1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. You talk to any prosecutor 2 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: that's been doing it for a while, and some of 3 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: the most memorable moments that they have in court is 4 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: when they've completed a case and they've got a conviction 5 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: and they are on the other side of the room 6 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: stands the individual that has now been charged, prosecuted and 7 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: stands to pay the price for their misdeeds. And the 8 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: prosecutors will tell you it runs a gamut. You never 9 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: know how anybody is going to react on any particular 10 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: day to a sentence. But for us today, we're going 11 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: to talk about an individual who may have thought he 12 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: was cheating the hangman. Today we're going to talk about 13 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: the death of Edward Leclair that actually begin at the 14 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: time of his sentencing in a Denton, Texas courtroom. I'm 15 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. For those of 16 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: you listening to my voice today, I have to just 17 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: remind you that if there is anyone either listening or 18 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: if you have a friend that is dealing with thoughts 19 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: of self harm suicide, there is help for you, and 20 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: that help can be found at the National Suicide Prevention 21 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:42,919 Speaker 1: Lifeline and that number is one eight hundred two seventy 22 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: three eight two five five. That's eight hundred two seventy three. 23 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: Talk t a l K. Joining me today is my 24 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: good buddy Dave mac Dave's crime reporter for Crime Online. Dave, 25 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, sometimes a bottle of water is 26 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: not is innocent his people might think. When you told 27 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: me about this story, my first thought was, how in 28 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,119 Speaker 1: the world can you get anything into a courtroom. In 29 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: this particular case, Edward Leclair at fifty seven years old, 30 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: accused and on trial five counts of sexual abuse, and 31 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,679 Speaker 1: he was out on bail, so he came in from 32 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: the outside. He was not in jail being led into court, 33 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: and so I thought he snuck it in that way. Nope, 34 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: he actually bought a bottle of water. Joe. Inside the courthouse. 35 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: They saw him on video seven am buying a bottle 36 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: of water out of the machine in there. That bottle 37 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: of water was just fine. He was able to go 38 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: through all the things one has to to go to 39 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: court and nobody found anything on him. Apparently, So we 40 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: find Edward Leclair waiting on the judge to read the 41 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: verdict from the jury. Three hours later. We have a verdict. 42 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 1: You have a well planned out thing for Edward Leclair. 43 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: You called it cheating the hangman. I thought how interesting 44 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: of a term that was. He was prepared for a 45 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: guilty verdict. Yeah, he's staring down the barrel of this thing. 46 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: He knows what's coming. The evidence that had been presented 47 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: was so incredibly overwhelming. Lawyers like to use the term 48 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: compelling when they're talking about things a relative to evidentiary value. 49 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: This evidence is so compelling that it causes you to 50 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: give pause, and you can begin to see this thread 51 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: that runs through the entire prosecution. Here's what happened. Edward 52 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: Leclair met a girl online. At first, he didn't know 53 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: how old she was, but after they met up the 54 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: first time, he learned how old she was, and that 55 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: was fourteen. She told him she was fourteen. He continued 56 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: to come after this girl. Well, right there, you can't 57 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: say I didn't know how old she was, because she 58 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: told you. And there is evidence. There's plenty of information online, texting, emails, pictures, 59 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: things like that. What this all exploded to was fifty 60 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: seven year old Edward Leclair. As a girlfriend, Melody mel Shay, 61 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: she found out about this ongoing situation between Edward Leclair 62 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: and a girl, and when Edward Leclair would not stop 63 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: what he was doing, she goes to the girl said, 64 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: he is grooming you. When Edward Leclair didn't let up, 65 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: the girlfriend went to the victim's mother, which is how 66 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: all of this came about. And we ended up with 67 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: fifty seven year old Edward Leclair staring at up to 68 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: a one hundred years in prison. Yeah, and you think 69 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: about what could that possibly hold for him, because you know, 70 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: when he goes into the prison system, we've heard all 71 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: of the stories for all of the years about what 72 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: happens to people that abused children. Whether or not you 73 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: knew she was of age, the court is going to 74 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: hang that on you. That's going to be worn around 75 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: your neck for ever and ever. Amen. And you're talking 76 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: about one hundred years, and there's only so much isolation 77 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: in the prison system that they can do relative to 78 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: individuals that have been charged with crimes against children. And 79 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: this guy has got a background where he doesn't really 80 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: have a criminal past at all. As a matter of fact, 81 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: he had been in the Navy, he had gotten out 82 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: and for years he had worked as an executive or 83 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: corporate recruiter and had a good career leading up to 84 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: this point in time, and then he makes this decision 85 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 1: you were mentioning he had an awareness after that first 86 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: time that he engaged with her where she told him 87 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: or revealed to him that she was fourteen. Now, I'm 88 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: not saying that he would have gotten out of this 89 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: scott free had he ceased and desisted at that moment 90 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: time the criminal activity, but the fact that he continued 91 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: with knowledge that he was committing a criminal act. He 92 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: continued to do this, And it's important for people to 93 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: understand for every time he engages in this behavior, that's 94 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: an individual count and anything that's associated with it. You 95 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,679 Speaker 1: got everything from enticement to the actual act itself. Each 96 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: individual element of these crimes has distinct punishments that come 97 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: along with it. And so the entire time, you're just 98 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: piling more and more onto this thing, and he's aware 99 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: of it. It doesn't surprise me that he wanted to 100 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: get a bottle of water. You're nervous, and one of 101 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: the physiological reactions to being anxious and being on edge 102 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: is that you developed dry mouth. I don't think that 103 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: for the folks in the courtroom, it was necessarily a 104 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: surprise that he had a bottle of water. I think 105 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: even his defense attorney at some point in time had 106 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: commented on the fact that he was sweating and that 107 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 1: he had the bottle of water, and he suddenly began 108 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: to toss the thing back. The only problem is that 109 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: he didn't just simply take a sip. He took the 110 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: bottle and guzzled. It important to note that he did 111 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: that after the judge read guilty on the first charge. 112 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: Once he heard guilty on the first charge, that was 113 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: when the bottle tip came off and he tipped it back. 114 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: That's an awareness that you're staring into a very dark 115 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: chasm at that point in time, because you know this 116 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: is not going to get better. What's fascinating is that 117 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: he had exhibited no kind of disengagement during the trial. 118 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, his attorney, his counsel there 119 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: at the table with him, was saying that he was 120 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: fully engaged the entire time. He was taking notes, he 121 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: was asking questions, he was fully involved. He began to 122 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: understand the depth and breadth of everything that was involved. 123 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: Can you imagine sitting in that chair, You've committed these 124 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: acts and now they're kind of slow rolling this thing 125 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: out and before you every single act that you've been 126 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: engaged in with this minor child, and you're watching this 127 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: develop in front of you, and you can see it. 128 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: It's like a house fire that kind of sweeps through 129 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: your entire life and you see it just being burned 130 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: down to the ground. And many times in my experience 131 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: as a death investigator, this happens with people that do 132 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: finally wind up taking their lives. They have these things 133 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: that occur in their life that just pushed them to 134 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: the edge. And it's not necessarily every single time it 135 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: is one single event. It is the culmination of everything 136 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: over a period of time. But I think that this 137 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: happened in a condensed version for him, and who knows, 138 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: maybe it started from the first time that he engaged 139 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: with this young girl, and maybe he was ridden with 140 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: guilt to begin with, and he just decided not to stop, 141 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: and it started all the way back there, and then finally, 142 00:08:55,679 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: in conclusion, he decides that he's going to take his life. 143 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: Being in court is kind of like it's very formal 144 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: for people that have never actually been in court, And 145 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: still to this day, if I have to go to court, 146 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: as many times as I've done it over the course 147 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: of my career. It's intimidating, but how much more so 148 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: for somebody that has just had a sentence passed on them, 149 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: particularly when you're talking about what Leclair was faced with, 150 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 1: and I cannot begin to imagine where his mind was 151 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: going at this time. Dave, you mentioned that Edward Leclair, 152 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: he's a fifty seven year old man, he had a 153 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: Navy career, he was a corporate recruiter, and then he's 154 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: charged with five counts of sexual assault on a person 155 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: between the ages of fourteen and seventeen. He pleaded night 156 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: guilty on all the charges, and he knows if he's 157 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: guilty on the first count all the others, he's going 158 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: to be guilty on all those. So he is nervous 159 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: and he knows what's coming. And I think in a 160 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: case like this, it is essentially like dominoes, it's going 161 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 1: to fall and you can kind of see the proverbial 162 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: writing on the wall at that point in time, So 163 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: you really wonder was this going to be the trigger 164 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: event that when he heard that term, he knew that 165 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: it was all over and that he was determined to 166 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: take his life. When someone has found guilty like this 167 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: and you know what you're facing. There are certain steps 168 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: that have to take place. First off, we mentioned earlier 169 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: on that he had walked into this courtroom under his 170 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: own free will, so obviously it had been out on bond. 171 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: He showed up and appeared at his own sentencing. He 172 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: didn't try to go on the run or anything. But 173 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: what witnesses later stated though, was that they did see 174 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: him go to a vending machine in the courthouse and 175 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: retrieve a bottle of water or from it. When we 176 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: think about planning, and taking one's life does require some planning. 177 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: Sometimes it can be done spontaneously, but many times people 178 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: will ruminate over and think about it for a protracted 179 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: period of time. I find it very interesting in this 180 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: case that he didn't show up with a bottle of 181 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: water to begin with. He went to the vending machine 182 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: to retrieve a bottle of water. I think some things 183 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: can be taken away from that. Was there a chance 184 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: that he might not go through with it, because you 185 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: would think that if he was certainly prepared to do that. 186 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: It requires two things. First off, you have to have 187 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: the agent that you're going to use the poison. If 188 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: you will, and then you have to have the conveyance 189 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: for it. You have to have a water in order 190 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: to mix this substance up with. He didn't show up 191 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: prepared for that, which is quite striking when you begin 192 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: to think about it. Joe, if he had come into 193 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: court with a water bottle that was cloudy and didn't 194 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: look like water, he would not have been allowed in 195 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: with it. That is true, But why didn't he just 196 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: show up with previously bought bottle of water from home? 197 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: He actually went to the machine in the lobby there 198 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: to purchase this thing, which is odd. Just think about this. 199 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: How many times have we been to a vending machine 200 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 1: you put your money in and it says sold out? 201 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: How many times? That's an ultimate and frustration? Right, wouldn't 202 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: that be something? You know, shows up, he puts his 203 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: money in and things has sold out? Now what are 204 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: you going to do? You're going to get a bottle 205 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: of soda instead of a bottle of water. Can you 206 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: predict what's going to happen if you put this agent 207 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: into a carbonated beverage as opposed to just straight up water. 208 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. It just seems a bit risky on 209 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 1: one hand to me, dave that he would show up 210 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: without that element in place. But I do know this, 211 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: he showed up with a substance that was very lethal. Well, 212 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 1: let me ask you, because Joe I didn't think about that. 213 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: I just looked at it as his pre planning was, 214 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to come into court, I'm going to go 215 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 1: through all the things that check me out, and I'll 216 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: go buy a bottle of water. End. And somehow in 217 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: the time period between the time he buys the bottle 218 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 1: of water and the verdict is read, he is able 219 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: to put something in the water that witness has said 220 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: it was cloudy. But it didn't occur to me if 221 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: it was out, if he could have done it with 222 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: another liquid. We just know that he had water and 223 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: that witnesses said that water was cloudy, which again he 224 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: was drinking it in such an odd fashion. After the 225 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: first guilty that it did draw attention. People did notice, 226 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: including an investigator for the county. It's within our nature's 227 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: humans when somebody is faced with this kind of charge 228 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: in Leclair's case, that's so very ominous and dark when 229 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: you hear this. If you're in the audience, whether you're 230 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: the judge or maybe a detective that has been following 231 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: the case, maybe work the case, his counsel that's sitting 232 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: next to him, or maybe the prosecutor, or maybe just 233 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: a reporter that showed it from the local newspaper and 234 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: you're taking notes. You're going to be looking at this 235 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: guy anyway, because that's what everybody wants to see. They 236 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: want to see how someone is going to react. Camera 237 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: will pan over to that individual in court. It's the 238 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: ultimate and drama and to try to capture their reaction. 239 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: How much more so in a case like this, where 240 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: you've got a guy that's literally looking at spending the 241 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: rest of his life in prison. He's certainly now going 242 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: to be a convicted sex offender at that point in time. 243 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: Then he's going to be put into the population in 244 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: Texas in state penitentiary where he's going to have very 245 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: rough go of it. That in and of itself is 246 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: drama enough. But you're right, Dave, when you say that, 247 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: suddenly it's not just taking SIPs, it's throwing this thing 248 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: back and guzzling it. Some reports say that he actually 249 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: grimaced a bit when this occurred. So you're thinking, why 250 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: is he drinking water like this? Because all of us 251 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: can kind of identify with having dry mouth. You're kind 252 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: of knocked that back as best you can. But no, 253 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: that's not what happened. I guess the only way to 254 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: really phrase is he was drinking with a purpose. I'm 255 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: going to ask you, Joe, what could he possibly mixed 256 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: with water that could cause his demise? What could he 257 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: do where nobody can see, because he's got to do 258 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: this hidden. He's got his bottle of water there, he 259 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: somehow is able to open it and put something in 260 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: that water. The prosecutor believed early on that Leclaire had 261 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: perhaps ingested cyanide, and I think that most people think 262 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: of it's kind of a default position when you suspect 263 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: that someone has taken their own life, they're ingesting something. 264 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: Side is kind of this classic thing that you see 265 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: in the movies. We've heard of l pills that contain cyanide, 266 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: where people can take their own lives, and it's kind 267 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: of what we think about. Interestingly enough, it was not cyanide. 268 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: It's actually a chemical that is used sometimes to decrease 269 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: the lethality of cyanide ingestion. It's kind of fascinating because 270 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: he chose to use a substance called sodium nitrite. It's 271 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: a salt and it's commonly associated with preservation of food. 272 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: It's something that you find in any kind of food preservative. Nowadays, 273 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: we've heard of how years ago they used to salt 274 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: meat to store it for a protracted period of time. 275 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: People have a smokehouse, they would salt their meat. We're 276 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: talking about pure salt in order to do that. This 277 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: is a compound sodium nitrite, and it's utilized in order 278 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: to not just preserve food, but it's also facilitates maintaining 279 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: kind of a healthy looking color to food. And the 280 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: old day's salt would actually dry out the meat to 281 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: the point where it would look brown and it would 282 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: make it very unappetizing in appearance. But with this substance, 283 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: it still maintains kind of a beefy red appearance. It 284 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: still looks palatable, even though the salted meat in the 285 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: past was palatable and preserved. But there's something to be 286 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: said for something that still looks viable when we're looking 287 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: to ingest something, and it's still will achieve the same goal. 288 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: But this substance that's used for a wide variety of things, 289 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: as I said, it can be used as a treatment 290 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: to knock down cyanide ingestion. It's also used in treating metals. 291 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: It's got a very broad spectrum utility to it. But 292 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: here's the thing. When taken in very big doses, it's 293 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: highly highly lethal, and of course, in the case it 294 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: will Claire, it ended his life. Sodium nitrite a stroke 295 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: of genius, as it were. It's something that is easily accessible. 296 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: It's a substance that just about anybody can get their 297 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: hands on. If you try to find an agent like cyanide, 298 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: you're going to draw attention to yourself. But with this 299 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: particular substance, it is something that the general public can 300 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: actually purchase and readily use, and in this case, that's 301 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: what Looklear decided to end his life with. Dave. Now, 302 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: you're kind of confusing me just a little bit because 303 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: you said that sodium nitrite can be used to make 304 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: meat look more appealing. Yet in the same token, the 305 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: very thing that can make the food look better can 306 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: kill me as well and is readily available. And you 307 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: point it out, cyanide is going to draw attention, but 308 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: sodium nitrite is something that is common and commonly used 309 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: in many different things. How much is enough if I'm 310 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: using it to make my meat look good? Is there? 311 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: Like you can go three marshmallows, but the fourth one's 312 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: going to kill you. I don't know if I'd reduce 313 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: it down to marshmallows, Dave, but you have to have 314 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: a significant amount of it, and you would have to 315 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: have the ability to transport it as well. In appearance, 316 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: it's a white crystalline substance. It's assault, so it's going 317 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: to have that kind of appearance to it. It's completely odorless, 318 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: so it's not necessarily going to draw attension to you. 319 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: It was a real risk, I think for him to 320 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: bring it into the courthouse though, because you're surrounded with 321 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: law enforcement types. You've got this in some kind of conveyance, 322 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: whether it be and they've never been very specific about this, 323 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: but you've either got it in a bag or you've 324 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: got it in some kind of vial And just imagine 325 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: you're around law enforcement types, they know that you're going 326 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: into criminal court and suddenly they search you. Well, the 327 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: default position for the police or law enforcement is if 328 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: they search you and they find a baggy with a 329 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: white crystalline, nonspecific substance in it, they're automatically going to 330 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: begin to think, well, what is this. Is it some 331 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: type of illicit drug? Could it be coke? Could it 332 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: be meth? Could it be any of these things? Running 333 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 1: the risk with the bottle of water not showing up 334 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: with it in hand, and then you're going to walk 335 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: into the courtroom with a white crystalline substance. You're really 336 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: kind of sticking your neck out here with this plan. 337 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: But he decided to roll the dice, and in this case, 338 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: it certainly worked. And with this particular substance, it inhibits 339 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: the uptake of oxygen. Our red blood cells transport oxygen 340 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: to our cells throughout our body. With the introduction of 341 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: the substance into the system, it inhibits that ability, so 342 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: the oxygen can't bond with the hemoglobin and transport it around, 343 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: and it causes at a cellular level for the cells 344 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: to begin to struggle. You have to have oxygenated blood 345 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: in order to function, and essentially the cells, for lack 346 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: of a better term, begin comes strangulated. At that point 347 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: in time, this shocked everyone. Nobody saw this coming, knowing 348 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: what he was facing, facing a hundred years in prison, 349 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: Nobody thought this was going to happen. They didn't. It's 350 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: not like he had gone through some type of assessment 351 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: just prior to walking into court. He's here to hear 352 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: the final outcome. Trial has been going on. He's living 353 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: on the outside and he's faced with the reality he 354 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: knows what the evidence is. He's faced with the reality 355 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: there's a chance he is not walking back out of 356 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: that courtroom without bracelets on his wrist and not being 357 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: shackled at this point in time, and he's got a 358 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: very narrow window to work with. So in answer to 359 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: your question, I'm thinking probably a five gram to ten 360 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: gram dosage would probably be enough to push him over 361 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: the edge, and it would certainly give that water that 362 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,239 Speaker 1: cloudy appearance. The water didn't appear dirty. It kind of 363 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: turns it into not really bige, but kind of a white. 364 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: It is water soluble, but it takes a few seconds 365 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: for it to begin to break down where you would 366 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: not be able to appreciate it. So he dumped it 367 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: in pretty quick and use the water to ingest it. 368 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: It begins to work very very quickly. When they begin 369 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: to take him away, already at a cellular level, he's 370 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: beginning to struggle. He becomes diphyretic, a skin is getting cold, clammy, 371 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: starting to sweat, unsteady gait. They're leading him back to 372 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: a holding cell where they take all of these people 373 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: that have been found guilty, and once they PLoP him 374 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: down in that holding cell, he begins to vomit. He 375 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: begins to vomit. It's the body's reaction, at least in 376 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: the initial phase to the substance being within his digestive track. 377 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: At that point, his body is having the scretching event. 378 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: That's kind of cleared the system, but it's too late 379 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 1: at that point. As a matter of fact, that autopsy. 380 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: One of the things that you see with a gastric mucosa, 381 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: which is kind of the lining of the esophagus in 382 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 1: the stomach. When that area is open and you've been 383 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: exposed to the substance, it forms this film. It's kind 384 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: of got a beige appearance to it. It's a reactive 385 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: event that your body reacting to this stuff. Just from 386 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: the initial onset. You've got an indication in the gastric 387 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: mucosa the stuff is being absorbed. That's one of the 388 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: quickest ways to get it into the system. So it's 389 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: already being absorbed. As soon as it begins to hit 390 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: his mouth, that digestive process begins at that point and 391 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: it's going out systemically. At this point, it's getting into 392 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: his bloodstream, it's inhibiting the oxygen uptake. The body is wretching, 393 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: it's trying to get rid of it. And another thing 394 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: that you see with this kind of event is that 395 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: individuals become hypoxic. That's an outward demonstration of a lack 396 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: of oxygen. Sometimes they'll become cyanotic, and cyanotic or psygnosis 397 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 1: is something that you see many times with congestive heart 398 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: failure or respiratory failure. You see it with drug acts. 399 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: Many times they'll have this eggplant colored hue that comes 400 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: over them where they're purple almost. But in his case, 401 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: he was in the early stages when they initially saw. 402 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: The reports were that he had become very pale ashen 403 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: and eventually he begins to convulse, which is again associated 404 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: with ingestion of this stuff. You think about the time involved. 405 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: He starts drinking. After the first guilty verdict is read, 406 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 1: they read all five. He's chugging jing ding ding. He's 407 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: taken this down. Five verdicts guilty guilty, Yielty guilty, yilding, 408 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: and then the judge then sends the jury out of 409 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: the room. Are convicted pedophile. They're both sent out of 410 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: the room. He has moved to a holding soul adjacent 411 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: to the courtroom. The jury moved to their room. He 412 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: immediately goes in there and starts throwing up, which isn't 413 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: going to shock anyone right away. The man was just 414 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 1: found guilty. He's now a convicted pedophile. He knows he's 415 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: staring a hundred years in prison. That's what the judge 416 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: is going to now discuss with the attorneys about sentencing. 417 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: So while he's in there, he starts throwing up, and 418 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: somebody says, hey, I believe it was the investigator for 419 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: Didon County, said go check on him. Something's not right, 420 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: and that's when a bailiff went and checked on him 421 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: and found him unconscious. It was that quick. It is 422 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: that quick that goes to the level of lethality, and 423 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: this is something that he had planned out. But here's 424 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: the key, Dave, this quite chilling. When I was taking 425 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 1: a look at this case, this is not the first 426 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: of these cases involving someone utilizing this substance. I guess 427 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: it was. Back in twenty one. You had this young actor, 428 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: Matthew Miidler that had utilized this substance to kill himself with. 429 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: There's also another actress that had utilized this substance. You've 430 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: got a couple of kids out there that have used it. 431 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: The fascinating thing is that Amazon company. Amazon was actually 432 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: sued over the substance because people were peddling what turned 433 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: out to be quote unquote suicide kits. There's no reason 434 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: for anyone to be in possession of this substance unless 435 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: you're preserving or curing meat at home perhaps, and it's 436 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 1: not something that's naturally occurring in our system. At autopsy, 437 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: after you've done the gross examination and we've talked about 438 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: this on bodybacks before, where you're actually staring at the 439 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: organs after you have the body open, then you do 440 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: the dissection. You look at the changes microscopically through histological examinations, 441 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: and there will be a few changes that you can notice, 442 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: but nothing really specific. So the answers are traditionally going 443 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: to rest in toxicology, and that's one of the reasons 444 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: it took some time for them to work their way 445 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: through it. They know at the Medical Examiner's office that 446 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: they're dealing with some kind of toxin that has brought 447 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: his death about. It's not like he was just found 448 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 1: lying out on the street deceased. They know that this 449 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: is something that he has ingested. The trick is how 450 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: do you begin to whittle this down? And when you're 451 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: conducting an investigation like this, it's not just what you 452 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: find at autopsy. You have to go back to this 453 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: individual's home where they were dwelling. You have to look 454 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: for receipts. You have to look for maybe a larger 455 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: amount of this substance. Did they have access to it? 456 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: Did they work in an industry perhaps that utilize the substance. 457 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: You would look through the computer files. You'd want to see. 458 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: Had he searched out means to take my own life 459 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: by some type of substance that I can ingest. He's 460 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: not going to walk into the courtroom and be able 461 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: to get through a metal detector with a gun. In 462 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: his mind, apparently this was the next best thing. And 463 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: there have been other people that have taken poisons in court. 464 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: There have actually been people that have done great harm 465 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: to themselves in court, But in this particular instance, he 466 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: had to have something that was portable that he could 467 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: simply unscrew the top of a bottle of water and 468 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: pour this in very carefully without drawing any kind of notice, 469 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: and shake this thing up and then ingested. This brings 470 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: us to another point. He's thought about this. I wonder 471 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: back at his home if when the investigators went there 472 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: they found any evidence that he had been practicing, because 473 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: that's something that occurs many times. Were the people that 474 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 1: decide to take their lives, they will go through a 475 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: series of exercises to see if things function. We see 476 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: this with suicide by gunfire. People will do what's called 477 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: test firing a weapon. We hear about test firing as 478 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: it applies to ballistic examination or gunfire examination. Individuals that 479 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: are bent on taking their life with a firearm, they 480 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: will actually test fire weapons prior to using them on themselves. 481 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: If you suspect somebody has poisoned themselves, is there something 482 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: that can be done that could reverse the effects of 483 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: this and maybe other poisons. For years and years, there's 484 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: been an induction of vomiting that has occurred. When you 485 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: hear about people having their stomachs pumped, But most of 486 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: the time that's going to be with prescription medications. Many 487 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: of those things will have like time releases with a 488 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: substance like this. Time is a big element here. You 489 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: said something very very interesting a moment ago, Dave, that 490 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: had not struck me until this moment, and that was 491 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: when they take him back to that holding cell and 492 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: he's in there and he begins vomiting. That would not 493 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: be an unexpected reaction to this kind of sentence, would it. 494 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: So you have a time delay there, I think, and 495 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: some people have drawn this into question in this particular case, 496 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: did they delay getting the paramedics there. Well, when you 497 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: see somebody begin throwing up, you don't automatically think poisoning. Okay, 498 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: it's not like the guy's got a sign around his 499 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: neck that says I've just ingested this. You've got a 500 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: guy that is looking at a hundred years as a 501 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: sex offender in a state penitentiary. At this point in time, 502 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: I could see somebody throwing up. I could see somebody 503 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: having severe gastrointestinal distress at this moment in time. So 504 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: the bailiff, who you can only imagine these holding sales, 505 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: have seen just about everything in there, and to see 506 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: somebody throwing up is not beyond the pale. It's something 507 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: that may have been expected. Maybe it's something they had 508 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: seen before, so they're going to delay. But it's when 509 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: he goes into an unconscious state, when he starts to 510 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: convulse this sort of thing, they know they've got a problem. 511 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: So time is of the essence. Is there an agent 512 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: that they could have induced vomiting with, perhaps, but the 513 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: key is there was nobody around to do that, and 514 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: this agent works so very quickly Dave that he was 515 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: beyond salvation at that point in time. The number to 516 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: call if you or somebody you know is suffering through 517 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: life right now and is really considering taking their own 518 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: life or causing harm, the number to call is eight 519 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: hundred two seven three ta LK. That's eight two five 520 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: eight hundred two seven three eight two five five for 521 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 522 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: this is Body Backs