1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: From the dark corners of the web. An emerging mindset. 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 2: I am a loser if also women know wouldn't pay 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 2: me either. 4 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 3: A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at 5 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 3: a deadly tipping point. 6 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 4: In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide. 7 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 5: I see literally zero hope. 8 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: This is in Cells a production of kt Studios and 9 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts, Season one, Episode nine, Looks Maxing. 10 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 3: I've written about leg lengthening, surgery, penis enlargements, and they're 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 3: all about men. 12 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 6: As soon as you do that and you start to 13 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 6: look for a perpetrator for a lot of men in 14 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 6: the lopsmaxing community, that enemy has become women. 15 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 3: It's a kind of story about insecure young people probably 16 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 3: not finding the best places to look in the mirror. 17 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: Online I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KATI Studios with 18 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Christia Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. Online 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: self improvement is everywhere, jawlines, cheekbones, hunter eyes, routines and 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: recipes to fix a face, routines to fix a life. 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,839 Speaker 1: We follow how looks Maxing, a push to optimize your appearance, 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: intersects with insul forums nihilistic beliefs and a new transphobic 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: trope called transmaxing. Investigative journalist Connor Powell speaks to Rupert 24 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: Small's CEO of Egregious, it's a UK startup that specializes 25 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:39,559 Speaker 1: in understanding social issues online. He also recently co authored 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: a paper on looks maxing and radicalization pathways. We ask 27 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: Rupert to start by describing the word looks maxing. 28 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 6: It's kind of a belief that you know, there are 29 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 6: various different ways and methods to maximize your physical appearance 30 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 6: as a kind of methodology and a set of recipes, 31 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 6: and if you follow them you can try and maximize 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 6: how good you look physically objectively and through improving their looks, 33 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 6: the believers that they'll improve their life in some way. 34 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: Connor also spoke with Simon Osborne, a freelance features writer 35 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: based out of London, for a different perspective. Simon often 36 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: writes for The Guardian, and we asked how he first 37 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: came across looks maxing. 38 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 3: I'll be honest, it was new to me, but my 39 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 3: editor at The Guardian, who I wrote this story for, 40 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 3: has teenage sons and he had heard about it, I 41 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 3: think via their online lives looks maxing is in a way, 42 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 3: it's quite simple. It's generally young men online swapping ideas 43 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 3: for how to improve how they look, mainly focusing on 44 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 3: their facial aesthetics, but also their bodies. And it's a 45 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 3: kind of hyper masculine version of what these guys think 46 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 3: they should look like for their own, I guess, sense 47 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 3: of security and also to attract the opposite sex. And 48 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 3: when we look at the face looks maxing means hardening 49 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 3: the jawline. It values things like hunter eyes, which are 50 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 3: kind of eyes that points slightly downwards towards the nose. 51 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 3: You know, strong foreheads, basically a sort of very masculine, 52 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 3: strong man kind of look. 53 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 5: Does it also going to the sort of traditional male 54 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 5: desire to be strong and fit as well, or is 55 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 5: it generally sort of this facial feature. 56 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 3: It's very much sort of focused on the face, and 57 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 3: a big part of it is swapping pictures of your 58 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 3: own face for often quite harsh criticism within a community 59 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 3: that might be a forum or a reddit or It 60 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 3: all started a long time ago, I think, on four Chan, 61 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 3: and then it's become very big on TikTok more recently. 62 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 3: But I think it goes hand in hand with a 63 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 3: sort of general masculine look that promotes a muscular physique. 64 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: Simon's mention of harsh critics wasn't the first time we'd 65 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: heard that. In fact, it seems almost a tenant of 66 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: a lot of the online looks maxing communities. Here's a 67 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: clip from First at five CTV News, followed by Connor 68 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: and social scientist Rupert Small's. 69 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 4: It's a term you may have never heard before, looks maxing. 70 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 7: So it looks like it's a community where you are 71 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 7: going to maybe pick up some tips for living a 72 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 7: healthier life, maybe modifying your appearance in some way. And instead, 73 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 7: what many people are getting is, you know, if you 74 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 7: can't hit these benchmarks, then you should really consider self harm. 75 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: Clearly, any approach that encourages someone to harm themselves is 76 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: deeply concerning, But we wanted to know on a broader 77 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: level how Rupert sees the idea of looks maxing. 78 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 6: I think there's never anything wrong with the kind of 79 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 6: high level objectives that are there to kind of ambitiously 80 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 6: achieve a goal. I think what sometimes can go wrong 81 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 6: is the roote we take to achieve that goal. So 82 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 6: it's almost like that I robot situation from the famous 83 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 6: film with Will Smith, where the robots are told to 84 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 6: protect humanity, and actually in order to protect humanity, they 85 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 6: figure out that if they lock us all up, we're 86 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 6: going to be safe because you just can't be trusted. 87 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 6: So I think it's a bit like that. But I 88 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 6: think what you also see, which is a bit more worrying, 89 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 6: is that people are exploiting men. They're trying to monetize 90 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 6: the situation, and that's when things can go bad. 91 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 5: So Looks Maxine to me is it has a parallel 92 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 5: just in the traditional female natural beauty genre, right, which 93 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 5: is like press implants LiPo. But I think what we're 94 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 5: seeing online specifically is a recruitment to a much more 95 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 5: darker world with young men. Can you walk me through 96 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 5: sort of what you're seeing and what your research points to. 97 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 6: Say there's a parallel there. But where it does take 98 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 6: a darker turn for the Looks max In community is 99 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 6: when that starts to to maybe ideologies around the in 100 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 6: cell community, And that's actually an interesting kind of difference 101 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 6: between the two, and that you know, some of the 102 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 6: looks the men in the Loo Maxing community are being 103 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 6: diverted or kind of radicalized in a way to see 104 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 6: it as a grievance issue rather than a way to 105 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 6: discover their best selves. It's become a manifestation of a 106 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 6: lot of ill will and a kind of a contest 107 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 6: between men and women, and that has meant that, you know, 108 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 6: some of the men getting involved with that community have 109 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 6: started to exhibit violent behaviors towards women and girls, et cetera, 110 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 6: et cetera, which is not something you see so much 111 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 6: in the other direction. 112 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: Rupert points out that for some looks maxing begins in 113 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: a positive way, it may inspire better diet and nutrition. However, 114 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: he warrants that same motivation can easily start to shift. 115 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 6: I think there's a thread to the story which got 116 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 6: metastasized to extent and started to become exploited for ill 117 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 6: and monetized, I should say, where it became a thing 118 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 6: of more mewing and bone smashing, and you know, things 119 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 6: came out of it which were quite overtly harmful for 120 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 6: the body. And once that started happening and people started 121 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 6: to try and I think maybe over monetize vulnerable individuals, 122 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 6: that's where you started to see indications that there was 123 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,679 Speaker 6: at least a branch of that community which was leading 124 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 6: people astray. 125 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: Mewing, as Rubert mentioned, is something that's become very popular. 126 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: The hashtag mewing has accumulated over a billion views on TikTok, 127 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: with millions of videos created on the topic. Here's a 128 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: quick explanation of what it is. 129 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 8: This one is called mewing, Okay, not meowing, mewing. Mewing's 130 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 8: been around for a while. It's this exercise where you 131 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 8: put your tongue to the roof of your mouth and 132 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 8: you swallow, and it's supposed to like strengthen and accentuate 133 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 8: your jawline and get rid of the double chain if 134 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 8: you have one. So the action of mewing has started 135 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 8: to trend and has been trending on TikTok. People were 136 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 8: teaching you, like, how do you get ready to double chane? 137 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 9: All that good. 138 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: Stuff here again, Connor and Rupert. 139 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 5: What's the discussion around looks maxing within in cell forms. 140 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 6: As these techniques became more and more punitive, as they 141 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 6: became more difficult to achieve, or as they involved more 142 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 6: and more self harm, for example, bone smashing, which involves 143 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 6: hammering your jaw. I think that that kind of advice. 144 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 6: When you're receiving it from a community you trust and 145 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 6: leave in, you can start to get almost traumatized by it. 146 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 6: And as soon as you start suffering, the question becomes 147 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 6: as an individual, who's to blame for my suffering? They're 148 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 6: feeling alienated, they're trying to improve their situation, but they 149 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 6: realize by doing so, it's actually causing them to suffer, 150 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 6: and so they're looking for who the perpetrator is. And 151 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 6: as soon as you do that, and you start to 152 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 6: look for a perpetrator and adversary of some form. Unfortunately, 153 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 6: what has come out of that scenario is that for 154 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 6: a lot of men in the lux maxing community, that 155 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 6: enemy has become women. And so there is a kind 156 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 6: of branch of the loux max community that has led 157 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 6: quite naturally into the in cell community where women are 158 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 6: blamed for this situation they applied for all of the 159 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,599 Speaker 6: difficulties that they're experiencing. 160 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: We've heard from Luis before, he's a self identified black 161 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: pilled in cell. In this conversation, he helps us trace 162 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: how these online communities have evolved and how an obsession 163 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: with looks has been part of that story from the 164 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: very beginning. Now many of the same ideas are resurfacing 165 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: under new banner framed as self improvement. 166 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 2: Let me actually give you, like the entire history of insuls. 167 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: It's going to be very quick, so ironically, the original 168 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: in cell community started by a woman, a lesbian woman 169 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: from Carlton University in Canada. It's called Alana's Involuntary Celibate Project. 170 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 2: Who was the community for people who couldn't find love. 171 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 2: And it was very inclusive, right, it wasn't just mail. 172 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 2: And then you had other forums like love Shy, in 173 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: cell support, but really, really, really the modern iteration of 174 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: the incels that we all know that I'm a part of, right, 175 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 2: the black pill and lookism and whatnot. And PSL started 176 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 2: on a forum called PWA Hate. Pwayete dot com was 177 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: created in two thousand and nine by a former pickup 178 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: artist called Nicolaus. They had one section called Shitty Advice. 179 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 2: And I don't know how, I don't know why, but 180 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: they started talking about the importance of your looks. If 181 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 2: you want to be a pickup artist, you have to 182 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: be good looking. They came up with looks theory midphace theory. 183 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 2: They would recommend each other's surgeries. 184 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: Luis mentioned PSL. PSL is an acronym from three early 185 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: in cell websites, pu Hate, slut hate, and lookism dot net. 186 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: It's a ranking system many in cells subscribe to and 187 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: some upset. It ranks men's attractiveness from one to eight. 188 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: Luis continues, it's pretty funny. 189 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: But after that they created slut hate the promiscuous a 190 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: term for a promiscuous women, right, slut hate dot com. 191 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,719 Speaker 2: And yeah, same thing. They would just talk about, looks 192 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 2: how pickup artists suck, how women suck, how normy suck. That. 193 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: In twenty eighteen they created loukism dot net. So that's 194 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: really the trifecta. That's where PSL comes from, PA Hate, 195 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 2: slut Hate, loukism dot net. Right now, it's just Insul's 196 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: and looksmax dot org, which came after lucism dot net. 197 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 2: It used to be known as lucism dot me. No, 198 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 2: looks max dot me. Now it's looksmax dot org. And 199 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 2: that's really the history of the insull forums. 200 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 201 00:11:52,360 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: a moment. Connor continues his discussion with journalist Simon Osborne, 202 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: asking how he've used looksmaxing intersecting with pop culture in 203 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: general and in cell communities in particular. 204 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 3: There was a kind of almost a split where there 205 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 3: was quite a lot of stuff on TikTok which often 206 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 3: wasn't particularly dark in nature. A lot of it was 207 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 3: just often very insecure teenage boys and young men trying 208 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 3: to find ways to kind of fulfill this look. But 209 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 3: I think one of the reasons it's caught the attention 210 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 3: is that it does have a darker side, and it 211 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 3: started in a fairly dark place, and there is or 212 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 3: there having concerns that is sort of springing from in 213 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 3: cell culture, and that a lot of the men who 214 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 3: are very harshly criticizing off an insecure young men on 215 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 3: this site are also you know, misogynistic. There's been a 216 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 3: lot of recent discussion about racism in lux maxing. There 217 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 3: was a young black journalist in the US who I 218 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 3: think path jokingly tried to become the first black Looks 219 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 3: Maxer because it seemed to him to be a very 220 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 3: white pursuit, and then was very swiftly bombarded with racist 221 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 3: abuse on social media. 222 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 5: And one of the people you profiled is cream Shami. 223 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 9: Yes, well, what did. 224 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 5: You find out about him? And what's his role in this. 225 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 3: He's a very interesting figure in that he kind of 226 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 3: lived the life and then became a big influencer in 227 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 3: the lux maxing world. When I spoke to me, he 228 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 3: was twenty two. He had emigrated with his family from 229 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 3: Syria as a youngster from the war there and settled 230 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 3: in the US, and he had kind of done the 231 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: looks Maxing thing himself and had really changed his look 232 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: quite dramatically and had a lot of the sort of 233 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 3: holy Grail features of a looks maxed person, with the 234 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 3: cheekbones and the strong jaw and all the rest of it, 235 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 3: and very good skin. Skin is another part of this. 236 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 3: And then he started to kind of chart his own 237 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 3: journey on TikTok and it kind of took off in 238 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 3: a big way. 239 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: Kareem Shami, the self proclaimed godfather of looks Maxing, has 240 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: over two point five million followers on social media. He's 241 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: the founder of Ascend Laboratories, which provides esthetic enhancement coaching. 242 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: He ties together male self improvement, visual identity and influencer commerce. 243 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: Here again Simon speaking about Kareem Shami, But. 244 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 3: I also get the sense that he was slightly conflicted, 245 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 3: because you know, His profile picture on TikTok at the 246 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 3: time was Patrick Bateman from American Psycho, and that to 247 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 3: me sort of aligned with a lot of the concerns 248 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 3: people were expressing about misogyny and hypermasculinity and how Looks 249 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 3: Maxing was all part of that. He said that it 250 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 3: was just because he liked some of the way that 251 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 3: that character looked and didn't really align with his worldview 252 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 3: or his view of women. One particular video he posted 253 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 3: of his transformation, he had really taken off as a 254 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 3: kind of big figure on TikTok under the name Syrian Psycho. 255 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 3: That was what his user name is. 256 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 5: I was looking at Looks Maxine first because there was 257 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 5: an obvious connection to Intel community. Those that are trying 258 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 5: to sort of become the things that they hate to 259 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 5: attract the women that they're frustrated with. And then there 260 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 5: are those that just sort of accept beliefs, which is 261 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 5: sort of like you're never going to have a relationship, 262 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 5: You're always going to be ugly and miserable and just 263 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 5: use that rage, live off that rage. How did you 264 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 5: find Looks Maxine within the Intel community? 265 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 3: That's sort of the word rep zen, a community of 266 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 3: people that is bigger than any sort of one element, 267 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 3: and so as far as there is an inceell overlap, 268 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 3: I think there is also a side of it that's 269 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 3: more just about people just being kind of bitchy and 270 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 3: mean at each other in a way that maybe we 271 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 3: would often sort of traditionally associate with young women. And 272 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 3: I think part of this is that young men are 273 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 3: increasingly subject to the same insecurities and harsh lenses as 274 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 3: women and girls have traditionally been. Really, it's a kind 275 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 3: of story about insecure young people probably not finding the 276 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 3: best places to look in the mirror online. 277 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: In fact, studies show that online feedback in the vast 278 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: majority of these forums is overwhelmingly negative. 279 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 4: And you're report by dell Housie University saw researchers come 280 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 4: through thousands of comments on a discussion board of an 281 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 4: online community that receives six million unique visitors a month. 282 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 10: Many of the people participating in these communities are young, 283 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 10: so they're boys who are thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, the university students, 284 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,719 Speaker 10: they're surprisingly young. We saw no one get universal praise. 285 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 10: We saw everybody get insults, and predominantly people are told 286 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 10: that they're considerably ugly or unattractive. 287 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 3: My bigger concern was that really it was you know, 288 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 3: people who were already worried about their facial features putting 289 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 3: pictures in themselves in you know, TikTok or Reddit and 290 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 3: getting quite a lot of criticism and then just ending 291 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 3: up feeling worse about themselves and maybe resorting to questionable, 292 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 3: time consuming, uncomfortable processes like mewing to strengthen their faces, 293 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 3: or in the case of the guy I spoke to, 294 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 3: you know, seriously considering paying ten thousand pounds to have 295 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 3: surgery and to extend his chin. 296 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 5: If we're sort of stepping back, do you think it's 297 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 5: terribly different than what we're seeing with just women in general. 298 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 3: No, I don't, And I think that's a good point. 299 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 3: And for some reason I sort of seem to have 300 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 3: developed a kind of mini specialism at the Guardian because 301 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 3: they keep asking me to write about male esthetic surgery. 302 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 3: I've written about hair transplants and tooth surgery and chin implants. 303 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 3: With this, I've written about leg lengthening surgery, penis enlargements, 304 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 3: and then they're all about men. It's the same motivations, 305 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,239 Speaker 3: the same people, and the same kind of pressures on 306 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 3: them and it's young men, yeah, feeling insecure and then 307 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:35,719 Speaker 3: having that insecurity fueled by online communities. And then because 308 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 3: the demand is they're finding the outlets via searches online 309 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 3: to get solutions to their problems in extremely competitive online marketplaces, 310 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 3: which often lead them to cut price and dodgy actors. 311 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 3: I'm thinking of transplant surgeons charging a fraction of what 312 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 3: you would pay in a reputable clinic. 313 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: Some men have sought out corrective surgeries, such as chin 314 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: lengthening or jaw repositioning. These are done to achieve a 315 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: more angular projected chin and jawline. Limb lengthening is another 316 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: area of surgery which is used to increase height. 317 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 3: And then you end up with the nightmare stories of 318 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 3: men and young men finding that they're deeply distressed with 319 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 3: the process and the results because they've often paid very 320 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 3: low amounts for this sort of surgery. Often, these surgeons 321 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 3: and these markets are ones that have existed for a 322 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 3: long time because of the demand from women, and now 323 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 3: there is the demand from men, and one you know, 324 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 3: on the one hand, women might I think we'll welcome 325 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 3: to our world. This is what it's like. The pressure 326 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 3: is to look certain ways, but then you know, the 327 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 3: other way of looking at is that it's the worst 328 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 3: sort of equality, because we should be addressing the sort 329 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 3: of drivers for these insecurities and kind of trying to 330 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 3: make people more common, whether they're male or female, because 331 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 3: it's a pretty sorry trade. And even when you speak 332 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 3: to people who've had surgery and chin surgery in the 333 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 3: case of looks Maxing, you know, they often say it's 334 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 3: changed my life. I feel like a new person. It's amazing. 335 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 3: But even they often say I wish I didn't have 336 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 3: to go through all this to get to that place. 337 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: We wanted to understand how far this can go. Rubert 338 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: Small's unpacks the overlap between looks Maxing in cells and 339 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 1: potential violence. We note again that the rate of actual 340 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: physical violence based on in cell ideology is very low. 341 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 1: Here's Rupert. 342 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 6: We're seeing a lot of let's say, co correlations between 343 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 6: that community and in cell communities and communities even in 344 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 6: the kind of the mashooter communities and who kind of 345 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 6: lionize and celebrate mass shooting and violence towards women. So 346 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 6: it's hard to make a a direct link and say that, 347 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 6: you know, because this person, let's say Elliott Roger, for example, 348 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 6: Even if we can't directly attribute Looks Maxing to Elliott Roger, 349 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 6: we can say that there's a lot of overlap in 350 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 6: those communities. They share similar content, they share memes, they 351 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 6: share members, they share symbols and meaning together, and they 352 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 6: develop that they kind of co develop that meaning. So 353 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 6: that's as much as we can say to date, and 354 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 6: just because of the kind of tight relationship between those communities, 355 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 6: we can say at the very least that they are 356 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 6: influential to each other. Just as scientists, we don't want 357 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 6: to directly attribute violence to a specific meme, more specific post. 358 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 5: You can see, as you say, there's the victimization, there's 359 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 5: the what am I getting? How the self harm? You 360 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 5: can see this sort of path to self destruction. 361 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 6: Really, yeah, people are looking for an exit out of 362 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 6: their current situation. I think in a lot of this, 363 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 6: and like you say, sometimes that's going to manifest in 364 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 6: self harm for the purposes of looks Maxing. Sometimes actually 365 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 6: people just doing self harm to exit in another way, 366 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 6: like psychologically exit the situation because self harm distracts them 367 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 6: from another pain somewhere else. And if you're in a 368 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 6: position of as I think a lot of in cells 369 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 6: are in a lot of you know, members of the 370 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 6: looks Maxing community, they're in a position of really really 371 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 6: needing support to help them get themselves out of what 372 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 6: they experience as a really painful situation. Ultimately, it's all 373 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 6: born of a form of desperation to get out of 374 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 6: what is a very difficult situation. 375 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 5: You mentioned that you looked at the algorithm and the 376 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 5: sort of adjacent words, and how does the blackpill fit 377 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 5: into looks Maxing from what you can tell. 378 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 6: I guess maybe the reason you're asking this question is 379 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 6: that you might see looks Maxing as an innately hopeful 380 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 6: ideology or belief system where you know, if you do 381 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 6: something regularly, if you're persistent about it, if you put 382 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 6: work in, you'll be able to look better and that's 383 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 6: going to help improve your life. I think the answer 384 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 6: to that again like, what is the link between luks 385 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 6: Maxing and black Pile? Again, it's a past dependent state. 386 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: To better understand how these ideas take root in real life, 387 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: we spoke with a man who goes by mister East. 388 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: He's a self described black pilt in Cel Mysteries. Explains 389 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: how these beliefs shape the way he sees dating success 390 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: and the world around him. 391 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 11: Certain traits you have, such as looks, wealth, they make 392 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 11: it more likely for you to succeed within a certain context. 393 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 11: Dating romantically, I just recognize that despite what popular consensus 394 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 11: believes about so called romantic and like just general success 395 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 11: within like socializing in general, it does really heavily depend 396 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 11: on your looks and your ability to socialize. However, for 397 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 11: some people that might not work because of their ethnicity, 398 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 11: because of their looks, because of their might. No matter what, 399 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 11: a lot of the stuff that they learn might not work. 400 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 11: The general consensus within societies that be nice, be respectful, 401 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 11: you will succeed. This is like the biggest contradiction despite 402 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 11: what society tells you, the nice guy never wins in 403 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 11: this case, well, unless you're handsome and good looking, which 404 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 11: I guess explains why good looking people don't understand the 405 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 11: struggles that people who maybe are nice but don't have 406 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 11: the looks to attract people. 407 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: May think, let's stop here for another break. We'll be 408 00:24:39,119 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: back in a moment. Rupert continues explaining the complexity of 409 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: how different threads within these communities can lead in very 410 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: different directions, from self improvement to something far more nefarious. 411 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 6: I think people have recognized that have kind of gained 412 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 6: that and that's why you often see you know, the 413 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 6: Blackpool hashtag mentioned together in in posts with looks Maxing 414 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 6: hashtags is because there's you know, some creators have recognized 415 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 6: that overlap and they can grab attention and they can 416 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 6: take members from that one community by just putting those 417 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 6: hashtags together. If you were looking at it more from 418 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 6: the radicalization side of things, like radicalization pathways, I would 419 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 6: say there are many different threads and pathways through looks maxing, 420 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 6: Like tox maxing is kind of one of the resting 421 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 6: points or the waypoints along the way for what could 422 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 6: be very a wide range of radicalization situations. Some would 423 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 6: lead to self harmed, some would lead to violence against women, 424 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 6: et cetera, et cetera. And the fact that there are 425 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 6: many paths which cross looks maxing and then ultimately go 426 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 6: elsewhere makes this a very complex situation to describe to people. 427 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 5: Is it a phrase that you see growing? 428 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 6: We drew in more than eighty thousand videos from over 429 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 6: forty thousand users on a social media platform. This very 430 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 6: clear connection between Elliott Roger fandom, Elliott Roger being a shooter. 431 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 6: UK born American shooter. He killed six people injured fourteen 432 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 6: others with a mixture of you know, knives and semi 433 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 6: automatic pistols. And Elliott Roger is lionized by many people 434 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 6: in the inzell and Looks Maxing communities, and he's given 435 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 6: a lot of voice and his manifesto is spoken about 436 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 6: a lot, all of which has now been laundered and 437 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 6: mixed up within these insell and looks Maxing communities. That 438 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 6: was the interesting thing to us, and that was kind 439 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 6: of what triggered our concern because it's by kind of 440 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 6: adopting that terminology that innocent people within who're just gone 441 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 6: to looks Maxing for you know, self improvement, can easily 442 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 6: start to get nudged into a much darker ideology and 443 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 6: even into you know, self harm or into violence. So 444 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 6: that was the link for us, rather than the volume 445 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 6: of posts we were seeing, although when we did look 446 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 6: we saw the very high volume of posts. 447 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 1: We wanted to take a moment to explain what transmaxing is. 448 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: Like so many of the terms we've come across in 449 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: this series. It's part of an online vocabulary that's constantly evolving. 450 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: Connor spoke with editor keysepe Lopez, who explains it's less 451 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: something happening in real life and more reflection of what's 452 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: being imagined online. 453 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 9: My name is Keyspey Lopez. 454 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 12: I'm the lifestyle editor over at Them, which is Conde 455 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 12: Nast's LGBTQ publication. 456 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 5: I've been on some of these in cell websites. It 457 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 5: almost feels as if it's not actually a real thing, 458 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 5: but it's just people sort of putting it out there 459 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 5: to make a point about how great it is to 460 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 5: be a woman and how awful it is to be 461 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 5: a man. 462 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 12: It's kind of stemming from the exact same ideology that 463 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 12: is foundational to all in cell thought, which is exactly 464 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 12: what you're speaking to. 465 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 9: It's easier to be a woman. 466 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 12: Society benefits women, so of course someone would want to 467 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 12: be a woman, and that's why trans people are actually transitioning. 468 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 9: That's the kind of backing thought to it all. 469 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 5: How would you define transmaxine for someone who's never heard 470 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 5: that term before. 471 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 12: It's basically a transphobic trope that is like often perpetuated 472 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 12: and spoken about in in cell communities that anybody would 473 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 12: transition not because of like an internal gender feeling that 474 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 12: they're having or a mismatch in their identity, but rather 475 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 12: for the social benefits of it. It basically perpetuates the 476 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 12: claim that trans women are not actually women. They're like 477 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 12: transitioning because they want to gain the social benefits quote 478 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 12: unquote of being a woman. And that is like obviously 479 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 12: rooted in transphobia and also in deep misogyny and the 480 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 12: intersection of the two. 481 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 5: When did you first see this popping up online in conversation? 482 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 12: It's something that came about in the last ten years. 483 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 12: Rather than trying to change yourself to fit a society 484 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 12: that benefits women, black pill believers don't believe they should 485 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 12: have to change themselves by looks maxing, and instead they've 486 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 12: accepted their fate as an inceell and they believe that 487 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 12: society should change instead to be more inclusive of in cells. 488 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 12: Transmaxing fits into that because it's basically like, well, some 489 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 12: in cells cannot look smax out of their fate of 490 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 12: being involuntarily celibate, so instead they should rather than trying 491 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 12: to meet this ideal standard for like being a man, 492 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 12: they should instead transition to be women because that would 493 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 12: be easier for them in society. They'll get all of 494 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 12: these like social benefits, et cetera, et cetera. 495 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: As helps us understand where transmaxing began, tracing its roots 496 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: back to a single manifesto. 497 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 12: It's basically this long rambling manifesto that's been updated twelve 498 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 12: times called the Transmaxing Manifesto. It's from the deep, deep 499 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 12: corners of in cell communities online. 500 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 9: It basically details all of the. 501 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 12: Social benefits that you know, one might have if they 502 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 12: are having, you know, not a lot of luck as 503 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 12: an inceel, want to change their faith, want to like 504 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 12: change their position in society by transitioning, And it kind 505 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 12: of outlines these really ridiculous ideas that are like you'll 506 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 12: get cheaper car insurance, you will find partnership, you'll have 507 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 12: access to dating other trans women, like all of these 508 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 12: things that are ignoring the tangible realities that come with 509 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 12: being trans in this world, such as like increased starts 510 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 12: of violence, and it kind of puts that aside and 511 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 12: it is like, actually, it'll be great and it'll fix 512 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 12: your life if you're an inceel to be a transmaxer. 513 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 9: But that's just that's. 514 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 12: The only written piece of this ideology. 515 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 5: Any idea who wrote this manifesto. 516 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 12: Like many ideologies that start in the Internet. It can 517 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 12: be hard to pin down exactly who we know the 518 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 12: user name. 519 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 9: It's someone who is. 520 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 12: Called bontology, and it's basically been updated a bunch of times. 521 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 12: It exists on these Internet archives and deep Threddit threads 522 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 12: as well as four Chune. 523 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 5: Anytimes you want to add that I didn't ask you, 524 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 5: or point you want to make that I didn't ask 525 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 5: you on, I think. 526 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 12: I just want to emphasize that transmaxers aren't a threat 527 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 12: to your daily life. They don't exist as a movement, 528 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 12: and I think that speaking about them in conversation with 529 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 12: like trans people as a community is a false equivalency 530 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 12: that I really want to urge people to not engage in, 531 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 12: because it's just a transphobic Internet trope as opposed to 532 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 12: like an entire community of people who are just trying 533 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 12: to do their best and live their daily lives. I 534 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 12: would just urge people to not add fuel to the 535 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 12: fire and really be careful about. 536 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 9: The information that you're consuming and do research. 537 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,959 Speaker 12: Have media literacy, because I think it can be really 538 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 12: easy to get in the weeds with any kind of 539 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 12: in cell community language because there is just so much 540 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 12: of it and it's so vast and so awful. But 541 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 12: I promise transmaxers aren't a threat because they don't exist. 542 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 9: I think the real threat is the way. 543 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 12: That young men are socialized in this country and socialized 544 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 12: towards violence. 545 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow 546 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios. In Cells is 547 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Laideger, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. 548 00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by 549 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: Jeff Tooi music by Vanikore. Studios In Cells is a 550 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: production of KAT Studios and iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts 551 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 552 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.