bright and incredibly disciplined, and um, 324 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: she she's somebody that can multitask in a in an 325 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: emotional way. Do you have children now? Do you think 326 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: that that was partly because of what your childhood? I 327 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: think we're both April and I had a lot very 328 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: traumatic things that passed that made that that seemed dangerous. 329 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: Do you regret having not done that? There was you 330 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: have a very warm, humanistic your personality. Yeah, there there 331 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: was a point at which I felt like I could 332 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: handle having kids, but April wasn't there yet. And the 333 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: one thing I wasn't gonna do was insist that we 334 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: do it my way, because I knew what that she 335 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: was only going to indulge you so far. Yeah, and 336 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: and or or it was going to break her down 337 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: in a way that I couldn't bear. So you know 338 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: it passed. Now. In the book your father, he went 339 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: that route that a lot of dads go, which is 340 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: he just wants to give you the safe advice. Yeah, 341 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: his parental duty was to say to you, you know, 342 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: let's be reasonable now, and he told you to go 343 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: to get a business. Did your father live to see 344 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: you become a great success? He did? Yeah, my my 345 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: mother didn't. My father did he. He actually didn't understand 346 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: what success was in art anyway, that he'd kind of 347 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: given up by then, right, so understanding me, yeah, exactly. 348 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: She was a very very kind of icy relationship with her. 349 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: It was, it was volatile and complicated. But you know, 350 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: he he really didn't know anything about art, so he 351 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: didn't really know anything about what success in art was. 352 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: And and back then, you know, success and fortune were 353 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: not connected to each other in the art world. You 354 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: you could be highly successful, you know, shown in museums 355 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: around the world, and and still be doing a teaching 356 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: job or driving a taxi or something to do it. 357 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: So he was perplexed that I would even be in 358 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: a field in which there wasn't a monetary reward necessarily, right, 359 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: but at some point he uh started to see my 360 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: name in print, and that was something that he understood 361 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: as success. You know, all of a sudden local newspaper 362 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,719 Speaker 1: or you know, an art magazine or something. There there's 363 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: his son, right, And then he really flipped from from 364 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: sort of disengagement to the proud parent who you know 365 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: we did. We'd go into a grocery store and at 366 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: the checkout, cutry guard, you know who this is my son. 367 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: This is the artist that he take the clipping out 368 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: of his wallety exactly. This is from the New York Times. 369 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: That's E I S F I S h L. Well, 370 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: you know he uh he became an artist at the 371 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: end of his life as well. He discovered collage and 372 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: it took him a while after he retired to find 373 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: He tried other things, and then all of a sudden 374 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: he found himself like sitting in his office at home 375 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: cutting pictures out and gluing them together. And and you know, 376 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: he's he was not a schooled artist, but he had 377 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: an eye and he had a kind of liveliness to 378 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: these collages that he made that were very expressive. And 379 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: by the time he died, I had realized that he 380 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: and I could never talk to each other, but we 381 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: just kept missing, you know, but we understood each other visually, 382 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 1: and so he would send me his collages and I 383 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: knew exactly what he was thinking about, where he was at, 384 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: how he was feeling. You know, he was really communicating 385 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: through these visual images, and he showed me that he 386 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: was had been using my paintings to understand what had 387 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: happened in our lives with with my mother and the 388 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,479 Speaker 1: whole family dynamic. And so we actually were both visual 389 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: people who understood what that meant to communicate visually to 390 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: each other. So it was it was deeply rewarding to 391 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: me ultimately to but it took me a while to 392 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: understand that they were talked to about your paintings and 393 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: his view of your paintings. Well, at first, I mean 394 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: he didn't. He talked to me about success. You know, 395 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: you could see and be enthusiastic for this show and 396 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: that show, etcetera, etcetera. But there was this uh thing 397 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: that happened. There was I think, um, you know, really 398 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: blew my mind, which was that I had done a 399 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: painting UM called a Woman Possessed, and it was a 400 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: painting of a woman outside the suburban home, drunk, passed 401 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: out in the driveway, surrounded by these dogs that were like, 402 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: you know, beasts from hell it or you know, some 403 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: were sniffing her somewhere, growling at at the sun. Who 404 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: had could just come home from school. The school books 405 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: are on the ground as bicycle slipped over. He topped 406 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: off his bike. So this boy is trying to pull 407 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: her away from these dogs and her demon dogs. I 408 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: I showed the painting in Toronto and the and the 409 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: critic described it in the most beautiful terms. He understood 410 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: it as as a painting that revealed the profound pain 411 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: of love, of loving someone right, and it was. It 412 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: was a painting, was the only painting in this show. 413 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: It was a one painting show. And he wrote extensively 414 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: about it. And so, you know, proud son sends it 415 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: to my father and unbeknownst to me, my father sends 416 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: the review of off to my siblings. Right, and my 417 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: younger sister Lori writes back a her to him. She's furious, 418 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: why is he trying to make her remember this painful time? 419 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: You know? And he shared these letters to me. I 420 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: didn't know they were having until the whole communication came 421 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: to me, but he shared to me her response and 422 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: then his response to her, in which he revealed that 423 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: he had been actually using my paintings the whole time 424 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: to understand emotionally what had been happening in our lives 425 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: and stuff, and that he was just trying to heal something, 426 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: you know, trying to bring her into it as well, 427 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: into two, into a kind of healing process, and to 428 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: acknowledge his awareness, yeah, which which took me completely by surprise, 429 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: and that that he had been seeing the work as 430 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: deeply as he had, you know, revealed as you intended 431 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: it to be safe, which is what I intended, which 432 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: would hope he might have been. Last exactly did he 433 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: find his ape and marry someone that was reliable for 434 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: him emotionally? No, I mean he he married somebody that 435 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: was absolutely reliable, loved him, you know, stable. It's yes 436 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: in that sense. But she was such an polar opposite 437 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: of my mother. I was surprised because I I thought 438 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: my father would just find some uh some a little 439 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: bit more you know, manageable version of my mother, that 440 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: the things that he loved in my mother, her creativity, 441 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: her Yeah, But instead he he wasn't attached to that 442 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: part of her coming up. In part two of our conversation, 443 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: Eric Fischel talks about the challenges of becoming a first 444 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: time our teacher. I was only a couple of years 445 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: older than them to begin with. You're a young teacher 446 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: and I had I had never been taught techniques and 447 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: the benefits. That's where he met his current wife, April. 448 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin. This is Alec Baldwin, and you 449 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: were listening to. Here's the thing. My guest today is 450 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: Eric Fishel. For years, he and his wife worked out 451 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: of their downtown Manhattan studio, but he says the city 452 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: doesn't feed him like it once did. Now he feels 453 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: a greater connection to nature. Back in the early eighties, however, 454 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: it was the perfect place to develop his craft. Soho 455 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: was was percolating. I mean it was. It was a 456 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: real village of artists, you know, the all of the 457 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: It wasn't Lower Madison Avenue like it is now. No, 458 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: it was. It was not a mall. It was it was. 459 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: It was a village and and you know the kind 460 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: of thing where you would see people you knew on 461 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: the streets every day, you'd sit and talk. You know, 462 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: you'd break bread, hang out at art art bars and 463 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: stuff like that. It was it was great. And there 464 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: was you know a kind of exciting tension between the 465 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: older artists and and us young kids who had come 466 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: there to to make a difference. And and you know, 467 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: there was a rivalry and a kind of healthy competitive 468 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: thing going on. We wanted to kill them and they 469 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: wanted to ignore us. By them, who do you mean 470 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: particularly well, there was ah, you know generation of artists, um, 471 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: you know, half a generation of five ten years older 472 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: for example, that were doing sort of minimalist work. For 473 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: example of people like Don Judd or Carl Andre or 474 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: Sol Wite. There were conceptual artists like Larry Weener or 475 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: Joseph Kasooth or um to name a couple that doing 476 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: a whole different kind of thing painting. Painting had become 477 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: a disregarded, uh medium. So part of my generation was 478 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: trying to see if we could reassert some kind of 479 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: authority and authenticity to painting. And the kind of painting 480 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: that the minimalists had done had brought painting to its 481 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: ultimate conclusion, which was too essentially have a kind of 482 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: nothing there. A lot of artists felt it was a 483 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: dead medium, And then there were other artists like myself 484 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,719 Speaker 1: who was absolutely no their paintings real and you know, 485 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: you just have to find the truth, find the you know, 486 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: the things that matter and convey them convincingly. There there 487 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: wasn't yet the limos, there wasn't yet the kind of 488 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: rock star status. All those things were to come when 489 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: probably by eighty five it started to happen. How did 490 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,479 Speaker 1: you and how would you describe that it was? When 491 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: it came? It came? How people weren't collecting? You you 492 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: talk about painting was an overlooked medium art form. We 493 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: read about the art world where you know, dead masters 494 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: continue to sell paintings for tens, if not hundreds of 495 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: millions of dollars. And at that time, in the late 496 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, is that what the art collecting world 497 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: was confined to were the masters of art? And everything 498 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: contemporary was just no what it was? Was there? There 499 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: was a warhole. Wasn't warhole then? Was he? He wasn't 500 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: In terms of financially it wasn't. His paintings were still 501 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: selling pretty cheaply, but a collector base entered that had 502 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: made money very quickly in the dot com world and 503 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: then moved into uh, sort of buying art and speculating 504 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: on it. Um. There was a sense that the object 505 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: was to find the next genius, right, So what you 506 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: did was you started to speculate on young artists, buying 507 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: a lot of a cheap hoping that one of them 508 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: was going to turn out to be Picasso or something 509 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: like that. And there were all these stories so that 510 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: you know, a collector buying a Jasper John's painting for 511 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: two fifty dollars and you know, selling it for eleven 512 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: million dollars giving it to you to pay his rent, 513 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: or one of those exactly that kind of thing. So 514 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: there was like this whole so kind of vogue among 515 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: collectors to just go in and put money into young arts. Yeah, 516 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, it was a way for them 517 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: to deal with their money anyway, because they had to 518 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: change the art world. Now it's hedge funders. And I 519 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: have a guy who's a friend of mine who's an artist, 520 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: and then one guy will say to me, hey, in 521 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: and he says, you know, without ann ounce of cynicism, 522 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,239 Speaker 1: go online and look at Kevin Johnson. I'll make up 523 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: a name. Go see Kevin Johnson and Kevin Johnson has 524 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: just a white canvas. It's just white. He's like, no, no, 525 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: you don't get it. Man. He's like this, this guy 526 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: is white. This is what's happening right now. Everyone's just 527 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: digging on Kevin Johnson's. This isn't white, it's Kevin Johnson's white. 528 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: It's Kevin Johnson's. When everyone's just Jones in for this 529 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: white You're gonna buy this now for a hundred and 530 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars, and about five years now you're gonna 531 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: sell it for half a million dollars maybe a million. 532 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: I mean, everyone's going nuts for Kevin Jones. And I 533 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: look at paintings and I thought to myself, it's just 534 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: a game I didn't want to play, but people are 535 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: playing that game constantly. Yeah. I don't understand why people 536 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: don't have a space in their life where they don't 537 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: do what they normally do. You know, Like, if you're 538 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: a hedge funders, some financial guy, why why do you 539 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: have to turn everything into transact monitor? Why do you 540 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: have to monetize? Why why isn't there this one place 541 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: where you do something just for yourself. How do you 542 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: feel knowing that you're going to do a painting, and 543 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: that painting is done, and you sit there and say, now, 544 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: this painting may wind up like in an apartment at 545 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: fifteen Central Park West, some guys just gonna punt it 546 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: to another guy and another guy. And do you just 547 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: don't even have any feeling about that? You just accept that, 548 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: what did it piss you off? Yeah? Well, it completely 549 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: pisses me off. It's the kind of thing that if 550 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: I actually let it get into my studio, it'll destroy 551 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: what why I make hardlock. And obviously it gets increasingly 552 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: harder and harder to do that. I mean, I do 553 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: these works on paper that oil on paper, their sketches, 554 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: they're a great pleasure for me to do. Some of 555 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: them lead to painting, some of them don't. But it's 556 00:34:55,200 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: it's an activity that I do, and they're There was 557 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,919 Speaker 1: a time when they would be sold, you know, for 558 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: like five thousand dollars and then you know, ten thousand dollars, 559 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: and I uh, at some point on the secondary market 560 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: they were selling for a hundred thousand dollars. You know, 561 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: I would sell sell it to you know, in a 562 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,439 Speaker 1: show for five thousand dollars. Is six months later there 563 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: and an auction in place for a hundred thousand dollars, right, 564 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 1: So you go back into the studio and you're, you know, 565 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: I'm making my sketches and stuff like that, and I'm 566 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: looking at and thinking, well, why not do a couple more? 567 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: You know? Why not? You know, it's like all of 568 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: a sudden, they're starting to turn into currency, you know, 569 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: and which is a totally different sort of way of 570 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 1: thinking about and how much and how hard is it 571 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: for you to resist? Because I was joking with a 572 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: friend of min and I said, what it must be 573 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: like in your world where you're completely self determined, where 574 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: you're completely self generating. I get kind of amazed to 575 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: sit there and say, got Eric official is the kind 576 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 1: of guy where if he and April are like laying 577 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: there in bed on Sunday, I mean, I have a 578 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: very kind of a silly improv comedy view of April 579 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: Gornick and Eric Ficil are lying in bed on a 580 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 1: Sunday reading the New York Times, and she turns in 581 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: and goes, Eric, I'd so love to go hell is 582 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: skiing reading the papers November. I still love to go 583 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 1: hell of skiing in British Columbia in January and you're like, sure, baby, 584 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,919 Speaker 1: let's go hell and you go out and you paint 585 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: a painting hell of skiing trip. I mean like like 586 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: you can, you can just go do a painting. You're 587 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: Eric official and running out the door, whether you like, 588 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: like how hard? Have this fantasy that when my muse 589 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,839 Speaker 1: left me, I would still be able to make product, right, 590 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: that I that that I wouldn't be making art anymore, 591 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: but I'd be making things that look like art, and 592 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: that that was okay, right, And so there were times 593 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: in my process where I got stuck. I I the 594 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: inspiration was gone, and I was sure that it Now 595 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: you know, my mused, my inspiration had left, right, a 596 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: total blockage kind of thing. And what I found, to 597 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: my horror was that it didn't just leave my head, 598 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: it left my hand, and that I actually couldn't paint anymore. 599 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: I couldn't draw, I couldn't make something look like something. 600 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: It literally left every part. And that was terrifying. Right, 601 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: That's that's like your worst nightmare. And uh so I 602 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: have that memory which keeps it keeps me somewhat, you know, 603 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: focused on on staying to true to my ultimate goal. 604 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: So you're there and you're in that space and the 605 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: and the muse isn't there for you, and you've decided 606 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: not to engage, preferably if you don't. So what's the 607 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: longest period you went you didn't paint. It's it's not 608 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: so much that I didn't paint. I kept trying, like 609 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: a bulldog one and I just keep trying to go 610 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: through it. It's just it's dead, dead, dead. So I 611 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: try to keep in mind that there's like U two 612 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: audiences and there's only one audience that's actually worth playing too, 613 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: And it's an audience of voices that are in your 614 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: head there that are made up of um heroes, you know, 615 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: artists I admire. Well, you know, there's historical figures. They're like, 616 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: you know, the the greatest you know arms sculptor, you know, 617 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: Michael Angelo, say, the greatest sort of anger painter, Max Beckman. 618 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: You know, they're they're they're like they have very particular 619 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: things for me that I admire that I either emulate 620 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: or can't do and wish I could, and you know, etcetera, etcetera. 621 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: But they're clarifying. And there, you know, there's the mother voice, 622 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 1: the father voice, the gym teacher voice, the you know whatever, 623 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, and they're all in there sort of 624 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: saying what I can and can't do, what I should 625 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 1: and shouldn't do, etcetera. And so I'm like each painting 626 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: is sort of proving did these voices that this was 627 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: the right move? You know, that I was going to 628 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: do something that they would admire, something that would finally 629 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: shut them up, finally, you know whatever. Anyway, I said, 630 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:48,720 Speaker 1: this is a an audience of um that is stands 631 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: outside of time. It's it's constant, and it has a 632 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: quality standard to it that I understand. You know, I 633 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: can tell when I'm my paintings are falling short of 634 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: that performance that you know it didn't reach where I 635 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: needed it to go, because I knew that I was 636 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: falling short of this person. I admire this person, and 637 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: I hate in so far as your own paintings through 638 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,720 Speaker 1: your success are monetized or just collected by by pure 639 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: collectors and or hanging institutions. Have you yourself collected others paintings? 640 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: Have you used your success? Whose art hangs in your home? 641 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,760 Speaker 1: Have you collected art I have? I don't consider myself 642 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 1: a collector at all. What I what I did was 643 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 1: at a certain point. I wanted to acknowledge my peers, 644 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: so I want I wanted to collect something of each 645 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 1: of the people that I admire, who you know, have 646 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,280 Speaker 1: inspired me, supported me, you know what, helped me form 647 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: my thoughts. So you know, I have examples of their work. 648 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: That's why I'm not a collector. It's because I don't 649 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,240 Speaker 1: have the connoisseurship in terms of going after the best 650 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: David Sally painting, the best Cindy Sherman, the best Anselm 651 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 1: Key for you know, things like that. What I have 652 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: is examples of their work that that somebody looking over 653 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: my shoulder would say, oh, this was your time and 654 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: these were your people and stuff, and what about your 655 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: own work? Have you finished a painting you said? That's 656 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: for me? Yeah. Yeah. And the older I get, the 657 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 1: more I do that. Yeah. Early on I couldn't afford it, 658 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, let some of my my best 659 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: work go out the window. Yeah exactly. Now I'm a 660 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: little bit more precious about about that. And and part 661 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: of it is the you know, the the love doesn't 662 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: come back in the way you need it to come back. 663 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: The extreme change is not you know there, it doesn't 664 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: really work. And the way you wanted to, which is 665 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: to say, I make a painting out of love, right, 666 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: and and a profound love which includes respect, admiration, desire, need, 667 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,239 Speaker 1: you know, all of the things that go into you know, 668 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,320 Speaker 1: being a human wanting to communicate to another human and 669 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: and connect to another human. I call that love and 670 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: and so I make a painting out of love, and 671 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: I'm seeking love in return. I want that. I want 672 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: that to come back in that way. Right. So somebody 673 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: gives you money, right, which, on one hand you think, well, 674 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 1: that's an expression of love. They want to possess your work, 675 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: so so they're they're expressing love. But money doesn't feel 676 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: like love because it's a neutral currency. Now I have 677 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: to change that money into something that tells me how 678 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: much love I just got back? Right? How do you 679 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: do that? Exactly? That's where the issue. How do you 680 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: do that? You know you've done it well, so you 681 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,400 Speaker 1: you know, you buy a car, or you buy a house, 682 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,919 Speaker 1: you you buy onto your house, Yeah, exactly, you do 683 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: you do things that you want slash need. You do that, 684 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: and then there's a point in which you don't need 685 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,760 Speaker 1: those things anymore. You've got all your toys and stuff, 686 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: your mortgage is paid exactly, but now you have access right, 687 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: So is that excess love or is that just? But 688 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,320 Speaker 1: my question for you is when the muse goes away, 689 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: when you lapse into a period of product versus art. 690 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: When when the artist, and that's a very real condition, 691 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: uh struggles. I found people where it affects them in 692 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: many ways. It affects their appetite, their sexual appetite, their 693 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: physical health, their emotional health, their sleep. I mean, it 694 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: really really really damages them and it hurts them. Have 695 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: you gone through periods of that where you were, like, 696 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 1: really really I thought you were losing it? Would you 697 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:20,319 Speaker 1: do to get out of it? I painted your way 698 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: out of it? Ultimately painted the way out of it. 699 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 1: But you know, rely relied a lot on April too. 700 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 1: You know, keep me sort of above, so you bring 701 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: me to So you bring me to where are the 702 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: One of our last two questions is, let's go to 703 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: Halifax and you meet April and where are you at 704 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 1: your life when you meet April? And what happened? I'm 705 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,879 Speaker 1: I'm twenty seven years old or something like that. I'm 706 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:54,399 Speaker 1: teaching at this art school. It actually is a very 707 00:44:54,520 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: sort of advanced thinking place that lie cal Arts, where 708 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: I went to school. Nova Scotia College of Art and 709 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,760 Speaker 1: Design was also sort of based on the most radical 710 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: art of the moment um, anti painting. So they hired 711 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 1: me as a young, untested painter teacher simply because they'd 712 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 1: fired somebody mid semester, needed someone right away they could 713 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: care less about painting, so they took a risk on 714 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: this guy based on what my former teacher had recommended. 715 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: I get this job. I'm in Halifax, Nova Scotia. I 716 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 1: go up there with my wife at the time. Uh, 717 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:45,240 Speaker 1: spend three months teaching there. She lapsing into a deep 718 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: depression because she she's rootless and being ignored. And I'm 719 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: following you basically and following me, and I'm not sensitive 720 00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 1: enough to it. You know what that sacrifice was. And uh, 721 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, we moved back to Chicago in the summer 722 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: and I get rehired and she announces she doesn't want 723 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,719 Speaker 1: to go back and our marriage is over. And that 724 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:17,720 Speaker 1: following year I meet April. I didn't plan on falling 725 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:23,400 Speaker 1: in love. I just planned on having sex. And shame 726 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 1: on you, Eric, shame on you call me shallow. Anyway, 727 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: one thing led to another, and and what it was was. 728 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:39,759 Speaker 1: I was actually going through a very sort of complicated 729 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: set of emotions for uh, you know, I had never 730 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:48,840 Speaker 1: mourned the death of my mother. I had just broken 731 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: up with, you know, split with my wife kind of thing. 732 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:58,040 Speaker 1: I was now falling in love not wanting to with April. 733 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 1: My work was going through a transition where I was 734 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: giving up the artists I thought I was going to 735 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,720 Speaker 1: be for the artist I ultimately became. And that period 736 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: of doubt threw me into a kind of series of 737 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: anxiety attacks, panic modes where I really began to have 738 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:23,880 Speaker 1: some serious psychological issues. I was dissociating and you know, 739 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,839 Speaker 1: and ended up on you know, any psychotic medicine and 740 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 1: stuff like that to stabilize me. Meanwhile, I'm teaching Meanwhile, 741 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 1: you're up showing these young impressionable minds the world through 742 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,000 Speaker 1: your eyes exactly, let me show you the world through 743 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 1: my clumb up and soaked eyes. And the thing is 744 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,719 Speaker 1: that I was only a couple of years older than 745 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: them to begin with. Your a young teacher, and I 746 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:54,839 Speaker 1: had I had never been taught technique. So I'm teaching 747 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 1: you thing like your teacher were doing at cow Arts. 748 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 1: And that day, Okay, great, to hear that, you know, 749 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:06,880 Speaker 1: to some extent, I was definitely going through several women 750 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,000 Speaker 1: in the in the student body, but not all at 751 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,839 Speaker 1: the same moment. But it was a sacrifice. Yeah, I mean, 752 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,279 Speaker 1: it's a you know, it's a small isolated community that 753 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,400 Speaker 1: winters are harsh up there. Yeah, and when the skipper 754 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: runs into Ginger and Maryanne, we can only talk about 755 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,960 Speaker 1: the weather for so many times because then the title charts, 756 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: So go ahead, So the skipper runs into Ginger and Marian. Yeah, 757 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 1: and ultimately ran ran into April. And she stuck with 758 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 1: me through this time, which was really difficult and in 759 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,240 Speaker 1: a kind of way that you know, I just couldn't 760 00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: imagine there being anybody else, so we did. Now, she 761 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:54,359 Speaker 1: was a student who started out doing very conceptual art. 762 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: I actually the way I tried to impress on her, 763 00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,960 Speaker 1: to make her look at me was I found her 764 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,920 Speaker 1: working on a on a project. She was doing some 765 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 1: something that had she was gluing pieces of wood to 766 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,240 Speaker 1: a piece of paper and then writing some obscure philosophical 767 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 1: text around and it was you know, I just went 768 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,359 Speaker 1: up to her and said, you know, the idea of 769 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,520 Speaker 1: gluing wood onto paper just seemed the redundancy. That was 770 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,880 Speaker 1: so stupid. I can't imagine why anyone would do it, 771 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,800 Speaker 1: thinking that she'd want to have dinner with me having 772 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 1: said that, and she just told me to go fuck myself, 773 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,640 Speaker 1: and and that was that. And and then for the 774 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: next six months I tried to make nice to to recover, 775 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,879 Speaker 1: to recover from your offense. And yeah, so I don't 776 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:45,759 Speaker 1: I don't know what made me think an insult would 777 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,600 Speaker 1: be the way to open the door. Did she ever 778 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:53,040 Speaker 1: return the favorite work? Did she ever return the favorite 779 00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 1: she ever walke into your studio and say, what were 780 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,960 Speaker 1: you thinking? Yeah? This is just yeah, No, she she's 781 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:04,560 Speaker 1: actually my greatest, most clear scene critics, your most prevalent subject. 782 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: If you painted her more than any other person, yes, yeah, 783 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,400 Speaker 1: I've painted her a lot. I've painted her in in 784 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: dispised ways, and I've painted her in ways where you 785 00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,320 Speaker 1: can see it's her. Um. So, now you are a 786 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,400 Speaker 1: very well known man and your work is very popular. 787 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,360 Speaker 1: You and your wife are a very admired couple in 788 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,960 Speaker 1: a community that you live in. And I want to 789 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,440 Speaker 1: ask you, you know, a why do you live out here? Particularly? 790 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,759 Speaker 1: You could escape, like a lot of great artists find 791 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,440 Speaker 1: they won't have real anonymity and peace. You can go 792 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,279 Speaker 1: live in Italy or anywhere you want to go. Why here? 793 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 1: And also, let's be honest, we live out here, and 794 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,680 Speaker 1: there are certain social rhythms out here, and there are 795 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,520 Speaker 1: certain patterns that repeat themselves almost metronomically out here all 796 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 1: the time. And do you find in a strange way 797 00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,279 Speaker 1: you've washed up on the shores of your own Port 798 00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,279 Speaker 1: Washington yacht club in a way, I mean, there's are 799 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,000 Speaker 1: kind of a rigor to the way you're living now 800 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 1: that you didn't bargain for. Yeah, I think there was 801 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,279 Speaker 1: a moment a while back where I kind of looked 802 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,800 Speaker 1: around and went, oh, my god, you know this is 803 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: this is where I grew up. I'm in a different 804 00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,680 Speaker 1: relationship to it. But it's definitely, you know, more of 805 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: a suburban than an urban environment and a suburban kind 806 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:28,200 Speaker 1: of rhythm to it. But everybody needs a sense of community, 807 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:32,600 Speaker 1: needs a sense of place where where they belong. Right, Um, 808 00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,360 Speaker 1: I grew up on Long Island. You grew up on 809 00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:39,560 Speaker 1: Long Island. I used to come out here in the summertime. 810 00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:45,600 Speaker 1: It's familiar territory, etcetera. It seems natural in a way 811 00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 1: to to want to be here. And also it's there's 812 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:54,080 Speaker 1: a scale to it that makes you think that you 813 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,760 Speaker 1: can make a difference. It seems like pretty much everywhere 814 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,360 Speaker 1: you go we're in a state of you know, transformation 815 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,160 Speaker 1: or decay or something where it's you know, it's what 816 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,160 Speaker 1: it was going to take ten years before this place 817 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: gets ruined and you go to someplace el is going 818 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,400 Speaker 1: to take another five years before that one does it. 819 00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,120 Speaker 1: So you think, okay, I'll stay and fight it a 820 00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 1: little bit and do that, plus plus on some you know, 821 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: sort of basic level, you actually feel like you belong here, 822 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,400 Speaker 1: you know, so you you want it to mind to 823 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 1: do it. It's other people's and its mind. So is 824 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,959 Speaker 1: it safe to say, just to conclude this, if you will, 825 00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: that the eponymous bad boy of the title still has 826 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,040 Speaker 1: his doubts, still has his anxiety, still has his fears 827 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,360 Speaker 1: and issues and so on. He just just learned to 828 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:52,040 Speaker 1: handle them differently. I think that's true. Yeah, absolutely, they 829 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,359 Speaker 1: don't go away. I thought that the older you got, 830 00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,920 Speaker 1: the easier at God, it turns out the opposite. We 831 00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 1: just learned how to manage patty, dismanage it. Yeah, that's true. 832 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:10,239 Speaker 1: M H. Eric Official says he didn't set out to 833 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,759 Speaker 1: write a memoir. His friend Michael Stone was writing about 834 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,399 Speaker 1: cal arts, which then morphed into their book Bad Boy, 835 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:23,120 Speaker 1: My Life On and Off the Canvas. This is Alec 836 00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,640 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing.