WEBVTT - UFO Hunting in the Photoshop Age

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<v Speaker 1>Since the dawn of civilization, humankind has been searching for

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<v Speaker 1>a sign that we're not alone in the universe, and

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<v Speaker 1>every once in a while we think we found it.

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<v Speaker 1>In France, like America, the flying saucer, Miss Graham makes headlines.

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<v Speaker 1>A young Frenchman photographed this flying the whole sort of

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<v Speaker 1>UFO phenomenon. The UFO craze starts in the summer of

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen seven with a private pilot by the name of

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<v Speaker 1>Kenneth Arnold in Washington State. This is Greg Gigeon, history

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<v Speaker 1>professor at Penn State, talking about one of the first

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<v Speaker 1>major UFO sightings. The pilot reported seeing nine strange objects

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<v Speaker 1>flying in a tight formation. They were flat and roundish,

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<v Speaker 1>and he'd never seen anything like them before. Newspapers get

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<v Speaker 1>hold of it and take it up, and uh, that's

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<v Speaker 1>where the first time the phrasing of flying saucers came from.

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<v Speaker 1>UFOs quickly became a pop culture phenomenon. In Washington, ghost

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<v Speaker 1>like objects dart across the radar screen at the CIA

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<v Speaker 1>traffic controls under at National Airport for several hours, traveling

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<v Speaker 1>more than one About as long as there have been

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<v Speaker 1>reported encounters, people have been faking them too, but recently

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<v Speaker 1>something has happened that changed it every bit as much

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<v Speaker 1>as that flight in and that's digital technology, cell phone cameras,

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<v Speaker 1>social media, and especially video and photo editing software. These programs,

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<v Speaker 1>like Photoshop, they're capable of making celebrities look thinner, lighting

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<v Speaker 1>look better, and anything seemed possible, and UFO researchers started

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<v Speaker 1>to realize they hadn't seen anything yet. Hi, I'm pg

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<v Speaker 1>at Cary and I am Astin Weinstein. And this week

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<v Speaker 1>on Decrypted, we're taking a look at what it means

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<v Speaker 1>for society when it becomes nearly impossible to tell whether

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<v Speaker 1>a photo or video has been manipulated. It's part of

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<v Speaker 1>our ongoing look at the unintended consequences of technology, where

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<v Speaker 1>we're examining how Silicon Valley's best laid plans can go awry.

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<v Speaker 1>Programs like Adobe Photoshop offer huge new possibilities for artists

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<v Speaker 1>and designers, but it also means that government's dishonest news organizations,

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<v Speaker 1>even UFO hoaxers, they can change their perception of what's

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<v Speaker 1>real and what's not. Stay with us. Today's UFO craze

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<v Speaker 1>has some of the same characteristics of other fake news trends.

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<v Speaker 1>We're seeing today distrust of the government, slickly produced videos,

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<v Speaker 1>and irresistibly wild content. It's stopped. It looks like it's

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<v Speaker 1>stopped in the sky. It's not a plane, dude. I've

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<v Speaker 1>always loved these weird internet communities. So I started poking

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<v Speaker 1>around on YouTube watching some the videos. I quickly realized

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<v Speaker 1>that there's so many types of UFO videos. Many of

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<v Speaker 1>them are your straight up UFO sightings. Could be I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know, it's totelings, so I don't think it's a

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<v Speaker 1>popular Also, it looks weird, guys, I look making the

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<v Speaker 1>shop a really who crew worked? Could? These videos are shaky?

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<v Speaker 1>They look like they were shot on somebody's cell phone.

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<v Speaker 1>And this one we can see the roofs of some

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<v Speaker 1>houses and a dark cloud in the sky, and near

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<v Speaker 1>the top there's a white flashing light that's moving fast.

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<v Speaker 1>There are some other niche subject areas to like a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of accounts that focus on space weather. I saw

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<v Speaker 1>some that allege a hidden secret beneath Antarctica PA. You

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't say you're an expert in photoshop for photo manipulation

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<v Speaker 1>or video manipulation. That I would not, So I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to see what you thought one of these videos and

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<v Speaker 1>whether they could trick you sort of. I'm gonna play

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<v Speaker 1>a video for you called UFO, filmed a farm in

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<v Speaker 1>California by a channel called UFO Seekers. Seekers was headed

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<v Speaker 1>out again to see if we could catch anything flying

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<v Speaker 1>through the area. Okay, it's a dark sky, there's nothing there. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>yes there is. There's a dot of light that just

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<v Speaker 1>shot across the screen. Okay, it looks like a star,

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<v Speaker 1>except it's like bouncing around. So be it? Is it convincing?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I would say so. My head tells me

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<v Speaker 1>that maybe I shouldn't trust what I'm seeing, but I

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<v Speaker 1>can't tell whether the footage is real or not. As

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<v Speaker 1>I was clicking through YouTube watching some of the videos,

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<v Speaker 1>it didn't take long before I was watching videos that

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<v Speaker 1>mixed these UFO sightings with talk of government cover ups

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<v Speaker 1>and dubious scientific claims. So there's no question that conspiracy

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<v Speaker 1>is a sort of a the sam and a plot

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<v Speaker 1>that's Greg the history professor, that is a part of

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<v Speaker 1>the UFO phenomenon. And so from a very early stage,

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<v Speaker 1>there's this idea being circulated that groups of actors there

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<v Speaker 1>are people behind the scenes who are who know no

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<v Speaker 1>more than they're letting on. Prominent conspiracy theorists like Alex

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<v Speaker 1>Jones from info Wars have talked about UFOs with their audiences.

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<v Speaker 1>So image giant spaceships landing their doors open and tentacles

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<v Speaker 1>all come out or pods all come out. Let's say

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<v Speaker 1>it's wireless, but tentacles are scarier because we're designed, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>for tentacles and teeth and things attacking us. So let's

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<v Speaker 1>go without an allegory. And one of the biggest UFO

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<v Speaker 1>channels on YouTube and account, called security m ten, also

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<v Speaker 1>mixes UFO sightings and conspiracy theory. Security ten has one

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<v Speaker 1>point eight million subscribers and its videos have been watched

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<v Speaker 1>nearly half a billion times. Aside from just the black budget,

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<v Speaker 1>there is another even deeper, underground black budget that has

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<v Speaker 1>been and continues to be used to fund this operation.

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<v Speaker 1>Not to mention that some of this technology used is

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<v Speaker 1>a result of reverse engineered alien craft. Furthermore, as I've

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<v Speaker 1>always said, and it's not just me, many whistleblowers everything,

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<v Speaker 1>as these fakes go viral, they're already having consequences for

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<v Speaker 1>global affairs. We know, for example, that North Korea has

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<v Speaker 1>doctored images of its military capabilities and images of politicians

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<v Speaker 1>seeming to do things that they in fact did not do,

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<v Speaker 1>becoming more and more common by the day. UFO spotting

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't always like this. You can create fakes camera if

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<v Speaker 1>you know how to do it. That's Bruce mccabee. He's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a godfather of view of OO spotting. He

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<v Speaker 1>talked to me about cases in New Zealand and Mexico

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<v Speaker 1>where he investigated alleged UFO sighting days when they only

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<v Speaker 1>have black and white if you do it yourself quite easily.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the most common types of thanks to think

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<v Speaker 1>about is a so called double exposure. But since the

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<v Speaker 1>days of detecting fake UFO sightings by looking for double

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<v Speaker 1>exposures and other signs of dark room trickery, there's been

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<v Speaker 1>a revolution in editing technology. We wanted to talk to

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<v Speaker 1>one of the people who's taking advantage of the medium

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<v Speaker 1>and who's inside the modern UFO community. Well, I'm Heathcliff

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<v Speaker 1>Spencer of Petis and I'm from the Netherlands and my

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<v Speaker 1>full time job is Heathcliff Spencer. Peters runs a channel

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<v Speaker 1>called the Lions Ground, which has about seventy thousand subscribers

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<v Speaker 1>on YouTube, and quite a few of his videos Heathcliff

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<v Speaker 1>is standing in front of a backdrop that looks like

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<v Speaker 1>he's on a spaceship, and his videos have titles like

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<v Speaker 1>bizarre UFO shaped cloud over Moscow, caught on camera or

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<v Speaker 1>strange white bright orb over San Antonio. What is it?

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<v Speaker 1>This YouTube channel makes exciting both fectual videos about u

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<v Speaker 1>f O, secret societies, paranormal experiences or stories and everything

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<v Speaker 1>in the BOO framework. You hear me, you see me?

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<v Speaker 1>And Heathcliffe says he started making videos after a few

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<v Speaker 1>things in his life went wrong. So how did you

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<v Speaker 1>end up homeless? Wrong? Little friends, But he says he

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<v Speaker 1>tapped into a community of counterculture YouTubers. Eventually, he says,

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<v Speaker 1>he made it into a full time job, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>different from the older generation of UFO researchers like Bruce mccabee,

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<v Speaker 1>who pursued this on the side most of the time. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I noticed that a lot of the videos I was

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<v Speaker 1>watching had ads running on them. Every time someone views

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<v Speaker 1>one of these ads, a small amount of money flows

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<v Speaker 1>back to the video creator. Some of the bigger accounts

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<v Speaker 1>like Securit Team ten also use Patreon. That's a website

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<v Speaker 1>that lets people set up payments to content creators so

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<v Speaker 1>viewers can directly support someone's work. I discovered the audiences

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<v Speaker 1>for these videos are very engaged. Heathcliff's page has a

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<v Speaker 1>very active comments section, and he told me he gets

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<v Speaker 1>some of the material for his videos from his audience.

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<v Speaker 1>How often do you get sent examples of a UFO,

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<v Speaker 1>a siting or what have you? Oh? Not much, I

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<v Speaker 1>think between the TWN and the twenty per day per day. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I asked YouTube what their policy was on these UFO videos.

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<v Speaker 1>They said misinformation is not against their community guidelines even

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<v Speaker 1>if it goes viral. For a video to be removed,

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<v Speaker 1>it would have to be considered harassment or hate speech,

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<v Speaker 1>or violate some other guideline. YouTube spokes first and Jessica

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<v Speaker 1>Mason did say that advertisers can opt out of showing

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<v Speaker 1>their videos on paranormal or cult topics like a denial

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<v Speaker 1>of the moon landing or a UFO citing. So unabated

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<v Speaker 1>by YouTube, these videos spread and there are other forums

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<v Speaker 1>to like Facebook and Reddit where people can discuss UFOs, aliens,

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<v Speaker 1>all manner of paranormal activity. So perhaps it's no surprise

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<v Speaker 1>that UFO siting is a way up compared to a

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<v Speaker 1>few decades ago. The National UFO Reporting Center in Davenport, Washington,

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<v Speaker 1>which is not a federal agency by the way, says

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<v Speaker 1>there were three UFO reports in the month of July

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<v Speaker 1>this year. That's down from about seven hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 1>sightings in July, but still way way higher than in

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<v Speaker 1>the Obviously, the Internet makes it easier than ever to

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<v Speaker 1>report a formal sighting. The Internet also makes it easier

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<v Speaker 1>for these videos to spread, and crucially, it's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>easier now to alter a photo to show evidence of

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<v Speaker 1>extraterrestrial life, and it was when people had to double

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<v Speaker 1>expose their own film in the guard room. Part of

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<v Speaker 1>the reason there's such a wealth of UFO videos right

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<v Speaker 1>now is that these days it's easy to access a

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<v Speaker 1>photo or video editing program. So we went to the

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<v Speaker 1>maker of one of the most widely available programs to

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<v Speaker 1>ask them what they thought of how their creation had

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<v Speaker 1>taken on a life of its own. We talked to Adobe.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Steven Nielson, the director of product management for Photoshop.

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<v Speaker 1>Stephen agreed that tools like Photoshop have made it easier

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<v Speaker 1>for anyone to manipulate an image. People are manipulating photographs

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<v Speaker 1>well before photoshop, but photoshop and digital technology really enabled

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<v Speaker 1>enabled higher quality result and made it much more accessible.

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<v Speaker 1>But he said that while photoshop helped people make fake images,

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<v Speaker 1>most people were creating images that were interesting and artistic.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the conversation was Victoria Nie. I'm the product

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<v Speaker 1>manager for Motion Graphics and Visual Effects that Adobe. I

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<v Speaker 1>cover after effects primarily. Victoria agreed that yes, Adobe's programs

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<v Speaker 1>have helped democratize fakery, but they can also be used

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<v Speaker 1>to detective fake as well. These same tools that can

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<v Speaker 1>be used to create uh create content can also be

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<v Speaker 1>used sometimes to detect when something has been manipulated, and

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<v Speaker 1>so there are things that you can do in both

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<v Speaker 1>after effects and in Photoshop that will help you see that.

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<v Speaker 1>If you push the contrast, for instance, you can see

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<v Speaker 1>that the noise in this part of the video is

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<v Speaker 1>different than in this other part of the video, and

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<v Speaker 1>so clearly these came from different sources. The problem is

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<v Speaker 1>most people aren't photoshop experts, so it's very hard to

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<v Speaker 1>detect good fakes. While it's true most of us can't

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<v Speaker 1>spot a fraud, there are a few people who can.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Dan gel Lotos. I am a visual

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<v Speaker 1>effects artist. Dean's worked on everything from big budget blockbusters

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<v Speaker 1>to History Channel programs. One day was working a show,

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<v Speaker 1>I think it was a a show for the Weather

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<v Speaker 1>Channel called Deadliest Space Weather and he started looking up

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<v Speaker 1>UFO videos on YouTube, and he was shocked by how

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<v Speaker 1>obviously fake many of the videos were. To his trained eyes.

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<v Speaker 1>The hoaxers were getting away with lying to so many people,

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<v Speaker 1>so he decided to debunk what he was seeing. I

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<v Speaker 1>know a lot of people come to the subject of

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<v Speaker 1>UFOs because they've had an experience that they can't explain.

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<v Speaker 1>The fact that there are people out there exploiting this

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<v Speaker 1>genuine curiosity these people had is just galling to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Dean started a YouTube account called the UFO Theater. He

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<v Speaker 1>has about subscribers. He posts videos there every couple of months.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome fellow freaks to UFO Theater. I'm constantine. You know

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<v Speaker 1>there are six point three million UFO related videos on YouTube,

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<v Speaker 1>with more being at it every day. How do you

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<v Speaker 1>know which ones are worth watching? How do you know

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<v Speaker 1>which ones are fake? That's why I'm here to tell

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<v Speaker 1>you what's real and what's crap. Whenever there's a place,

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<v Speaker 1>as we said, for Dean, most of these videos were

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<v Speaker 1>easy to debunk, so I asked him to walk me

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<v Speaker 1>through one. This video comes from the Securit Team ten channel.

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<v Speaker 1>It's titled NASA cuts Live Space Feed HD UFO appears

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<v Speaker 1>at I that's an old caps by the way, now,

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<v Speaker 1>this is not the first time that we've captured a

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<v Speaker 1>faux phenomenon on the I S S live stream. However,

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<v Speaker 1>it is the first time that we've caused something and

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<v Speaker 1>recorded it from NASA's newly created live Earth Stream page.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're looking at a feed that we're told in

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<v Speaker 1>the video comes from NASA's High Definition Earth Viewing System.

0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.040
<v Speaker 1>It's aboard the International Space Station. It's basically a big

0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:25.360
<v Speaker 1>HD camera that's been constantly streaming the Earth since so

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<v Speaker 1>nothing seems to be happening in the video. It's dark,

0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:29.920
<v Speaker 1>but you can kind of make out the curvature of

0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.200
<v Speaker 1>the Earth, and there's a solar panel that's presumably part

0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:34.920
<v Speaker 1>of the I S S that's off to the right.

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<v Speaker 1>For a while, we're just looking at the Earth. Then

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<v Speaker 1>the image cuts to a gray screen. NASA directly after

0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.200
<v Speaker 1>that had put up a notice on their live stream

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<v Speaker 1>page indicating that they would be disabling and taking down

0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.680
<v Speaker 1>the live stream feed for good. Thankfully someone decided to

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<v Speaker 1>put this termination. The host of Secure Team, Tyler Glockner,

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<v Speaker 1>says this is NASA censoring the image, but according to

0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:00.640
<v Speaker 1>the NASA page in the video, this race screen is

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<v Speaker 1>just what happens when the experiment is switching cameras or

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<v Speaker 1>communications on available. That's when Tyler claims he captures the

0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 1>footage before it's censored and finds a triangular shaped UFO.

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<v Speaker 1>All he did was he took some video that was

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<v Speaker 1>shot from the International Space Station. This is Dean again,

0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:25.760
<v Speaker 1>and he just laid over a little bit of a

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<v Speaker 1>a triangular shape UFO over the footage, and then he

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<v Speaker 1>cut in this title card that says we've lost the feet.

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<v Speaker 1>So he claimed that this was authentic video that showed

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<v Speaker 1>that not only were there extraterrestrials out there in orbit

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<v Speaker 1>around Earth, but that NASA doesn't want you to see them.

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<v Speaker 1>We tried to interview Tyler, but he never responded to us.

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<v Speaker 1>Dean is a visual effects artist, so he's an expert

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<v Speaker 1>in this stuff, but he's no match for the rising

0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.280
<v Speaker 1>tide of UFO content, let alone the rest of the

0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.920
<v Speaker 1>conspiracy theories and the fake news that's making the rounds online.

0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:10.640
<v Speaker 1>When Dean's videos do really well, they get maybe twenty views,

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<v Speaker 1>but that's only a tiny fraction of the number of

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<v Speaker 1>people who watched the original videos. He tries to be bunk.

0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.120
<v Speaker 1>I asked Dan why he still makes these videos. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know how much of an impact I'm making, but

0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:29.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm constantly getting, for lack of a better term, fan

0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.120
<v Speaker 1>mail from people who say, thank you for for showing

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<v Speaker 1>you that this is not real, and thank you for

0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.600
<v Speaker 1>helping me be skeptical about what I'm seeing. It's a

0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.360
<v Speaker 1>good point. As a society, we're only just learning how

0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:44.680
<v Speaker 1>to be skeptical of what we look at online, or rather,

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<v Speaker 1>what we see online is becoming harder to discern from reality,

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<v Speaker 1>and now artificial intelligence can make what's called deep fakes,

0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:56.680
<v Speaker 1>which are incredibly convincing but totally fabricated videos of essentially

0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:01.960
<v Speaker 1>anyone saying essentially anything. Recently, we've seen other tech companies

0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.960
<v Speaker 1>pledged to regulate themselves better and contain the unintended consequences

0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.000
<v Speaker 1>of their technology. I'm thinking, especially if the social media

0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:12.439
<v Speaker 1>companies like Facebook and Twitter, which have essentially been forced

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<v Speaker 1>to change their product in the wake of election interference.

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<v Speaker 1>When I spoke to Stephen and Victoria from Adobe, I

0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.639
<v Speaker 1>did ask them whether it would be theoretically possible for

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<v Speaker 1>Adobe to try and catch users in the act of

0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.359
<v Speaker 1>creating a fake So there's really no way from a

0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:33.120
<v Speaker 1>programmatic standpoint to detect why someone is making something. I mean,

0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:35.560
<v Speaker 1>you wouldn't want to. For instance, even in this case

0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:40.080
<v Speaker 1>block it blocks satire, and yet that would be doing

0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:43.680
<v Speaker 1>exactly the same kind of image manipulation with say current

0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:47.399
<v Speaker 1>event video. Well, Photoshop does have a mechanism to detect

0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.760
<v Speaker 1>whether people are using the program to make fake currency,

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<v Speaker 1>but Stephen said that trying to do the same thing

0:17:53.600 --> 0:18:01.200
<v Speaker 1>for other types of content would be much harder. So

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<v Speaker 1>Austin seems like just another instance of a technology that

0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.719
<v Speaker 1>comes into the world with one purpose and creates this

0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.639
<v Speaker 1>whole slate of unintended consequences. Right. In this case, the

0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:15.040
<v Speaker 1>unintended consequence is that we really can't trust what we

0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.879
<v Speaker 1>see online anymore. Yeah, I mean that's a good and

0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:22.760
<v Speaker 1>bad thing in some aspect. It's good that we're less

0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.399
<v Speaker 1>believing of things that are edited, but bad in the

0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:30.280
<v Speaker 1>sense that it negates some societal trust. I just worry

0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.160
<v Speaker 1>that it feels a bit like a losing battle. I mean,

0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.480
<v Speaker 1>we're already at a point where you basically need to

0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.040
<v Speaker 1>be a visual effects artist like Dean to be able

0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.600
<v Speaker 1>to spot what's real and what's not. And with the

0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.119
<v Speaker 1>stuff you just mentioned about AI and deep fakes, it's

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<v Speaker 1>only going to get harder from here. The technology kind

0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.960
<v Speaker 1>of feels at odds with human nature a bit that

0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:52.199
<v Speaker 1>we want to believe things and we won't want to

0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.879
<v Speaker 1>find things that are evidence to what we believe already.

0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Stephen from Adobe mentioned this in our interview, and I

0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:04.040
<v Speaker 1>think you probably what what is partially at play here

0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:08.320
<v Speaker 1>is confirmation bias. There is a natural human tendency to

0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:13.439
<v Speaker 1>just look for confirming evidence, you know, evidence that that

0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:21.680
<v Speaker 1>supports your your existing belief and discarding evidence that contradicts

0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.440
<v Speaker 1>that believe So in the end, no matter how many

0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:27.000
<v Speaker 1>videos you watch, you might not change your mind about

0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.399
<v Speaker 1>basically anything at all, which means that trying to right

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.440
<v Speaker 1>wrongs and combat fake news is more important than ever.

0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:37.679
<v Speaker 1>But it's also just really really hard. That though leaves

0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:40.600
<v Speaker 1>us with Dean in a spare time doing what it can,

0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:47.160
<v Speaker 1>does it ever feel kind of fruitless or like you're

0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.040
<v Speaker 1>marching upper River? Yeah? Well it is. It is definitely

0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:55.000
<v Speaker 1>like um um trying to build out the ocean with

0:19:55.080 --> 0:20:07.440
<v Speaker 1>it with a bucket. And that's it for this week's Decrypted.

0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.760
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening. Do you watch UFO videos on YouTube

0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.000
<v Speaker 1>that you've fallen for a fake? Do you create fakes?

0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:16.560
<v Speaker 1>We want to hear from you. You can email us

0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.200
<v Speaker 1>at Decrypted at bloomberg dot net or I'm on Twitter

0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.840
<v Speaker 1>at oust wine A U S g W E, I M,

0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:26.840
<v Speaker 1>and I'm at Patari. If you're a fan of the show,

0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:29.439
<v Speaker 1>please take a moment to rate and review us. It

0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.280
<v Speaker 1>really helps new listeners find the show. This episode was

0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.920
<v Speaker 1>produced by Pia Gadkari and Magnus Hendrickson. Our story editor

0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.960
<v Speaker 1>was Ann Vandermay. Thanks also to Brad Stone, aki Eto,

0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:45.160
<v Speaker 1>Emily Bus, Liz Smith, and Toford for us. Francesco Leavey

0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.560
<v Speaker 1>is head of Bloomberg Podcast. We'll see you next week.