1 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Dexter. Before we get in today's episode, just 2 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: the heads up that we're going to be talking about suicide. 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: So if that's not something you're comfortable hearing about, no worries, 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: and we'll catch on the next one. 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 2: Nikol was a star student. His parents are farmers and 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: comes from a humble family. In fact, when he landed 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: a job at Ula Crutrem, which is a high profile 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 2: AI company, banners went up in his village because nobody 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: had gone as far as he had in that village, 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: you know. But then he started working at the company 11 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 2: and he realized that the work culture is not what 12 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 2: he expected. 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: Part MN is an independent journalist who recently wrote a 14 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: piece for the publication Rest of World and the title 15 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: of that article is death of an Indian tech Worker. 16 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: It's about Nicol Simwanci, a twenty four year old machine 17 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: learning engineer in Bangalore, a city that some people were 18 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,639 Speaker 1: nicknamed India's Silicon Valley. 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 2: His family members told me that he had started working 20 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 2: fifteen hours a day. His manager was kind of abrasive, 21 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 2: which was not something he was used to. He was 22 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: a very soft spoken, polite sort of a guy. When 23 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 2: he had come home for a couple of weeks he 24 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 2: had met his close friend. They caught up and he 25 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 2: basically told him that he's feeling a little lonely in 26 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: Bangalore and he was considering a move back. But his 27 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 2: family and the friend I spoke to said that it 28 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 2: was not easy for him to come back and just 29 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: abandon the job that had brought so much pride to 30 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 2: his parents. Right, it would have spread a bit of 31 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: negativity around him in the village, and he would have 32 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: thought that I've made my parents proud. I can't just 33 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 2: leave that and come back. And one evening he sent 34 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: a message to his roommate which tell my family it 35 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: was an accident. A few hours later, his body was 36 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: found in a lake in Bangalore. 37 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: Tell my family that it was an accident. Yeah, Nicol 38 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: was someone that people looked up to. This is a 39 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: young man from a tiny village who got out and 40 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: got himself a job at a respected, big company. What 41 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: happened to him there is a really long story and 42 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: a really sad story, but it's not a unique story. 43 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: Cross reporting shows that there is an increasing trend of 44 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: people leaving poor upbringings only to go die in the 45 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: big city, and the connection is India's tech industry from 46 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. This is kill Switch. I'm Dexter Thomas. 47 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 3: I'm all right. 48 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: India has always had a suicide problem. In fact, that 49 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: suicide rate is more than the global rate. But some 50 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: of the suicides that have happened in India are largely 51 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: suicides of farmers. 52 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 1: India's farmers have been in international news for the past 53 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: few years. Back in twenty twenty, farmers and unions representing 54 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: over two hundred and fifty million people staged the largest 55 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: protest in recorded human history. You might have seen some 56 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: of the footage of this. Farmers driving tractors from northern 57 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: India down to Delhi demonstrating against proposed laws that they 58 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: said would make it impossible for them to make a living. 59 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: More than half of India's population relies on agriculture for 60 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: the livelihood, and things have gotten so bad economically that 61 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: people are getting desperate. Part has been reporting on this 62 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: topic for over a decade. 63 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: Farmers have been dying by suicide, especially since the nineteen nineties, 64 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: in huge numbers. I mean, between nineteen ninety five twenty fifteen, 65 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: more than three hundred thousand farmers have died by suicide 66 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 2: in India. The Indian government has stopped counting, like tide 67 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: data fudging of farmer suicides because the numbers started looking 68 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 2: really bad, but the trend has only worsened. 69 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: Stopped counting. 70 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're bearing bodies in other columns basically, so there 71 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: are certain states that will show no farm suicides, but 72 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: certainly other suicides quote unquote, other suicides would have shot 73 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: through the roof. But the farmers are not the only 74 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 2: profession that is struggling right now. It's also pilled over 75 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 2: into the white collar jobs. 76 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: Part reporting takes him to rural villages across India, talking 77 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: to people who live there about the pressures they're dealing 78 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: with that lead to this increase in suicides. But recently 79 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: he's been noticing another trend outside of the villages and 80 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: instead in the big cities, specifically in these tech hubs 81 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: Bangalore and Hyderobar. Or rather, he's been noticing the same 82 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,239 Speaker 1: trend just in a different demographic suicides among white collar 83 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: tech workers. 84 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: Over the past few years. As someone who follows news 85 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,559 Speaker 2: in India, you keep coming across stories of tech workers 86 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 2: few sides, and these are isolated suicides and then there 87 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: are maybe Twitter threads and Twitter hashtags that follow for 88 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: a couple of days, and then it goes quiet for 89 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 2: a few more days until there's another suicide. So we've 90 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 2: been seeing quite a few of them over the past 91 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,679 Speaker 2: few years. In fact, when we analyzed the newspaper reports, 92 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 2: we found there were two hundred and twenty seven techworkers 93 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 2: suicides in the last eight or nine years, and that's 94 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: a fairly big number. India doesn't maintain data for it 95 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 2: worker suicides specifically, but the last recorded number for white 96 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: collar workers was ten percent of the suicides that have 97 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: happened in India for years. 98 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: In the tech industry has been thought of as a 99 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: path out of the village, getting out of the farming village, 100 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: going to a big city, getting in the tech industry. 101 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: That's the dream for a lot of people, and for 102 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: a poor person, a tech job in Bangalore could lift 103 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: your entire family out of poverty. But Paths Reporting is 104 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: finding that instead these workers are essentially going to the 105 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: big cities and dying there. 106 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: Some of the stories that you come across in newspapers, 107 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 2: you see tech worker suicides in say it, hubs of 108 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 2: Bangalore or Pune or Hyderabad, but when you look at 109 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: some of the people who have died by suicides, they 110 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: are not from Bangalore or Hyderabad. They come from marginalized families, 111 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: farming families, you know, working class families, and they are 112 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 2: sort of looking to, you know, uplift themselves and their families, 113 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 2: bring their families out of financial trouble and basically breaking 114 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: their back over it. 115 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: For Nichols Sawacci, this was the game plan since he 116 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: was a young boy. His family did everything they could 117 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: to get Nico educated so that he could have opportunities 118 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: that they never had. 119 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: His parents had to sell a portion of their farmland 120 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,119 Speaker 2: and their house to get his son and his elder 121 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: sister educated. In fact, when he was nine years old 122 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: or ten years old, his father enrolled him in a 123 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: school which was forty minutes away from his village because 124 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 2: it was an English medium instruction village, and that's something 125 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: that they wanted him to study in and cultivate naturally 126 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: if he had to go out and do something that 127 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: they couldn't do. So his parents worked really hard, very 128 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: humble family. He worked really hard to get where he 129 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 2: had gotten. 130 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: When Nico landed a job at an Ai infrastructure company 131 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,239 Speaker 1: called Ola cruture. It was a really big deal. He'd 132 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: made it. What does it mean for a kid from 133 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: a rural village to go out and make it in 134 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: a place like Bangalore and. 135 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 3: It's a huge deal. 136 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: His first salary was ten times more than what his 137 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: parents earned from farming, so you can imagine what a 138 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: huge deal it was for his parents. And villages are 139 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: generally a tight knit community, so when someone from the 140 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: village does well, the entire village sort of. 141 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: Celebrates, and he does mean celebrating. People back home in 142 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: nichols village put up banners all over town to show 143 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: how proud of him they were. But less than a 144 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: year later, Nichol would take his own life. Not even 145 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: the police seem to have any real answers. But the 146 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: story of Nichol's death shows us a lot about India's 147 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: tech industry and about how people in other countries, including 148 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 1: the United States, are influencing that toxic work culture that's 149 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: after the break. What is the work culture like right 150 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: now in the tech industry in India? 151 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 3: It's quite toxic. 152 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: Having spoken to a bunch of it professionals, eighty three 153 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: percent of them say they've burnt out and one in 154 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 2: four like twenty five clock seventy hours a week, which 155 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: is a lot. And even then you have some titans 156 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 2: of the industry saying there should be atrs and ninety 157 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: hours work week. 158 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: This is a trend amongst tech companies in India. The 159 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: founder of one company says that he expects a seventy 160 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: hour work week. The chairman of another says he wants 161 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: ninety hour work weeks. The founder of the company that 162 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: Nickel worked for refers to the concept of work life 163 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,959 Speaker 1: balance as a Western import. 164 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 4: I don't agree with this work life balance concept. I 165 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 4: think that's an outcome of again a Western thought process, 166 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 4: of a post industrial, of of the industrial era. But 167 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 4: our interesting ari thoughts was never that. 168 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: That's bubbish Augerwald, the CEO of OLA, on a podcast 169 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: in the summer of twenty twenty four. On that same show, 170 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: he said, quote, I have a strong belief that one 171 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: generation will have to do penance so that we can 172 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: build the number one country in the world, the largest economy. 173 00:09:59,000 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: End quote. 174 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: I mean, one tech worker told me that he's worked 175 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: through the night at some point in his job, got 176 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 2: home at six thirty and still reported back at ten thirty. Jeez, 177 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 2: there was one tech worker who told me that these 178 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: long guards make sure that he has very little time 179 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 2: for his family, his health. He started seeing a psychologist 180 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: because he's no longer in the right ream of mind. 181 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: One tech worker told me that there's obviously regular unpaid 182 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 2: overtime that they. 183 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 3: Have to do. 184 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: And beyond the stress in psychological pressure, this culture is 185 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: also having physical effects on the workers. In Karnataka, that's 186 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: the state in India that's home to Bangalore. 187 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 2: Bangalore is known as the Silicon Valley of India and 188 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 2: in Karnataka, you have a lot of patients looking for 189 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: organ donations and organ transplants, and a lot of them 190 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 2: are tech workers. In the ita Ab of Hyderabad, there 191 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: was a survey and study which came out recently. It 192 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 2: said that about eighty four percent of tech workers struggled 193 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: with atty liver disease, which is associated with stress and 194 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: long eay of sedentary work. They're overworked, they're overwhelmed, and 195 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: they have very little time for themselves and their families. 196 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: For someone like Nikos Suwanci, the stresses of his new 197 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: job were on top of the fact that he was 198 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: already living in a place that was culturally and even 199 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: linguistically different from where he grew up. 200 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 2: In his village, he spoke Marati, which is his native 201 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: language his mother tongue, something I speak as well. In Bangalore, 202 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 2: nobody speaks Marati. He had to have been engaging with 203 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 2: people in English, something that he was fine with because 204 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 2: he had learned in an English medium school. But still 205 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: that change matters, and when you don't have anybody around you, 206 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: it becomes difficult to settle down in an unfamiliar territory 207 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: right and at a time like that, when you have 208 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 2: a workplace that kind of toxic and abrasive, it makes 209 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 2: it even more difficult. 210 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: But according to Part's conversation with family and friends, Nico 211 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: never let it show he knew people back home were 212 00:11:58,880 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: depending on him. 213 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: I think one of the biggest things is the responsibility 214 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 2: right because parents, even though it even the parents or 215 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: families may not say that to their kids that we 216 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: are looking at you for financial security, the kids are 217 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 2: mature enough to understand that their parents are not earning 218 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: a lot of money. The kids are mature enough to 219 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: understand that the parents have sacrificed a lot to make 220 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: sure that they get educated. And so there's a lot 221 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: of pressure to succeed, and it is not easy. In 222 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 2: a country like India, which is inherently a labor surplus economy. 223 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: There are far too many people and far too few jobs, 224 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 2: and so when you land a job, it becomes very 225 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 2: difficult to walk away from it because you don't know 226 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 2: what the future holds. Right and someone like Nikol, who 227 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: came from the family that you did, who came from 228 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 2: the village of North mara Astra and did not have 229 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: financial security, we would have felt that pressure ten times 230 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: more than like someone like I would have felt, who 231 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 2: was born and praised in Mumbai. And I don't have 232 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 2: the kind of financial responsibilities that Nikl has, so I 233 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 2: can maybe take a lot more chances, and Nikkeil couldn't 234 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 2: afford to take any chances. 235 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: Part has come across a lot of stories like this, 236 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: highly educated college graduates who get stuck in a toxic 237 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: work environment but feel like they can't leave because they 238 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: have to provide for their family back home, or increasingly, 239 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: people who can't find work at all because there are 240 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: too many people competing for too few jobs. 241 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: I read a recent report in Economic Times which said 242 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 2: that in this current financial year, the top five it 243 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 2: companies in India have added a net seventeen employees one 244 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: to seven employees, whereas last year it was seventeen thousand. 245 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 3: So there's a hiring freeze as well. 246 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, can you say that number again? You said 247 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: one seven? 248 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 2: Yes, top art firms added just seventeen stuff in nine 249 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: months and hiring has nearly. 250 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: Frozen seven seventeen across all those companies. 251 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 2: This is an Economic Times report I have in front 252 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: of me right now. And I met a family of 253 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: a twenty year audio old tech graduate who was looking 254 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 2: for a job, who had been looking for a job 255 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 2: for months. He had made his CV again. Came from 256 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: a small town. His father had passed away. His mother 257 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: and his grandmother had taught him up by running an 258 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: iron shop. They would press people's clothes and work as 259 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 2: domestic help, and that's how they raised this boy. He 260 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 2: would have also felt the responsibility to bring his mother 261 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: and mother some sort of financial stability. He was one 262 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: of the brighter students, but he couldn't get a job 263 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: for months. He ran from one place to another, asked 264 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 2: a lot of people about it. Eventually he also died 265 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: by suicide. And I met his mother. I met his 266 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: elder brother, and his elder brother told me that I'm 267 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 2: not as intelligent as in and we all thought that 268 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: he would go places, and now we may same all 269 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: the time, because he ended his life abruptly out of 270 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: depression and just feeling worthless because he was worth so 271 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: much and he wasn't getting anything. And his mother made 272 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 2: a very heartbreaking point when I spoke to her, she 273 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: said that I regret making sure that my son got 274 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: educated because if he had not studied, he wouldn't have 275 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:22,239 Speaker 2: had those ambitions. 276 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 3: Wow. 277 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: And because he couldn't complete those ambitions, he ended up 278 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: dying by suicide. There are so many people out there 279 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: who are not educated. They work as laborers. They make 280 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: ten thousand rupeza a month, five thousand rupie a month, wow, 281 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: and they don't have the ambition of working in a 282 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: big office. And he had the ambition because he knew 283 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: he was worth a lot more. And because he couldn't 284 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: he fell short of that ambition. He went into depression 285 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: and ended up killing himself. And it was one of 286 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: the most heartbreaking conversations I've had as a reporter. 287 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: This wasn't always the case. From the nineties to the 288 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: early two thousands, tech employees were in demand in big 289 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: cities like Bangalore and Hyderobar and the jobs would good jobs, 290 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: fair hours, good salaries, and a chance to build a 291 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: good life for yourself. 292 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: They could work eight hours, help their families, give them time, 293 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 2: build a house, pace of family, and still make a 294 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 2: decent living. That is no longer possible. Twenty ten eleven onwards, 295 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: it started getting increasingly competitive. There's this one ceo I 296 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: spoke to. He said that in the early two thousands, 297 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: the tech industry was growing at a scorching pace. As 298 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: the industry got more and more competitive, companies started making 299 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: more and more competitive demands. And then that sort of 300 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 2: changed the nature of the industry. And over the past 301 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: I think five years, especially six years, especially since the pandemic, 302 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: that work culture has become even more toxic. Work from 303 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: home lurned, the boundaries between personal space and office hours, 304 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: and workers became answerable sort of. 305 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: The main driver of the Indian tech economy is outsourced work. 306 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: At one point this meant call centers. Now it's morphed 307 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: into housing specialists for all kinds of technology needs. This 308 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: kind of work already requires Indian companies to provide services 309 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: around the clock in order to service the rest of 310 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: the world, and the companies pass those twenty four hour 311 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: obligations onto their employees. So this culture is encouraged by 312 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: the CEOs of some of these companies, But the pressure 313 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: that turns the gears of that culture machine isn't just 314 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: coming from the few executives. It's coming from outside. To 315 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: be more specific, it's also coming from the United States. 316 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people say from the States 317 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: when they think of the tech industry in India. I 318 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: think they think of a couple of things. The first 319 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: would be outsourcing, or they would think of call centers. 320 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: I think another thing that people might think of is 321 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: people who immigrate from India and work in Silicon Valley. 322 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: But your reporting is showing that that's also changing and 323 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: putting a lot of pressure on workers also, Right, So the. 324 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 3: Are three things you just alluded to. 325 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 2: One is the call centers, which are getting more and 326 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: more automated because of AA, so a lot of those 327 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: jobs have gone away. Secondly, outsourcing, which is the backbone 328 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 2: of India's tech industry. I think around sixty two percent 329 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 2: of India's tech revenue is driven by US. Outsourcing remains 330 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 2: India's backbone and that is why experts have told me 331 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 2: that IT remains more vulnerable to AI disruption. Traditional product 332 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 2: development companies won't be as affected as much as traditional 333 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 2: outsourcing companies. So a lot of these jobs are endangered, 334 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: and many of the workers also see it coming. One 335 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: IT worker basically told me that a lot of the 336 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 2: mid level managers are being laid off and when that happens, 337 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 2: they are not being replaced. Their work invariably falls on 338 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 2: employees below there. And the last thing you spoke about 339 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: is the immigrant population in the US, and that is 340 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: the Donnertrump hiking fees recently and the entire campaign at 341 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: an make America Great Again and anti magadation sort of campaign, as. 342 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 5: A president signing a proclamation that now requires this one 343 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 5: hundred thousand dollars annual fee for this H one B 344 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 5: visa for highly skilled foreign workers. Now, this could be 345 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 5: a huge blow to big tech firms that rely heavily 346 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 5: on highly skilled forward workers to fill key roles. 347 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: Historically, the H one B visa program had been a 348 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: path for Indian tech workers to move to the US, 349 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: and it was a win win. Immigrant workers get a 350 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: high paying American job and their employers the US tech 351 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: companies really liked having this extra source of foreign talent. 352 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: But now the Trump administration has astronomically raised the fees 353 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: for those visas and American companies can't afford to hire 354 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: them anymore. So a lot of Indian workers who otherwise 355 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: might have gone to the US are staying in India 356 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: and they're competing for the very few jobs that are 357 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 1: available at home. They're getting thrown back into that pressure 358 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: cooker where the work culture is terrible, the hours are extreme, 359 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: and the jobs that are available are on the AI 360 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: shopping plot. Basically, the tech workforce in India is being 361 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: squeezed from every side. 362 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 2: And if somebody pushes back, they are basically told to 363 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: fit the job and they can be easily replaced by 364 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: somebody else because there are hundreds of people waiting in 365 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: the wings. So that's the situation of tech workers in India. 366 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 2: They're sort of trapped. They have nowhere else to go. 367 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: And when the alls are stacked so much against you, 368 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: you can't really push for better conditions. You can't really 369 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 2: push back for paid over time and so on and 370 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 2: so forth, because the companies clearly hold all the chips. 371 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: After the break India's union leaders get into the streets 372 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: to fight back against the tech industry. But will it work. 373 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: What are employees even able to do in these situations? 374 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: Because it's sounds like, even just from reading your articles, 375 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: so many people are anonymous. Is it that people are 376 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: afraid to speak up? 377 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely, most of the employees are afraid to speak up. 378 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 3: There. They are scared for their jobs. 379 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: Because if they are cooted in my piece and their 380 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 2: employee reads it, they're done. Not only will they lose 381 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: their job from that employer, they will not get a 382 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 2: job anywhere in the industry. Other employers will also find 383 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 2: excuses to not employ those people. So they are petrified. 384 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 2: They have very few legal protections. The cases basically drag 385 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 2: on for years, so by the time you get any 386 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: kind of justice, decades have passed, and so there's very 387 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: little one can do. So a lot of people flatly 388 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: refuse to speak to me, and the ones who agreed, 389 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 2: I had to go through some people who already knew me, 390 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 2: and they could sort of assure them that this person 391 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 2: is a llegitimate, credible journalist who won't disclose your identity, 392 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 2: and that's when they agree to speak to me. Even 393 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,479 Speaker 2: the cases of suicides. A lot of family members were 394 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 2: reluctant to speak to me because many union leaders told 395 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: me that they're afraid. Many of them basically sign non 396 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 2: disclosure agreements with the companies. Many of them get paid 397 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: by the companies through a life insurance policy. 398 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: According to union leaders, these companies will use corporate insurance 399 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: policies to compensate the families of the suicide victims. The 400 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,239 Speaker 1: compensation comes with a catch. 401 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: And then they're also worried about defamation, that the company 402 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 2: might drag them to court, and they don't want to 403 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 2: get into that, and they don't have the power to 404 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: sort of take on a company. So many of the 405 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: families who had lost their loved ones to suicide dude 406 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: toxic culture. They didn't come forward and speak to me. 407 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: Even Nichol's family, his parents didn't speak to me about 408 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: the companies. They said, we don't want to talk about 409 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 2: the company. We want to we only speak to you 410 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 2: on condition that we speak about my son and I'd 411 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 2: like to remember him. His parents basically said, we don't 412 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 2: want to talk about the company, and that basically tells 413 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 2: you how and why these huge multinational companies have been 414 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: able to get away with this kind of toxic work culture. 415 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: In response to Nichol's death, Oha, the company released the 416 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: statement saying that they were quote deeply saddened with each death. 417 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: Companies put out similar statements, but not all workers are 418 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: keeping quiet about this. Last year, about seven hundred tech 419 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: workers staged protests in the streets of Bangalore. One of 420 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: their demands was that labor laws actually be enforced. This 421 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: is bold and we got to acknowledge that. But part 422 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: says that we have to keep that protest in perspective. 423 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 2: They do protests, they have taken the streets, but the 424 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: IT industry employs around five million people in India and 425 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: some thirty thousand are part of the unions. So they 426 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 2: are doing what they can in their own way in 427 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: their own city. 428 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: Five million versus thirty thousand. 429 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, thirty thousand people who are part 430 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 2: of these unions, it's not a large number. And then 431 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: they cannot pressurize the employers to make changes in the 432 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 2: way they work. 433 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's not even one percent. 434 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the union leaders that I spoke to, they 435 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 2: are doing their best to mobilize, They're doing their best 436 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 2: to pressurize state governments into bringing some change, But because 437 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 2: the numbers are lacking, they're not able to put the 438 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 2: kind of pressure. And obviously the labor laws in India 439 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 2: are easily bypassed. The labor codes in India are not 440 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 2: very pro worker, so they are sort of squeezed from 441 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 2: every direction. 442 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: So how do these companies respond. 443 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 2: The company that I've reported on refused to comment. There 444 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 2: was another case that I have reference to. They didn't 445 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: want to comment on that either. I reached out to NASCOM, 446 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: which is India's top IT body, which represents the IT 447 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 2: company's interests. They gave the statement about AI and how 448 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 2: they see reshaping jobs and so on and so forth, 449 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: but they didn't speak about the allegations of toxic work culture. 450 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 2: They refuse to speak about the suicides. Whenever a suicide happens, 451 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 2: they released a sort of the usual statement about being 452 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: saddened by the loss and that we are cooperating with 453 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: the authorities and we're helping the family, and we're doing 454 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 2: our best to create a healthy workplace for our employees 455 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. So they release that 456 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: customary statement and. 457 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 3: That's about it. 458 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,719 Speaker 2: When I spoke to some of the union leaders, they 459 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: made a good point. They said that even the police 460 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 2: and the lawyer out of machinery is unable or unwilling 461 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 2: to bring these companies to book because the state is 462 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: then losing revenue if the company moves to another state. 463 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 2: So a lot of the state government authorities they are 464 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 2: also unwilling to take on the large companies whenever a 465 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 2: suicide happens. 466 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 3: So it is very easy. 467 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 2: For the authorities to say that it could have been personal. 468 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: But the fact of them is, if work culture is 469 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 2: contributing to that stress, then it deserves to be investigated. 470 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 2: Nobody is saying that it was the only cause for 471 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 2: suit sides. Whenever take dies by suicide. Surely there could 472 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: be personal reasons, but if a toxic work culture, if 473 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 2: that work stress is contributing, is a contributing factor, then 474 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: it deserves to be investigated. 475 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: When I first read parts article, in addition to being 476 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 1: shocked at all the horrible details, I was also kind 477 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: of ashamed that I didn't know about this thing that 478 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: probably everyone in India is talking about. Right well, I 479 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: actually know. Part says that a lot of people in 480 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: India don't necessarily realize how widespread this is. It's not 481 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: that people don't care, or that the public isn't paying attention. 482 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: It's that there are important details that the news isn't 483 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: usually telling them. 484 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 2: There was one thing that I found while reporting this 485 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 2: story was that when I looked at the that's by 486 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 2: suicide the it workers, most of the news reports did 487 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 2: not mention the company they worked in. And that's so telling. 488 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 2: It's one of the basic things that you have to 489 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 2: do as a reporter, as a newspaper. You when you 490 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 2: mentioned someone has died by suicide in one company in 491 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 2: one city, why can't you mention the. 492 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 3: Name of that company? 493 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: And many of those right, and the name of that 494 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 2: company because it would invite bad press, because it would 495 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,959 Speaker 2: invite bad reputation. The name of that company is invisibilized 496 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 2: in many of these news reports. And then when I 497 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 2: had to dig further, I had to call the union 498 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: leaders and then I had to ask them, you know, 499 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 2: this is a report I found, but I don't know 500 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 2: what company they were working in. Then they sort of, 501 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: you know, call them, call their contacts, and they found 502 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 2: out which company the suicide happened in. 503 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: I mean, this is something you want to know as 504 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 1: a potential worker. If I'm applying to someone. I'm finding 505 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: out that this is happening to the workers. There's probably 506 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: something wrong at that company. I want to know. 507 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 3: That exactly, exactly. 508 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 2: Many of these news reports do not mention the company, 509 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 2: and that just. 510 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 3: Tells you how even the media is. 511 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: Not entirely pro worker, and how they are sort of 512 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 2: trying to protect the employers. And it's actually not a 513 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: surprise when you look at the way the lawyer and 514 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: auder machinery operates, when you look at the way the 515 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 2: media operates, it is not a surprise that the tech 516 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 2: companies are able to get away with this toxic work culture. 517 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: This phrase or the idea that one generation has to 518 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: pay a penance for India to become the number one 519 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: country in the world or for India to move forward. 520 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: This is something we've seen before, right, the kind of 521 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: work culture that people talk about in Korea, the kind 522 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: of work culture that people talk about in Japan. Sometimes 523 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: the kind of work culture that people talk about it 524 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: in China. Sometimes, you know, I think a lot of 525 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: times we make this mistake of thinking, oh, there must 526 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: be something ingrained in the cultural values. It's rapid economic development, 527 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: which is the underlying pattern here. It's very strange to 528 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: see the idea of penance being introduced and that hey, 529 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: we're just going to have to pay the price for 530 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: a generation. Okay, who is we? 531 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 3: Yeah? 532 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: Exactly, when you talk about rapid economic development. 533 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 3: You have to ask whose development right? Right? 534 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 2: Because the person calling for penance has a network of 535 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: over a billion dollars and the people who are supposed 536 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 2: to be paying that penance are dying by susid they're 537 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 2: struggling to make the rent. And there's something that I've 538 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 2: always wondered when we talk about this rising GDP of 539 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 2: India and India becoming the third largest or fourth largest 540 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 2: economy and we're adding more and more billionaires, but at 541 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 2: the same time, sixty three million people enter poverty because 542 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 2: they don't have access to in public healthcare. There was 543 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 2: a study recently that was quite quite revealing even the 544 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,719 Speaker 2: top five percent of income earners in Mumbai would need 545 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 2: us to agering one hundred and nine years to afford 546 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,959 Speaker 2: a home. Even globally, house price to income ratio of 547 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: three x to six x is considered healthy, and anything 548 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 2: about ten x is typically flagged as sort of it's 549 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: a warning sign because it's unaffordable and by that sort 550 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 2: of metric. Indian metros are horrible. The HPI ratio in 551 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 2: Mumbai is thirty four x, in Bangalore is twenty two x. 552 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: And education has gotten more and more expensive. Healthcare has 553 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 2: gotten more and more expensive. So even if from the 554 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 2: outside it looks like you're making a decent sort of income, 555 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: you're still living paycheck to paycheck. You can say that, 556 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 2: of course, India has become the fourth largest economy, but 557 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 2: what about the per capita income? What is happening? If 558 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 2: the top one percent owns forty percent of the country's wealth, 559 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 2: then of course a GDP might look like it is. 560 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 2: India is the fourth largest economy in the world. But 561 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 2: the fact of the matter is people are struggling to 562 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: pay their rent and ninety percent of people are making 563 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 2: less than three hundred dollars a month. So when you 564 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 2: talk about rapid economic develop it is generally the development 565 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 2: of the developed and not the development of the working 566 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 2: class and the poor and the marginalized. 567 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: What you're describing here is I think something that a 568 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: lot of listeners will know something about. Cost rising isn't 569 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: anything that's foreign, But you're describing a much more extreme 570 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: version of this, and you're describing it in a region 571 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: where a lot of people depend on Yeah, because of 572 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: exactly what you're talking about. You're talking about outsourcing, You're 573 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: talking about how much of the world actually does depend 574 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: on labor in the tech sector that is happening in India, 575 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: and they may not realize how precarious that is. 576 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 2: I hope this story becomes a bit of a reality 577 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 2: check for the global tech industry, which India is an 578 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 2: integral part of. I want to make sure that the 579 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: tech industry, which is sort of you know, it's worth 580 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 2: two eighty billion dollars, it employs five million people, and 581 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 2: it's got these glittering numbers, there has to be some 582 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 2: reality check. There has to be some sense of, you know, 583 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: that facade has to. 584 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 3: Has to be broken. 585 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: What I got from reading parts reporting and from talking 586 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: to him is that maybe sometimes when I read about 587 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: explosive growth in some market overseas, so maybe stop and 588 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: ask questions about who's back That growth is built on 589 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: valuations and stock prices and market ratios can only tell 590 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: you so much under all those numbers. Or people like 591 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: Nicol and his family. 592 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 2: I met his family. They were completely shattered. His father 593 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 2: was in tears. His mother had stopped eating, she had 594 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 2: become frail. She had to go to the hospital a 595 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 2: couple of times. It was a very heartbreaking situation when 596 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 2: I interviewed them. When I met them, his father in 597 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 2: fact told me that there's a photograph of Nikkel in 598 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 2: their house and they've put up sort of a blanket 599 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 2: on top of that photograph because when they see him, 600 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 2: they miss him, so they can't even bear to see 601 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 2: his face on that photograph without really breaking down. 602 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to another episode of 603 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: kill Switch. If you want to talk to us, you 604 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: can email us at kill Switch at Kaleidoscope dot NYC, 605 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: or on Instagram. We're at kill switch pod. And if 606 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: you find this stuff interesting or valuable, you know, maybe 607 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcast. 608 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: It helps other people find the show, which helps us 609 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: keep doing our thing. And once you've done that, did 610 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: you know that kill Switch is on YouTube and link 611 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: for that and everything else you need to know is 612 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: in the show notes. Kill Switch is hosted by me 613 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: Dexter Thomas. It's produced by Sheena Ozaki, Darluck Potts, and 614 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: Julian Nutter. Our theme song is by Me and Kyle 615 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: Murdoch and Kyle also mixed the show. From Kaleidoscope, Our 616 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: executive producers or oswall Lashin, mangesh Hati Kadur and Kate Osborne. 617 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: From iHeart Art executive producers are Katrina Norvil and Nikki E. 618 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: Tour catch on the Next One.