Speaker 1: A warning.
Speaker 2: This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide
Speaker 2: that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If
Speaker 2: you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to
Speaker 2: the end of this episode to find out where help
Speaker 2: is available. I don't want to scare you. We're on
Speaker 2: page four of fourteen.
Speaker 1: Oh lord, Okay.
Speaker 2: I continue my conversation with Kelly Moffatt, who came forward
Speaker 2: almost three years after Anastasia Whitpbules Fuchen was murdered to
Speaker 2: say her then boyfriend Byron Case is the real killer.
Speaker 2: I said it to you from the very beginning, I
Speaker 2: think when I wrote to you more than a year ago.
Speaker 1: God, I can't believe it's been them all.
Speaker 2: That I was going into this story just looking for
Speaker 2: the truth. I'm just looking for the truth. I'm Leah Rothman.
Speaker 2: This is the Real Killer, Episode fourteen.
Speaker 1: Bring it.
Speaker 2: Before we can continue with part two of my interview
Speaker 2: with Kelly, we must talk about something quite shocking that
Speaker 2: has just been revealed to me. On Tuesday night, before
Speaker 2: this Thursday episode was to come out, Kelly sends me
Speaker 2: screenshots from her littering case. It shows that her sentence
Speaker 2: was to pay a fine. Remember that's what she said
Speaker 2: in the last episode. And she was really confused because
Speaker 2: she didn't remember spending forty eight hours in jail and
Speaker 2: getting two years probation. So I sent her the docket
Speaker 2: I have, which includes the sentence of forty eight hours
Speaker 2: of shock jail time and two years probation. Within minutes,
Speaker 2: Kelly texts me that there is a case number on
Speaker 2: the docket that doesn't match hers. At first, I don't
Speaker 2: see what she's seeing. Then I do. I immediately look up
Speaker 2: the other case number and it belongs to some guy
Speaker 2: named Brendan who passed some bad checks back in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety nine. To say I am stunned and embarrassed is
Speaker 2: a major understatement. I ask Kelly if we can talk
Speaker 2: on the phone, and that I won't record the call.
Speaker 1: She says yes.
Speaker 2: One of the first things she says to me is
Speaker 2: do you believe me? Now? While on the phone, we
Speaker 2: both look at the other guy's docket and Kelly points
Speaker 2: out that although there's no mention of him being sentenced
Speaker 2: to forty eight hours shock jail time, he was sentenced
Speaker 2: to unsupervised probation for seven hundred in thirty one days,
Speaker 2: so basically two years and one day of probation. This
Speaker 2: has to be a horrible clerical error, right. Kelly said, yes,
Speaker 2: there are things she can't remember, but she remembers the
Speaker 2: important stuff, like Byron killed Anastasia, and that she never
Speaker 2: spent forty eight hours in jail and was given two
Speaker 2: years probation, which makes more sense because in the last episode,
Speaker 2: when I asked her about how she said in her
Speaker 2: deposition she had never been in trouble with the law,
Speaker 2: she said she didn't consider a littering charge and paying
Speaker 2: a fine a big deal, which, by the way, there
Speaker 2: is a separate page in her docket that says her
Speaker 2: sentence was only to pay a fine of fourteen dollars
Speaker 2: and ninety five cents. For someone who takes her job
Speaker 2: very seriously and works hard to get all of the
Speaker 2: facts correct, this is a very bad oversight on my part.
Speaker 2: I apologize to Kelly, which she graciously accepts. She says,
Speaker 2: this is the kind of stuff Byron's legal team has
Speaker 2: been doing to try and discredit her. She asks me
Speaker 2: if I think they did it on purpose or do
Speaker 2: they just not know how to read a court docket.
Speaker 2: I need to know what Byron's legal team is going
Speaker 2: to say about this. Remember, they allege that Kelly came
Speaker 2: forward because there was some behind the scenes maneuvering to
Speaker 2: get her out of legal trouble in exchange for her
Speaker 2: pointing the finger at Byron. Now that it's clear there
Speaker 2: was none of that, As Kelly maintained in our last episode,
Speaker 2: a big part of their case falls apart. I will
Speaker 2: ask them about all of this and have that for
Speaker 2: you in our next and final episode. Okay, getting back
Speaker 2: to the second part of our interview, Kelly and I
Speaker 2: now get into the nitty gritty of what she says
Speaker 2: happened that fateful evening in Lincoln Cemetery just minutes before
Speaker 2: Anastasia was murdered. If I understand correctly, you were sitting
Speaker 2: in the passenger backseat. Yeah, I think you said where
Speaker 2: was an Anastasia was standing sort of like back back
Speaker 2: window on the driver's side, yes, and Justin was more
Speaker 2: towards the front of the car on the driver side.
Speaker 1: Could see him. I could definitely see Anastasia, and then
Speaker 1: I heard the trunk pop, and then that's when I
Speaker 1: looked over and I looked out the window. Definitely what
Speaker 1: do you remember saying it was Okay, how do I
Speaker 1: do this? I don't want to make noise on your table. Okay.
Speaker 1: Say you're looking out the window. Someone's here, someone's here.
Speaker 1: It's kind of an angle. So that's Anastasia, this is Byron.
Speaker 2: You know what you do it out here on this table,
Speaker 2: it's okay.
Speaker 1: So here's Anna Stasier standing here, here's Justin, here's Byron
Speaker 1: popping the trunk, and then they're both they're kind of
Speaker 1: parallel to me.
Speaker 2: So if this is the car, yeah, headlights, yes, okay, okay.
Speaker 2: And then, in an attempt to get an understanding of
Speaker 2: where Kelly says everyone was at the time of the murder,
Speaker 2: on a scrap piece of paper, I draw a car
Speaker 2: with headlights. Then I asked Kelly to show me where Justin, Anastasia,
Speaker 2: and eventually Byron were standing. If you want to see
Speaker 2: this very rudimentary drawing, I'm posting it on the Real
Speaker 2: Killer Podcast Instagram page.
Speaker 1: Okay, and then cause you yeah, here's me in the
Speaker 1: back passenger seat, like, here's Justin standing here, here's Anne
Speaker 1: stays you're right there, Byron pump pops the trunk and
Speaker 1: then is like, right here, actually I should put myself
Speaker 1: further back. It's they were at an angle, so I
Speaker 1: could definitely see her face and everything, and when he
Speaker 1: lifted up the gun, but it was no wonder. I
Speaker 1: didn't know how long the gun was just because I
Speaker 1: could see his arm left up her face blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: But you know, when something's completely parallel and they're both opaque,
Speaker 1: it kind of blocks.
Speaker 2: The right in line with each other.
Speaker 1: It's like it was, it was aligned with each other,
Speaker 1: but I could still see her face and whatnot. And
Speaker 1: then also, my husband's one of those people that researches everything,
Speaker 1: and he actually said he was like, well, no, because
Speaker 1: five feet actually makes more sense because if it was
Speaker 1: a longer gun or whatever and he had to raise
Speaker 1: it up, the gun was probably you know, yay long,
Speaker 1: and then it could have still really been in her face,
Speaker 1: you know. So I don't know why they're Also also
Speaker 1: I was a teenage girl that didn't know anything about guns.
Speaker 1: I did the best I could with giving them the explanation.
Speaker 1: Sergeant Kilgore, yeah, and he kept trying to get me
Speaker 1: to commit to a length, and I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It was dusk, it was freaking to me, that's a
Speaker 1: mute point. And of course I know in trials you
Speaker 1: want to get everything as exact as possible, but that's
Speaker 1: not how life works. That's just not I didn't know
Speaker 1: anything about guns. I didn't. All I know is that
Speaker 1: she he shot or as she fell, and then it
Speaker 1: was a scramble like to get back in the car.
Speaker 2: And when I do have to say after our interview,
Speaker 2: some days later, I messaged Kelly and told her I
Speaker 2: had a couple of follow up questions. One was regarding
Speaker 2: the drawing. I wondered how Byron could have gotten out
Speaker 2: of the car from the dry side and made his
Speaker 2: way to the trunk if Justin and Anastasia were standing
Speaker 2: right there. Did Byron go in between them? I didn't understand,
Speaker 2: so I asked Kelly, and she sends this voice message,
Speaker 2: believing the question came from Byron's legal team and not me.
Speaker 1: The map is very simple to follow. I'm not going
Speaker 1: into the whole god out of the car, all the
Speaker 1: stupid fucking crap. I stick to my original testimony. Byron
Speaker 1: just down up to this. I am so sick of this.
Speaker 1: It makes me feel horrible about my entire involvement in
Speaker 1: all this. I just I feel disgusting after talking about
Speaker 1: all this stuff, and he could give a shit less
Speaker 1: quit picking at maps and little Timmy Jesus Christ, you
Speaker 1: got out of the car and you popped the trunk
Speaker 1: and you killed her again.
Speaker 2: I let Kelly know it was my question and not
Speaker 2: one coming from Byron's legal team. I'm sorry my follow
Speaker 2: up question caused her so much stress. But one more
Speaker 2: thing that I remembered even later. Kelly said she was
Speaker 2: sitting in the back passenger seat behind Anastasia, Byron had
Speaker 2: been sitting behind Justin. But Byron said the opposite that
Speaker 2: after they left the Dairy Queen and then Mount Washington Cemetery,
Speaker 2: he was sitting in the back passenger seat behind Anastasia
Speaker 2: and Kelly had been sitting behind Justin. I wonder who
Speaker 2: was telling the truth. Okay, back to Kelly in our
Speaker 2: sit down interview, I think you said when you came forward,
Speaker 2: you said that the gun that Byron said the gun
Speaker 2: had came from his dad's or did you say that
Speaker 2: you said that the gun had come from his dad's.
Speaker 1: I don't think I knew. I think I said, now,
Speaker 1: don't quote me on this like I said, it's been
Speaker 1: so long. I had thought that I had seen a
Speaker 1: gun like a mountain on the wall at his dad's house,
Speaker 1: and so I assumed that that was the gun. But
Speaker 1: I don't you know.
Speaker 2: I'm going to get to the affidavits that they got later.
Speaker 2: But when doctor Young says your description of anestatia being
Speaker 2: blown backwards was Hollywood style fiction, what do you say
Speaker 2: to that?
Speaker 1: I don't even know they're talking about, because then the
Speaker 1: guy on that Unlocking the Truth said that I would
Speaker 1: have had to be a lying genius to get it
Speaker 1: like I got it well. And what is that I
Speaker 1: don't even understand. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I if you listen to that episode. Kelly
Speaker 2: is referring to when doctor Thomas Young was interviewed by
Speaker 2: Ryan Ferguson on MTV's Unlocking the Truth. I think it
Speaker 2: was episode ten where doctor Young, you know, gives it
Speaker 2: writes an affidavit for Byron's legal team, saying that what
Speaker 2: you described was not forensically possible. However, on the sun
Speaker 2: Last Thing, Yeah, Locking the Truth show, he said what
Speaker 2: you did say made sense.
Speaker 1: So what is that?
Speaker 2: What do you make of a medical examiner who says
Speaker 2: to like conflicting diametrically posed things like so that makes.
Speaker 1: No sense to me and just shows me that they
Speaker 1: don't know what they're talking about either, I mean, and also,
Speaker 1: don't some of these people get paid to be expert
Speaker 1: witnesses suddenly and stuff. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know that he was, but I don't care.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is gonna sound whatever. I don't care
Speaker 1: what they say. I know what I saw. You know,
Speaker 1: I would love for everything to fit into all these
Speaker 1: little perfect boxes so that everything lined up. But like
Speaker 1: I said, if you know much about the science of memory,
Speaker 1: that's not how stuff works. And also like I was
Speaker 1: a kid who knew nothing about gun and nothing about
Speaker 1: I mean, I did the best I could.
Speaker 2: A very specific thing that you said when you came
Speaker 2: forward forward was that Justin was yelling in German basically
Speaker 2: stop don't do it?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Had you heard them talking German to each other?
Speaker 1: Before? Yeah? Well, like I said, help, Like to me,
Speaker 1: that's pretty that is such specific circumstances, like how did
Speaker 1: I make that up? You? When I make that up?
Speaker 1: And also with all this stuff I think coming forward,
Speaker 1: like I destroyed my own life. It was already destroyed
Speaker 1: with all the guilt and stuff too. I had no
Speaker 1: idea if I was going to get immunity. I was
Speaker 1: scared to death. I didn't you know, I didn't know
Speaker 1: if I was going to be charged with murderers. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean I almost thought that that was like what
Speaker 1: I deserved and stuff. Idea and then also for the
Speaker 1: rest of my life. If you google me, that is
Speaker 1: immediately what pops up. You know, I've had people at
Speaker 1: jobs figure it out and stuff. Why would I just
Speaker 1: announce to the world that, you know, because of me,
Speaker 1: someone is dead. That makes no sense to get back at.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just so stupid.
Speaker 2: Right because it's been alleged that you were so angry
Speaker 2: that Byron was moving to Saint Louis and leaving you,
Speaker 2: leaving you period, whether it was like you know, because
Speaker 2: he would give you money and showers and stuff like that, you.
Speaker 1: Just didn't do any of that. He flat out didn't
Speaker 1: do any of that. I wouldn't have wanted him to.
Speaker 1: I was scared of him, and I thought he was
Speaker 1: a piece of shit. He never I don't know where
Speaker 1: he's even getting that.
Speaker 2: So you did not come forward out of revenge.
Speaker 1: Revenge for what. Sorry, I broke up with him. I
Speaker 1: got a new boyfriend right afterwards. I got someone that
Speaker 1: was age appropriate that I just did not want anything
Speaker 1: to do with him anymore. Why would I care if
Speaker 1: he moved? I mean probably a little bit, because it
Speaker 1: was like he was not emotionally affected by any of
Speaker 1: this and just seemed to be doing whatever. Do you
Speaker 1: know this? Do you know that after all this, he
Speaker 1: drove around in some hooptie with a pitchfork on his
Speaker 1: car with a rotting chicken carcass on it. What you
Speaker 1: need to look that up? Yeah? After and so that
Speaker 1: was another thing that it was basically known that he
Speaker 1: was a murderer and stuff in Westport. Yeah, No, he
Speaker 1: thought it was funny. Okay. He literally had a pitchfork
Speaker 1: that he welded to the front of his car that
Speaker 1: had a rotting chicken hang off, and he drove it
Speaker 1: around Westport and he thought it was hilarious. This is
Speaker 1: after he'd been a suspect in her murder.
Speaker 2: My mouth is a gape at this story, and I'm
Speaker 2: adding it to the growing list of questions I have
Speaker 2: for Byron. I then asked Kelly how she thought the
Speaker 2: story Byron had allegedly concocted that Anastasia got out of
Speaker 2: the car on Truman Road walked off, never to be
Speaker 2: seen by any of them. Ever again, oh would hold up.
Speaker 1: I think he thought he was smarter than the police.
Speaker 1: I think he definitely thought he was smarter than me.
Speaker 1: That's why I think he whatever the tacit admission shit
Speaker 1: is is because I thought I mean, I think he
Speaker 1: thought that he had me geared and I was never
Speaker 1: going to come forward and do anything. And you know,
Speaker 1: and now I've said, like, just fuck him. I don't
Speaker 1: I rarely or not rarely, I never say that I
Speaker 1: hate people. But he's a pretty I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: even have sympathy for him, like I said, because that
Speaker 1: driving around you know where her sisters can see with
Speaker 1: a rotting chicken on your car, his little license plates
Speaker 1: that said morbid and said atheist and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: But it was basically like he was taunting whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he definitely thought that he was the smartest guy in
Speaker 1: the room. He also thought he was the most interesting
Speaker 1: guy in the room. He thought a lot of things.
Speaker 1: I don't know where he ever got that idea.
Speaker 2: In the time between you coming forward and the June fifth,
Speaker 2: two thousand and one recorded call, the TUSSED mission call. Yeah,
Speaker 2: what was life like for you during those months?
Speaker 1: It was stressful. I was afraid, because that's another thing.
Speaker 1: He's like, Oh, she was stalking me, she knew my
Speaker 1: number here, she knew my number there, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: The police gave me those numbers so I could call
Speaker 1: him and try to get him to admit to something
Speaker 1: over the phone. Yeah, that was really really stressful because
Speaker 1: I knew that, you know, the case hung on that,
Speaker 1: and I'm just so sick of the whole like, did
Speaker 1: he say we shouldn't talk about this? Did he say
Speaker 1: we should talk about it? The whole point is that
Speaker 1: he didn't say, you crazy bitch. I didn't kill her.
Speaker 1: I mean he didn't even. In fact, he sat there
Speaker 1: and listened to me ramble for a very long time.
Speaker 1: He's just I can't believe these people believe this shit
Speaker 1: that he's saying. It's just so stupid. It's not I
Speaker 1: don't know.
Speaker 2: I asked more about the circumstances surrounding the June fifth
Speaker 2: recorded phone call. Do you remember why you felt like
Speaker 2: tonight like I'm gonna try again while Angie's here.
Speaker 1: It was just out of desperation because the deadline was
Speaker 1: getting more and more. What deadline to call him and
Speaker 1: get him to admit to something. I mean, not really deadline.
Speaker 1: They had just that thing had been hooked up in
Speaker 1: my house for a very long time, and I hadn't
Speaker 1: had any I think it was just summoning in touch
Speaker 1: with him. But then I remember that someone had informed
Speaker 1: me that they thought that he was back at his
Speaker 1: mom's house, and so I was just like, Okay, one
Speaker 1: more time, let's try to you know. And did you
Speaker 1: also notice with him supposedly saying that he gave me
Speaker 1: money and helped me shower and stuff, he never once
Speaker 1: in that conversation and was like, look, I can't give
Speaker 1: you any more money, I can't blah blah blah, stop
Speaker 1: calling me about that, none of that.
Speaker 2: Had you ever asked him point blank like why did
Speaker 2: you like like you did on that call, Why did
Speaker 2: you feel the need to kill her? Had you ever
Speaker 2: asked him that before?
Speaker 1: Not in the exact way, but yeah, I had definitely
Speaker 1: said before, like that night where he like pinned me
Speaker 1: up against the wall but my neck when I confronted
Speaker 1: him about being a murderer. I was like, where on earth? Like,
Speaker 1: how did you guys even start talking about this? I'm like,
Speaker 1: Justin was not that type of person, Like he just was.
Speaker 1: He was very lost. Like I said, I think he
Speaker 1: was very mentally ill. But also Justin didn't his screensaver wasn't,
Speaker 1: you know, crime scene photos and stuff. And Byron had
Speaker 1: also told me stuff. This was another reason why I
Speaker 1: thought he was full of crap. He had told me
Speaker 1: that he participated in necrophilia and all kinds of stuff before,
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, okay, I just didn't Yeah,
Speaker 1: a sixteen year old had access to it. I don't
Speaker 1: know he.
Speaker 2: Just what did you? I steer Kelly back to the
Speaker 2: June fifth TACIT admission phone call. There supposedly was some
Speaker 2: plane closed law enforcement person there. Who was that person?
Speaker 1: I do not remember that. I was drinking a lot
Speaker 1: back then, and she was drinking a lot back then.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to speak for her, but we were
Speaker 1: both drinking that night, so I don't know how clear
Speaker 1: her memory of that is either or if that was.
Speaker 1: You know, people can be very suggestible. I don't remember
Speaker 1: a plane closed in anybody.
Speaker 2: Because it was the end, Like night that you called him,
Speaker 2: So that would be very late to have something now.
Speaker 1: And it's sure as hell wasn't Amy McGowan whatever they're
Speaker 1: trying to say. I just remember it was not Amy McGowan. No,
Speaker 1: hell no.
Speaker 2: Amy McGowan was the first prosecutor on the case. We
Speaker 2: talked about her in episode ten.
Speaker 1: From my recollection. There was no plane, clothes, anybody there.
Speaker 1: And because I had tried so many times and was
Speaker 1: unable to get in touch with him that I think
Speaker 1: that they thought maybe it was like a lost cause.
Speaker 2: Do you think he knew he was being recorded?
Speaker 1: I think he uh suspected it because, like I said,
Speaker 1: he did. I didn't want anything to do with him
Speaker 1: at all, and he knew that, So why on earth
Speaker 1: would I be calling him other than something. I definitely
Speaker 1: think he's thought maybe something was going on because he
Speaker 1: barely said me. But then also, okay, if there was all,
Speaker 1: this is another thing that doesn't make any sense to
Speaker 1: me either about like what his legal team says. If
Speaker 1: there was nothing to that, why did he keep wanting
Speaker 1: to meet in person and talk about it but not
Speaker 1: on the phone. The Jackson County prosecutor wouldn't let me
Speaker 1: go because they were afraid he was going to kill me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he wanted to meet the next day at
Speaker 2: Loose Park, right, Yeah, he wanted to meet.
Speaker 1: Alone, like in you know, some kind of deserted part
Speaker 1: of the park, and they were like absolutely not.
Speaker 2: If you had been allowed to go meet Byron the
Speaker 2: next day at the park. How did you imagine that
Speaker 2: conversation going. What did I think what actually happened. Definitely
Speaker 2: thought that he would try to threaten me or kill me,
Speaker 2: or maybe he really would say, look the store, not
Speaker 2: that complicated. I told you, We told you know, she
Speaker 2: got out of the car here at Truman Road and
Speaker 2: she blah blah blah, you know something like that. Do
Speaker 2: you remember how you felt after that call ended.
Speaker 1: I was very relieved that I had gotten in contact
Speaker 1: with him, but I was also very very nervous because
Speaker 1: he had been over to my parents' house like countless times,
Speaker 1: and I know that he knew where they lived. I
Speaker 1: was also wondering if he was gonna skip town before
Speaker 1: they got a chance to arrest him. Yeah, just a
Speaker 1: fear of retaliation and all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 2: How did you feel when you learned that he had
Speaker 2: been arrested?
Speaker 1: Very relieved, But I also knew that unless they literally
Speaker 1: I knew his type of personality, unless they literally showed
Speaker 1: him a video of him killing her. I was like,
Speaker 1: he's just gonna He's been lying for so long, his
Speaker 1: entire life and persona is a lie, that he's just
Speaker 1: gonna you know, that's all he's gonna do, because for him,
Speaker 1: that's no big deal.
Speaker 2: Is the next time you see him at trial?
Speaker 1: Yes? And what was that like? That was kind of
Speaker 1: interesting because I was afraid that I was gonna be
Speaker 1: more scared of him. I was extremely angry. I was
Speaker 1: just like, you're not because, like I said, like I've
Speaker 1: just felt I'm like, like, you don't even have enough
Speaker 1: dignity to maybe. I mean, he could have pled guilty
Speaker 1: to manslaughter, he could have done anything. I was just like,
Speaker 1: you're this fucking arrogant that you're gonna make her family
Speaker 1: and Justin's family go through all this. But of course,
Speaker 1: because that's that's who he was, that's who he is.
Speaker 2: When you were on the stand, did you look over
Speaker 2: at Byron, did you lock eyes?
Speaker 1: I'd glanced at him, but no, I don't think so,
Speaker 1: because for me, that just it wasn't about him. Anymore.
Speaker 1: It was about Anastasia. And I was pissed, and I
Speaker 1: just I don't know. It was like something took over.
Speaker 2: When he When Byron is convicted and sentenced to life
Speaker 2: in prison, how do you feel, how did you feel good?
Speaker 1: And I was also extremely mad because, like I said,
Speaker 1: by that point, I had found out that he had
Speaker 1: told Brum, he told Tara he'd told all this stuff.
Speaker 1: And I was like, and none of you people are
Speaker 1: gonna say shit. And I was, like, I said, I
Speaker 1: was flabbergasted that all these people older than me that
Speaker 1: knew about this were still sticking to their guns on
Speaker 1: the bullshit story or whatever.
Speaker 2: I asked Abraham about these allegations that Byron had confessed
Speaker 2: to and Tara that he killed Anastasia. Abraham says, this
Speaker 2: quote that is absolutely a lie. Tara always expressed to
Speaker 2: me a belief that Byron was innocent. I don't believe
Speaker 2: she would ever cover for Anastasia's murderer. She and Anastasia
Speaker 2: were really close. I obviously can't speak for her, but
Speaker 2: I can say for certain that Byron never told me
Speaker 2: anything other than he was innocent. But Kelly says she
Speaker 2: was present for at least one strange interaction between Byron
Speaker 2: and Tarah.
Speaker 1: This was one particular I don't know if I've told
Speaker 1: you this before, but you know, he told Tara McDowell
Speaker 1: and she ended up dying. But there was one particular
Speaker 1: time where Byron kind of just out of the blue,
Speaker 1: which is another thing where, like I said, I think
Speaker 1: he just thought he was so much smarter than me
Speaker 1: and whatever. He took me with him over to Tara's apartment.
Speaker 1: I believe Tara and that stupid Braven guy were there.
Speaker 1: He said that he didn't think that Tara had heard
Speaker 1: about Anastasia's death yet and that she needed to hear
Speaker 1: about it from a friend. But the whole I'm like,
Speaker 1: why do I need to be here? Because I barely
Speaker 1: knew Tara whatsoever. I didn't particularly like her either, and
Speaker 1: the whole thing just felt very set up, very whatever.
Speaker 1: It felt very theatrical, and of course she put on
Speaker 1: this big performance when he told her that Anastasia was dead.
Speaker 1: She was like, hold on, I just need a second,
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, and she went into the back bedroom
Speaker 1: and Byron just had this like shit, a grin, like
Speaker 1: good job, Tara. That was a great performance type thing,
Speaker 1: and then she came back, and the whole time I
Speaker 1: was like, he's wanting me to see this, like there's
Speaker 1: no way, like this girl knows this. And then yeah,
Speaker 1: it turns out that I was right. There was a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Did you share any of that with Teresa Crayon or
Speaker 2: Amy McGowan at the time that Iron had told other people?
Speaker 2: Because I don't think that ever came out a trial.
Speaker 1: I don't think that I had much information on that
Speaker 1: at the time. There was speculation and stuff, But yeah,
Speaker 1: it was later on that I found out, you know.
Speaker 1: But I also knew that the girl that had been
Speaker 1: threatened and roughed up wanted absolutely nothing to do with
Speaker 1: the situation because she was scared.
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this question, why do you think
Speaker 2: Byron felt comfortable moving away to Saint Louis knowing that
Speaker 2: you could have very well gone and spilt the beans.
Speaker 1: Like you said, the smartest person in the room, and
Speaker 1: like I said, he used to always tell me like,
Speaker 1: you're just as guilty as I am, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: I think he didn't think that I had like the
Speaker 1: guts to do it, and I also think that he
Speaker 1: thought he had more control over me than he did,
Speaker 1: which to me is pretty laughable.
Speaker 2: When you first came forward, I think you said that
Speaker 2: the gun was dumped close ish to Lincoln Cemetery, and
Speaker 2: then when you went out with Kilgore, it seemed to
Speaker 2: be further away. Any thing you want to say about
Speaker 2: that or yesterday I was.
Speaker 1: Talking to my husband about that, and he goes, I
Speaker 1: bet you anything that you would have found that gun
Speaker 1: if you had come forward right away, if it would
Speaker 1: have been like the day after or whatever. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: but it was three years later. Yeah, I just think
Speaker 1: that it was. And also at that point in time
Speaker 1: when they were driving around and getting rod of the gun,
Speaker 1: I didn't even drive. You know, I wasn't old enough
Speaker 1: to drive, so I didn't have any I wasn't paying
Speaker 1: attention to roads or anything like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, help me understand the call that Byron and Justin
Speaker 2: asked you to make from the gas station by your house,
Speaker 2: because it seems like Anastasia thought the plan was to
Speaker 2: meet at Mount Washington, right, That's what she told her stepmom, Diane,
Speaker 2: I need to ride to Mount Washington. She went to
Speaker 2: Mount Washington. Other people saw her there. She'd as this
Speaker 2: couple who is test driving a car, Like, Hey, what
Speaker 2: time is it. I'm supposed to meet my boyfriend. He's
Speaker 2: not shown up, But you said that you needed to
Speaker 2: call her to stay to meet at the dairy queen.
Speaker 2: Can you explain that call to me? Yeah, I don't
Speaker 2: remember a lot of it. I just remember Justin Justin
Speaker 2: wanting me to do it, because he said like Anastasia
Speaker 2: was like already pissed about how late they were, and
Speaker 2: like he didn't think that she would take his call
Speaker 2: or something. There was some reason. Yeah, but I do
Speaker 2: know that I definitely made the call. That's another thing, like.
Speaker 1: Why didn't Kilbo Kilgoar pull the records from that payphone?
Speaker 2: Franzas that Justin called from a gas station in Lenexa,
Speaker 2: wondering if Anastasia was still there or if Anastasia was there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and Frand say anything about talking with you. So it's like,
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to figure out when that call took place.
Speaker 2: Do you remember or do you know for sure that
Speaker 2: you called the house?
Speaker 1: I thought that I called the house and I thought
Speaker 1: Anastasia answered, But I don't know. That's one of those
Speaker 1: things just been too long.
Speaker 2: What do you make of don Rand the night mechanic
Speaker 2: at the Amico station saying that he saw Anastasia that night.
Speaker 1: Get out of the car and all that stuff. I
Speaker 1: don't know, Like I said, I've just since listening to
Speaker 1: various doctors talk about that, and Ted talks about like
Speaker 1: memory and eyewitnesses, And I'm not talking about eyewitnesses like
Speaker 1: me who knew everybody involved and blah blah blah, just
Speaker 1: eyewitnesses like complete strangers off the street. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think people can convince are very suggestible, maybe also
Speaker 1: want to be involved in something exciting that I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe trying to get brownie points with the cops or something.
Speaker 1: I don't know, because that has never made any sense
Speaker 1: to me. I mean, that just floored me. Me and
Speaker 1: Byron were like they're like, yeah, they found the guy
Speaker 1: that says that she got out of like a And
Speaker 1: I was like, she ever, we weren't ever even on
Speaker 1: that road, Like what are you talking about? And that
Speaker 1: made me see how hard it probably is to solve
Speaker 1: crimes with all the misinformation and disinformation and stuff. Yeah, So, just.
Speaker 2: For the record, Anastasia never got out of the car
Speaker 2: on Truman Road.
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not.
Speaker 2: No, Why do you think Bob involved himself so much
Speaker 2: in the investigation and did you know how much he
Speaker 2: involved himself until you listened to And it's only a
Speaker 2: drop in the bucket. Obviously we couldn't include everything. But
Speaker 2: did you know how much Bob involved himself in the instigation?
Speaker 1: Not? Really? No, What was the second part of the question,
Speaker 1: what did you think about it? I just think, God,
Speaker 1: I feel bad saying I just think Bob is nuts, honestly,
Speaker 1: and I think maybe it was out of horrendous guilt,
Speaker 1: because you know, he the girl's mom. She said she
Speaker 1: divorced him for being so abusive and stuff. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of Bob's theories and Bob's whatever
Speaker 1: were born out of guilt. We're born out of like
Speaker 1: his own mental illness, I mean, and then obviously looking
Speaker 1: at what he was charged with later, which I don't
Speaker 1: even I know nothing about that and don't really care to.
Speaker 1: I just think he's like a very odd duck and
Speaker 1: maybe can't tell the difference between reality and whatever.
Speaker 2: That Deputy Eperson, the one who actually found Anastasia, found
Speaker 2: Bob at the exact same spot where her body was found.
Speaker 2: And you know that Deputy Eperson found it very strange
Speaker 2: and wrote that four page it is suspicious.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: It's also interesting to me that kil Gore had learned
Speaker 2: a lot of things about Bob during the course of
Speaker 2: the investigation, and really it didn't seem like he followed
Speaker 2: up on any of it. Yeah, I mean, when there
Speaker 2: was when everyone was still considered a suspect, right, one
Speaker 2: would think that Bob would be somebody at least check
Speaker 2: out the alibi, you know, So it seems like a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff didn't happen. When you heard that Bob
Speaker 2: had insurance policies out on Anastasia, that.
Speaker 1: Was shocking, But then it also was hardly any money.
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I just like I said, lots
Speaker 1: of Bob's actions don't make much sense to me.
Speaker 2: For the record, But around what time was Anastasia killed?
Speaker 1: I mean, I definitely know, I do you remember it
Speaker 1: was definitely dark enough to wear people had headlights on,
Speaker 1: but it was bright enough to where I could see
Speaker 1: them out and see what happened without like there being
Speaker 1: like floodlights out there. Honestly, I don't know. I would
Speaker 1: say I stick to my original testimony because I remember
Speaker 1: I wasn't late for my funeral, not my funeral. I'm
Speaker 1: sorry I wasn't late for my curfew, so yeah, but
Speaker 1: I don't really, But.
Speaker 2: It couldn't have been the eleven thirty at night when
Speaker 2: Bob said he heard that gunshot.
Speaker 1: No no, no, no, and that's another very bizarre thing,
Speaker 1: like what and then he says he knew his daughter
Speaker 1: was dad when he heard the man couldn't have made
Speaker 1: himself look any worse. I mean, it was just very strange.
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, there's no way it was eleven thirty.
Speaker 2: So I'm sure you heard that. Byron's legal team thinks
Speaker 2: that there was maybe some weirdness because you and Bob
Speaker 2: had You wrote that first email to Bob, and then
Speaker 2: there was some exchange email exchanges, and then there was
Speaker 2: talk of getting together. Did you ever get together with Bob?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Did you talking with Bob at all, even via email,
Speaker 2: have anything to do with you coming forward and pointing
Speaker 2: the finger at Byron.
Speaker 1: Well, I pointed the finger at Byron because he did it.
Speaker 1: I also one of the main reasons that I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk to Bob with Bolsfugen was because I did
Speaker 1: not want him thinking that I had any part in
Speaker 1: those rude, awful emails Byron was sending to him. I
Speaker 1: didn't even know. I mean like I wanted to make
Speaker 1: sure that he knew that that was not how I
Speaker 1: felt that. I thought Byron was just being a complete
Speaker 1: asshole and very cruel to all their family. Yeah. It
Speaker 1: was also once again I was hoping that maybe I
Speaker 1: would get alone with him and he would be like, Kelly,
Speaker 1: come on, just tell me. You know. I figured if
Speaker 1: he got emotional and was asking me to tell him
Speaker 1: the truth, that I would definitely tell him.
Speaker 2: I mean, from everything you're saying, it feels and sounds
Speaker 2: like you're basically just begging people to just ask.
Speaker 1: More and yes or get yeah, anything, get confrontational with
Speaker 1: me anything. It was so weird. I'm like, why were
Speaker 1: people just believing all this stuff? Well, like I said,
Speaker 1: there's we made a story up out of well, Byron
Speaker 1: made a story about of thin air that she got
Speaker 1: out of the car and blam, there's an employee saying
Speaker 1: it happened. I mean, I was just like, what am
Speaker 1: I in the Twilight Zone? I just wanted to someone.
Speaker 1: I was like, please ask the right questions.
Speaker 2: How how did Byron come up with that story? And
Speaker 2: was it like easy to come up with that story
Speaker 2: or did it take some time to be like, you know,
Speaker 2: so what do we do? We say, like, you guys
Speaker 2: got into a fight, Like how how did the how
Speaker 2: did that story evolve and.
Speaker 1: Come to be? It seemed like it happened pretty damn fast.
Speaker 1: Maybe Byron had been thinking about it all day, But
Speaker 1: to me, it was just like he was like, all right,
Speaker 1: you guys, here's the plan. Everybody knows ya stage is
Speaker 1: like hot headed, blah blah blah. And it was true
Speaker 1: that she'd thrown the ring at him a couple of times,
Speaker 1: the engagement ring or or the engagement ring or whatever. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it just to me it seemed like he uh thought
Speaker 1: it up pretty quickly. But they were alone for days
Speaker 1: and days before that, so maybe it was he'd probably
Speaker 1: had it planned for quite some time. What a weird story, though,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I always thought the story sounded ridiculous
Speaker 1: and that I was like, there's no way they're going
Speaker 1: to come. They're going to come arrest us all. I
Speaker 1: don't know.
Speaker 2: So when you heard John and Elizabeth Fisher in episode
Speaker 2: twelve talk about how Bob had told John that he
Speaker 2: saw Anastasia out on Truman Road that night or out
Speaker 2: that night, and he tried to get her in the
Speaker 2: car and she wouldn't get in the car. What did
Speaker 2: you think when you heard them?
Speaker 1: Bob was nuts that maybe he felt so guilty that
Speaker 1: he wanted to put more of the blame on himself
Speaker 1: to other people also just that maybe I'm like, maybe
Speaker 1: he's just one of those, Maybe he's a pathological liar,
Speaker 1: Maybe he just embellishes stuff, because why on earth would
Speaker 1: you add that? I have no idea. I mean, he
Speaker 1: was his own worst enemy throughout this entire thing, and
Speaker 1: it made sense. Plus, so I'm like, he's hindering the
Speaker 1: investigation that he supposedly wants done so badly. I know
Speaker 1: Bob did not kill her, because I was there when
Speaker 1: Byron killed her, But I mean, like, what is he doing?
Speaker 2: I mean, Bob back then believed that Anastasia went home
Speaker 2: that night. Patrick Rock still to this day thinks Anastasia
Speaker 2: went home that night. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1: I have thought about that so much over the years,
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I don't trust my own memory.
Speaker 1: I have had vague things where I thought that I
Speaker 1: remember her being mad because she bled through onto her
Speaker 1: pants because Justin was so late and maybe wanted us
Speaker 1: to go by there. But I don't know if that
Speaker 1: was something put into my head by hearing stuff or what.
Speaker 1: I just don't You.
Speaker 2: Don't have a clear memory memory of You don't know
Speaker 2: if if you guys went back to Anastasia's house that night.
Speaker 1: I don't, And I know on the stand I said
Speaker 1: we didn't, So then that makes me think that that's
Speaker 1: the truth. I just don't know. It's just it's been
Speaker 1: so long, and like I said, when you're I've been
Speaker 1: intact with Anastasia's friends and family off and on for
Speaker 1: so such a long time, and we've talked about different
Speaker 1: theories and stuff that I just don't you know for
Speaker 1: the most part, And like I stick to my testimony
Speaker 1: because Gil can do so much to you and make
Speaker 1: you just I don't know. Your memory can warp, and
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of drugs and alcohol and stuff
Speaker 1: I just don't trust saying either way definitively, have you.
Speaker 2: Ever seen Anastasia wear blue jeans and socks and sandals?
Speaker 1: No socks was santos? Hell? No?
Speaker 2: What did you think when you heard that a stun
Speaker 2: gun had been found on Annis Station's bed.
Speaker 1: Oh, I wasn't surprised because I knew that Justin and
Speaker 1: Byron had gotten it's a taser of the same thing
Speaker 1: as a stun gun. Yeah, yeah, I knew that they
Speaker 1: had gotten stuff and taste homeless people. Byron was really
Speaker 1: cruel and he would do all kinds of stuff. I
Speaker 1: remember there was this very very overrate homeless guy called
Speaker 1: Everybody called the Slug that would be in Westport and
Speaker 1: Byron would give him like twenty or thirty dollars to
Speaker 1: do jumping jacks in front of a group of people,
Speaker 1: and it was bad. The guy would wheeze and stuff
Speaker 1: and could barely do it. Disgusted by that. Just the
Speaker 1: longer I was with him, the more just it was
Speaker 1: just gross. He got off on humiliating people and all
Speaker 1: kinds of things. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Did you know anything about Anastasia and Patrick Rock's relationship?
Speaker 2: When did you meet Patrick.
Speaker 1: Rock after her death? Definitely? I can't remember if it
Speaker 1: was at the funeral or what. I just had known
Speaker 1: it was like a friend of the family. I knew
Speaker 1: it was her godfather. I remember her and Justin having
Speaker 1: plans like to go out to lunch with him, and stuff.
Speaker 1: I've gotten to know him fairly well after everything, and
Speaker 1: you know, keeping in touch with the family and everything,
Speaker 1: and I think he helps run that, like Stasia dot
Speaker 1: Org thing.
Speaker 2: He changed his phone number the next day. There's he
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with Anastasia's murder.
Speaker 1: No, once again, he's just he's a very odd duck. Patrick.
Speaker 1: If you're listening to this, I'm sorry. I just think
Speaker 1: he's on the spectrum and kind of I think it
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with anything.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't either, but it is interesting that
Speaker 2: when I asked him, like about his connection to Lincoln Cemetery,
Speaker 2: he said he had no idea or hadn't been there,
Speaker 2: And it's like, but he was a historian of you know,
Speaker 2: for the negro leagues, and so it is some of
Speaker 2: the answers are interesting, but that doesn't make him a
Speaker 2: murder clearly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. I think there's a lot of bizarre
Speaker 1: people in this case that, just like I said, they
Speaker 1: made themselves look bad by doing certain things. But I
Speaker 1: have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did Anastasia ever share with you girl to girl,
Speaker 2: lady to lady what kind of products she would use
Speaker 2: when she had her period?
Speaker 1: I remember her saying that she didn't like tampons. Well,
Speaker 1: she had lost her virginity to Justin, so I remember
Speaker 1: her saying that, like, you know, she was so new
Speaker 1: to all that stuff that they were uncomfortable. I do
Speaker 1: remember her saying that, but it wasn't like a long
Speaker 1: drawn out conversation or anything.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's interesting because you know, her mom says
Speaker 2: that she didn't like blood, right, so one would think,
Speaker 2: of course, I'm just imagining this. If you don't like blood,
Speaker 2: you don't want to use a pad. And then you know,
Speaker 2: of course don Wright said at the dairy Queen that
Speaker 2: Anastagia got her period and she called her husband or
Speaker 2: her husband brought don Wright first tells kill Gore a
Speaker 2: pad that she gave Anastasia, and then at trial she
Speaker 2: changes it. She says it's a tampon. She was too
Speaker 2: embarrassed to say tampon to kill Gore, so she said pad.
Speaker 1: I think don Wright is completely full of crap on everything.
Speaker 1: I think she just doesn't.
Speaker 2: I just wonder how she was found sadly dead in
Speaker 2: a clean pad.
Speaker 1: I wish I had the answer to that, and I
Speaker 1: wish that so much stuff in this case. I wish
Speaker 1: that the case hadn't been so fumbled. I wish that
Speaker 1: they would have actually done their due diligence all that stuff,
Speaker 1: because it wouldn't have taken this. It wouldn't taken this
Speaker 1: long for the truth come out. It also wouldn't give
Speaker 1: Byron a leg to stand on all his little indiscrepancies
Speaker 1: that whatever. And I still do not understand their obsession
Speaker 1: with the phone call. Did he say we should talk
Speaker 1: about this? We shouldn't talk about this? To me? That
Speaker 1: makes that makes no difference.
Speaker 2: For the record. Did Amy McGowan have played any part
Speaker 2: in you changing your story and pointing the finger at Byron?
Speaker 2: Did she? Was there any funny business with Amy McGowan. No,
Speaker 2: I don't even remember if I talked. I think maybe
Speaker 2: I talked to her once.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Did Anastasia ever share with you any abuse that she suffered?
Speaker 1: No, but we weren'tite close enough. I don't know that
Speaker 1: she would.
Speaker 2: You had the same attorney, John O'Connor as Bob Whitblesfugen
Speaker 2: ended up having. Is there any connection there?
Speaker 1: No, because the reason I got that lawyer was because
Speaker 1: Maggie the Juggernauts alcohol counselor that I came forward to
Speaker 1: she knew him, she knew that guy through her husband,
Speaker 1: and like suggested it to my parents, I believe later on.
Speaker 1: So that's bizarre, it's a it's coincidence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you said it that You've like, you've said that
Speaker 2: you have fought credibility issues. And one of the things
Speaker 2: that Byron has said that I want to ask you
Speaker 2: about is did there was a phone call that happened
Speaker 2: where you call the police saying that Byron was suicidal?
Speaker 1: Oh? God, yes, what do you have to say about that?
Speaker 1: He's just a liar? He absolutely After I broke up
Speaker 1: with him, he was not accepting it. He was I
Speaker 1: believe he was like on drugs again. But he was
Speaker 1: like taking pain pills or something. Yeah, And he would
Speaker 1: call me and I would hang up on him, or
Speaker 1: I would tell my mom to tell him that I
Speaker 1: wasn't there. He finally got in touch with me and
Speaker 1: flat out said if I don't have you, there's no
Speaker 1: reason to go on blah blah blah and everything. And
Speaker 1: I was like, so you're threatening suicide and he said, well, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: isn't that. I don't know, Like, what are you an idiot? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Of course that's what I'm doing. So I called, yes,
Speaker 1: that happened. Why would I make that up?
Speaker 2: So what do you say to the people that think
Speaker 2: you have made up the story that Byron killed in
Speaker 2: the station?
Speaker 1: It makes no sense. It literally makes no sense. I
Speaker 1: mean why would I Why would I think I was
Speaker 1: getting immunity. I had been there, not done anything. That's
Speaker 1: about as much of an as an accomplice as you
Speaker 1: can get. People that do drugs, their nightmare is having
Speaker 1: to talk to the police, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Especially the drugs I was doing at the time, caused
Speaker 1: a lot of paranoia, a lot of it makes no sense.
Speaker 1: And get back at him for what I broke up
Speaker 1: with him. I like I said, he never gave me money,
Speaker 1: I never showered at his place. I don't know what
Speaker 1: he's He's just he's in LaVall I am.
Speaker 2: So when Jamie said that you would call the time
Speaker 2: asking for things.
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know her. I don't. I don't. The
Speaker 1: only time I've seen her is when they had her
Speaker 1: talking about me basically being a character witness for uh.
Speaker 1: Byron about me was on unlocking the truth, and I
Speaker 1: was like, who the hell is this person? So what
Speaker 1: I don't know what he's is he getting these people
Speaker 1: to just say whatever? And it's so funny that all
Speaker 1: of these friends that have all this supposed like information
Speaker 1: on me and I called all the time and blah
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, they became friends way after the fact,
Speaker 1: after I had broken up with him and stuff. I
Speaker 1: have no idea what she was talking about. I mean,
Speaker 1: are there people out there that will just lie about
Speaker 1: like a situation they know nothing about.
Speaker 2: One listener wrote in and she is a recovering addict,
Speaker 2: and she said that she had made up something for
Speaker 2: attention and that she knew that especially women as have
Speaker 2: been known to make up stories for attention.
Speaker 1: That sounds like a buyer in person pretending to be
Speaker 1: they do that stuff.
Speaker 2: Anyway, What would you say to that, Did you make
Speaker 2: up this story for attention and it got out of it,
Speaker 2: got out of it, got away from you, like you know? No,
Speaker 2: Like I said, if you make up something for attention,
Speaker 2: it's something where you're going to get sympathy, not something
Speaker 2: where you're possibly going to go to prison, and that
Speaker 2: people are going to think you're an evil piece of shit.
Speaker 2: Horton lance and is closing arguments suggested that the reason
Speaker 2: you came forward was because I think he said, like,
Speaker 2: there are two Kelley moffitts. There's one that is a
Speaker 2: drug addict and doesn't have an excuse for it, and
Speaker 2: then there's one that is a drug addict and has
Speaker 2: an excuse, and it's because she witnessed this horrible thing.
Speaker 2: And the reason you came forward is because it would
Speaker 2: be a way for your parents to accept and help
Speaker 2: you through.
Speaker 1: Your addiction and stuff like that. He well, he does
Speaker 1: not know my parents very well. That was never seen
Speaker 1: as my parents aren't like that at all. Also, that's
Speaker 1: not how recovery works. You're not like, oh you poor baby.
Speaker 1: He would have never you know, touched drugs or alcohol
Speaker 1: unless this poor thing hadn't happened to you, and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. I mean, it even says in the Big
Speaker 1: Book that people drink essentially because they like the effect
Speaker 1: produced by alcohol and a story. You can have trauma
Speaker 1: and other things that maybe you know, trigger the onset
Speaker 1: of it and everything like that. But the fact of
Speaker 1: the matter is people do drugs because they feel good,
Speaker 1: and so that doesn't have Plus, I never like my
Speaker 1: relationship with my parents. I still don't have the best
Speaker 1: relationship with my family. They did not ever say, oh,
Speaker 1: you poor thing, here come move back in the house,
Speaker 1: and here's some money and here's some button. Never, it
Speaker 1: was never like that, you know. It was just I
Speaker 1: don't know, if anything, I think it changed how they
Speaker 1: saw me, you know the fact that I didn't say
Speaker 1: anything and I let that happen and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: It was never you poor. I don't know. I don't
Speaker 1: know whose family they think they're talking about. But I
Speaker 1: was never seen as some poor like damsel in distress
Speaker 1: that just had to drink because because that's not how
Speaker 1: it works.
Speaker 2: What do you think of the affidavits that Iron's legal
Speaker 2: team has gotten, like from the judge from I mean,
Speaker 2: the judge also allegedly wrote that letter to Evelyn k saying.
Speaker 1: Like, I don't believe that letter exists.
Speaker 2: It's on It's on Instagram.
Speaker 1: If you want me to show it to you, poor Instagram, No.
Speaker 2: Mind, I can show it to you. But I mean,
Speaker 2: what do you think of the affidavits that judge Atwell,
Speaker 2: doctor Thomas Young, and Horton Lance wrote Because you heard
Speaker 2: you heard them read by actor.
Speaker 1: Okay, first of all, I think the guy that was
Speaker 1: totally on my side for instantly, and then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden changed your mind. How doctor young? Yeah, aren't
Speaker 1: these people extremely old? Now? I mean they're older? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't. I have no idea. I think
Speaker 1: here's the letter. That's the letter. I mean, I can
Speaker 1: definitely see a judge getting older and maybe a little
Speaker 1: befuddled and kind of questioning some stuff. But also, like
Speaker 1: I said, whether he said we should or we shouldn't
Speaker 1: talk about that, to me is a moot point. The
Speaker 1: fact he never denied shit is the point of that.
Speaker 1: I don't know, And Evelyn is so full of crap.
Speaker 1: Need to read any more of that. I don't know
Speaker 1: if the judge is old and confused or also, I mean,
Speaker 1: being a judge and having that power in your hands
Speaker 1: to send somebody away for the rest of their life.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're gonna second guess yourself. I'm sure you're gonna.
Speaker 1: I don't think it means much at anything. Also, he
Speaker 1: was the judge, he wasn't the jury.
Speaker 2: What do you make of the Kansas City Police crime
Speaker 2: lab now saying that they believe there could be a
Speaker 2: chance that Anastasia was lying down when she was shot.
Speaker 1: That sounds really weird to me because I was there
Speaker 1: and she was not lying down. How would you Plus also, okay,
Speaker 1: if that's true, how do you get somebody to lie
Speaker 1: down and you stick a gun literally on their nose?
Speaker 1: How do you get? What do you? Because she didn't
Speaker 1: try to get away? They said she had a contact wound. No,
Speaker 1: she was never at any point line down. And then
Speaker 1: also now that they're relying on now, also their defense
Speaker 1: changes constantly, which to me also is a red flag.
Speaker 1: They're just grasping its straws. I feel like, did you
Speaker 1: get any of the reward money? No? When I never
Speaker 1: even tried to. They tried to say that I wanted
Speaker 1: their reward money, but there was some like a loophole
Speaker 1: where I wouldn't I couldn't get it or something. Isn't
Speaker 1: that on file that I never even I didn't know
Speaker 1: about the reward money. I remember there being posters or
Speaker 1: something a long time ago, but I do not remember
Speaker 1: the whole reward money thing, and I certainly had no
Speaker 1: interest in it.
Speaker 2: Did prosecutors show you crime scene photos of Anastasia so
Speaker 2: that you could hone your story to describe how she
Speaker 2: was found?
Speaker 1: No? I've never even seen the crime photos. I'm glad
Speaker 1: that I've never seen them because that sounds horrific. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're not They're very upsetting.
Speaker 2: What do you think about the possibility that Byron could
Speaker 2: get a new trial.
Speaker 1: I'm curious as to why do we know why? Because
Speaker 1: the Jackson County Prosecutor has told me that that's about
Speaker 1: as far fetched as he does not see that happening.
Speaker 2: I mean, they definitely allege Brady violations. And this is
Speaker 2: going off of like Horton Lance's Affidavid right, So he
Speaker 2: said something like one hundred and forty emails from Bob existed,
Speaker 2: only ten were turned over. So I think all I'm
Speaker 2: saying is I think that they say that there are
Speaker 2: these Brady violations. I think that's one of the ways
Speaker 2: that they're hoping that there could be a new trial.
Speaker 2: And so your reaction to the possibility of a new trial.
Speaker 1: Is bring it. I've told I told the Jackson County prosecutor.
Speaker 1: I told Innastasia's family or whatever they need. If we
Speaker 1: need to go back to court and I testify, I
Speaker 1: have to testify against him again. I am no longer
Speaker 1: a teenager. I'm no one. I mean, no, there's the
Speaker 1: whole thing just seems ridiculous to me. They're not gonna
Speaker 1: and the first time it certainly didn't go well for him.
Speaker 1: So I'm not scared of Byron anymore. In fact, like
Speaker 1: I said, being an adult now and looking back at
Speaker 1: that relationship and stuff, I just I think he's creepy
Speaker 1: and pathetic. He'll turn into anything to anybody to try
Speaker 1: to get whatever he wants. I think if he ever
Speaker 1: got a new trial, he's gonna be very sorry. There's
Speaker 1: that girl that was threatened, the terror told, There's all
Speaker 1: kinds of other stuff.
Speaker 2: Why do you think there are so many unanswered questions
Speaker 2: for people?
Speaker 1: Well, first of all because Byron's always playing this martyr
Speaker 1: stuff where he compares himself to Damien Eckles whatever, which
Speaker 1: is completely just whatever Byron. It's also, I think because
Speaker 1: it's just so bizarre because it was literally a killing
Speaker 1: that happened for not like no gain, no financial gain,
Speaker 1: no anything. It was just that it was just like
Speaker 1: a thrill kill, like Byron always wanted to know what
Speaker 1: it was like to kill somebody. And then I don't know,
Speaker 1: what do you think do you think that's part of it?
Speaker 1: It's just so nonsensical, and then the people involved are
Speaker 1: so bizarre. Byron's extremely bizarre, and how he comes off
Speaker 1: his mom Bob. Just there's so many things that play
Speaker 1: that people are.
Speaker 2: Like, what, why do you think in Stasia was murdered?
Speaker 2: I mean, you said it's a real kill. Do you
Speaker 2: think that Justin said it in sort of a way
Speaker 2: but never meant for it to actually happen. Why do
Speaker 2: you think Anastasia was murdered?
Speaker 1: God, I wish I knew. I have no idea. I mean,
Speaker 1: like I said, I was at school and they were
Speaker 1: alone for several days together doing acid or masculine or whatever.
Speaker 1: I think she's dead because Byron always wondered what it
Speaker 1: was like to kill somebody. Justin was just sick enough
Speaker 1: to get pulled into that, because it just it makes
Speaker 1: no sense, like Justin like and she wasn't even It's
Speaker 1: not like she was dangerous and stalking him. I just
Speaker 1: I truly don't know. It reminds me a lot of
Speaker 1: do you remember this case. It's a very old true
Speaker 1: true crime case of Leopold and Lobe. There was two
Speaker 1: young rich guys. Yeah, they had just one of them
Speaker 1: had always wanted to know what it was like to
Speaker 1: kill somebody and they just I don't know, because Byron
Speaker 1: was just not And that's one of the things that
Speaker 1: made me so mad that he's using the whole oh
Speaker 1: the gothing, all the blah blah blah. No, I mean,
Speaker 1: he wasn't just goth. He was obsessed with that stuff.
Speaker 1: And that's a huge that's completely different. He told me,
Speaker 1: And I'm sorry, I apologize this is graphic or if
Speaker 1: I already said it or whatever. He said. He figured
Speaker 1: out that one of the quickest ways for him to
Speaker 1: whatever when he was masturbating was to like do it
Speaker 1: over dead animals and stuff like that. That was one
Speaker 1: of the things that he told me later. And like
Speaker 1: I said, he told me that he had participated in
Speaker 1: necrophilia and stuff. I mean, he wasn't just this wasn't
Speaker 1: just like his screensaver was this awful crime scene photo
Speaker 1: of this woman that had been hacked up. Like he
Speaker 1: it wasn't. This wasn't just somebody you know, listening to
Speaker 1: some goth music and blah blah blah. He put a
Speaker 1: rotting chicken carcass on his car and thought it was funny.
Speaker 1: He just wasn't. It was it was to a whole
Speaker 1: nother level. This wasn't a goth person. This was someone
Speaker 1: absolutely obsessed with death and control and suffering. And you
Speaker 1: know you did?
Speaker 2: You loved him? I fourteen year old side, fifteen year
Speaker 2: old self.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think I have You don't think you
Speaker 1: have the capacity for love at that age. But I
Speaker 1: I liked I liked the attention, he had a car.
Speaker 1: He made me feel better about myself after all the
Speaker 1: stuff that had happened. The more I got to know him,
Speaker 1: the less I liked him.
Speaker 2: Why did you stay with him as long as you
Speaker 2: did after the murder?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, first off, he told me that it
Speaker 1: would look really bad, it would look really weird if
Speaker 1: we instantly broke up. And also I was just scared.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do because I didn't I
Speaker 1: wasn't completely ready to come forward yet, but I had
Speaker 1: just like tremendous guilt. Also, he had been my first
Speaker 1: serious boyfriend. Justin was gone, you know, Staga was gone.
Speaker 1: I just felt trapped. And believe me, they weren't good years.
Speaker 1: He talks about me. I think it's so funny, like
Speaker 1: in his stuff about me, he's like and yet again,
Speaker 1: Kelly had been on faithful blah blah blah. He's talking
Speaker 1: like I was like a thirty five year old person
Speaker 1: that had been married to him for years but kept
Speaker 1: doing all these diabolical things. For I was fifteen and
Speaker 1: actually and I was pulling away from him, and I
Speaker 1: was finding people that were age appropriate, that were interested
Speaker 1: in me. That's not infidelity and manipulation. That's growing up
Speaker 1: and stuff and just getting It's just so weird how
Speaker 1: he sees stuff. He assigns all this stuff to me
Speaker 1: that is so calculated and so whatever, and it's not.
Speaker 1: I am not that complicated. I'm really not. How on
Speaker 1: earth did I know if I supposedly came forward to
Speaker 1: get back at him, I didn't know how that was
Speaker 1: going to go if that was my I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just so stupid. Oh oops, I put myself in prison
Speaker 1: for twenty years now. It's just crazy.
Speaker 2: How has life been for you since coming forward?
Speaker 1: Since all of this? Really, Oh god, that's a long
Speaker 1: time ago. I wish I could say it has been better.
Speaker 1: It's been I don't. It's been up and down. It's
Speaker 1: also it sucks that anytime I get involved with somebody
Speaker 1: on a very deep level, whether that be like a
Speaker 1: friend an employee, like you know, a love interest and
Speaker 1: stuff that I have to take, you know, like if
Speaker 1: you google me, this is what you're gonna find. That's
Speaker 1: been you know. But I knew, I knew that that
Speaker 1: was going to come with the territory. But it's just
Speaker 1: I still I don't think I'm ever gonna why I
Speaker 1: wrote you that in an email, I don't think I'm
Speaker 1: ever going to see myself as a good person ever again.
Speaker 1: And that was one of the reasons. That's why I
Speaker 1: wish that before coming here, I had set up where
Speaker 1: you could talk to my trauma therapist and rehab and stuff,
Speaker 1: because she just a ton of the work that she
Speaker 1: did with me was being like, it's not your fault,
Speaker 1: it's not your fault. You were fifteen, you weren't evil,
Speaker 1: you weren't blah blah. And I still don't even I
Speaker 1: don't think anybody's ever going to convince me of that.
Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, she just she was a
Speaker 1: kid who thought she was hanging out with their friends.
Speaker 1: She didn't do anything. She didn't even do anything to me.
Speaker 1: She didn't do anything to Byron other than he just
Speaker 1: didn't like her. And I think he wanted her out
Speaker 1: of the way so that he could take full advantage
Speaker 1: of Justine. I mean, I just can't just terrifying how
Speaker 1: fragile life is and how you know, I just can't.
Speaker 1: And like I said, I have a daughter who's twenty
Speaker 1: one now, and if she you know, gott in her
Speaker 1: with her friends and they just you know, just killed her.
Speaker 1: I I don't know, it's just not supposed to happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I hope you can get to a place where
Speaker 2: you do forgive yourself.
Speaker 1: I hope. I don't know. I have good days and
Speaker 1: I have bad days. Yeah, he's still of course, I
Speaker 1: don't think I'm ever not gonna have nightmarees over stuff.
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that makes me so
Speaker 1: mad too about Byron.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he used to make fun of me for alupset
Speaker 1: I was about stuff. I don't know. I don't know
Speaker 1: why he took me even, maybe he thought that was
Speaker 1: gonna bond me to him or I don't yeah, why
Speaker 1: bring you? Yeah, I'm just another leg of send I've
Speaker 1: been trying to figure that out for a really long time.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad that, you know, I came here and
Speaker 1: talked to you and stuff, but I just won Have
Speaker 1: you seen that movie that I turned all Sunshine of
Speaker 1: the Spotless Mind. I just watched that and I was
Speaker 1: just like, God, it was that was real because I've
Speaker 1: never since, you know, since all has happened when I
Speaker 1: was fourteen, I have never had a time in my
Speaker 1: life where I didn't just have this. It's a horrible
Speaker 1: sense of like guilt and dread and self loathing. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: It's okay. I should have said something. I don't know what. God,
Speaker 1: I don't know why I didn't say anything, and I
Speaker 1: also wanted to talk to you, you know, if there's
Speaker 1: anybody out there listening to this, because you know, I've
Speaker 1: seen other cases kind of similar on dateline and stuff,
Speaker 1: and I don't know, even if you think somebody's joking
Speaker 1: around about something like that, it is not normal to
Speaker 1: joke around about killing someone, you know, was I Was
Speaker 1: I what you expected at all? Or did you? Because
Speaker 1: that's one of the things too, is I just want
Speaker 1: I don't Byron and his people just portray me as
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: So I think you know I said it too from
Speaker 2: the very beginning. I think when I wrote to you
Speaker 2: more than a year ago.
Speaker 1: God, I can't believe it's been the home that.
Speaker 2: I was going into this story just looking for the truth.
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm glad you listened to all the
Speaker 2: episodes before agreeing to sit down, because it was important
Speaker 2: for you to hear that and also have confidence in
Speaker 2: what I was saying that. You know, I'm just looking
Speaker 2: for the truth. So are you what I expected? I
Speaker 2: feel like I've gotten to know you a little bit
Speaker 2: through your emails as weird as I.
Speaker 1: Mean, you've been hard on me, even though it's up
Speaker 1: and down. Yeah, well, I mean you have to realize too,
Speaker 1: We've had people with horrible like I said, like Byron's
Speaker 1: legal team would contact me and be like, well, I
Speaker 1: just want to talk for a little bit. No, they
Speaker 1: want to ambush me.
Speaker 2: I mean, I was nervous for you to come today.
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't I don't know how this
Speaker 2: is going to go. I know that I just wanted
Speaker 2: to have a conversation. Is there anything that you want
Speaker 2: to ask or say or share that I haven't asked?
Speaker 2: You do have anything you want to say to Byron?
Speaker 1: Oh? God, I think about that a lot. He can
Speaker 1: make up stories and when he's alone in his cell
Speaker 1: at night. He knows he murdered her. He knows it,
Speaker 1: he knows this is all complete crap. I just don't understand.
Speaker 1: I was always waiting for him to I don't know, something,
Speaker 1: to crack something to I mean, it's how exhausting to
Speaker 1: put up this charade for so long. I always thought
Speaker 1: maybe there was a chance that he would just accept
Speaker 1: his fate and do his time with dignity and leave
Speaker 1: her family alone. And I just don't think that. I
Speaker 1: don't wrong. Boy, was I wrong. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: he's gonna just I don't know, till the day he dies,
Speaker 1: he's gonna be just. I think he's just gonna be
Speaker 1: completely full of shit till the day dies. And to me,
Speaker 1: that's just that's terrifying that he's capable of doing that.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm interviewing. I'm doing like a final interview
Speaker 2: with his legal team tomorrow.
Speaker 1: They're in. They're infuriating me.
Speaker 2: I don't know anything you want me to say to them.
Speaker 1: Just because an investigation wasn't done perfectly and this, that
Speaker 1: and the other. And I get it as like legal
Speaker 1: people and people that want everything to go by the
Speaker 1: letter of the law. I'm sure a lot of things
Speaker 1: in this trial and uh, the investigation were really fucked up.
Speaker 1: That doesn't that I mean, that doesn't mean a person
Speaker 1: is innocent. And maybe they don't care. These aren't just
Speaker 1: laws and you know, loopholes, and these are people. These
Speaker 1: are people. I wish just as bad as they had,
Speaker 1: that you know, the investigation had gone smoother, and that
Speaker 1: that kil Gore hadn't been like lazy or whatever. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I just don't. And they they also seem
Speaker 1: to be making it more about them, like if they're
Speaker 1: going to get their name out there as like, I mean,
Speaker 1: what do they want to make a name for themselves
Speaker 1: in the legal world? Is like we I don't.
Speaker 2: Know, because they have alleged that you don't tell the truth.
Speaker 2: Have you told me the complete truth today?
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely, yeah, I don't tell the complete truth. Even
Speaker 1: though this has like I said, this is I didn't
Speaker 1: paint myself in a good light coming forward because it
Speaker 1: wasn't about that. I get Facebook messages all the time
Speaker 1: like you should have gone to prison just right along
Speaker 1: with them and stuff, and to that I say, yeah
Speaker 1: that actually, I probably my life might have been a
Speaker 1: little bit better because or I would have or something,
Speaker 1: or maybe then some of my guilt would go away
Speaker 1: because I had been punished in some way. I just don't.
Speaker 2: After Byron got arrested and was in jail, I think
Speaker 2: you called Evelyn and said to Evelyn, I should be
Speaker 2: there with him. A quick reminder in episode five, I
Speaker 2: shared what Evelyn said on the stand in two thousand
Speaker 2: and two about this. Evelyn testified about a month after
Speaker 2: Byron was arrested. Kelly called her, and the first thing
Speaker 2: Kelly said was, quote, this is insane, according to Evelyn.
Speaker 2: Kelly went on to say, quote, I'm an accomplice. I'm
Speaker 2: an accomplice. But since I told I got they gave
Speaker 2: me part immunity. Kelly also said quote I should be
Speaker 2: in jail with him, and I'm ready to go in jail.
Speaker 2: Know what you were saying is I feel as guilty.
Speaker 2: I feel guilty too, and we should both be there.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and also like I said, like, I'm why
Speaker 1: didn't you kill me too? Please? Or else? I've switched
Speaker 1: places for just any I mean, what I did was
Speaker 1: completely wrong, and that's how things like the Holocaust happen,
Speaker 1: and that's how you know, horrible things happen is when
Speaker 1: people don't say anything, or people just you know, don't
Speaker 1: want to cause the stir. They don't say anything, or
Speaker 1: they've never really done anything like that before, so whatever.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just That's another reason why I wanted
Speaker 1: to do your podcast and stuff is just say something,
Speaker 1: because if you think you're taking the easier way out
Speaker 1: by not saying something, and you have any kind of
Speaker 1: a conscience, you'll just be eating alive. What is that
Speaker 1: quote like in order for the only or one of
Speaker 1: the main ways for evil to happen is for good
Speaker 1: men to say nothing or something. Oh, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: Is there anything else that you can think of that
Speaker 2: you want to share?
Speaker 1: No, I just oh and younger girls, if there is
Speaker 1: an adult man interested in you and you know you
Speaker 1: I looked a little bit older than my age. But yeah,
Speaker 1: there's not. That is not a compliment and you should
Speaker 1: run the other direction. There's no no decent eighteen nineteen
Speaker 1: year old wants anything to do with a middle schooler.
Speaker 2: Is there anything you want to stay to Anastatia's family.
Speaker 2: I know you have a I know you have a
Speaker 2: relationship with them and you talk to them, but if
Speaker 2: they're listening.
Speaker 1: I don't know. They pretty much know where I stand.
Speaker 1: But I'm so so sorry. I'm sorry that she trusted me.
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm sorry. I haven't met any of them,
Speaker 1: and also now as a parent, like I just, I
Speaker 1: have a completely different view of Anastasia. You know, she
Speaker 1: just wanted the guy that she loved to love her back.
Speaker 1: You know, that's all she wanted. That's all anybody wants. God,
Speaker 1: I just I don't know. I just wish I could
Speaker 1: turn back down. You know, I wish if I could
Speaker 1: take her place, I definitely would, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's just no. I don't know, but there's no. It
Speaker 1: just doesn't feel like there's any type of I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: That's big enough.
Speaker 2: I'm thankful Kelly agreed to speak with me. Her side
Speaker 2: of the story needed to be heard. So the plan
Speaker 2: was that next week we were going to release our
Speaker 2: final episode, which was to include my interview with Byron
Speaker 2: and his legal team. But that was all done prior
Speaker 2: to these new revelations about Kelly's littering case, something I
Speaker 2: did not see coming. Because the story is unfolding in
Speaker 2: real time and a lot of people's lives are at stake.
Speaker 2: We are going to take another short pause. I'm going
Speaker 2: to go back to Byron to ask him about some
Speaker 2: of Kelly's allegations from our interview, and back to his
Speaker 2: legal team to ask them to explain exactly what happened
Speaker 2: with Kelly's littering charge and where do they go from here.
Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
Speaker 2: those of the individuals participating in the podcast. If you
Speaker 2: or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis,
Speaker 2: please no help is available. Call or text nine eight eight,
Speaker 2: or chat online at the Suicide and Crisis Lifelines website
Speaker 2: at nine eight eight lifeline dot org. To see photos,
Speaker 2: maps and documents related to this season's story, follow The
Speaker 2: Real Killer podcast on Instagram and at TRK podcast on TikTok.
Speaker 2: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia,
Speaker 2: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and
Speaker 2: Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, editing
Speaker 2: and sound design by Cameron Taggi, mixed and mastered by
Speaker 2: Cameron Taggie, Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam studio engineer Graham Gibson,
Speaker 2: legal counsel for A y R Media, Johnny Douglas, executive
Speaker 2: producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard