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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question. Today.

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Speaker 1: We're exploring a topic that has a lot of relevance

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Speaker 1: to me and to my plus one today, who happens

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Speaker 1: to be my daughter. Carrying onahan, I had an eating

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Speaker 1: disorder when I was in my late teens and early twenties.

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Speaker 1: I was blimic. I was always on a diet. If

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Speaker 1: I deviated even slightly from what I thought were the

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Speaker 1: right foods or good foods, for example, having a piece

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Speaker 1: of gum that wasn't sugarless, I would then binge indiscriminately

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Speaker 1: and make myself throw up. Now there's some evidence that

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Speaker 1: this disease may be hereditary. We'll be asking our guests

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Speaker 1: about that. But Carrie, you had an eating disorder, not once,

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Speaker 1: but twice. Can you just tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about your experience.

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Speaker 2: I think I was in sixth grade when I started

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Speaker 2: to feel uncomfortable in my own body. I was in

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Speaker 2: a so called early bloomer, which some people are proud

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Speaker 2: of being. I certainly was not. I really wanted to

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Speaker 2: stay a little girl, and I was very upset about

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Speaker 2: am I allowed to say. I was getting breast buds.

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Speaker 1: Yes, on this pood. Yes, I think that's allowed.

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Speaker 2: And I even remember going to a checkup, maybe in

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Speaker 2: fifth grade or maybe it was even fourth grade, and

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Speaker 2: I thought I had breast cancer because it felt hard

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Speaker 2: under my knippall and I had told maybe our babysitter,

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Speaker 2: and she said, oh, we should ask the doctor about it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why she wasn't just like you're getting boobs. Anyways,

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Speaker 2: I think the onset of puberty. I think this is

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Speaker 2: very common, made me feel very ashamed of my body.

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Speaker 2: Used to say to me, Oh, it's normal to grow

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Speaker 2: out then up or something, which I did not like

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Speaker 2: to hear because I was like, well, what if I

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Speaker 2: never grow up?

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Speaker 3: And you know whatever? And so I think in.

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Speaker 2: Sixth grade I started because I was on, you know,

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Speaker 2: consuming a lot of thin people in media, watching the

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Speaker 2: oc et cetera.

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Speaker 3: I started to.

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Speaker 1: Diet in sixth grade.

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Speaker 2: In sixth or maybe seventh grade, I started to lose weight,

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Speaker 2: stuff getting my period. Eighth grade, I think I had

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Speaker 2: a touch of blimia.

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Speaker 3: And laxative use. Is this too graphic?

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Speaker 4: Okay?

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Speaker 2: And then ninth grade going to a co ed school

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Speaker 2: where I felt like I didn't get attention from boys.

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Speaker 2: I kind of tried to model my body after a

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Speaker 2: girl I was friends with who I think I wanted

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Speaker 2: to be or maybe want to be with.

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Speaker 3: That's something maybe want to discuss.

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Speaker 2: But and then it became kind of as I think

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about this addiction to the external validation. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if addiction is the right word. I think

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about that again. But and then became kind

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Speaker 2: of like an orthorexia wellness thing. And I think I'm

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Speaker 2: mostly fine now. I mean, I think about food and

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Speaker 2: my body like all the time, but I think the

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Speaker 2: behavior is more managed.

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Speaker 1: And you got very very thin in high school, to

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Speaker 1: the point it was really quite scary. You were very underweight,

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Speaker 1: and do you remember how you wouldn't eat anything. I

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Speaker 1: think you were actually anorexic during that period.

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Speaker 3: You know, I still ate.

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Speaker 2: I just ate the same things every day, and I

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Speaker 2: was I think I must have had mercury poisoning or something,

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Speaker 2: because I ate tuna fish every single day at lunch.

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Speaker 2: And I was very afraid of gaining weight, even to

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Speaker 2: the point where being at Sleepwoy Camp, a place that

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Speaker 2: I'd love for like eight years. When I read not

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Speaker 2: being able to go back to camp, it was like

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Speaker 2: this dialectic in my mind, like I really want to

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Speaker 2: be thin, I'm really afraid of gaining weight, but I

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Speaker 2: also want to be normal and stop thinking about this

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Speaker 2: all the time. So yeah, of course I remember all

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Speaker 2: of that. But I think it's also important to note

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Speaker 2: that there were a lot of moments in my adolescence

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Speaker 2: or young adulthood when I wasn't necessarily thin, but I

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Speaker 2: was still struggling. And when you're not underweight, you can

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Speaker 2: still be having an eating disorder, and often those people

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Speaker 2: don't get the attention or care that's needed because their

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Speaker 2: body doesn't happen to be clinically underweight.

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Speaker 1: Well. Our guest today is Emmaline Kline, and Emmaline has

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Speaker 1: written a new book called dead Weight Essays on Hunger

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Speaker 1: and Harm, And in many ways it feels like the

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Speaker 1: definitive exploration of eating disorders, the cultural history, the economic triggers,

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Speaker 1: and the stories we're told and have told ourselves for decades.

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Speaker 1: It's both deeply personal and meticulously researched, fast eight and insightful. Emmaline,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming to the podcast.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy

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Speaker 5: to be here and talking to you guys.

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Speaker 1: Now we should mention how do you all know each other?

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Speaker 1: You have a mutual friend in Carrie's high school friend

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Speaker 1: and your college friend Matt Malone.

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Speaker 5: Right, we have a mutual aubacity. Shout out to him.

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Speaker 5: We'd be lost without him.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Emline and I are new friends.

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Speaker 5: But it's going really well so far.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Emmaline and I met for the first time only in

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Speaker 2: maybe late November, but we really bonded. I think over

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Speaker 2: a lot of the content of the book and Emmaline

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Speaker 2: and her book invokes her sisters often, but I do

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Speaker 2: feel like I'm part of this sisterhood with her, and

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Speaker 2: I think that's made us become fast friends.

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Speaker 1: Totally agree, Emline. So tell me. I was going to

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Speaker 1: say I devoured your book, and then I thought maybe

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Speaker 1: that's not the right verb to use. But tell me

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Speaker 1: what made you want to write this book.

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Speaker 6: So I started struggling with my body and the way

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Speaker 6: that feeding it seemed to affect its appearance, and the

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Speaker 6: way that I was received in the world based on

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Speaker 6: my parents when I was really young, like how old,

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Speaker 6: like eleven twelve. But the first time I became severe

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Speaker 6: enough that I needed to get medical care for it

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Speaker 6: was in around seventh grade, so I've been thinking about that,

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Speaker 6: and then I was struggling with it on and off

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Speaker 6: through high school and college, but it was mostly at

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Speaker 6: a sort of manageable EBB. So I've been thinking about

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Speaker 6: these issues for a really long time, and I've just

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Speaker 6: always felt in my own journey to attempt to recover

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Speaker 6: that educating myself.

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Speaker 5: About the history of these diseases.

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Speaker 6: And finding models of other women who have been able

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Speaker 6: to recover was incredibly healing for me. But I found

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Speaker 6: that most of the books I was reading were very

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Speaker 6: siloed and limited in the range.

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Speaker 5: Of narratives about these diseases.

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Speaker 6: Is that we're being told often eating disorders in our

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Speaker 6: culture are discussed either through pure memoir or a self

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Speaker 6: help book or just a highly academic sort of medical book.

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Speaker 5: And I felt like I.

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Speaker 6: Was looking around at the world and thinking to myself, Well,

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Speaker 6: diseases that are just as demographically prevalent as eating disorders,

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Speaker 6: like opioid addiction, like alcoholism, like depression are understood as

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Speaker 6: clinical diseases, yes, but they're also understood as microcosms of

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Speaker 6: a lot of cultural and social and economic and political forces,

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Speaker 6: and looking at them that way can foster a sense

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Speaker 6: of solidarity among people who are suffering from them that

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Speaker 6: I think isn't often available to eating disorder sufferers who

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Speaker 6: feel that this is a very individual failing and then

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Speaker 6: a very individual journey through recovery. And so I wanted

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Speaker 6: to create a book that would give eating disorders that

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Speaker 6: sort of layered intellectual and historical treatment, while also acknowledging

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Speaker 6: that the messages girls received from a very young age

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Speaker 6: are coming from a lot of cultural sources like team

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Speaker 6: television shows and why fiction and stuff that is not

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Speaker 6: necessarily usually analyzed as influential as it can be on us.

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Speaker 1: Before we talk about those cultural influences, because as you

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Speaker 1: all being contemporaries, I want to kind of dive into

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Speaker 1: some of the TV shows and magazines and etc. That

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Speaker 1: really impacted you all growing up. But how widespread is

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Speaker 1: this problem? Because I think people really don't have a

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Speaker 1: full understanding of well, we'll talk about the spectrum of

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Speaker 1: eating disorders in a moment, but how many people are

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Speaker 1: impacted by this?

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Speaker 6: This issue affects far more people than we generally imagine

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Speaker 6: it affecting, and not only at a fully clinical diagnosable level,

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Speaker 6: but pretty much any woman I've known in my life

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Speaker 6: has had some symptom of disordered eating over the course

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Speaker 6: of their adolescence, teenage years, and womanhood.

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Speaker 5: Many men I know have suffered from it.

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Speaker 6: It's hugely widespread, and I think our general understanding of

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Speaker 6: food and beauty and bodies is itself disordered, and the

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Speaker 6: prevalence of diet culture sort of creates a world in

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Speaker 6: which it's pretty much impossible not to have an eating disorder,

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Speaker 6: and the eating disorders that we think of as the

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Speaker 6: main ones, anarexi and bolimia are actually less prevalent than

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Speaker 6: binge eating disorder. And then on the other end of

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Speaker 6: the spectrum, eating disorders and obesity are often talked about

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Speaker 6: like totally separate, even dueling epidemics, and in fact I

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Speaker 6: think they're both sort of symptoms of our larger disordered

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Speaker 6: eating culture.

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Speaker 1: You two have a lot in common in terms of

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Speaker 1: the shows you were consuming as teenagers. Can you all

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the shows and how they

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Speaker 1: impacted your sense of self and the way you looked

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Speaker 1: at your bodies?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think Emmaline and I were clearly

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Speaker 2: both very enamored of Marissa Cooper on the OC played

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Speaker 2: by Misha Barton, who, as Emmaline writes about, had to

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Speaker 2: get her character killed off in order to heal herself,

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Speaker 2: the actress she later wrote about. And I think not

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Speaker 2: only were we consuming the same shows like Gossip Girl,

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Speaker 2: and Emmeline writes about Blair Waldorf's bulimia, which is somehow

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Speaker 2: never brought up again after one episode.

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Speaker 1: But it's very much in the book Gossip Girl.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so from Gossip Girl to the OC, you know

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Speaker 2: all of these CW TV shows, And I think also

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Speaker 2: Emmeline and I, as contemporaries and both struggling with disordered eating,

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Speaker 2: were visiting all a lot of the same web forums,

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Speaker 2: a lot of pro anorexia websites and tumblers and looking

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Speaker 2: at what you know, was called the inspiration or thinspo

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Speaker 2: or there's also a reverse spo which I didn't really

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Speaker 2: know about until reading your book, which is like when

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Speaker 2: somebody gains weight like supposed to discourage you from eating,

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Speaker 2: which is really disturbing.

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Speaker 1: So these websites and such were all ubiquitous even when

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Speaker 1: you all were like twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old.

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Speaker 6: I think that there's actually really fascinating overlap between what

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Speaker 6: was depicted on these shows, and then the actresses in

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Speaker 6: these shows were being covered by the tabloid media, and

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Speaker 6: then both the actual shows and the tabloid imagery were

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Speaker 6: being used on these sort of inspiration forums. I think

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Speaker 6: often perhaps the creators of some of this media thought

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Speaker 6: they were writing cautionary tales and ended up providing.

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Speaker 5: Role models for a lot of young girls.

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Speaker 6: And then at the same time as you're seeing this

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Speaker 6: depicted on the show, you're seeing those same starlets being

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Speaker 6: picked apart in US Weekly every week. And then as

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Speaker 6: soon as they developed and eating disorder, likely because of

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Speaker 6: the way they were retreated in the media, you have

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Speaker 6: like them being called bad role models because they're inneraxic.

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Speaker 5: On this cover of the same magazines.

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Speaker 1: It was very and still is. I think it's not

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Speaker 1: as if so much has changed, but it's so many

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Speaker 1: mixed societal messages, and I thought it was interesting that

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Speaker 1: you write this book for the victims of our cultural obsession,

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Speaker 1: which turns out to be all of us. Let me

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Speaker 1: read you the following. The skinny, Sexy, sad girl silhouette

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Speaker 1: has haunted so many of our dreams. She hawks her

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Speaker 1: six sort of beauty, purring false promises, from just over

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Speaker 1: the horizon line, but someone stranded her at the vanishing

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Speaker 1: point where she recedes even farther into the distance. The

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Speaker 1: closer we get, and they don't want us to reach her,

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Speaker 1: because then we might save her, convince her she's been

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Speaker 1: lied to. Like the rest of us, I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: row a lifeboat and write a love letter and learn

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Speaker 1: to swim. I am writing this for the living girls

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Speaker 1: hiding in their bedrooms, obsessing over the dead ones, the

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Speaker 1: hungry girls and horny girls and hidden girls, the dead

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Speaker 1: girls who thought the only way they'd be remembered was

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Speaker 1: by sliding into their place, and the cannon come mausoleum

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Speaker 1: for all the girls who weren't wrong and all the

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Speaker 1: girls who were. It's clear to me that throughout this book,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to demonize anyone, and you wanted this

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Speaker 1: to feel like an inclusive look at this issue. It's

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Speaker 1: not like the skinny girls, the perfect girls were the

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Speaker 1: heroines and the girls who didn't look like them were

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Speaker 1: the victims. They're all victims. All of these women are victims.

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Speaker 1: Why did you want to make sure that you approached

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Speaker 1: it this way?

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Speaker 5: Thank you for.

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Speaker 6: Asking that question, because that decision was really central to

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Speaker 6: my sort of ethical considerations as I was writing this book,

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Speaker 6: because I wanted to highlight the way this very specific,

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Speaker 6: misogynistic and racist beauty standard of this extremely skinny white

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Speaker 6: girl has given so many of us eating disorders or

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Speaker 6: symptoms of disordered eating.

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Speaker 5: And yet I don't think that it's her fault.

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Speaker 6: The girl that embodies that beauty stand actually probably had

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Speaker 6: to suffer so much to a body it, and I

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Speaker 6: feel like often in the discourse around eating disorders, the

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Speaker 6: different diagnoses become hierarchical, the way that people look becomes hierarchical,

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Speaker 6: And what I wanted to do was parse out the

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Speaker 6: ways that we've all felt the same way, and we've

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Speaker 6: all shared this incredibly intense form of suffering, and it

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Speaker 6: actually isn't as important who was getting closer to the

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Speaker 6: beauty standard versus who wasn't able to, because we were

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Speaker 6: sharing the same pain. And I have read so many

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Speaker 6: books myself that ended up manuals or bibles or something

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Speaker 6: that they weren't intended to be, and so I wanted

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Speaker 6: to write something that was very clearly not instructive and

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Speaker 6: was not glamorizing that beauty ideal, and was sort of

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Speaker 6: dissecting it from inside out, while also coming from a

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Speaker 6: place compassion and sort of saying to any girl out

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Speaker 6: there who's ever hurt herself to embody that beauty standard,

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Speaker 6: like I have two and I completely understand that impulse.

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Speaker 1: Carrie and I both commented on how interesting it was

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Speaker 1: to really look at eating disorders in a hierarchical way,

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Speaker 1: the fact that anorexia is sort of the noble one

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Speaker 1: and bulimia I think you even described it as well.

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Speaker 1: The British Journal of Psychiatry called the disorder Anorexia's ugly

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Speaker 1: sister in two thousand and four. I was surprised that

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Speaker 1: an expert finally named bulimia just fifty years ago, a

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Speaker 1: pretty recent diagnosis. And then, of course there is binge

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Speaker 1: eating disorder. So it seems like you divided up into

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Speaker 1: these three categories, but people can go from one to

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Speaker 1: the other, and they can be kind of a mishmash.

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Speaker 1: Can you just talk about how this hierarchy was established

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Speaker 1: and is it part of our society's obsession with thinness

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Speaker 1: that we elevate people who are emaciated to a higher level.

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Speaker 6: Yes, I mean short answer, yes, I definitely think it is.

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Speaker 6: But I think part of the reason anarexia exists at

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Speaker 6: the top of this hierarchy is because of our societal

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Speaker 6: obsession with thinness. So in the book, I really try

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Speaker 6: to look at it from a perspective, that is, looking

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Speaker 6: at the way that the hierarchy exists in the medical field,

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Speaker 6: but also how it exists in our culture. So in

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Speaker 6: movies and in books, often aner exx are depicted as

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Speaker 6: sort of taking the good girl archetype too far, wanting

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Speaker 6: to be too perfect, following society's rules too well. She

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Speaker 6: knows she shouldn't take up so much space, like she's.

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Speaker 1: It's perfection on steroids exactly.

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Speaker 6: And there's and it's this fetishization of discipline that we

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Speaker 6: also have in our culture, and of being able to

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Speaker 6: follow a lot of rules and of being able.

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Speaker 5: To control your bodily needs.

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Speaker 6: It's also often very much hyper intellectualized, whereas Bulimia gets

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Speaker 6: constructed as sort of the disease of the like spoiled

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Speaker 6: Brady girl, and you see that in terms of the

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Speaker 6: character and Gossip Girl, the way she's depicted in the

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Speaker 6: books and in the show, but also in medical journals,

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Speaker 6: with a medical journal calling Bolimia anarxia's ugly sister. There's

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Speaker 6: articles from the eighties when it was first becoming added

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Speaker 6: to the DSM and widely understood as a disease that

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Speaker 6: you were seeing in like mainstream newspapers would be saying

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Speaker 6: bolimia usually starts as after a male rejection, or like

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Speaker 6: the doctor Gerald Russell, who just who first came up

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Speaker 6: with the diagnosis, was writing things in his notes like

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Speaker 6: that anorexis and bleimix differed mainly in that beliemix were

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Speaker 6: often more sexually active and also fatter. So this dichotomy

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Speaker 6: has been constructed from both an academic perspective and a

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Speaker 6: psychiatric perspective and is replicated in our culture. And then

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Speaker 6: that separation serves to make beliemix suffer a lot of

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Speaker 6: shame and makes it make anerrex feel sort of superior, superior,

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Speaker 6: but also like that is not that is a very

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Speaker 6: shaky pedestal that you could fall off at any time,

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Speaker 6: because forty percent, I believe of people who are diagnosed

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Speaker 6: with anorexia eventually suffer binge eating disorder symptoms. And then

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Speaker 6: binge eating disorder is taken even less seriously than bolimia

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Speaker 6: and anorexia by both the medical profession and by our

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Speaker 6: society at large. It's often mocked and it's also just

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Speaker 6: much much harder to get treatment for it's much harder

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Speaker 6: to get your insurance to take it seriously.

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Speaker 1: And yet it's super dangerous. You know, you talked about

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Speaker 1: people dying from binge eating disorder and the cycle of

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Speaker 1: starvation and binging and shame, and it really does kind

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Speaker 1: of take over people's lives completely.

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Speaker 5: And there's just so much diagnostic crossover.

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Speaker 6: There's one study I've found that was called Pride before

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Speaker 6: a Fall colon like diagnostic crossover is in Shame or

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Speaker 6: something like that, and it was interviewing people who move

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Speaker 6: between anarexia, blimia, and bingeating disorder diagnosis diagnoses. And the

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Speaker 6: shame that people feel when their diagnosis has changed from

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Speaker 6: anorexia to one of the others is just so heartbreaking.

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Speaker 6: And the diagnoses don't really serve much of a curate

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Speaker 6: ative purpose beyond giving insurance. And the treatment center is

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Speaker 6: a way to categorize you, to simplify, you know, charging

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Speaker 6: and how you're thinking about it. And so when so

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Speaker 6: many of our symptoms are the same and so many

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Speaker 6: binge eaters go through huge restrictive periods that truly are

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Speaker 6: simply narexic periods, but we just won't validate their disease

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Speaker 6: with the same name we.

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Speaker 5: Give other people.

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Speaker 6: How do we ever expect somebody to recover when that

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Speaker 6: when these diseases are so rooted in shame, and then

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Speaker 6: the actual diagnostic structure only often reinforces that shame.

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Speaker 1: We have to take a quick break. Then we'll be

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Speaker 1: back with Emmeline Kleine and my favorite plus one yet

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Speaker 1: Caring Mine. If you want to get smarter every morning

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Speaker 1: with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on

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Speaker 1: health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our

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Speaker 1: daily newsletter Wake Upcall by going to Katiecuric dot com.

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Speaker 1: We're back with Emmeline Klein m I plus one, Kerrie

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Speaker 1: Courric Monahan.

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Speaker 2: Emline to your point about people cycling through different diagnoses

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Speaker 2: or different disorders, and how dividing into different categories and

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Speaker 2: subcategories not only promotes competition, but it also is unrealistic

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Speaker 2: in that people often move between them and one often

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Speaker 2: will trigger the other. So I know that for me personally,

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Speaker 2: my bolimia was caused by the so called recovery from inarexia.

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Speaker 2: And I found this really interesting that in nineteen fifty five,

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Speaker 2: doctor Albert Stunkard coin the term mourning and which was

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Speaker 2: when you know, a patient would not eat all day

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Speaker 2: in pursuit of thinness or dieting. And then understandably at

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Speaker 2: twilight you write something like would follow the light of

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Speaker 2: the refrigerator or something and binge eat and that would

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Speaker 2: obviously cause a lot of digestive problems and like a

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Speaker 2: cycle of shame. And I think a lot of people

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Speaker 2: don't understand that binging often is the result of restriction.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Mom, I know we've talked about this before,

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Speaker 2: that when you would feel like you'd been so good

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Speaker 2: all day but then you you know, quote unquote messed up,

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Speaker 2: then it would lead to you eating I shouldn't say

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Speaker 2: crazy amount of food, but a lot of.

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Speaker 1: Food, or over eating or eating kind of forbidden foods.

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Speaker 1: But I think what Carrie's getting at is this whole

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Speaker 1: idea you explore in the book that diet culture, restrictive eating,

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Speaker 1: which hey, it makes people hungry, has actually led to

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Speaker 1: the prevalence of eating disorders.

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Speaker 5: Yes, completely, And I think that was one of the

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Speaker 5: most sort.

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Speaker 1: Of aha moments.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well, It was just really transformative for me, even

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Speaker 6: in my own recovery, because it helped me realize the

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Speaker 6: extent to which I was upon and this wasn't an

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Speaker 6: individual failing. So we have a culture that is obsessed

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Speaker 6: with diets and selling us diets and convincing us that

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Speaker 6: diets work. Which diets we think work in a given

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Speaker 6: era are constantly changing, despite the fact that or on

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Speaker 6: a grand scale, like ninety five percent of diets quote

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Speaker 6: unquote fail in that people gain back the weight, whether

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Speaker 6: even if they originally lose it.

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Speaker 5: But this is because human bodies have a.

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Speaker 6: Set point and there is a not that large range

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Speaker 6: which your body wants to settle at.

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Speaker 5: And so when you go on any diet.

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Speaker 6: Whether it's extreme restriction or just a low level restriction

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Speaker 6: which often spirals into extreme restriction, your body is sort

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Speaker 6: of thinking it's in a famine right to be really

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Speaker 6: hungry after the diet is over.

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Speaker 5: And we have seen this since literally the fifties.

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Speaker 6: As Carrie was mentioning, there's a really interesting study that

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Speaker 6: was run by Ansel Keys called the Minnesota Starvation Experiment

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Speaker 6: that was genuinely its purpose was to investigate what was

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Speaker 6: going to happen when people who had been forced to

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Speaker 6: eat very little due to wartime rations after World War Two,

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Speaker 6: we're going to start eating normally again. So they had

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Speaker 6: conscientious objectors start eating half their normal calories and then

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Speaker 6: eventually start eating freely again. And they wanted to see

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Speaker 6: what would happen. And basically what happened is that before

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Speaker 6: there was even a diagnosis for binge eating disorder, these

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Speaker 6: people all developed what are very clearly the symptoms of

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Speaker 6: binge eating disorder in the wake of what was basically

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Speaker 6: forced anorexia, right, And so they were eating in huge quantities.

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Speaker 6: One man was hospitalized because he binged so much. And

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Speaker 6: the period in which they wanted to binge lasted much

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Speaker 6: longer than they expected, Like, it wasn't just the initial

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Speaker 6: couple weeks where they were eating food again.

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Speaker 1: So what did this show?

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Speaker 6: So what this showed is that pretty much anytime you

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Speaker 6: embark on a restrictive diet, your body is going to

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Speaker 6: want to overcompensate because it's afraid that that's.

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Speaker 5: Going to happen again. Right, It has no idea.

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Speaker 6: And so this is one of the reasons that actually

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Speaker 6: repeated dieting is correlated. And there's this obesity researcher Jranet

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Speaker 6: Tomayama who said this repeated dieting is actually correlated with

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Speaker 6: a higher weight in the end than with a lower weight,

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Speaker 6: because your set point moves up because it's trying to

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Speaker 6: avoid the famine.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 6: And so basically, despite the fact that we've known that

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Speaker 6: since like the fifties, and despite the fact that also

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Speaker 6: the rations that were being given to these men to

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Speaker 6: mimic literal starvation was very similar to the calories that

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Speaker 6: were being given out at weight loss treatments.

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Speaker 5: At the time in the fifties.

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Speaker 1: Right, it was something like sixteen hundred calories.

439
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean then it is prolong.

440
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, the rations were higher than what an app like

441
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 6: my fitness Pal was telling me to eat when I

442
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 6: was entering in my desired vision, right, you know. So

443
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 6: we have all of this information, and we also know

444
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 6: that weight cycling, which is when your weight changes significantly,

445
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 6: is hugely correlated with so many with both ending up

446
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 6: at a higher weight and also with a lot of

447
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 6: very dangerous things like heart disease.

448
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: Right, Like yo yo ing is supposed to be really

449
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 1: bad on your body.

450
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 2: Right.

451
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 5: Weight cycling is one of the most dangerous things you

452
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:31,959
Speaker 5: can do for your body.

453
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 6: And we live in a society that's constantly telling us

454
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 6: to yo yo diet. I even I talk about in

455
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 6: the book this phenomenon on TikTok that's called hashtag last

456
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 6: night eating, which is when people will be like, well,

457
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 6: I failed. My last diet failed because I couldn't stick

458
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 6: to something to nourishing my body much less than what

459
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 6: it wanted. So now I'm going to start another one

460
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 6: next week. But before I do that, I'm going to

461
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 6: do a crazy feast and I'm going to film it.

462
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 6: And so this is a very clearly binge eating disorder

463
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 6: right followed by a restrictive period. And yet we're not

464
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 6: calling that behavior disordered. We're just calling it dieting, which

465
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 6: is part of what then further entrenches the epidemic of

466
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 6: eating disorders because people are just taking all of this

467
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 6: this messaging.

468
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 5: To somewhat of an extreme right. But then because we

469
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 5: silo that extreme.

470
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 6: Off from the rest of diet culture and we say

471
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 6: eating disorders are separate from diet culture, we can't see

472
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 6: that diet culture is what gave us the eating disorders

473
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 6: in the first place, and instead we try to treat

474
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 6: it in ways that aren't successful, in extremely medicalized ways

475
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 6: that refuse to engage with really much sort of politics

476
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 6: or history or feminism.

477
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: I was interested in how you write about dieting disordered eating,

478
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 2: is this kind of normalizing force, especially for queer people

479
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 2: and for women of color. I remember this piece maybe

480
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 2: in The Economists last year about the biness is good

481
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 2: economics for women. So you write, living in a body

482
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: of color in a world that worships white beauty standards

483
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: can disturbingly render disordered eating in assimilationist coping strategy. So

484
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: I think that was true when writing about queer people

485
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 2: with eating disorders, and also black women with eating disorders.

486
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: Do you want to expand.

487
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 6: Throughout my research, I found a lot of stories of

488
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 6: people of color and queer people who felt shame about

489
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 6: the way their body appeared in society. And when people

490
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 6: are feeling this shame and simultaneously receiving these messages about

491
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 6: this very slim beauty standard, then using disordered eating behaviors

492
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 6: as a mechanism to sort of bring yourself into alignment

493
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 6: with the normative standard can feel very alluring, and it

494
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 6: can feel like a genuine economic proposition. As Carrie said,

495
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,479
Speaker 6: there is evidence about thinner women getting better salaries and

496
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 6: better promotions more quickly, et cetera. And so you see

497
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 6: black women and people of color suffering from these issues

498
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 6: in huge numbers, but they also are being underdiagnosed on mass,

499
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 6: which is part of why it took so long for

500
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 6: this handbook to exist, because even though large scale studies

501
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 6: that are just surveying people about their symptoms would find

502
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 6: out that black women were really suffering from this issue,

503
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 6: a lot of those interviews weren't with people that were

504
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 6: necessarily getting diagnosed explicitly and getting treatment right. It's just

505
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 6: knowing that you're having the symptomatic thoughts and behaviors. And

506
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 6: then when black women are diagnosed, they're often diagnosed only

507
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 6: with binge eating disorder because they don't always even if

508
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 6: they're going through an anaoxic period or suffering from bolimia,

509
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 6: don't always hit the BMI standard that itself was mostly

510
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 6: based on studies of white people's bodies, So it's just

511
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 6: very difficult to get the diagnosis if you're not in

512
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 6: the body that we associate with the diagnosis. And on

513
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 6: top of that, for low income communities, there's a lot

514
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 6: of widespread food scarcity that forces people to live in

515
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 6: a state of hunger that then when food becomes accessible,

516
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 6: can lead to a binge, and especially when that food

517
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 6: is highly processed food that is the cheapest food and

518
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 6: the most accessible food, and that food is also designed

519
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 6: to incite binges on top of the way that your

520
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 6: body also is very hungry in that state, highly processed

521
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 6: foods that have been shown in like MRI scans to

522
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 6: light up the similar opioid receptors as doing drugs. So

523
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 6: it's basically just a really perfect storm for these communities

524
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 6: where the messaging that people are receiving about beauty standards,

525
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 6: the food that is available, and the funds that exist

526
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 6: to access it are creating binge and restrict cycles and

527
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 6: also creating specific binge and restrict cycles that often lead

528
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 6: people to end up in a.

529
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 5: Body that is a higher weight.

530
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 6: And so then all of those people are then demonized

531
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 6: using the language of the obesity epidemic, when in fact

532
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 6: fact many of them are not suffering from obesity, but

533
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 6: are suffering from an eating disorder, or they're suffering from

534
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 6: both at the same time, and often the eating disorder

535
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 6: caused the obesity, and we can't actually treat that issue

536
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 6: effectively now because we haven't treated the underlying issue and

537
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 6: we're even refusing to acknowledge it.

538
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: The same sort of restriction binge cycle that is so

539
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: prominent in diet culture is prominent in these underserved communities

540
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: because of food scarcity and then food abundance and kind

541
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: of going back and forth between those two extremes.

542
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this quote from Emmeline sums it up.

543
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: The food insecure, fast food consuming, fat person is perennially

544
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 2: cast as the problem, entrenching the lie that bodies are

545
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: built by individuals instead of systems, rather than recognizing that

546
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: food insecurity, the temporal structure of low wage workers' days,

547
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: and the addictiveness of processed foods render poor people especially

548
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: vulnerable to binging and obesity alive fat and poor people

549
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: are demonized, imagine to make bad choices and prefer unhealthy.

550
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: Food, and it's really the system that's setting them up

551
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: for this vicious cycle completely.

552
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 6: And then to just kind of circle back a little

553
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 6: to the hierarchical topic we were talking about before, like

554
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 6: whether you're being set up to have an eating disorder

555
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 6: in a low income community for all the reasons we

556
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 6: just described, or if you're just being set up to

557
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 6: have an eating disorder in a completely separate environment while

558
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 6: watching a CWU television show. In both cases, the issue

559
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 6: ends up getting individualized, and then the diagnostic hierarchy makes

560
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 6: us unable to see the similarities that we just aligned

561
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 6: between our two positions and understand the way that our

562
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 6: economic system and weight loss companies and many other corporations

563
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 6: that make food, for example, are really profiting off of

564
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 6: the eating disorder epidemic and the obesity epidemic alike, and

565
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 6: the way that the two end up motoring each other

566
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 6: and revving each other up is really just making a

567
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 6: lot of these issues get worse and worse.

568
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: They're sort of symbiotic in a way.

569
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: And the investors themselves in you know, these weight loss apps,

570
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: whether it's my Fitness Pal, I don't know if that's

571
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: one of them, but the investors who are funding the

572
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: weight loss apps or even you know, Wagovy and ozempic

573
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: are also funding I'm not sure if it's for profit

574
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: eating disorder centers, but certainly the treatments and the apps

575
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 2: and so neither really has an interest.

576
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: In solving the problem.

577
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: Solving that problem because often the person using my fitness Pal.

578
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 3: Maybe this wasn't one of the apps, and none.

579
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 5: Of those is it.

580
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 6: It's like the person, so the person using a weight

581
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 6: Watchers app or my fitness Pal app often might end

582
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 6: up getting an eating disorder and then receiving treatment at

583
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 6: a center that, unbeknownst to them, invested in a weight

584
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 6: loss app. The example I used in the book is

585
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 6: I think Noom because that's just one of many apps

586
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 6: that has sort of shared investors between both, Like they're

587
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 6: investing in the treatment center and they're also investing in

588
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 6: the weight loss app, and so it's creating this sort

589
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 6: of cycle, which I don't even think is a conspiracy

590
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 6: on the part of the investors. But it's just that

591
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 6: this is so entrenched, and we're so our society is

592
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 6: so unwilling to see what you said, Katie about the

593
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 6: fact that the society has the eating disorder, that we're

594
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 6: still deluding ourselves into believing that the weight loss industry

595
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 6: can exist in the way it exists now without creating

596
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 6: eating disorders. So we want to believe that a weight

597
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 6: loss app could exist, and so could a eating disorder

598
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 6: treatment app, and that those two things could have nothing

599
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 6: to do with each other.

600
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 5: But that just isn't the world we live in.

601
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: I want to ask about solutions in a moment, but

602
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: before I do, I want to ask you about the

603
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: mas messages we're getting right now. You know, it seems

604
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: like we were getting real traction in this body positivity

605
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: movement that people come in all different shapes and sizes.

606
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: You know, some people are tall and willowy and some

607
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: people just aren't. Like you know, you have ectomorphs and

608
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: mesomorphs and endomorphs. I think I'm a mesomorph morph. Oh,

609
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: those are different body types like no, no, no, not

610
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: so much fruit, but like just you're naturally tall and thin,

611
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: or you're very muscular, or you're heavier, right, I mean this,

612
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: maybe those things are outdated too, But my point is

613
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: it seemed like we were accepting different bodies and appreciating

614
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: different body sizes. Along comes ozembic, wigovy whatever and all

615
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: these weight loss drugs, and suddenly we're hearing, no, you

616
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: don't want to be a certain size because everyone wants

617
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: to be thin. And you see people who were appreciated

618
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: for their weight, like Mindy Kaalen because she represented a

619
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: certain segment of the population, or Oprah suddenly becoming thin,

620
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: and I'm it's just very confusing I think for the

621
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: average woman.

622
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 6: I completely agree there's so many mixed messages, but I think, well,

623
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 6: I think one thing that it reveals is that a

624
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 6: lot of the body positivity messaging, while valiant, and it's

625
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 6: just not working. Well, it's just it's not that it's

626
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 6: not working, but it's it's sort of what I was

627
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 6: saying before, where it's like the fact that so many

628
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 6: people that were like beacons of body positivity clearly like

629
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 6: once becoming thin via a syringe was accessible, then they

630
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 6: might not want.

631
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 5: To be a beacon of body positivity anymore.

632
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 6: Indicates that while that messaging was beautiful and valiant, it

633
00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 6: wasn't necessarily breaking through the centuries of message that we'd

634
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 6: been given around thinness. And we have seen and the

635
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 6: executives who make these drugs will readily admit that the

636
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 6: minute you go off it, you start getting weight again.

637
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 6: All of these executives will say that they see this

638
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 6: as a chronic right and you have to be on

639
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 6: it for the rest of your life. So if somebody

640
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 6: doesn't want to be on it for the rest of

641
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 6: their life, or they can't afford to be on it,

642
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 6: for the rest of their life.

643
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: Or they don't really know the impact exactly of a

644
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: long term use of the drug thyroid cancer.

645
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: To quote this person in the Gea Tolentino, Yes, yes.

646
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 6: You know, like the animals, the long term sidies that

647
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 6: have done on animals, many of them have thyroid cancer.

648
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 6: Like people report a lot of stomach pain and really

649
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 6: bad things, but also future side effects we don't know

650
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 6: about that might involve losing an organ, and we still

651
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 6: think it's worth it to get these the benefits that society

652
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 6: gives you for being thin, and so I think the

653
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 6: question that that should make us ask is why do

654
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 6: we allow thinness to hold this power in this society?

655
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 6: And how can we start asking ourselves that question? But

656
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 6: instead it seems like the question we're asking is like

657
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 6: how many people? How will insurance start paying for everyone's

658
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 6: zam big, which is depressing.

659
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 1: Just to put a button on that. I think it's

660
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 1: very interesting that weight Watchers has joined forces with wa

661
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,439
Speaker 1: GOVI or with these weight loss medications. I think weight

662
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,439
Speaker 1: loss companies are afraid they'll go out of business if

663
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: they don't embrace medical options.

664
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 6: I think that that's true, and I think they also

665
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 6: know that because these drugs do not work at all.

666
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 6: The minute you're off it, many people are going to

667
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 6: be going on journeys with their doctors where like they

668
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 6: do lose enough weight that then they're no longer eligible

669
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 6: for the ozembic they were on, right, and so now

670
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 6: they need something like weight watchers in that interim period to.

671
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: Like to stabilize their weight after losing it right medication.

672
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 6: If they go off it, they'll start experience experiencing that

673
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 6: extreme hunger and then like many of us in those moments,

674
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 6: will reach for a rigid diet plan that can help

675
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 6: us control what feels out of control but is actually

676
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 6: our body just trying to nourish us and get us

677
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 6: back to where it wants to be.

678
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 1: And this cycle may continue, right and unless they get

679
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: back on the drug, and it's unclear the long term,

680
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:12,479
Speaker 1: and they.

681
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 6: Can just cycle back and forth because the weight watchers

682
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 6: won't work, and then they'll have a bench period and

683
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 6: then they'll be eligible for the ozombic again.

684
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 2: And Emmaline even cite this leaked weight watchers memo or me, yes,

685
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: this is that part of their business model is that

686
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: it doesn't work.

687
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 3: Yes, there's just coming back.

688
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 6: There was a like leaked memo where the CEO was

689
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 6: saying that because there's there's a really the average weight

690
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 6: watcher's customer, does it like four to six times the

691
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 6: whole like the if you're like a paid program member,

692
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 6: and the CEO is saying, well, yeah, of course that's

693
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 6: our business model.

694
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 5: If it worked, we would be out of business.

695
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with Emmeline Kleine and my plus one,

696
00:38:54,520 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: my daughter Kerry Couric Monaghan. We're back with Emmeline Klein

697
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: and my co host du Jour Carrie Monaghan.

698
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 6: Speaking of all of this weight cycling and the sort

699
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 6: of ways that anarexia for so long was understood as

700
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 6: the pinnacle of this disease hierarchy, and many of the

701
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 6: other disorders that I'm now talking about being very much

702
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 6: invalidated or associated with shame just weren't even understood or

703
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 6: around or recognized as diagnoses. And in the book I

704
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 6: write about Karen Carpenter, who died of anarexion one was

705
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 6: one of the first public figures to do so, and

706
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 6: cass Elliott, who died of what was then considered an

707
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 6: obesity related heart attack but was very likely due to

708
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 6: her lifelong struggle with disordered eating and very restrictive dieting

709
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 6: that she would talk about very publicly, but was never

710
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 6: recognized as disordered eating because she was large, And so

711
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 6: I was just wondering what those figures meant to you

712
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 6: at the time as a young woman.

713
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 1: I write in my book how Karen Carpenter's death had

714
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: a huge impact on me, and I realized even though

715
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: I was bleiemic and she was anarexic, although I think

716
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: she might have been beliemic as well. I think a

717
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: lot of times you can be anorexic and beliemic, but

718
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: bliemic and anorexic is less common, right.

719
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 5: Well, you can, I mean, there's just so much crossover

720
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 5: between all of them.

721
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 7: And you had ans, yes, and also that weaing disorder,

722
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 7: not otherwise And I always wanted to be anorexic, which

723
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 7: is so sickond and of itself.

724
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 5: Oh I did the I was the exactly.

725
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 6: I mean, I when I first in seventh grade got

726
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 6: my first diagnosis, Like it's something I write about in

727
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 6: the book, I was.

728
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 5: I'm ashamed to say this.

729
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 6: Now, but I was so disappointed when I got my

730
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 6: eating disorder not otherwise specified diagnosis because I was like,

731
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 6: so you're just telling me I'm not good enough at anorexia.

732
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 6: And then that was obviously and then that diagnosis often

733
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 6: ends up being motivating, and it made me sicker because

734
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 6: I wanted to feel like I was you know what

735
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 6: I mean. And so it's just very scary. But anyway,

736
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 6: back to back to Karen and Casson, I agree with

737
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 6: you that there is I mean, Karen died using something

738
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 6: that makes you throw up, right, so she clearly did

739
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 6: suffer from bolimia as well. That was just not talked

740
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 6: about as much because we're so obsessed with talking about inerexia.

741
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 1: I just think that cass Elliott, who was as talented

742
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: as Karen Carpenter and I love them both musically, was mocked.

743
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: Of course, the rumor was that she died she choked

744
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: on a ham sandwich, and I think that was a

745
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: way too honestly, was so cruel and people, I'm sure

746
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: late night comedians made fun of it.

747
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 6: Well, there's an incredibly cruel joke that was made that

748
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 6: I mentioned in the book in like literally like a

749
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 6: movie in the two thousand and five where somebody is

750
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 6: the character says is talking about Karen Carpenter, and cass Elliott,

751
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 6: and is like, if they could have just shared the

752
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 6: ham sandwich, they'd both be alive today, which I think

753
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 6: is so cruel and also so emblematic of so many

754
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 6: of these issues, because it's serving to put these two

755
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 6: women who were suffering from the same pain at odds

756
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 6: and also and spit them against each other while also

757
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 6: mocking them both simultaneously. And it's also wildly oversimplifying the

758
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 6: issue and implying that, like, you know, women are idiots.

759
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I mean, I think cass Elliott,

760
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 1: knowing what we know now, deserves as much sympathy as

761
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: Karen Carpenter. I mean, they were both tragedies and both

762
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: I think manifestations of societal expectations of what a beautiful

763
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: or attractive woman should look like, and they were both

764
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: trying to achieve it, but obviously with very different outcomes,

765
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: and yet the source of their pain was very similar, and.

766
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 3: Yet they both ended up dying from it completely.

767
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 6: And it brings me back to the sort of first

768
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 6: of the first question you asked me about why it

769
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 6: was so important to me to make sure that sort

770
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 6: of story had no villains and also was attempting to

771
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 6: create this sort of ghost sisterhood or Coraline and also

772
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 6: and destroy the higher arps exactly, yes, because I you know,

773
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 6: like it just is so sad. Like I wish that

774
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 6: Karen Carpenter and cass Elliott could have gotten in a

775
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 6: room together and talked about how it felt to be

776
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 6: a woman in the public eye whose body was constantly

777
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 6: being analyzed, And I wonder if that conversation could have

778
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 6: helped both of them, and instead they were understood as

779
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 6: suffering from completely different issues.

780
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 2: But I feel like there are villains in the book.

781
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: The villains are the executives and oh yeah.

782
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 5: But the villain. There's no people that right, There's.

783
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 7: No girl villains, right And in fact, you say, except

784
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 7: for the girl bosses.

785
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, but they're being manipulated too, Okay.

786
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: Okay, Emmeline, you right. I'm trying to find out what

787
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,479
Speaker 1: might happen if we blamed someone other than each other

788
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 1: and ourselves for a change. So that leads to this question,

789
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: who is to blame and what can we do as

790
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: the society about it? Or is it just too ingrained

791
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: in our culture?

792
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 6: I think that it is very ingrained, sadly, but I

793
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 6: don't think that it's impossible. I think the weight loss

794
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 6: industry is largely to blame. I think the medical establishment,

795
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 6: while in many ways well intentioned, is in its current

796
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 6: iteration exacerbating the issue rather than genuinely creating models that

797
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 6: I think aid in true recovery. But I think that

798
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 6: it made me really happy to hear you say right

799
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 6: at the beginning of this conversation, like, Oh, this whole

800
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 6: society has an eating disorder, and how are we going

801
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 6: to deal with it? Because I think that the first

802
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 6: step is literally saying that sentence allowed, which for so

803
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 6: long people haven't wanted to say. And a lot of

804
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 6: the companies that benefit from this issue want to keep

805
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 6: eating disorders understood is the clinical issue and not a

806
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 6: political issue or an economic.

807
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 5: Issue at all, and not a social issue, because.

808
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 6: If we can keep it siloed off in the medical establishment,

809
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,919
Speaker 6: then everything else can keep on running. And so I think,

810
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 6: just even as earnest and simple as it seems, I

811
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 6: think having really honest conversations with people in your life

812
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 6: about what nourishing, what consuming food has meant to you

813
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 6: and the ways in which we've all engaged in self

814
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 6: harm in order to come closer to a beauty standard

815
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 6: that many of us don't even politically believe in but

816
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 6: are still subject to. Like the whims of I think

817
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 6: can change our perspective so much.

818
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: How do we destroy the concept that beauty equals thinness?

819
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: You know, I interviewed a Harvard's psychologist named Mazarin Banagie.

820
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: Mazarine Banagi wrote a book called blind Spot, and it

821
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: says how our brains are wired to make connections from

822
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: the time we're very, very young, and so I think

823
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: when you're accosted by all these images of supposed beauty

824
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: and they all look the same, They're all thin, they

825
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: all have the same body type. Oftentimes they're the same color.

826
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: Although we're seeing more diversity and what is considered beautiful now,

827
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: we have to break that connection. And you know, I'm

828
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: sure when you were little, when I was little, fashion magazines, billboards, etc.

829
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: All these visual images just reinforce these unrealistic beauty standards.

830
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: What if from a very early age, from children's books

831
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: to all the visual stimuli we're faced with every day,

832
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 1: showed that that wasn't necessarily the case if we broke

833
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: that connection, I totally agree.

834
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 6: I mean that would I don't have tons of faith

835
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 6: in this society to do that.

836
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 5: But I completely agree with you, and I believe it.

837
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 6: And there's a book called Unshrinking by Kate Mann that

838
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 6: just came out that's about fat phobia and is really amazing,

839
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 6: and she talks about being a fat woman and feeling

840
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 6: so much shame about it her whole life, and suffering

841
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 6: from any eating disorders, and then having a daughter being

842
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 6: what was one of the things that really helped her

843
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 6: finally recover, not wanting to teach her daughter to understand

844
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 6: beauty in the ways she was taught to understand it.

845
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 6: And she talks about being isolated in the pandemic and

846
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 6: actually being like, maybe a silver lining of this is

847
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 6: that I actually have an opportunity to not expose you

848
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 6: to like the billboards and to the magazines and to

849
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 6: the TV, but to curate an Instagram feed that I've

850
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 6: made and just show you all different types of bodies

851
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 6: when your mind is still very fertile and.

852
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 5: Able to make those connections.

853
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 6: And I, you know, was like crying when I read that,

854
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 6: and I thought that was really beautiful, and I think

855
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 6: that is a really amazing model. But what makes me

856
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 6: really scared is that most young people are on TikTok

857
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 6: and on Instagram, not getting that type of feed.

858
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 5: At the end of the book, I call it a

859
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 5: feminism of attention.

860
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 6: Like I wonder if if we listen, we've for so

861
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 6: long the stories we've told about both beauty and about

862
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 6: eating disorders are as narrow and as slim as the

863
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 6: bodies that we've been taught to want. And if we

864
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 6: tell if we listen to a wider range of stories

865
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 6: and let the stories twist and turn, I and also

866
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 6: look back farther than we have and really historicize this

867
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 6: beauty standard and it's like deeply misogynistic, deeply racist, deeply

868
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 6: capitalist roots, then I do think we can start to

869
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 6: unlearn it, because I know, at least for me, like

870
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 6: once I realized how many companies were profiting off of

871
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 6: the pain that I've been taught to feel about the

872
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 6: way I looked, it did start to change some of

873
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 6: what I think of as beautiful.

874
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 1: There's so much more to this conversation. People really need

875
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,240
Speaker 1: to get your book, which is profound in so many ways.

876
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 1: It's called dead Weight Essays on Hunger and Harm. Emmaline,

877
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 1: Thank you for writing it, and thank you for talking

878
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: with us about it. Today, and Carrie, thank you for

879
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: being my plus one.

880
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me.

881
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 6: This was an amazing conversation and I think maybe we

882
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 6: were starting to do some of the amazing unlearning I

883
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 6: was talking about.

884
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 4: And I was honored to be here.

885
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 5: Carrie.

886
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: I think Emmaline's book is really revolutionary and that I've

887
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: never read something that is so expansive on this topic.

888
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,280
Speaker 1: How did you feel when you were reading this book.

889
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 2: I felt liberated and seen in a lot of ways.

890
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 2: I say liberated because you know, just the whole crux

891
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 2: of it is that bodies are built by systems and

892
00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 2: to understand, you know, we've been lied to instead of

893
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: demonizing myself or you know, glorifying past versions of myself

894
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 2: when I was thinner, and just to feel a little

895
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 2: bit of personal responsibility taken off of my shoulders for

896
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: the way I have felt I was crazy when it

897
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 2: comes to food, eating, exercising, anorexia or the exia, bolimia,

898
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 2: all of that, just to you know, I think I

899
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: knew at some level, yes this is baked into our culture,

900
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 2: all the images, etc. But just like the level of

901
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 2: collusion going on, it was very satisfying to discover that

902
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 2: through reading the book.

903
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: Did it remove some of the shame and some of

904
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: the kind of feelings you've had about your appearance or

905
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 1: your weight, or being less than or more than.

906
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think to see it describes so

907
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 2: eloquently the hierarchy of disorders. The sort of worshiping of

908
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 2: Thinness made me feel vindicated because I have worshiped or

909
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 2: glorified past thinner versions of myself. But then when I

910
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 2: think back to how I was doing at that.

911
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 1: Time, iel miserable.

912
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 2: I was really unhappy and so lonely. Just to know

913
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 2: that that's a societal problem, like the society is colluding

914
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:33,240
Speaker 2: with the aneractic thinking, it's not just on an individual level,

915
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 2: and just to understand kind of the etymology of all

916
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: of it was really helpful for me, much less so

917
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 2: than it and it wasn't in a way that was

918
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 2: triggering to intellectualize all of this.

919
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

920
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

921
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

922
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: reach out. You can leave a short message at six

923
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 1: h nine five P one two five five five, or

924
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would

925
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

926
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

927
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

928
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

929
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

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Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call,

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Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

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Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

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