1
00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:03,880
Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeart Radio and fair

2
00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:22,840
Speaker 1: Weather Friends Media. Today's episode of On Theme we might

3
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:24,480
Speaker 1: regret this episode later.

4
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:58,800
Speaker 2: Ah coom look alike to me.

5
00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:13,039
Speaker 1: I'm Katie and I'm Eves, And today's story starts with regret.

6
00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,400
Speaker 3: Oh, so we're gonna go d with this one? Should

7
00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:16,360
Speaker 3: I grab some tissues?

8
00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,160
Speaker 1: I mean, a little bit of soul searching and accountability

9
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:21,720
Speaker 1: is required to write this rut.

10
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,839
Speaker 3: So okay, I'm ready, I'm ready.

11
00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,800
Speaker 1: So you know, we talked in a previous episode about

12
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,840
Speaker 1: how art making really forces us to try in public,

13
00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,479
Speaker 1: and sometimes we're happy with the outcome of that process,

14
00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,520
Speaker 1: but sometimes we don't love what comes out of the

15
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,200
Speaker 1: other end. Sometimes we want to stuff it in the

16
00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 1: back of a dark drawer, or bury it under ten

17
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 1: feet of dense Georgia clay, or better yet, pretend like

18
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 1: it never even existed. But because we can't turn back

19
00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,040
Speaker 1: the clock, we are forced to live with our regret.

20
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,040
Speaker 1: So rather than treat the shameful work like a beautiful

21
00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,240
Speaker 1: baby that we birthed into a harsh, harsh world, might

22
00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,680
Speaker 1: choose to disown it instead treat it like in a

23
00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:03,760
Speaker 1: strange child.

24
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,880
Speaker 3: You know that sounds dramatic, but it is kind of

25
00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,720
Speaker 3: that serious folks will put a lot of time and

26
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:10,920
Speaker 3: effort into some of their creations and then be ashamed

27
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:12,840
Speaker 3: of them or whish they never created them in the

28
00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:13,400
Speaker 3: first place.

29
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,720
Speaker 1: Are you speaking from experience, Katie? Are you the folks

30
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:17,320
Speaker 1: you speak of?

31
00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,200
Speaker 3: I'm not too proud of it that there's no work

32
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,359
Speaker 3: or too or several in my past that I wish

33
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,200
Speaker 3: would have never seen the law to day for real?

34
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,600
Speaker 1: And which ones are those?

35
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:28,639
Speaker 2: Uh?

36
00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,799
Speaker 3: You ain't gonna ask me the question, would you care

37
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,240
Speaker 3: to tell everyone about your most embarrassing pieces?

38
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:35,560
Speaker 1: Nah? Honestly not.

39
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,119
Speaker 3: I think I'm good exactly.

40
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:38,160
Speaker 4: You know.

41
00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,919
Speaker 1: It could be cathartic, though, And the thing is we're

42
00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,640
Speaker 1: not alone in our artistic regret. There are plenty of

43
00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,880
Speaker 1: people who have put things out for eyes and ears

44
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 1: and hearts and minds to enjoy and then poop poot

45
00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 1: them later.

46
00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's not always about poor judgment or bad

47
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,680
Speaker 3: are either. It can be way more complicated than that.

48
00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,480
Speaker 1: For sure. And it could just be that we get

49
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,520
Speaker 1: older in our perspectives shift.

50
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,919
Speaker 3: Or it could be that whatever message we are trying

51
00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,200
Speaker 3: to convey no longer says right with us.

52
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,680
Speaker 1: Or it could be that the quality of the art

53
00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,160
Speaker 1: doesn't hold up to our current standard.

54
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,840
Speaker 3: Or maybe we worked with the collaborator who's no longer

55
00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 3: our favorite person.

56
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,720
Speaker 1: You get it. The reasons abound, but regret can hit

57
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,920
Speaker 1: a little differently when you're a black artist. From the

58
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,920
Speaker 1: jump in our art in storytelling, we can be forced

59
00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,760
Speaker 1: into certain roles, expected to act certain ways and talk

60
00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,960
Speaker 1: about certain things. We're stereotyped and we're type cast. We've

61
00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,880
Speaker 1: taken opportunities when we were hard up and jobbed. We're

62
00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,480
Speaker 1: few and far between, and we say and we say,

63
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,880
Speaker 1: you felt that one, didn't you? I know that I

64
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,640
Speaker 1: need and you are not alone in that. And we

65
00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,720
Speaker 1: say things about race before our thoughts have fully matured

66
00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,960
Speaker 1: or evolved. We stared down our own internalized racism.

67
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,240
Speaker 3: We're human, We make mistakes, we grow, we change our

68
00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:00,160
Speaker 3: minds period.

69
00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 1: And does that get even more complicated when you're dealing

70
00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,600
Speaker 1: with societies that have lots of hang ups around race,

71
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,520
Speaker 1: Ones that love and hate to talk about race at

72
00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,080
Speaker 1: the same damn time. Ones We're feelings about blackness and

73
00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,799
Speaker 1: black people change on a dime, And sometimes we regret

74
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,480
Speaker 1: work that did not age well in the race Department,

75
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,120
Speaker 1: And that can be a heavy pill to swallow, because

76
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,400
Speaker 1: a law can we carry the burden of race on

77
00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,800
Speaker 1: our shoulders. We ain't even have nothing to do with

78
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,760
Speaker 1: this construction in the first place, But that regret can

79
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,480
Speaker 1: feel pretty icky. But after that feeling has settled in

80
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,880
Speaker 1: and we've come to terms with the fact that we've

81
00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,840
Speaker 1: done something we're not fully rocking with anymore, we get

82
00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,080
Speaker 1: the chance to choose how we're going to reckon with

83
00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,680
Speaker 1: our regret. And this is where we get to the

84
00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,480
Speaker 1: story of Ernest Hogan.

85
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,960
Speaker 4: Part one, Ernest's Regret, Ernest Hegan.

86
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:11,000
Speaker 1: You remember that song that we heard up top. That's

87
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,400
Speaker 1: the song that Ernest Hogan, a black man born just

88
00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,119
Speaker 1: a couple of months before Juneteenth in eighteen sixty five,

89
00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 1: composed and wrote. But we'll come back to that song later.

90
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,000
Speaker 1: So Ernest Hogan was born with the name Ernest Rubin

91
00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,839
Speaker 1: Crotis Junior, but he later started using the last name

92
00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,400
Speaker 1: Hogan for reasons that remained mysterious. One of many guesses

93
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,880
Speaker 1: is that he took the name Hogan to capitalize on

94
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 1: the popularity of Irish performers at the time. But whether

95
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,599
Speaker 1: that's true or not, and beyond if it was that

96
00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,599
Speaker 1: his clever marketing skills. Hogan was a man of many talents.

97
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,440
Speaker 1: His work in the entertainment business began when he was

98
00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,480
Speaker 1: just a child. He was in the circus and traveling

99
00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 1: minstrual troops. He acted in performances of Uncle Tom's Cabin,

100
00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,400
Speaker 1: and eventually he moved on to vaudeville acts. Hogan busted

101
00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,920
Speaker 1: his chops on the stage, making it big with his performance.

102
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,919
Speaker 3: Proless okay quick break for definitions. Miss shows were performance

103
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,800
Speaker 3: in the eighteen hundreds where white actors in blackface would

104
00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 3: be caricatures of black people in comedic sketches, or so

105
00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,800
Speaker 3: they thought were funny, and was the case with Hogan.

106
00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,880
Speaker 3: There were also black minstrel performers in groups who were

107
00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,760
Speaker 3: also in blackface. So by the beginning of the twentieth century,

108
00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,520
Speaker 3: mister shows were not as popular as they were in

109
00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 3: the eighteen hundreds. And as you said, Bauville took that

110
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,360
Speaker 3: spotlight instead, and those shows contained a bunch of different

111
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,440
Speaker 3: acts like magic, comedy, dancing, singing. They was doing a lot.

112
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,479
Speaker 1: True true, Thank you for that breakdown, Katie, So Hogan,

113
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,200
Speaker 1: he had a lot of acclaim and the money followed too.

114
00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,120
Speaker 1: In nineteen oh one, he was reportedly one of the

115
00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,840
Speaker 1: highest paid Black Vautville entertainers of his time. So by

116
00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:49,760
Speaker 1: the end of the eighteen hundreds, Hogan had done his

117
00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,760
Speaker 1: laps around the business. He'd already made a noteworthy impact

118
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,560
Speaker 1: on stage performance in the United States. But another field

119
00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,920
Speaker 1: where he made his name was music. As authors Lynn

120
00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,400
Speaker 1: Abbott and Doug Saroff put it in the book Out

121
00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,119
Speaker 1: of Sight, The Rise of African American Popular Music eighteen

122
00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,520
Speaker 1: eighty nine to eighteen ninety five, quote Ernest Hogan was

123
00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,840
Speaker 1: a conspicuous player in RAGTIME's initial commercial inscendency end quote.

124
00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,800
Speaker 1: In fact, he was called the father of ragtime during

125
00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,600
Speaker 1: his life. The people recognized Hogan's hand in the birth

126
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,880
Speaker 1: and the success of the musical genre, even though its

127
00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,560
Speaker 1: origins preceded his published works. In it, ragtime music is

128
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:37,720
Speaker 1: usually performed on the piano. Think of this. Hogan published

129
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,040
Speaker 1: Lapa malaw in eighteen ninety five and called it a

130
00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,400
Speaker 1: rag The song even had a dance to go with it.

131
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,160
Speaker 1: The lyrics went like this, hand upon your head, let

132
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,680
Speaker 1: your mind roll far back back back and look at

133
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,400
Speaker 1: the stars. Stand up rightly, dance it brightly. That's the

134
00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,800
Speaker 1: pass ma law ay sounds familiar.

135
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,120
Speaker 3: I could think of a few songs from the early

136
00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 3: they used a similar formula.

137
00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,160
Speaker 1: Because we were in the cafeteria dancing to their tailors.

138
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:08,640
Speaker 4: Girl.

139
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,440
Speaker 1: It was an era, but yes, lapal Mala was a hit. Still,

140
00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,080
Speaker 1: it didn't create quite the buzz that the song Hogan

141
00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:16,280
Speaker 1: released the next year.

142
00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 4: Did.

143
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,400
Speaker 3: Let me guess that's the song we heard at the

144
00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:20,440
Speaker 3: beginning of this episode.

145
00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,200
Speaker 1: Hmm, exactly. So we'll get into it after the break

146
00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,160
Speaker 1: and we're back and we're coming in hot with coon

147
00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,720
Speaker 1: songs sounds like my kind of diddy. I stop playing.

148
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,000
Speaker 1: We are being serious here, Okay, okay, I'm trying to

149
00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:43,200
Speaker 1: give the people a history.

150
00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:44,680
Speaker 3: I I'll buy note.

151
00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,960
Speaker 1: So, coon songs were kind of like minstrel shows in

152
00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,720
Speaker 1: music form. They featured stereotypes of black people, and in

153
00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,160
Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties these songs were set to ragtime music

154
00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,520
Speaker 1: and ooh Katie. So called coon songs had a moment.

155
00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,360
Speaker 1: White folks ate these songs up the black dialect, the

156
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,200
Speaker 1: positioning of black folks as inferior, black life being the

157
00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,720
Speaker 1: butt of the joke, all wrapped up in the neat

158
00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,959
Speaker 1: package of a jolly little tune that can be enjoyed

159
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,720
Speaker 1: on a sunny Southern morning. Most cone songs were composed

160
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 1: by white people, but many were created by black folks,

161
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,680
Speaker 1: and these songs were super popular in the late nineteenth

162
00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,040
Speaker 1: century and into the early twentieth The sheet music sold

163
00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,920
Speaker 1: really well, allowing white folks to perform the songs themselves

164
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,040
Speaker 1: and to ingest and reproduce the stereotypes portrayed in them.

165
00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,320
Speaker 1: Of course, black folks had a lot of feelings about

166
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:43,160
Speaker 1: coon songs. They perpetuated negative caricatures of Black people, and

167
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:48,360
Speaker 1: they reinforced racism. White folks sung these syrupy, lively songs,

168
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,440
Speaker 1: happily pleased to say words out loud that disparaged black folks.

169
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,840
Speaker 1: Black and white people were so called coon shouters aka

170
00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,800
Speaker 1: singers of these songs, but white women got the most

171
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,400
Speaker 1: notoriety from singing these numbers. Some black critics and musicians

172
00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,839
Speaker 1: rejected kum songs as harmful and crude. Others acknowledged how

173
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 1: they were crafted and performed skillfully about black entertainers, and

174
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,480
Speaker 1: that they had gained popularity worldwide. So these songs gave

175
00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,319
Speaker 1: black entertainers opportunities, and they were testaments to their musical skill.

176
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,199
Speaker 1: But what what was the cost of that.

177
00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:25,400
Speaker 3: It just shows that we'd be talking about the same

178
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,079
Speaker 3: stuff over and over, like has there been a new conversation,

179
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,440
Speaker 3: because it really reminds me of like, do you remember

180
00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:37,120
Speaker 3: when Shotty low Ipraphy he was trying to have a

181
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,600
Speaker 3: reality TV show called All My Baby Mamas.

182
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,080
Speaker 1: I don't remember that. That sounds like parody, and I

183
00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:43,839
Speaker 1: don't remember that.

184
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,120
Speaker 3: Nigga's a protested why people were mad. They're like, oh

185
00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,680
Speaker 3: my god, this is like showing stereotypes. Dad da da

186
00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,640
Speaker 3: da okay, And like five years later, here come the

187
00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,520
Speaker 3: Duggers with all twenty million of their kids and they

188
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,120
Speaker 3: sexually assault on folks and stuff. White people were like,

189
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,320
Speaker 3: let them cook, but like Black people were like, oh,

190
00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,240
Speaker 3: this is like so bad. It seems like it's an

191
00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,880
Speaker 3: example of that in every art form, like whether it's

192
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,760
Speaker 3: reality TV, which we can like argue the merits of

193
00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:13,160
Speaker 3: its artfulness, but even like urban fiction that first of.

194
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,959
Speaker 1: All, urban fiction held us down throughout the middle school years.

195
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,080
Speaker 3: Oh my god, we was passing in books site. But

196
00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,880
Speaker 3: like during Bill Cutton's campaign he went after urban fiction,

197
00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,439
Speaker 3: talking about Sister Soldia in particular.

198
00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:28,520
Speaker 1: I don't remember that.

199
00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,560
Speaker 3: It's like do I think, like, as you said, white

200
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,760
Speaker 3: people should be getting like rich off of singing coon songs. No,

201
00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,760
Speaker 3: but like should black people maybe.

202
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, which also I mean there's a whole layer of

203
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,040
Speaker 1: respectability of politics that's involved in it.

204
00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:45,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

205
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,080
Speaker 1: Us wanted to look good in front of massive Essentially

206
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,000
Speaker 1: how we choose to express ourselves out in public being

207
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,280
Speaker 1: something that's highly policed by us ourselves, and here in

208
00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,120
Speaker 1: returns the internalized racism.

209
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,160
Speaker 3: But I mean, when you're when you've been police for

210
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,000
Speaker 3: so long, you can take the police away because there's

211
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,880
Speaker 3: a cop that lives in your head exactly.

212
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,440
Speaker 1: It's subsumed as part of you now. And of course,

213
00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,840
Speaker 1: like I don't want to minimize that, because these are

214
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,600
Speaker 1: questions that we should be asking. It's just that so

215
00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:20,240
Speaker 1: frequently we turn to this more so authoritative or definitive

216
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,040
Speaker 1: way of looking at it rather than Okay, let's sit

217
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,680
Speaker 1: down and think about the nuances of this should we

218
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,320
Speaker 1: be doing or should we not? And I think that

219
00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,840
Speaker 1: also comes down to the conversations that we should be

220
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,120
Speaker 1: having in public, and that conversations that should be happening

221
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,400
Speaker 1: in private. But these coon songs are already something that

222
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,200
Speaker 1: are so widely disseminated that they have their own gravity

223
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,600
Speaker 1: at that point. So I can see how much turmoil

224
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,920
Speaker 1: that causes in us collectively and individually because they've taken

225
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,160
Speaker 1: on this life of their own. And it's like it's

226
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,000
Speaker 1: so many things, because there's also the layer of us

227
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,360
Speaker 1: choosing to and wanting to share our work beyond ourselves

228
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,800
Speaker 1: and not being able to control how other people use it.

229
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,960
Speaker 3: I think it has a lot to do with shame too.

230
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,520
Speaker 3: I'm trying to be empathetic for the people who are like,

231
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,120
Speaker 3: we need to like not do this anymore, because I'm

232
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,080
Speaker 3: trying to think, has there been an occasion where I

233
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,120
Speaker 3: heard some piece of music or a movie or something

234
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,280
Speaker 3: where I'm like, this should not be allowed And I

235
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,720
Speaker 3: can't really think of one because there's just so many

236
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,240
Speaker 3: people in the world. It's like some people can do

237
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,520
Speaker 3: this coon shit, and some people can do like more

238
00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,600
Speaker 3: like you know, things that I would want to listen

239
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,880
Speaker 3: to or watch or read. Stereotypes have truth in them,

240
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,439
Speaker 3: so like if you're ashamed that you like watermelon, it's

241
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:40,359
Speaker 3: a reflection.

242
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:40,720
Speaker 1: Is what you're saying.

243
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:46,280
Speaker 3: You know, It's like okay, like eat your watermelon, It's okay.

244
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:48,800
Speaker 3: But I think it's like that shame and like that

245
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:50,960
Speaker 3: respectability that you talked about, Like, oh, like, we can't

246
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,240
Speaker 3: do this thing because it's perceived this way, even if

247
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:54,760
Speaker 3: it's not a bad thing. So yeah, I'm trying to

248
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,360
Speaker 3: be empathetic for the people who were kind of cool

249
00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,600
Speaker 3: on the coon songs and like trying to shut them down.

250
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, we know that a black man composed and wrote this, Like,

251
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,000
Speaker 1: now what do we do with it? Which I don't

252
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:06,439
Speaker 1: know still hasn't been answered, but.

253
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,160
Speaker 3: It sounds like Ernest Hogan had some thoughts.

254
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,160
Speaker 1: He did he did, So now we've arrived at the

255
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,199
Speaker 1: song the object of Hogan's regret, all coons look alike

256
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:21,120
Speaker 1: to me subtitled A Darky Misunderstanding. First of all, I

257
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:21,960
Speaker 1: love that subtitle.

258
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,120
Speaker 3: Ray He's like, in case she did not understand.

259
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,840
Speaker 5: All coons look alike to me, I've got love the ball.

260
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,520
Speaker 3: So to some up the story of the song, the narrator,

261
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,840
Speaker 3: who's a black man, has a significant other named Lucy,

262
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 3: but she's not worried about him because she got a

263
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,240
Speaker 3: new man who treats her even better. Plus, all coons

264
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,040
Speaker 3: black men look the same to her anyway, so it

265
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,200
Speaker 3: doesn't even matter which one she chooses. The narrator, on

266
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,640
Speaker 3: the other hand, has not moved on. He doesn't understand

267
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,160
Speaker 3: her change of heart, and he's hurt by what she said.

268
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 1: Rightfully so, Hogan died of tuberculosis in nineteen oh nine,

269
00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 1: but of course the impact of his work and so

270
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,520
Speaker 1: called Coon song in general lived on. Let me be clear,

271
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,480
Speaker 1: I am not interested in belittling his accomplishments in stage

272
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,080
Speaker 1: work are pioneer status in ragtime, But I am interested

273
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,920
Speaker 1: in Hogan's feelings about all coons look alike to me

274
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,120
Speaker 1: after he released it to the world. In the book

275
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,920
Speaker 1: One hundred Years of the Negro in show Business by

276
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,040
Speaker 1: fellow Black vaudeville entertainer Tom Fletcher, Fletcher talks about a

277
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,840
Speaker 1: conversation that he had with Hogan. According to Fletcher, Hogan

278
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,400
Speaker 1: said that the word kon was controversial, sure, but it

279
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 1: made him money at a time when making money was hard,

280
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,600
Speaker 1: and it put some money in many other entertainer's pockets too,

281
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,520
Speaker 1: And he said it injected more life into show business.

282
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,400
Speaker 1: He pointed out how people went on to do their

283
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,440
Speaker 1: own versions of the song without the word koon. I

284
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:56,120
Speaker 1: put it on, and he acknowledged the musicians who played

285
00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,320
Speaker 1: Ragtime in back rooms, but never published their work. His

286
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,840
Speaker 1: Ragtime Songs controversy over the content, notwithstanding documented a history

287
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,200
Speaker 1: that could have been lost or at least fallen by

288
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,680
Speaker 1: the wayside, had he not produced them. Fletcher paraphrased Hogan

289
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,520
Speaker 1: in the book quote, with nothing but time on my hands. Now,

290
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,920
Speaker 1: I often wonder if I was right or wrong. So

291
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,880
Speaker 1: the thing that my mind is really pondering is the

292
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,640
Speaker 1: fact that his name followed the recording everywhere, Like everything

293
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,160
Speaker 1: you see in On, no matter who's sang it is

294
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,440
Speaker 1: like this was composed by Ernest Hogan. So there were

295
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,480
Speaker 1: many others who sang it, but we knew who it

296
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,440
Speaker 1: was attributed to, and he just can't escape that reputation.

297
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,920
Speaker 1: No matter what context is being presented in. Even if

298
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,440
Speaker 1: there is conversation around the complexity of his legacy, the

299
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,560
Speaker 1: issue with it being a Kon song and the word

300
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,800
Speaker 1: Kon and the context of it all is still the

301
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 1: starting point of that conversation. Today, I feel a way

302
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 1: even talking about him now because it's like, yes, I

303
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,360
Speaker 1: still get to talk about him, his very important legacy,

304
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,119
Speaker 1: all that he accomplished, But the starting point of this

305
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,359
Speaker 1: conversation is still about that work and the regret.

306
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's probably like rolling around his grave that we're

307
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,320
Speaker 3: talking about him like this, right hery is I got

308
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:20,400
Speaker 3: wrote other shit took.

309
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 1: Another example of this kind of race related regret that

310
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,560
Speaker 1: falls on the shoulders of black storytellers is Octavia Butler's

311
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,280
Speaker 1: novel Survivor.

312
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,560
Speaker 4: Part two Octavia is Regret.

313
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 1: Survivor was published in nineteen seventy eight is part of

314
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,920
Speaker 1: her Patterness series, which also includes the books Pattern master

315
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,600
Speaker 1: Mind of My Mind while Seed and Clay's Arc, but

316
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,320
Speaker 1: Survivor wasn't included in the series its compilation Seet to

317
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,760
Speaker 1: Harvest that was published in two thousand and seven. That's

318
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,080
Speaker 1: because Butler didn't want anything to do with Survivor after

319
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,359
Speaker 1: it was released. Survivor is set on another planet. The

320
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,800
Speaker 1: book revolves around Alana, who was adopted by the Missionaries.

321
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,200
Speaker 1: The Missionaries are a group of Christian humans who left

322
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,160
Speaker 1: Earth due to the threat of the Clay Arc plague.

323
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 1: The native inhabitants of the planet, the Cone, have fur

324
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,000
Speaker 1: and can change colors, but they are relatively human like.

325
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,680
Speaker 1: Their social roles are determined by their fur color, and

326
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,119
Speaker 1: there are rival tribes of Cone on the planet and

327
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,199
Speaker 1: Alana ends up having to negotiate her way between the

328
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,200
Speaker 1: missionaries and the two tribes in order to help save

329
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,960
Speaker 1: the missionaries. Of course, folks have different feelings about the book.

330
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,840
Speaker 1: There are readers that have recognized its merits and its flaws.

331
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,480
Speaker 1: They've respected Butler's wish for it never to be reprinted,

332
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 1: and also said that it deserves a reprint. But regardless

333
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,879
Speaker 1: of the criticism and pray, Butler did not like the novel.

334
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,119
Speaker 1: She expressed this feeling in multiple interviews. In nineteen ninety,

335
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 1: Randall Keenan interviewed Octavia Butler over the phone for the

336
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:15,160
Speaker 1: journal Kalalou. One of the things that I was most

337
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 1: embarrassed about in my novel Survivor is my human characters

338
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,240
Speaker 1: going off to another planet and finding other people they

339
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,439
Speaker 1: could immediately start having children with. Later, I thought, oh, well,

340
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,040
Speaker 1: you can't really erase embarrassing early work, but you don't

341
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,240
Speaker 1: have to repeat it. Octavia didn't erase it, but she

342
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,479
Speaker 1: did make sure it wasn't disseminated much more widely than

343
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,679
Speaker 1: it already was. She thought that the book wasn't finished

344
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,200
Speaker 1: yet when she sold it to Double Day. She even

345
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 1: said at one point that she sold it because she

346
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 1: needed money to travel to do research for her other work,

347
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,080
Speaker 1: a little book you might have heard of called Kindred.

348
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,639
Speaker 1: She clearly wasn't proud of Survivor's treatment of race and species.

349
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,439
Speaker 1: This is what she said in an interview with Teresa

350
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:03,040
Speaker 1: Lyttleton for Amazon. When I was young, a lot of

351
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,400
Speaker 1: people wrote about going to another world and finding either

352
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,440
Speaker 1: little green men or little brown men, and they were

353
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,120
Speaker 1: always less in some way. They were a little sly

354
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,400
Speaker 1: or a little like the natives in a very bad

355
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 1: old movie. And I thought, no way, apart from all

356
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 1: these human beings populating the galaxy, this is really offensive garbage.

357
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,679
Speaker 1: People ask me why I don't like Survivor, my third novel,

358
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 1: and it's because it feels a little bit like that

359
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,400
Speaker 1: some humans go up to another world and immediately begin

360
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 1: meeting with the aliens and having children with them. I

361
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:45,240
Speaker 1: think of it as my star Trek novel. Making art

362
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,640
Speaker 1: is hard, and we can be our own worst critics,

363
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 1: and Butler did her fair share of publicly and privately

364
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,159
Speaker 1: disavowing the book and asking people not to read it,

365
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,119
Speaker 1: but it lives on. In an essay based on a

366
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: talk that she gave in twenty eleven, writer and activist

367
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 1: Alexis Pauline says about the novel, definitively, we need it,

368
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 1: and I've seen that sentiment also said by other people

369
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 1: who have commented on the work. Octavia's regret was so

370
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 1: deep that she didn't want the work to be reproduced anymore.

371
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 1: This self censorship is pretty much the opposite of what

372
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: happened with Hogan's song, which made its way onto sheet

373
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 1: music prints and into the mouths of plenty of performers

374
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 1: across time and space. Butler wanted no more witnesses, wanted

375
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,199
Speaker 1: the story of Survivor to end there. But despite her

376
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 1: disdain and reasons for disliking the novel, many of the

377
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 1: people who did read it responded with consideration and thoughtfulness.

378
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 1: We're going to make work we don't love, and we

379
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,160
Speaker 1: can't control how people receive it. Both Hogan and Butler's

380
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 1: stories feel like exercises in letting go, but from opposite

381
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 1: ends of a spectrum.

382
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,880
Speaker 3: I wonder if the afterlife of these works deal with

383
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 3: the amount of autonomy like Octavia Butler had as opposed

384
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 3: to Ernest Hogan, they lived in different times and spaces,

385
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 3: and I mean by that point she was a well

386
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 3: known writer, and we you know, had gained significantly more

387
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 3: rights at that point, so she was able to censor

388
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 3: it to a certain extent. But like you said, Hogan's

389
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 3: just went on and despite him like, hey, I don't

390
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 3: like this song anymore. It's also very like comforting to

391
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 3: know that someone like as talented as Octavia Butler was like,

392
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 3: I was just doing this for check so I could

393
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 3: do the thing I really wanted to do, And it

394
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 3: sounds like she knew was like, Okay, these are the

395
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,199
Speaker 3: books that were popular when I was a kid, Like,

396
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 3: let me just write one because I know it'll sell.

397
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 3: And I guess not really thinking too far into the

398
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 3: future of like, oh, like then I won't want people

399
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 3: to read it, though.

400
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 1: But I wonder how much of that processing was happening

401
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 1: while she was writing it versus once it's published, because

402
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: at that point she had an opportunity to see how

403
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: people did respond to it. And it's one of those

404
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: things too, where you can't control how people receive it.

405
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: But I think that in this case, there is a

406
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: lot of ambiguity, way more ambiguity in her work than

407
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 1: there was in Hogan's. Like the conversation around race colonialism, captivity,

408
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: all of the things that come up in this work,

409
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: and so so many more.

410
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 3: It is, like, I think, easier to misinterpret.

411
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: I think in the case of Octavia Butler's work is

412
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 1: more of a situation where the more you think about it,

413
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: the more many different ways you can flip it. Because

414
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 1: it's a plot, it's in its own genre, and there

415
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: are so many ways you can take it. Versus Ernest

416
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: Hogan's song was like a very straightforward plot. If we

417
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 1: think of it in terms of storytelling, it's not that

418
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: hard to follow versus how we can you can choose

419
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: to take one way down the road versus another way

420
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: down the road. When we think about things in Octavia Butler's.

421
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 3: Novel, right, I think people will misinterpret things all the time,

422
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 3: or like ascribe certain metaphors or meanings when there really

423
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 3: isn't any. But I think when that happens, and it's

424
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 3: like on the positive side, the author will be like, yee.

425
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 1: Ye, I thought, was it that sound good enough? Regret

426
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: HiT's different. In the Internet age, stuff lives on and

427
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 1: it's not ever going away. We have scream shots, ar

428
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 1: coved web pages, secret recordings, all kinds of receipts, so

429
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: it's easy for us to be reminded of our regrets.

430
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 3: I think with the Internet, the regrets cycle is probably

431
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 3: much quicker, just because once you put something out there,

432
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 3: there are you know, blogs that can like write something

433
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 3: about it, there's people on social media who can comment,

434
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 3: and you see it in real time, like it gets

435
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 3: flashed on your phone. You see the person like you

436
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 3: can basically see the person typing it out with the

437
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 3: little dots like oh this sucks or whatever, or oh

438
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 3: like this is so problematic or whatever the case may be.

439
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 3: And then you know, depending on how big your audiences,

440
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 3: that criticism might be on like the front pages of

441
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 3: New York Times, you'd.

442
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 4: Be like, oh damn.

443
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 3: But that being said, I think the regret is probably

444
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 3: more instantaneous because of the Internet. But I don't know

445
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 3: if the artist expresses that regret because I feel like

446
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 3: people be like very defensive.

447
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: So this makes me think of Viola Davis in the

448
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: twenty eleven movie The Help, which is based on a

449
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: novel of the same name by a white woman named

450
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: Catherine Stockett.

451
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 4: Part three, Viola's Regret.

452
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: Go and google Viola Davis The Help, and you'll find

453
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: plenty of articles written over several years talking about how

454
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: she has misgivings about the story and taking the role.

455
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you haven't read or watched The Help,

456
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 3: I'll sum it up for you. The story said in

457
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 3: nineteen sixties Mississippi. In it, a white woman named Skeeter

458
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 3: collects the stories of black domestic workers for a book

459
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 3: that she's writing. The workers are treated poorly, and part

460
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 3: of Skeeter's mission is to expose this treatment. Once she

461
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 3: gets enough of the workers to open up, she finishes

462
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 3: the book, publishes it anonymously, and gives the profits to

463
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 3: the workers. Yola Davis plays Abilene Clark. Her character is

464
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: the film's narrator and a nanny who raises a white

465
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 3: socialized child. In the end, she leaves her job and

466
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 3: decides to become a writer.

467
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 6: No one that ever asks me what it feels like

468
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 6: to be me. Once I told the truth about that,

469
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 6: I felt free.

470
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 3: The movie was criticized for its white saviorism and its

471
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,479
Speaker 3: forefronting of the white characters versus the black one that

472
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 3: the plot was actually focused on. In an interview with

473
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 3: Vanity Fair Viola, Davis talked about the conflicting feelings that

474
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 3: she had about the help. She felt like, quote, it

475
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: wasn't the voices of the maids that were heard.

476
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 7: Playing a maid in twenty and eleven, and you know

477
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 7: my Hattie McDaniel and Butterfly McQueen. It was like, that

478
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 7: was just so a part of how I saw it.

479
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 7: I saw stereotype, and I didn't want to put that

480
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 7: out there. I didn't want to be kind of blasted

481
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 7: by the African American community, especially to be totally honest,

482
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 7: but there is no way that you can read this

483
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 7: book and look at the script, and even look at

484
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 7: this movie and say that anyone was a stereotype.

485
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: In that interview, you can hear her really wrestling with

486
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: so many things, the history of black women in film

487
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: playing stereotypical roles, her admiration for black actors who came

488
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: before her, like Hattie McDaniel and Butterfly me queen, her

489
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: desire to play characters that are a round and complicated,

490
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: her hesitance to play a character that could be viewed

491
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: as tasteless or flat, her fear about receiving negative criticism

492
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: from black audience members, and her desire to take roles

493
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: that are meaningful, challenging, and worthy. Of her time in legacy.

494
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: She clearly wanted to make good art be part of

495
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: a story that was told.

496
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 4: Well.

497
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, And in that last part where she talks about

498
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 3: how the characters are not stereotypes in the book, it

499
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: takes you back to Hogan's regret, how there were definitely

500
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 3: stereotypes in Hogan's music and Coon songs in general, but

501
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 3: he recognized that the situation wasn't so black and white.

502
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 3: But at the same time, it was like they felt

503
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: the way of the race on their shoulders. They felt

504
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 3: some sort of responsibility for representing the race well, being

505
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 3: good black stewards, not disappointing the Black delegation. Davis even

506
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 3: said in a twenty eighteen New York Times interview, the

507
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 3: responsibility of feeling like I am the great black female

508
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 3: hope for women of color has been a real professional challenge.

509
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 3: Being that role model and picking up that baton when

510
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 3: you're struggling in your own life has been difficult.

511
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: I really wish that we could release this weight for real.

512
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 3: This predicament does also make me think, though, of the

513
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 3: difference between regretting your own work versus regretting being in

514
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 3: a part of someone else's. What do you mean by that, Like,

515
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: I feel like it probably hits different for Viola Davis

516
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 3: to be in like these white people's movie portraying the stereotype.

517
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 3: Like maybe if you wrote it and you're like, okay,

518
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 3: that was like in bad taste, or like I didn't

519
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 3: know enough and it was my thing and you can

520
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: kind of take full ownership over it, versus like I

521
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 3: was low key just like a pod and I'm embarrassed

522
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 3: now and you feel all this weight for like disappointing

523
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 3: Black people are not like portraying black people how you

524
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 3: wanted to or you think we should be portrayed, and

525
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 3: he was just like an employee.

526
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. I can't speak for a Viola Davis, but I

527
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: would imagine that's probably a different kind of shame. I

528
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: guess if shame would be the word to use, because

529
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: I guess the decision making was different. When you're writing

530
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: your own work or creating your own work, then you're

531
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: able to make those decisions at every step of the way.

532
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: But when you're stepping into something that has been fully

533
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: formed already and you're just one piece of the puzzle

534
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: in the entire ty of the image, then I can

535
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: see what you mean.

536
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I don't know, have you heard of

537
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 3: that movie called The Best of Enemies? So Taraji p

538
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 3: Hinson is in it, and people kind of had the

539
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 3: same criticism. So it's like about this black woman who

540
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 3: befriends uh Kukuks clan member and they like form this

541
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 3: like unlikely duo.

542
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: First of all, I'm not you're making this sound like

543
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: a buddy comedy.

544
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 4: And try out.

545
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 3: The way that the black woman that Taraji p Hinson

546
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 3: is playing and Atwater is portrayed is just like this

547
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 3: a you know, like there's no depth. She's just like

548
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 3: there as like a placeholder when she was like a

549
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 3: whole civil rights activist. But like when people pointed that

550
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: out to Taraji, she was very like defensive about it,

551
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 3: like she didn't publicly she didn't get it. So I mean,

552
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: I think kudos to Viola Davis for like publicly saying

553
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 3: like I wouldn't do this again, and like people be

554
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 3: thinking like actors are super rich and they can like

555
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 3: turn down any job. That is not the case for

556
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 3: a lot of people. And I think especially for Viola

557
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 3: Davis back in twenty eleven, like now she's noticed this

558
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 3: like huge actress, but like going back in the time Machine,

559
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 3: Like did she feel empowered to be like, no, I'm

560
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 3: not going to take this, Like I'm good financially without

561
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: this role.

562
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

563
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: And one thing that just came up for me is

564
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: how I think, from the outside looking in this, what

565
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: Viola Davis did and also going back to Hogan, what

566
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: he did can feel like very safe bets. Like I

567
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: think if somebody looking at the help would be like,

568
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: that's a very safe role of you to take, and

569
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: at the same time, it's like also not a safe

570
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: role to take, because Viola Davis herself knowledged how difficult

571
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: it could be for her to take this because she

572
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: knew all of the context of the role, all the

573
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: trappings that a role like that could come with, and

574
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: the backlash that she could receive for it. And it

575
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: was the same for Hogan because it was a very

576
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: safe thing to do because minstrel cy was already very

577
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: popular thing. Yeah, and he knew that in creating this

578
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: song he could have a hit that many people enjoyed.

579
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: So it was like a balance between safety and risk

580
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: that they were teetering on this tight rope across a canyon. Okay, imagery.

581
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: I also think like about the popularity of certain things,

582
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 3: like how does that impact her regret? Because The Help

583
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 3: was a very popular movie. It was a very popular

584
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 3: buck and became a very popular movie. And it's like

585
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 3: if you just did like an indie film, then I

586
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 3: many people saw, but it was the same thing. Would

587
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: you still feel that regret or like, are you feeling

588
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 3: that regret because of it's like the echo chamber of

589
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 3: people like commenting on it and like more people can

590
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 3: see you doing this thing.

591
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: I think echo chamber is a perfect way to put it,

592
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: because I think it's an amplification of that feeling most

593
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: likely because if I have a feeling that's personal, I

594
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: know how that feels in my body and how to

595
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: handle it. But when that feeling is exacerbated because I

596
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: have a bunch of other people basically affirming that feeling,

597
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 1: I would imagine it's a lot bigger. And especially when

598
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: you're a person who's as big as Viola Davis is

599
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: in a movie as big as The Help is, So

600
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: can't feel good. And another thing that I will say

601
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: about that too, speaking of amplification, is that it wasn't

602
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: just once that she addressed it or that people asked

603
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: her about it, right I wonder what it was like

604
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: for her to say that out loud repeatedly.

605
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 3: I think it's also freeing, like as a up and

606
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 3: coming actor who may like really look up to Viola

607
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 3: Davis like see her doing that too, Yeah, because it

608
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 3: could be, you know, what someone needs to hear so

609
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 3: that they don't get into a role that they suspect

610
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 3: they might regret later, or also like, Okay, I did

611
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 3: this thing that I regret. It's not the end of

612
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 3: the world. I can like build upon my body of

613
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 3: work and like that's not the thing that I'm truly

614
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 3: like known for.

615
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: I love that you said that, because I don't think

616
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: there's an answer to this question that we've posed around

617
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: what does regret look like in public? For black people

618
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: who are facing race related regret in their work, It's

619
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: something that has to be worked through in every single instance,

620
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 1: and clearly, like seeing other people talk about it out

621
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: loud in the way that they process it can be

622
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: something that's helpful for other people. And I don't know

623
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: if we can put that in a neat little bow. Yeah,

624
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: you know, these aren't the last times that this is

625
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: going to happen, Absolutely not, because can't be expected to

626
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: be perfect or to know everything about race. When we

627
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: create work and we're trying to do it authentically and

628
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: fearlessly and lovingly, then things aren't always gonna come out

629
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 1: right true.

630
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: I regret this episode.

631
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: But seriously, we might even regret it a little bit

632
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: more now because we convince someone to sing all coons

633
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: look alike to me? Talk about a COONa having trouble.

634
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: I think I have enough fumone.

635
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,919
Speaker 5: It's all about my Lucy Jenny's stubble, and she has

636
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 5: caused my heart. Mon, there's another COONa Baba from Virginia

637
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 5: in society.

638
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 4: He's the leader of the day.

639
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 5: And now my honey, Galla's going to quit me. Yes,

640
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 5: she's gone andrew a this coon away.

641
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: She's no excuse to turn me loose.

642
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 3: I've been abused.

643
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 5: Now I'm all confused because these words She then did say, Well.

644
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: All coons look alike to me.

645
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 5: I've gotten lother ball, you see, And he's just as

646
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 5: good to me as you Nick ever tried to be.

647
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 5: He spends his money efree, I know we can agree,

648
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 5: So I don't like you know how all coons look

649
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 5: alike to me?

650
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: The person you just heard singing that song was Coley Gilchrist,

651
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: and I couldn't let her leave without talking to her

652
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: about her experience of singing all coons look alike?

653
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 4: To me?

654
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 1: What kind of emotions come up in you when you

655
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: think about Ernest Hogan being a black man writing this

656
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 1: for white audiences.

657
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 5: It was off putting and it kind of felt a

658
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 5: bit like, you know, I was almost judging him and

659
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 5: thinking he was a bit of a traitor for just

660
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 5: saying those things about the black community and painting us

661
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 5: in this picture. And although it was kind of used

662
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 5: at black people's expense, he was trying to create a

663
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 5: name and probably sustain himself back.

664
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: In those times. So how did you feel singing it?

665
00:36:58,320 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: Just now?

666
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 5: It was a bit hard to to just get over

667
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 5: myself in a sense and to get those words out

668
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 5: in the atmosphere and kind of shake off, you know,

669
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 5: any feelings I had towards it.

670
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: But I think the biggest thing.

671
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 5: That helped me is just putting on that actress kind

672
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 5: of facade.

673
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: Do you have anything else to add in terms of

674
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: your feelings about this, I.

675
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 5: Would just say I would love to continue. This has

676
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 5: opened my eyes to a person and other people, other

677
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 5: writers like him, that I knew nothing about, but I

678
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 5: think it's important to continue to be a student as

679
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 5: an artist and to learn about basically your ancestors and music.

680
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: I think it's really good to continue to do.

681
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 5: Your research and learn, learn as much as you can.

682
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: Thank you to Coli Gilchrist for singing all Koons look

683
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: alike to me. Oh, and stick around through the credits

684
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: to hear Coli sing the rest of the.

685
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 3: Song all right time for my favorite and only segment

686
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 3: of this pot roll credits, Who What? When?

687
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 4: Where?

688
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 3: How would you like to give credit to you?

689
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: I like to give credit to braids.

690
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 3: Okay.

691
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 1: I have been wearing my hair in small braids that

692
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: I've had in for like a month now, I think,

693
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: and I just love how I don't have to do

694
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 1: anything to it. I'm not really thinking about how it looks.

695
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 1: I have to put so little energy our thought into it.

696
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: Braids are so versatile, they're so useful. They're coming in

697
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: so many different shapes and forms, and I'm thankful for

698
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: the brads that I have in my hair right now.

699
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: Shout out to braids.

700
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 3: Okay, I'd like to give credit to old friends. I've

701
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 3: had an old friend reach out, so shout out to you,

702
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 3: old friend.

703
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: I love it. That's it for today. See y'all next

704
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: week with another episode. On Theme is a production of

705
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and fair Weather Friends Media. This episode was written

706
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and

707
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us on Instagram at on

708
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: Theme Show. You can also send us an email at

709
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: hello at on Theme dot Show. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

710
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

711
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. Never said a word to hurt

712
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 1: the feelings.

713
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 5: I always bought a presence by the score, and now

714
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 5: my brain with sorrow, am or really because she won't

715
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 5: accept them anymore. If I treated how wrong she may

716
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 5: have left me like all the rest. She's gone and

717
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 5: let me down. If I'm lucky, I'm going to catch

718
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 5: my policy and win my sweet thing away from town

719
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 5: before I'm worried. Yes, I'm desperate and I've been joned

720
00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 5: and I'll get dangerous. Oh my, if these words she

721
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 5: says to me, well, all coons look alike to me.

722
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 5: I've got another ball, you see, and he's just as

723
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 5: good to me as you.

724
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 1: Nigga ever tried to be. He spends his money EF.

725
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 5: Free, and I know we can agree, So I don't

726
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 5: like you, know how all coons look alike to me,