Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh,
Speaker 1: and there's Chuck and Jerry's not here, but we suspect
Speaker 1: she'll be along shortly, and that makes this, of course
Speaker 1: stuff you should know. Yeah, it's funny. This one came
Speaker 1: up from you. Why because semi recently we were hanging
Speaker 1: out with our friends and Emily, We're talking about introverts
Speaker 1: and extroverts and Emily said, someone said, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: Chuck is obviously an extrovert, and uh, Emily said, no,
Speaker 1: he's not. It's a lie. She said, Chuck is an
Speaker 1: introvert because he loses energy and groups of people and
Speaker 1: he recharges by being alone. And I had never really
Speaker 1: heard that, but that's true. But then after doing all
Speaker 1: this research, like I am, uh, very much in the
Speaker 1: middle of the spectrum, very and not I guess, not
Speaker 1: quite an ambivert, and that what it's called. It really
Speaker 1: is completely dependent for me on any situation, who the
Speaker 1: people are, where I am at the time. It's very,
Speaker 1: very dependent on a host of factors. Yes, so that
Speaker 1: means you are normal, uh, from from what I can tell.
Speaker 1: And I'm really excited about this one because it's like
Speaker 1: Christmas and Halloween and Easter all wrapped up together, because
Speaker 1: we get the tea off on social psychology, on the
Speaker 1: science press, um, all sorts of people and really kind
Speaker 1: of disassemble something I think most people walking around think
Speaker 1: they understand, but from everything I can tell, misunderstand is
Speaker 1: a much better way to put it. Yeah. Absolutely, And
Speaker 1: I think this will get a lot of listener feedback
Speaker 1: because I think a lot of people spend time thinking
Speaker 1: about this stuff. Yeah. Um, And it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like I said, it's very easy to put people in buckets.
Speaker 1: I think if we were to talk about yourself and myself,
Speaker 1: people would say, well, Chucks an extrovert. Josh is an introvert.
Speaker 1: We can tell by things they've said over the years.
Speaker 1: But it's just not that easy. No, No, but you're right,
Speaker 1: and I should say you weren't right. Emily was right.
Speaker 1: You recounted Emily being right. Usually the case if you
Speaker 1: just kind of boil it down to that, that is,
Speaker 1: it seems to be from what we can tell the UM.
Speaker 1: The one distinction between introverts and extroverts, like where you
Speaker 1: gather your energy from? Is it from other people or
Speaker 1: is it from yourself not being around other people? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but also it's like I think it's and we'll we'll
Speaker 1: debunk a lot of this stuff, but um, it's not
Speaker 1: as easy as you know, the fact that you don't
Speaker 1: want to be talked to on the Appalachian Trail or
Speaker 1: meet other hikers, that doesn't mean you're an introvert. Because
Speaker 1: I've also seen you be the life of a party.
Speaker 1: Well that's when you get a little Captain Morgan. But
Speaker 1: like I was thinking about just you know, work events
Speaker 1: and parties and things like that. If it's like a
Speaker 1: party with my friends, I'm usually all about it. But
Speaker 1: I could also be in the mood to not even
Speaker 1: go or at a podcast conference. You know, I am
Speaker 1: way more likely to just sit in my room than
Speaker 1: go to the mixer unless I know that, like there's
Speaker 1: gonna be people at the mixer I would really want
Speaker 1: to get to know and meet, And then I'm all
Speaker 1: of a sudden all about it. So it really just depends.
Speaker 1: That's me. I feel like I'm learning a lot about
Speaker 1: you right now because I just presumed you were always
Speaker 1: at those mixers. No, man, I'm in the room a lot.
Speaker 1: I mean you were always in the room, but many
Speaker 1: times in the room. Well there's coffee in the room.
Speaker 1: So just so let's let's kind of um, let's talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about introverts and extroverts. There's a woman
Speaker 1: named Susan Kane who wrote a book called Quiet, The
Speaker 1: Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking,
Speaker 1: And she basically says it comes down to a preference
Speaker 1: of where you get your stimulation, like do you prefer
Speaker 1: lower stimulation environments do you prefer high stimulation environments? And
Speaker 1: that it is just a preference. And in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways she's right, But in a lot of ways
Speaker 1: she's really wrong because it's not just a preference from
Speaker 1: what from if you're a psychologist or even a neuroscientist, like,
Speaker 1: it's an actual, ingrained, possibly um brain based um biological
Speaker 1: response that that people may or may not be born with. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna we're gonna throw a lot of studies
Speaker 1: out in this one and a lot of statistics. There
Speaker 1: was a random sample of results in a Myers Briggs
Speaker 1: personality inventory that said the introverts and I love this
Speaker 1: stat They might as well have just called it fifty
Speaker 1: fifty Uh, Introverts made up fifty point seven and extroverts
Speaker 1: for forty nine point three, with about forty six percent
Speaker 1: of men and fifty two percent of women being extroverted.
Speaker 1: In fifty percent of men and forty seven percent of
Speaker 1: women is introverted. But you can find a pretty wide
Speaker 1: range if you go poking around the internet on how
Speaker 1: many people they say are introverted or extroverted. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: one I I've seen all over the places somewhere between
Speaker 1: sixteen and fifty percent of people, right, introverts? Right, sure, Well,
Speaker 1: I bet you they're right. Well yeah, yeah, somewhere in
Speaker 1: there they might be nailing it, unless it pans out
Speaker 1: the introverts don't actually exist. So those numbers you threw out,
Speaker 1: and I think the sixteen to fifty that I threw
Speaker 1: out too, that's typically in the us UM. But the
Speaker 1: thing is, it's not entirely clear, Chuck, if those numbers
Speaker 1: hold steady, like if you did that same random sample
Speaker 1: of Myers Briggs results, you know ten years on which
Speaker 1: you get similar numbers, and if you wouldn't, why is
Speaker 1: that the case? Is it because somehow like populations are shifting,
Speaker 1: or is it because you know, if you would sample
Speaker 1: those exact same people from ten years later. Was if
Speaker 1: and they results were different? Would it be because people
Speaker 1: act differently because of their moods? And then there's not
Speaker 1: like a lifelong bucket of introvert or extrovert that you
Speaker 1: can actually label people with, right, or if people uh
Speaker 1: really evolve? Uh, And I'd say evolve or devolved? I
Speaker 1: guess in either direction. Um could do some people that
Speaker 1: really used to be introverted. You know, you hear stories
Speaker 1: where people say, well, then I learned to come out
Speaker 1: of my shell for these reasons, and now I'm a
Speaker 1: completely different person. And I think it's just one of
Speaker 1: these things where it is all wholly dependent on an individual.
Speaker 1: They're like, now I go beat up introverts on Friday
Speaker 1: nights with my friends. But like, this stuff is fun
Speaker 1: to talk about, but I just don't know that anyone
Speaker 1: can bucket people. You can make some generalizations, but I
Speaker 1: think it's so specific to each person that it's uh,
Speaker 1: which is sort of some of your closing thoughts, which
Speaker 1: we'll get to at the end. Yeah, but but we
Speaker 1: have a problem here, then we can at least set
Speaker 1: it up right, because what psychology is trying to do
Speaker 1: is create a model that you can apply to every
Speaker 1: single human being alive and and predict their behavior based
Speaker 1: on where they fall on the spectrum between extrovert and
Speaker 1: introvert and some other stuff that we'll get into two.
Speaker 1: So it's not just a question of you know, people,
Speaker 1: people are people. Psychology is really trying to figure this
Speaker 1: out in a really specific manner. Yeah, and I don't
Speaker 1: think it's like a waste of time or anything. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying like they should just let people be who
Speaker 1: they are. But because it is interesting, um, at the
Speaker 1: very least, it gives us something to talk about for
Speaker 1: forty five minutes. So let's talk about, um, what makes
Speaker 1: an introvert an introvert and an extrovert an extrovert? Because
Speaker 1: there's a lot of misconceptions, but there's a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff that I think people assume that kind of fall
Speaker 1: in line with psychology's view of the behavior patterns of
Speaker 1: each right, but also a lot of overlapping patterns because
Speaker 1: I found myself in a lot of these from each list,
Speaker 1: So you're an ambivert, right, did were mainly introvert when
Speaker 1: it comes to this list specifically, I don't know. Let's
Speaker 1: let's go through it, okay. Uh. Introverts uh, and we'll
Speaker 1: just go through these quickly. Need to need quiet to concentrate? Um,
Speaker 1: for sure? Me. Are reflective, are self aware, take time
Speaker 1: making decisions and consider them carefully. Uh. Feel comfortable being alone,
Speaker 1: don't like group work, prefer to write rather than talk,
Speaker 1: have few friendships, but are very close with those friends.
Speaker 1: Day dream or use their imaginations to work out a problem,
Speaker 1: Retreat into their own mind to rest, and feel drained
Speaker 1: being around others, especially large groups. So I definitely check
Speaker 1: every single one of those boxes, except for take time
Speaker 1: making decisions and consider things carefully like I I will often.
Speaker 1: I mean I will consider things a lot. I do
Speaker 1: that a lot of times. But I also just kind
Speaker 1: of make impulsive decisions sometimes as well. Yeah, but you
Speaker 1: also clearly don't need quiet to concentrate because you sent
Speaker 1: me Muse to listen to for the very first time
Speaker 1: in fifteen years. Did you listen to it? I did?
Speaker 1: And it's funny that this all came up. We'll tell
Speaker 1: everyone what you sent. So I can't remember his name.
Speaker 1: I sent you a Ruichi Sakamoto album. I think it's
Speaker 1: called Oh five, and it's really amazing it's great. I
Speaker 1: loved it. But as soon as I put it on
Speaker 1: and Josh sent this to me just to say, hey,
Speaker 1: maybe we'll just be like of one mind if we
Speaker 1: both listened to the same music. And obviously you're kidding around.
Speaker 1: But what I found was I and what I know
Speaker 1: about myself is I can have music on if i'm
Speaker 1: and when you you know, when we're doing stuff. You
Speaker 1: should know studying. It's my deepest study. But I gotta
Speaker 1: have it really quiet, really yeah, otherwise it distracts me.
Speaker 1: I mean, I understand the principle because I can't if
Speaker 1: it has lyrics, I just can't. I can't do it
Speaker 1: at all. It's lyrics, Yeah, it's definitely lyrics for me.
Speaker 1: Or even an instrumental song of a song that has
Speaker 1: lyrics that I know it will bring to mind the
Speaker 1: lyrics so has to be straight up instrumental all the way.
Speaker 1: What if it was just lyrics that over and over
Speaker 1: said concentrate, Josh, concentrate. That probably worked really well. I'll
Speaker 1: have to try that sometime. Maybe I can just sit
Speaker 1: on the phone with you and you can say that
Speaker 1: over and over again while I'm studying. But for me,
Speaker 1: that's only like really big, serious concentration. Like if I'm
Speaker 1: working on a project, I love having podcasts or music playing. Definitely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's another thing too. It's hard to listen to podcasts
Speaker 1: or anything where people are talking too, for the exact
Speaker 1: same reason for me for study. Yes, yeah, that's impossible. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean you're talking about the Right Brothers and the
Speaker 1: invention of the airplane while you're trying to study extroverts
Speaker 1: and introverts. It doesn't really go very well. Alright, so
Speaker 1: go ahead, go over the extroverts behavioral patterns. I'm a
Speaker 1: little nervous talking in public, but that's because you're an
Speaker 1: introvert extroverts And by the way, it's appropriate to write
Speaker 1: it with an A or an oh, So extroverts or extroverts,
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, it's find either way. But they enjoy social settings.
Speaker 1: That's a big one. I've seen that their overall generally
Speaker 1: more optimistic. They seek attention. I saw that that was
Speaker 1: a big one too. They're energized by being around other people,
Speaker 1: and as a result, they're friends with a lot of
Speaker 1: different people. As a result, they're sociable and outgoing. They
Speaker 1: tend to enjoy group work. That's the kind of work
Speaker 1: that they thrive in. They prefer talking over writing, they
Speaker 1: find it easy to express themselves, and they feel drained
Speaker 1: when they're alone for extended periods. Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: took most of those boxes, but I also took a
Speaker 1: lot of the introvert. I feel like you don't take
Speaker 1: many of these boxes at all. I'm looking and I
Speaker 1: mean I'm pretty outgoing. I can be sociable. I mean,
Speaker 1: it really just depends on my mood. But if you
Speaker 1: were going to take an overall picture of me, yes,
Speaker 1: definitely way closer to them the introvert version end of
Speaker 1: the spectrum. What about this one, because I think this
Speaker 1: one is kind of key and interesting. Is link drained
Speaker 1: when alone for extended periods? I wouldn't say drained is
Speaker 1: the right word, but I don't prefer to be alone
Speaker 1: for extended periods unless I feel like being alone. But
Speaker 1: in that case, does alone mean like just with your wife? Like?
Speaker 1: What does alone really mean? Does alone mean literally by yourself?
Speaker 1: So I think for extroverts they feel drained when they're
Speaker 1: alone just by themselves. They don't have somebody else to
Speaker 1: be an energy vampire on. Yeah, it's weird for me, man,
Speaker 1: because I love being around people. But I could do
Speaker 1: a zombie apocalypse survival thing on my own, sure, and
Speaker 1: I think I'd be Okay. Yeah, you've got some good
Speaker 1: good booze and some good food barbecue girl that works,
Speaker 1: You'd be fine. It'd be awesome. Uh. It's also interesting
Speaker 1: when you know, we haven't been in the office. Basically
Speaker 1: our office environment is completely different now since the pandemic
Speaker 1: moving forward, but we have an office still. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: But it's interesting that, like we I think before we
Speaker 1: became a podcast network, it's interesting that we became a
Speaker 1: podcast network because we were in office really full of introverts,
Speaker 1: would you agree, Yes, yeah, for sure. And a lot
Speaker 1: of those a lot of those people became public personalities
Speaker 1: in the end, which is really strange despite themselves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's odd. Um and and office is closing down for
Speaker 1: I think extroverts has probably been a problem. I didn't
Speaker 1: think I missed it until I went to our colleague,
Speaker 1: Pam Peacock, had an art opening that I went to
Speaker 1: in my neighborhood and I saw probably like twelve or
Speaker 1: thirteen people from the office, and I had the best time,
Speaker 1: And I was like, I didn't realize I miss seeing
Speaker 1: everybody until I saw everybody. That was really sweet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but then I was fun. You know, I'm not seeing
Speaker 1: him the next day. Yeah, it does sound like you
Speaker 1: are a pretty big ambervert. So the fact that there
Speaker 1: isn't as such a thing as an ambivert somebody who
Speaker 1: really checks a lot of boxes on both sides, so
Speaker 1: they pretty much fall in the middle. The fact that
Speaker 1: they exist underscores a really important point that introverts and
Speaker 1: extroverts are on a spectrum. You're not just one or
Speaker 1: the other. As a matter of fact, Carl Young, who
Speaker 1: actually came up with this whole idea in the twenties,
Speaker 1: said that if you were a full extrovert or a
Speaker 1: full introvert, you would be a lunatic. Like, there's just
Speaker 1: no such thing. But some people lean further towards one
Speaker 1: side or the other. But it's a spectrum, and again
Speaker 1: it's not entirely clear if when you where you follow
Speaker 1: on that spectrum would be the same from one year
Speaker 1: to the other, one decade to the other, even you know,
Speaker 1: one week to the other. Yeah. Absolutely, Um, I feel
Speaker 1: like this is a good break time, all right. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go sit quietly and think about what I've done
Speaker 1: and get energy. We'll be right back, Joshua, that's funny
Speaker 1: you threw in that Young comment because, uh, that quote,
Speaker 1: because I found the same one and I thought it
Speaker 1: was interesting because, as it turns out, Carl Young was
Speaker 1: a one of the kind of first big proponents of
Speaker 1: studying introverts and extroverts, and a lot of his work
Speaker 1: he's kind of known for it. I guess that is
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I'm not sure that
Speaker 1: he actually came up with it, but he certainly popularized it,
Speaker 1: starting in his book Psychological Types. Yeah. And Young's whole
Speaker 1: thing was um that the division between introverts and extroverts
Speaker 1: is which which way they directed their focus or their energy,
Speaker 1: was it inward or outward? And that that was the
Speaker 1: real distinction, And that was what people thought for a
Speaker 1: very long time until um, as we'll see, people came
Speaker 1: along and said, I think it's really kind of energy based,
Speaker 1: like where did they get their stimulation? Is it inward
Speaker 1: or outward? Um? And that seems to be the current idea.
Speaker 1: But Young really kicked the whole thing off in the twenties. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is I think it's interesting that I don't know,
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties to study something that seems very modern
Speaker 1: to me, personality types. There's also a dude, a German
Speaker 1: I think Young was Swiss, a German name Hans een
Speaker 1: sinc I sink not een sync added an extra in somehow,
Speaker 1: but it sounded luscious, it did. Hans I sink Uh.
Speaker 1: He was a psychologist um from Germany who operated out
Speaker 1: of the University of London. He kind of took the
Speaker 1: baton from Young. Uh. Did they work together or was
Speaker 1: it just sort of a metaphorical passing of the baton?
Speaker 1: Think it was like standing on the shoulders of giants
Speaker 1: kind of thing. I don't think they worked together, Okay,
Speaker 1: but he came along in like the nineties sixties and
Speaker 1: developed a model of personality and he put a lot
Speaker 1: of focus on extroversion and neuroticism, which I think is
Speaker 1: very interesting because oh, I guess let's just talk about
Speaker 1: the links between the two, Okay, So yeah, I think
Speaker 1: this whole whole jam was that that was the two boxes.
Speaker 1: You were either an extrovert and or an introvert, and
Speaker 1: you were either neurotic or not neurotic. And it wasn't
Speaker 1: on a spectrum. He didn't see those on a spectrum
Speaker 1: when he started working. I'm not sure if he ever did.
Speaker 1: You were either one or the other. And when you
Speaker 1: put these two things together, um, you had a full
Speaker 1: picture of the human being. And it seems primitive to
Speaker 1: us today. But the basis of what he was doing, um,
Speaker 1: it's it's still carried on today. He like kind of
Speaker 1: helped build these blocks that people have built on since then. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, he worked with his wife Sybil and with
Speaker 1: her ended up adding psychoticism as a personality trait, uh,
Speaker 1: to create what was called the Pen model, the pe
Speaker 1: N model of personality. And I think, you know, psychology
Speaker 1: or neuroscience would later kind of say that he was
Speaker 1: right in a lot of ways. But later on psychology
Speaker 1: they came up with their own Big five personality traits
Speaker 1: and didn't they dropped psychoticism as a specific category, but
Speaker 1: they kind of took pieces of it and applied it
Speaker 1: to the other five personality traits and came up with
Speaker 1: a acronym really too, just depending on if you're an
Speaker 1: introvert on an extrovert, right, it could be a canoe
Speaker 1: or an ocean. Yeah, So that's kind of where we're
Speaker 1: at today the big five personality traits. As as far
Speaker 1: as I can tell, the dominant model of of personality
Speaker 1: descriptors and canoe is um Conscientiousness, which is your degree
Speaker 1: of impulse control or your ability to meet goals. Agree Ability,
Speaker 1: it's your degree that you trust other people or that
Speaker 1: you're helpful or cooperative. Neuroticism, and this is the same
Speaker 1: that I think and uh, or I should say the
Speaker 1: I thinks considered neuroticism. It's your degree of emotional stability
Speaker 1: or instability, like do you get emotional really quick or
Speaker 1: are you kind of like solid and steady kind of thing. Um.
Speaker 1: And then there's also openness, which I saw described as
Speaker 1: better better um written as imagination or intellect. So it's um,
Speaker 1: it's openness to new experiences, but internal experience, right. And
Speaker 1: then there's an extra version. There's your can that's right,
Speaker 1: that's the canoe, or that's the ocean. I guess ocean
Speaker 1: would be in a different order. I can do that one.
Speaker 1: And now in the oceanal that's okay, okay, uh. And
Speaker 1: what's really interesting about all this is when you and
Speaker 1: of course this is what you're gonna do in a
Speaker 1: social psychology way is to to consider, like, all right, well,
Speaker 1: why are people like they are? Not just let's identify
Speaker 1: what people are are? But is and it's sort of
Speaker 1: goes down to the old nature or nurture thing, which
Speaker 1: I've long been on record that kind of everything is
Speaker 1: a mixture of both, and it seems to be in
Speaker 1: this case. Although there have been some studies, including studies
Speaker 1: from the I Sinks, the Screaming I Sinks, Great New bands,
Speaker 1: where it seems in certain cases that nature has a
Speaker 1: bit of a nudge over nurture. In one study in particular,
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty six of twins found that extra version
Speaker 1: was correlated most amongst identical twins rather than fraternal twins,
Speaker 1: which would really put a check in the box of nature. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think um went on in a nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: nine study to basically identify the size of your your cortex,
Speaker 1: your cerebral cortex as directly related did to whether you
Speaker 1: were an introvert extrovert. And this is ninety nine. I
Speaker 1: think the Wonder Machine was maybe had just debuted and
Speaker 1: they were probably a billion dollars a piece. So this
Speaker 1: guy was doing this, I don't know, he might have
Speaker 1: been dissecting people after they died or something. But he
Speaker 1: from what neuroscience went on to kind of they went
Speaker 1: on and through in their own two cents on this
Speaker 1: whole thing, and they really showed that I think was
Speaker 1: seemed to have been onto something. Yeah, so one thing
Speaker 1: that we do know for sure, and there's there's so
Speaker 1: much haziness with all this it can be a little frustrating.
Speaker 1: But one thing that they have really established is there
Speaker 1: is a supreme connection between being an extrovert and seeking
Speaker 1: reward behaviors that seek rewards, and there is a pretty
Speaker 1: clear demarcation between introverts and extroverts when it comes to
Speaker 1: the I guess we can say the fact that extroverts
Speaker 1: are much more likely to seek rewards than introverts are. Yes,
Speaker 1: and and if you take that as correct, then that
Speaker 1: explains every other behavior in those behavior patterns that extroverts
Speaker 1: are looking outward for some sort of stimulation, and you
Speaker 1: can see everything they do is reward seeking behavior. Not
Speaker 1: reward like somebody gives them a TwixT or something for
Speaker 1: saying a joke. All of that might happen, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure an extrovert would love that, but more like by
Speaker 1: talking to somebody they have a they get a positive
Speaker 1: feeling from that, so they get a pop of dopamine.
Speaker 1: That means that going and socializing with people is reward
Speaker 1: seeking behavior. They're seeking that pop of dopamine, which is
Speaker 1: as in brain terms, the reward. So that is the
Speaker 1: central why to all of this. It depends, as we'll see,
Speaker 1: it depends. So they have shown that there are people
Speaker 1: that correlate with extra version as we understand them psychologically today,
Speaker 1: that that do that do have like this larger cortex
Speaker 1: that is linked to greater reward seeking. But it's also
Speaker 1: possible that these these buckets that we've create an extrovert
Speaker 1: an introvert don't really apply. So at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, what we have is some neurological findings that
Speaker 1: were not quite sure. We can't say really confidently that
Speaker 1: they fit our model of extroverts and introverts, but it
Speaker 1: is it is a pretty good place to start, yeah,
Speaker 1: because they the one example they gave kind of makes
Speaker 1: sense in that when thinking along those lines, which is
Speaker 1: an introvert um, there may be an introvert who really
Speaker 1: loves going on thrill rides and roller coasters or bungee
Speaker 1: jumping or big adventuests like that. But they say that
Speaker 1: extroverts getting more like more of a rush out of
Speaker 1: something like that than an introvert might. Yeah, so anything
Speaker 1: that could give you dopamine. It's not to say that
Speaker 1: introverts don't experience that, it's just to say that extroverts
Speaker 1: experience it more. Right, So it doesn't matter what they're
Speaker 1: deriving pleasure from. They're getting a bigger kick or a
Speaker 1: bigger thrill or a bigger whatever out of it. And
Speaker 1: I've seen that this actually leads extroverts into later danger
Speaker 1: than introverts, like they're because they need Yeah, so they're
Speaker 1: likelier to go do weird stuff that could get them
Speaker 1: hospitalized for an injury. They're more prone to accident to
Speaker 1: being hospitalized for him they're being they're more prone to
Speaker 1: being arrested for crime or anti social behavior. Um. And
Speaker 1: when you understand it is there, it's a reward seeking behavior,
Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, And then you know,
Speaker 1: on the nurture side, there's gonna be a lot of
Speaker 1: research obviously into everything from what your family is generally like, uh,
Speaker 1: and the cues that you pick up from them on
Speaker 1: how to live life to what really interests me, which
Speaker 1: is going back to being a baby, because you know,
Speaker 1: you're you're sponging it up from the time you pop
Speaker 1: out and your breathing oxygen. Uh. And I think like
Speaker 1: in terms of the pandemic, And they talked about this
Speaker 1: COVID generation, not necessarily generation because you know, maybe a
Speaker 1: couple of years, but I think there was a lot
Speaker 1: of focus on like grade school kids and teens and
Speaker 1: stuff like that and how it behaviorally affects will affect them.
Speaker 1: But I think there's gonna be a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: many years from now about COVID babies that didn't go
Speaker 1: outside for their first two years. Uh. And this two
Speaker 1: thousand six study they found that, Um, there's a few
Speaker 1: studies here that kind of I think play into that.
Speaker 1: One one was from two thousand six where they found
Speaker 1: that mother child relationships can really have an effect on
Speaker 1: extra version and that if you are a mother and
Speaker 1: child who are really attached during very early stages of development,
Speaker 1: that the kid will end up being more likely to
Speaker 1: be extroverted later in life. Yeah, if they have what
Speaker 1: psychologists call a secure attachment style to their mom, which
Speaker 1: means that they know that at the end of the
Speaker 1: day and they can run home to mom if something
Speaker 1: goes wrong and Mom's going to be there for them,
Speaker 1: which gives them the confidence to go out and explore more.
Speaker 1: That makes sense, and it's one of those things that
Speaker 1: it makes so much sense that you should have a
Speaker 1: little alarm going off in your head because it's it's
Speaker 1: one of those things that like has like somebody had
Speaker 1: a study that that showed that. But it doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean Okay, if you have a secure attachment, you're definitely
Speaker 1: going to be an extrovert. It's also not clear our
Speaker 1: kids who are born extroverts likelier to form a secure
Speaker 1: attachment to your mom's you know. So we're back to
Speaker 1: like a chicken and the egg kind of thing, and
Speaker 1: we just don't have an answer to that. So it's
Speaker 1: really important to be careful when you're interpreting some of
Speaker 1: the data that psychologists and the science press like the
Speaker 1: throw at you is basically settled. Yeah, and it also
Speaker 1: doesn't mean, um, you know, sometimes one of the effects
Speaker 1: of postpartum depression can be trouble forming an attachment for
Speaker 1: a while. Uh, that doesn't necessarily mean that that baby
Speaker 1: is going to grow up to be an introvert because
Speaker 1: mom had a harder time bonding with that child early
Speaker 1: on because of postpartum depression. UM and I I think
Speaker 1: we should do one on attachment styles. Like there's a
Speaker 1: big bunch of UM stuff that's associated with it, and
Speaker 1: it seems really it's really interesting. It does seem pretty
Speaker 1: predictive of behavior for sure. Yeah. Absolutely, Uh, I love
Speaker 1: all that stuff. Anything about like early childhood development is
Speaker 1: just fascinating to me. I love it too, Chuck, let's
Speaker 1: love it together. Another study in Japan, and this is
Speaker 1: what I was kind of talking about with UM, perhaps
Speaker 1: COVID babies playing in was they found that children of
Speaker 1: overprotective or just let's just say protective parents have lower
Speaker 1: levels of extraversion. And that's what I was talking about
Speaker 1: with Like, if there were parents that were just did
Speaker 1: not let their baby leave the house for two years
Speaker 1: because of COVID, like what that would probably mean they're
Speaker 1: probably protective and you know, maybe overly protective as opposed
Speaker 1: to uh what Thankfully we were able to do because
Speaker 1: there was no code, but we had our daughter out
Speaker 1: very early and thought it was very important to just
Speaker 1: get her out in the world in places where there
Speaker 1: are lots of people, you know, even as a baby,
Speaker 1: I just think, I don't know, I think all that
Speaker 1: stuff really sort of matters. Well, yeah, they say socialization,
Speaker 1: the more contact with other humans, it's the better off
Speaker 1: the kid is. That's the presumption, right right. The thing
Speaker 1: is this this uh, this Japanese study. What it seems
Speaker 1: to have turned up is that, um, it's not lower
Speaker 1: levels of extraversion. It sounds like it's um, greater neuroticism. Interesting,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like they're they're um, what
Speaker 1: a lot of people think of as introversion, like social anxiety, um,
Speaker 1: a desire to not be around people because they don't
Speaker 1: feel comfortable. That's not introversion. That's a part of the
Speaker 1: Big five though, And it's neuroticism, that's what that counts.
Speaker 1: So like a neurotic neurotic parents are more likely to
Speaker 1: have neurotic kids. Yeah, and it makes sense like that
Speaker 1: you would pass that on that that could be a
Speaker 1: learned behavior, you know, that you adopt for yourself, especially
Speaker 1: after years of being raised that way certainly makes sense absolutely.
Speaker 1: What about discipline? Uh, yeah, you spank you thank them
Speaker 1: for being an introvert. That's the that's the phrase that
Speaker 1: psychologists use. Those T shirts did not sell well. Got
Speaker 1: a box of them at the pops I convention, right right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're just sitting moth eaton in the attic. Uh No,
Speaker 1: what it said was a sixty six nineteen sixty six
Speaker 1: study found that sons who were punished by their parents
Speaker 1: would exhibit more introverted behavior. Uh. This to me, especially
Speaker 1: the fact that it was nineteen sixty six, is I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm just a leary of this one, because
Speaker 1: what does punishment mean in that case in nineteen sixty six. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what's weird is there's a lot of like
Speaker 1: tendency to cite really old studies when it comes to
Speaker 1: extra vision and int introversion, despite there being so much
Speaker 1: work being done on it. So it popped up all
Speaker 1: over the place. Yeah, it's a lot harder to punish
Speaker 1: kids these days. I think, um, you know, and hit
Speaker 1: him anymore. So you gotta do things like take things
Speaker 1: away or have time out. And I don't I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess every kid is different. But when I when
Speaker 1: I put my daughter in her room for any various reason,
Speaker 1: like I go in there a minute later and she's
Speaker 1: just happy as a clam and they're doing her thing
Speaker 1: like this isn't a punishment, or if I take something away,
Speaker 1: she's like, fine, I'll just go do this. Yeah. Like
Speaker 1: that we haven't found a punishment that really works. That's
Speaker 1: pretty awesome. I wonder how how she's going to turn
Speaker 1: out in that result, you know, like, because even if
Speaker 1: you don't spank your kid, if you use guilt or shame,
Speaker 1: that's gonna screw them up possibly spanking. So like being
Speaker 1: a parent, no thank you. Yeah, And that's something I
Speaker 1: have to consider a lot because I have passive aggressive
Speaker 1: tendencies and I had those foisted on me, and I
Speaker 1: do not want to pass that trade along. You know. Yes,
Speaker 1: for sure, we like to think we're raising a good
Speaker 1: future adult. Yeah, I think you guys. I really think
Speaker 1: you guys are I think I hope so you seem
Speaker 1: to be doing a really good job of it. So
Speaker 1: I guess we'll see. Um, let's take a break and
Speaker 1: then we'll come back and answer a really important question
Speaker 1: I think is on everyone's mind. Who's happier learning stop
Speaker 1: with Joshua. Uh So we're back and we're talking about
Speaker 1: a question, um that you just can't not think of
Speaker 1: it when you start talking about introverts and extroverts, especially
Speaker 1: when you learn that extroverts are just getting more of
Speaker 1: a thrill and high from life, Like, who's happier? Does
Speaker 1: that mean that they're happier? And the truck right, the
Speaker 1: answer it's it's yes, they are happier. No, it's not.
Speaker 1: It is too. I mean, study after study shows that
Speaker 1: they have They report a greater subjective well being than
Speaker 1: than people who scores introverts on these personality tests. I
Speaker 1: just don't want to believe this. I mean, I think,
Speaker 1: to me, this is a little bit of a chicken
Speaker 1: or the egg thing. Are they happier because they ah
Speaker 1: go to more parties? You know, that's a very basic
Speaker 1: way to look at it, uh, and go to more
Speaker 1: concerts and public events and things that are more fun
Speaker 1: like don't to me, that's a very narrow view of
Speaker 1: what happiness is though. So, but that seems to be
Speaker 1: like one of the big explanations for why they would
Speaker 1: be happier is it presumes that social functions and being
Speaker 1: around other people is rewarding in a positive experience, and
Speaker 1: so since they're doing that more, there of course going
Speaker 1: to be happier. I don't. I mean, if you're an introvert,
Speaker 1: that's just absolutely not true. Being around people is not
Speaker 1: necessarily a more rewarding experience, That's my point. Might be
Speaker 1: happier at your book club, you know, right, or painting
Speaker 1: your figurines all alone listening to us, for sure. But
Speaker 1: from what I've seen, study after study turns up that extroverts,
Speaker 1: at least in our current understanding of what what subjective
Speaker 1: well being is a k A happiness that like, they
Speaker 1: score higher in that. But again, it doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: we've we've captured happiness kind of like what you were saying, Yeah, like, hey,
Speaker 1: if you want to be happy, if you want to
Speaker 1: kick depression, go to more public events. Yeah. Well, what's weird, Chuck,
Speaker 1: is there are there's some evidence that that's kind of
Speaker 1: the case, UM, and it's found in UM like world leaders.
Speaker 1: There are some world leaders who UM will out themselves
Speaker 1: as as introverts. I think Justin Trudeau's the most recent one,
Speaker 1: but apparently Barack Obama some other like really like well liked,
Speaker 1: generally well liked leaders UM said later that they feel
Speaker 1: like they were introverts and everybody like you lie and
Speaker 1: you know, they really were introverts, but what they did
Speaker 1: was they pushed themselves to engage in extrovert behavior and
Speaker 1: as a result, they were richly rewarded for that. I
Speaker 1: wonder if Clinton was like, not me, baby, I'm name Bevert.
Speaker 1: I was all about it, right. I think Nixon was
Speaker 1: the last US president that was sort of an admitted introvert.
Speaker 1: Case closed. Yeah, it is a profession though, where uh
Speaker 1: boy talk about being around people, like campaigning for public
Speaker 1: office is a slog of meeting strangers, um And the
Speaker 1: only experience we have with that is live shows, which
Speaker 1: is really interesting because as an introvert, you do very
Speaker 1: well on stage and it's probably something that you push
Speaker 1: yourself to to eventually do. It didn't come naturally to
Speaker 1: meet either, so I had to kind of work through
Speaker 1: jitters and stuff as well. But uh I found a
Speaker 1: distinct difference in my energy levels when we were sort
Speaker 1: of meeting and greeting before and after shows that we
Speaker 1: did for a long time, because as much as I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed every single interaction, it is a very draining
Speaker 1: thing to have to be on because when you meet
Speaker 1: someone who's meeting you, they're really up and on. So
Speaker 1: like someone can't come up and say, oh man, I'm
Speaker 1: such a big listener for years and years, and you
Speaker 1: can't just go, I'm really tired right now, so you
Speaker 1: gotta be up to and like what we did times
Speaker 1: a gazillion is a politician running for office, right exactly
Speaker 1: because you really want something from those people, which is
Speaker 1: the yeah, you know, so you gotta be on. I
Speaker 1: know exactly what you mean, but I can imagine that drain.
Speaker 1: The fact is, though you and I do push ourselves
Speaker 1: to go out on stage, and we can both report
Speaker 1: that is really really rewarding to do that. There are
Speaker 1: a few things that make you feel as good as
Speaker 1: coming off off stage after like a show that you
Speaker 1: just knew was a good show. Right, So there is,
Speaker 1: at least anecdotally from our perspective, there is evidence that
Speaker 1: pushing yourself to do extroverted activities is rewarding could increase
Speaker 1: your happiness. But the reason why it doesn't necessarily mean okay,
Speaker 1: you have to be an extrovert to be happy is
Speaker 1: that it's possible our society is really ignoring a lot
Speaker 1: of this stuff that that would make anybody happy that's
Speaker 1: associated with introverted behavior. To because our society places a
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of value on extroverted traits basically, yeah, and
Speaker 1: on the live show thing like, and I've heard this
Speaker 1: from touring musicians. It's there's definitely an energy exchange that
Speaker 1: leaves you, like I have a hard time going to
Speaker 1: sleep after in the hotel. But when we were going
Speaker 1: out for like, you know, six or seven shows in
Speaker 1: a row, I would find in the week after I
Speaker 1: got home it was a challenge for me. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: And I've heard that from touring musicians that you know,
Speaker 1: you got on these big rock and roll tours or
Speaker 1: what rock and roll tours? So square uh and then afterwards,
Speaker 1: like you go back home to your family and like
Speaker 1: that's why a lot of those marriages and families break up,
Speaker 1: because it's just really a stark difference. Can be kind
Speaker 1: of depressed. Even I think, why can't you be more
Speaker 1: like the group? He's right, I'm sure that doesn't fare
Speaker 1: very well. They'll do anything. So um. So, the thing is,
Speaker 1: if you look at how at least I should say
Speaker 1: Western society. I think I said society before, but Western
Speaker 1: society really places a lot of value on extroverted behaviors,
Speaker 1: being outgoing, being friendly, being sociable, being um a leader,
Speaker 1: being unafraid, you know, Captain of Indo Street kind of stuff. Like,
Speaker 1: look at our movie stars. We don't have introverted movie
Speaker 1: stars typically. I don't agree with that. Actually, I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot of introverted movie stars. Okay, but do
Speaker 1: they behave introverted on screen? Well, no, that's my point.
Speaker 1: I think that's all the act. And I think as
Speaker 1: real personality goes, I think there are many introverted movie stars, right,
Speaker 1: So if they just acted like their own introverted selves,
Speaker 1: society wouldn't place any sort of value on that. It
Speaker 1: would be movie starting, right exactly. They place an emphasis
Speaker 1: on the extroverted behavior they're engaging in. You see what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, So I think that's the point. Like,
Speaker 1: if you are in our society, if you act extroverted,
Speaker 1: of course you're going to be happy. But I think
Speaker 1: we're also missing all of the things that can make
Speaker 1: an introverted person happy that apply as well. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you you can see this in the sort of early
Speaker 1: mid two thousand's when like every office in the world
Speaker 1: became this big, huge open warehouse space, which was again
Speaker 1: for us for an office of introverts was just a
Speaker 1: nightmare for so many people. But I think career advancement
Speaker 1: in those situations. You know, the boss, he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: so and so is always just bopping around generating ideas,
Speaker 1: talking to people like they're going to get more attention
Speaker 1: than someone who was like where did my cubicle go? Yeah,
Speaker 1: which isn't fair, you know, to have done to everyone,
Speaker 1: But that's I mean, that's that at Western emphasis on
Speaker 1: on extroverted behavior. Same with like brainstorming sessions. That's the
Speaker 1: opposite of what introverts want to do, and it's also
Speaker 1: the opposite of of what research shows that an introverted
Speaker 1: person um is going to thrive in. They're gonna not
Speaker 1: gonna come up with their best ideas in that setting.
Speaker 1: They're going to come up with their best ideas like
Speaker 1: alone on a walk or something. Yeah, you know what
Speaker 1: they should do. It's interesting. Like a really good boss
Speaker 1: I think would gather the people for the meeting and say,
Speaker 1: all right, so coming up next, we need to solve
Speaker 1: this problem. We're gonna have a big brainstorming session for
Speaker 1: anyone who wants to stay. But if you want to
Speaker 1: go back to your office and really have some alone
Speaker 1: time to think about this, then do that, like offer
Speaker 1: up both alternatives. Yes, exactly. I think that's great. The
Speaker 1: ambivert way up with the ambiverts. As far as the
Speaker 1: idea of who is healthier, that's a big one too.
Speaker 1: It's really easy to say that, like, well here, let's
Speaker 1: just say this. What's happened with all of the information
Speaker 1: that we found is there's been a lot of misinterpretation
Speaker 1: of studies and data where the press will basically say, like,
Speaker 1: if you're an introvert, you're more prone to anxiety. And
Speaker 1: people that are more prone to anxiety or more prone
Speaker 1: to have heart attacks, So introverts are more prone to
Speaker 1: have heart attacks, right precisely. And what they're doing is
Speaker 1: maybe they're talking about a study, but they're uh, they're
Speaker 1: more often than not trying to put a scientific gloss
Speaker 1: on just a popular myth. Right, Yeah, and that's it.
Speaker 1: That happens a lot. There was another study that looked
Speaker 1: at people who have like really negat of outlooks on
Speaker 1: life and have heart disease and compared them to people
Speaker 1: who are less negative and um have heart disease, and
Speaker 1: looked at health outcomes and of course, the more negative
Speaker 1: people had worse health outcomes, and of course the headline
Speaker 1: was introverts experience more health problems. Studies suggests kind of thing,
Speaker 1: and that introverts was nowhere in the study anywhere. They
Speaker 1: didn't use it anywhere, but that got converted to introverts.
Speaker 1: That is a huge problem at the very least it
Speaker 1: is in public opinion. But the bigger problem is, like
Speaker 1: we as the public, can be forgiven, does this kind
Speaker 1: of just take that up. It's not our job. We're
Speaker 1: just kind of interested in that kind of thing, and
Speaker 1: we can be forgiven for making those mistakes. What shouldn't
Speaker 1: be forgiven is when psychologists and other people working in
Speaker 1: these fields do that same thing, make those mistakes, use
Speaker 1: that shorthand and take this as anything more than just
Speaker 1: a model that is a work in progress at best
Speaker 1: right now right And also the notion that we've we've
Speaker 1: got it all figured out when it comes to connecting
Speaker 1: health with personality, um that that is like a lot
Speaker 1: of hubris to suggest that. So there's still so much
Speaker 1: more I think that's going to be uncovered when connecting
Speaker 1: things like heart disease and depression and and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: We just don't know. Yeah, we just don't know. And
Speaker 1: that's a good thing to remember when it comes to
Speaker 1: introversion and extroversion. Um. And there's people out there that say,
Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of this is just
Speaker 1: basically bunk, if not all of it together. That their
Speaker 1: their their premise is basically what we've been talking about,
Speaker 1: that people are just too complex to put into a
Speaker 1: set of categories. And yeah, the Big five Personality Traits
Speaker 1: is probably the most complex and robust personality inventory that
Speaker 1: we've come up with yet. But it's still five different
Speaker 1: categories that you kind of that interact with one another.
Speaker 1: And it seems really primitive when you step back and
Speaker 1: look at that, when you consider just how complex not
Speaker 1: just people are, but the experiences people have on a
Speaker 1: moment to moment basis that influence our moods and our
Speaker 1: decisions and our behavior too. Yeah, and there are people
Speaker 1: who can solidly be like oh no, I'm well young
Speaker 1: said that's not possible, you know what I mean, that
Speaker 1: would consider themselves like I'm an introvert, Like trust me,
Speaker 1: I'm an introvert, or someone who is clearly an extrovert.
Speaker 1: There are those people that have maybe very very little
Speaker 1: overlap with the other. Um, but with anything on a spectrum,
Speaker 1: it's just I don't know, it's very personal. I think
Speaker 1: it's super interesting to think about for yourself because I
Speaker 1: think it helps you navigate the world if you kind
Speaker 1: of think about it. But I also think you can
Speaker 1: overthink that stuff. Yeah, some people say that what you
Speaker 1: just described is actually harmful, that people will start to
Speaker 1: act to type if they are like, well, I'm an introvert.
Speaker 1: I guess I might as well not go to that
Speaker 1: party and they miss meeting you know, a new friend,
Speaker 1: or that you don't take on that project at work
Speaker 1: that would open a new door for him. Like, some
Speaker 1: people say this kind of stuff is harmful labeling people
Speaker 1: like that rather than giving everybody like, hey, some people
Speaker 1: are like this, there's this behavior, there's that behavior, and
Speaker 1: just letting people be as they are. UM that that
Speaker 1: that's a much better idea. Yeah, I think I agree
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah. And then lastly, the other thing, Chuck
Speaker 1: is okay, So let's say the Big five personality inventory.
Speaker 1: It becomes just more and more robust, and it becomes
Speaker 1: clear that yes, this thing is absolutely accurate and you
Speaker 1: can use it to predict the behavior of anybody, like,
Speaker 1: would we want to even have that in existence? Do
Speaker 1: we want to know people like that? And like if
Speaker 1: we did have something that was that accurate, like what
Speaker 1: ends would it be used to? You know, it's just
Speaker 1: a question to chew on, especially if you're an introvert. Yeah,
Speaker 1: these are my favorite ones. I like the ones where
Speaker 1: we can just dish, you know. Yeah, I love dishing
Speaker 1: with you. Uh, let's see you got anything else? I
Speaker 1: got nothing else. I don't have anything else either. And
Speaker 1: since both of us said that, of course, it means
Speaker 1: it's time for listener mayo. I'm going to call this
Speaker 1: pronunciation support, not in the way that you might think. Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: love the show writing to urge you to be less
Speaker 1: hard on yourselves and less accepting of criticism from listeners
Speaker 1: about so called language mistakes. For example, in the recent
Speaker 1: Roe v Waite episode, Chuck at first pronounced substantive with
Speaker 1: the accident on the second syllable and instead of substantive,
Speaker 1: and it made such an impression on him that he
Speaker 1: made fun of himself later in the episode. I tend
Speaker 1: to do that. Uh, Yetsi is from Yetzi by the way, Well,
Speaker 1: as it happens, both Oxford and Miriam Webster document Chuck's
Speaker 1: pronunciation of the word as such, and Josh check out
Speaker 1: what some dictionaries have come to say about contemporary versus contemporaneous.
Speaker 1: Oh boy, I'm excited about this one. The truth is
Speaker 1: that even dictionaries are nothing more than snapshots in time
Speaker 1: of how language is used, and in perfect ones at that,
Speaker 1: I might recommend doing an episode on linguistic descriptivism. Uh.
Speaker 1: In short, language is basically a game in which the
Speaker 1: object is communicate. It's pretty rare for you guys his
Speaker 1: native English speakers to use English in a way that could,
Speaker 1: by any meaningful metric, be considered a mistake. Maybe a
Speaker 1: linguistic descriptivism episode would be would put to bed some
Speaker 1: of the more pedantic criticisms you seem to get from listeners.
Speaker 1: It's a great idea. Nah, who am I kidding that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so with many fondness, I'm sure if that's correct. Uh.
Speaker 1: But when they got the point across exactly uh, and
Speaker 1: that's from yet Sie Lindenbaum, my new favorite listener. And
Speaker 1: then when I told yet See that I was reading this,
Speaker 1: they're back and said, yes, yes, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: the coolest member of my descriptive Ist Linguistics Club this week.
Speaker 1: I love that that's a club man, Yets. He's great.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take Yetsi's advice and really unlow on the
Speaker 1: next person who writes in to tell us where you've
Speaker 1: mispronounced something. Yeah, tell him, sick him, that's right, tell
Speaker 1: him sent you. Um. Well, if you want to be
Speaker 1: like Yets and just be totally great, you can take
Speaker 1: a shot at it in an email. Send it off
Speaker 1: to stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you
Speaker 1: Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.