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Speaker 1: A warning.

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Speaker 2: This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide

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Speaker 2: that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If

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Speaker 2: you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to

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Speaker 2: the end of this episode to find out where help

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Speaker 2: is available. I don't want to scare you. We're on

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Speaker 2: page four of fourteen.

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Speaker 1: Oh lord, Okay.

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Speaker 2: I continue my conversation with Kelly Moffatt, who came forward

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Speaker 2: almost three years after Anastasia Whitpbules Fuchen was murdered to

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Speaker 2: say her then boyfriend Byron Case is the real killer.

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Speaker 2: I said it to you from the very beginning, I

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Speaker 2: think when I wrote to you more than a year ago.

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Speaker 1: God, I can't believe it's been them all.

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Speaker 2: That I was going into this story just looking for

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Speaker 2: the truth. I'm just looking for the truth. I'm Leah Rothman.

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Speaker 2: This is the Real Killer, Episode fourteen.

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Speaker 1: Bring it.

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Speaker 2: Before we can continue with part two of my interview

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Speaker 2: with Kelly, we must talk about something quite shocking that

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Speaker 2: has just been revealed to me. On Tuesday night, before

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Speaker 2: this Thursday episode was to come out, Kelly sends me

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Speaker 2: screenshots from her littering case. It shows that her sentence

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Speaker 2: was to pay a fine. Remember that's what she said

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Speaker 2: in the last episode. And she was really confused because

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Speaker 2: she didn't remember spending forty eight hours in jail and

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Speaker 2: getting two years probation. So I sent her the docket

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Speaker 2: I have, which includes the sentence of forty eight hours

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Speaker 2: of shock jail time and two years probation. Within minutes,

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Speaker 2: Kelly texts me that there is a case number on

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Speaker 2: the docket that doesn't match hers. At first, I don't

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Speaker 2: see what she's seeing. Then I do. I immediately look up

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Speaker 2: the other case number and it belongs to some guy

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Speaker 2: named Brendan who passed some bad checks back in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety nine. To say I am stunned and embarrassed is

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Speaker 2: a major understatement. I ask Kelly if we can talk

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Speaker 2: on the phone, and that I won't record the call.

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Speaker 1: She says yes.

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Speaker 2: One of the first things she says to me is

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Speaker 2: do you believe me? Now? While on the phone, we

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Speaker 2: both look at the other guy's docket and Kelly points

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Speaker 2: out that although there's no mention of him being sentenced

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Speaker 2: to forty eight hours shock jail time, he was sentenced

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Speaker 2: to unsupervised probation for seven hundred in thirty one days,

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Speaker 2: so basically two years and one day of probation. This

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Speaker 2: has to be a horrible clerical error, right. Kelly said, yes,

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Speaker 2: there are things she can't remember, but she remembers the

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Speaker 2: important stuff, like Byron killed Anastasia, and that she never

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Speaker 2: spent forty eight hours in jail and was given two

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Speaker 2: years probation, which makes more sense because in the last episode,

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Speaker 2: when I asked her about how she said in her

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Speaker 2: deposition she had never been in trouble with the law,

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Speaker 2: she said she didn't consider a littering charge and paying

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Speaker 2: a fine a big deal, which, by the way, there

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Speaker 2: is a separate page in her docket that says her

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Speaker 2: sentence was only to pay a fine of fourteen dollars

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Speaker 2: and ninety five cents. For someone who takes her job

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Speaker 2: very seriously and works hard to get all of the

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Speaker 2: facts correct, this is a very bad oversight on my part.

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Speaker 2: I apologize to Kelly, which she graciously accepts. She says,

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Speaker 2: this is the kind of stuff Byron's legal team has

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Speaker 2: been doing to try and discredit her. She asks me

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Speaker 2: if I think they did it on purpose or do

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Speaker 2: they just not know how to read a court docket.

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Speaker 2: I need to know what Byron's legal team is going

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Speaker 2: to say about this. Remember, they allege that Kelly came

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Speaker 2: forward because there was some behind the scenes maneuvering to

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Speaker 2: get her out of legal trouble in exchange for her

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Speaker 2: pointing the finger at Byron. Now that it's clear there

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Speaker 2: was none of that, As Kelly maintained in our last episode,

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Speaker 2: a big part of their case falls apart. I will

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Speaker 2: ask them about all of this and have that for

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Speaker 2: you in our next and final episode. Okay, getting back

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Speaker 2: to the second part of our interview, Kelly and I

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Speaker 2: now get into the nitty gritty of what she says

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Speaker 2: happened that fateful evening in Lincoln Cemetery just minutes before

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Speaker 2: Anastasia was murdered. If I understand correctly, you were sitting

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Speaker 2: in the passenger backseat. Yeah, I think you said where

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Speaker 2: was an Anastasia was standing sort of like back back

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Speaker 2: window on the driver's side, yes, and Justin was more

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Speaker 2: towards the front of the car on the driver side.

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Speaker 1: Could see him. I could definitely see Anastasia, and then

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Speaker 1: I heard the trunk pop, and then that's when I

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Speaker 1: looked over and I looked out the window. Definitely what

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Speaker 1: do you remember saying it was Okay, how do I

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Speaker 1: do this? I don't want to make noise on your table. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Say you're looking out the window. Someone's here, someone's here.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of an angle. So that's Anastasia, this is Byron.

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Speaker 2: You know what you do it out here on this table,

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Speaker 2: it's okay.

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Speaker 1: So here's Anna Stasier standing here, here's Justin, here's Byron

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Speaker 1: popping the trunk, and then they're both they're kind of

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Speaker 1: parallel to me.

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Speaker 2: So if this is the car, yeah, headlights, yes, okay, okay.

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Speaker 2: And then, in an attempt to get an understanding of

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Speaker 2: where Kelly says everyone was at the time of the murder,

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Speaker 2: on a scrap piece of paper, I draw a car

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Speaker 2: with headlights. Then I asked Kelly to show me where Justin, Anastasia,

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Speaker 2: and eventually Byron were standing. If you want to see

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Speaker 2: this very rudimentary drawing, I'm posting it on the Real

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Speaker 2: Killer Podcast Instagram page.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and then cause you yeah, here's me in the

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Speaker 1: back passenger seat, like, here's Justin standing here, here's Anne

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Speaker 1: stays you're right there, Byron pump pops the trunk and

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Speaker 1: then is like, right here, actually I should put myself

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Speaker 1: further back. It's they were at an angle, so I

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Speaker 1: could definitely see her face and everything, and when he

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Speaker 1: lifted up the gun, but it was no wonder. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know how long the gun was just because I

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Speaker 1: could see his arm left up her face blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: But you know, when something's completely parallel and they're both opaque,

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Speaker 1: it kind of blocks.

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Speaker 2: The right in line with each other.

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Speaker 1: It's like it was, it was aligned with each other,

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Speaker 1: but I could still see her face and whatnot. And

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Speaker 1: then also, my husband's one of those people that researches everything,

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Speaker 1: and he actually said he was like, well, no, because

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Speaker 1: five feet actually makes more sense because if it was

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Speaker 1: a longer gun or whatever and he had to raise

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Speaker 1: it up, the gun was probably you know, yay long,

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Speaker 1: and then it could have still really been in her face,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I don't know why they're Also also

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Speaker 1: I was a teenage girl that didn't know anything about guns.

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Speaker 1: I did the best I could with giving them the explanation.

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Kilgore, yeah, and he kept trying to get me

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Speaker 1: to commit to a length, and I'm like, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It was dusk, it was freaking to me, that's a

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Speaker 1: mute point. And of course I know in trials you

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Speaker 1: want to get everything as exact as possible, but that's

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Speaker 1: not how life works. That's just not I didn't know

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Speaker 1: anything about guns. I didn't. All I know is that

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Speaker 1: she he shot or as she fell, and then it

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Speaker 1: was a scramble like to get back in the car.

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Speaker 2: And when I do have to say after our interview,

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Speaker 2: some days later, I messaged Kelly and told her I

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Speaker 2: had a couple of follow up questions. One was regarding

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Speaker 2: the drawing. I wondered how Byron could have gotten out

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Speaker 2: of the car from the dry side and made his

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Speaker 2: way to the trunk if Justin and Anastasia were standing

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Speaker 2: right there. Did Byron go in between them? I didn't understand,

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Speaker 2: so I asked Kelly, and she sends this voice message,

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Speaker 2: believing the question came from Byron's legal team and not me.

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Speaker 1: The map is very simple to follow. I'm not going

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Speaker 1: into the whole god out of the car, all the

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Speaker 1: stupid fucking crap. I stick to my original testimony. Byron

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Speaker 1: just down up to this. I am so sick of this.

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Speaker 1: It makes me feel horrible about my entire involvement in

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Speaker 1: all this. I just I feel disgusting after talking about

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Speaker 1: all this stuff, and he could give a shit less

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Speaker 1: quit picking at maps and little Timmy Jesus Christ, you

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Speaker 1: got out of the car and you popped the trunk

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Speaker 1: and you killed her again.

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Speaker 2: I let Kelly know it was my question and not

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Speaker 2: one coming from Byron's legal team. I'm sorry my follow

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Speaker 2: up question caused her so much stress. But one more

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Speaker 2: thing that I remembered even later. Kelly said she was

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Speaker 2: sitting in the back passenger seat behind Anastasia, Byron had

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Speaker 2: been sitting behind Justin. But Byron said the opposite that

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Speaker 2: after they left the Dairy Queen and then Mount Washington Cemetery,

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Speaker 2: he was sitting in the back passenger seat behind Anastasia

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Speaker 2: and Kelly had been sitting behind Justin. I wonder who

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Speaker 2: was telling the truth. Okay, back to Kelly in our

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Speaker 2: sit down interview, I think you said when you came forward,

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Speaker 2: you said that the gun that Byron said the gun

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Speaker 2: had came from his dad's or did you say that

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Speaker 2: you said that the gun had come from his dad's.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I knew. I think I said, now,

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Speaker 1: don't quote me on this like I said, it's been

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Speaker 1: so long. I had thought that I had seen a

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Speaker 1: gun like a mountain on the wall at his dad's house,

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Speaker 1: and so I assumed that that was the gun. But

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Speaker 1: I don't you know.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get to the affidavits that they got later.

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Speaker 2: But when doctor Young says your description of anestatia being

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Speaker 2: blown backwards was Hollywood style fiction, what do you say

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Speaker 2: to that?

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Speaker 1: I don't even know they're talking about, because then the

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Speaker 1: guy on that Unlocking the Truth said that I would

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Speaker 1: have had to be a lying genius to get it

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Speaker 1: like I got it well. And what is that I

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Speaker 1: don't even understand. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I if you listen to that episode. Kelly

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Speaker 2: is referring to when doctor Thomas Young was interviewed by

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Speaker 2: Ryan Ferguson on MTV's Unlocking the Truth. I think it

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Speaker 2: was episode ten where doctor Young, you know, gives it

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Speaker 2: writes an affidavit for Byron's legal team, saying that what

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Speaker 2: you described was not forensically possible. However, on the sun

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Speaker 2: Last Thing, Yeah, Locking the Truth show, he said what

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Speaker 2: you did say made sense.

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Speaker 1: So what is that?

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Speaker 2: What do you make of a medical examiner who says

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Speaker 2: to like conflicting diametrically posed things like so that makes.

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Speaker 1: No sense to me and just shows me that they

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Speaker 1: don't know what they're talking about either, I mean, and also,

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Speaker 1: don't some of these people get paid to be expert

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Speaker 1: witnesses suddenly and stuff. I mean, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that he was, but I don't care.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is gonna sound whatever. I don't care

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Speaker 1: what they say. I know what I saw. You know,

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Speaker 1: I would love for everything to fit into all these

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Speaker 1: little perfect boxes so that everything lined up. But like

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Speaker 1: I said, if you know much about the science of memory,

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Speaker 1: that's not how stuff works. And also like I was

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Speaker 1: a kid who knew nothing about gun and nothing about

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Speaker 1: I mean, I did the best I could.

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Speaker 2: A very specific thing that you said when you came

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Speaker 2: forward forward was that Justin was yelling in German basically

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Speaker 2: stop don't do it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Had you heard them talking German to each other?

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Speaker 1: Before? Yeah? Well, like I said, help, Like to me,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty that is such specific circumstances, like how did

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Speaker 1: I make that up? You? When I make that up?

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Speaker 1: And also with all this stuff I think coming forward,

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Speaker 1: like I destroyed my own life. It was already destroyed

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Speaker 1: with all the guilt and stuff too. I had no

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Speaker 1: idea if I was going to get immunity. I was

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Speaker 1: scared to death. I didn't you know, I didn't know

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Speaker 1: if I was going to be charged with murderers. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean I almost thought that that was like what

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Speaker 1: I deserved and stuff. Idea and then also for the

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Speaker 1: rest of my life. If you google me, that is

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Speaker 1: immediately what pops up. You know, I've had people at

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Speaker 1: jobs figure it out and stuff. Why would I just

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Speaker 1: announce to the world that, you know, because of me,

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Speaker 1: someone is dead. That makes no sense to get back at.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just so stupid.

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Speaker 2: Right because it's been alleged that you were so angry

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Speaker 2: that Byron was moving to Saint Louis and leaving you,

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Speaker 2: leaving you period, whether it was like you know, because

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Speaker 2: he would give you money and showers and stuff like that, you.

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Speaker 1: Just didn't do any of that. He flat out didn't

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Speaker 1: do any of that. I wouldn't have wanted him to.

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Speaker 1: I was scared of him, and I thought he was

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Speaker 1: a piece of shit. He never I don't know where

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Speaker 1: he's even getting that.

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Speaker 2: So you did not come forward out of revenge.

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Speaker 1: Revenge for what. Sorry, I broke up with him. I

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Speaker 1: got a new boyfriend right afterwards. I got someone that

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Speaker 1: was age appropriate that I just did not want anything

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Speaker 1: to do with him anymore. Why would I care if

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Speaker 1: he moved? I mean probably a little bit, because it

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Speaker 1: was like he was not emotionally affected by any of

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Speaker 1: this and just seemed to be doing whatever. Do you

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Speaker 1: know this? Do you know that after all this, he

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Speaker 1: drove around in some hooptie with a pitchfork on his

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Speaker 1: car with a rotting chicken carcass on it. What you

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Speaker 1: need to look that up? Yeah? After and so that

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Speaker 1: was another thing that it was basically known that he

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Speaker 1: was a murderer and stuff in Westport. Yeah, No, he

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Speaker 1: thought it was funny. Okay. He literally had a pitchfork

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Speaker 1: that he welded to the front of his car that

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Speaker 1: had a rotting chicken hang off, and he drove it

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Speaker 1: around Westport and he thought it was hilarious. This is

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Speaker 1: after he'd been a suspect in her murder.

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Speaker 2: My mouth is a gape at this story, and I'm

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Speaker 2: adding it to the growing list of questions I have

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Speaker 2: for Byron. I then asked Kelly how she thought the

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Speaker 2: story Byron had allegedly concocted that Anastasia got out of

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Speaker 2: the car on Truman Road walked off, never to be

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Speaker 2: seen by any of them. Ever again, oh would hold up.

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Speaker 1: I think he thought he was smarter than the police.

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Speaker 1: I think he definitely thought he was smarter than me.

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Speaker 1: That's why I think he whatever the tacit admission shit

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Speaker 1: is is because I thought I mean, I think he

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Speaker 1: thought that he had me geared and I was never

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Speaker 1: going to come forward and do anything. And you know,

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Speaker 1: and now I've said, like, just fuck him. I don't

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Speaker 1: I rarely or not rarely, I never say that I

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Speaker 1: hate people. But he's a pretty I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: even have sympathy for him, like I said, because that

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Speaker 1: driving around you know where her sisters can see with

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Speaker 1: a rotting chicken on your car, his little license plates

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Speaker 1: that said morbid and said atheist and blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: But it was basically like he was taunting whatever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he definitely thought that he was the smartest guy in

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Speaker 1: the room. He also thought he was the most interesting

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Speaker 1: guy in the room. He thought a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: I don't know where he ever got that idea.

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Speaker 2: In the time between you coming forward and the June fifth,

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Speaker 2: two thousand and one recorded call, the TUSSED mission call. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: what was life like for you during those months?

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Speaker 1: It was stressful. I was afraid, because that's another thing.

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Speaker 1: He's like, Oh, she was stalking me, she knew my

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Speaker 1: number here, she knew my number there, blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: The police gave me those numbers so I could call

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Speaker 1: him and try to get him to admit to something

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Speaker 1: over the phone. Yeah, that was really really stressful because

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Speaker 1: I knew that, you know, the case hung on that,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just so sick of the whole like, did

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Speaker 1: he say we shouldn't talk about this? Did he say

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Speaker 1: we should talk about it? The whole point is that

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Speaker 1: he didn't say, you crazy bitch. I didn't kill her.

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Speaker 1: I mean he didn't even. In fact, he sat there

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Speaker 1: and listened to me ramble for a very long time.

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Speaker 1: He's just I can't believe these people believe this shit

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Speaker 1: that he's saying. It's just so stupid. It's not I

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Speaker 1: don't know.

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Speaker 2: I asked more about the circumstances surrounding the June fifth

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Speaker 2: recorded phone call. Do you remember why you felt like

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Speaker 2: tonight like I'm gonna try again while Angie's here.

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Speaker 1: It was just out of desperation because the deadline was

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Speaker 1: getting more and more. What deadline to call him and

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Speaker 1: get him to admit to something. I mean, not really deadline.

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Speaker 1: They had just that thing had been hooked up in

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Speaker 1: my house for a very long time, and I hadn't

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Speaker 1: had any I think it was just summoning in touch

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Speaker 1: with him. But then I remember that someone had informed

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Speaker 1: me that they thought that he was back at his

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Speaker 1: mom's house, and so I was just like, Okay, one

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Speaker 1: more time, let's try to you know. And did you

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Speaker 1: also notice with him supposedly saying that he gave me

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Speaker 1: money and helped me shower and stuff, he never once

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Speaker 1: in that conversation and was like, look, I can't give

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Speaker 1: you any more money, I can't blah blah blah, stop

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Speaker 1: calling me about that, none of that.

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Speaker 2: Had you ever asked him point blank like why did

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Speaker 2: you like like you did on that call, Why did

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Speaker 2: you feel the need to kill her? Had you ever

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Speaker 2: asked him that before?

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Speaker 1: Not in the exact way, but yeah, I had definitely

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Speaker 1: said before, like that night where he like pinned me

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Speaker 1: up against the wall but my neck when I confronted

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Speaker 1: him about being a murderer. I was like, where on earth? Like,

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Speaker 1: how did you guys even start talking about this? I'm like,

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Speaker 1: Justin was not that type of person, Like he just was.

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Speaker 1: He was very lost. Like I said, I think he

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Speaker 1: was very mentally ill. But also Justin didn't his screensaver wasn't,

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Speaker 1: you know, crime scene photos and stuff. And Byron had

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Speaker 1: also told me stuff. This was another reason why I

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Speaker 1: thought he was full of crap. He had told me

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Speaker 1: that he participated in necrophilia and all kinds of stuff before,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, okay, I just didn't Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a sixteen year old had access to it. I don't

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Speaker 1: know he.

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Speaker 2: Just what did you? I steer Kelly back to the

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Speaker 2: June fifth TACIT admission phone call. There supposedly was some

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Speaker 2: plane closed law enforcement person there. Who was that person?

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Speaker 1: I do not remember that. I was drinking a lot

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Speaker 1: back then, and she was drinking a lot back then.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to speak for her, but we were

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Speaker 1: both drinking that night, so I don't know how clear

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Speaker 1: her memory of that is either or if that was.

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Speaker 1: You know, people can be very suggestible. I don't remember

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Speaker 1: a plane closed in anybody.

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Speaker 2: Because it was the end, Like night that you called him,

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Speaker 2: So that would be very late to have something now.

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Speaker 1: And it's sure as hell wasn't Amy McGowan whatever they're

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Speaker 1: trying to say. I just remember it was not Amy McGowan. No,

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Speaker 1: hell no.

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Speaker 2: Amy McGowan was the first prosecutor on the case. We

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Speaker 2: talked about her in episode ten.

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Speaker 1: From my recollection. There was no plane, clothes, anybody there.

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Speaker 1: And because I had tried so many times and was

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Speaker 1: unable to get in touch with him that I think

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Speaker 1: that they thought maybe it was like a lost cause.

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Speaker 2: Do you think he knew he was being recorded?

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Speaker 1: I think he uh suspected it because, like I said,

359
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Speaker 1: he did. I didn't want anything to do with him

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Speaker 1: at all, and he knew that, So why on earth

361
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Speaker 1: would I be calling him other than something. I definitely

362
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Speaker 1: think he's thought maybe something was going on because he

363
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Speaker 1: barely said me. But then also, okay, if there was all,

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Speaker 1: this is another thing that doesn't make any sense to

365
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Speaker 1: me either about like what his legal team says. If

366
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Speaker 1: there was nothing to that, why did he keep wanting

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Speaker 1: to meet in person and talk about it but not

368
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Speaker 1: on the phone. The Jackson County prosecutor wouldn't let me

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Speaker 1: go because they were afraid he was going to kill me.

370
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Speaker 2: Yeah, because he wanted to meet the next day at

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Speaker 2: Loose Park, right, Yeah, he wanted to meet.

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Speaker 1: Alone, like in you know, some kind of deserted part

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Speaker 1: of the park, and they were like absolutely not.

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Speaker 2: If you had been allowed to go meet Byron the

375
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Speaker 2: next day at the park. How did you imagine that

376
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Speaker 2: conversation going. What did I think what actually happened. Definitely

377
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Speaker 2: thought that he would try to threaten me or kill me,

378
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Speaker 2: or maybe he really would say, look the store, not

379
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Speaker 2: that complicated. I told you, We told you know, she

380
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Speaker 2: got out of the car here at Truman Road and

381
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Speaker 2: she blah blah blah, you know something like that. Do

382
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Speaker 2: you remember how you felt after that call ended.

383
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Speaker 1: I was very relieved that I had gotten in contact

384
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Speaker 1: with him, but I was also very very nervous because

385
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Speaker 1: he had been over to my parents' house like countless times,

386
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Speaker 1: and I know that he knew where they lived. I

387
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Speaker 1: was also wondering if he was gonna skip town before

388
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Speaker 1: they got a chance to arrest him. Yeah, just a

389
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Speaker 1: fear of retaliation and all kinds of stuff.

390
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 2: How did you feel when you learned that he had

391
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Speaker 2: been arrested?

392
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Speaker 1: Very relieved, But I also knew that unless they literally

393
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Speaker 1: I knew his type of personality, unless they literally showed

394
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Speaker 1: him a video of him killing her. I was like,

395
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Speaker 1: he's just gonna He's been lying for so long, his

396
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: entire life and persona is a lie, that he's just

397
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 1: gonna you know, that's all he's gonna do, because for him,

398
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Speaker 1: that's no big deal.

399
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: Is the next time you see him at trial?

400
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,719
Speaker 1: Yes? And what was that like? That was kind of

401
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: interesting because I was afraid that I was gonna be

402
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: more scared of him. I was extremely angry. I was

403
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: just like, you're not because, like I said, like I've

404
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: just felt I'm like, like, you don't even have enough

405
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: dignity to maybe. I mean, he could have pled guilty

406
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: to manslaughter, he could have done anything. I was just like,

407
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: you're this fucking arrogant that you're gonna make her family

408
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: and Justin's family go through all this. But of course,

409
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Speaker 1: because that's that's who he was, that's who he is.

410
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 2: When you were on the stand, did you look over

411
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: at Byron, did you lock eyes?

412
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Speaker 1: I'd glanced at him, but no, I don't think so,

413
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: because for me, that just it wasn't about him. Anymore.

414
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: It was about Anastasia. And I was pissed, and I

415
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Speaker 1: just I don't know. It was like something took over.

416
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Speaker 2: When he When Byron is convicted and sentenced to life

417
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 2: in prison, how do you feel, how did you feel good?

418
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Speaker 1: And I was also extremely mad because, like I said,

419
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Speaker 1: by that point, I had found out that he had

420
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: told Brum, he told Tara he'd told all this stuff.

421
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: And I was like, and none of you people are

422
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: gonna say shit. And I was, like, I said, I

423
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: was flabbergasted that all these people older than me that

424
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 1: knew about this were still sticking to their guns on

425
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 1: the bullshit story or whatever.

426
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: I asked Abraham about these allegations that Byron had confessed

427
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: to and Tara that he killed Anastasia. Abraham says, this

428
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 2: quote that is absolutely a lie. Tara always expressed to

429
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: me a belief that Byron was innocent. I don't believe

430
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 2: she would ever cover for Anastasia's murderer. She and Anastasia

431
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: were really close. I obviously can't speak for her, but

432
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: I can say for certain that Byron never told me

433
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: anything other than he was innocent. But Kelly says she

434
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 2: was present for at least one strange interaction between Byron

435
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: and Tarah.

436
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: This was one particular I don't know if I've told

437
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: you this before, but you know, he told Tara McDowell

438
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: and she ended up dying. But there was one particular

439
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: time where Byron kind of just out of the blue,

440
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: which is another thing where, like I said, I think

441
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: he just thought he was so much smarter than me

442
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: and whatever. He took me with him over to Tara's apartment.

443
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: I believe Tara and that stupid Braven guy were there.

444
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: He said that he didn't think that Tara had heard

445
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: about Anastasia's death yet and that she needed to hear

446
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: about it from a friend. But the whole I'm like,

447
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: why do I need to be here? Because I barely

448
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:34,719
Speaker 1: knew Tara whatsoever. I didn't particularly like her either, and

449
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: the whole thing just felt very set up, very whatever.

450
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: It felt very theatrical, and of course she put on

451
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: this big performance when he told her that Anastasia was dead.

452
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: She was like, hold on, I just need a second,

453
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, and she went into the back bedroom

454
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: and Byron just had this like shit, a grin, like

455
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: good job, Tara. That was a great performance type thing,

456
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: and then she came back, and the whole time I

457
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: was like, he's wanting me to see this, like there's

458
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: no way, like this girl knows this. And then yeah,

459
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: it turns out that I was right. There was a

460
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: lot of stuff like that.

461
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 2: Did you share any of that with Teresa Crayon or

462
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: Amy McGowan at the time that Iron had told other people?

463
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: Because I don't think that ever came out a trial.

464
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: I don't think that I had much information on that

465
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: at the time. There was speculation and stuff, But yeah,

466
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: it was later on that I found out, you know.

467
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: But I also knew that the girl that had been

468
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: threatened and roughed up wanted absolutely nothing to do with

469
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: the situation because she was scared.

470
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this question, why do you think

471
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 2: Byron felt comfortable moving away to Saint Louis knowing that

472
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: you could have very well gone and spilt the beans.

473
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: Like you said, the smartest person in the room, and

474
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: like I said, he used to always tell me like,

475
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: you're just as guilty as I am, blah blah blah.

476
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: I think he didn't think that I had like the

477
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: guts to do it, and I also think that he

478
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: thought he had more control over me than he did,

479
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: which to me is pretty laughable.

480
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: When you first came forward, I think you said that

481
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 2: the gun was dumped close ish to Lincoln Cemetery, and

482
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 2: then when you went out with Kilgore, it seemed to

483
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 2: be further away. Any thing you want to say about

484
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: that or yesterday I was.

485
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: Talking to my husband about that, and he goes, I

486
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: bet you anything that you would have found that gun

487
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: if you had come forward right away, if it would

488
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: have been like the day after or whatever. Yeah, right,

489
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: but it was three years later. Yeah, I just think

490
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: that it was. And also at that point in time

491
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: when they were driving around and getting rod of the gun,

492
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: I didn't even drive. You know, I wasn't old enough

493
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: to drive, so I didn't have any I wasn't paying

494
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: attention to roads or anything like that.

495
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, help me understand the call that Byron and Justin

496
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: asked you to make from the gas station by your house,

497
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: because it seems like Anastasia thought the plan was to

498
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 2: meet at Mount Washington, right, That's what she told her stepmom, Diane,

499
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: I need to ride to Mount Washington. She went to

500
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: Mount Washington. Other people saw her there. She'd as this

501
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 2: couple who is test driving a car, Like, Hey, what

502
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: time is it. I'm supposed to meet my boyfriend. He's

503
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 2: not shown up, But you said that you needed to

504
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: call her to stay to meet at the dairy queen.

505
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: Can you explain that call to me? Yeah, I don't

506
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: remember a lot of it. I just remember Justin Justin

507
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 2: wanting me to do it, because he said like Anastasia

508
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: was like already pissed about how late they were, and

509
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: like he didn't think that she would take his call

510
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: or something. There was some reason. Yeah, but I do

511
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: know that I definitely made the call. That's another thing, like.

512
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: Why didn't Kilbo Kilgoar pull the records from that payphone?

513
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: Franzas that Justin called from a gas station in Lenexa,

514
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: wondering if Anastasia was still there or if Anastasia was there. Yeah,

515
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: and Frand say anything about talking with you. So it's like,

516
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to figure out when that call took place.

517
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: Do you remember or do you know for sure that

518
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: you called the house?

519
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: I thought that I called the house and I thought

520
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: Anastasia answered, But I don't know. That's one of those

521
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: things just been too long.

522
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: What do you make of don Rand the night mechanic

523
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: at the Amico station saying that he saw Anastasia that night.

524
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: Get out of the car and all that stuff. I

525
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: don't know, Like I said, I've just since listening to

526
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: various doctors talk about that, and Ted talks about like

527
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: memory and eyewitnesses, And I'm not talking about eyewitnesses like

528
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: me who knew everybody involved and blah blah blah, just

529
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: eyewitnesses like complete strangers off the street. I don't know.

530
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: I think people can convince are very suggestible, maybe also

531
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: want to be involved in something exciting that I don't know,

532
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: maybe trying to get brownie points with the cops or something.

533
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, because that has never made any sense

534
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: to me. I mean, that just floored me. Me and

535
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: Byron were like they're like, yeah, they found the guy

536
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: that says that she got out of like a And

537
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: I was like, she ever, we weren't ever even on

538
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: that road, Like what are you talking about? And that

539
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 1: made me see how hard it probably is to solve

540
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: crimes with all the misinformation and disinformation and stuff. Yeah, So, just.

541
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: For the record, Anastasia never got out of the car

542
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: on Truman Road.

543
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not.

544
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: No, Why do you think Bob involved himself so much

545
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: in the investigation and did you know how much he

546
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 2: involved himself until you listened to And it's only a

547
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: drop in the bucket. Obviously we couldn't include everything. But

548
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: did you know how much Bob involved himself in the instigation?

549
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 1: Not? Really? No, What was the second part of the question,

550
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: what did you think about it? I just think, God,

551
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: I feel bad saying I just think Bob is nuts, honestly,

552
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: and I think maybe it was out of horrendous guilt,

553
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: because you know, he the girl's mom. She said she

554
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: divorced him for being so abusive and stuff. I don't know.

555
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: I think a lot of Bob's theories and Bob's whatever

556
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: were born out of guilt. We're born out of like

557
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 1: his own mental illness, I mean, and then obviously looking

558
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: at what he was charged with later, which I don't

559
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: even I know nothing about that and don't really care to.

560
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: I just think he's like a very odd duck and

561
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: maybe can't tell the difference between reality and whatever.

562
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 2: That Deputy Eperson, the one who actually found Anastasia, found

563
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 2: Bob at the exact same spot where her body was found.

564
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: And you know that Deputy Eperson found it very strange

565
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 2: and wrote that four page it is suspicious.

566
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

567
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 2: It's also interesting to me that kil Gore had learned

568
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: a lot of things about Bob during the course of

569
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: the investigation, and really it didn't seem like he followed

570
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 2: up on any of it. Yeah, I mean, when there

571
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: was when everyone was still considered a suspect, right, one

572
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 2: would think that Bob would be somebody at least check

573
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: out the alibi, you know, So it seems like a

574
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 2: lot of stuff didn't happen. When you heard that Bob

575
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 2: had insurance policies out on Anastasia, that.

576
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: Was shocking, But then it also was hardly any money.

577
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I just like I said, lots

578
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: of Bob's actions don't make much sense to me.

579
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: For the record, But around what time was Anastasia killed?

580
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I definitely know, I do you remember it

581
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: was definitely dark enough to wear people had headlights on,

582
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: but it was bright enough to where I could see

583
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,439
Speaker 1: them out and see what happened without like there being

584
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: like floodlights out there. Honestly, I don't know. I would

585
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: say I stick to my original testimony because I remember

586
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: I wasn't late for my funeral, not my funeral. I'm

587
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: sorry I wasn't late for my curfew, so yeah, but

588
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: I don't really, But.

589
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: It couldn't have been the eleven thirty at night when

590
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: Bob said he heard that gunshot.

591
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 1: No no, no, no, and that's another very bizarre thing,

592
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: like what and then he says he knew his daughter

593
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: was dad when he heard the man couldn't have made

594
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: himself look any worse. I mean, it was just very strange.

595
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, there's no way it was eleven thirty.

596
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 2: So I'm sure you heard that. Byron's legal team thinks

597
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 2: that there was maybe some weirdness because you and Bob

598
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: had You wrote that first email to Bob, and then

599
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 2: there was some exchange email exchanges, and then there was

600
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: talk of getting together. Did you ever get together with Bob?

601
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: No?

602
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 2: Did you talking with Bob at all, even via email,

603
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 2: have anything to do with you coming forward and pointing

604
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 2: the finger at Byron.

605
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: Well, I pointed the finger at Byron because he did it.

606
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: I also one of the main reasons that I wanted

607
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: to talk to Bob with Bolsfugen was because I did

608
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: not want him thinking that I had any part in

609
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 1: those rude, awful emails Byron was sending to him. I

610
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: didn't even know. I mean like I wanted to make

611
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: sure that he knew that that was not how I

612
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: felt that. I thought Byron was just being a complete

613
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 1: asshole and very cruel to all their family. Yeah. It

614
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: was also once again I was hoping that maybe I

615
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: would get alone with him and he would be like, Kelly,

616
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: come on, just tell me. You know. I figured if

617
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: he got emotional and was asking me to tell him

618
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: the truth, that I would definitely tell him.

619
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 2: I mean, from everything you're saying, it feels and sounds

620
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 2: like you're basically just begging people to just ask.

621
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: More and yes or get yeah, anything, get confrontational with

622
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: me anything. It was so weird. I'm like, why were

623
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: people just believing all this stuff? Well, like I said,

624
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: there's we made a story up out of well, Byron

625
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: made a story about of thin air that she got

626
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: out of the car and blam, there's an employee saying

627
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 1: it happened. I mean, I was just like, what am

628
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: I in the Twilight Zone? I just wanted to someone.

629
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 1: I was like, please ask the right questions.

630
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: How how did Byron come up with that story? And

631
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: was it like easy to come up with that story

632
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 2: or did it take some time to be like, you know,

633
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 2: so what do we do? We say, like, you guys

634
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: got into a fight, Like how how did the how

635
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 2: did that story evolve and.

636
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: Come to be? It seemed like it happened pretty damn fast.

637
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: Maybe Byron had been thinking about it all day, But

638
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: to me, it was just like he was like, all right,

639
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: you guys, here's the plan. Everybody knows ya stage is

640
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: like hot headed, blah blah blah. And it was true

641
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: that she'd thrown the ring at him a couple of times,

642
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: the engagement ring or or the engagement ring or whatever. Yeah, yeah,

643
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: it just to me it seemed like he uh thought

644
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: it up pretty quickly. But they were alone for days

645
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: and days before that, so maybe it was he'd probably

646
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: had it planned for quite some time. What a weird story, though,

647
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 1: I don't know. I always thought the story sounded ridiculous

648
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: and that I was like, there's no way they're going

649
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: to come. They're going to come arrest us all. I

650
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: don't know.

651
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: So when you heard John and Elizabeth Fisher in episode

652
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,919
Speaker 2: twelve talk about how Bob had told John that he

653
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: saw Anastasia out on Truman Road that night or out

654
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 2: that night, and he tried to get her in the

655
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 2: car and she wouldn't get in the car. What did

656
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 2: you think when you heard them?

657
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: Bob was nuts that maybe he felt so guilty that

658
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: he wanted to put more of the blame on himself

659
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: to other people also just that maybe I'm like, maybe

660
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: he's just one of those, Maybe he's a pathological liar,

661
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: Maybe he just embellishes stuff, because why on earth would

662
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: you add that? I have no idea. I mean, he

663
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: was his own worst enemy throughout this entire thing, and

664
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: it made sense. Plus, so I'm like, he's hindering the

665
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: investigation that he supposedly wants done so badly. I know

666
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: Bob did not kill her, because I was there when

667
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: Byron killed her, But I mean, like, what is he doing?

668
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: I mean, Bob back then believed that Anastasia went home

669
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 2: that night. Patrick Rock still to this day thinks Anastasia

670
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 2: went home that night. What do you think about that?

671
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: I have thought about that so much over the years,

672
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I don't trust my own memory.

673
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: I have had vague things where I thought that I

674
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: remember her being mad because she bled through onto her

675
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: pants because Justin was so late and maybe wanted us

676
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: to go by there. But I don't know if that

677
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: was something put into my head by hearing stuff or what.

678
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: I just don't You.

679
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 2: Don't have a clear memory memory of You don't know

680
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 2: if if you guys went back to Anastasia's house that night.

681
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: I don't, And I know on the stand I said

682
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: we didn't, So then that makes me think that that's

683
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: the truth. I just don't know. It's just it's been

684
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 1: so long, and like I said, when you're I've been

685
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: intact with Anastasia's friends and family off and on for

686
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: so such a long time, and we've talked about different

687
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 1: theories and stuff that I just don't you know for

688
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: the most part, And like I stick to my testimony

689
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: because Gil can do so much to you and make

690
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: you just I don't know. Your memory can warp, and

691
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of drugs and alcohol and stuff

692
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: I just don't trust saying either way definitively, have you.

693
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: Ever seen Anastasia wear blue jeans and socks and sandals?

694
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: No socks was santos? Hell? No?

695
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: What did you think when you heard that a stun

696
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: gun had been found on Annis Station's bed.

697
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: Oh, I wasn't surprised because I knew that Justin and

698
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: Byron had gotten it's a taser of the same thing

699
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 1: as a stun gun. Yeah, yeah, I knew that they

700
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: had gotten stuff and taste homeless people. Byron was really

701
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: cruel and he would do all kinds of stuff. I

702
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: remember there was this very very overrate homeless guy called

703
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: Everybody called the Slug that would be in Westport and

704
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 1: Byron would give him like twenty or thirty dollars to

705
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: do jumping jacks in front of a group of people,

706
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: and it was bad. The guy would wheeze and stuff

707
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: and could barely do it. Disgusted by that. Just the

708
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: longer I was with him, the more just it was

709
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: just gross. He got off on humiliating people and all

710
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: kinds of things. Yeah.

711
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: Did you know anything about Anastasia and Patrick Rock's relationship?

712
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: When did you meet Patrick.

713
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: Rock after her death? Definitely? I can't remember if it

714
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: was at the funeral or what. I just had known

715
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: it was like a friend of the family. I knew

716
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: it was her godfather. I remember her and Justin having

717
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: plans like to go out to lunch with him, and stuff.

718
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: I've gotten to know him fairly well after everything, and

719
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: you know, keeping in touch with the family and everything,

720
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: and I think he helps run that, like Stasia dot

721
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:40,479
Speaker 1: Org thing.

722
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 2: He changed his phone number the next day. There's he

723
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with Anastasia's murder.

724
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: No, once again, he's just he's a very odd duck. Patrick.

725
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: If you're listening to this, I'm sorry. I just think

726
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: he's on the spectrum and kind of I think it

727
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with anything.

728
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't either, but it is interesting that

729
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 2: when I asked him, like about his connection to Lincoln Cemetery,

730
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 2: he said he had no idea or hadn't been there,

731
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 2: And it's like, but he was a historian of you know,

732
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 2: for the negro leagues, and so it is some of

733
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 2: the answers are interesting, but that doesn't make him a

734
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 2: murder clearly.

735
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. I think there's a lot of bizarre

736
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: people in this case that, just like I said, they

737
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: made themselves look bad by doing certain things. But I

738
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: have nothing to do with it.

739
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, did Anastasia ever share with you girl to girl,

740
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 2: lady to lady what kind of products she would use

741
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 2: when she had her period?

742
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: I remember her saying that she didn't like tampons. Well,

743
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: she had lost her virginity to Justin, so I remember

744
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 1: her saying that, like, you know, she was so new

745
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: to all that stuff that they were uncomfortable. I do

746
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,479
Speaker 1: remember her saying that, but it wasn't like a long

747
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: drawn out conversation or anything.

748
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: I mean, that's interesting because you know, her mom says

749
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: that she didn't like blood, right, so one would think,

750
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 2: of course, I'm just imagining this. If you don't like blood,

751
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 2: you don't want to use a pad. And then you know,

752
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: of course don Wright said at the dairy Queen that

753
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 2: Anastagia got her period and she called her husband or

754
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 2: her husband brought don Wright first tells kill Gore a

755
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 2: pad that she gave Anastasia, and then at trial she

756
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: changes it. She says it's a tampon. She was too

757
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 2: embarrassed to say tampon to kill Gore, so she said pad.

758
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 1: I think don Wright is completely full of crap on everything.

759
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: I think she just doesn't.

760
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 2: I just wonder how she was found sadly dead in

761
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 2: a clean pad.

762
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: I wish I had the answer to that, and I

763
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: wish that so much stuff in this case. I wish

764
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: that the case hadn't been so fumbled. I wish that

765
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 1: they would have actually done their due diligence all that stuff,

766
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: because it wouldn't have taken this. It wouldn't taken this

767
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: long for the truth come out. It also wouldn't give

768
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: Byron a leg to stand on all his little indiscrepancies

769
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: that whatever. And I still do not understand their obsession

770
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,919
Speaker 1: with the phone call. Did he say we should talk

771
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: about this? We shouldn't talk about this? To me? That

772
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: makes that makes no difference.

773
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 2: For the record. Did Amy McGowan have played any part

774
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 2: in you changing your story and pointing the finger at Byron?

775
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: Did she? Was there any funny business with Amy McGowan. No,

776
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 2: I don't even remember if I talked. I think maybe

777
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 2: I talked to her once.

778
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: I don't know.

779
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 2: Did Anastasia ever share with you any abuse that she suffered?

780
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: No, but we weren'tite close enough. I don't know that

781
00:48:58,400 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: she would.

782
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 2: You had the same attorney, John O'Connor as Bob Whitblesfugen

783
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 2: ended up having. Is there any connection there?

784
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: No, because the reason I got that lawyer was because

785
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: Maggie the Juggernauts alcohol counselor that I came forward to

786
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 1: she knew him, she knew that guy through her husband,

787
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: and like suggested it to my parents, I believe later on.

788
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: So that's bizarre, it's a it's coincidence.

789
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you said it that You've like, you've said that

790
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 2: you have fought credibility issues. And one of the things

791
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: that Byron has said that I want to ask you

792
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 2: about is did there was a phone call that happened

793
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 2: where you call the police saying that Byron was suicidal?

794
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: Oh? God, yes, what do you have to say about that?

795
00:49:55,080 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: He's just a liar? He absolutely After I broke up

796
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 1: with him, he was not accepting it. He was I

797
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: believe he was like on drugs again. But he was

798
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: like taking pain pills or something. Yeah, And he would

799
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: call me and I would hang up on him, or

800
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: I would tell my mom to tell him that I

801
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: wasn't there. He finally got in touch with me and

802
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 1: flat out said if I don't have you, there's no

803
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: reason to go on blah blah blah and everything. And

804
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: I was like, so you're threatening suicide and he said, well, yeah, exactly,

805
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: isn't that. I don't know, Like, what are you an idiot? Yeah?

806
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: Of course that's what I'm doing. So I called, yes,

807
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: that happened. Why would I make that up?

808
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 2: So what do you say to the people that think

809
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 2: you have made up the story that Byron killed in

810
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 2: the station?

811
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: It makes no sense. It literally makes no sense. I

812
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: mean why would I Why would I think I was

813
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 1: getting immunity. I had been there, not done anything. That's

814
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: about as much of an as an accomplice as you

815
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: can get. People that do drugs, their nightmare is having

816
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: to talk to the police, you know what I mean.

817
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: Especially the drugs I was doing at the time, caused

818
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: a lot of paranoia, a lot of it makes no sense.

819
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: And get back at him for what I broke up

820
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:43,280
Speaker 1: with him. I like I said, he never gave me money,

821
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: I never showered at his place. I don't know what

822
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: he's He's just he's in LaVall I am.

823
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 2: So when Jamie said that you would call the time

824
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: asking for things.

825
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know her. I don't. I don't. The

826
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,760
Speaker 1: only time I've seen her is when they had her

827
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: talking about me basically being a character witness for uh.

828
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: Byron about me was on unlocking the truth, and I

829
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: was like, who the hell is this person? So what

830
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what he's is he getting these people

831
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: to just say whatever? And it's so funny that all

832
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: of these friends that have all this supposed like information

833
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: on me and I called all the time and blah

834
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, they became friends way after the fact,

835
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 1: after I had broken up with him and stuff. I

836
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,839
Speaker 1: have no idea what she was talking about. I mean,

837
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,720
Speaker 1: are there people out there that will just lie about

838
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: like a situation they know nothing about.

839
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 2: One listener wrote in and she is a recovering addict,

840
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 2: and she said that she had made up something for

841
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 2: attention and that she knew that especially women as have

842
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: been known to make up stories for attention.

843
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: That sounds like a buyer in person pretending to be

844
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: they do that stuff.

845
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: Anyway, What would you say to that, Did you make

846
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 2: up this story for attention and it got out of it,

847
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 2: got out of it, got away from you, like you know? No,

848
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 2: Like I said, if you make up something for attention,

849
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 2: it's something where you're going to get sympathy, not something

850
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 2: where you're possibly going to go to prison, and that

851
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 2: people are going to think you're an evil piece of shit.

852
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 2: Horton lance and is closing arguments suggested that the reason

853
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 2: you came forward was because I think he said, like,

854
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 2: there are two Kelley moffitts. There's one that is a

855
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 2: drug addict and doesn't have an excuse for it, and

856
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 2: then there's one that is a drug addict and has

857
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 2: an excuse, and it's because she witnessed this horrible thing.

858
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,479
Speaker 2: And the reason you came forward is because it would

859
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,399
Speaker 2: be a way for your parents to accept and help

860
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 2: you through.

861
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: Your addiction and stuff like that. He well, he does

862
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 1: not know my parents very well. That was never seen

863
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 1: as my parents aren't like that at all. Also, that's

864
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: not how recovery works. You're not like, oh you poor baby.

865
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: He would have never you know, touched drugs or alcohol

866
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 1: unless this poor thing hadn't happened to you, and stuff

867
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 1: like that. I mean, it even says in the Big

868
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: Book that people drink essentially because they like the effect

869
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: produced by alcohol and a story. You can have trauma

870
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 1: and other things that maybe you know, trigger the onset

871
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 1: of it and everything like that. But the fact of

872
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,959
Speaker 1: the matter is people do drugs because they feel good,

873
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: and so that doesn't have Plus, I never like my

874
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: relationship with my parents. I still don't have the best

875
00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 1: relationship with my family. They did not ever say, oh,

876
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: you poor thing, here come move back in the house,

877
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: and here's some money and here's some button. Never, it

878
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 1: was never like that, you know. It was just I

879
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: don't know, if anything, I think it changed how they

880
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: saw me, you know the fact that I didn't say

881
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: anything and I let that happen and stuff like that.

882
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: It was never you poor. I don't know. I don't

883
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: know whose family they think they're talking about. But I

884
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: was never seen as some poor like damsel in distress

885
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 1: that just had to drink because because that's not how

886
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: it works.

887
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 2: What do you think of the affidavits that Iron's legal

888
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 2: team has gotten, like from the judge from I mean,

889
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 2: the judge also allegedly wrote that letter to Evelyn k saying.

890
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,240
Speaker 1: Like, I don't believe that letter exists.

891
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 2: It's on It's on Instagram.

892
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: If you want me to show it to you, poor Instagram, No.

893
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 2: Mind, I can show it to you. But I mean,

894
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 2: what do you think of the affidavits that judge Atwell,

895
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 2: doctor Thomas Young, and Horton Lance wrote Because you heard

896
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 2: you heard them read by actor.

897
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: Okay, first of all, I think the guy that was

898
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: totally on my side for instantly, and then all of

899
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:21,760
Speaker 1: a sudden changed your mind. How doctor young? Yeah, aren't

900
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: these people extremely old? Now? I mean they're older? Yeah,

901
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't. I have no idea. I think

902
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: here's the letter. That's the letter. I mean, I can

903
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: definitely see a judge getting older and maybe a little

904
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: befuddled and kind of questioning some stuff. But also, like

905
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 1: I said, whether he said we should or we shouldn't

906
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: talk about that, to me is a moot point. The

907
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 1: fact he never denied shit is the point of that.

908
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, And Evelyn is so full of crap.

909
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 1: Need to read any more of that. I don't know

910
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,399
Speaker 1: if the judge is old and confused or also, I mean,

911
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:10,320
Speaker 1: being a judge and having that power in your hands

912
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 1: to send somebody away for the rest of their life.

913
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're gonna second guess yourself. I'm sure you're gonna.

914
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: I don't think it means much at anything. Also, he

915
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: was the judge, he wasn't the jury.

916
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 2: What do you make of the Kansas City Police crime

917
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 2: lab now saying that they believe there could be a

918
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 2: chance that Anastasia was lying down when she was shot.

919
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 1: That sounds really weird to me because I was there

920
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: and she was not lying down. How would you Plus also, okay,

921
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: if that's true, how do you get somebody to lie

922
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: down and you stick a gun literally on their nose?

923
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,439
Speaker 1: How do you get? What do you? Because she didn't

924
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: try to get away? They said she had a contact wound. No,

925
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 1: she was never at any point line down. And then

926
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 1: also now that they're relying on now, also their defense

927
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: changes constantly, which to me also is a red flag.

928
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: They're just grasping its straws. I feel like, did you

929
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: get any of the reward money? No? When I never

930
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: even tried to. They tried to say that I wanted

931
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: their reward money, but there was some like a loophole

932
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: where I wouldn't I couldn't get it or something. Isn't

933
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 1: that on file that I never even I didn't know

934
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: about the reward money. I remember there being posters or

935
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: something a long time ago, but I do not remember

936
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: the whole reward money thing, and I certainly had no

937
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 1: interest in it.

938
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 2: Did prosecutors show you crime scene photos of Anastasia so

939
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 2: that you could hone your story to describe how she

940
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 2: was found?

941
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: No? I've never even seen the crime photos. I'm glad

942
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 1: that I've never seen them because that sounds horrific. Yeah,

943
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: they're not They're very upsetting.

944
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 2: What do you think about the possibility that Byron could

945
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 2: get a new trial.

946
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 1: I'm curious as to why do we know why? Because

947
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: the Jackson County Prosecutor has told me that that's about

948
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: as far fetched as he does not see that happening.

949
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 2: I mean, they definitely allege Brady violations. And this is

950
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 2: going off of like Horton Lance's Affidavid right, So he

951
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 2: said something like one hundred and forty emails from Bob existed,

952
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 2: only ten were turned over. So I think all I'm

953
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: saying is I think that they say that there are

954
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 2: these Brady violations. I think that's one of the ways

955
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 2: that they're hoping that there could be a new trial.

956
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 2: And so your reaction to the possibility of a new trial.

957
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: Is bring it. I've told I told the Jackson County prosecutor.

958
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 1: I told Innastasia's family or whatever they need. If we

959
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 1: need to go back to court and I testify, I

960
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: have to testify against him again. I am no longer

961
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 1: a teenager. I'm no one. I mean, no, there's the

962
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 1: whole thing just seems ridiculous to me. They're not gonna

963
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: and the first time it certainly didn't go well for him.

964
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: So I'm not scared of Byron anymore. In fact, like

965
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 1: I said, being an adult now and looking back at

966
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 1: that relationship and stuff, I just I think he's creepy

967
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 1: and pathetic. He'll turn into anything to anybody to try

968
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 1: to get whatever he wants. I think if he ever

969
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 1: got a new trial, he's gonna be very sorry. There's

970
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: that girl that was threatened, the terror told, There's all

971
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 1: kinds of other stuff.

972
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 2: Why do you think there are so many unanswered questions

973
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:05,000
Speaker 2: for people?

974
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 1: Well, first of all because Byron's always playing this martyr

975
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 1: stuff where he compares himself to Damien Eckles whatever, which

976
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 1: is completely just whatever Byron. It's also, I think because

977
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: it's just so bizarre because it was literally a killing

978
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 1: that happened for not like no gain, no financial gain,

979
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: no anything. It was just that it was just like

980
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 1: a thrill kill, like Byron always wanted to know what

981
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: it was like to kill somebody. And then I don't know,

982
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 1: what do you think do you think that's part of it?

983
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: It's just so nonsensical, and then the people involved are

984
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 1: so bizarre. Byron's extremely bizarre, and how he comes off

985
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: his mom Bob. Just there's so many things that play

986
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:57,960
Speaker 1: that people are.

987
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 2: Like, what, why do you think in Stasia was murdered?

988
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 2: I mean, you said it's a real kill. Do you

989
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 2: think that Justin said it in sort of a way

990
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 2: but never meant for it to actually happen. Why do

991
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 2: you think Anastasia was murdered?

992
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 1: God, I wish I knew. I have no idea. I mean,

993
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 1: like I said, I was at school and they were

994
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 1: alone for several days together doing acid or masculine or whatever.

995
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 1: I think she's dead because Byron always wondered what it

996
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 1: was like to kill somebody. Justin was just sick enough

997
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: to get pulled into that, because it just it makes

998
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 1: no sense, like Justin like and she wasn't even It's

999
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: not like she was dangerous and stalking him. I just

1000
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:52,440
Speaker 1: I truly don't know. It reminds me a lot of

1001
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 1: do you remember this case. It's a very old true

1002
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:02,840
Speaker 1: true crime case of Leopold and Lobe. There was two

1003
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: young rich guys. Yeah, they had just one of them

1004
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: had always wanted to know what it was like to

1005
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,960
Speaker 1: kill somebody and they just I don't know, because Byron

1006
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 1: was just not And that's one of the things that

1007
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 1: made me so mad that he's using the whole oh

1008
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 1: the gothing, all the blah blah blah. No, I mean,

1009
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 1: he wasn't just goth. He was obsessed with that stuff.

1010
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 1: And that's a huge that's completely different. He told me,

1011
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 1: And I'm sorry, I apologize this is graphic or if

1012
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 1: I already said it or whatever. He said. He figured

1013
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 1: out that one of the quickest ways for him to

1014
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: whatever when he was masturbating was to like do it

1015
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 1: over dead animals and stuff like that. That was one

1016
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 1: of the things that he told me later. And like

1017
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 1: I said, he told me that he had participated in

1018
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 1: necrophilia and stuff. I mean, he wasn't just this wasn't

1019
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 1: just like his screensaver was this awful crime scene photo

1020
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,479
Speaker 1: of this woman that had been hacked up. Like he

1021
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't. This wasn't just somebody you know, listening to

1022
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 1: some goth music and blah blah blah. He put a

1023
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 1: rotting chicken carcass on his car and thought it was funny.

1024
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,160
Speaker 1: He just wasn't. It was it was to a whole

1025
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 1: nother level. This wasn't a goth person. This was someone

1026
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:42,440
Speaker 1: absolutely obsessed with death and control and suffering. And you

1027
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 1: know you did?

1028
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 2: You loved him? I fourteen year old side, fifteen year

1029
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 2: old self.

1030
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think I have You don't think you

1031
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 1: have the capacity for love at that age. But I

1032
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 1: I liked I liked the attention, he had a car.

1033
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 1: He made me feel better about myself after all the

1034
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 1: stuff that had happened. The more I got to know him,

1035
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: the less I liked him.

1036
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 2: Why did you stay with him as long as you

1037
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:14,640
Speaker 2: did after the murder?

1038
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, first off, he told me that it

1039
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 1: would look really bad, it would look really weird if

1040
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: we instantly broke up. And also I was just scared.

1041
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do because I didn't I

1042
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:36,479
Speaker 1: wasn't completely ready to come forward yet, but I had

1043
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: just like tremendous guilt. Also, he had been my first

1044
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 1: serious boyfriend. Justin was gone, you know, Staga was gone.

1045
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 1: I just felt trapped. And believe me, they weren't good years.

1046
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: He talks about me. I think it's so funny, like

1047
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 1: in his stuff about me, he's like and yet again,

1048
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,280
Speaker 1: Kelly had been on faithful blah blah blah. He's talking

1049
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 1: like I was like a thirty five year old person

1050
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,959
Speaker 1: that had been married to him for years but kept

1051
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: doing all these diabolical things. For I was fifteen and

1052
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 1: actually and I was pulling away from him, and I

1053
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 1: was finding people that were age appropriate, that were interested

1054
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 1: in me. That's not infidelity and manipulation. That's growing up

1055
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 1: and stuff and just getting It's just so weird how

1056
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 1: he sees stuff. He assigns all this stuff to me

1057
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 1: that is so calculated and so whatever, and it's not.

1058
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 1: I am not that complicated. I'm really not. How on

1059
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 1: earth did I know if I supposedly came forward to

1060
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:50,440
Speaker 1: get back at him, I didn't know how that was

1061
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: going to go if that was my I mean, it's

1062
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 1: just so stupid. Oh oops, I put myself in prison

1063
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 1: for twenty years now. It's just crazy.

1064
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:11,080
Speaker 2: How has life been for you since coming forward?

1065
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 1: Since all of this? Really, Oh god, that's a long

1066
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 1: time ago. I wish I could say it has been better.

1067
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:23,439
Speaker 1: It's been I don't. It's been up and down. It's

1068
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:28,240
Speaker 1: also it sucks that anytime I get involved with somebody

1069
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 1: on a very deep level, whether that be like a

1070
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 1: friend an employee, like you know, a love interest and

1071
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 1: stuff that I have to take, you know, like if

1072
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 1: you google me, this is what you're gonna find. That's

1073
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 1: been you know. But I knew, I knew that that

1074
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 1: was going to come with the territory. But it's just

1075
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 1: I still I don't think I'm ever gonna why I

1076
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 1: wrote you that in an email, I don't think I'm

1077
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:58,160
Speaker 1: ever going to see myself as a good person ever again.

1078
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 1: And that was one of the reasons. That's why I

1079
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 1: wish that before coming here, I had set up where

1080
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 1: you could talk to my trauma therapist and rehab and stuff,

1081
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 1: because she just a ton of the work that she

1082
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 1: did with me was being like, it's not your fault,

1083
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 1: it's not your fault. You were fifteen, you weren't evil,

1084
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,519
Speaker 1: you weren't blah blah. And I still don't even I

1085
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 1: don't think anybody's ever going to convince me of that.

1086
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:29,560
Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, she just she was a

1087
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 1: kid who thought she was hanging out with their friends.

1088
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 1: She didn't do anything. She didn't even do anything to me.

1089
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,760
Speaker 1: She didn't do anything to Byron other than he just

1090
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 1: didn't like her. And I think he wanted her out

1091
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:44,520
Speaker 1: of the way so that he could take full advantage

1092
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 1: of Justine. I mean, I just can't just terrifying how

1093
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:53,759
Speaker 1: fragile life is and how you know, I just can't.

1094
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:55,799
Speaker 1: And like I said, I have a daughter who's twenty

1095
01:08:55,840 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 1: one now, and if she you know, gott in her

1096
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 1: with her friends and they just you know, just killed her.

1097
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:08,200
Speaker 1: I I don't know, it's just not supposed to happen.

1098
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. I hope you can get to a place where

1099
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:15,360
Speaker 2: you do forgive yourself.

1100
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:19,360
Speaker 1: I hope. I don't know. I have good days and

1101
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:23,360
Speaker 1: I have bad days. Yeah, he's still of course, I

1102
01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 1: don't think I'm ever not gonna have nightmarees over stuff.

1103
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that makes me so

1104
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 1: mad too about Byron.

1105
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:33,360
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1106
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, he used to make fun of me for alupset

1107
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 1: I was about stuff. I don't know. I don't know

1108
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:50,760
Speaker 1: why he took me even, maybe he thought that was

1109
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 1: gonna bond me to him or I don't yeah, why

1110
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 1: bring you? Yeah, I'm just another leg of send I've

1111
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 1: been trying to figure that out for a really long time.

1112
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 1: And I'm glad that, you know, I came here and

1113
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:10,880
Speaker 1: talked to you and stuff, but I just won Have

1114
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 1: you seen that movie that I turned all Sunshine of

1115
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 1: the Spotless Mind. I just watched that and I was

1116
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:24,760
Speaker 1: just like, God, it was that was real because I've

1117
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 1: never since, you know, since all has happened when I

1118
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:30,360
Speaker 1: was fourteen, I have never had a time in my

1119
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:35,400
Speaker 1: life where I didn't just have this. It's a horrible

1120
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 1: sense of like guilt and dread and self loathing. I'm sorry,

1121
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 1: It's okay. I should have said something. I don't know what. God,

1122
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 1: I don't know why I didn't say anything, and I

1123
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 1: also wanted to talk to you, you know, if there's

1124
01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 1: anybody out there listening to this, because you know, I've

1125
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 1: seen other cases kind of similar on dateline and stuff,

1126
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 1: and I don't know, even if you think somebody's joking

1127
01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 1: around about something like that, it is not normal to

1128
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:19,160
Speaker 1: joke around about killing someone, you know, was I Was

1129
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 1: I what you expected at all? Or did you? Because

1130
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:24,439
Speaker 1: that's one of the things too, is I just want

1131
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 1: I don't Byron and his people just portray me as

1132
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1133
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 2: So I think you know I said it too from

1134
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 2: the very beginning. I think when I wrote to you

1135
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:37,639
Speaker 2: more than a year ago.

1136
01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:40,680
Speaker 1: God, I can't believe it's been the home that.

1137
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 2: I was going into this story just looking for the truth.

1138
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:48,680
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm glad you listened to all the

1139
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:52,520
Speaker 2: episodes before agreeing to sit down, because it was important

1140
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 2: for you to hear that and also have confidence in

1141
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:58,240
Speaker 2: what I was saying that. You know, I'm just looking

1142
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:02,640
Speaker 2: for the truth. So are you what I expected? I

1143
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:04,760
Speaker 2: feel like I've gotten to know you a little bit

1144
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:07,360
Speaker 2: through your emails as weird as I.

1145
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 1: Mean, you've been hard on me, even though it's up

1146
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,280
Speaker 1: and down. Yeah, well, I mean you have to realize too,

1147
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 1: We've had people with horrible like I said, like Byron's

1148
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:18,800
Speaker 1: legal team would contact me and be like, well, I

1149
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 1: just want to talk for a little bit. No, they

1150
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:22,559
Speaker 1: want to ambush me.

1151
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:24,519
Speaker 2: I mean, I was nervous for you to come today.

1152
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't I don't know how this

1153
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 2: is going to go. I know that I just wanted

1154
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:33,000
Speaker 2: to have a conversation. Is there anything that you want

1155
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 2: to ask or say or share that I haven't asked?

1156
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:40,799
Speaker 2: You do have anything you want to say to Byron?

1157
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,679
Speaker 1: Oh? God, I think about that a lot. He can

1158
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:48,880
Speaker 1: make up stories and when he's alone in his cell

1159
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:53,680
Speaker 1: at night. He knows he murdered her. He knows it,

1160
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 1: he knows this is all complete crap. I just don't understand.

1161
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:04,519
Speaker 1: I was always waiting for him to I don't know, something,

1162
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:08,680
Speaker 1: to crack something to I mean, it's how exhausting to

1163
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:12,599
Speaker 1: put up this charade for so long. I always thought

1164
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:16,799
Speaker 1: maybe there was a chance that he would just accept

1165
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:19,759
Speaker 1: his fate and do his time with dignity and leave

1166
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:24,280
Speaker 1: her family alone. And I just don't think that. I

1167
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:28,360
Speaker 1: don't wrong. Boy, was I wrong. I mean, I think

1168
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 1: he's gonna just I don't know, till the day he dies,

1169
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 1: he's gonna be just. I think he's just gonna be

1170
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:39,080
Speaker 1: completely full of shit till the day dies. And to me,

1171
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:43,439
Speaker 1: that's just that's terrifying that he's capable of doing that.

1172
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 2: You know, I'm interviewing. I'm doing like a final interview

1173
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 2: with his legal team tomorrow.

1174
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:53,960
Speaker 1: They're in. They're infuriating me.

1175
01:13:54,120 --> 01:14:05,320
Speaker 2: I don't know anything you want me to say to them.

1176
01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 1: Just because an investigation wasn't done perfectly and this, that

1177
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:12,160
Speaker 1: and the other. And I get it as like legal

1178
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:15,760
Speaker 1: people and people that want everything to go by the

1179
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 1: letter of the law. I'm sure a lot of things

1180
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 1: in this trial and uh, the investigation were really fucked up.

1181
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:28,679
Speaker 1: That doesn't that I mean, that doesn't mean a person

1182
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:33,280
Speaker 1: is innocent. And maybe they don't care. These aren't just

1183
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:39,120
Speaker 1: laws and you know, loopholes, and these are people. These

1184
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 1: are people. I wish just as bad as they had,

1185
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:49,639
Speaker 1: that you know, the investigation had gone smoother, and that

1186
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:56,280
Speaker 1: that kil Gore hadn't been like lazy or whatever. I

1187
01:14:56,320 --> 01:15:00,760
Speaker 1: don't know, I just don't. And they they also seem

1188
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:03,760
Speaker 1: to be making it more about them, like if they're

1189
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 1: going to get their name out there as like, I mean,

1190
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:10,560
Speaker 1: what do they want to make a name for themselves

1191
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:14,200
Speaker 1: in the legal world? Is like we I don't.

1192
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:20,280
Speaker 2: Know, because they have alleged that you don't tell the truth.

1193
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:24,639
Speaker 2: Have you told me the complete truth today?

1194
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely, yeah, I don't tell the complete truth. Even

1195
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 1: though this has like I said, this is I didn't

1196
01:15:34,479 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 1: paint myself in a good light coming forward because it

1197
01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: wasn't about that. I get Facebook messages all the time

1198
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:46,240
Speaker 1: like you should have gone to prison just right along

1199
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:49,480
Speaker 1: with them and stuff, and to that I say, yeah

1200
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 1: that actually, I probably my life might have been a

1201
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 1: little bit better because or I would have or something,

1202
01:15:57,680 --> 01:15:59,960
Speaker 1: or maybe then some of my guilt would go away

1203
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:02,840
Speaker 1: because I had been punished in some way. I just don't.

1204
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:07,840
Speaker 2: After Byron got arrested and was in jail, I think

1205
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:12,160
Speaker 2: you called Evelyn and said to Evelyn, I should be

1206
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:17,800
Speaker 2: there with him. A quick reminder in episode five, I

1207
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:20,759
Speaker 2: shared what Evelyn said on the stand in two thousand

1208
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:25,479
Speaker 2: and two about this. Evelyn testified about a month after

1209
01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 2: Byron was arrested. Kelly called her, and the first thing

1210
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:34,160
Speaker 2: Kelly said was, quote, this is insane, according to Evelyn.

1211
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:37,800
Speaker 2: Kelly went on to say, quote, I'm an accomplice. I'm

1212
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 2: an accomplice. But since I told I got they gave

1213
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:45,479
Speaker 2: me part immunity. Kelly also said quote I should be

1214
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:48,400
Speaker 2: in jail with him, and I'm ready to go in jail.

1215
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:51,080
Speaker 2: Know what you were saying is I feel as guilty.

1216
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:54,719
Speaker 2: I feel guilty too, and we should both be there.

1217
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:58,320
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and also like I said, like, I'm why

1218
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:02,679
Speaker 1: didn't you kill me too? Please? Or else? I've switched

1219
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 1: places for just any I mean, what I did was

1220
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:13,880
Speaker 1: completely wrong, and that's how things like the Holocaust happen,

1221
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:19,719
Speaker 1: and that's how you know, horrible things happen is when

1222
01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:25,679
Speaker 1: people don't say anything, or people just you know, don't

1223
01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:28,840
Speaker 1: want to cause the stir. They don't say anything, or

1224
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:32,360
Speaker 1: they've never really done anything like that before, so whatever.

1225
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:34,880
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just That's another reason why I wanted

1226
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:39,120
Speaker 1: to do your podcast and stuff is just say something,

1227
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 1: because if you think you're taking the easier way out

1228
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:45,680
Speaker 1: by not saying something, and you have any kind of

1229
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 1: a conscience, you'll just be eating alive. What is that

1230
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:54,920
Speaker 1: quote like in order for the only or one of

1231
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 1: the main ways for evil to happen is for good

1232
01:17:57,400 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 1: men to say nothing or something. Oh, yeah, definitely.

1233
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:05,040
Speaker 2: Is there anything else that you can think of that

1234
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:08,040
Speaker 2: you want to share?

1235
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 1: No, I just oh and younger girls, if there is

1236
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:26,479
Speaker 1: an adult man interested in you and you know you

1237
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 1: I looked a little bit older than my age. But yeah,

1238
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 1: there's not. That is not a compliment and you should

1239
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:42,200
Speaker 1: run the other direction. There's no no decent eighteen nineteen

1240
01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:46,959
Speaker 1: year old wants anything to do with a middle schooler.

1241
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:53,120
Speaker 2: Is there anything you want to stay to Anastatia's family.

1242
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:55,680
Speaker 2: I know you have a I know you have a

1243
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 2: relationship with them and you talk to them, but if

1244
01:18:59,280 --> 01:18:59,880
Speaker 2: they're listening.

1245
01:19:01,680 --> 01:19:06,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. They pretty much know where I stand.

1246
01:19:06,200 --> 01:19:12,479
Speaker 1: But I'm so so sorry. I'm sorry that she trusted me.

1247
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:21,439
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm sorry. I haven't met any of them,

1248
01:19:21,479 --> 01:19:24,040
Speaker 1: and also now as a parent, like I just, I

1249
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:29,160
Speaker 1: have a completely different view of Anastasia. You know, she

1250
01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:31,880
Speaker 1: just wanted the guy that she loved to love her back.

1251
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:36,120
Speaker 1: You know, that's all she wanted. That's all anybody wants. God,

1252
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:38,280
Speaker 1: I just I don't know. I just wish I could

1253
01:19:38,280 --> 01:19:44,599
Speaker 1: turn back down. You know, I wish if I could

1254
01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:52,000
Speaker 1: take her place, I definitely would, you know, I don't know.

1255
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:59,240
Speaker 1: There's just no. I don't know, but there's no. It

1256
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:02,360
Speaker 1: just doesn't feel like there's any type of I'm sorry.

1257
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:03,240
Speaker 1: That's big enough.

1258
01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:11,679
Speaker 2: I'm thankful Kelly agreed to speak with me. Her side

1259
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 2: of the story needed to be heard. So the plan

1260
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 2: was that next week we were going to release our

1261
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:22,000
Speaker 2: final episode, which was to include my interview with Byron

1262
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:24,880
Speaker 2: and his legal team. But that was all done prior

1263
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 2: to these new revelations about Kelly's littering case, something I

1264
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:32,880
Speaker 2: did not see coming. Because the story is unfolding in

1265
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:35,799
Speaker 2: real time and a lot of people's lives are at stake.

1266
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:39,439
Speaker 2: We are going to take another short pause. I'm going

1267
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:41,640
Speaker 2: to go back to Byron to ask him about some

1268
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 2: of Kelly's allegations from our interview, and back to his

1269
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:49,040
Speaker 2: legal team to ask them to explain exactly what happened

1270
01:20:49,080 --> 01:20:56,680
Speaker 2: with Kelly's littering charge and where do they go from here.

1271
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:02,919
Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

1272
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:08,000
Speaker 2: those of the individuals participating in the podcast. If you

1273
01:21:08,520 --> 01:21:12,520
Speaker 2: or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis,

1274
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:17,720
Speaker 2: please no help is available. Call or text nine eight eight,

1275
01:21:18,200 --> 01:21:22,000
Speaker 2: or chat online at the Suicide and Crisis Lifelines website

1276
01:21:22,360 --> 01:21:26,719
Speaker 2: at nine eight eight lifeline dot org. To see photos,

1277
01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:30,200
Speaker 2: maps and documents related to this season's story, follow The

1278
01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:35,439
Speaker 2: Real Killer podcast on Instagram and at TRK podcast on TikTok.

1279
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:44,040
Speaker 2: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia,

1280
01:21:44,080 --> 01:21:48,880
Speaker 2: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and

1281
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:54,639
Speaker 2: Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, editing

1282
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:59,120
Speaker 2: and sound design by Cameron Taggi, mixed and mastered by

1283
01:21:59,160 --> 01:22:06,080
Speaker 2: Cameron Taggie, Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam studio engineer Graham Gibson,

1284
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:11,480
Speaker 2: legal counsel for A y R Media, Johnny Douglas, executive

1285
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:14,120
Speaker 2: producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard