1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,104 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:17,864 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. 4 00:00:17,904 --> 00:00:22,424 Speaker 2: In our show notes, I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. 5 00:00:22,904 --> 00:00:25,703 Speaker 3: I was a CIA officer stationed around the world in 6 00:00:25,784 --> 00:00:28,424 Speaker 3: high threat posts in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 7 00:00:28,464 --> 00:00:31,544 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 8 00:00:31,624 --> 00:00:35,704 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 9 00:00:35,744 --> 00:00:36,704 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 10 00:00:36,944 --> 00:00:40,624 Speaker 3: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 11 00:00:40,664 --> 00:00:42,424 Speaker 3: theories large and small. 12 00:00:42,703 --> 00:00:45,144 Speaker 2: Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 13 00:00:45,664 --> 00:00:52,624 Speaker 3: This is Mission Implausible. So today's guest is Susan Miller. 14 00:00:52,664 --> 00:00:55,344 Speaker 3: She's a colleague and a friend of ours who worked 15 00:00:55,344 --> 00:00:58,743 Speaker 3: almost four decades in the CIA. Was our boss and 16 00:00:58,824 --> 00:01:01,384 Speaker 3: the CIA at one time or another. Some of her 17 00:01:01,424 --> 00:01:04,504 Speaker 3: senior jobs were the head of Counterintelligence. She worked on 18 00:01:04,584 --> 00:01:07,504 Speaker 3: issue com in China, she worked in Russia, Israel, in 19 00:01:07,544 --> 00:01:10,144 Speaker 3: a lot of senior positions East and we're glad to 20 00:01:10,184 --> 00:01:11,744 Speaker 3: have her with us. Thanks for being with us. 21 00:01:12,024 --> 00:01:13,223 Speaker 4: It's good to be with you, guys. 22 00:01:13,584 --> 00:01:15,824 Speaker 3: I wanted to start out, Yeah, I know, we'll get 23 00:01:15,863 --> 00:01:16,744 Speaker 3: into that part of it. 24 00:01:16,863 --> 00:01:18,544 Speaker 2: I want the first question this time? 25 00:01:18,744 --> 00:01:21,143 Speaker 3: Who was more of a make me introducer if you 26 00:01:21,184 --> 00:01:21,744 Speaker 3: get the first thing. 27 00:01:22,503 --> 00:01:25,104 Speaker 2: Who was more of a problem to be a boss 28 00:01:25,143 --> 00:01:27,824 Speaker 2: of John or me? Who was the bigger problem child 29 00:01:27,824 --> 00:01:28,504 Speaker 2: in the agency? 30 00:01:28,904 --> 00:01:34,063 Speaker 4: Honestly it was you were both horrible. So that's all 31 00:01:34,104 --> 00:01:34,904 Speaker 4: I can say. 32 00:01:35,063 --> 00:01:37,344 Speaker 2: Oh, all right, all right, John, not over to your question. 33 00:01:37,464 --> 00:01:40,024 Speaker 2: I do be very you, but clearly. 34 00:01:39,904 --> 00:01:42,264 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know I was ready for that. So Susan 35 00:01:42,264 --> 00:01:43,544 Speaker 3: one of the you know, we don't want to dwell 36 00:01:43,544 --> 00:01:45,943 Speaker 3: on this too much, but you are embroiled in a 37 00:01:45,944 --> 00:01:49,264 Speaker 3: conspiracy right now. So Toulci Gebbert just spoke at the 38 00:01:49,264 --> 00:01:52,704 Speaker 3: White House and said that former CIA director John Brennan 39 00:01:52,744 --> 00:01:57,344 Speaker 3: former President Barack Obama conspired to damage candidate Trump in 40 00:01:57,384 --> 00:02:01,064 Speaker 3: twenty sixteen by putting out false information that Russia was 41 00:02:01,104 --> 00:02:07,584 Speaker 3: assisting his campaign in twenty seventeen. Twenty yeah, sixteen, seventeen, Yeah, election. 42 00:02:07,384 --> 00:02:09,064 Speaker 2: It was in sixteen, but the ICE didn't co out 43 00:02:09,144 --> 00:02:11,664 Speaker 2: until seven. So it's unless you have a time sheet, 44 00:02:11,704 --> 00:02:14,983 Speaker 2: I don't know how that this assessment could. I'm sorry. 45 00:02:14,704 --> 00:02:17,264 Speaker 4: They're never really good on facts. 46 00:02:17,024 --> 00:02:17,864 Speaker 2: So it's all right. 47 00:02:17,984 --> 00:02:22,864 Speaker 3: Yeah, So here's my question for those unfamiliar with CIA culture. 48 00:02:23,304 --> 00:02:25,864 Speaker 3: What would it actually happen if the director came to 49 00:02:25,904 --> 00:02:28,104 Speaker 3: a group writing an assessment and said, I want you 50 00:02:28,184 --> 00:02:30,864 Speaker 3: to publish a false story for political reasons. What how 51 00:02:30,904 --> 00:02:32,744 Speaker 3: would that look if that actually happened. 52 00:02:32,984 --> 00:02:35,264 Speaker 4: How it would look if he had asked us to 53 00:02:35,304 --> 00:02:38,144 Speaker 4: do that? Yeah, we would. I would have quit. I 54 00:02:38,184 --> 00:02:41,504 Speaker 4: would have gone to the IG Inspector General. There's no 55 00:02:41,584 --> 00:02:44,784 Speaker 4: way any of us would have done it. And it 56 00:02:44,824 --> 00:02:48,384 Speaker 4: would have been a much more salacious story, that's for sure, 57 00:02:48,664 --> 00:02:51,424 Speaker 4: but it was a pretty boring None of us would 58 00:02:51,424 --> 00:02:54,304 Speaker 4: have done it. There's just no way the idea that 59 00:02:54,344 --> 00:02:57,864 Speaker 4: we would conspire to write something like this. If I 60 00:02:57,904 --> 00:03:00,184 Speaker 4: was going to conspire to write something, it would be 61 00:03:00,264 --> 00:03:07,383 Speaker 4: really righteous. And this particular report ended with basically, yes, 62 00:03:07,464 --> 00:03:10,464 Speaker 4: one hundred percent, the Russians tried to influence the election 63 00:03:10,744 --> 00:03:14,264 Speaker 4: in Trump's favor, and one hundred percent, we can't tell 64 00:03:14,304 --> 00:03:17,984 Speaker 4: you if it worked unless we pulled every voter. And therefore, 65 00:03:18,744 --> 00:03:22,184 Speaker 4: in our opinion, Trump is our president and that was it. 66 00:03:22,584 --> 00:03:26,504 Speaker 4: And for that he decided to do the I don't 67 00:03:26,544 --> 00:03:30,584 Speaker 4: know how long later it was, but bar Durham put 68 00:03:30,664 --> 00:03:33,184 Speaker 4: me and a couple of members of my team on 69 00:03:33,264 --> 00:03:37,904 Speaker 4: trial for writing a paper that ended with and Trump 70 00:03:38,024 --> 00:03:40,984 Speaker 4: is basically the rightful president or you know is president. 71 00:03:41,424 --> 00:03:45,344 Speaker 4: And I remember when they came when my lawyer came 72 00:03:45,384 --> 00:03:47,864 Speaker 4: to me and told me this, and it was I 73 00:03:47,944 --> 00:03:49,424 Speaker 4: left my head out loud and he goes, no, I'm 74 00:03:49,464 --> 00:03:54,384 Speaker 4: actually serious, I'm crap. And it's a criminal complaint. I said, yeah, 75 00:03:54,704 --> 00:03:57,864 Speaker 4: he said, what's the crime? Has something to do with insurrection? 76 00:03:58,104 --> 00:04:00,704 Speaker 4: I'm not positive and then just went on from there. 77 00:04:00,864 --> 00:04:03,424 Speaker 2: But there was another element to this, and I think 78 00:04:03,824 --> 00:04:06,584 Speaker 2: if there is a conspiracy on the right now, this 79 00:04:06,704 --> 00:04:09,584 Speaker 2: is part of it. The assessment also said, what we 80 00:04:09,664 --> 00:04:13,064 Speaker 2: have no evidence. There's no proof that the Russians were 81 00:04:13,144 --> 00:04:18,304 Speaker 2: able to impact on our election infrastructure. They didn't change votes. 82 00:04:18,303 --> 00:04:21,024 Speaker 2: If you voted for A, they didn't turn it to B. 83 00:04:21,584 --> 00:04:25,864 Speaker 2: And this is part of as I understand Gabbert's claim, 84 00:04:26,584 --> 00:04:30,743 Speaker 2: is that she's conflating the fact that we didn't find 85 00:04:30,823 --> 00:04:33,863 Speaker 2: any election interference. They weren't in the guts of the 86 00:04:33,904 --> 00:04:34,984 Speaker 2: election machines. 87 00:04:35,464 --> 00:04:36,104 Speaker 4: No, they weren't. 88 00:04:36,303 --> 00:04:39,144 Speaker 2: That means that they didn't have any influence, which is 89 00:04:39,183 --> 00:04:42,344 Speaker 2: not what we're saying, right, I mean logical else. 90 00:04:42,623 --> 00:04:48,383 Speaker 4: Yeah, here's what it was, is they were doing an 91 00:04:48,424 --> 00:04:54,144 Speaker 4: influenced campaign towards Trump, both in the US and around 92 00:04:54,144 --> 00:04:57,944 Speaker 4: the world. Did it include some social media Maybe. We 93 00:04:58,503 --> 00:05:01,664 Speaker 4: didn't actually get down into that because as CIA were 94 00:05:01,664 --> 00:05:04,664 Speaker 4: not allowed to go into things that are at that 95 00:05:04,784 --> 00:05:09,784 Speaker 4: are inside America. But what we understood from the sources. 96 00:05:09,984 --> 00:05:16,703 Speaker 4: The source was that it was ordered by the Russian 97 00:05:16,784 --> 00:05:23,503 Speaker 4: leadership and they had chosen Trump because they felt he 98 00:05:23,743 --> 00:05:29,944 Speaker 4: was more favorable than the Democratic the Democrat that was 99 00:05:29,984 --> 00:05:32,303 Speaker 4: going to be running, any Democrat that would run against him, 100 00:05:32,383 --> 00:05:35,703 Speaker 4: and other Republicans and things like that. And so that's 101 00:05:35,743 --> 00:05:38,743 Speaker 4: what we found. And everybody wanted us to, wanted us 102 00:05:38,784 --> 00:05:41,744 Speaker 4: to come to a firm conclusion, and we did too. Honestly, 103 00:05:41,823 --> 00:05:45,583 Speaker 4: starting this out, we wanted a firm conclusion, Yes he 104 00:05:45,664 --> 00:05:49,303 Speaker 4: should not be president, or no, he should be president, 105 00:05:49,503 --> 00:05:51,584 Speaker 4: one way or the other. We didn't really care which 106 00:05:51,584 --> 00:05:55,664 Speaker 4: way it ended. But we couldn't find that, and so 107 00:05:56,784 --> 00:06:00,184 Speaker 4: that's what we ended up with. And it was briefed 108 00:06:00,264 --> 00:06:06,383 Speaker 4: to Trump by our director and he was quite happy 109 00:06:06,464 --> 00:06:10,183 Speaker 4: and he basically said, good briefing, and it was brief 110 00:06:10,224 --> 00:06:13,143 Speaker 4: to him. And then it was not too long later 111 00:06:13,544 --> 00:06:17,344 Speaker 4: that I got called into the OGC's office and told 112 00:06:18,063 --> 00:06:21,943 Speaker 4: that Trump was with a couple other team members, by 113 00:06:21,984 --> 00:06:26,224 Speaker 4: the way, that we were all being charged by the 114 00:06:26,264 --> 00:06:30,063 Speaker 4: Attorney General for writing the paper. And we all laughed 115 00:06:30,063 --> 00:06:33,784 Speaker 4: our heads off at it and said, you know, you know, 116 00:06:33,823 --> 00:06:37,463 Speaker 4: to tell us really why And then they said, they said, no, 117 00:06:38,183 --> 00:06:43,784 Speaker 4: it is absolutely true. You are being charged is a 118 00:06:43,863 --> 00:06:47,464 Speaker 4: criminal process. And I said, so, who do I get 119 00:06:47,503 --> 00:06:49,664 Speaker 4: from my lawyer, like one of you guys from OGC, 120 00:06:49,784 --> 00:06:51,703 Speaker 4: which is what you would normally do in Cia. You 121 00:06:51,743 --> 00:06:53,984 Speaker 4: get your own lawyer. They said, no, you need to 122 00:06:53,984 --> 00:06:58,023 Speaker 4: get a private criminal lawyer who has a clearance, which 123 00:06:58,104 --> 00:07:01,743 Speaker 4: is why I got Ken Wainstein. I actually asked around 124 00:07:01,784 --> 00:07:06,664 Speaker 4: to all the lawyers, who's the maastiest nice guy in court? 125 00:07:06,823 --> 00:07:11,384 Speaker 4: Meaning lawyer? And I had three freedom independently say you 126 00:07:11,384 --> 00:07:15,504 Speaker 4: gotta get Ken Waynstein. So I did, and so did Cohen. 127 00:07:15,544 --> 00:07:17,624 Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, he also got Kenwayne Stein. 128 00:07:18,064 --> 00:07:20,904 Speaker 4: And then we sat in front of the tribunal for 129 00:07:21,024 --> 00:07:21,904 Speaker 4: hours and hours. 130 00:07:22,184 --> 00:07:23,824 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh good fun. 131 00:07:24,464 --> 00:07:25,624 Speaker 4: Fifteen hundred bucks an hour? 132 00:07:26,144 --> 00:07:30,184 Speaker 2: WHOA what was the crime? Though? Saying something? I mean, 133 00:07:30,224 --> 00:07:33,424 Speaker 2: this goes sort of the core of intelligence, right, We're 134 00:07:33,464 --> 00:07:35,824 Speaker 2: supposed to say the truth and then the politicians can 135 00:07:35,864 --> 00:07:38,744 Speaker 2: ignore it or take it on their advisement. This was 136 00:07:38,824 --> 00:07:41,544 Speaker 2: basically you said something that they didn't want to hear. 137 00:07:41,744 --> 00:07:45,544 Speaker 4: Right, That was it, And so Ken actually did try 138 00:07:45,584 --> 00:07:49,944 Speaker 4: to find out what is the crime. We don't understand 139 00:07:50,344 --> 00:07:53,184 Speaker 4: how a report that ends with and Trump is our 140 00:07:53,224 --> 00:08:00,104 Speaker 4: president is a crime. He never got a super good answer. 141 00:08:00,184 --> 00:08:05,703 Speaker 4: And it's something that during the actual bar Durham where 142 00:08:05,704 --> 00:08:09,824 Speaker 4: I sat in front of them to provide my testimony, 143 00:08:10,104 --> 00:08:13,704 Speaker 4: I asked that question too, and nobody gave me an answer. 144 00:08:14,064 --> 00:08:17,904 Speaker 4: I think one person mumbled, you're trying to bring down 145 00:08:17,904 --> 00:08:22,384 Speaker 4: a government or something like that. But again it wasn't clear. 146 00:08:22,664 --> 00:08:25,384 Speaker 2: But the assessment was classified. Right, It's not like you're 147 00:08:25,424 --> 00:08:27,504 Speaker 2: giving it to the New York Times, right, No. 148 00:08:27,504 --> 00:08:31,664 Speaker 4: I was not. It was classified. Yeah, referred to this 149 00:08:31,784 --> 00:08:33,024 Speaker 4: day that it was never lated. 150 00:08:33,504 --> 00:08:36,544 Speaker 3: Yeah, Susan, can you outline your role in creating the 151 00:08:36,584 --> 00:08:37,463 Speaker 3: Epstein files. 152 00:08:37,584 --> 00:08:38,463 Speaker 4: That's hilarious. 153 00:08:38,664 --> 00:08:42,664 Speaker 3: No, we're told no, the President said that it's the 154 00:08:42,664 --> 00:08:45,664 Speaker 3: CIA and the deep state and Obama people. So the 155 00:08:45,664 --> 00:08:49,184 Speaker 3: same people that did say that, So, the same people 156 00:08:49,264 --> 00:08:51,624 Speaker 3: who put out this false report that you worked on 157 00:08:52,264 --> 00:08:53,703 Speaker 3: created the Epstein files. 158 00:08:53,703 --> 00:08:57,583 Speaker 2: But there is a link to Epstein Gate. In so far, 159 00:08:57,744 --> 00:09:01,024 Speaker 2: I believe this is and this is a conspiracy, but 160 00:09:01,064 --> 00:09:03,424 Speaker 2: I think it's a true. One is that Tulca Gabber 161 00:09:03,864 --> 00:09:08,824 Speaker 2: cooked up this canard basically to have people look the 162 00:09:08,864 --> 00:09:12,544 Speaker 2: other eight right, shiny objects, something they could claim so 163 00:09:12,703 --> 00:09:16,304 Speaker 2: that they're not looking at Epstein. Right out of nowhere, 164 00:09:16,624 --> 00:09:19,864 Speaker 2: Epstein Gate's going on, and she suddenly is charging Barack 165 00:09:19,864 --> 00:09:21,144 Speaker 2: Obama with treeson right. 166 00:09:21,343 --> 00:09:24,983 Speaker 4: That's interesting, and you're being pulled into this as a distraction. 167 00:09:25,304 --> 00:09:28,384 Speaker 3: But at the same time, there's reports that she's under 168 00:09:28,424 --> 00:09:30,944 Speaker 3: the gun because she went to Japan and made this 169 00:09:31,103 --> 00:09:35,304 Speaker 3: crazy videotape about Hiroshima and the president was unhappy. And 170 00:09:35,343 --> 00:09:37,583 Speaker 3: so I think these people have to do these kind 171 00:09:37,624 --> 00:09:39,824 Speaker 3: of things to keep on Trump's favor. They're afraid they 172 00:09:39,824 --> 00:09:43,304 Speaker 3: could get I would agree. 173 00:09:43,544 --> 00:09:45,424 Speaker 2: So I want to talk about you know, you've got 174 00:09:45,463 --> 00:09:47,544 Speaker 2: John and I here to pharmacy. I want to talk 175 00:09:47,583 --> 00:09:52,144 Speaker 2: about one of our great CIA colleagues, John Kiriaku, who 176 00:09:52,264 --> 00:09:56,824 Speaker 2: was arrested, went to jail. He's a bad guy, so 177 00:09:56,944 --> 00:10:00,624 Speaker 2: I was surprised that he was on the interweb the 178 00:10:00,664 --> 00:10:06,264 Speaker 2: other day and he was claiming that Epstein was an asset. 179 00:10:06,504 --> 00:10:09,744 Speaker 2: But he wouldn't say to Israel, but he like to 180 00:10:09,904 --> 00:10:12,623 Speaker 2: them that it is clearly like he was. It was 181 00:10:12,664 --> 00:10:14,784 Speaker 2: an anti Semitic sort of he was like, he's with 182 00:10:14,824 --> 00:10:18,064 Speaker 2: the Jews, right, I mean, that was pretty clear Reconblican. 183 00:10:18,504 --> 00:10:22,343 Speaker 2: But then he says, and the reason, his reason for 184 00:10:22,384 --> 00:10:24,704 Speaker 2: this and one reason he's probably kicked out of seeing 185 00:10:24,744 --> 00:10:29,184 Speaker 2: one of the reasons is he was a an access agent, 186 00:10:29,343 --> 00:10:31,544 Speaker 2: that's what we call and that there's this harsh tone 187 00:10:31,583 --> 00:10:34,064 Speaker 2: that the person he's talking to, he says, and that 188 00:10:34,384 --> 00:10:38,864 Speaker 2: explains how he got the billions. Excess agents get like 189 00:10:38,984 --> 00:10:46,304 Speaker 2: private islands, they get him like as like, so he's 190 00:10:46,424 --> 00:10:50,024 Speaker 2: trying to tell whoever his audience is me and like 191 00:10:50,064 --> 00:10:53,224 Speaker 2: six other guys that if you're an access agent or 192 00:10:53,264 --> 00:10:56,344 Speaker 2: the Jews, you're going to get billions. 193 00:10:56,504 --> 00:10:59,143 Speaker 4: So how would you refond to this through that? 194 00:10:59,424 --> 00:11:02,024 Speaker 2: Like in the world of reality, like what an access 195 00:11:02,024 --> 00:11:05,184 Speaker 2: agent is and whether Jeffrey Epstein had any connections to 196 00:11:05,223 --> 00:11:09,104 Speaker 2: any intelligence organizations alif, I know, but it certainly doesn't 197 00:11:09,103 --> 00:11:10,103 Speaker 2: explain bill. 198 00:11:10,544 --> 00:11:14,824 Speaker 4: That that's crazy. But bottom line is that's ridiculous. Yea, 199 00:11:14,984 --> 00:11:16,504 Speaker 4: that is so ridiculous. 200 00:11:16,583 --> 00:11:18,944 Speaker 3: So for people who don't know what an access agent is. 201 00:11:18,944 --> 00:11:21,624 Speaker 3: In our old world, we're supposed to recruit sources to 202 00:11:21,664 --> 00:11:23,824 Speaker 3: give us secrets that the US government can't get any 203 00:11:23,904 --> 00:11:26,503 Speaker 3: other way. And one of the ways that you might 204 00:11:26,544 --> 00:11:28,904 Speaker 3: try to get towards someone we call a target who 205 00:11:28,984 --> 00:11:32,223 Speaker 3: might have those secrets is to recruit someone who knows them. 206 00:11:32,264 --> 00:11:34,904 Speaker 3: So if you have someone who works in those circles 207 00:11:34,904 --> 00:11:38,064 Speaker 3: that can provide you information background where that person might be, 208 00:11:38,264 --> 00:11:40,424 Speaker 3: we call that an access agent. And it's not the 209 00:11:40,463 --> 00:11:44,223 Speaker 3: person giving us necessarily intelligence, is the person helping us 210 00:11:44,744 --> 00:11:47,504 Speaker 3: find somebody that could give us intelligence. And by the 211 00:11:47,624 --> 00:11:50,703 Speaker 3: ends of our careers, even CIA was very hesitant to 212 00:11:50,944 --> 00:11:55,424 Speaker 3: approve those kind of relationships because we get promoted on 213 00:11:55,463 --> 00:11:58,544 Speaker 3: how many people we recruit, and it's much easier quote 214 00:11:58,583 --> 00:12:01,104 Speaker 3: unquote to recruit an access agent than an actual spot. 215 00:12:01,184 --> 00:12:02,984 Speaker 2: The North North Korean won't talk to us, so we 216 00:12:03,064 --> 00:12:06,944 Speaker 2: find some like Peruvian second secretary to throw a party 217 00:12:06,984 --> 00:12:09,743 Speaker 2: with canopy so that we can bump into him. They 218 00:12:09,744 --> 00:12:11,104 Speaker 2: don't get private islands. 219 00:12:11,144 --> 00:12:13,224 Speaker 3: And this cannopage, it's cannap paid. 220 00:12:13,744 --> 00:12:17,104 Speaker 2: There's chief. This is just a canop piece, right, a canopiece. 221 00:12:19,944 --> 00:12:20,103 Speaker 4: Chill. 222 00:12:20,784 --> 00:12:23,824 Speaker 3: So there is one more conspiracy that I just saw yesterday. 223 00:12:23,824 --> 00:12:26,743 Speaker 3: I was looking on Twitter. I saw this conspiracy and 224 00:12:26,864 --> 00:12:29,304 Speaker 3: it said, how is it possible that a girl from 225 00:12:29,424 --> 00:12:33,384 Speaker 3: Santa Rosa could be one of the most senior CIA officials. 226 00:12:33,504 --> 00:12:36,503 Speaker 3: This is clearly doesn't make sense that someone like that 227 00:12:36,624 --> 00:12:39,064 Speaker 3: could be in the senior position. I think we're being hoodwinked. 228 00:12:39,504 --> 00:12:42,184 Speaker 3: And so I don't know who that person thinks actually 229 00:12:42,264 --> 00:12:45,024 Speaker 3: does work at CIA. If you can't come from a 230 00:12:45,103 --> 00:12:47,824 Speaker 3: small town or whatever, are you are you joking. 231 00:12:47,664 --> 00:12:52,064 Speaker 4: Or no, no, oh my god, that you can't have 232 00:12:52,184 --> 00:12:57,424 Speaker 4: a CIA officer who came from California. 233 00:12:57,343 --> 00:12:59,544 Speaker 3: Or just from a small town, or a girl or whatever. 234 00:12:59,544 --> 00:13:00,384 Speaker 2: I don't know who they think. 235 00:13:00,504 --> 00:13:03,263 Speaker 3: They've created this myth of the deep state, of some 236 00:13:03,463 --> 00:13:05,864 Speaker 3: kind of elites or whatever, and they're like, I think 237 00:13:05,904 --> 00:13:08,544 Speaker 3: what they did is they found your article, I like 238 00:13:08,703 --> 00:13:12,224 Speaker 3: your school newspaper, and it talked about your growing up 239 00:13:12,264 --> 00:13:14,304 Speaker 3: like anybody else would. But then they said, oh, this 240 00:13:14,424 --> 00:13:17,064 Speaker 3: doesn't make any sense. A senior CIA person couldn't be 241 00:13:17,103 --> 00:13:18,263 Speaker 3: a normal person like that. 242 00:13:18,703 --> 00:13:21,463 Speaker 4: I would agree that there's a lot of abnormal people 243 00:13:21,544 --> 00:13:25,384 Speaker 4: that work at CIA, like two of you. The bottom 244 00:13:25,463 --> 00:13:28,904 Speaker 4: line is, you guys know inside the building, we're all normal. 245 00:13:29,624 --> 00:13:33,383 Speaker 4: We have kids, we have families, we have vacations, we 246 00:13:33,583 --> 00:13:38,504 Speaker 4: like to take were we turn off the espionage gene 247 00:13:38,944 --> 00:13:42,024 Speaker 4: or switch, I should say whenever we get in our 248 00:13:42,144 --> 00:13:45,743 Speaker 4: car and start heading home and you find a way 249 00:13:45,784 --> 00:13:49,143 Speaker 4: to do that. We have a lot of stress in 250 00:13:49,264 --> 00:13:51,744 Speaker 4: our jobs and a lot of things that we can 251 00:13:51,784 --> 00:13:55,544 Speaker 4: only talk to each other about because of our clearances 252 00:13:55,624 --> 00:13:59,463 Speaker 4: and things like that. But yeah, I feel like we are. 253 00:14:00,264 --> 00:14:04,544 Speaker 4: We are family of sorts. We've belonged to a club, 254 00:14:04,703 --> 00:14:09,024 Speaker 4: a dysfunctional club, yes, definitely, but we are And it's 255 00:14:09,064 --> 00:14:12,544 Speaker 4: really really is what makes what made my thirty nine 256 00:14:12,583 --> 00:14:15,864 Speaker 4: years so happy. There was very few idiots I had 257 00:14:15,904 --> 00:14:18,863 Speaker 4: to work. There's very few, you know, problem bosses, and 258 00:14:19,024 --> 00:14:22,264 Speaker 4: very few problems people that had to that were working 259 00:14:22,384 --> 00:14:26,904 Speaker 4: for me at different times. But it was just it's 260 00:14:27,104 --> 00:14:32,544 Speaker 4: really good, smart people who weirdly want to tell the truth. 261 00:14:32,664 --> 00:14:36,184 Speaker 4: People think CIA people lie all the time. We don't 262 00:14:36,224 --> 00:14:39,544 Speaker 4: lie to Americans. Well I guess we sort of did 263 00:14:39,584 --> 00:14:41,664 Speaker 4: when we say I actually work in the State Department. 264 00:14:42,104 --> 00:14:46,064 Speaker 4: But basically we're we are not what we were back 265 00:14:46,104 --> 00:14:48,104 Speaker 4: in the fifties and sixties, that's for sure. 266 00:14:48,744 --> 00:14:54,304 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's twenty twenty five and between the three of us, 267 00:14:54,344 --> 00:14:56,184 Speaker 2: so this is a scary thought. We've got almost one 268 00:14:56,264 --> 00:15:01,224 Speaker 2: hundred years of operational experience. Have you ever seen anything 269 00:15:01,584 --> 00:15:07,024 Speaker 2: like this now where we are afraid to speak truth 270 00:15:07,104 --> 00:15:09,824 Speaker 2: to power? We have seen this, but we I've seen 271 00:15:09,864 --> 00:15:12,264 Speaker 2: this when we've dealt with Russians or Cubans or Chinese, 272 00:15:12,304 --> 00:15:14,704 Speaker 2: where they look over their shoulders before they actually like 273 00:15:15,144 --> 00:15:17,584 Speaker 2: talk to you. We've never done that. That's what have 274 00:15:17,664 --> 00:15:19,904 Speaker 2: been one of our great powers is of people Americans 275 00:15:19,904 --> 00:15:20,504 Speaker 2: have ever done that? 276 00:15:20,824 --> 00:15:20,984 Speaker 4: Right? 277 00:15:21,184 --> 00:15:26,024 Speaker 2: I worry that this new normality we're just this Overton window. 278 00:15:26,144 --> 00:15:29,824 Speaker 2: We're just like accepting it. How different is this Trump 279 00:15:29,864 --> 00:15:32,544 Speaker 2: two point zero that we're going through now where people 280 00:15:32,584 --> 00:15:35,904 Speaker 2: are afraid, people are being fired, people like yourself, You 281 00:15:35,984 --> 00:15:38,143 Speaker 2: say something that you've believed that the facts base, and 282 00:15:38,224 --> 00:15:41,143 Speaker 2: then you're like up on criminal charges. How different is 283 00:15:41,224 --> 00:15:43,304 Speaker 2: this and how is this changing intelligence? 284 00:15:43,464 --> 00:15:45,824 Speaker 4: I think part of it the problem is that his 285 00:15:46,224 --> 00:15:52,064 Speaker 4: denigration of us and what we do is definitely resonating 286 00:15:52,384 --> 00:15:56,584 Speaker 4: with his base, and his base are talking to their 287 00:15:56,704 --> 00:16:00,664 Speaker 4: children and their neighbors and things like that, and a 288 00:16:00,744 --> 00:16:02,704 Speaker 4: fair number of people are going to say, ah, that's 289 00:16:02,824 --> 00:16:06,304 Speaker 4: just you being conspiratorial again and all that. But you're 290 00:16:06,904 --> 00:16:13,184 Speaker 4: raising a whole new generation, honestly, and more generations of 291 00:16:14,224 --> 00:16:19,024 Speaker 4: people who are going to think that the government lies 292 00:16:19,144 --> 00:16:23,824 Speaker 4: all the time and that CIA is like Trump is 293 00:16:23,904 --> 00:16:28,624 Speaker 4: spreading right now. CIA is not good, it's dangerous. It's 294 00:16:29,504 --> 00:16:32,104 Speaker 4: not good to speak truth to power, it's not good 295 00:16:32,264 --> 00:16:35,424 Speaker 4: to be honest or anything like that. I just feel 296 00:16:35,504 --> 00:16:38,224 Speaker 4: like it's gone off the charts. And part of that 297 00:16:38,344 --> 00:16:41,064 Speaker 4: is social media is out there and everything else as well. 298 00:16:41,824 --> 00:16:45,704 Speaker 4: And he loves working on social media, that's for sure. 299 00:16:46,064 --> 00:16:48,383 Speaker 3: Yeah. General Hayden wrote a book about this, about the 300 00:16:48,504 --> 00:16:52,624 Speaker 3: post truth world. It's where everything becomes partisanship in politics 301 00:16:52,944 --> 00:16:56,464 Speaker 3: for short term political gain. In an intelligence community can't 302 00:16:56,544 --> 00:16:59,504 Speaker 3: really exist in a post truth world, and so it's 303 00:16:59,544 --> 00:17:02,624 Speaker 3: a real it's a real problem. I don't think maybe 304 00:17:02,904 --> 00:17:06,144 Speaker 3: former presidents and former intelligence directors that have made clear 305 00:17:06,224 --> 00:17:09,144 Speaker 3: well enough or communicated American people how important that is 306 00:17:09,184 --> 00:17:12,864 Speaker 3: and how which we've actually benefited over the decades having 307 00:17:12,984 --> 00:17:17,544 Speaker 3: a serious expertise in international affairs and intelligence. We've tried 308 00:17:17,584 --> 00:17:18,304 Speaker 3: to produce. 309 00:17:18,144 --> 00:17:21,944 Speaker 4: Truth and that we tell the truth, and we fire 310 00:17:22,064 --> 00:17:25,384 Speaker 4: the people that don't that make up an asset and 311 00:17:25,544 --> 00:17:28,784 Speaker 4: make up a report maybe from a real asset or 312 00:17:28,864 --> 00:17:32,344 Speaker 4: something like that. We don't put up with that, and 313 00:17:32,784 --> 00:17:34,064 Speaker 4: it's our culture. 314 00:17:34,064 --> 00:17:36,104 Speaker 3: Which may suggest there's a lot of talk out there 315 00:17:36,144 --> 00:17:37,984 Speaker 3: now which I sort of stay away from a people, Well, 316 00:17:38,024 --> 00:17:40,184 Speaker 3: Trump's a Russian asset. He clearly is a Russian asset. 317 00:17:40,224 --> 00:17:42,104 Speaker 3: They've been running him for years and years. Can you 318 00:17:42,224 --> 00:17:45,984 Speaker 3: imagine trying to run him as an actual sources control? 319 00:17:46,224 --> 00:17:49,224 Speaker 3: As a controlled source is he doesn't know, he doesn't 320 00:17:49,264 --> 00:17:51,664 Speaker 3: know reality from not reality. It's all about him, It's 321 00:17:51,664 --> 00:17:54,864 Speaker 3: all about publicity. So I mean as a controlled spy, 322 00:17:54,944 --> 00:17:56,784 Speaker 3: the kind of spies that we tried to run to 323 00:17:56,824 --> 00:17:59,784 Speaker 3: provide us dilligence, he just doesn't fit that bill in 324 00:17:59,864 --> 00:18:02,504 Speaker 3: that sense. He might be valuable to the Russians or 325 00:18:02,544 --> 00:18:05,424 Speaker 3: somebody else in other ways, but as a spy in 326 00:18:05,464 --> 00:18:08,584 Speaker 3: the way that we define running a controlled source, that 327 00:18:08,704 --> 00:18:09,464 Speaker 3: just doesn't make sense. 328 00:18:09,304 --> 00:18:12,944 Speaker 4: Because, yeah, he's too unpredictable. 329 00:18:13,064 --> 00:18:15,144 Speaker 3: Let me ask you a more sort of question. You spent, 330 00:18:15,224 --> 00:18:17,624 Speaker 3: like I said, almost forty years inside Jerry, and I 331 00:18:17,744 --> 00:18:19,464 Speaker 3: know all the important and neat things you've done, and 332 00:18:19,544 --> 00:18:21,464 Speaker 3: you've been all over the world. Can you talk about 333 00:18:21,624 --> 00:18:24,864 Speaker 3: maybe some of your favorite experiences in the field or 334 00:18:25,584 --> 00:18:28,264 Speaker 3: in headquarters. Which place do you think were most important 335 00:18:28,304 --> 00:18:31,104 Speaker 3: in your development and which places did you like the best, so. 336 00:18:31,544 --> 00:18:33,704 Speaker 4: Most important in development. The one I liked the best 337 00:18:33,744 --> 00:18:35,824 Speaker 4: to my day to this day is my first tour, 338 00:18:35,904 --> 00:18:40,224 Speaker 4: which was Moscow USSR as a case officer. Mike Suluk 339 00:18:40,584 --> 00:18:42,984 Speaker 4: was my deputy chief of station. Mike Klent was my 340 00:18:43,104 --> 00:18:46,544 Speaker 4: chief of station, and Silica is just He's a righteous guy, 341 00:18:46,664 --> 00:18:48,824 Speaker 4: you know, and a really good boss and somebody that 342 00:18:49,104 --> 00:18:52,424 Speaker 4: was really good at mentoring all of us. My favorite 343 00:18:53,384 --> 00:18:57,784 Speaker 4: story about Mike was when he came to me and 344 00:18:57,984 --> 00:19:02,464 Speaker 4: he said, Susan, I need you to go do this operation, 345 00:19:03,064 --> 00:19:06,344 Speaker 4: and normally you will abort the operation if you find 346 00:19:06,384 --> 00:19:08,784 Speaker 4: that you have surveillance when you lead the embassy, leave 347 00:19:08,824 --> 00:19:12,224 Speaker 4: the embassy, and he goes, I want you to use 348 00:19:12,344 --> 00:19:15,944 Speaker 4: those California drive and skills, and I want you to 349 00:19:16,144 --> 00:19:19,184 Speaker 4: lose them. And I'm like, oh, this is the best 350 00:19:19,264 --> 00:19:21,584 Speaker 4: thing that's ever happened to me in life. And so 351 00:19:22,064 --> 00:19:26,464 Speaker 4: I go out and I did lose them. I definitely 352 00:19:26,544 --> 00:19:28,864 Speaker 4: had like normal I would call it normal surveillance. It 353 00:19:28,944 --> 00:19:32,904 Speaker 4: wasn't particularly sneaky or anything like that. I had the 354 00:19:32,984 --> 00:19:37,424 Speaker 4: regular two cars behind me that kept switching lanes and 355 00:19:37,504 --> 00:19:42,024 Speaker 4: stuff like that, and so I back then they just 356 00:19:42,104 --> 00:19:45,384 Speaker 4: had the stupid lattas that didn't have any kind of power, 357 00:19:45,504 --> 00:19:47,824 Speaker 4: and I had an American car. It was a plimouth 358 00:19:47,864 --> 00:19:51,504 Speaker 4: that wasn't like a nice car or anything, and I 359 00:19:51,784 --> 00:19:55,424 Speaker 4: just punched it and I lost them totally. And I 360 00:19:55,624 --> 00:19:59,304 Speaker 4: was gone for like ten hours, and I came back 361 00:19:59,624 --> 00:20:02,944 Speaker 4: to my apartment that was a New York Gorky park 362 00:20:03,344 --> 00:20:06,304 Speaker 4: that was off the compound, and I parked my car. 363 00:20:06,424 --> 00:20:09,904 Speaker 4: It was always snowy parked. My car went upstairs. I 364 00:20:09,944 --> 00:20:13,504 Speaker 4: could see that the uniformed KGB guys that were surrounding 365 00:20:13,584 --> 00:20:17,624 Speaker 4: all of our apartment buildings called me in when I 366 00:20:17,664 --> 00:20:19,864 Speaker 4: got in. And so the next day I come out 367 00:20:19,984 --> 00:20:23,184 Speaker 4: and sure enough, the snow is up to my windows 368 00:20:23,864 --> 00:20:25,544 Speaker 4: on the car like normal, and I just get in 369 00:20:25,624 --> 00:20:28,184 Speaker 4: the car and it's powdery snow and I just drive off. 370 00:20:28,664 --> 00:20:31,704 Speaker 4: And then I pull out and I see three surveillance 371 00:20:31,784 --> 00:20:33,384 Speaker 4: cars lined up in a row, and I'm like, oh, 372 00:20:33,424 --> 00:20:36,424 Speaker 4: they're really mad I was. I left them. There was 373 00:20:36,464 --> 00:20:39,544 Speaker 4: no other American diplomats living in that place, and so 374 00:20:39,784 --> 00:20:41,624 Speaker 4: I pull past them and I see all three of 375 00:20:41,664 --> 00:20:45,144 Speaker 4: them pull out behind me, and I turn on to 376 00:20:45,744 --> 00:20:49,544 Speaker 4: Leninski Prospect, which you know was the beltway of Moscow, 377 00:20:49,944 --> 00:20:53,024 Speaker 4: but with lights, big big you guys, remember it a 378 00:20:53,144 --> 00:20:55,624 Speaker 4: really big, big street. And I pull out and I'm 379 00:20:55,624 --> 00:20:58,744 Speaker 4: feeling a car field really pulling, really funny. So I 380 00:20:58,864 --> 00:21:01,424 Speaker 4: pull over and I get out of the car and 381 00:21:01,504 --> 00:21:03,944 Speaker 4: I look at my front right tire and I find 382 00:21:04,104 --> 00:21:06,744 Speaker 4: that there is a hole in the side wall. And 383 00:21:06,864 --> 00:21:10,224 Speaker 4: then I go around the car back to is fine. 384 00:21:10,304 --> 00:21:12,824 Speaker 4: Then the second back tire, the one on the opposite 385 00:21:12,904 --> 00:21:15,664 Speaker 4: side of the front tire, also had a hole in 386 00:21:15,784 --> 00:21:19,144 Speaker 4: it and its sidewall. And I look back and all 387 00:21:19,304 --> 00:21:22,384 Speaker 4: three of these cars they're laughing their heads off, and 388 00:21:22,504 --> 00:21:25,944 Speaker 4: I'm like, you know what, I know how to change 389 00:21:25,984 --> 00:21:29,184 Speaker 4: a tire. My dad didn't want me, being raised in California, 390 00:21:29,384 --> 00:21:33,024 Speaker 4: to get picked up by like another Charles Manson type 391 00:21:33,144 --> 00:21:35,344 Speaker 4: or whatever. But anyway, I knew how to do it, 392 00:21:35,464 --> 00:21:37,304 Speaker 4: but I was not going to do it. It was freezing, 393 00:21:37,384 --> 00:21:40,584 Speaker 4: I was like minus thirty and I just sat there. 394 00:21:41,024 --> 00:21:43,824 Speaker 4: I had a warm car. I knew that those Lattas 395 00:21:43,944 --> 00:21:47,304 Speaker 4: did not have heat. They even remember their steering wheels 396 00:21:47,344 --> 00:21:49,784 Speaker 4: were a little off, so they just were really crappy 397 00:21:49,824 --> 00:21:52,384 Speaker 4: piece of car. So finally, I don't know, It's like, 398 00:21:52,464 --> 00:21:54,584 Speaker 4: after twenty minutes one of them comes up and knocks 399 00:21:54,584 --> 00:21:58,024 Speaker 4: on my door and says, oh, hellos, I'm a innocent 400 00:21:58,144 --> 00:22:02,064 Speaker 4: Russian citizen, not a KGB guy following you. And I 401 00:22:02,224 --> 00:22:05,344 Speaker 4: just noticed that your car has been sitting here for 402 00:22:05,424 --> 00:22:07,944 Speaker 4: a while. Are you okay. I'm like, oh, yeah, fine, 403 00:22:07,984 --> 00:22:10,264 Speaker 4: don't worry about me. I got heat, I have two 404 00:22:10,464 --> 00:22:13,264 Speaker 4: flat tires. I have zero idea how it happened. And 405 00:22:13,544 --> 00:22:15,784 Speaker 4: I'm just waiting for somebody from the embassy to come by. 406 00:22:16,504 --> 00:22:19,304 Speaker 4: And don't worry about me again. I'm warm and I'm 407 00:22:19,344 --> 00:22:23,144 Speaker 4: doing fine. And so I saw this guy go back, 408 00:22:23,224 --> 00:22:25,784 Speaker 4: and I saw them arguing for like about ten minutes, 409 00:22:26,264 --> 00:22:28,664 Speaker 4: and then one of them comes up, and of course 410 00:22:28,704 --> 00:22:31,344 Speaker 4: they're cold because their coats aren't as good as ours 411 00:22:31,464 --> 00:22:34,584 Speaker 4: or anything like that. And the guy comes up and says, 412 00:22:34,744 --> 00:22:38,384 Speaker 4: will change your tires, And I'm like, okay, so that's 413 00:22:38,504 --> 00:22:41,584 Speaker 4: my best job. They flattened it and they changed it. 414 00:22:44,624 --> 00:22:56,464 Speaker 2: Just a second. We'll continue in a moment. So, Susan, 415 00:22:56,504 --> 00:22:59,944 Speaker 2: there's John and I. We do hear a lot people ask, oh, 416 00:23:00,064 --> 00:23:03,024 Speaker 2: my kid once is thinking about government service, and what 417 00:23:03,104 --> 00:23:05,664 Speaker 2: would you say, And throughout my entire CREB always said, 418 00:23:06,024 --> 00:23:08,624 Speaker 2: young talented kids, Yeah, you should think about the agents, 419 00:23:08,704 --> 00:23:10,944 Speaker 2: depending on what you want to do with your life 420 00:23:11,104 --> 00:23:13,784 Speaker 2: and so forth. But it's I mean, I loved my 421 00:23:14,344 --> 00:23:17,144 Speaker 2: thirty three years. I loved every tourament. What would you 422 00:23:17,224 --> 00:23:18,544 Speaker 2: tell a young person now? 423 00:23:19,144 --> 00:23:22,824 Speaker 4: So right now, it's still a really good place to work. 424 00:23:22,984 --> 00:23:26,024 Speaker 4: Let's just put it that way. You've still got most 425 00:23:26,064 --> 00:23:30,464 Speaker 4: of the people are just righteous, they're fabulous people. They've 426 00:23:30,544 --> 00:23:34,024 Speaker 4: got good morals, they've got good senses of humor, they've 427 00:23:34,064 --> 00:23:37,344 Speaker 4: got a desire to serve the US government. So it's 428 00:23:37,384 --> 00:23:40,704 Speaker 4: still a good thing to go after, and I would 429 00:23:40,824 --> 00:23:44,424 Speaker 4: encourage them to keep applying to it even if you 430 00:23:44,624 --> 00:23:46,904 Speaker 4: don't like whatever government. Let's say you didn't like Biden 431 00:23:47,024 --> 00:23:50,144 Speaker 4: or you didn't like Trump. It doesn't matter for the 432 00:23:50,704 --> 00:23:53,784 Speaker 4: most part. And when I say most, I'm out to 433 00:23:53,904 --> 00:23:57,824 Speaker 4: the ninety eight percent of the time. It doesn't matter 434 00:23:58,544 --> 00:24:02,224 Speaker 4: who's in charge. They might have different goals. Russia is 435 00:24:02,344 --> 00:24:04,744 Speaker 4: a bigger thing this time, or maybe I ran as 436 00:24:04,744 --> 00:24:07,224 Speaker 4: a bigger thing next time, or whatever. They want us 437 00:24:07,264 --> 00:24:09,464 Speaker 4: to do our jobs, and they want us to do 438 00:24:09,784 --> 00:24:13,664 Speaker 4: it right. The only issue right now that I have 439 00:24:14,544 --> 00:24:19,584 Speaker 4: with people applying is that when Musk was Doge, he 440 00:24:19,784 --> 00:24:24,664 Speaker 4: wanted to get rid of everybody that was in whatever 441 00:24:24,784 --> 00:24:28,104 Speaker 4: agency across the US government that had three years or less, 442 00:24:29,264 --> 00:24:32,704 Speaker 4: and that obviously was approved by Trump. I don't know 443 00:24:32,744 --> 00:24:34,544 Speaker 4: if it was invented by him. It might have been 444 00:24:34,584 --> 00:24:37,224 Speaker 4: invented by Musk, was approved by him. But again this 445 00:24:37,424 --> 00:24:41,824 Speaker 4: is asked backwards, thinking you and I, all three of 446 00:24:41,944 --> 00:24:47,344 Speaker 4: us have absolutely gone through ups and downs during times 447 00:24:47,544 --> 00:24:50,984 Speaker 4: when they needed to save money, we didn't have enough 448 00:24:51,024 --> 00:24:52,824 Speaker 4: money and all the rest of stuff. And what we 449 00:24:52,944 --> 00:24:57,104 Speaker 4: did was early outs people who wanted to retire a 450 00:24:57,184 --> 00:24:59,584 Speaker 4: couple of years early, and then they could take their 451 00:24:59,624 --> 00:25:02,544 Speaker 4: retirement a little bit early, and that was pretty much 452 00:25:02,584 --> 00:25:06,864 Speaker 4: a no cost freeing up some money, some extra money. 453 00:25:07,504 --> 00:25:10,544 Speaker 4: And then one of my concerns is that obviously the 454 00:25:10,664 --> 00:25:13,424 Speaker 4: Doge thing went away for now. I don't know that 455 00:25:13,624 --> 00:25:18,464 Speaker 4: the ideas are all gone, because the entity still exists, 456 00:25:19,344 --> 00:25:23,544 Speaker 4: but it just bothers me that they don't seem to 457 00:25:23,584 --> 00:25:26,704 Speaker 4: be doing what you guys and I would do. When 458 00:25:26,744 --> 00:25:29,944 Speaker 4: I want to try to maybe do something a different way, 459 00:25:30,344 --> 00:25:31,584 Speaker 4: I'm going to go and I'm going to get a 460 00:25:31,664 --> 00:25:34,064 Speaker 4: group of people together that I like and that I 461 00:25:34,184 --> 00:25:36,824 Speaker 4: know are going to give me different opinions of things, 462 00:25:37,464 --> 00:25:40,104 Speaker 4: and I want to work out is this going to work? 463 00:25:40,184 --> 00:25:42,304 Speaker 4: Is it not going to work? And then it's only 464 00:25:42,464 --> 00:25:44,744 Speaker 4: after I work with that group do I actually go 465 00:25:44,984 --> 00:25:48,784 Speaker 4: and I say, yes, I think something, something should be done. 466 00:25:48,944 --> 00:25:54,144 Speaker 4: And again that's something that I'm not seeing in this particular, 467 00:25:54,624 --> 00:25:57,264 Speaker 4: at least at the high levels of this government. But 468 00:25:57,344 --> 00:26:00,544 Speaker 4: I would hope that it's still going on even with 469 00:26:00,704 --> 00:26:04,024 Speaker 4: the new DNI, with the new DCIA, all the rest 470 00:26:04,104 --> 00:26:07,104 Speaker 4: of that stuff. I really hope that they are reaching 471 00:26:07,304 --> 00:26:12,944 Speaker 4: down to the people that work below them to really 472 00:26:13,304 --> 00:26:16,584 Speaker 4: think and talk out how we do things, why we 473 00:26:16,744 --> 00:26:22,464 Speaker 4: do things, and what our priorities should be according to 474 00:26:23,304 --> 00:26:27,544 Speaker 4: the President and to the NSC. Honestly, so a long 475 00:26:27,624 --> 00:26:30,584 Speaker 4: the short of it, that's I would still go into it. 476 00:26:30,824 --> 00:26:33,024 Speaker 4: There's always been up and down you we've all had them, 477 00:26:33,544 --> 00:26:35,704 Speaker 4: so it's it's worth going into. 478 00:26:35,984 --> 00:26:38,224 Speaker 2: It's a great career. Yeah it is, yeah too. 479 00:26:38,584 --> 00:26:41,184 Speaker 3: Yeah, I worry that it could get rubbed away when 480 00:26:41,224 --> 00:26:44,064 Speaker 3: the head of the CIA is saying, agreeing to what 481 00:26:44,184 --> 00:26:47,584 Speaker 3: Gabbert is saying, that the CI had lied about this stuff. Essentially, 482 00:26:47,584 --> 00:26:50,944 Speaker 3: you're throwing your workforce underneath the bus, saying people who 483 00:26:51,024 --> 00:26:53,104 Speaker 3: worked on this lied with you. Doing that's you can't 484 00:26:53,144 --> 00:26:54,904 Speaker 3: run an organization and say that the people work for 485 00:26:54,904 --> 00:26:55,464 Speaker 3: your own liars. 486 00:26:55,464 --> 00:26:58,184 Speaker 4: That's a problem. Yeah, And I think that's another good point, 487 00:26:58,624 --> 00:27:00,224 Speaker 4: is that those of us who are here on the 488 00:27:00,304 --> 00:27:04,984 Speaker 4: outside need to let people know that despite what the 489 00:27:05,144 --> 00:27:09,264 Speaker 4: movies and TV shows show you, we don't lie in 490 00:27:09,824 --> 00:27:15,224 Speaker 4: the building. We might lie to an agent that you're 491 00:27:15,304 --> 00:27:18,584 Speaker 4: trying to recruit that I'm State Department, but that's my cover. 492 00:27:19,224 --> 00:27:21,624 Speaker 4: That's a legal cover that I have that has been 493 00:27:22,504 --> 00:27:25,584 Speaker 4: given to me by the US government for a purpose. 494 00:27:25,864 --> 00:27:28,144 Speaker 4: But we if we get tell an agent, we're going 495 00:27:28,224 --> 00:27:30,584 Speaker 4: to give you ten thousand dollars for X we do. 496 00:27:31,784 --> 00:27:34,464 Speaker 4: And so yeah, it's still a good job. 497 00:27:34,624 --> 00:27:37,144 Speaker 3: Well, let me step back to your experience in Moscow 498 00:27:37,184 --> 00:27:39,384 Speaker 3: and we're gonna talk about some other things. My understanding 499 00:27:39,504 --> 00:27:41,304 Speaker 3: is you were there when the Prologue thing happened. 500 00:27:41,384 --> 00:27:41,784 Speaker 4: Is that true. 501 00:27:42,144 --> 00:27:44,144 Speaker 3: There's been some writing on it. I've actually written on 502 00:27:44,224 --> 00:27:46,184 Speaker 3: prolog and I've had it approved by the agency. 503 00:27:46,224 --> 00:27:47,984 Speaker 2: So Prologue helped me out us none. 504 00:27:48,224 --> 00:27:50,064 Speaker 3: Yes, So just to give you a quick sense, US 505 00:27:50,144 --> 00:27:51,464 Speaker 3: EU are guys cool? 506 00:27:51,544 --> 00:27:51,784 Speaker 2: Guys? 507 00:27:52,064 --> 00:27:53,984 Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go. In the seventies and eighties, the 508 00:27:54,064 --> 00:27:56,664 Speaker 3: Russians had recruited some sources to include Robert Hanson at 509 00:27:56,664 --> 00:28:00,944 Speaker 3: the FBI, Alder James at the CIA, and when Gorbachev 510 00:28:01,024 --> 00:28:04,144 Speaker 3: came in, he sententenally said was briefed and told that 511 00:28:04,184 --> 00:28:06,344 Speaker 3: there was a bunch of spies spying for the Americans. 512 00:28:06,384 --> 00:28:08,784 Speaker 3: But we know this because we have spies inside the 513 00:28:08,904 --> 00:28:13,024 Speaker 3: FBI and the SEA. And Gourbachev essentially told the KGB 514 00:28:13,344 --> 00:28:16,064 Speaker 3: and the MBD, the police there, you have to arrest 515 00:28:16,184 --> 00:28:19,104 Speaker 3: these Russians who are spying. Of course, that creates a 516 00:28:19,144 --> 00:28:23,344 Speaker 3: problem for the KGB. If all of our sources that 517 00:28:23,424 --> 00:28:25,984 Speaker 3: we know are arrested, we will then realize we have 518 00:28:26,064 --> 00:28:28,544 Speaker 3: a problem, that something's wrong, our communications are wrong, we 519 00:28:28,624 --> 00:28:31,984 Speaker 3: have a spy inside, and we may investigate and then 520 00:28:32,224 --> 00:28:35,584 Speaker 3: uncover their super secret spies Ames and Hansen, and so 521 00:28:35,704 --> 00:28:38,784 Speaker 3: as part of that process that Russians created a deception campaign. 522 00:28:39,264 --> 00:28:42,024 Speaker 3: What they did is they took a senior KGB officer, 523 00:28:42,304 --> 00:28:45,384 Speaker 3: his name is Sasha Jomoff. We called him Prologue our 524 00:28:45,464 --> 00:28:49,264 Speaker 3: code word from his prolog, and they ran him against 525 00:28:49,584 --> 00:28:52,424 Speaker 3: the station. So they essentially had this person contact the 526 00:28:52,464 --> 00:28:56,984 Speaker 3: CIO officer in Moscow provide incredibly important information to explain 527 00:28:57,064 --> 00:28:59,704 Speaker 3: why all these people who've been arrested what happened, and 528 00:28:59,744 --> 00:29:01,704 Speaker 3: they had a different reason for each one, that the 529 00:29:01,744 --> 00:29:04,544 Speaker 3: guide made a mistake, that CIA made a mistake, that 530 00:29:04,864 --> 00:29:06,944 Speaker 3: some of it was dumb luck. Because they didn't want 531 00:29:07,024 --> 00:29:09,384 Speaker 3: us looking and saying, why are all these people arrested? 532 00:29:09,624 --> 00:29:11,944 Speaker 3: Must be a spy, let's go investigate. They wanted to 533 00:29:11,984 --> 00:29:14,944 Speaker 3: give us an alternative explanation. And so he was what 534 00:29:15,024 --> 00:29:16,464 Speaker 3: we call like a double agent, and he was run 535 00:29:16,544 --> 00:29:20,224 Speaker 3: against us to give us false information, deceptive information, And 536 00:29:20,464 --> 00:29:23,864 Speaker 3: there was debates within the station with CIA, is this 537 00:29:24,024 --> 00:29:26,664 Speaker 3: person real? Is this fake? Are they trying to fool us? 538 00:29:26,824 --> 00:29:29,024 Speaker 3: Is this a real source? Because he's giving us really 539 00:29:29,064 --> 00:29:31,824 Speaker 3: interesting information? And fast forward it turned out that it 540 00:29:31,984 --> 00:29:34,584 Speaker 3: was a deception operation on the Russian But you were there, 541 00:29:34,664 --> 00:29:36,464 Speaker 3: So what was it like being in the station when 542 00:29:36,504 --> 00:29:38,344 Speaker 3: you were having these debates people who have to go 543 00:29:38,384 --> 00:29:40,624 Speaker 3: out on the streets, the snowy streets to meet a 544 00:29:40,664 --> 00:29:42,744 Speaker 3: spy and not sure whether he was. 545 00:29:42,784 --> 00:29:43,304 Speaker 2: Real or not. 546 00:29:43,784 --> 00:29:47,304 Speaker 4: Yeah, our boss at the time, well su Look and Cline, 547 00:29:47,984 --> 00:29:51,464 Speaker 4: we knew they were running a very super secret case 548 00:29:51,584 --> 00:29:54,984 Speaker 4: which was prolog, and we also knew that there were 549 00:29:55,064 --> 00:29:58,424 Speaker 4: starting to be a few doubts about it. That sort 550 00:29:58,504 --> 00:30:04,624 Speaker 4: of thing, and that there were some really weird things 551 00:30:04,784 --> 00:30:08,984 Speaker 4: happening at some of our site where we would go, 552 00:30:09,824 --> 00:30:12,424 Speaker 4: and I remember going to one myself to pick something 553 00:30:12,624 --> 00:30:16,744 Speaker 4: up and there was a candle burning next to where 554 00:30:16,824 --> 00:30:20,184 Speaker 4: it was. And that's not something that this particular agent 555 00:30:20,264 --> 00:30:22,864 Speaker 4: had ever done before, as I learned when I came back, 556 00:30:22,904 --> 00:30:24,384 Speaker 4: and I'm like, oh, does this guy always leave a 557 00:30:24,464 --> 00:30:27,384 Speaker 4: candle by it? You know kind of thing. So we 558 00:30:27,544 --> 00:30:31,864 Speaker 4: definitely knew something was off. But at the time, the 559 00:30:31,984 --> 00:30:37,784 Speaker 4: guys who were spying against CIA for the Russians were 560 00:30:38,144 --> 00:30:42,344 Speaker 4: telling people that, no, there'd never be a spy inside 561 00:30:42,424 --> 00:30:47,144 Speaker 4: the agency, it has to be tradecraft, and all of 562 00:30:47,264 --> 00:30:50,904 Speaker 4: us were like looking at us, saying, no, there's something 563 00:30:51,064 --> 00:30:55,344 Speaker 4: more here. And so eventually that ended up working out, 564 00:30:56,184 --> 00:30:59,104 Speaker 4: and we were able to find out that there were 565 00:30:59,784 --> 00:31:03,744 Speaker 4: several spies hands and and all, and I remember, oh gosh, 566 00:31:04,104 --> 00:31:07,424 Speaker 4: and working with the FBI on this, and we had 567 00:31:07,504 --> 00:31:11,984 Speaker 4: gotten all this great information and that showed that clearly 568 00:31:12,184 --> 00:31:17,984 Speaker 4: that this particular American spy spying against America for Russia 569 00:31:18,824 --> 00:31:21,424 Speaker 4: was clearly had to be FBI. And I won't go 570 00:31:21,424 --> 00:31:23,144 Speaker 4: into details about how we knew that, but we just 571 00:31:23,304 --> 00:31:26,504 Speaker 4: we could just tell and we kept telling FBI this, 572 00:31:26,984 --> 00:31:29,384 Speaker 4: it's got to be an FBI agent would never do it, 573 00:31:29,544 --> 00:31:32,984 Speaker 4: only CIA and other people would. And then I remember 574 00:31:33,544 --> 00:31:35,744 Speaker 4: one of the guys I worked with FBI guy, a 575 00:31:35,904 --> 00:31:40,464 Speaker 4: guy named Dave's eighty. He actually was there when we 576 00:31:40,624 --> 00:31:43,584 Speaker 4: got the final piece of information in the form of 577 00:31:43,664 --> 00:31:47,864 Speaker 4: a recording, and he listens to the recording and he 578 00:31:47,984 --> 00:31:51,224 Speaker 4: starts saying the F word over and over again. He goes, 579 00:31:51,264 --> 00:31:54,424 Speaker 4: I know exactly who this fing is and as one 580 00:31:54,504 --> 00:31:56,984 Speaker 4: of ours, Yeah, that was ateresting times. 581 00:31:57,064 --> 00:32:01,664 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you were head of counterintelligence for the agency. Yes, 582 00:32:02,064 --> 00:32:07,144 Speaker 2: And people on the outside tend not to understand what 583 00:32:07,384 --> 00:32:11,104 Speaker 2: sort of decisions you have to make with incomplete information. 584 00:32:11,384 --> 00:32:13,504 Speaker 2: You have to make inferences, you have to make choices. 585 00:32:13,944 --> 00:32:17,504 Speaker 2: When most people are like, okay, it's a court of law, right, 586 00:32:17,704 --> 00:32:21,264 Speaker 2: it's like you've either you've got the evidence, the smoking gun, 587 00:32:21,504 --> 00:32:25,904 Speaker 2: or you don't. But in counterintelligence, it's often just the 588 00:32:26,064 --> 00:32:29,984 Speaker 2: preponderance of evidence. Right, it's more likely than not that 589 00:32:30,144 --> 00:32:32,864 Speaker 2: this is true, but we can't prove it, or we 590 00:32:33,024 --> 00:32:34,704 Speaker 2: can prove it, but we're not going to prove it 591 00:32:34,784 --> 00:32:37,544 Speaker 2: because that could cost someone their life. So when you 592 00:32:37,784 --> 00:32:42,944 Speaker 2: see the US society pulling itself apart. So is Trump 593 00:32:43,464 --> 00:32:46,104 Speaker 2: an asset of the Russians? Asset not meaning he's a 594 00:32:46,184 --> 00:32:49,704 Speaker 2: paid spy, but he's he's basically working with them. Or 595 00:32:50,064 --> 00:32:53,144 Speaker 2: was there collusion between the campaign? And I'll just hit 596 00:32:53,464 --> 00:32:56,664 Speaker 2: just two or three points that are irrefutable. Right. Paul Manifort, 597 00:32:56,824 --> 00:33:00,864 Speaker 2: his campaign manager in twenty sixteen, was meeting secretly with 598 00:33:00,944 --> 00:33:06,384 Speaker 2: a Russian intelligence agent, and Don Junior met with a 599 00:33:06,584 --> 00:33:10,544 Speaker 2: Russian asset in Trump Tower who said, we've got recordings, 600 00:33:10,544 --> 00:33:13,344 Speaker 2: We've done legal activity in the United States. He said great, 601 00:33:13,704 --> 00:33:16,344 Speaker 2: and then he lied to the FBI about it initially. 602 00:33:16,664 --> 00:33:21,264 Speaker 2: So those don't prove collusion, but they are inferences. They 603 00:33:21,264 --> 00:33:24,664 Speaker 2: are data points that make you, like uncomfortable. How do 604 00:33:24,784 --> 00:33:27,624 Speaker 2: you deal now in your life when you see things 605 00:33:27,744 --> 00:33:31,424 Speaker 2: like Epstein. There's all these unanswered questions. There's no proof 606 00:33:31,464 --> 00:33:35,424 Speaker 2: of anything or Trump's relationship to the Russians. How do 607 00:33:35,584 --> 00:33:37,904 Speaker 2: you think about it? And how should we on the 608 00:33:38,024 --> 00:33:41,104 Speaker 2: outside think about it. We can't prove anything, but we 609 00:33:41,184 --> 00:33:44,144 Speaker 2: can have opinions. We can have informed opinions, we can 610 00:33:44,224 --> 00:33:48,184 Speaker 2: make informed assessments, we can like do balances. How would 611 00:33:48,224 --> 00:33:51,904 Speaker 2: you just in general, how would you have people think 612 00:33:51,944 --> 00:33:54,224 Speaker 2: about this because it's complicated. They just want a black 613 00:33:54,304 --> 00:33:57,824 Speaker 2: or white yes or no, an encounterintelligence that's rarely, if 614 00:33:57,864 --> 00:33:58,504 Speaker 2: ever the case. 615 00:33:58,944 --> 00:34:01,864 Speaker 4: Yeah, black and white is hard because counter intelligence just 616 00:34:01,984 --> 00:34:05,904 Speaker 4: gives you hazy information, right, Yeah, it's an actual investigation 617 00:34:06,184 --> 00:34:09,344 Speaker 4: where you start getting more and more of that hazy 618 00:34:09,544 --> 00:34:12,584 Speaker 4: information that you're able to bring it together and say, 619 00:34:13,744 --> 00:34:17,464 Speaker 4: this guy or somebody with this profile has to be 620 00:34:17,584 --> 00:34:22,343 Speaker 4: the spy. Yes, I think we still have to look 621 00:34:22,384 --> 00:34:26,863 Speaker 4: at anybody that we recruit could be lying, he could 622 00:34:26,944 --> 00:34:31,184 Speaker 4: be really telling us the absolute truth. But we also 623 00:34:31,464 --> 00:34:33,984 Speaker 4: have to have that skepticism in the back of our 624 00:34:34,104 --> 00:34:37,183 Speaker 4: mind so we don't get lazy and just take it on. 625 00:34:37,864 --> 00:34:40,223 Speaker 4: And like you were saying, we've got to be able 626 00:34:40,304 --> 00:34:42,703 Speaker 4: to corroborate it. We've got to be able to see 627 00:34:42,743 --> 00:34:46,544 Speaker 4: if he can recite it more than once that it's 628 00:34:46,663 --> 00:34:51,383 Speaker 4: something that before we would accuse somebody of being a spy, 629 00:34:52,223 --> 00:34:55,223 Speaker 4: then you would have to have some counter surveillance and 630 00:34:55,344 --> 00:34:58,744 Speaker 4: surveillance of the person in America or wherever this American 631 00:34:58,864 --> 00:35:01,064 Speaker 4: was living. I mean that sort of thing. 632 00:35:01,703 --> 00:35:04,944 Speaker 2: The bullet report was not a counterintelligence report, right it was. 633 00:35:05,183 --> 00:35:08,743 Speaker 4: It was not a counterintelligence report. It was simply a 634 00:35:08,984 --> 00:35:13,704 Speaker 4: report that was done by the counter Intelligence Mission Center, 635 00:35:14,544 --> 00:35:25,143 Speaker 4: because we had our election being impacted by an enemy country. 636 00:35:25,384 --> 00:35:27,663 Speaker 4: And I don't mean the Russian people. I'm talking about 637 00:35:27,703 --> 00:35:33,104 Speaker 4: the government right the enemy country. And that is something 638 00:35:33,263 --> 00:35:36,623 Speaker 4: that we have to stand up and really take a 639 00:35:36,743 --> 00:35:41,584 Speaker 4: hard look at immediately, because at the end of the day, 640 00:35:41,663 --> 00:35:48,863 Speaker 4: the democracy depends on a free and unhindered and unfiddled 641 00:35:48,984 --> 00:35:54,424 Speaker 4: with election process. And this is why it's so serious. 642 00:35:54,944 --> 00:35:58,944 Speaker 2: So in twenty sixteen, yes, go to Hell's that's go afterwards, 643 00:35:58,984 --> 00:36:01,984 Speaker 2: let's go to Helsinki where Trunk meets with Putin and 644 00:36:02,064 --> 00:36:05,503 Speaker 2: he's asked famously, I think it was nineteen Basically every 645 00:36:05,623 --> 00:36:11,624 Speaker 2: single US intelligence community entity, CIA, FBI, and every single 646 00:36:11,703 --> 00:36:15,263 Speaker 2: one of them said that Russia attempted to and did 647 00:36:15,384 --> 00:36:17,863 Speaker 2: impact on our election in some way, shape or form. 648 00:36:18,223 --> 00:36:22,423 Speaker 2: And he said the president said he was. The President said, well, 649 00:36:22,504 --> 00:36:24,783 Speaker 2: I believe Vladimir pooh, he said he didn't do it. 650 00:36:25,344 --> 00:36:28,463 Speaker 2: Now as a counterintelligence officer or just as a human being, 651 00:36:28,623 --> 00:36:30,783 Speaker 2: I'm like, either A, he's lying because he's want to 652 00:36:30,783 --> 00:36:36,183 Speaker 2: embarrassed Putin A or B what the fuck? Yeah, I 653 00:36:36,263 --> 00:36:39,823 Speaker 2: can't prove anything with that, but boy, that just is 654 00:36:40,223 --> 00:36:41,303 Speaker 2: like freaking weird. 655 00:36:41,464 --> 00:36:46,904 Speaker 4: Yeah. See, he seems to like the power the Russian 656 00:36:47,424 --> 00:36:52,824 Speaker 4: tippy top government officials had that a democracy like ours, 657 00:36:52,984 --> 00:36:55,223 Speaker 4: in like Europe, and like other democracies around the world, 658 00:36:55,304 --> 00:36:59,944 Speaker 4: don't have where you can just choose to throw anybody 659 00:36:59,984 --> 00:37:03,904 Speaker 4: who disagrees with you in jail or threatened them or 660 00:37:04,183 --> 00:37:06,263 Speaker 4: whatever to get them to shut up. 661 00:37:06,544 --> 00:37:08,303 Speaker 3: And now I think all of these things that you 662 00:37:08,384 --> 00:37:11,903 Speaker 3: talk about looking things as a counter intelligence officer, Yeah, 663 00:37:12,024 --> 00:37:13,703 Speaker 3: it's not like a court of law. We don't have 664 00:37:13,944 --> 00:37:16,263 Speaker 3: absolute evidence to put someone in to arrest them. But 665 00:37:16,384 --> 00:37:19,584 Speaker 3: you see a pattern of activity, yah, would suggest something. 666 00:37:19,663 --> 00:37:22,664 Speaker 3: So a twenty four year old working for the FBI, 667 00:37:22,824 --> 00:37:25,064 Speaker 3: the State to parmit, the CIA, the Defense Partment has 668 00:37:25,064 --> 00:37:27,864 Speaker 3: to give a security clearance. With the pattern of activity 669 00:37:27,944 --> 00:37:30,303 Speaker 3: we've seen around Trump and the Trump family, that would 670 00:37:30,344 --> 00:37:32,424 Speaker 3: be enough of a pattern to not give them a 671 00:37:32,464 --> 00:37:33,663 Speaker 3: security clearance. 672 00:37:33,384 --> 00:37:37,104 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, at one hundred percent, there'd be no chance 673 00:37:37,183 --> 00:37:40,864 Speaker 4: of it of getting a security clearance. And that is 674 00:37:41,024 --> 00:37:44,544 Speaker 4: absolutely true when you look at the various lives he's 675 00:37:44,584 --> 00:37:48,344 Speaker 4: been telling over time, first of all, and secondly, is 676 00:37:48,944 --> 00:37:53,864 Speaker 4: he is so arrogant and so all about me. The 677 00:37:54,064 --> 00:37:57,663 Speaker 4: easiest people to recruit are the arrogant ones. You guys 678 00:37:57,743 --> 00:38:00,424 Speaker 4: know this. The ones that want money also can be 679 00:38:00,663 --> 00:38:03,904 Speaker 4: you know, okay, but the arrogant ones where you go 680 00:38:04,064 --> 00:38:06,984 Speaker 4: to a guy and you say, oh, you mean your 681 00:38:07,183 --> 00:38:11,943 Speaker 4: boss the foreign minister yelled at you. Oh god, I'd 682 00:38:12,024 --> 00:38:14,623 Speaker 4: never yell at you, and you know, you should be 683 00:38:14,743 --> 00:38:17,183 Speaker 4: really mad and all the rest of the stuff. And 684 00:38:17,384 --> 00:38:22,143 Speaker 4: then you also, people who want power and money are 685 00:38:22,223 --> 00:38:25,943 Speaker 4: really easy too. But I'm just saying that when you're 686 00:38:26,024 --> 00:38:30,064 Speaker 4: looking at some of the traits that our president has, 687 00:38:30,263 --> 00:38:34,104 Speaker 4: and it's one of those things that we would look at. 688 00:38:34,464 --> 00:38:38,384 Speaker 4: And certainly I'm not you know, claiming he's an agent 689 00:38:38,663 --> 00:38:43,464 Speaker 4: of the Russians, but certainly who has enamored him and 690 00:38:44,263 --> 00:38:47,183 Speaker 4: he likes what he sees there. Despite the fact that 691 00:38:47,904 --> 00:38:51,864 Speaker 4: Trump did the waffling on the whole aid to Ukraine, 692 00:38:52,504 --> 00:38:54,663 Speaker 4: originally he took it away, which I was like, oh, 693 00:38:54,944 --> 00:38:56,984 Speaker 4: there you go again, and then he went back. But 694 00:38:57,263 --> 00:38:59,984 Speaker 4: I am like ninety nine percent sure that was because 695 00:39:00,143 --> 00:39:02,303 Speaker 4: Congress and other people and even to some of his 696 00:39:02,464 --> 00:39:06,024 Speaker 4: constituents came to him and said, you know, wtf are 697 00:39:06,064 --> 00:39:06,383 Speaker 4: you doing. 698 00:39:06,743 --> 00:39:09,144 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, Susan, you also had one of your senior 699 00:39:09,263 --> 00:39:13,383 Speaker 3: jobs CIA was over China. Can you, in general tell 700 00:39:13,504 --> 00:39:16,504 Speaker 3: us how United States, either the intelligence community or our 701 00:39:16,504 --> 00:39:20,904 Speaker 3: ability to defend ourselves against Chinese? How are we positioned 702 00:39:21,024 --> 00:39:23,104 Speaker 3: to deal with the Chinese whether you want to call 703 00:39:23,143 --> 00:39:24,984 Speaker 3: it a threat or challenge, whatever you want to call it. 704 00:39:25,143 --> 00:39:28,463 Speaker 4: So there, I was having fun and what I thought 705 00:39:28,544 --> 00:39:30,424 Speaker 4: was going to be my last tour, and I was 706 00:39:30,464 --> 00:39:33,823 Speaker 4: going to retire out of Israel when Director Burns came 707 00:39:33,944 --> 00:39:36,263 Speaker 4: and I'd screwed up by not screwing up his visit, 708 00:39:36,984 --> 00:39:39,703 Speaker 4: and he asked me, are we doing enough on China? 709 00:39:39,743 --> 00:39:41,584 Speaker 4: And I said hell no, and he goes, yeah, I've 710 00:39:41,584 --> 00:39:43,703 Speaker 4: been talking to some other people at Connie Taub and 711 00:39:43,783 --> 00:39:47,703 Speaker 4: some others at our former colleagues and things like that, 712 00:39:48,064 --> 00:39:51,024 Speaker 4: and he said, I don't think we're doing enough on China, 713 00:39:51,024 --> 00:39:53,863 Speaker 4: and I said we're not. And what I told him 714 00:39:54,504 --> 00:39:59,104 Speaker 4: was that Shi Jin Ping. You know, everybody was hopeful 715 00:39:59,263 --> 00:40:02,224 Speaker 4: when he took over that he might still be bringing 716 00:40:02,384 --> 00:40:05,264 Speaker 4: China a little bit more towards a democracy or something 717 00:40:05,743 --> 00:40:09,463 Speaker 4: that was at least approaching it, but he very short 718 00:40:10,584 --> 00:40:15,383 Speaker 4: started showing that no, he himself is a dictator. He's 719 00:40:15,464 --> 00:40:19,864 Speaker 4: going after the ethnic groups. I was actually out in Beijing. 720 00:40:19,944 --> 00:40:21,544 Speaker 4: I went to Beijing for a visit when I was 721 00:40:21,663 --> 00:40:24,183 Speaker 4: Chief of China Mission Center, and there is a camera 722 00:40:24,424 --> 00:40:28,104 Speaker 4: every three feet in that place. You can't spit on 723 00:40:28,183 --> 00:40:31,263 Speaker 4: the ground and have somebody not see it, and the 724 00:40:31,384 --> 00:40:34,623 Speaker 4: Chinese will probably arrest you. But the bottom line is 725 00:40:34,824 --> 00:40:39,584 Speaker 4: that this is a much bigger threat because they have 726 00:40:40,703 --> 00:40:45,663 Speaker 4: much more economic ties with the West, so none of 727 00:40:45,783 --> 00:40:50,343 Speaker 4: us can completely break with them. And secondly, they are 728 00:40:50,464 --> 00:40:54,423 Speaker 4: not afraid to use that to convince us don't break 729 00:40:54,464 --> 00:40:59,864 Speaker 4: with us. And third when it comes to espionage and 730 00:41:00,024 --> 00:41:05,024 Speaker 4: things like that, they are willing to come after us 731 00:41:05,864 --> 00:41:08,584 Speaker 4: in ways that we've never seen before and spend money 732 00:41:08,663 --> 00:41:11,024 Speaker 4: on it. And they do this with their own people. 733 00:41:11,223 --> 00:41:14,064 Speaker 4: It's not just us. So it's just the difference so 734 00:41:14,223 --> 00:41:19,344 Speaker 4: far between US and them is them monitoring their people, 735 00:41:19,504 --> 00:41:22,384 Speaker 4: putting them in jail for no reason just because you 736 00:41:22,464 --> 00:41:26,904 Speaker 4: looked at a Western newspaper. But they are so more intertwined, 737 00:41:27,143 --> 00:41:30,183 Speaker 4: and they are so more thoughtful and patient in the 738 00:41:30,223 --> 00:41:33,224 Speaker 4: way they do their operations against us than the Russians 739 00:41:33,263 --> 00:41:38,224 Speaker 4: they've ever done that it is something that correctly needed 740 00:41:38,263 --> 00:41:42,344 Speaker 4: to have extra focus on. That's my thinking on China. 741 00:41:42,904 --> 00:41:45,904 Speaker 4: I do think when I look at it, China and 742 00:41:46,143 --> 00:41:51,144 Speaker 4: Russia together are our two biggest threats in the United 743 00:41:51,143 --> 00:41:51,824 Speaker 4: States government. 744 00:41:51,904 --> 00:41:55,863 Speaker 3: Right now, Let's take a break and be right there. 745 00:42:09,584 --> 00:42:12,503 Speaker 2: And it's clear inside of the agency that the CIA 746 00:42:12,783 --> 00:42:15,263 Speaker 2: almost didn't survive when John and I left. 747 00:42:15,344 --> 00:42:18,223 Speaker 4: I don't know how it hung on, but I didn't 748 00:42:18,223 --> 00:42:20,743 Speaker 4: mean to laugh out loud, but I don't know how with. 749 00:42:20,824 --> 00:42:23,424 Speaker 2: The three of us gone, it can ever survive, isn't it? 750 00:42:23,544 --> 00:42:23,663 Speaker 4: Right? 751 00:42:23,824 --> 00:42:27,064 Speaker 2: So that'll say, yeah, But one thing I've been struck by, 752 00:42:27,504 --> 00:42:29,623 Speaker 2: and I wanted to ask your opinion in John's two 753 00:42:29,944 --> 00:42:32,143 Speaker 2: you grew up in California. John and I both grew 754 00:42:32,223 --> 00:42:34,703 Speaker 2: up in like small towns in upstate New York. I 755 00:42:34,783 --> 00:42:36,864 Speaker 2: grew up in a town with one street light and 756 00:42:36,944 --> 00:42:40,104 Speaker 2: two bars and four churches. And tells you what, and 757 00:42:40,544 --> 00:42:42,743 Speaker 2: clearly you didn't get to any of them. I was 758 00:42:42,743 --> 00:42:46,263 Speaker 2: an older boy. But we've spent most of our careers 759 00:42:46,703 --> 00:42:51,104 Speaker 2: either abroad, living outside the United States or inside the Beltwait, 760 00:42:51,143 --> 00:42:55,544 Speaker 2: which is arguably true, weirdly only part of the United States. 761 00:42:56,024 --> 00:42:59,703 Speaker 2: And now that you're out, are you finding that the 762 00:42:59,864 --> 00:43:02,223 Speaker 2: country you thought you knew and that you defend it 763 00:43:02,384 --> 00:43:05,184 Speaker 2: is either different than you thought it is the same 764 00:43:05,864 --> 00:43:06,944 Speaker 2: or has it changed? 765 00:43:07,623 --> 00:43:11,703 Speaker 4: Those are all really good questions, and it is interesting 766 00:43:12,024 --> 00:43:14,663 Speaker 4: for any of us that either worked at CIA or 767 00:43:14,703 --> 00:43:17,623 Speaker 4: State Department, or worked for a business and lived overseas, 768 00:43:18,544 --> 00:43:25,224 Speaker 4: you can understand the view that that country's citizen injury against, 769 00:43:25,464 --> 00:43:28,783 Speaker 4: for us or against what their views are much better 770 00:43:28,904 --> 00:43:34,104 Speaker 4: by talking to them. And what I have found is 771 00:43:34,344 --> 00:43:37,703 Speaker 4: that a lot of it depends on what's going on 772 00:43:38,424 --> 00:43:41,223 Speaker 4: things like that, and who you were talking to. I 773 00:43:41,304 --> 00:43:44,264 Speaker 4: had lunch not too long ago with a British colleague 774 00:43:44,703 --> 00:43:49,743 Speaker 4: whose works for six and I asked her, what are 775 00:43:49,783 --> 00:43:53,504 Speaker 4: your views of America like right now? And she said, 776 00:43:54,424 --> 00:43:57,344 Speaker 4: it's not just England. It's not just England, it's not 777 00:43:57,464 --> 00:44:01,464 Speaker 4: just the United Kingdom, but all of Europe is very 778 00:44:01,623 --> 00:44:06,343 Speaker 4: concerned about a lot of things Trump is saying. Whether 779 00:44:06,464 --> 00:44:10,143 Speaker 4: he'll follow through on us, we don't know. But it 780 00:44:10,623 --> 00:44:15,703 Speaker 4: really disturbs us, is what they say. I said, yeah, 781 00:44:15,864 --> 00:44:19,263 Speaker 4: I think that's fair, But you guys got to remember 782 00:44:19,904 --> 00:44:24,383 Speaker 4: that we are still really good partners. We were still 783 00:44:24,464 --> 00:44:29,384 Speaker 4: good partners under the previous Trump administration. And as you 784 00:44:29,504 --> 00:44:31,823 Speaker 4: see how things unfold in this one, you'll get an 785 00:44:31,904 --> 00:44:34,343 Speaker 4: idea as to what you want to share with us 786 00:44:34,424 --> 00:44:38,423 Speaker 4: and what you don't. But don't just dismiss it out 787 00:44:38,464 --> 00:44:42,424 Speaker 4: of hand. Keep your relationships up with the various coss 788 00:44:42,504 --> 00:44:46,504 Speaker 4: around the world and with us here, and we should 789 00:44:46,984 --> 00:44:49,983 Speaker 4: continue to keep that door open where the five eyes 790 00:44:50,024 --> 00:44:52,624 Speaker 4: were strong. We've done a lot of great things together. 791 00:44:53,104 --> 00:44:56,464 Speaker 4: But I can tell you right now they are a 792 00:44:56,623 --> 00:45:02,944 Speaker 4: little concerned about sharing things on Russia with us because 793 00:45:03,623 --> 00:45:06,223 Speaker 4: where it might go or not go, is it going 794 00:45:06,304 --> 00:45:09,183 Speaker 4: to be publicized or are they going to be targeted 795 00:45:09,663 --> 00:45:13,823 Speaker 4: in the same way that say we were. 796 00:45:14,024 --> 00:45:17,464 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're going after you for saying something sensible, that 797 00:45:17,623 --> 00:45:20,943 Speaker 3: was source driven, that was well press on Russia. If 798 00:45:21,024 --> 00:45:23,024 Speaker 3: the British had given us some of the key information 799 00:45:23,143 --> 00:45:25,704 Speaker 3: that had led to that they would be attacking the British, 800 00:45:25,783 --> 00:45:27,984 Speaker 3: the British sources would be outed, all these kind of things, 801 00:45:28,024 --> 00:45:31,184 Speaker 3: and so it's understandable that foreigners are concerned about sharing 802 00:45:31,263 --> 00:45:33,743 Speaker 3: secret information with it. So, Jerry, I think there's a 803 00:45:33,783 --> 00:45:36,784 Speaker 3: real concern with things changing, and some of it's inevitable. 804 00:45:36,824 --> 00:45:36,904 Speaker 4: Right. 805 00:45:36,944 --> 00:45:39,944 Speaker 3: So, there was a post World War two America. You know, 806 00:45:40,064 --> 00:45:42,624 Speaker 3: we came through one of the biggest challenges in our history. 807 00:45:43,344 --> 00:45:45,424 Speaker 3: Then there was Stalin with the bomb and we had 808 00:45:45,464 --> 00:45:47,944 Speaker 3: to figure out what was the threat from communism, and 809 00:45:48,143 --> 00:45:52,544 Speaker 3: essentially our leadership over time created the greatest generation period 810 00:45:52,584 --> 00:45:55,663 Speaker 3: of peace probably yeah, in history, and the greatest economic 811 00:45:55,743 --> 00:45:58,584 Speaker 3: growth the world has ever seen. But we've now moved 812 00:45:58,584 --> 00:46:01,143 Speaker 3: to a point where I think people forget that. They 813 00:46:01,223 --> 00:46:03,183 Speaker 3: forget what was good about that. I don't know if 814 00:46:03,424 --> 00:46:07,264 Speaker 3: leadership communicated well enough how different that was in world history, 815 00:46:07,824 --> 00:46:11,743 Speaker 3: and people feel disconnected. I think mobialization is scared people 816 00:46:11,783 --> 00:46:13,464 Speaker 3: of the rest of the world is changing and I 817 00:46:13,584 --> 00:46:16,783 Speaker 3: can't control if my job is going to China or something. 818 00:46:16,824 --> 00:46:19,504 Speaker 3: I can't control that, and so there's a lot of issues. 819 00:46:19,544 --> 00:46:21,263 Speaker 3: I think we have to expect a lot of change. 820 00:46:21,263 --> 00:46:23,504 Speaker 3: But I think the world is different and our leaders 821 00:46:23,623 --> 00:46:25,183 Speaker 3: are going to have to come to terms with it. 822 00:46:25,263 --> 00:46:26,663 Speaker 3: And one of the things I'm frustrated with is I 823 00:46:26,703 --> 00:46:30,143 Speaker 3: don't think this leadership is taking those challenges seriously. Trump 824 00:46:30,263 --> 00:46:32,704 Speaker 3: acts like it's the nineteen seventies and we need more coal, 825 00:46:32,864 --> 00:46:35,263 Speaker 3: and we need to not trade with other countries, and 826 00:46:35,304 --> 00:46:37,303 Speaker 3: we need to get rid of immigrants, and I think 827 00:46:37,344 --> 00:46:39,584 Speaker 3: it's just the opposite, right, But time will tell. 828 00:46:39,864 --> 00:46:43,383 Speaker 4: Bring back Smoot Holly, Yeah, I totally agree. I think 829 00:46:43,504 --> 00:46:46,984 Speaker 4: that's an underlying theme even to our own conversation, is 830 00:46:47,783 --> 00:46:51,024 Speaker 4: him acting on things and coming up with ideas without 831 00:46:51,143 --> 00:46:55,984 Speaker 4: talking to other people and understanding what works and what doesn't, 832 00:46:56,104 --> 00:46:59,384 Speaker 4: and getting the teams together to comment and work on 833 00:46:59,663 --> 00:47:00,984 Speaker 4: various issues and stuff like that. 834 00:47:01,344 --> 00:47:03,424 Speaker 3: So he's got the greatest resource in the history of 835 00:47:03,424 --> 00:47:05,743 Speaker 3: the world. The United States government has more experts on 836 00:47:05,904 --> 00:47:09,703 Speaker 3: more issues, and more power and firing though. Yeah, he's 837 00:47:09,743 --> 00:47:12,823 Speaker 3: treating him like his enemy because they don't always tell 838 00:47:12,904 --> 00:47:14,863 Speaker 3: him exactly what he wants to hear. And we took 839 00:47:14,944 --> 00:47:17,383 Speaker 3: pride in the CIA telling leadership what I didn't want 840 00:47:17,384 --> 00:47:19,584 Speaker 3: to hear, like, yeah, it's becoming and say, listen, sir, 841 00:47:19,663 --> 00:47:21,104 Speaker 3: I know this is your policy, but here's what the 842 00:47:21,183 --> 00:47:23,984 Speaker 3: truth is over to you, Yeah, and yeah, and to him, 843 00:47:24,183 --> 00:47:25,863 Speaker 3: to him, that's a challenge and saying it. 844 00:47:25,904 --> 00:47:30,024 Speaker 4: Politely and everything else and saying, hey, sir, this particular 845 00:47:30,104 --> 00:47:33,623 Speaker 4: policy virus is not working, but this one could. What 846 00:47:33,743 --> 00:47:37,743 Speaker 4: do you think sort of thing is not possible right now? 847 00:47:37,904 --> 00:47:40,024 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you've been out now for how long? 848 00:47:40,064 --> 00:47:40,944 Speaker 2: A couple of years. 849 00:47:40,743 --> 00:47:45,024 Speaker 4: Almost, I've been out for it's one year, all right, 850 00:47:45,143 --> 00:47:47,544 Speaker 4: what do you miss? I thought I would be missing 851 00:47:47,623 --> 00:47:50,983 Speaker 4: the camaraderie. But I'm not because I find that I'm 852 00:47:51,064 --> 00:47:53,823 Speaker 4: still hanging out with agency friends and things like that, 853 00:47:53,984 --> 00:47:55,504 Speaker 4: and we're still having at the time and all the 854 00:47:55,544 --> 00:47:58,744 Speaker 4: rest of this stuff. I miss driving into the building 855 00:47:58,783 --> 00:48:00,624 Speaker 4: every day by thirty nine. 856 00:48:00,544 --> 00:48:02,823 Speaker 2: Years in because you had a good parking spot, you 857 00:48:02,904 --> 00:48:05,903 Speaker 2: had a good part, you have a lot. But that's true. 858 00:48:06,464 --> 00:48:08,984 Speaker 4: Yeah, in all seriousness, I remember the first day I 859 00:48:09,064 --> 00:48:12,423 Speaker 4: had to dry You guys were rich too. They tell you, okay, 860 00:48:12,504 --> 00:48:14,904 Speaker 4: you gotta go down one twenty three, and then you 861 00:48:14,984 --> 00:48:16,424 Speaker 4: got to do this and that, and then you go 862 00:48:16,904 --> 00:48:20,223 Speaker 4: here and there. And I was like terrified about even 863 00:48:20,304 --> 00:48:24,143 Speaker 4: just driving in there, right, And I go in and 864 00:48:24,263 --> 00:48:26,703 Speaker 4: they had told us a certain place to park us 865 00:48:26,783 --> 00:48:29,464 Speaker 4: new cts, you know, and all the rest of the 866 00:48:29,504 --> 00:48:33,303 Speaker 4: stiff trainee yeah, career trainee if new officers, and we're 867 00:48:33,344 --> 00:48:34,864 Speaker 4: going to get badged, and then we were going to 868 00:48:34,904 --> 00:48:37,703 Speaker 4: go to another facility in the next few days to 869 00:48:37,783 --> 00:48:40,944 Speaker 4: go get trained off combat. But I remember driving in 870 00:48:41,223 --> 00:48:43,263 Speaker 4: and was like I got in, I gave them my 871 00:48:43,544 --> 00:48:46,703 Speaker 4: driver's license and they they gave me a badge and 872 00:48:46,944 --> 00:48:49,703 Speaker 4: it was like, oh, this is so cool, and they 873 00:48:49,743 --> 00:48:52,944 Speaker 4: took pictures and got me an actual badge. I'm like, oh, 874 00:48:52,984 --> 00:48:55,424 Speaker 4: I actually work here. I actually work here at CNIA 875 00:48:55,904 --> 00:48:58,823 Speaker 4: every single day I went into. The very day that 876 00:48:58,984 --> 00:49:02,823 Speaker 4: I went up the last time, is was a joy. 877 00:49:03,143 --> 00:49:05,344 Speaker 4: There's ups and downs like this whole thing that we 878 00:49:05,424 --> 00:49:07,623 Speaker 4: were just talking about, but the bottom line is it 879 00:49:07,864 --> 00:49:10,343 Speaker 4: was ninety eight percent. 880 00:49:10,263 --> 00:49:13,143 Speaker 2: Up, you know, and CIA. When you walk out, you're out. 881 00:49:13,183 --> 00:49:15,064 Speaker 2: It's not like you can come back and visit or 882 00:49:15,104 --> 00:49:17,424 Speaker 2: hang out with your buds and a lot of people. 883 00:49:17,783 --> 00:49:21,784 Speaker 2: You basically walk out over the seal. Bit famous, right idea, Bobby, 884 00:49:22,263 --> 00:49:24,743 Speaker 2: did you go out like just by yourself or did 885 00:49:24,783 --> 00:49:26,623 Speaker 2: you have a whole bunch of people come with you 886 00:49:26,824 --> 00:49:28,143 Speaker 2: or what was your exit like? 887 00:49:28,743 --> 00:49:30,864 Speaker 4: So I had the retirement ceremony and then it was 888 00:49:30,904 --> 00:49:32,864 Speaker 4: about a week. It might have been a week or 889 00:49:32,864 --> 00:49:35,704 Speaker 4: two later because I was still clearing up some reports 890 00:49:35,743 --> 00:49:38,143 Speaker 4: and stuff I needed to do and some of the things. 891 00:49:38,304 --> 00:49:40,743 Speaker 4: And yeah, there was a big clap. Yeah. There was 892 00:49:40,984 --> 00:49:49,544 Speaker 4: people from counterintelligence from Europe sections and from the China 893 00:49:49,623 --> 00:49:53,863 Speaker 4: and East Asia section, and my daughter who works at 894 00:49:54,104 --> 00:49:56,663 Speaker 4: NSA was also there because she could get in with 895 00:49:56,783 --> 00:49:59,984 Speaker 4: her badge. And it was really fine. The day I 896 00:50:00,104 --> 00:50:03,464 Speaker 4: walked out, which was different than the ceremony. I walked 897 00:50:03,464 --> 00:50:05,384 Speaker 4: out with a friend of mine who was retiring on 898 00:50:05,464 --> 00:50:07,864 Speaker 4: the same day. Her name is Listagall. She's a d 899 00:50:08,504 --> 00:50:12,384 Speaker 4: and analyst, and she was in my CT class because 900 00:50:12,384 --> 00:50:15,064 Speaker 4: they had all four it was only four directorates at 901 00:50:15,104 --> 00:50:19,024 Speaker 4: the time, all four directorates in that first year of 902 00:50:19,143 --> 00:50:21,943 Speaker 4: training and then we all split off, but we became 903 00:50:22,024 --> 00:50:24,504 Speaker 4: good and so we walked out that day and everybody 904 00:50:24,623 --> 00:50:26,823 Speaker 4: was clapping, and I was thinking, Oh, I'm going to 905 00:50:26,864 --> 00:50:29,343 Speaker 4: be sad. I hope I don't cry, because Dans I'm 906 00:50:29,384 --> 00:50:33,344 Speaker 4: a Danish American hate crying. But I didn't. It was 907 00:50:33,424 --> 00:50:36,104 Speaker 4: just such a happy event. And we actually walked out 908 00:50:36,183 --> 00:50:40,024 Speaker 4: of the doors and Liza and I just spontaneously just 909 00:50:40,143 --> 00:50:44,064 Speaker 4: turned around and did high fives, and as we were 910 00:50:44,104 --> 00:50:46,984 Speaker 4: doing it, you could see everybody laughing at us that 911 00:50:47,143 --> 00:50:48,984 Speaker 4: we were doing it, and it was just great. And 912 00:50:49,024 --> 00:50:51,423 Speaker 4: then we just went out to our cars and headed out. 913 00:50:51,584 --> 00:50:52,224 Speaker 4: It was great. 914 00:50:52,663 --> 00:50:53,944 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're sore. 915 00:50:54,064 --> 00:50:56,383 Speaker 3: You are married to an actual State Department. 916 00:50:56,064 --> 00:50:57,704 Speaker 4: Officer, a real State Department officer. 917 00:50:57,824 --> 00:51:00,863 Speaker 3: Yeah, overseas and places you were or sometimes different places. Yeah, 918 00:51:01,544 --> 00:51:03,503 Speaker 3: what's the difference. What was his view of his career 919 00:51:03,584 --> 00:51:05,024 Speaker 3: Was it any different from years did he have the 920 00:51:05,064 --> 00:51:07,663 Speaker 3: same sort of positive views of state department. 921 00:51:07,384 --> 00:51:09,464 Speaker 4: Or he did. He also, there's always ups and downs 922 00:51:09,864 --> 00:51:12,384 Speaker 4: and all the rest of this stuff. Yeah, if you'll remember, 923 00:51:12,464 --> 00:51:15,904 Speaker 4: I met him in Poland my second tour and he 924 00:51:16,104 --> 00:51:19,743 Speaker 4: was a first tour consular officer at the time. And 925 00:51:20,384 --> 00:51:23,743 Speaker 4: I got together with him because his car got stolen 926 00:51:24,424 --> 00:51:26,944 Speaker 4: by a Belarussian car thief, which was happening because the 927 00:51:27,064 --> 00:51:29,703 Speaker 4: Soviet Union while we were in Poland sell a part basically, 928 00:51:30,464 --> 00:51:34,223 Speaker 4: so I said to him, I said, well, are they 929 00:51:34,263 --> 00:51:36,663 Speaker 4: going to find your car at this party? And he 930 00:51:36,864 --> 00:51:39,104 Speaker 4: goes and they said no, and I lost my favorite 931 00:51:39,464 --> 00:51:41,663 Speaker 4: leather jacket in it. And the worst part is I 932 00:51:41,703 --> 00:51:45,743 Speaker 4: have to take the bus, and the Polish buses are 933 00:51:45,824 --> 00:51:48,983 Speaker 4: full of people who still don't use deodorant. In fact, 934 00:51:49,183 --> 00:51:51,783 Speaker 4: I'm going up to aid right now and I'm going 935 00:51:51,864 --> 00:51:55,223 Speaker 4: to tell him get deodorant on the street here. And 936 00:51:55,703 --> 00:51:57,983 Speaker 4: I was laughing and I said where do you live 937 00:51:58,064 --> 00:52:00,024 Speaker 4: and he told me and I said, that's right on 938 00:52:00,104 --> 00:52:03,263 Speaker 4: my way to work. And we were married six months later. 939 00:52:03,464 --> 00:52:07,623 Speaker 4: I'll I'll set you up and we literally on December eleventh, 940 00:52:07,864 --> 00:52:11,303 Speaker 4: which is our wedding date, we toast the Belarusian car 941 00:52:11,384 --> 00:52:14,663 Speaker 4: thief every year. You never found his car, never found 942 00:52:14,703 --> 00:52:14,984 Speaker 4: his car. 943 00:52:15,223 --> 00:52:17,623 Speaker 3: It's probably still going. They're probably still driving around someone. 944 00:52:17,743 --> 00:52:20,424 Speaker 4: Yeah, probably now it's probably on Siberia somewhere. 945 00:52:21,143 --> 00:52:23,663 Speaker 2: I was in Berlin when the during the Kosovo war 946 00:52:23,743 --> 00:52:26,703 Speaker 2: and it just afterwards. There was actually a show on 947 00:52:26,864 --> 00:52:30,303 Speaker 2: TV in Germany like where's your car? And they would 948 00:52:30,384 --> 00:52:33,224 Speaker 2: call somebody up and they say where's your like where's 949 00:52:33,263 --> 00:52:35,624 Speaker 2: your car? Huh? And he's yeah, we have a picture 950 00:52:35,663 --> 00:52:39,104 Speaker 2: of it just crossing into Kosovo. Now they stole it 951 00:52:39,183 --> 00:52:41,544 Speaker 2: the night before. And then one of the people in 952 00:52:41,623 --> 00:52:45,343 Speaker 2: the station that you know, Susie, she lost her car. 953 00:52:45,464 --> 00:52:48,823 Speaker 2: She had random VMW and next thing you know, they 954 00:52:48,824 --> 00:52:51,143 Speaker 2: had a picture of it driving into Kosovo. 955 00:52:51,304 --> 00:52:53,344 Speaker 3: There used to be a billboard going into Albania for 956 00:52:53,384 --> 00:52:55,263 Speaker 3: a while that had a big picture said it was 957 00:52:55,304 --> 00:52:58,743 Speaker 3: like a tourist, you know, visit Albania. You know your 958 00:52:58,824 --> 00:53:03,024 Speaker 3: car's already here is my favorite human rights abusers. 959 00:53:03,183 --> 00:53:05,903 Speaker 2: Yeah, So what are you gonna do with retirement? People 960 00:53:05,984 --> 00:53:08,423 Speaker 2: ask this of us a lot. You have this job, 961 00:53:08,623 --> 00:53:13,343 Speaker 2: it's full of adrenaline and mission driven, and you were 962 00:53:13,384 --> 00:53:16,223 Speaker 2: in these senior positions, So what are you gonna what 963 00:53:16,304 --> 00:53:17,944 Speaker 2: are you gonna do with your life now and your 964 00:53:18,024 --> 00:53:20,584 Speaker 2: talents and your drive and everything like that. What do 965 00:53:20,703 --> 00:53:21,223 Speaker 2: you know yet? 966 00:53:21,304 --> 00:53:24,943 Speaker 4: Or yes, I already have some training gigs I'm doing 967 00:53:25,464 --> 00:53:27,743 Speaker 4: and it's intermittent and I'm not doing anything full time. 968 00:53:28,344 --> 00:53:31,384 Speaker 4: What I've really been enjoying since retirement. Last year is 969 00:53:31,703 --> 00:53:35,384 Speaker 4: last calendar year in twenty twenty four. My husband, and 970 00:53:35,623 --> 00:53:38,584 Speaker 4: it's only men who come up with these ideas, says 971 00:53:38,663 --> 00:53:41,584 Speaker 4: to me, Hey, sissy, you know what I want to 972 00:53:41,663 --> 00:53:44,263 Speaker 4: do in twenty twenty four? What he goes, I want 973 00:53:44,304 --> 00:53:47,783 Speaker 4: to go visit all seven continents. So we visited all 974 00:53:47,824 --> 00:53:51,544 Speaker 4: seven continents. We're related to travel this year and next 975 00:53:51,663 --> 00:53:55,024 Speaker 4: year we are visiting every baseball stadium to see a game. 976 00:53:55,504 --> 00:53:57,864 Speaker 4: And we've also got some other just travel with some 977 00:53:58,024 --> 00:54:02,864 Speaker 4: friends coming up. So we've really been enjoying ourselves doing that. 978 00:54:03,104 --> 00:54:05,584 Speaker 4: And in in between these intermittent gigs, that's good. 979 00:54:05,623 --> 00:54:08,064 Speaker 3: You should travel because it's not gonna be long before 980 00:54:08,104 --> 00:54:11,183 Speaker 3: they pull your security class pulled ours? Did They didn't 981 00:54:11,223 --> 00:54:14,943 Speaker 3: have one, but yeah, jumped at a executive orders first 982 00:54:15,024 --> 00:54:19,143 Speaker 3: day in right, So I didn't have one, but went either, 983 00:54:19,223 --> 00:54:19,783 Speaker 3: but he pulled it. 984 00:54:20,263 --> 00:54:21,024 Speaker 2: If it existed. 985 00:54:21,183 --> 00:54:22,944 Speaker 3: It was big money and podcasting if you want to 986 00:54:22,944 --> 00:54:23,303 Speaker 3: get into that. 987 00:54:23,464 --> 00:54:25,904 Speaker 4: Yeah, hundred hundred dollars. 988 00:54:26,304 --> 00:54:31,823 Speaker 2: So the agency falls into two categories, Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks. 989 00:54:32,424 --> 00:54:34,584 Speaker 2: Which did you go to when you were in the agency? 990 00:54:35,783 --> 00:54:39,703 Speaker 4: Starbucks, Oh, I knew there was something wrong with their job. 991 00:54:39,944 --> 00:54:46,143 Speaker 4: Idiots did the dunkin donu So it's all about you 992 00:54:46,183 --> 00:54:47,183 Speaker 4: guys being rich. 993 00:54:50,623 --> 00:54:51,743 Speaker 2: A Dunkin Doughnuts guy. 994 00:54:52,104 --> 00:54:54,823 Speaker 3: But usually most offices had like a coffee maker. We did, 995 00:54:55,384 --> 00:54:57,263 Speaker 3: and nobody actually wanted to clean. So it had like 996 00:54:57,344 --> 00:55:01,183 Speaker 3: a brow burned into the bottom of or something, and. 997 00:55:01,183 --> 00:55:04,343 Speaker 4: They were always post its notes next the wall next 998 00:55:04,384 --> 00:55:06,983 Speaker 4: to the coffee maker. We mean it clean it out 999 00:55:07,464 --> 00:55:11,104 Speaker 4: if you started to to do the last one and 1000 00:55:11,223 --> 00:55:12,424 Speaker 4: nobody ever listening that. 1001 00:55:12,904 --> 00:55:15,783 Speaker 3: You mentioned Moscow and like for example for people don't 1002 00:55:15,904 --> 00:55:19,224 Speaker 3: follow us it. Our office in Moscow obviously was very sensitive, 1003 00:55:19,263 --> 00:55:22,263 Speaker 3: very secure, locked up. None of the locals could come 1004 00:55:22,304 --> 00:55:24,343 Speaker 3: in there, and so it means we had to clean 1005 00:55:24,384 --> 00:55:26,864 Speaker 3: our own stuff, which means we had a bathroom in 1006 00:55:26,944 --> 00:55:29,984 Speaker 3: there and we had to what a rotating thing that 1007 00:55:30,344 --> 00:55:33,263 Speaker 3: the people in the office had to do the vacuuming 1008 00:55:33,584 --> 00:55:36,623 Speaker 3: and the cleaning and cleaning the bathroom to include the 1009 00:55:36,703 --> 00:55:39,303 Speaker 3: chief So Mike Sulick was the chief when I was there, 1010 00:55:39,663 --> 00:55:41,944 Speaker 3: and we had these fancy, super secret cameras where we 1011 00:55:41,944 --> 00:55:43,863 Speaker 3: get his little wire he could put in, So every 1012 00:55:43,904 --> 00:55:46,143 Speaker 3: time sulic would clean the bathroom, we would run this 1013 00:55:46,263 --> 00:55:48,263 Speaker 3: wire in there and we would watch it on a 1014 00:55:48,384 --> 00:55:50,783 Speaker 3: video set in the office of him like kneel and 1015 00:55:50,864 --> 00:55:55,144 Speaker 3: Donald with his butt, and I can say he senior officer, 1016 00:55:55,223 --> 00:55:56,384 Speaker 3: but he did clean those toilets. 1017 00:55:56,663 --> 00:55:59,343 Speaker 4: Of all the bosses that we all worked for, that's 1018 00:55:59,384 --> 00:56:02,104 Speaker 4: the one they said one of them would actually clean toilets. 1019 00:56:02,143 --> 00:56:05,064 Speaker 4: That's the one I would do because he was so humble. 1020 00:56:05,504 --> 00:56:07,343 Speaker 4: He still Yeah, he's such a great guy. 1021 00:56:07,504 --> 00:56:10,064 Speaker 2: The James Bond movies never have the ball cleaning the 1022 00:56:10,143 --> 00:56:11,303 Speaker 2: toilet or It. 1023 00:56:11,384 --> 00:56:13,544 Speaker 3: Was a real pleasure to talk to you, and I 1024 00:56:13,623 --> 00:56:15,703 Speaker 3: want to say, you know, please keep yourself safe. You're 1025 00:56:15,703 --> 00:56:17,903 Speaker 3: speaking truth to power, and in this day and age, 1026 00:56:17,944 --> 00:56:20,384 Speaker 3: that can be a dangerous thing. But we respect that 1027 00:56:20,464 --> 00:56:23,064 Speaker 3: and appreciate it. So thanks for spending so much time 1028 00:56:23,104 --> 00:56:24,383 Speaker 3: with us, and I hope we can do it again 1029 00:56:24,544 --> 00:56:25,064 Speaker 3: for too long. 1030 00:56:25,143 --> 00:56:26,504 Speaker 4: Thank you very much, you guys. 1031 00:56:26,984 --> 00:56:31,984 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 1032 00:56:32,344 --> 00:56:37,383 Speaker 1: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission implausible. 1033 00:56:37,424 --> 00:56:40,904 Speaker 1: It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for 1034 00:56:41,064 --> 00:56:42,183 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts.