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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

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Speaker 3: hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a

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Speaker 3: neuroscientists at Stanford and I've spent my career exploring the

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Speaker 3: three pound universe in our heads.

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Speaker 1: Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

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Speaker 3: Between your brain and your life, because the more we

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Speaker 3: can steer our lives. Listen to Inner Cosmos with Savid

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Speaker 3: Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you

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Speaker 3: get your podcasts.

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Speaker 4: One.

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Speaker 5: It's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've been following

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Speaker 5: That's k A t I E c o U r

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Speaker 5: Ic dot com slash good Taste. I promise your taste

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Speaker 2: Guess what will?

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Speaker 6: What's that mango?

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Speaker 7: I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast,

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Speaker 7: Part Time Genius, but even though we've done over two

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Speaker 7: hundred and fifty episodes, we don't really talk about murders

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Speaker 7: or cults.

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Speaker 6: I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese,

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Speaker 6: so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We

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Speaker 6: also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food?

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Speaker 1: And how do.

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Speaker 6: Dollar stores make money? And then of course can you

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Speaker 6: game a dog show? So what you're saying is everyone

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Speaker 6: to be listening. Listen to Part Time Genius on the

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Speaker 6: iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Hey Daniel, remember a few weeks ago when you insulted

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Speaker 2: America's favorite chocolate bar.

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Speaker 1: He hies, how could I forget? I got some strong

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Speaker 1: emails about that comment.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, did you get us barred from the airwaves?

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Speaker 1: No? But I think I might have to raise the

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Speaker 1: bar in terms of my comments.

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Speaker 2: You mean we're not already at the bottom.

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Speaker 1: We're scrapping the bottom of the bar roll.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like you need to spend less time

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Speaker 2: in bars drinking away your chocolate sorrows.

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Speaker 1: I'll have a chocolate TEENI please.

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Speaker 2: Sure give it a shot. Hi am Hori Microtinus and

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Speaker 2: the author of Oliver's Great Big Universe.

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Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, and I do have strong opinions about chocolate.

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Speaker 2: Do you have opinions about strong chocolate? Or do you

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Speaker 2: have strong opinions about chocolate?

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Speaker 1: Yes? And yes.

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Speaker 2: It's because you're really passionate about chocolate. It gives you

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Speaker 2: a lot of comfort.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, if you're gonna eat chocolate, then you

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Speaker 1: should eat chocolate that you like. But you know, people

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Speaker 1: prefer lots of different kinds of chocolate. I don't mean

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Speaker 1: to judge people who like Hershey's, you know, all the

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Speaker 1: power to them if that's what they want. It's everywhere.

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Speaker 2: I feel like you're maybe being a bit of a

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Speaker 2: chocolate snob.

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Speaker 1: I mean, are you being a snob to know what

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Speaker 1: you like and know what you don't like. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to insult anybody else's preferences to anybody who is

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Speaker 1: offended by me calling a Hershey's chocolate garbage, I do apologize.

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Speaker 2: That sounds like a non apology, Daniel.

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Speaker 1: It did sound like an apology. I agree, But it

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Speaker 1: sounded like I was trying, didn't it.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that counts these days, all right, I

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Speaker 2: think you could raise your bar in terms of apologies

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Speaker 2: to the masses.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'll say this, I enjoy chocolate. I hope everybody

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Speaker 1: else out there enjoys chocolate, whatever flavor or variety they prefer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go. But anyways, welcome to our podcast

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Speaker 2: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we whip up a delicious concoction of everything

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Speaker 1: that's out there in the universe, all the dark energy,

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Speaker 1: all the dark matter, all the dark ideas that describe

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Speaker 1: how the universe actually works, what it's made out of,

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Speaker 1: and how it came to be. We melt it all down,

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Speaker 1: form it into squares, and ship it to you over

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Speaker 1: the airwaves.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We try to lower the bar of science

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Speaker 2: and make it accessible to everyone out there. We try

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Speaker 2: to make it silky and smooth and delicious and easy

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Speaker 2: to go down.

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Speaker 1: Because wondering about how the universe works is something everybody does,

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Speaker 1: and everybody should have access to what we know and

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Speaker 1: what we don't know about the universe. Thinking like a

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Speaker 1: physicist is not something only professional physicists can do. It's

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Speaker 1: something everybody can do and should do about how the

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Speaker 1: world works. And we're here to walk you through that.

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Speaker 2: It's right because we all live in the universe. We're

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Speaker 2: all members of the universe, and we can all wonder

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Speaker 2: about how it all works, how it's all put together,

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Speaker 2: and why things are the way they are.

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Speaker 1: Do you have like a membership card for the universe?

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Speaker 1: I don't have one.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh uh, awkward? Awkward. Maybe you just got lost

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Speaker 2: in the mail, Daniel. I'm sure that's what happened. Sure

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Speaker 2: you are invited.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's part of the Hershey's cabal. That's secretly organizing

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Speaker 1: the whole universe.

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Speaker 2: Oh you've been you've been blacklisted or dark chocolate listed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, milk chocolated.

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Speaker 2: That's what you get for insulting accessible chocolate to the masses. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but you can still come to the universe.

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Speaker 1: I guess all right, thank you.

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Speaker 2: You can be somebody's plus one. You just don't invite physicists,

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Speaker 2: maybe because there they'll prefer to be on the outside

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Speaker 2: of the universe looking in.

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Speaker 1: No. I love being the part of the universe that's

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Speaker 1: looking at itself, right. That's what makes the questions so important.

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Speaker 1: That we're not outside the universe studying it like some

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Speaker 1: weird object. It's part of our context, our lives, is

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Speaker 1: our existence that we're trying to understand. Physics is sometimes

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Speaker 1: sold as like bigger than humanity, But to me, it's

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Speaker 1: the fundamental question of humanity, answering the deepest questions about

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Speaker 1: our own existence.

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Speaker 8: Is it sold as bigger as humanities were said listed

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Speaker 8: That's how it was sold to me. I guess, so

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Speaker 8: maybe I shouldn't generalize from an equals one. But one

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Speaker 8: reason I got into physics originally was that it seemed

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Speaker 8: like the questions were universal. They weren't limited to things

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Speaker 8: happening on Earth. You know, you study biology, and you

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Speaker 8: know it's fascinating and important, but it might be very

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Speaker 8: different on other planets.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that's why you're not invited, Daniel. You think you're

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Speaker 2: bigger than the rest of us.

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Speaker 1: I think some of the pelophysics is that it does

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Speaker 1: seem to be universal, though of course we don't know,

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Speaker 1: and that's a question we can only answer in the

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Speaker 1: future when we meet aliens.

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Speaker 2: I guess it does sort of tap into that sense

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Speaker 2: of the cosmos, the grand pictures that we all kind

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Speaker 2: of have inside of us. And it is pretty amazing

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Speaker 2: what we've been able to understand and study and come

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Speaker 2: to turns with in terms of where we are in

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Speaker 2: the universe, within our Solar System, within our galaxy, within

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Speaker 2: our supercluster of galaxies, within the absorbable universe. It's pretty

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Speaker 2: amazing that we can see so much structure out there

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Speaker 2: just by looking out to the night sky.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing what we know about the universe, never

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Speaker 1: having left our tiny little neighborhood. Everything we know about

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Speaker 1: the structure of galaxies and superclusters and all that stuff

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Speaker 1: is based just on the few photons that happen to

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Speaker 1: hit Earth from those distant locations. It would be incredible

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Speaker 1: to get in a warpship and like actually visit some

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Speaker 1: of these places and learn more about what's actually going

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Speaker 1: on there right now. But we can do a pretty

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Speaker 1: impressive job even from here. But of course, there are

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Speaker 1: still lots of unanswered questions about how solar systems form,

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Speaker 1: what planets there are in our Solar system, what planets

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Speaker 1: there have been in our Solar system, and larger questions

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Speaker 1: about galaxies, why they exist, how they form, and why

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Speaker 1: they take their weird shapes.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because we're orbiting around our Sun, and the

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Speaker 2: Sun is orbiting in a galaxy, see, which is a

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Speaker 2: huge cluster of stars. There are one hundred billion stars

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Speaker 2: in the Milky Way galaxy. But how these galaxies get

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Speaker 2: form is kind of a still up in the air, right.

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Speaker 1: It is, And it's an important question because galaxies are

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Speaker 1: kind of the basic building block of the universe. They're

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Speaker 1: like the atoms of the universe from which you can

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Speaker 1: put together structures and superstructures and all sorts of other stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's incredible that like galaxies actually exist and they tend

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Speaker 1: to be a certain size, so it's an important thing

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Speaker 1: to understand, like why are universe features galaxies? How they

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Speaker 1: come to be, how long they will continue to be

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Speaker 1: the basic building block of the universe?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and why do they have some strange features? And

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Speaker 2: so today on the podcast we'll be asking the question

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Speaker 2: why do some galaxies have bars?

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Speaker 9: Now?

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Speaker 2: Are these like drinking bars? Like our galaxy has a bar,

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Speaker 2: can go and get a drink.

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Speaker 1: There's definitely bars in our galaxy, right, I've been to

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Speaker 1: some of them. So that's a question we can definitively

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Speaker 1: answer today on the podcat.

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Speaker 2: They seem to be cluster around Earth at least all

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Speaker 2: the bars we know are on Earth. Is that kind

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Speaker 2: of a physics question or is a biology question?

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Speaker 1: Well? I think there's some history of drinking alcohol in space, right.

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Speaker 1: I think Zach and Kelly's new book has some stories

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Speaker 1: about astronauts who have smuggled things up to the ISS,

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Speaker 1: So perhaps there is an unofficial bar off Earth as well.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if anyone has tried a like brew beer

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Speaker 2: on the space station.

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Speaker 8: Space moonshine, either on purpose or by accident.

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Speaker 1: The moon does shine more brightly in space, so maybe

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Speaker 1: it's easier to make moonshine.

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Speaker 2: Hmm, there you go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so of course we don't know if aliens

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Speaker 1: enjoy relaxing in bars or whether they like Hershey's chocolate

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Speaker 1: in their chocolate tenies. But today we're not talking about

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Speaker 1: places to drink. We're talking about the structures at the

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Speaker 1: centers of galaxies.

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Speaker 2: I see. So when you say a galaxy bar, it's

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Speaker 2: not like a like a buffet bar or a beer bar.

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Speaker 2: It's more like a destruct is a structure in a

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Speaker 2: galaxy that looks like a bar or but structures multiple ones.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a kind of galaxy out there called a

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Speaker 1: barred galaxy, but not every galaxy has this kind of

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Speaker 1: bar at the center, and so it's an open question

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Speaker 1: about why some galaxies have bars.

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Speaker 2: Well, as usually, we were wondering how many people out

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Speaker 2: there had thought about galaxy bars and why some galaxies

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Speaker 2: have them, why some don't? Are they over twenty one?

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Speaker 2: Can you get your favorite drinks in them? And so

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Speaker 2: Daniel went out there into the internet to find out

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Speaker 2: what people think about this question.

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Speaker 1: And whether you like salad bars or chocolate bars or

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Speaker 1: any other kind of bar, You are welcome to participate

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Speaker 1: in this segment of the podcast. Just write to meet

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Speaker 1: you questions at Danielanjorge dot com and I'll set you up.

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Speaker 2: So think about it for a second. Why do you

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Speaker 2: think some galaxies have bars? Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 10: So I didn't know galaxies had bars in the center.

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Speaker 10: So I'm going to say maybe it has it because

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Speaker 10: gravity is aliding them in a special way, but can't

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Speaker 10: be made into sphere because of the black house gravity.

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Speaker 11: I think planets don't share orbits because the center of

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Speaker 11: gravity would have to be absolutely stationary or it would

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Speaker 11: oscillate and shake itself out of sync. I think that

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Speaker 11: the bars in the center of galaxies are there to.

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Speaker 1: Give people somewhere to go.

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Speaker 11: But like if women's clothes shops have bars, they have

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Speaker 11: somewhere for men to go instead of trying to look interested.

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Speaker 12: I expect that galaxies have bars at their centers because

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Speaker 12: you're going to need a place to kill some time,

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Speaker 12: and how it's going to have a beer if your

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Speaker 12: interstellar flight is delayed.

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Speaker 10: I have no idea what does a bar in the

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Speaker 10: center of ability mean?

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Speaker 2: All right, some fun ideas here, some of them a

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Speaker 2: little bit inappropriate.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps I think this might be the highest fraction of

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Speaker 1: joke answers we've ever gotten, which means people really just

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Speaker 1: don't know anything about bars and galaxies.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they're just a barring and not knowing anything about them.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe they'd already spent too much time at a

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Speaker 1: bar when they got these questions and they were in

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Speaker 1: a silly mood.

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Speaker 2: Oh there you go. Yeah, maybe you shouldn't send these

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Speaker 2: questions out during a happy.

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Speaker 1: Hours Monday morning nine am. Is that what a happy hour.

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Speaker 2: Is depends on how much you like your job, I guess.

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Speaker 1: And where you are in the world. Right, we have

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Speaker 1: listeners all over the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are a global podcast. All right, Well, Daniel,

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Speaker 2: maybe step us through this. What exactly do you mean

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Speaker 2: by a galaxy bar?

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Speaker 1: So, galaxy bars are features of one particular kind of galaxy,

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Speaker 1: and galaxies, it turns out, can have all sorts of

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Speaker 1: different shapes in them. Galaxies, of course, are clusters of

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Speaker 1: stars and they can be very very small, from dwarf

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Speaker 1: galaxies that have thousands of stars to super mega galaxies

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Speaker 1: that have billions and billions of stars. But we tend

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Speaker 1: to notice some features in them. And you know, the

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Speaker 1: beginning of any science is basically just botany. It's just like,

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Speaker 1: look at it, categorize it, sort it, see what patterns emerge.

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Speaker 1: And very early on when people were studying galaxies, they

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Speaker 1: noticed that they could have different structures, even things we

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Speaker 1: could see here from Earth with limited telescopes.

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Speaker 2: Right, And we've talked a little bit about before the

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Speaker 2: different shapes that galaxies can have, right, And they can

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Speaker 2: be sort of like a blob like a football, or

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Speaker 2: maybe like a spiral, or maybe just like a pancake.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly. And there are regular galaxies that are

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Speaker 1: probably in the process of merging between two galaxies. This

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Speaker 1: galaxy out there that looks like a question mark, for example.

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Speaker 1: But the most common galaxy out there is a spiral galaxy.

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Speaker 2: How common is it and is it like fifty.

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Speaker 1: It's somewhere around two thirds of all the galaxies that

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Speaker 1: we have studied our spiral galaxies. And there's a reason

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Speaker 1: for that. And we went into all of that in

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Speaker 1: our recent podcast about the various shapes that galaxies can have.

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Speaker 1: But basically, galaxies form from huge blows of gas which

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Speaker 1: spin and collapse and then form a disc. And that

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Speaker 1: dense disk of gas tends to form those stars and

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Speaker 1: the spinning of the galaxy turns that disc into a spiral.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of like the default shape of a galaxy, right,

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Speaker 2: But then you can get other shapes, as we talked about,

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Speaker 2: when they merge with each other, other galaxies or they

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Speaker 2: crash into other galaxies.

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Speaker 1: Right exactly. So a spiral galaxy is like the basic

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Speaker 1: building block of the universe in that sense, it's the

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Speaker 1: most important one to understand because the other ones, ellipticals

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Speaker 1: and irregulars are all made out of spiral galaxies. And

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Speaker 1: also our galaxy is a spiral galaxy. So if we're

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Speaker 1: going to understand like the context of our lives, let's

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Speaker 1: begin at.

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Speaker 2: Home, right, And I guess maybe just to paint the

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Speaker 2: picture for folks, by a spiral, it sort of looks

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Speaker 2: like a like a toilet flushing, right, Like, It's not

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Speaker 2: like one like you're tracing out a spiral with a

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Speaker 2: pen and a paper. It's more like a swirl that's

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Speaker 2: kind of converging in the middle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And the spiral galaxy usually has several arms. It

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Speaker 1: can have two, sometimes they have three. There are galaxies

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Speaker 1: out there with four arms. Each one is like a

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Speaker 1: spiral that usually goes like one time around the galaxy

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Speaker 1: starts from the center and then comes out, so it's

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Speaker 1: sort of more like a pinwheel, right.

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Speaker 2: So that gives you the image of the spiral galaxy.

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Speaker 2: And so that's the basic shape of most galaxies out there.

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Speaker 2: But you say, you're saying some of them have a

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Speaker 2: bar through them or on them.

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Speaker 1: At the center. Some galaxies don't have bars. The spiral

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Speaker 1: arms just start at the very center. But a good

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Speaker 1: fraction of galaxy is the center of them isn't part

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Speaker 1: of the spiral arm. It's this separate thing. It's like

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Speaker 1: a bar. Like the Milky Way galaxy has this big

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Speaker 1: blob of stars and gas and dust at the center

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Speaker 1: of it, which forms this big bar, and the spiral

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Speaker 1: arm that comes out of each end of the bar.

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Speaker 1: So the spirals don't go to the very center of

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Speaker 1: the galaxy. They start at the edges of this bar.

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Speaker 2: WHOA, wait, wait, wait, So you're saying our Milky Way

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Speaker 2: galaxy is a bar.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we live in a bar galaxy.

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Speaker 2: Whoa is it a milk chocolate bar? Since we're the

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Speaker 2: Milky Way.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm afraid to answer because I don't want to

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Speaker 1: anger the Hershey universe cabal that's in charge of everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what if they are? What if the milky Away

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Speaker 2: is her cheese product.

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Speaker 1: This is why it's so important for science to be

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Speaker 1: free of this kind of oppression. People should feel free

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Speaker 1: to speak their minds on chocolate, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, people shouldn't disparage other people if they ever chocolate.

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Speaker 2: I think that is maybe the most important.

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Speaker 1: Part of her Yes, yes, point, taking point.

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Speaker 2: But our milky Way is a bar? Are you saying so?

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Speaker 2: Like the ore spirals, the arms of our galaxy don't

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Speaker 2: spiral into a single or single blob in the middle.

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Speaker 2: It's they spiral into a bar.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Our galaxy is two major arms, and then

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Speaker 1: there's some spurs that come off of them, and each

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Speaker 1: arm comes from a different side of the bar. So

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Speaker 1: the two major spirals that make the Milky Way galaxy,

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Speaker 1: they don't actually meet at the center. They come to

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Speaker 1: different sides of this bar that's at the core of

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Speaker 1: the galaxy.

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Speaker 2: Interesting. The pigture I'm getting is sort of like I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you've seen those like Hawaiian fire dancers.

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Speaker 2: They have where they have a stick and at each

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Speaker 2: end of the stick it's on fire, and so then

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Speaker 2: they spin it. That's kind of sort of what's the

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Speaker 2: picture that we get of the Milky Way galaxy, Isn't

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Speaker 2: it like there's a bar and from the each end

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Speaker 2: of the bar you get these swirls that spiral out.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm not fancy enough to take vacations to Hawaii.

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Speaker 1: I tend to spend my money on chocolate instead. But

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Speaker 1: it sounds accurate.

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Speaker 2: You know that you can get chocolate in Hawaii. In fact,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of known for They're kind of known for

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Speaker 2: having good chocolate.

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Speaker 1: Macademian that chocolate here, I come, there you go. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that sounds accurate. Wow. Or if you imagine like a

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Speaker 1: baton twirler at a football game and ribbons at the

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Speaker 1: end of the baton, if or she spins the baton,

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Speaker 1: then the ribbons spiral around it. But the ribbons, of

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Speaker 1: course don't meet at the very center. They come from

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Speaker 1: the edges of the batanh.

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Speaker 2: Now, this is an interesting idea just because to me

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Speaker 2: and I wonder if to a lot of our listeners

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Speaker 2: this is kind of news. Right, Like most of the

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Speaker 2: time that you see a picture or a drawing of

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Speaker 2: the Milk Away Galaxy, they don't it doesn't have the

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Speaker 2: bar in the middle, right, like the famous isn't the

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Speaker 2: famous image of like you are here where it points

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Speaker 2: to a point in the Milky Way of a drawing

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Speaker 2: of the Milky Way that one doesn't have a bar.

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Speaker 2: I don't think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. I'm not sure if that

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Speaker 1: image is scientifically vetted. It also really doesn't have big

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Speaker 1: distinct arms the way you might expect, But a more

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Speaker 1: scientifically accurate picture of the Milky Way shows the specific

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Speaker 1: arms and the bar. The bar is not like a

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Speaker 1: very rigid rod. It's a bit of a blob also.

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Speaker 2: To me now of stars, like a just an elongated

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Speaker 2: cluster of stars.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's stars and it's gas and it's dust like

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Speaker 1: the rest of the galaxy. But you know, this is

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Speaker 1: us imposing order on a huge swirling mass of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So part of this, of course, is just the impression

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Speaker 1: we make how our brains filter the full details of

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Speaker 1: the buzzing chaos of reality.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, so then the Milkyway has a bar.

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Speaker 2: Lots of galaxies maybe have bars in the middle of them,

404
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Speaker 2: and so the question is why do they have bars?

405
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Speaker 2: What's going on there in the middle of the galaxy?

406
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Speaker 2: And can you play galactic limbo with that bar and

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Speaker 2: so let's get to these deep and profound questions. But

408
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,399
Speaker 2: first let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

460
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Speaker 3: hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a

461
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Speaker 3: neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the

462
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Speaker 3: three pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a

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Speaker 3: whole new series of episodes this season to understand why

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465
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467
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469
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470
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Speaker 3: running under the hood, better we can steer our lives.

471
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 3: Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain

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Speaker 3: and your life by digging into unexpected questions. Listen to

473
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,160
Speaker 3: Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.

475
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 2: All right, we're talking about the Milky Way galaxy and

476
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 2: the fact that it has a bar of stars in

477
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 2: the middle. The swirls of the galaxy don't converge to

478
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 2: a round blob in the middle. They converse to kind

479
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,360
Speaker 2: of like a rod of stars.

480
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,959
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it might be more accurate to call it

481
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: like a football because it's a little wider in the

482
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: center than it is at the edges. But yeah, there's

483
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: sort of a long but.

484
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 2: It's not a bar. Why don't we just call them

485
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 2: football galaxy?

486
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: Football galaxy? That sounds great. I am done defending the

487
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 1: naming schemes of astronomy.

488
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 2: Because it's indefensible, because you just can't do it.

489
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: Sorry, astronomers, you have no champion in me anymore.

490
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 2: Oh, boy, you're throwing the astronomers under the bus.

491
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: No, I'm just throwing.

492
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 2: Naming peculiarities.

493
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 1: Oh, it certainly does. And nobody's ever asked me my

494
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: opinion when they make up these names.

495
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 2: Okay, So the Milky Way has a bar or football

496
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: kind of in the middle, which is weird, right, because

497
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 2: you would expect a galaxy to be sort of you know,

498
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 2: round and symmetric, right, you.

499
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: Would kind of expect it. And that's exactly why we

500
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 1: are really interested in these questions like what structure's form

501
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: in the universe. The answer to that qutrum reveals the

502
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 1: forces at play, Like wire galaxies created in the first place,

503
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 1: while there's gravity, why don't they just collapse into a

504
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: central ball, while there's angular momentum that turns them into disks?

505
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: Why do the arms form at all?

506
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: Well, maybe a question we can ask here is like

507
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 2: what percentage of galaxies are bard galaxies? Like is the

508
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: Milky Way super weird that it has a bar? Or

509
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 2: is it like most spiral galaxies have bars or some

510
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: of them or fifty to fifty.

511
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: That's a really interesting question and the answer depends on

512
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 1: the mass of the galaxy in a super weird way

513
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: for galaxies about the mass of the Milky Way, like

514
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: billions and billions of solar masses. It's around two thirds

515
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: of spiral galaxies that have bars. The more massive the galaxy,

516
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: the smaller the fraction of the spirals have bars. And

517
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: also the less massive the galaxy, the smaller fraction have bars.

518
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: So this is like sweet spot in the middle where

519
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: galaxies are more likely to have bars. And if you

520
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 1: move away from that, lower mass or higher mass than

521
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: the fraction that have bars decreases.

522
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 2: Hmm. Interesting, So it depends on the size and mass

523
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 2: of the galaxy. But maybe let's take it back to

524
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: the basics, because it sounds like there's a lot of

525
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 2: physics going on here, as you might expect from our podcast.

526
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 2: But so what's going on at the center? Like how

527
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,719
Speaker 2: can this bar still be there after all these billions

528
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 2: of years?

529
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: It all comes from asymmetries like little over densities. If

530
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: you start from a galaxy that was perfectly smooth, like

531
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: all the matter was evenly distributed, or like you had

532
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: a cluster of stars that were perfectly distributed in circles

533
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: on perfectly circular orbits, then it wouldn't form a bar.

534
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: But if you tweak it a little bit, like one

535
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: little spot has more density than another spot, then that

536
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: spot's going to have more gravity and it's going to

537
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: attract more stars to it, and so you get these

538
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: density waves forming inside the galaxy. So the same process

539
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: that forms the arms, there's density waves of the arms

540
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: that we describe as like traffic passing through a freeway,

541
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: can also form density structures in the center of the galaxy,

542
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: and in this case they form bars.

543
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: WHA, yeah, I remember we spent the whole episode talking

544
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: about this idea of density waves in a galaxy. It's

545
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 2: not like the arm of a galaxy what you see

546
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: as a swirl, like it doesn't rotate around the galaxy.

547
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 2: It's more like a ripple through a whole bunch of stars.

548
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: Exactly. It's more like a ripple. It's like people doing

549
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: the wave in a football stadium. They're not moving sideways,

550
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: but the wave itself is moving right. And so the

551
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 1: galaxy arms are waves in the density of stars, and

552
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: the bar is the same way. The bar is like

553
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: a density wave. So it's a structure that forms, but

554
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 1: it moves through the stars. It doesn't move at the

555
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: same speed the stars are moving around the galaxy. You

556
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: can move faster, it can move slower.

557
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 2: Wait, what do you mean the bar? Does a bar

558
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 2: rotate and devastates moving?

559
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 5: Like?

560
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: Which which direction is the bar moving?

561
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: The bar rotates the same direction as the galaxy and

562
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: it definitely rotates.

563
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: Oh, kind of like the arms and a clock.

564
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: Kind of like the arms and a clock, and also

565
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: like the arm of the galaxy. Right, Because the arms

566
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: are density waves, they move relative to the stars. So

567
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: one star might be in the density wave and then

568
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: they'll get passed by the density wave, which moves on.

569
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 2: Whoa are there like videos online about this? That would

570
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 2: be cool to see.

571
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: You mean, like actual footage of bars rotating.

572
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: Not like a simulation or something.

573
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love to see that, but the time

574
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: scales are ridiculous, Like the Milky Way takes two hundred

575
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: and fifty million years to rotate, So there's no chance

576
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: for like, watch a galaxy rotate unless you're gonna setator

577
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: camera for tens of millions of years.

578
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: So how do we know it's rotating.

579
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 1: Well, we build up a model of how the galaxy

580
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: works that includes angular momentum, and you need those components

581
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: that rotation to explain what we see. If they weren't rotating,

582
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: there's no angular momentum, then these things would collapse a

583
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: lot faster. A lot of galaxies and a lot of

584
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: these structures are supported by angular momentum. Like, where else

585
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: would the spiral arms come from if it wasn't spinning.

586
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 2: I don't know.

587
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, So we do a lot of simulations to try

588
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: to explain the galaxies we see. We said, well, we'll

589
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: think we understand all the forces at play. We put

590
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: it in the computer, we press the button, it goes,

591
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,719
Speaker 1: and we see what comes out of the simulation. Then

592
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: we compare that to what we see in the sky. Interesting,

593
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: that's what we do to try to explain what's happening

594
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: or try to gain some understanding of the forces at work.

595
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 2: Wow, so nobody's ever actually seen a galaxy swirling. We

596
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: just think it does. I mean, it's the most likely

597
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: or obvious explanation. But still it's a fact that we

598
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 2: haven't seen a galaxy swirl, Like we've only seen a

599
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 2: photograph of it. It's like you've only seen a photograph

600
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: where merry go round. Ever, like you've never seen a

601
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 2: mirror go around move.

602
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: Well, that's true. When we've only even known about other

603
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: galaxies for like one hundred years. It was Hubble who

604
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: saw these little smudges in the sky and deduced their

605
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: distance from analyzing special stars in them, the cephids, whose brightness,

606
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: of course is famously connected to their pulsing frequency. And

607
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: he's the one that understood that these things were outside

608
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: our galaxy. So we only known that other galaxies exist

609
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: for like one hundred years and had good enough telescopes

610
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: to like resolve their structure for a few decades, which

611
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: is basically no time at all relative to their actual emotion.

612
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, we're studying galaxies basically frozen in time.

613
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: Well that's interesting. Now you're saying that about two thirds

614
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: of galaxies have a bar in the middle of them,

615
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 2: and this bar is rotating and rippling through the center

616
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: of the galaxy. Like what's the mechanism for making these bars?

617
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: Like why not? Why a bar shape? Why not a

618
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: star shape or a banana shape.

619
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: I would love to see a banana shape at the

620
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: center of galaxy, and probably there is some galaxy out

621
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: there that has that. Because there's so many galaxies out

622
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: there and so many of them are doing weird things.

623
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: I guess if you think about a galaxy, is banana shape,

624
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: Like each arm is like a banana. So it's like

625
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: if you say you take several bananas and arrange them

626
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: in a star shape, you would get a spiral galaxy.

627
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's true. That's a message from the universe

628
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: that bananas are important, and you.

629
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 2: Cot with them in chocolate this they're galactic.

630
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: And that's why we sell frozen chocolate covered bananas here

631
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: in Orange County.

632
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: That is the purpose of the universe, isn't it? Is

633
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: it deep fried too? Why not fried chocolate covered bananas?

634
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: I think I've had that at a restaurant, actually, But.

635
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: You asked a great question that wasn't about dessert, which

636
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: is why do some galaxies have bars? Why do they

637
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: form bar shapes and not other things? And the answer

638
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: is that we're not sure, Like we don't understand why

639
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: some galaxies form bars and some don't. We don't totally

640
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: understand the mechanism for the bar formation itself. Like we've

641
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: seen this happen in simulation sometimes and it comes out

642
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: of instabilities. You put a bunch of stars a little

643
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: bit closer to each other, they tend to form these

644
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: density waves and what's happening here at the center is

645
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: that the stars are no longer totally in a circular orbit.

646
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: The bar like twists the orbits so that some stars

647
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: are moving more on radial orbits passing close through the

648
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: center of the galaxy.

649
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 2: What do you mean, radar like more oval shape orbits.

650
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, more oval shape, so they're not equally distributed around

651
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: the center of the galaxy. They're like passing back and forth.

652
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, I guess maybe it's sort of rare or

653
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 2: sort of a coinset is that you would have circular

654
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: orbits right Like, if I threw a rock at the

655
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: Sun right now, it would not necessarily go in a

656
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 2: round orbit. It might maybe more likely go in an

657
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: oval shape orbit.

658
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's lots of possible solutions, and a circle is

659
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: like a special case of it. And also to maintain

660
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: a circular orbit requires resisting the tugs and the poles

661
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: of everything else around you. Remember that you're not orbiting

662
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: by yourself. The Earth is being pulled on by Jupiter,

663
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: and Jupiter is being pulled on by everything else. That's

664
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why our orbits are eccentric. So

665
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: the more complicated dynamics you have. The more lack of symmetry,

666
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: the more these things are getting pulled by other stuff,

667
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: the more they're going to fall out of perfectly circular

668
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: orbits and clump together in other kinds of orbits.

669
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: So that you're saying, the stuff at the center of

670
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: our Milky Way galaxy is not necessarily going around in

671
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 2: a circle. It's maybe going in an oval shape around

672
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 2: the center. But then, how does that explain the ripple

673
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: that is the bar or all of these things going

674
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: in an oval in sync.

675
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: Yes, the bar itself is like a denser region which

676
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: passes through the center of the galaxy, and it influences

677
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: other stuff. So gas near the center of the galaxy,

678
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: for example, moves at faster speeds than gas further out,

679
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: So the gas can catch up to the bar and

680
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: pass through it. But then the bar is stronger gravity

681
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: slows it down, so the material tends to lose some energy.

682
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: This actually ends up funneling a bunch more gas towards

683
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: the center of the galaxy and can create new stars

684
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: right there in the bar.

685
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: But then I guess like making a bar so common,

686
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: you're saying about two thirds of galaxy spiral galaxies have

687
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: a bar in them. Why don't we see that effect

688
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: like in other places, like when I flushed the toilet,

689
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: or you know, in our Solar system. Even we don't

690
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: have a bar in our Solar system. I guess we

691
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: don't have spiral arms in our Solar system either, like

692
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: you know, coalesced in through the planets, although we do

693
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: have an asteroid build.

694
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: I think it comes down to the balance of all

695
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: the things at play. You know, we have gravity in

696
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: the Solar System and of course in the galaxy. But

697
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: the galaxy is a lot more friction. You know, there's

698
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: gas and there's this stuff is interacting much more than

699
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: things in the Solar System. So there's a lot more

700
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: transfer of energy between the stuff in the galaxy than

701
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: there is in the Solar system. Solar system is like

702
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: a cleaned up little galaxy. There's not nearly as much

703
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: stuff between the planets as there is between the stars

704
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: in the galaxy. There's a lot more of this exchange

705
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: of energy and friction and stuff bumping into other stuff

706
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: in the galaxy, which can give you more interesting complex

707
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: basically turbulent structure. And we don't know how long these

708
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: bars last. There's some theories that say these bars will

709
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: last forever, and we see some galaxies that have had

710
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: their bars for like ten billion years. There are other

711
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: theories that the bars could be oscillatory, like maybe the

712
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: bar forms, but then the formation of the bar tends

713
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: to destroy the bar, and then another bar forms a

714
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: billion years later. So it could be that every galaxy

715
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: goes through phases where it has a bar and doesn't

716
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: have a bar. These are really open questions in the

717
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: study of galaxy formation.

718
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: Hmmm, it's doing like pull ups or something on a bar,

719
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: going back and forth. But this is an interesting idea

720
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: that it maybe depends on time. Like you're saying they

721
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 2: can come in and out. What do you see when

722
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 2: you look at the galaxies out dre in the universe? Like,

723
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: can't we see them across different ages and times? Yeah?

724
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 2: Do we see that the older galaxies have more bars

725
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: or younger galaxies have more bars? What do we see?

726
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're not sure. We have a lot of

727
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: different clues that sort of point us in different directions.

728
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: Like on one hand, we see some galaxies with really

729
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: really old bars. I was reading a paper about a

730
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: galaxy we're looking at ten billion years in the past,

731
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: and we can see the formation of a bar back then.

732
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: So that's suggest like some bars formed really early in

733
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 1: the universe and may have lasted a really long time.

734
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: Of course, you can't see the same galaxy over time.

735
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, how do we know.

736
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: We don't know necessarily how long a bar lasts when

737
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: it's formed. But in this one particular galaxy, they could

738
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: see evidence of the bar over about ten billion years

739
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: because they could see how the bar had disrupted the

740
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: structure of the galaxy. So it's a little speculative, but

741
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: they think that that bar lasted for about ten billion

742
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: years in that galaxy because of how it like shepherded

743
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 1: the stars and influence the gas to create new stars.

744
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: So it's not everybody that believes that paper, but that

745
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: one paper argues that there are galaxies would really long

746
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: lived bars.

747
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: And then I guess, how do you know that they

748
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 2: can go away?

749
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, another great question. That's again from stimulation. We see

750
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: in some simulations that a bar can like drive gas

751
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: inwards towards the center of the galaxy. It's an over

752
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 1: density and so it pulls stuff in and that can

753
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: disrupt the motion of stars through the galactic core. So

754
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,439
Speaker 1: like the formation of the bar could create gravity, which

755
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 1: pulls in more gas, which ends up disrupting the bar itself.

756
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: So we don't know. And this is the kind of

757
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: thing we study in simulations. And these simulations are never perfect, right,

758
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: You can't include everything in the galaxy in your simulation,

759
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 1: every tiny particle. It would take forever. So whenever they

760
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: do these simulations, they're always making approximations. Well, let's leave

761
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: out the dark matter, or let's ignore this effect or

762
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: something to make it tractable. And so you got lots

763
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: of different simulations with sort of different answers, and people

764
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 1: are still exploring this, like right now, nobody really knows

765
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 1: the answers to these questions.

766
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: So when you simulate it, you add a little asymmetry

767
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 2: or like an offset to the distribution of the stars,

768
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: and then you get a barb. And then what you

769
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 2: see in the simulation is that sometimes the bar disappears

770
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 2: after a while exactly, and then maybe it comes back later.

771
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: And there's some other hints from the simulations. Some suggest

772
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: that it depends on the thickness of the disc. Like

773
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: our galaxies mostly flat, but it's not a totally thin disk.

774
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: It's not like it's a paper thin, right, there's a

775
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: width to the galaxy, and some galaxies have thinner discs,

776
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: and some galaxies have thicker disks. And some of these

777
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: simulations suggest that galaxies with thinner discs or more more

778
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 1: likely to have bars than galaxies with thicker discs in them.

779
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 2: WHOA, what would that be?

780
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: I think it has to do with basically the gravitational

781
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: environment in which a disruption forms, Like if there's a

782
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: lot of other gravity happening anyway, then the small over

783
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: density is less likely to cause a big pile up

784
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: in the galactic spin. Like, for example, you had a

785
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: huge amount of dark matter in your galaxy and then

786
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 1: the gravity of the galaxy is mostly dominated by that

787
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 1: dark matter. In the same way, if you have lots

788
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: of other stars like above and below where the over

789
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: density forms, then those stars are going to tend to

790
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: smooth stuff out because of their gravity. A thicker disc

791
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: might prevent a little over density from turning into a

792
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: big bar.

793
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 2: Interesting, it's like a two D effect, like it only

794
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 2: happens in thin sheets.

795
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it could be. Another study suggested that mergers can

796
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: destroy bars. Remember, spiral galaxies merge and form sometimes new

797
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: spiral galaxies, sometimes elliptical galaxies, and it could be that

798
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: bars are destroyed in these mergers, and then the new

799
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: galaxy doesn't necessarily have a bar. Depends on the instability

800
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: and the formation of the stars in that new galaxy. WHOA,

801
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: but there's another really interesting clue. And to answer a

802
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: question you asked a few minutes ago about whether bars

803
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,240
Speaker 1: form more recently or not, we find that it also

804
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: depends on the mass of the galaxy. So a lot

805
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: of the bars tend to have formed more recently in

806
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: lower mass galaxies. So it might be that lower mass

807
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 1: galaxies take longer to form stars and then take longer

808
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: to form bars. So most of the bars that are

809
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: forming in the universe today we think are in the

810
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: lower mass galaxies. They might not just have had time

811
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: to make a bar until now.

812
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: So you need like time and mass and flatness to

813
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 2: make a bar.

814
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: And some sort of seed, right, some gravitational over density.

815
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: I think it's really fascinating that basically all the structure

816
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: in the universe comes from one place being heavier than another.

817
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: When the universe began, if it was totally smooth, nothing

818
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: would have happened because all the gravity would have been balanced. Basically,

819
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: everything that happened in the universe is because of gravitational imbalances.

820
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely happen, and I definitely have a mass

821
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: imbalance in certain parts of my body. Yeah, it's all good.

822
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: I'm blieveing the chocolate bars. Then, but then, how does

823
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 2: the mass of the galaxy affect these bars? Like, why

824
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: would having more mass or less mass affect the bar formation?

825
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,720
Speaker 1: Because structure formation takes time. Right, Gravity is very very weak,

826
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: and it takes time for gravity to overwhelm these other things.

827
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: It takes time for gravity to pull stars together, it

828
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 1: takes time for those stars to then influence each other.

829
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: So all these things take time. And lower mass galaxies

830
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: have less gravity, so it just takes them longer to

831
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 1: sort of come together and form these things. And structure

832
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: is sort of hierarchical, right, it's bottom up. You build

833
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: the stars, the stars build a galaxy, You build a

834
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: structure on that, and then you build structures on those structures.

835
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: The Bard spiral galaxy is sort of like the pinnacle

836
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: of universal structure. It's like the most complex organized thing

837
00:39:58,600 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: the universe has made so far.

838
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 2: Hmmm, well, it diffinitly sounds like we've raised the bar

839
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: here in terms of galactic mysteries. It seems like this

840
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 2: is still a question for many scientists, and in fact,

841
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 2: it might even have interesting consequences for our conception of

842
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: dark matter and how they influence the formation of these galaxies.

843
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: So let's dig into those dark matters. But first let's

844
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 2: take another quick break.

845
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: Hi.

846
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 3: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

847
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 3: hit the number one science podcast in America. I mean

848
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 3: neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the

849
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 3: three pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a

850
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 3: whole new series of episodes this season to understand why

851
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852
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854
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855
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,080
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856
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,960
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857
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 3: what's running under the hood, bet or we can steer

858
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 3: our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between

859
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,640
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860
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 3: Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app,

861
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862
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,520
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877
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878
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 12: called Jimmy's Three Things. Episodes come out every Tuesday and

879
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 12: for about thirty minutes. I dive into three topics in

880
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 12: Major League Baseball that I am interested in breaking stories, trends, stats,

881
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 12: weird stuff. Sometimes I make up my own stats. Sometimes

882
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 12: I do a lot of research and it ends up

883
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 12: I was wrong the whole time. So that's something you

884
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 12: can get in on. Use Jimmy's Three Things podcasts to

885
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 12: stay up to date on Major League Baseball and to

886
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 12: make you just a smidch smarter than your friend who's

887
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 12: a baseball fan. You listen to me and then you

888
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 12: go tell him, hey, I know this and you don't,

889
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 12: So I make you smarter than your friends. That's what

890
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 12: Jimmy's Three Things is all about. Listen to Jimmy's Three

891
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 12: Things on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

892
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 12: your podcast. You could also find it on the Talking

893
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 12: Baseball YouTube channel and new episodes drop every Tuesday.

894
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 9: We think of Franklin as the doddling dude flying a

895
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 9: kite in the rain, but those experiments are the most

896
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 9: important scientific discoveries of the time.

897
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:25,720
Speaker 1: I'm Evan Ratliff.

898
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 14: Last season we tackled the ingenuity of Elon Musk with

899
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 14: biographer Walter Isaacson. This time we're diving into the story

900
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 14: of Benjamin Franklin, another genius who's desperate to be dusted

901
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 14: off from history.

902
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 9: His media empire makes him the most successful self made

903
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 9: business person in America.

904
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: I mean, he was.

905
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 9: Never early to bed, an early to rise type person.

906
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 9: He's enormously famous, women short wearing their hair and what

907
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 9: was called the coiffor a la Franklin.

908
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: And who's more relevant now than ever.

909
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 9: The only other person who could have possibly than the

910
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 9: fresh president would have been Benjamin Franklin.

911
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: But he's too old and wants Washington.

912
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: To do it.

913
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 14: Listen to On Benjamin Franklin with Walter Isaacson on the

914
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 14: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

915
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 2: Right, we're talking about galactic bars now, Daniel. Is this

916
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 2: where single stars go to meet other single stars.

917
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: This is where molecular clouds hang out, hoping to one

918
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: day make stars.

919
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: They're like celebrity bars. You see a lot of stars

920
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,359
Speaker 2: in them.

921
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: This is where stars are born. Baby.

922
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we talked about how we're not quite

923
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: one hundred percent sure why some galaxies are bars. It

924
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 2: seems like it's just a matter of the physics, like

925
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 2: the weirdness of how stars and the gravity interact and

926
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: form ripples in a cluster of stars. But there is

927
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 2: sort of another component to it, which is dark matter. Right,

928
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: dark matter plays a big role in galaxies form, how

929
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: fast they form, what shapes they have, and so what

930
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 2: do these bars tell us about dark matter?

931
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're exactly right. And remember that the stars themselves

932
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: are just like tracers that tell you where most of

933
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: the mass is in the universe. So most of the dynamics,

934
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: the gravitational forces are hidden from us. We live in

935
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: a dark universe where we only see a tiny, little

936
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 1: fraction of what's going on out there. So by studying

937
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: the motion of the gas and the dust and the stars,

938
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: we could try to get a glimpse for what's going on,

939
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: sort of behind the curtain where the fuller picture of

940
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,959
Speaker 1: the universe is. And you're absolutely right that dark matter

941
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: controls the formation of the galaxies. We wouldn't have galaxies

942
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: this early in the universe if it wasn't for dark matter.

943
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: Eighty percent of the matter in the universe is dark matter,

944
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: but more like ninety percent of the matter in galaxies

945
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: is dark matter, So galaxies are basically mostly dark matter.

946
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: And because dark matter feels gravity. It has a huge

947
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: influence on gravitational turbulence, like the formation of bars. Absolutely.

948
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 2: So all this time that we've been talking about the

949
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: mass of a galaxy, I thought we were talking about

950
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 2: the stars, But are we also talking about the mass

951
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 2: due to dark matter?

952
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking about the total mass, not just the

953
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: visible mass of the galaxy.

954
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 2: Or are they pre correlated, Like the more stars you

955
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 2: see in a galaxy, the more dark matter it has.

956
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, great question. We did a podcast recently about the

957
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: variation of dark matter in galaxies. Most galaxies have around

958
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: ninety percent of their mass is dark matter, but there

959
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: is a variation. There's some that are like ninety nine

960
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: percent dark matter and some that have almost none or

961
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,479
Speaker 1: maybe zero dark matter. It tells a really fun story

962
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: about the history of galaxies and how they form and

963
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 1: merge and might even strip each other of dark matter

964
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: on the whole. There's a reasonable correlation, and like ninety

965
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: percent of a galaxy's mass is invisible ninety percent ninety percent.

966
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, but isn't like the proportion of the universe something

967
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: like five to one dark matter to normal matter.

968
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so galaxies tend to have more dark matter than

969
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: most of the universe.

970
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 2: Why is that? Is it just because there's a lot

971
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 2: of like stars and does kind of in between galaxies

972
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 2: out there.

973
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: It's because dark matter is really responsible for the formation

974
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: of galaxies, and once a galaxy forms, it's hard for

975
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: it to lose its dark matter, but it's possible for

976
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 1: it to lose its gas and its dust and even

977
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: its stars. There's all sorts of processes that tend to

978
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: blow out gas and dust from a galaxy, you know,

979
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: supernova or radiation from the central black hole. All these

980
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: things can push normal matter out of a galaxy, but

981
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,919
Speaker 1: they don't affect its dark matter. So the dark matter

982
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: is sort of there in the background, forming the gravitational

983
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: structure on which the rest of the universe lives, and

984
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: it's much less influenced by everything else that happens to

985
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: the normal matter.

986
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 2: Okay, so if our galaxy is ninety percent dark matter,

987
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 2: I would think that was like the most powerful thing

988
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 2: that The term is the shape with the galaxy. So

989
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,720
Speaker 2: does that mean that the dark matter in our galaxy

990
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,399
Speaker 2: is also in a spiral shape and maybe also has

991
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 2: a bar of dark matter in the middle.

992
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, great question. We don't know the answer to that

993
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: because we don't know the distribution of dark matter in

994
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: the galaxy with a lot of precision. We know roughly

995
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: that it's denser in the core and then it's spread

996
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 1: out like a big halo. But we also know something

997
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,959
Speaker 1: about the physics of dark matter. We know that dark

998
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: matter doesn't feel friction with other dark matter the way

999
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: normal matter does. Like two clouds of gas that pass

1000
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: through each other will exchange energy and one of them

1001
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: will tend to fall towards the center for example. These

1002
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: kinds of energy exchanges just don't happen for dark matter

1003
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 1: because dark matter passes right through itself. It only feels gravity,

1004
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: and gravity is not strong enough for those kinds of exchanges,

1005
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: So the complex structures you see forming in normal matter

1006
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: don't always happen in dark matter. That's why we think

1007
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: dark matter is sort of a bigger, fluffier halo than

1008
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: the more compact visible matter in the galaxy.

1009
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: The shape of the regular stars is mostly due to gravity, right,

1010
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 2: and dark matter feels gravity with itself, doesn't it.

1011
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: It's mostly due to gravity, but also crucially relies on

1012
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: losing energy. Like if stuff is just swirling around gravitationally,

1013
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: it won't collapse nearly as easily if it's not sticky,

1014
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: if it just passes right through itself. When things are

1015
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 1: orbiting a black hole, for example, they could orbit there forever,

1016
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: but they're much more likely to fall in if they

1017
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: exchange some energy, so one of them gives up energy

1018
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: to another one rather than passing right through.

1019
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 2: You mean, like if the stuff swirling around crashes with

1020
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 2: itself or like bumps into itself, then it's going to

1021
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 2: lose some energy.

1022
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, So things are just much more stable if there's

1023
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,879
Speaker 1: no interactions other than gravity. The other interactions, they tend

1024
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: to exchange energy, and then stuff can fall into the

1025
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: center to make stars, or to make galaxies, or to

1026
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 1: make arms, this kind of stuff. But the truth is,

1027
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: we don't really know what structure there is to the

1028
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: dark matter. We don't have a lot of great probes

1029
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: for exactly where the dark matter is throughout the galaxy.

1030
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 2: It could be a dark chocolate bar in the middle.

1031
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 2: It could be just like a moose spread out throughout

1032
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 2: the whole galaxy.

1033
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: It could be We're getting better and better techniques to

1034
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: map where the dark matter is in the galaxy, but

1035
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 1: we don't have a very accurate picture. But you know,

1036
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,879
Speaker 1: simple models of the physics of dark matter tell us

1037
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: how it should be distributed, though we don't know if

1038
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 1: those models are accurate, of course.

1039
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: But then in all these simulations you're talking about where

1040
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 2: we are finding out all these things about the bars,

1041
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 2: do they include dark matter in those simulations? And because

1042
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 2: of assumptions do you have to make there.

1043
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 1: They do include dark matter, and they treat dark matter

1044
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: as like a collisionless fluid, just sort of like they're

1045
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 1: in the backdrop of providing more gravity. And the dark

1046
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: matter does definitely influence the formation of bars in these simulations.

1047
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: The more dark matter you have, the less often you

1048
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: get a bar, even when you have some sort of

1049
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: like gravitational instability or over density in the visible matter.

1050
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 2: So does dark matter help the bars or prevent the bars?

1051
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: It prevents the bars from forming. So the more dark

1052
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: matter you have, the more it tends to smooth out

1053
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,760
Speaker 1: the gravity of the disc, just like having a thicker

1054
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 1: disc right as you were saying earlier, sort of like

1055
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: a two D effect, the more three D your galaxy becomes,

1056
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: the less susceptible it is to these effects. In the

1057
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: same way, dark matter basically reduces the effect of gravity

1058
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: of the visible matter provides this like background gravity pulling

1059
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: on everything.

1060
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 2: I see, Like it evens out the strength of gravity

1061
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 2: in the galaxy, right, because you think dark matter is

1062
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 2: distributed spread all over the place. The more significant that is,

1063
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: the more generally speaking gravity is in that galaxy exactly.

1064
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 2: And so if you have no dark matter, do you

1065
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: always get a bar?

1066
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: Nothing happens every time in simulation, but the proportion definitely

1067
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: goes up if you have no dark matter. But we

1068
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 1: don't expect that to happen in the universe very often,

1069
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: as we talked about recently on the podcast. We don't

1070
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 1: think galaxies can form without dark matter, though they might

1071
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: later be stripped of their dark matter in some collisions,

1072
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: but then collisions are also going to destroy a bar.

1073
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 2: So is the bar kind of a sign of how

1074
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 2: much dark matter there is in a galaxy then.

1075
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. And people have used bars to try to

1076
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: measure the dark matter fraction in galaxies. Like if you

1077
00:51:58,040 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: look up at the night sky and you measure the

1078
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 1: action of galaxies that have bars in them, that tells

1079
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: you something about how much dark matter there can be

1080
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: in those galaxies. Because if there's a lot of dark

1081
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: matter in all those galaxies, they wouldn't have bars, and

1082
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:12,919
Speaker 1: if there was less dark matter in those galaxies, more

1083
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 1: of them would have bars. So we can actually use

1084
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 1: the bars as a way to like indirectly estimate the

1085
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: dark matter fraction of the universe in a way that's

1086
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: separate from like the galactic rotation speed or any of

1087
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: the other probes.

1088
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: You mean, like the bar sets the bar for dark matter.

1089
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it raises the bar on our understanding.

1090
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,399
Speaker 2: Our precision to measure dark matter.

1091
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is not a very precise measurement because we

1092
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: don't have that many galaxies where we can measure this

1093
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: kind of thing. But it's consistent with everything else we

1094
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: know about dark matter. So the fraction of galaxies with

1095
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: bars is consistent with our understanding that eighty percent of

1096
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: the matter in the universe is dark matter and something

1097
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,439
Speaker 1: like ninety percent of the matter in galaxies is dark matter.

1098
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 2: And then what percentage is Hershy's chocolate versus snob chocolate?

1099
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: I see, now you're disparaging people's chocolates. All right, I

1100
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: can take it if I can dish it out and

1101
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: I can take it. That's fair. I'm sure that Hershey's

1102
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 1: dominates the chocolate market, but I'm glad that they are

1103
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: now a variety of chocolate offerings for people to enjoy.

1104
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: All right, Well, another interesting feature of our galaxy and

1105
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 2: of our universe the way physics works to create these

1106
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 2: weird characteristics of the things we see out there, which

1107
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: then kind of reveal what things are made of and

1108
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 2: how things work in the grand cosmic scale things.

1109
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it's just part of the game we are playing,

1110
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: looking out at the night sky and out deep into

1111
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,720
Speaker 1: the universe to try to get a handle on what's

1112
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,359
Speaker 1: going on out there, what structures form, why do they form,

1113
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 1: and what do they reveal about the clash of titanic

1114
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: forces that's happening underneath it all.

1115
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 2: It sounds like these bars are giving us a good

1116
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:58,280
Speaker 2: handle on galaxy formation and dark matter content of the universe.

1117
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to go hit the lunch bar after this.

1118
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 2: Just don't hit the dessert bar too hard.

1119
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: Depends on the kind of chocolate.

1120
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 2: Let's read the brand apparently.

1121
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: Love all You and Love all your chocolate choices. Keep

1122
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 1: chomping on bars. That sounds really credible, Danny. I'm working

1123
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:20,320
Speaker 1: on it, man, I'm working on it.

1124
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 2: All right. Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for

1125
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 2: joining us. See you next time.

1126
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social

1127
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: media where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, This, Org,

1128
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: Instant and now TikTok. Thanks for listening and remember that

1129
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio.

1130
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:49,399
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1131
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you

1132
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, probably not

1133
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 1: thinking about the environmental impact, but the people in the

1134
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day

1135
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources,

1136
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 1: and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. How is us dairy

1137
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,959
Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn

1138
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 1: the methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

1139
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 1: and electric cars. Visit you as dairy dot COM's Last

1140
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Speaker 1: Sustainability to learn more.

1141
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 2: Guess what will?

1142
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 6: What's that Mango?

1143
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 7: I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast,

1144
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 7: Part Time Genius, but even though we've done over two

1145
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Speaker 7: hundred and fifty episodes. We don't really talk about murders

1146
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Speaker 7: or cults.

1147
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 6: I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese,

1148
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 6: so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We

1149
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,320
Speaker 6: also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food?

1150
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 6: And how do dollar stores make money? And then of

1151
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 6: course can you game a dog show? So what you're

1152
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 6: saying is everyone should be listening. Listen to part Time

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Speaker 6: Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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