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Speaker 2: All right, welcome back everyone, We are here for another
Speaker 2: episode of Comeback Stories. I'm here with my main man,
Speaker 2: Darren Waller. D wall Good to see your face.
Speaker 1: Yes, sir man, always good to see you.
Speaker 2: So we're back for round two with Steven Pressfield. If
Speaker 2: you haven't listened into the first episode, I highly recommend
Speaker 2: tapping into that one first before diving into this one.
Speaker 2: But Stephen has written over twenty books. His first book
Speaker 2: didn't come out till he was fifty five. He's written
Speaker 2: bestsellers such as the Legend of bager Vance, The War
Speaker 2: of Art, Do the Work, and so many more. Steven Pressfield,
Speaker 2: welcome back to Round two.
Speaker 3: Thanks Nannie, Thanks Darren's great to be back with you, guys.
Speaker 2: I wanted to dive right back into pulling out some
Speaker 2: of the readings from your book The War of Art,
Speaker 2: and the very first words in that book talk about
Speaker 2: how the most of us have two lives, the life
Speaker 2: we live and the unlived life within us. Between the
Speaker 2: two stands resistance. Can you talk just a little bit
Speaker 2: more about why those were your first words and maybe
Speaker 2: break that down a little bit deeper.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm definitely a believer, Donnie, that there's that we
Speaker 3: all have a calling. We're born with a calling and
Speaker 3: born with a destiny. We're born with an identity. We're
Speaker 3: not just blank slates, and that identity, that calling is
Speaker 3: usually the unlived part of our life. Were usually we
Speaker 3: live out what our parents wanted us to do, what
Speaker 3: society wants us to do. We go to school, we
Speaker 3: get a job, we do blah blah. We sort of
Speaker 3: sleepwalk into a life. Right, But a lot of times,
Speaker 3: there is an unlived thing going on inside us, a
Speaker 3: positive thing, a dream, something that's that's our real self.
Speaker 3: And you might ask yourself, well, why don't we just
Speaker 3: do that? You know, Well, first of all, it's kind
Speaker 3: of hard to know what that is. But secondly, there
Speaker 3: is this this invisible force that the negative force that
Speaker 3: I call resistance with a capital R. That is our
Speaker 3: own self sabotage. It's purpose is to stop us from
Speaker 3: finding out who we really are and stop us from
Speaker 3: living our dream. And for me as a writer, nobody
Speaker 3: ever taught me about this force, and I never heard
Speaker 3: about it. You know, it wasn't in books, it wasn't anything.
Speaker 3: But I could feel it, you know, when I sat
Speaker 3: down to work, you know, and I could feel it
Speaker 3: radiating off this little thing right here.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 3: What stops us from living out that unlived life, that
Speaker 3: dream that we have is this force of self sabotage
Speaker 3: that I call resistance with a capital R. And that's
Speaker 3: really what the War of Art was about and is about.
Speaker 2: Well, you had me in those first lines, because for
Speaker 2: myself personally, and Darren and I speak of this often,
Speaker 2: is that this unlived life that I feel like so
Speaker 2: many people are living in right now. And both Darren
Speaker 2: and I had been given the gift of desperation from
Speaker 2: our addiction, which ultimately streamlined us into a more purpose
Speaker 2: driven life. In that the addiction and the shame and
Speaker 2: the guilt and all the bad decisions that we made,
Speaker 2: really identifying at the root of everything was selfishness and
Speaker 2: self centeredness, understanding that the antidote to that was service
Speaker 2: or is service. So I'm so grateful. I always talk
Speaker 2: about my past and all the even the struggles and
Speaker 2: the pain that I put people through in my own addiction,
Speaker 2: but how that rocketed me into such a different life
Speaker 2: where I feel like my life, my definition of success
Speaker 2: would have been money, material things, and it's so much
Speaker 2: more than that now and it's because it's because of
Speaker 2: my past and then being a coach and helping other
Speaker 2: people find their purpose. There's this gap. It's the life
Speaker 2: we're living in, this unlived life. And so yeah, that
Speaker 2: one just right from the get go.
Speaker 3: You had me, man, let me ask you something. Let
Speaker 3: me ask you, Donnie, how do you help people find
Speaker 3: their purpose?
Speaker 2: So there's some deep inquiry and questions, but I think
Speaker 2: it starts with figuring out what are your natural gifts
Speaker 2: and talents? Identifying what are your gifts? What are your
Speaker 2: natural gifts, What are the things that come easy to you?
Speaker 2: What are the things that people ask you for help with.
Speaker 2: What are those things that when you do them, it's
Speaker 2: like time stops and nothing else matters, and so and
Speaker 2: then it's also figuring out what breaks your heart, like,
Speaker 2: what are those things that just break your heart? For
Speaker 2: me personally, what breaks my heart more than anything in
Speaker 2: the world are the friends and families that get left
Speaker 2: behind when one of their loved ones dies from the
Speaker 2: disease of addiction, alcoholism, or mental health. That is the
Speaker 2: one thing, because I think about what it would have
Speaker 2: been like for my mom or my dad to have
Speaker 2: to wake up every single day knowing they lost their
Speaker 2: son and the aftermath that comes with them. So it's
Speaker 2: this is why Darren and I are on this platform,
Speaker 2: this is why we're talking about this all the time
Speaker 2: to carry this message. So yeah, for me, it's it's
Speaker 2: it's really figuring out what are your gifts, what matters
Speaker 2: most to you, what breaks your heart more than anything,
Speaker 2: and then figuring out how do we use those gifts
Speaker 2: to be of service and share it with the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I would answer, I would agree with that,
Speaker 3: but I would add another thing. If we think about
Speaker 3: what resistance means, I would say, also, what are you
Speaker 3: most afraid of? What is the thing that if if
Speaker 3: we could say to you, okay, you're going to you're
Speaker 3: going to live this out, what thing would that be
Speaker 3: that would scare the shit out of you the most?
Speaker 3: You know? And that's because a lot of times I think,
Speaker 3: you know, like Joseph Campbell had this thing of follow
Speaker 3: your bliss right, which makes it sound like, you know,
Speaker 3: just find the wonderful thing that you like and do it.
Speaker 3: But I think they he left out or the the uh,
Speaker 3: the idea that when you do have that gift, you're
Speaker 3: going to have tremendous resistance. Like we were talking about
Speaker 3: self doubt the last time on episode one, I think
Speaker 3: that was where we kind of left off. You're going
Speaker 3: to the law of resistance is that when you pursue
Speaker 3: that dream, you're going to be terrified. You'll be you know,
Speaker 3: you will be terrified to do that, and you'll be
Speaker 3: racked with self doubt and distraction and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So I would I would add that too to somebody
Speaker 3: you know, looking for a calling. If somebody asked me
Speaker 3: as a writer, I mean, so I sort of knew
Speaker 3: that that was what I needed to do, but I
Speaker 3: also knew that I was just absolutely scared to death
Speaker 3: to do it, and it took me years and years
Speaker 3: even to sit down and hit the first stroke with
Speaker 3: a you know, of a keyboard.
Speaker 1: That's a very interesting layer to add to purpose because
Speaker 1: a lot of times if we're doing something, we're involved
Speaker 1: in something and it doesn't scare us to a degree
Speaker 1: or make us question something, then a lot of times
Speaker 1: we're comfortable. And I know, at least for me, my
Speaker 1: best work or my best product doesn't come with me
Speaker 1: being in my comfort zone. So there has to be
Speaker 1: an element of fear. There's a difference between like a
Speaker 1: paralyzing fear and something that's just keeping me stuck from
Speaker 1: taking action. But I realize now as I look at
Speaker 1: some of the fears that I have and I face
Speaker 1: what the resistance looks like in my life today, it's
Speaker 1: almost necessary for me to rise to another level, or
Speaker 1: to rise to the occasion that is necessary for me
Speaker 1: to fulfill my purpose. So that's that's very interesting. I've
Speaker 1: never thought of that way.
Speaker 3: Would you say, Darren, that like in terms of fear,
Speaker 3: that it's something you have to defeat every day.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I would never say that there's a day that
Speaker 1: I wake up where there isn't some level of fear,
Speaker 1: some level of worry or doubt that I have to
Speaker 1: bring myself back centered from. That's just that's just what
Speaker 1: goes on inside of me. I know there may be
Speaker 1: people with different realities, but as far as me, that's
Speaker 1: what's authentic to me.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's my reality too, exactly. You know, it's
Speaker 3: like the old thing of you have to slay the
Speaker 3: dragon anew every morning. You know it doesn't it doesn't
Speaker 3: go away, and if it does go away, I think
Speaker 3: something's wrong. You better you know regroup.
Speaker 2: I'm really glad you added that layer of what scares you,
Speaker 2: because what comes up for me and hearing that is
Speaker 2: it's just more public speaking like I've spoken on some
Speaker 2: smaller stages, but also knowing that this is the evolution
Speaker 2: for me, especially if my mission, our mission is to
Speaker 2: reach as many people as possible and carry this message,
Speaker 2: that kind of is the next step. And although I've
Speaker 2: done it and I've taught yoga classes in Bryant Park
Speaker 2: in New York City with over like three thousand people there.
Speaker 2: But teaching yoga is completely different than standing on a
Speaker 2: stage I can channel and teaching yoga where it's not
Speaker 2: me speaking, it's it's coming. It's coming through me as
Speaker 2: a vessel. But speaking on a stage, even though it
Speaker 2: might seem the same to many, it's still different. So
Speaker 2: that's kind of for me, that's been my work and
Speaker 2: my work this this year. My word of the year
Speaker 2: has been action, and so taking action on those things
Speaker 2: and leaning into that is is what's coming up as
Speaker 2: you asked that question.
Speaker 3: Mm, yeah, I think it's for me at least, it's
Speaker 3: it's moving into from the known to the unknown. That's
Speaker 3: sort of the fear, you know. Like for me, my
Speaker 3: fear is like when I sit down each day to
Speaker 3: write something, I've always wondered, what the fuck am I
Speaker 3: going to direct today? Or what's happening today? You know?
Speaker 3: And and the reason that it's scary, I think is
Speaker 3: because it's it's the unknown. I mean, in sports, it's like,
Speaker 3: what are you going to do today? Right? Are you gonna,
Speaker 3: you know, have a good game, Are you gonna have
Speaker 3: a bad game? You know? Are you gonna what's going
Speaker 3: to happen when it's out on the field. But that's
Speaker 3: that seems to be the nature of life, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, and I wouldn't even say it's only human life.
Speaker 3: I would think if if you're a wolf for a
Speaker 3: hawk or something like that, they must have that same
Speaker 3: feeling too. You know, Am I going to make a
Speaker 3: kill today? Am I going to be able to feed
Speaker 3: the family today? I think it just seems to be
Speaker 3: the nature of life in the material world, which I
Speaker 3: never knew for years and years, and that wreck, that
Speaker 3: realization was really a turning point for me that this
Speaker 3: is just the way it is. You know, you got
Speaker 3: to get up every day and slug it out.
Speaker 2: How is your relationship with death and the idea of death?
Speaker 2: I'm just curious, with all this work you've done in resistance,
Speaker 2: what does that look like for you today?
Speaker 3: Ah, it's a great question, because actually the book that
Speaker 3: I'm working on right now is about that. It's a novel,
Speaker 3: it's a historical fiction, and you know, it's certainly uh
Speaker 3: in a way, I think like life is kind of
Speaker 3: a series of letting go of certain things right as
Speaker 3: you as you age, right as you get a little
Speaker 3: bit older. You know, you can't run as fast as
Speaker 3: you used to run, you can't jump as high as
Speaker 3: you used to jump, you can't think as fast. You
Speaker 3: can't you know, don't even get into the area of sex,
Speaker 3: you know, but you have to sort of make your
Speaker 3: peace with letting go of certain things. And I think
Speaker 3: the the the ultimate letting go is on your deathbed,
Speaker 3: you know, of being able to, at least in my opinion,
Speaker 3: of not of getting to the point where you where
Speaker 3: you don't you're not desperately clinging to this thing you
Speaker 3: know called life and where and that's where some form
Speaker 3: of belief or true us or faith or whatever you
Speaker 3: want to call it, I think comes in and you know,
Speaker 3: just like jumping out of an airplane or you know,
Speaker 3: floating off into space. That's kind of my thought. I'm
Speaker 3: not ready to have it happen today, but I'm hoping
Speaker 3: that when it does come that I won't be too
Speaker 3: much of a pussy about it, no offense anybody.
Speaker 1: I believe in that perspective, Donnie is one of the
Speaker 1: things that from our conversations and our friendship, that's one
Speaker 1: thing that's stuck with me. And then I thought about
Speaker 1: a lot is death and like seeing it from a
Speaker 1: reverse perspective of you know, when I am on that bed,
Speaker 1: how will I have wanted to go out? You know,
Speaker 1: what is the level of character or integrity that I
Speaker 1: would have wanted to sustain by that time And flip
Speaker 1: it in reverse and live that way because I really
Speaker 1: have no control over when I go or when that
Speaker 1: time maybe, but I do have control over a Moment's
Speaker 1: a moment living that is to the standard and the
Speaker 1: calling that is placed on my life as somebody that
Speaker 1: really makes a difference. And you know, some people may
Speaker 1: hear this and think that they don't really make a difference.
Speaker 1: But it's not necessarily about the magnitude of the difference.
Speaker 1: It's more so about what you do in your own
Speaker 1: sphere of influence, whether it just be your family or
Speaker 1: your children or the people in your cul de sact like,
Speaker 1: it's really just making a difference there and doing that
Speaker 1: day in and day out to the best of your ability.
Speaker 1: And when your time comes, and when your death comes,
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't think I could have done anything
Speaker 1: else more. There may be some little things you were like, ah, man,
Speaker 1: I wish I could have seen this or checked that out,
Speaker 1: but in the grand scheme of things, of giving your
Speaker 1: all into your purpose and really find out all those
Speaker 1: layers that we just discussed in living in that way
Speaker 1: that allow you to just take a deep breath and
Speaker 1: be like, I think I did everything I could while
Speaker 1: I was here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Donnie, what, Doney? What made you? What made you
Speaker 3: ask that question?
Speaker 2: A good question. It just came up for me because
Speaker 2: I think I talk about this topic a lot, and
Speaker 2: I see people in my own life that I know
Speaker 2: aren't truly living. They haven't lived, maybe they haven't cleaned
Speaker 2: up their lives, their side of the street, made amends forgiven,
Speaker 2: maybe haven't lived the life that they knew they were
Speaker 2: called to live. And I can tell that they're scared
Speaker 2: to die because they haven't lived. And then I and
Speaker 2: then I hear the contrast in the words of Darren
Speaker 2: where I hear a man of faith, a man of
Speaker 2: that's been on the other side, but is actually living
Speaker 2: his life and contributing, And with that I think can
Speaker 2: come at a lot more acceptance as to somebody that
Speaker 2: maybe hasn't lived or is just trying to control something
Speaker 2: they can't control. Because fear can either freeze us or
Speaker 2: fuel us. And if we can use the fear of
Speaker 2: dying in a healthy way, then it can teach us
Speaker 2: to live. I always do this a little retreat, extra
Speaker 2: size with everybody in the beginning. Whell I'll have somebody
Speaker 2: look at another person and say I'm going to die,
Speaker 2: You're going to die. All that we have is this moment,
Speaker 2: and it brings you. It drops you into the present
Speaker 2: moment right away, just simply saying those words to each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great. Huh. You know there's a thing that
Speaker 3: I kind of believe became. A friend of mine told
Speaker 3: me this one time, and he said that people will
Speaker 3: tell you that that life is short, but really life
Speaker 3: is long, and we're all going to live. You know,
Speaker 3: if you're like thirty three years old right now and
Speaker 3: you're going to live to, say, eighty nine, that's a
Speaker 3: lot of years. You know. That's like three careers if
Speaker 3: you're in the Marine Corps something like that. And I
Speaker 3: think that we need to sort of have an attitude,
Speaker 3: not like, of all, I'm going to go out and
Speaker 3: party my brains out now because I've only got another
Speaker 3: very short time to live, but really to really ask ourselves,
Speaker 3: what are we here for what is our calling? What
Speaker 3: you know, like when you're saying down here, people haven't
Speaker 3: lived a lot of times someone might interpret that as well,
Speaker 3: let's go out and have fun. Let's go out and
Speaker 3: we're surfing all day long or partying, whatever it is.
Speaker 3: But I think it's more about finding your calling, finding
Speaker 3: your vocation, and then living that out. You know, like
Speaker 3: Norman Mayler, the famous novelist, when he was towards the
Speaker 3: end of his life, he's being interviewed and a reporter
Speaker 3: asked him, do you have any regrets? And I know
Speaker 3: the reporter, I know was thinking that he was going
Speaker 3: to say, you know, I wish I had appreciated the
Speaker 3: sunset more, or I wish I had spent more time
Speaker 3: with my kids. But instead he said, you know, I've
Speaker 3: got three or four more books than me that I
Speaker 3: wanted to write, and I really wish I had had
Speaker 3: the time I had the time to do that. So
Speaker 3: in other words, I'm just trying to kick that living
Speaker 3: your life over a little bit more into your calling
Speaker 3: and your vocation and whatever. You know, that unlived life
Speaker 3: that we were talking about at the very start. To me,
Speaker 3: that's what when I think about death that's kind of
Speaker 3: the whip over my head that makes me say, you know,
Speaker 3: I got to get cracking on that and not leave
Speaker 3: anything on the table when the time comes.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting to me how people can choose once
Speaker 1: they realize like okay, like I'm going to die, or
Speaker 1: they realized the temporary nature of life in the grand
Speaker 1: scheme of things, and some people go to partying and
Speaker 1: using and drinking, and you know, it's what you know,
Speaker 1: Donnie and I have done too. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of terrible times in it, but also we thought at
Speaker 1: a certain time we were having the time of our
Speaker 1: life and having a great time. And it's like, what
Speaker 1: if the unlived life that people have inside of them
Speaker 1: is has to do with them thinking that the only
Speaker 1: real life they have to live is that partying, and
Speaker 1: there's just an overall just level of ignorance, not like
Speaker 1: in a bad, arrogant way, but just not knowing that
Speaker 1: there's so much more deeper. And that's why I just
Speaker 1: look at those people with compassion, because you know, that's
Speaker 1: just the best image of fulfillment or joy that they
Speaker 1: have to give themselves and that they have in their
Speaker 1: mind every single day they go about it. And you know,
Speaker 1: I feel like that's why it's important to us three
Speaker 1: having this conversation here today is to get people to
Speaker 1: maybe not necessarily wake up in a sense, but just
Speaker 1: a question like why am I doing things the way
Speaker 1: that I'm doing? Then why am I going in this direction?
Speaker 1: Like is there something more? And as long as you
Speaker 1: can ask yourself that that question, then their odds are
Speaker 1: you're going to find something that is more.
Speaker 2: So well said, I was just thinking about, as you
Speaker 2: guys were having those conversations around death, why I feel
Speaker 2: like I'm so passionate about mindfulness and yoga, because ultimately
Speaker 2: it's about living a more present life. And if we're
Speaker 2: really worried about how much time or limited time we
Speaker 2: have here on earth, then we want to be here
Speaker 2: for it, which means we need to be present. And
Speaker 2: I think so many people are sleep walking through their
Speaker 2: lives or they're going at warp speed trying to check
Speaker 2: off the next item on the to do list, and
Speaker 2: it's basically being hijacked by this, whether it's a not
Speaker 2: enough story or feeling like I need to do the
Speaker 2: next thing to feel a certain way. And so the
Speaker 2: best thing that we could do for ourselves is figuring
Speaker 2: out the practices that allow us to be present so
Speaker 2: we can truly cherish each moment that we have, each
Speaker 2: conversation that we have, And like Darren said, it brings
Speaker 2: a lot of compassion up for me for those that
Speaker 2: are living such a distracted life, and especially our younger
Speaker 2: generation and our youth who have grown up with technology
Speaker 2: and grown up with phones. And it's like, I don't
Speaker 2: know what's going to happen with that, but it gives
Speaker 2: me purpose. It breaks my heart, but it also gives
Speaker 2: me purpose to know that there's a lot of work
Speaker 2: to be done.
Speaker 3: Then there's a whole other weird thing, you know, speaking
Speaker 3: of time, that when you are doing whatever that calling
Speaker 3: thing is for yourself, that time sort of stands still.
Speaker 3: You know. It's like when we were kids and we
Speaker 3: were playing outside. You know, we'd you know, the whole
Speaker 3: day would go. We didn't even know where it went,
Speaker 3: you know, we're just you know, I guess that's what
Speaker 3: mindfulness is. I guess I don't know, but being you know,
Speaker 3: being so immersed in whatever it is that you're doing,
Speaker 3: which of course you got to love, otherwise you won't
Speaker 3: be immersed in it. Then sort of time goes away
Speaker 3: in some crazy way. I don't even know what the
Speaker 3: answer to that is or what it even means, but
Speaker 3: it is true, you know. It's like that's another answer.
Speaker 3: Like when you're finding your purpose, that's another good question.
Speaker 3: What is the thing that you do that you don't
Speaker 3: notice the passage of time that you wake up and
Speaker 3: oh my god, I was there for four hours out
Speaker 3: of that? You know, That's that's another good sort of
Speaker 3: check mark.
Speaker 2: I would think on that other than writing, what are
Speaker 2: what are what are the things that make time stop
Speaker 2: for you? Other than when you're immersed in your writing.
Speaker 3: One of the things is the crazy answer. But is golf?
Speaker 3: You know, I don't play very much golf. It's I
Speaker 3: don't get a chance to like. But I sort of
Speaker 3: grew up in the game. And that's a good thing where,
Speaker 3: you know, I just they say that one of the
Speaker 3: great things about golf, and I'm sure it's true about
Speaker 3: a lot of sports, is that while you're playing it,
Speaker 3: you can't think of anything else. You know, you really
Speaker 3: can't worry about any of the bullishit in your life.
Speaker 3: And then there's certain people that you love and just
Speaker 3: hanging out with them is another moment where you know
Speaker 3: time just doesn't count. You know, say those those two
Speaker 3: things you know? For me? Do you what about you? Guys?
Speaker 1: Oh Man? Flow state for me is making music.
Speaker 3: Number one ah more than football.
Speaker 1: Yeah, making beats, creating songs. It's not a lot of
Speaker 1: thing that people really know to be a fact about me,
Speaker 1: but that that's my that's my favorite thing to do.
Speaker 1: It's not just a tool to kind of be cool
Speaker 1: or be seen or be seen or expand my brand.
Speaker 1: Like that's just it's something I would do if I
Speaker 1: never released another song, if I never people never knew
Speaker 1: who I was, if nothing came from it. It's something
Speaker 1: that I'd love to do, and I will. I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't take one look at the clock when I'm
Speaker 1: really in that flow.
Speaker 3: You know, Darren, that's another great going back to Donnie,
Speaker 3: what you what, We're going to ask you a question
Speaker 3: about how do you help people find their purpose? Another
Speaker 3: great question in there is what would you do if
Speaker 3: you were never going to get paid for? You know,
Speaker 3: what would you do for free? And that's you know,
Speaker 3: I think when you answer that you've answered something for real,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: I feel like and when you can answer that question,
Speaker 1: I feel like it prevents resistance taking the form as success,
Speaker 1: maybe because I feel like we look at resistance and
Speaker 1: we see fear, self sabotage, self doubt. But I also
Speaker 1: feel like at a certain point, at least I've seen
Speaker 1: it a lot in a lot of different fields of success,
Speaker 1: being a resistance at a certain point because you've achieved
Speaker 1: a certain amount or you've done a certain amount of things,
Speaker 1: and that may end up keeping you in a place
Speaker 1: of complacency or like there's nothing else to be done.
Speaker 1: And I feel like with that question that pushes you
Speaker 1: through that because ultimately there is really no finish line,
Speaker 1: There is no endpoint or destination to arrive to. Like
Speaker 1: Donnie and Donnie always say, the journey is the destination.
Speaker 1: So I feel like that, like you just said, Stephen,
Speaker 1: that question can propel you a long way.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And the other aspect of that, Darren, is the
Speaker 3: aspect of what would you do for free? Is the
Speaker 3: idea that whatever that activity is, you're not doing it
Speaker 3: for an end goal. You're doing it for itself, you know,
Speaker 3: for the thing itself, in which case, going back to yoga, Donnie,
Speaker 3: it becomes a practice, right, And that's really how I
Speaker 3: feel at this stage of my career about writing that
Speaker 3: it's a practice for me. You know, it's something that
Speaker 3: I do every day like somebody would do yoga or
Speaker 3: martial arts or whatever. And not that I'm not trying
Speaker 3: my absolute best. I am, but this the satisfaction is
Speaker 3: independent of the outcome. You know, if a book I
Speaker 3: write doesn't do well or nobody knows it's even there,
Speaker 3: that's hard. But that's not going to stop me. I'm
Speaker 3: going on to the next one and the next one
Speaker 3: after that because I'm doing it for the sake of itself,
Speaker 3: you know, the game and shelf for love of the game.
Speaker 2: So to answer my own question, because I've now I've
Speaker 2: had the opportunity to hear your answers first, I have
Speaker 2: a few of them. One of them is teaching teaching yoga.
Speaker 2: There's nothing in life where time flies more than when
Speaker 2: I teach a yoga class. And again, to be it
Speaker 2: is the one area of my life where I feel
Speaker 2: so confident. I'm not thinking about what I'm saying. Like
Speaker 2: I said, it is channeling, It is not me. It
Speaker 2: is the coolest thing to be able to get out
Speaker 2: of my own way and actually just let the words
Speaker 2: come and flow through me. So teaching yoga, I just
Speaker 2: let a retreat and too loom and being able to
Speaker 2: curate these experiences, but then be able to sit back
Speaker 2: and just watch and witness the transformations and these new
Speaker 2: connections that I know will be lifelong connections. So to
Speaker 2: not only witness meaningful connections, but also to have meaningful
Speaker 2: conversations like this one we're having right now, to me,
Speaker 2: it's everything. It makes it really really hard these days
Speaker 2: to have a surface level conversation. I like cringe and
Speaker 2: have to I feel like I want to run for
Speaker 2: the hills when it's a surface level conversation. So my
Speaker 2: other answer would just be be this right here, these
Speaker 2: meaningful conversations where we're talking about the things that matter most.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's so weird that, like you read
Speaker 3: the newspapers or you watch the news, and with all
Speaker 3: the conflict and polarization that's going on, you think that
Speaker 3: people are just at each other's throats and it's all
Speaker 3: about you know, antagonism. But if you think about just
Speaker 3: the three of us here, or Donnie U, or the
Speaker 3: yoga thing, or any of us that we do so
Speaker 3: much of our lives are really about helping other people
Speaker 3: and interacting with it and being helped, and like, I
Speaker 3: feel like ninety nine percent of my intention in the
Speaker 3: world is to be kind to other people, to help
Speaker 3: other people, and to give something to other And I
Speaker 3: feel like most people are like that, just about everybody
Speaker 3: I know. It is like that makes me wonder, where's
Speaker 3: all this negative stuff coming from? Is it only on
Speaker 3: the news, because when you're with real people in real time,
Speaker 3: you know, I don't. I don't see that stuff. I
Speaker 3: just see good stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe that. I believe it. I believe good
Speaker 1: lies in everybody. It may be buried down beneath some
Speaker 1: certain things, beneath some desires or some thoughts, or you know,
Speaker 1: some pain that's built up inside of people, but I
Speaker 1: feel like, deep down, when you strip all that away
Speaker 1: and just have a conversation with somebody and get to
Speaker 1: know their heart and find common ground with them and
Speaker 1: help them not feel alone, I feel like everybody is
Speaker 1: capable of that kindness and being able to, you know,
Speaker 1: connect with somebody, as opposed to finding what's wrong with
Speaker 1: somebody or a reason to be distant or opposed to somebody.
Speaker 3: Let me ask you, guys from the recovery perspective. Do
Speaker 3: you find that you are more compassionate now than you
Speaker 3: were in a previous incarnation? Did was compassion part of
Speaker 3: a change when you guys, you know, got off the
Speaker 3: road you were on?
Speaker 1: In a way, I could say compassion was the change
Speaker 1: because I see now having a relationship with God and
Speaker 1: realizing that the moment that I decided to lean on
Speaker 1: and surrender to God, my life changed for the better.
Speaker 1: It allowed me to see other people and be like,
Speaker 1: no matter what they may be doing, no matter how
Speaker 1: much of an asshole that person is, no matter how
Speaker 1: much hate they have in their heart, if God gets
Speaker 1: hands on them, they have the ability to change tenfold.
Speaker 1: And I fully believe that because it happened to me.
Speaker 1: So when I see somebody living in a manner that
Speaker 1: may be not be who they truly are or their
Speaker 1: truest potential, that compassion kicks in because that was me.
Speaker 1: I see me when I look at them. If I
Speaker 1: see me, and if I look at them and I
Speaker 1: get agitated, it's a mirror because it's reflecting back to
Speaker 1: me and who I was. And it may be a
Speaker 1: moment where I forgot where I was. Because my life
Speaker 1: is so good today, but I often need that reminder
Speaker 1: by seeing people that may be in a state that
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I feel like the gift of once again,
Speaker 2: the desperation that Darren and I both had at our
Speaker 2: rock bottoms forced us. You know, literally, I'm on my
Speaker 2: knees asking God, please tell me what I need to
Speaker 2: do to get it right. This time, I needed that
Speaker 2: gift of desperation that rocketed me into this journey of
Speaker 2: personal development that started with my first therapy session ever
Speaker 2: in rehab and then diving into the Twelve Steps, which
Speaker 2: the twelve Steps they're for everybody. I mean, I know
Speaker 2: they're geared towards addiction, and you know, codependency has its
Speaker 2: own twelve steps alan on, but everybody could use those
Speaker 2: twelve steps. It's not about not drinking or getting high.
Speaker 2: It's about being free. And the beautiful part about doing
Speaker 2: our own work is is that when we work on ourselves,
Speaker 2: we start to see the world through a different lens.
Speaker 2: And so when we see that you know, asshole at
Speaker 2: the grocery store that's you know, being mean to the
Speaker 2: grocery clerk, we can actually see through the eyes of
Speaker 2: compassion and understand that hurt people, hurt people, and that
Speaker 2: if that person who's being so mean to a stranger
Speaker 2: is probably being ten times as mean to themselves, because
Speaker 2: it's just a projection outward. So I think understanding that
Speaker 2: and just understanding all of my old character defects and
Speaker 2: why I did the things that I did, it was
Speaker 2: because I was hurting. And so it's just that whole
Speaker 2: idea of like pain is part of the shared human
Speaker 2: experience and even though my pain looks different than yours,
Speaker 2: darn and I specifically have a responsibility to transmute that
Speaker 2: pain into a greater purpose and not inflicted onto others.
Speaker 2: And if we do mess up and inflict it onto others,
Speaker 2: we have a tool that allows us to go make
Speaker 2: an amends and make it right. And we make that
Speaker 2: amends not for the other person, but for ourselves so
Speaker 2: that we can be free and that we don't fall
Speaker 2: back into old negative thoughts and self sabotage.
Speaker 3: Now I'm going to ask both of you, guys, and
Speaker 3: I'm going to answer this myself first, what was that pain?
Speaker 3: What you know? What was it was it? That? You know?
Speaker 3: I'll say it for myself, so I want to hear
Speaker 3: what you guys say is for me, it goes back
Speaker 3: to what you first said, Donnie about the unlived life.
Speaker 3: You know, my pain was that I was not I
Speaker 3: didn't have the guts to live out that unlived life,
Speaker 3: which for me was facing the blank page and trying
Speaker 3: to teach myself to be a writer because I was
Speaker 3: afraid of it or whatever whatever. But that that was
Speaker 3: my pain, even though I couldn't have really put my
Speaker 3: finger on it in the moment if you back me
Speaker 3: against the wall and slap me around, I still couldn't
Speaker 3: have gripped my finger on it. But on some level
Speaker 3: I knew that was true. But that was my pain.
Speaker 3: But let me ask you what was your What was
Speaker 3: the pain that was driving you guys, Let me ask
Speaker 3: both of you.
Speaker 1: I believe that one of the origins of my pain
Speaker 1: was when I was younger, I'll be constantly told that
Speaker 1: I wasn't black enough by people that were my skin
Speaker 1: color growing up, and really it put me in. It
Speaker 1: put me into this state of always having to please people,
Speaker 1: or always being hyper aware of what other people thought
Speaker 1: about me, and in turn, it made me almost like
Speaker 1: a slave to what other people thought of me. And
Speaker 1: so the pain ultimately became like discussed with myself because
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily have the courage or now looking back,
Speaker 1: the tools to break free from what other people thought
Speaker 1: of me, and that people pleasing nature. I just I
Speaker 1: knew I was a slave to it, and I thought
Speaker 1: so poorly of myself that I couldn't break away from it.
Speaker 1: So I was constantly in that place of feeling shame
Speaker 1: from uh, not living up to people's standards, and at
Speaker 1: the same time looking in the mirror and seeing who
Speaker 1: I was. Those two kind of combined and just were
Speaker 1: hit me with body blows.
Speaker 3: H Wow, that's interesting. Huh Donnie, what was what was yours?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So for me, it was the loss of identity
Speaker 2: of baseball athlete that being stripped away, stripped away from
Speaker 2: me through a traumatic injury was the was the that's
Speaker 2: basically the catalyst of what started my addiction. As I
Speaker 2: had a massive surgery, got over prescribed painkillers, I had
Speaker 2: a doctor that pretty much screwed me over, and so
Speaker 2: there was these resentments building. I was the victim. My
Speaker 2: parents didn't understand, my friends, you know, they're they're screwing
Speaker 2: me over, just like full victim mode. And it wasn't
Speaker 2: until I got into rehab and unders so that it
Speaker 2: wasn't the actual physical pain, and when I stopped blaming
Speaker 2: everybody else and I took personal responsibility and ownership for
Speaker 2: my part in my life. It was actually the loss
Speaker 2: of purpose, a loss of identity, the loss of my love,
Speaker 2: the love of my life. Where I got all my
Speaker 2: validation and approval was through performance in sports, and so
Speaker 2: for that to be taken away from me, where would
Speaker 2: I get it?
Speaker 3: Then?
Speaker 2: So it created just this so as a loss of
Speaker 2: the purpose. It was the emotional pain of that loss
Speaker 2: that I was numbing out, not the actual physical pain
Speaker 2: of from the trauma of the of the surgery.
Speaker 3: Uh huh. Interesting, Thanks for jo I feel like I'm
Speaker 3: interviewing you guys.
Speaker 1: But that's a great question.
Speaker 3: Being honest, that's really great.
Speaker 2: This is the way that we like to roll. I
Speaker 2: love these questions. We like to keep it interactive and yeah,
Speaker 2: these are powerful. I wanted to ask you you had
Speaker 2: talked about the the warrior virtues. I know you mentioned these,
Speaker 2: and maybe we can break them down. I believe it's courage, patience,
Speaker 2: love for others, selflessness, and embracing adversity. Can you talk
Speaker 2: about where you where you pulled those from and how
Speaker 2: they've been meaningful in your life, and maybe break them
Speaker 2: down a little bit.
Speaker 3: Okay, that's a good question. The second book that I
Speaker 3: wrote was was called Gates a Fire, and it was
Speaker 3: about the the three hundred Spartans the Battle of Thermopylae,
Speaker 3: and that sort of subject kind of came out of
Speaker 3: nowhere for me. It wasn't like I was, you know,
Speaker 3: a classical scholar who had been dying or tell a
Speaker 3: story or anything. But so in my imagination, I'm kind
Speaker 3: of immersing myself in in the in the a warrior
Speaker 3: culture and what that meant, you know, particularly back in
Speaker 3: those days when warfare was shield to shield, so close
Speaker 3: to the other guy that if you're going to kill
Speaker 3: your the other guy, he's close enough to kill you.
Speaker 3: In other words, it's not like you're shooting from you know,
Speaker 3: a mile away or something like that. And as I
Speaker 3: began to think about those warrior virtues of courage, selflessness, patients,
Speaker 3: the willing embracing of adversity, love for your comments, and
Speaker 3: even love for the enemy, I began to became clear
Speaker 3: to me that those were the same virtues that an
Speaker 3: artist needs. You know, a writer, a filmmaker, whatever it is,
Speaker 3: it's withinside your own head. You're going up against this
Speaker 3: enemy every day, the enemy being a blank page and
Speaker 3: your own tendency to sabotage yourself. And I thought, I
Speaker 3: need these virtues myself. You know, these are the virtues,
Speaker 3: and they're also the virtues by the way of a month.
Speaker 3: You know, if you think about the growing life within
Speaker 3: a pregnant woman or a woman with a small baby,
Speaker 3: you know, courage, selflessness, the brace of adversity, the the
Speaker 3: the giving yourself over to others, to the care of others,
Speaker 3: that kind of thing. So anyway, that's sort of how
Speaker 3: I began to think of an artist's virtues or writer's virtues,
Speaker 3: that they were really the same as a warrior's virtues.
Speaker 2: Which of those virtues would you say your strongest that.
Speaker 3: That's a great question. And I would say, I don't
Speaker 3: know if I'm strongest that. But if you ask me
Speaker 3: what the most important one is, I would say selflessness
Speaker 3: in every in in both its meanings, in the sense
Speaker 3: of wanting to give to others, you know, like a warrior.
Speaker 3: The supreme act of a warrior, let's say, is throwing
Speaker 3: yourself on a hangar and so that you know, you
Speaker 3: save your buddy's life, right, or any other act like
Speaker 3: that where you put yourself second and you put your
Speaker 3: brothers and sisters first. But the other half of that
Speaker 3: is of selflessness is moving past the ego, obliterating the ego.
Speaker 3: Like Donnie, you were talking about when you teach a
Speaker 3: yoga class, how you feel like you're channeling something right,
Speaker 3: that words are coming through you. And I think I
Speaker 3: mean as a writer, when you get into the groove
Speaker 3: or into a flow, and Darren, I'm sure this is
Speaker 3: the same. You know on the football field that when
Speaker 3: you're in a in a zone and things are just happening.
Speaker 3: I mean, how do you eat haul in a pass when
Speaker 3: you're running as fast as you possibly can and you
Speaker 3: know some super athlete is trying to defend against you
Speaker 3: and you do it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I think what's happening then, is our ego is we've
Speaker 3: found a way to get our ego out of the way,
Speaker 3: and we just sort of surrendered to the moment and
Speaker 3: something comes through us, like you're saying, Donnie's voice comes
Speaker 3: through you, Like I mean, it was it Jesus who
Speaker 3: said to the apostles. You know, don't be afraid if
Speaker 3: you don't know what to say, just open your mouth
Speaker 3: and I will speak it through you. I think that
Speaker 3: was something the Bible, But it is a surrender to
Speaker 3: a higher something or other, you know, a mystery that
Speaker 3: we don't know. So I would say selflessness is kind
Speaker 3: of the supreme virtue, both of a warrior and of
Speaker 3: an artist and of anybody that's you know, of a
Speaker 3: mother again, the same thing, what is the supreme virtue
Speaker 3: of a mother is to give herself completely to the
Speaker 3: child and to her children, you know. And mothers all
Speaker 3: do that. They run into a burning building, you know,
Speaker 3: to save their child. Right.
Speaker 1: That's powerful, man, because I feel like a lot of
Speaker 1: men need to hear that. Like you said, you gave
Speaker 1: a great example of mothers and that instinct to lay
Speaker 1: their life down or do whatever it takes for their child.
Speaker 1: But a lot of men we think of warriors, we
Speaker 1: think of like stepping on whoever to get to wherever
Speaker 1: we need to go, being the king holding somebody's head
Speaker 1: up that you cut off. But really like to bring
Speaker 1: to attention the power of you know, love for others
Speaker 1: and selflessness and how that allows you to you know,
Speaker 1: be in that flow state, because you know, if you
Speaker 1: bring your resistance into a game into wherever the space
Speaker 1: is that you right into the yoga onto your yoga matt,
Speaker 1: You're you're bringing your own problems there. You're becoming your
Speaker 1: own enemy in a sense. Whereas you know when you
Speaker 1: naturally get into that place where you flow, like you said,
Speaker 1: when if I'm in a game and I and I'm
Speaker 1: really just there and fully in the moment, I've let
Speaker 1: go of all the things that I bring to the table,
Speaker 1: whether it be I need a certain amount of stats,
Speaker 1: I need a certain amount of catches, I need these
Speaker 1: things to happen for me. No, it's more so about
Speaker 1: what I'm giving to this environment, what I'm giving to
Speaker 1: the people were in the same color as me, what
Speaker 1: I'm doing to to best be of service. And a
Speaker 1: lot of men I feel like still need to grasp
Speaker 1: that fully because we feel like masculinity is shown and
Speaker 1: stepping on people and killing everything and hustling, hustling, grinding,
Speaker 1: Whereas the ability to be patient, ability to be selfless
Speaker 1: really is the quality imire and men the most, and
Speaker 1: I feel like it's just just a powerful man. I
Speaker 1: love that.
Speaker 2: Angle, Steven, how do you feel like you Well, I'd
Speaker 2: love to know how you deal with distractions today, and
Speaker 2: then maybe some tips and recommendations on helping others deal
Speaker 2: with distractions, since we pretty much live in a world
Speaker 2: that's addicted and afflicted to distraction. What are some tips
Speaker 2: for Darren and I and everybody else listening.
Speaker 3: Well, I've never been in one of your yoga classes, Donnie,
Speaker 3: but I would have imagined that what you say to
Speaker 3: people is something like, this floor that we're gonna be
Speaker 3: working on now is a sacred space. And when you
Speaker 3: step onto this floor and you unroll your matt, leave
Speaker 3: all your troubles at the door. You know, in fact,
Speaker 3: check your ego at the door. We're here to work
Speaker 3: on one thing and to surrender to one thing. And
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's what you say, but I imagine
Speaker 3: is what you say. And certainly in the martial arts
Speaker 3: practice or any other thing like that, that's what the
Speaker 3: sense they will say, right And I just kind of
Speaker 3: feel the same thing. You know, when I go into
Speaker 3: my office, which I'm in right now, it's a sacred
Speaker 3: space and nothing is allowed in. I turn everything off,
Speaker 3: there's no email, there's nothing coming in. And I'm really
Speaker 3: you know, speaking of a higher power or whatever it is.
Speaker 3: I really believe that when we if you're if you're
Speaker 3: a painter, if you're a dancer, if you're a writer,
Speaker 3: or if you're a yoga instructor, if you're an athlete,
Speaker 3: that it's the arena that you're on is inhabited by
Speaker 3: the gods, you know, and you are trying to serve
Speaker 3: them when you're there. So check your ego at the door,
Speaker 3: check your troubles at the door, and just focus entirely
Speaker 3: on what you're doing. So I just fortunately I grew
Speaker 3: up long before the era of social media, so I'm
Speaker 3: not addicted to that. You know, it's very easy for
Speaker 3: me to turn off, you know, my phone and Instagram.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't care about that. But you absolutely,
Speaker 3: I think have to be just like you and the
Speaker 3: yoga class. If somebody came in and interrupted, you know,
Speaker 3: you would kick them out in two seconds. Everybody would
Speaker 3: be with you. They'd all jump on them and throw
Speaker 3: them into the ocean. You know, we're not here to
Speaker 3: be distracted, you know, shut up, get the fuck out
Speaker 3: of here, you know, let us focus on what we're
Speaker 3: trying to do. You got to be ruthless. I think
Speaker 3: you really have to be ruthless. I'm sure Vince Lombardi
Speaker 3: would not let anybody screw around on the practice field,
Speaker 3: and you shouldn't.
Speaker 2: I feel like that's amazing advice and I'm really resonating
Speaker 2: with it just from my own life and talking about
Speaker 2: how everything can be a ritual, everything can be sacred.
Speaker 2: And for me, I always talk about the morning. My
Speaker 2: morning routine is sacred, so there's nothing that can get
Speaker 2: in the way of Sometimes it's fifteen minutes max. But
Speaker 2: there are certain things that are non negotiables where I
Speaker 2: will not allow the phone or email or technology or
Speaker 2: anything to get in the way of that. And I
Speaker 2: think we can everything we can do in our lives
Speaker 2: could be sacred, from vacuuming our floors to eating our
Speaker 2: sitting down, playing with our children or our pets. But
Speaker 2: I think I teach this mindfulness thing, but I still
Speaker 2: find myself getting distracted, And although I'm aware of it,
Speaker 2: I'm also so aware of how many other people must
Speaker 2: be struggling with this. If I'm kind of a teacher
Speaker 2: of this, and yet still my world can get penetrated
Speaker 2: from technology or me thinking that something is actually more
Speaker 2: important than having alone time with presence or God, or
Speaker 2: something is more important than centering myself or meditating. It's
Speaker 2: like any little chance that little self sabotage, that little
Speaker 2: voice will try to find its way in and try
Speaker 2: to tell me that something is actually more important than
Speaker 2: being present and having the mind and body in the
Speaker 2: same place at the same time.
Speaker 3: H Yeah, that's a great word to use. Non negotiable.
Speaker 3: I mean, I've heard other people it's a great you know,
Speaker 3: that is what it is. Right, This is not up
Speaker 3: for discussion. You know, there's a hard boundary here and
Speaker 3: you just have to have it.
Speaker 1: Donnie. I love what you said, Donnie about when you
Speaker 1: talk about I'm teaching this, I'm teaching mindfulness, but sometimes
Speaker 1: I still struggle. And I feel like that's super powerful
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of things that I may do
Speaker 1: in my daily life where I'm like, man's as much
Speaker 1: as I talk about this, as much as I share
Speaker 1: about this, like I'm not doing it right every time,
Speaker 1: or I'm not you know, I may slip in moments,
Speaker 1: But it's more so like we've been talking about this
Speaker 1: whole episode, like it's more of I'm just practicing. I'm
Speaker 1: continuing to practice, and as I advance in my practice,
Speaker 1: I have little gifts, little nuggets that I can give off,
Speaker 1: a little little bits of wisdom that I gained along
Speaker 1: the way. But by no means confused that with the
Speaker 1: fact that I am perfect, or that I even need
Speaker 1: to be perfect in the first place, Like what's what's
Speaker 1: the point of perfect? And but yeah, what you just
Speaker 1: said just spoke to me because I feel that same
Speaker 1: emotion too, But it's just more so continuing on this
Speaker 1: path with presence to it, and like you said, making
Speaker 1: everything sacred and knowing that I define what is sacred,
Speaker 1: and from there I can pour into other people's lives
Speaker 1: because I see them as sacred because I first see
Speaker 1: what I do and who I am as sacred. So
Speaker 1: I just want to say I relate to that big time, and.
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody relates to perfect. And I'm constantly
Speaker 2: reminded of that as my life completely changed when I
Speaker 2: actually shared the imperfections and the past and my messy past,
Speaker 2: Like everything changed for me the day that I shared
Speaker 2: my story in a yoga event that I did so
Speaker 2: in this world where I think so many people are
Speaker 2: chasing this image of perfection. Yet it's not relatable. But
Speaker 2: yet so many people are trying to portray this life
Speaker 2: of perfection. So I mean, man, I'm tripping over the
Speaker 2: stuff I'm teaching every single day. I'm aware of it,
Speaker 2: and I just think it's great to to share that,
Speaker 2: and it also, I think just makes me more relatable
Speaker 2: and humanizes me as maybe a teacher of this, knowing
Speaker 2: that I'm in the work with all of you every
Speaker 2: single day.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I've had the same thing too,
Speaker 3: where I'm struggling in a book that I'm working on,
Speaker 3: and I say to myself, you know, you wrote about
Speaker 3: this in the War of Art and these other things.
Speaker 3: You better pick up that book and read it again, sucker,
Speaker 3: you know, and pay attention to it, because it's hard.
Speaker 3: It's hard to you know. You know, we're all struggling
Speaker 3: with it.
Speaker 1: I have a question for you, Stephen. I know, at
Speaker 1: least for me, I've had success in my line of
Speaker 1: work as an athlete, but it hasn't necessarily removed the
Speaker 1: resistance and the level of the way that I feel
Speaker 1: like it should. I've seen as you've now, You've gone
Speaker 1: from no books, no titles until your fifties to now
Speaker 1: selling multiple millions of copies of books. Has that changed
Speaker 1: the level of resistance that's used in your life today?
Speaker 3: No, And I'm glad to hear that you're the same way, Darren. No,
Speaker 3: I don't you know in my experience that that tendency
Speaker 3: to self sabotage never goes away, and it must be
Speaker 3: the same in recovery. Right, it's one day at a time, right, right,
Speaker 3: that the devil is always there waiting, you know, to
Speaker 3: pull you down the rabbit hole, you know. So yeah,
Speaker 3: I do think no resistance never gets any any easier
Speaker 3: for me, and I don't expect I think it's just
Speaker 3: a fact of life, a law of life.
Speaker 2: Why why do you think universal?
Speaker 1: Are like?
Speaker 2: Resistance is so universal?
Speaker 3: I forgot if we even talking. I have a whole
Speaker 3: kind of fury. But did we talk about the ego
Speaker 3: and the self the last time we were on our
Speaker 3: part one thing? I mean, I talk about I have
Speaker 3: a heard about this. I have I have no idea
Speaker 3: if this is true or not. But people sometimes have
Speaker 3: asked me, where do you think this resistance comes from?
Speaker 3: You know, why does it even exist? You know? Why
Speaker 3: isn't life easy? Why do we always have to fight
Speaker 3: this thing. And I think that this is kind of
Speaker 3: a long you know, there with me for a couple
Speaker 3: of minutes here, I think, actually, right up the hill
Speaker 3: behind me, did you guys ever see a movie called
Speaker 3: Billy Jack starring Tom Laughlin? Does that ring a bell
Speaker 3: at all? Ah? A great a great movie from way
Speaker 3: way way back. Anyway, Tom Laughlin was a kind of
Speaker 3: an actor and a superstar on his level, but he
Speaker 3: also was a He used to live right behind me,
Speaker 3: That's why I'm pointing up the hill. And he also
Speaker 3: was a kind of a Youngian therapist, and he used
Speaker 3: to kind of a renegade crazy guy. And one of
Speaker 3: the one of the things he used to do I'm
Speaker 3: going to be a really long version here, is people
Speaker 3: would come to him as a last resort, like when
Speaker 3: they had incurable cancer, you know, the last you know, right,
Speaker 3: they were desperate, and he would say to them, was
Speaker 3: there anything in your life that you an activity, are
Speaker 3: a calling that you really loved? And particularly when you
Speaker 3: were young. And someone would say to him, like a
Speaker 3: woman that had cancer and was like seventy years old
Speaker 3: or something, she'd say to him, you know, when I
Speaker 3: was a kid, I loved the piano, and I for
Speaker 3: like fifteen years I wanted to be a concert pianist.
Speaker 3: And Tom Laughlin would say to her, take up the
Speaker 3: piano again right now, you know, and do it full tilt.
Speaker 3: You know, get a great teacher, et cetera, et cetera,
Speaker 3: et cetera, and sure enough cancers would go into remission.
Speaker 3: So what he was thinking of, I know, I'm going
Speaker 3: a long way around Robin Hood's barn here. His kind
Speaker 3: of the he was that there are two aspects to
Speaker 3: our identity, our ego, the little small part of ourselves
Speaker 3: that's you know, that runs the show and has a rationality,
Speaker 3: and then the bigger part was the self with the
Speaker 3: capital s self and the self contained in terms of
Speaker 3: like that lady with a piano, he was trying to
Speaker 3: get her to reconnect with that deeper part of herself,
Speaker 3: the artistic part of herself, the part where flow existed,
Speaker 3: and the self also was lay adjacent in his co
Speaker 3: in tom Laughlin's definition to what he called the divine ground,
Speaker 3: in other words, the higher power, whatever it is above ourselves,
Speaker 3: so far different from the ego. The ego is the
Speaker 3: opposite of that, always trying to grab hold of steering
Speaker 3: wheel and run the show. So what I think resistance
Speaker 3: comes from is if we're living in that ego world
Speaker 3: and suddenly we receive some kind of a moment of
Speaker 3: enlightenment or contact with something higher, and we decide that
Speaker 3: we're gonna we're going to shift our identity to the self,
Speaker 3: to the piano playing self, to the writing self, to
Speaker 3: the athletic self. The ego doesn't like that, because we're
Speaker 3: going to put the ego out of business if we
Speaker 3: make that move to the self. So I think that
Speaker 3: it's the ego that creates this resistance, and we'll try
Speaker 3: to sabotage us. You know, like if and even real
Speaker 3: people in our real lives, if we have like a
Speaker 3: group of friends or even our family that loved us,
Speaker 3: and we suddenly decide to make a change in a
Speaker 3: really positive way, right to go away from some negative
Speaker 3: behavior that we share with our family and friends, that
Speaker 3: we're going to go to something higher than that. You
Speaker 3: can watch our family and our friends try to sabotage us, right.
Speaker 3: They will say to us, Hey, what's the matter, man,
Speaker 3: You've changed. You're not the way he used to be.
Speaker 3: You know, what do you think you're good for us anymore.
Speaker 3: We can't get stoned like we used to get We
Speaker 3: can't go hang out, just be a regular guy. What
Speaker 3: are you trying? You know? So I think the resistance
Speaker 3: is the ego. The egos desperate, you know, wish to
Speaker 3: hang on to its own power and to not let
Speaker 3: us move to that higher level. So if we put
Speaker 3: it in terms of recovery or twelve step, you know,
Speaker 3: the whole thing of acknowledging a higher power is a
Speaker 3: huge part of that. Would not work without it. Program
Speaker 3: wouldn't work without it, right to So anyway, that's kind
Speaker 3: of a long rambling way of I forgot even what
Speaker 3: the question was on it, but I think that was.
Speaker 3: That's my answer.
Speaker 2: That's as it's put it in perspective. And I love
Speaker 2: at the end how you talked about when you are
Speaker 2: on that path of recovery or you're taking a path
Speaker 2: of spirituality or personal development, how you will get that
Speaker 2: projection from other people, because when they see you on
Speaker 2: that path, that can often threaten because they know they're
Speaker 2: not living, and it might be on a subconscious level
Speaker 2: where they get threatened by your own freedom, and then
Speaker 2: ultimately they project it back onto you, which is why
Speaker 2: it's so important to never take anything personal, because it's
Speaker 2: not it's their shit they're.
Speaker 3: Putting back on you, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So if you are going to take that path and
Speaker 2: you're you know, you're going to step into a different
Speaker 2: way of life, maybe different than the people around you,
Speaker 2: get ready for some projection and just understand that it's
Speaker 2: not personal. And even the people that are inspired by
Speaker 2: what you're doing and they're telling you how awesome you are,
Speaker 2: don't take that personally either. Just stay in your lane
Speaker 2: and trust the good work that you're doing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 2: Close us out by answering the question, so, what would
Speaker 2: you tell somebody somebody that's struggling right now in some
Speaker 2: aspect of their life. They know they're struggling, but they
Speaker 2: don't know what to do about it. What would you
Speaker 2: tell that person?
Speaker 3: I would I would go back to what I said
Speaker 3: a little earlier, Bonnie, and I would sort of ask
Speaker 3: that person, what is it that you're most afraid of? What?
Speaker 3: What fear is there in the deepest part of your heart?
Speaker 3: You know? And but and I would sort of tie
Speaker 3: that fear, that fear is tied to a dream in
Speaker 3: the sense of what is the dream that, if you
Speaker 3: could make it come true, would be everything that you wanted.
Speaker 3: And it might be a very weird dream. You know,
Speaker 3: might necessarily, you know, when America we're sold as bullshit
Speaker 3: about success and all that sort of stuff, but it
Speaker 3: might be something completely different. You know, if I could
Speaker 3: just be a model for other people, if I could
Speaker 3: somehow ease the suffering of other people, that that kind
Speaker 3: of thing, and if that dream elicits tremendous fear, then
Speaker 3: start in that direction somehow. Take the first step, because
Speaker 3: you're going to be wrong at first. You're going to
Speaker 3: take a wrong turn. You're gonna have to course correct,
Speaker 3: you have to go back. You know, you're going to
Speaker 3: go through a number of jobs and and efforts to
Speaker 3: get there. But each one, I think we'll get closer
Speaker 3: and closer to it. What are you most afraid of?
Speaker 3: And what is it that you that is your your dream,
Speaker 3: your deepest dream. Wow. On the other hand, let me
Speaker 3: say this, it's always a long haul. The hero's journey
Speaker 3: can take your whole life, and there really is no
Speaker 3: quick fix, you know, so buckle up. It's going to
Speaker 3: be a long Not everybody can be like Darren that
Speaker 3: has becomes a superstar, you know, at a very young age.
Speaker 3: But for most of us, it takes a long it's
Speaker 3: a long haul, so buckle up and be ready for that.
Speaker 2: Well, if you listen to this episode, I hope you
Speaker 2: had a pen and paper. I think you rattled off
Speaker 2: so many deep questions of inquiry, which I know I
Speaker 2: will go back and write all these questions and answer
Speaker 2: them and also ask all my coaching clients these questions
Speaker 2: because there's some deep, profound reflection that will really get
Speaker 2: get you clear on on maybe what's getting in the
Speaker 2: way and where you're wanting to go, and you know
Speaker 2: what's stopping you, slowing you down, and what matters most
Speaker 2: in your life. So thank you for bringing just so
Speaker 2: much value and wisdom, and thank you for your consistency
Speaker 2: and the work where you just keep hammering out book
Speaker 2: after book. And thank you for the time, you know,
Speaker 2: two hours spending it with Darren and I. It's been
Speaker 2: an honor.
Speaker 3: Hey, thanks Donnie, Thanks Darren, Thanks for having me. This
Speaker 3: has been a lot of fun, great conversations. You can't
Speaker 3: say that we were on the surface this time, you know,
Speaker 3: we tried to go for it about Thanks a lot.
Speaker 3: You guys, you have my great respect and it's a lot,
Speaker 3: a ton of fun to do this. I'm happy to
Speaker 3: come back anytime. We'll do part three anytime.
Speaker 1: Thank you, man. I appreciate you, you know, just the
Speaker 1: way that you right and the way that you show
Speaker 1: up in the world, and just through giving people ways
Speaker 1: to navigate resistance and just knowing that though our fear
Speaker 1: may may always be there, it may not go anywhere.
Speaker 1: You may always have to face it and fight it,
Speaker 1: but you give us tools and you give us hope
Speaker 1: to know that on the other side of that fight
Speaker 1: is something that we've always wanted. So I just appreciate
Speaker 1: you and your perspective.
Speaker 3: Well, thanks to you guys too. Yeah, my greatest respect
Speaker 3: you know, and admiration. Keep up the great work.
Speaker 1: Appreciate what's up.
Speaker 2: Comeback stories, family. It's Donnie dropping in here. So did
Speaker 2: you know that Darren and I's relationships started by me
Speaker 2: being his personal development, mindfulness and mindset coach. I want
Speaker 2: to let you know about both my one on one
Speaker 2: coaching program, The Shift and my group Master Elevate your Purpose.
Speaker 2: These coaching programs are specifically designed for people who are
Speaker 2: ready to take the next step in their purpose and
Speaker 2: level up their career, personal finances, and have more connected,
Speaker 2: deep and meaningful relationships. My gift and part of my
Speaker 2: purpose is to help others take that next step in
Speaker 2: leveling up their lives so that they can have a
Speaker 2: greater impact on the lives of others, create success that
Speaker 2: sustainable yet evolves and grows, and help build a legacy
Speaker 2: that will outlive your life. If this is calling you,
Speaker 2: just go to Donnie Starkins dot com and apply for
Speaker 2: either one of my programs.