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Speaker 3: It's very difficult to keep the line between the.

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Speaker 6: Past and the pass you believe that someone out of

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Speaker 6: the past can enter and take possession of a living.

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Speaker 1: We may be through with the past, but the past

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Speaker 1: is not through with us.

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Speaker 7: Welcome to the Next Picture Show, a movie of the

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Speaker 7: Week podcast devoted to a classic film and how it

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Speaker 7: shaped our thoughts on a recent release. I'm Keith Phipps

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Speaker 7: here with Tasha Robinson.

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Speaker 6: And Scott Tobias.

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Speaker 7: Behind the boards is Genevieve Cooski, who's scared of clowns.

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Speaker 7: Here on the Next Picture Show. We believe that no

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Speaker 7: film exists in a vacuum, and that all culture is

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Speaker 7: more interesting in context. So every other week we get

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Speaker 7: together to talk over a classic film and consider how

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Speaker 7: it relates to a current movie. This week, we're Walking

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Speaker 7: the Rails with a pair of coming of age movies

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Speaker 7: adapted from works by Stephen King. One follows four childhood

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Speaker 7: friends as a set off in search of a dead

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Speaker 7: body as a summer of nineteen fifty nine drawsto clothes.

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Speaker 7: The other features a different group of kids doing their

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Speaker 7: best not to fall victim to an evil clown Tasha.

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Speaker 7: If you're not too busy serving a Superman Mighty Mouse

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Speaker 7: matchup or being menaced by Harlequins, can you describe these movies?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I am pretty busy being menaced by Harlequins

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Speaker 3: right now.

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Speaker 7: But it's time consuming, right It does take a.

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Speaker 3: Lot of well, all of the floating takes a lot

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Speaker 3: of time. I'm just going to float up here near

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Speaker 3: the ceiling and explain these movies. I'm going to try

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Speaker 3: to do that without ineptly trying out obscenities to prove

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Speaker 3: that I'm not a kid anymore. So first we're going

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Speaker 3: to talk about stand by Me, Rob Briner's nineteen eighty

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Speaker 3: six adaptation of King's novella The Body from the Different

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Speaker 3: Seasons collection. It's set in nineteen fifties Oregon, and it

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Speaker 3: has a simple premise. Four boys go off in search

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Speaker 3: of a corpse they've heard is somewhere deep in the woods,

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Speaker 3: miles from their small town. But this isn't a mundane

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Speaker 3: walk in the woods. Stand By Me stars Will Wheaton,

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Speaker 3: River Phoenix, Jerry O'Connell, and Corey Feldman in their pre

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Speaker 3: adolescent days, and it's about the moment when the sun

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Speaker 3: starts to set on the endless summers of childhood. We're

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Speaker 3: pairing the film with it the first half of the

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Speaker 3: long in the Works adaptation of King's massive nineteen eighty

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Speaker 3: six bestseller, which similarly focuses on the moment when childhood ends.

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Speaker 3: When stand By Me hit theaters, it captured a side

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Speaker 3: of King that most moviegoers hadn't seen before, where he

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Speaker 3: broke with the horror genre that made him famous. The

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Speaker 3: novel It, on the other hand, is a kind of

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Speaker 3: magnum opus of King and horror. Its plot is driven

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Speaker 3: by a monster to end all monsters, a creature literally

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Speaker 3: powered by fear itself.

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Speaker 7: But it has a lot in common with stand By

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Speaker 7: Me once you get beneath the surface. Both are filled

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Speaker 7: with kids discovering the realities of death in a world

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Speaker 7: where grown ups rarely, if ever, had their best interests

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Speaker 7: in mind, and both find a lot of darkness beneath

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Speaker 7: their nostalgic surfaces. In this episode will focus on stand

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Speaker 7: By Me, It's treatment of childhood and memory and how

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Speaker 7: it fits into the tradition of King adaptations. Then on

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Speaker 7: the next episode will consider director Andy Muschietti's attempt to

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Speaker 7: bring it to the screen for now, pack your rucksacks

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Speaker 7: and head down the train tracks with us for a

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Speaker 7: trip back to the nineteen fifties by way of the

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Speaker 7: nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 8: In all our lives, there's a full from innocence, a

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Speaker 8: time after which we are never the same. It happened

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Speaker 8: in the summer of nineteen fi fifty nine, a long

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Speaker 8: time ago.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, where do you hear this?

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Speaker 6: Wait?

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Speaker 8: Do you hear this?

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Speaker 3: What you guys want to go? See a dead body?

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Speaker 5: When the night has come.

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Speaker 8: And the land is We interrupt to bring you an

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Speaker 8: update on the search for the missing twelve year old

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Speaker 8: rate Brower.

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Speaker 7: Kid's gone.

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Speaker 8: They're never gonna find him now where they're looking.

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Speaker 3: And the moon is the only night will see.

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Speaker 4: Is that mighty Moska beat up Superman?

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Speaker 8: Money Mouse is a cartoon. Superman is a real guy.

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Speaker 6: The way a cartoon could.

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Speaker 8: Beat up a real guy.

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Speaker 6: Bomby, Oh.

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Speaker 8: Bob.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna be famous. We're gonna be on every radio

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Speaker 3: TV show in the country.

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Speaker 8: I still don't think we should go. I can only

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Speaker 8: have one food for the rest of my life. That's

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Speaker 8: easy pest, surey flavor, pest, no question about it.

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Speaker 9: We can go some place nobody los me.

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Speaker 4: We found and we got dips.

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Speaker 8: We better start running, eyeball, they got damns, the four

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Speaker 8: of us. Eyeball. You just make your move.

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Speaker 2: Here's dead.

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Speaker 7: For some, it's the last real taste of innocence.

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Speaker 6: You're never gonna get out of this town out you

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Speaker 6: can do anything you want, and.

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Speaker 8: The first real taste of life.

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Speaker 2: This is really a good time, I must blast.

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Speaker 8: But for everyone it's the time that memories are made

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Speaker 8: of them.

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Speaker 7: There's no way to travel through time, but music comes close,

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Speaker 7: and so when Rob Bryner wanted to evoke the era

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Speaker 7: of his film setting, he changed the title of Stephen

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Speaker 7: King's The Body to stand by Me, after the immortal

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Speaker 7: Benny King hit that plays over the closing credits. I

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Speaker 7: mean is a little off. The film is set in

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Speaker 7: nineteen fifty nine, and the song wasn't released until two

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Speaker 7: years later, But what's the year or two when you've

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Speaker 7: land onder perfect encapsulation of your movie's themes. Songs are

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Speaker 7: woven into the fabric of stand By Me, from the

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Speaker 7: have Goune Will Travel theme to the Cordett's Lollipop, which

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Speaker 7: the film's protagonists sing to pass the time along the

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Speaker 7: way it's no accident that music plays such a central

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Speaker 7: role in this film, and it's simpatico. Movies like American

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Speaker 7: Graffiti and Dazed and Confused movies that try to capture

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Speaker 7: what it was like to be young and alive at

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Speaker 7: a particular time and place, and it's no accident that

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Speaker 7: they tend to be made by creators whose own younger

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Speaker 7: years aligned with the moment in which they're set, as

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Speaker 7: if they're trying to preserve forever a moment of their youth.

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Speaker 7: The ones that last also have a way of finding

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Speaker 7: the universal in their coming of age stories, and that's

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Speaker 7: no doubt a part of why we're still talking about

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Speaker 7: stand By Me over thirty one years later. It's deft

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Speaker 7: at recreating the world of boys in the year in

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Speaker 7: nineteen fifty nine, but also in capturing the way boys

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Speaker 7: edging the adolescents talk to each other in any time,

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Speaker 7: keeping good natured abuse, testing out profanity, digging into the

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Speaker 7: minutia pop culture, and indulging in the forbidden previous of

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Speaker 7: adulthood to come, whether it's through lurate pulp fiction or

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Speaker 7: stolen cigarettes. But for all the high spirits of the

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Speaker 7: Boy's Adventure, director Rob brighter never forgets that stand by

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Speaker 7: Me is also a journey toward death, a search for

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Speaker 7: a dead body that doubles is recognition of the boy's

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Speaker 7: own mortality. Gordy played by Will Wheaton, is still figuring

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Speaker 7: out how to live in a family haunted by the

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Speaker 7: death of his brother. A framing device reveals from the

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Speaker 7: start the fate of his best friend, Chris, played with

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Speaker 7: disarming sensitivity by River Phoenix. Beyond that, every character grapples

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Speaker 7: with neglect or abuse of parents and other adults who

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Speaker 7: let them down. In one of the most famous scenes,

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Speaker 7: the boys have to race across a train trestle. If

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Speaker 7: they stop moving or step wrong, they'll die, and that's

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Speaker 7: the trade off at the heart of the film. Part

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Speaker 7: of journeying away from childhood is recognizing that sometimes when

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Speaker 7: you fall, there's nothing to catch you and only rocks

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Speaker 7: and rushing water below.

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Speaker 3: You get a flip or not.

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Speaker 4: Come on, Verne, we don't have all day.

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Speaker 7: You lose Gordy. Gorny loves Oh, Gordy just screwed the food.

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Speaker 6: Gordy, go get the provisions, you morphed.

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Speaker 3: I don't call.

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Speaker 8: Me any of your mother's pitny.

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Speaker 5: We're the wet end you are legit shut up. I

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Speaker 5: don't shut it up. I grow up and when.

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Speaker 3: I look at you, I throw up.

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Speaker 8: And then your mother goes around the corner.

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Speaker 3: And she licks it up.

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Speaker 7: Oh so, Scott, Tasha, how did you enjoy revisiting and

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Speaker 7: stand by me?

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Speaker 6: I mostly enjoyed revisiting it with with some reservations. It

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Speaker 6: was a film that I saw as a teenager and

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Speaker 6: like quite a bit and revisited many times back then.

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Speaker 6: Profanity certainly played a role in that. You know it

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Speaker 6: certainly as a boy connecting with other boys, I was

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Speaker 6: into the film. I mean as an adult, I can

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Speaker 6: see some of the flaws in the film, particularly the

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Speaker 6: framing device, and I think the film could stand to

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Speaker 6: be a little harder edged when it kind of goes

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Speaker 6: a little bit more towards the sentimental side. Overall, I

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Speaker 6: feel like it's just a little bit buffed out, but

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Speaker 6: not entirely, and you know, the essence of the material

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Speaker 6: certainly comes through in a powerful way. Hi.

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Speaker 3: When I first saw this film when I was a teenager,

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Speaker 3: I really disliked it. And I think it's because of

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Speaker 3: that phenomenon whereby younger people are often interested in seeing

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Speaker 3: movies about people who are a little older than themselves.

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Speaker 3: So for me, like this is kids stuff. You know,

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Speaker 3: there's a bunch of kids behaving like stupid kids. So

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Speaker 3: it wasn't really a film for a teenager. Revisiting it

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Speaker 3: as an adult, I don't love this movie still to

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Speaker 3: this day. It's I think it's very natively sentimental. I

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Speaker 3: think Stephen King has a very sentimental streak, and that

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Speaker 3: Reiner kind of pulls it out and emphasizes it pretty

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Speaker 3: hard here. But I appreciate it a lot more than

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Speaker 3: I did as an adolescent, in part because it's such

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Speaker 3: a time capsule, in part of Reiner's directing, but mostly

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Speaker 3: just like the four central kids, these are all people

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Speaker 3: who went on to have, you know, pretty big impact

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Speaker 3: on movies, on television, on pop culture in general, and

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Speaker 3: seeing them all is a little boys hanging out with

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Speaker 3: each other and making some very particular King dialogue actually

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Speaker 3: sound believable. It's just a lot of fun.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I like it too. I actually don't only see

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Speaker 7: it once before, and that was at thirty years ago,

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Speaker 7: and you know, I think I probably felt about the

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Speaker 7: same way then as I do now, which is this

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Speaker 7: is a good movie and I think it is sent

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Speaker 7: a mentality that kind of kind of pulls it back,

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Speaker 7: and we'll probably get into how it fits into King's

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Speaker 7: adaptations and how it relates to the original a little

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Speaker 7: bit more. But having just read the novella which it's braced,

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Speaker 7: which I hadn't read before, I always think I've read

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Speaker 7: a lot of Stephen King, and I realized there's a

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Speaker 7: lot of Stephen King I haven't read because there's so

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Speaker 7: much of it. And I think you're right. I think

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Speaker 7: there's a few more edges in that story that aren't

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Speaker 7: in the book, aren't in the film rather, you know,

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Speaker 7: in terms of coming up of age stories goes, I

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Speaker 7: think it gets a lot right. I think the dialogue

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Speaker 7: isn't always naturalistic, but there's phrases in here that I

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Speaker 7: don't know if they feel right because they're drawing like

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Speaker 7: from that universal like profanity, layden lingua franca, young teenage boys,

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Speaker 7: or if the people I went to junior high school

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Speaker 7: with were imitating this film or like it just like

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Speaker 7: it's such a feedback loop, but it feels like the

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Speaker 7: right choice. I mean, it's known for its dialogue. That's

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Speaker 7: probably why it earned it's our rating. How did the

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Speaker 7: dialogue play for you this time around?

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Speaker 3: The little bits and pieces of it that do sound forced,

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Speaker 3: But I am just one of the things that's most

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Speaker 3: distinctive about kings writing is the way he makes up words.

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Speaker 3: He makes up phrases, tries to make up like languages

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Speaker 3: among his characters. That's it's just a very distinctive thing.

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Speaker 3: And when it works, it kind of creates a like

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Speaker 3: a little insular world, and when it doesn't work, you

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Speaker 3: just find yourself tripping over and over over, like the

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Speaker 3: made up words. Rereading the novella, there were definitely places

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Speaker 3: that I tripped. But I was actually really surprised at

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Speaker 3: how well the kids pull off some of this dialogue.

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Speaker 3: And I kind of credit like Ryaner apparently kind of

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Speaker 3: got them all to come for summer and hang out

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Speaker 3: together and form a relationship so they would play together

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Speaker 3: and act together naturally like kids, And I think that

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Speaker 3: that really paid off here. Man. Some of the behind

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Speaker 3: the scenes stories on this movie, in terms of what

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Speaker 3: he did to these kids to get these performances, are

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Speaker 3: horrifying and fascinating.

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Speaker 7: One of the making of talk about making them cry,

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Speaker 7: oh yeah, because they weren't upset enough when they're running

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Speaker 7: from the train.

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Speaker 3: So he yeah, he threatened to kill them because the

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Speaker 3: He's like, the train itself is just a bunch of

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Speaker 3: guys like pushing a like a gimbled thing along the track.

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Speaker 3: And he's like, you see those boys, they are tired

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Speaker 3: of pushing that thing, and it's because of you. If

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Speaker 3: they don't kill you, I'm going to kill you. It's

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Speaker 3: just like freaking the.

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Speaker 7: Kids, no matter fact about that too. And like it's

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Speaker 7: Rob Ryner. He's like a big colledge teddy bear of

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Speaker 7: a guy. But it's like that's so cool there.

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Speaker 3: Rob, right, Well yeah, I mean he says it the

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Speaker 3: way an animal trainer might say, Okay, this is really funny.

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Speaker 3: When this dog is looking at this guy with love,

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Speaker 3: it's because I'm holding a rasher of bacon over his head.

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Speaker 6: Sure that's how I tricked this Martin or Archie Bunker.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I guess. So that's good.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like the a lot of the emotion feels

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Speaker 3: pretty real, but you are you're asking about the dialogue,

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Speaker 3: like you can't scare kids into calling each other wet

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Speaker 3: ends or whatever. You know, weird language they're using sound natural.

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Speaker 3: That's just I don't know if that came with practice,

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Speaker 3: or he just basically said, you know, all of these

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Speaker 3: things are just ways of saying screw you. Just just

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Speaker 3: put that emphasis into it.

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Speaker 6: I like the dialogue, and I particularly like the profanity.

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Speaker 6: I think it makes a lot of sense as far

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Speaker 6: as just kids pushing boundaries and doing things that are

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Speaker 6: more adult than they actually are, smoking cigarettes, swearing, playing cards,

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Speaker 6: trying to grow up fast. I mean, even this impetus

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Speaker 6: to go out and search for this body, as you know,

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Speaker 6: an aggressive play toward moving past the stage in their life.

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Speaker 6: It's like they're dictating their own coming of age story

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Speaker 6: by going on this adventure. So that made a whole

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Speaker 6: lot of sense to me. One of the things that

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Speaker 6: kind of sort of stood out for me this time

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Speaker 6: was linked in a way to memories of my father

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Speaker 6: and in his childhood and the way he describes it

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Speaker 6: and how kids of that age were just given an

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Speaker 6: incredible amount of latitude to just go often do whatever

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Speaker 6: the hell they wanted, you know. Whereas now Keith and

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Speaker 6: I are both parents and I think are a little

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Speaker 6: I mean, their our kids are quite young, but there

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Speaker 6: was no just no scenario in which our kids would

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Speaker 6: ever be in this kind.

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Speaker 7: Of picture of a future in which my kid is

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Speaker 7: wandering around Chicago on her.

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Speaker 6: Own right in two days, and my father, my father

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Speaker 6: and his brother they used to actually make bombs. They

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Speaker 6: were making bombs, and they were they were they were

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Speaker 6: jumping around, you know, into in old factories and around

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Speaker 6: electrical wire. I mean, like white father said, he could

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Speaker 6: have been killed a million different ways as a boy.

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Speaker 6: But at the same time, it is also up to

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Speaker 6: them to learn about the world on their own, you know,

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Speaker 6: and discover things that you know, their parents, I guess

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Speaker 6: in this case are too neglectful to reveal to them themselves.

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Speaker 3: To be fair, you guys are both parents in both

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Speaker 3: a different era, which you know you're discussing, but also

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Speaker 3: in a city sure where the prospect of your kids

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Speaker 3: going off and like camping in the woods together for

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Speaker 3: a couple of nights is not really a thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, the sense of threat here is bigger, but

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Speaker 3: it's also it's just a completely different culture. I mean,

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Speaker 3: even when I was a kid, I remember my family

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Speaker 3: mostly lived in Oklahoma, and it was pretty common for

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Speaker 3: us to just take off in the morning and go

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Speaker 3: wandering around on our own, go down to the local park,

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Speaker 3: run around in the local culverts and just like go

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Speaker 3: ranging around wherever we wanted to go. And it never

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Speaker 3: occurred to anybody that we needed like an adult with

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Speaker 3: us there at all times. We didn't build any explosives, So.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, take it to another level. I also had a

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Speaker 6: bunch of more liberated childhood, But enough about our childhoods.

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Speaker 6: I just think it's an interesting, sort of standout element

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Speaker 6: of the film. These kids left to make discoveries on

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Speaker 6: their own, to make mistakes, to act beyond their years,

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Speaker 6: and then be punished in a way for doing that.

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Speaker 6: To actually get to the point where they're confronting not

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Speaker 6: just the body, but other truths about their lives and

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Speaker 6: about life in general that are startling and maybe too

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Speaker 6: advanced for them at this point in their life.

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Speaker 3: The ones that they face that aren't too advanced for

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Speaker 3: them in their life, like the myth of the junkyard

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Speaker 3: dog that's been built up among local kids, and then

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Speaker 3: when they see what the what that myth actually comes

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Speaker 3: out to, it's a very different thing. But yeah, they're

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Speaker 3: I mean, they're facing different aspects of morality and family

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Speaker 3: and the danger of their own bodies. With the leeches

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Speaker 3: and with how other people see them, Like the whole

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Speaker 3: sequence with the man who runs the junkyard kind of

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Speaker 3: coming to terms with, you know, not just the fact

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Speaker 3: that Teddy's father has been institutionalized with presumably PTSD, but

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Speaker 3: the fact that everybody knows about it and potentially in

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Speaker 3: a small town, has an attitude about it. Like that's

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Speaker 3: a lot of fairly heady stuff for a bunch of

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Speaker 3: kids to be coming to terms with, even before they

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Speaker 3: have to confront you know, big kids danger and literal death.

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Speaker 7: As is also the notion that adults don't have their back,

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Speaker 7: Adults will let them down, adults will forget about them,

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Speaker 7: they don't have their best interest in mind. Chris has

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Speaker 7: that story about just being betrayed when he tries to

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Speaker 7: do the right thing by returning the milk money and

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Speaker 7: someone who sees him not as a kid seeking forgiveness

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Speaker 7: but as another person that they can take advantage of.

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Speaker 7: That's a pretty disheartening truth to face at any rage,

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Speaker 7: but especially when when you're not quite done with childhood yet.

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Speaker 3: There's a really interesting sequence in the novella where when

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Speaker 3: Gordy goes off by himself and buys the Hamburger for

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Speaker 3: the kind of picnic that they have. The man who's

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Speaker 3: running the store tries to cheat him by putting his

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Speaker 3: thumbs on the scale, by deliberately miscalculating what he owes,

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Speaker 3: and he has a big confrontation with him. In the

396
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Speaker 3: movie version, the store clerks attempts to cheat him. Aren't there,

397
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Speaker 3: But instead there's just this very sad scene where the

398
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Speaker 3: guy is talking about his older brother who died, and

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Speaker 3: you just you get a sense of, even for somebody

400
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Speaker 3: who's trying to be kind, who's trying to reach out,

401
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,280
Speaker 3: there's just an incredible gulf there between the inner life

402
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Speaker 3: of a child and any attempt by an adult to communicate.

403
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Speaker 6: Well, it's a sore spot too. I mean, I think

404
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 6: you obviously getting impression from his parents that the wrong

405
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,960
Speaker 6: had died, and since the kid happened to be this

406
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Speaker 6: incredible football player, the rest of the community feels like

407
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,040
Speaker 6: there's a pretty substantial loss. And of course the clerk

408
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,720
Speaker 6: questions him about whether he plays football and if he's

409
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Speaker 6: any good at it, you know, and of course he's not.

410
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Speaker 6: He does this is not that's not who he is.

411
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Speaker 6: He writes stories.

412
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Speaker 7: You just like him, And when ever tell you that

413
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Speaker 7: that kind of thing yeah stuff. Reiner has said that

414
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Speaker 7: he cast kids who are kind of close to their

415
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Speaker 7: characters because with kids that age, you can't push him

416
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Speaker 7: too far away from where they are. What do you

417
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Speaker 7: think of these performances and do they work for you?

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Speaker 3: I mean, Corey Feldman kind of coming across as a

419
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Speaker 3: spastic dork is so perfect, and he's played variations on

420
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Speaker 3: this character, the kind of over eager, more or less

421
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Speaker 3: eager to please, but sometimes like a little too edgy

422
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Speaker 3: and a little too angry kid. We've seen him in

423
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Speaker 3: this role multiple times and it just you know, this

424
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Speaker 3: is this is the tiny, young duckling version of it,

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Speaker 3: and it's kind of heartbreaking and beautiful.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, He's he's really good and I can't River Phoenix

427
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 6: is just unbelievable in this movie. I just I could

428
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Speaker 6: not get over that performance. And I think it's just

429
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Speaker 6: it's so natural. And it's funny that you mentioned that

430
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Speaker 6: Reyner cast actors close to their characters, because it just

431
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Speaker 6: it seems like there's absolutely no border that's being crossed

432
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Speaker 6: between or Phoenix. Just natural sensitivity and empathy and just

433
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Speaker 6: and consciousness, yeah, and precociousness and the character he's playing,

434
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Speaker 6: it's all right there. It's everything is just so on

435
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Speaker 6: the surface with that performance, it just completely blew me away,

436
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,439
Speaker 6: and it connects so much with all of you know,

437
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 6: Phoenix's performances to come and you know, Running on Empty

438
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 6: and My Own Private Idaho and these sorts of films.

439
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,160
Speaker 6: It's just he's he was one of those James Dean

440
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 6: like actors who just didn't hide anything, and everything was

441
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 6: right on the surface and authentic and beautiful.

442
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 7: It's nicely done too, because you get those moments where

443
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,040
Speaker 7: he's a part and you realize he's kind of wise

444
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,160
Speaker 7: beyond his years, but he's never plays his wise beyond

445
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,679
Speaker 7: his years like he's a kid, and like, you know,

446
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,959
Speaker 7: when the other kids are taunting Gordy, he joins him

447
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 7: taunting them too. It's like it feels right. It feels

448
00:20:58,240 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 7: like this is someone who's going to choose his moment

449
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,440
Speaker 7: to be that sensitive in that open but that's who

450
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 7: he is.

451
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're all maybe a little too self aware him

452
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,560
Speaker 3: most of all, I think, in terms of laying out

453
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 3: some of the themes of the movie in explanatory form,

454
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 3: But you're exactly right, like the fact that he's old

455
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 3: and wise beyond his years to a somewhat suspicious and

456
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,679
Speaker 3: cinematic degree, doesn't keep him from like piling on the

457
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 3: other kids when you know that's what we're doing right now.

458
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 7: I think we all are really good too.

459
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 3: Man Wheton's performance is just kind of this just like

460
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,680
Speaker 3: a little too smart for his own good kid who

461
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,439
Speaker 3: lives a little too much in his own head, but

462
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 3: is authentically like delighted when he's included. It just again,

463
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 3: it feels like really close to kind of what we

464
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 3: know about him as a human being in the world.

465
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 3: You know, he's become such a pop culture fixture, and

466
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 3: he's so expressive about like his life and his experience.

467
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 3: You get a sense that you know what his personality

468
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 3: is and you really see it on the screen here.

469
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,439
Speaker 6: Yeah, And of course then you put all four of

470
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 6: them together and they're dynamic as a quartet and then

471
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 6: broken down individually. All that makes sense and it's kind

472
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 6: of ritually drawn. I think that just closeness between Will

473
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 6: Wheaton's character and or Phoenix's character, and you know a

474
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 6: lot of the razzing that goes on involving Jerry O'Connell

475
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 6: and it feels like I lived in dynamic. I guess

476
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 6: between all of these boys, and it makes sense they're friends,

477
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 6: even though they on paper they don't make entirely a

478
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 6: lot of sense together some of them. You know, it

479
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 6: doesn't make sense that they would necessarily be friends with

480
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 6: Jerry O'Connell or you know, or if Feldman's character is

481
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 6: perhaps too spastic or deranged or unstable, he's a difficult

482
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 6: kid to be friends with.

483
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 3: I mean, again, you got to take the small town

484
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 3: dynamic into effect. It just a fact. I mean, these

485
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 3: may be the only kids of that exact age who

486
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 3: happen to hang out at the treehouse and like to

487
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 3: play cards. That's kind of It's underlined a bit in

488
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 3: the novella. I think that there are a lot more

489
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 3: kids that are sort of like satellites to that dynamic,

490
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 3: that hang out in the treehouse that just happened to

491
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,680
Speaker 3: be like the group that was in the treehouse when

492
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 3: Vern showed up with the news about the corpse. So

493
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 3: it's not necessarily that these four kids are the best

494
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 3: friends ever. It's that these are the kids who are

495
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 3: around to take on his adventure.

496
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 7: I mentioned other people being out of town, like other

497
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 7: regular treehouse regular as being on vacation. Yeah, both the

498
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 7: film and the novella are smart about showing these these

499
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 7: aren't friendships. They are necessarily built the last, and the

500
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 7: boys drift apart. Some of them do.

501
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 6: Yeah.

502
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 9: As time went on, we saw less and less of

503
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 9: Teddy and her, until eventually they became just two more

504
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 9: faces in the halls.

505
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 6: It happens.

506
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 9: Sometimes friends come in and out of your life, like

507
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 9: bus boys in a restaurant. I heard that Vern got

508
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 9: married out of high school, had four kids, and is

509
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 9: now the forklift operator at the Arsenal Lumberyard. Teddy tried

510
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 9: several times to get into the army, but his eyes

511
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 9: and his ear kept him out. Last I'd heard he'd

512
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 9: spend some time in jail and was now doing odd

513
00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 9: jobs around Castle Rock.

514
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 7: We're old, but we're not We're not baby boomers. We

515
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 7: didn't live through this. Does this feel like an accurate

516
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 7: depiction of the time, do you know?

517
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: I get the sense of the time less with these kids,

518
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 3: although they're they're like ubiquitous smoking thing does feel very fifties.

519
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 3: The idea that you're now suddenly a man if you

520
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 3: get a pack of cigarettes like rolled up in your

521
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 3: white T shirt sleeve. That feels very fifties. I get

522
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 3: much more of a sense of the fifties from Ace

523
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 3: Merrill and his gang. They're carvings, Yeah, they're griefs are

524
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 3: so they carve the idiot tattoos into each other's shoulders.

525
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 3: They sit around messing with carburettors. Then they they drag

526
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 3: Race with the tops down. They feel like, well, very

527
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 3: very Kingyan, very cliched, you know, drag Race and two

528
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: bet hoodlums, as Jordi calls them.

529
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 6: King just loves this era.

530
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, I know.

531
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 6: And then the music really helps to bring it to

532
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 6: life as well, the music in the cars and the wardrobe.

533
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 6: I mean, it definitely feels like, you know, Stephen King's

534
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 6: fifties come to life. So in that sense, Rhiner is

535
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 6: right in line with the way King tends to think

536
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 6: about the era, which is mostly nostalgic, but then also

537
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 6: colored a little bit by darkness and violence and neglect

538
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 6: and things under the surface that are not so great.

539
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 7: One of the more memorable additions to the movie is

540
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 7: the supermanbers is Mighty Mouse and other like pop culture

541
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 7: arguments that they have. It's interesting too because I know

542
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 7: not the first to put this out, but watching this again,

543
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 7: it's like, wait, this is Reservoir Dogs before Before Reservoir

544
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 7: Dogs is kind of a very Tarantinos conversation and.

545
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 3: Slightly less profane than that opening Tarantino Reservoir Dogs, very

546
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 3: much in the same spirit. Yeah, No, that's a good point,

547
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,719
Speaker 3: and that conversation, as silly as it is, with just

548
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 3: that ultra serious Wow, that's weird. What is goofy? That

549
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 3: to some degree feels more authentic to the kid experience,

550
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 3: that sense of like taking pop culture analysis super seriously,

551
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 3: which of course is adults is not something we do

552
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 3: at all, ever, very but taking it seriously while you're

553
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 3: making up your own rules. I guess the Mighty Mass

554
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,239
Speaker 3: versus Superman thing in particular, just the no, duh, one

555
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 3: of them is a cartoon and one of them's real.

556
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 3: That argument even with a kid, if you ask, I mean,

557
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 3: is he a real, real person? Like no, obviously he's

558
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 3: a story. But that's just it's like a knee jerk

559
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,479
Speaker 3: reaction based in sort of unspoken rules of childhood and

560
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 3: just a childhood understanding of the seriousness and importance of

561
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 3: pop culture. I really liked that conversation.

562
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, and some of the stuff like the boys around

563
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 6: the Campfire, you know, not quite asleep talking about cherry Peys,

564
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 6: and this sort of thing reminded me so much of

565
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 6: my own youth. And you know, whenever I had whatever

566
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 6: sleepovers or something other sleepovers for boys they call them sleepovers. Sure, yeah,

567
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 6: those are the kind of silly conversations you would have

568
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 6: until you fall asleep at three in the morning. You

569
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 6: just ask dumb questions. And that seemed like the right

570
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 6: kind of a dumb question to consider.

571
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 3: As far as it being really authentically fifties in any way, though,

572
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 3: I think you could transpose this pretty seamlessly to the eighties.

573
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 3: You'd probably have like less smoking, and the kids would

574
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 3: dress differently. But I think Stranger Things showed us pretty

575
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 3: clearly that this same dynamic in terms of like a

576
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: group of tight knit kids who have certain pop culture

577
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 3: fascinations in common, who like hang out together, and who

578
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: live in a world that's kind of bordered by adults

579
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: but not particularly linked with adults. Like, all of this

580
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 3: works pretty well in a different era, just some of

581
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 3: the signifiers. The music would be different and a few

582
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 3: other things. And I mean, I think the fact that

583
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 3: Muschetti's version of it, the childhood phase has been moved

584
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: from the fifties to the eighties. I think we're going

585
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 3: to see again that you know, it moves fine, like

586
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 3: King's obsession is with the nineteen fifties because that's where

587
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 3: his childhood was. But I don't think that there's so

588
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 3: much here that couldn't be moved to another era.

589
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 6: No. I mean, I guess you have to set a

590
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 6: movie at some point in time, though I will say,

591
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 6: I mean this was made in the mid eighties, and

592
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 6: so I think nostalgia and in the past certainly play

593
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 6: an important role. So you really do have to set

594
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 6: it back then.

595
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 7: I think I've said it now. The kids are gonna

596
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 7: look for a dead body and Minecraft or something.

597
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 6: I don't know.

598
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 3: I don't think that that's true, though. I think there's

599
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 3: a certain age at which, like something real, something in

600
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 3: the real world does have an impact. That is, you're

601
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 3: very conscious of the fact that that's different from you know,

602
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 3: stuff that you see in magazines, stuff that you see

603
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 3: on TV, stuff that you see on the internet, stuff

604
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 3: that you see on video games. These kids might have

605
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 3: to be a little younger to be at that point,

606
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 3: because here they're just so visibly right on the edge

607
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 3: of pubescence that v Phoenix. Apparently they hit adolescents during

608
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 3: the course of the movie and like shot up like

609
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 3: eight inches between the shooting of like some scenes and

610
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 3: other scenes, and you can, if you're really watching for it,

611
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 3: you can tell they might have to be a little

612
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 3: younger in the eighties. But then again, I don't know

613
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 3: that they would.

614
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 7: So this is Rob Reiner's third film after this is

615
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 7: Spinal Tap and The sure Thing. Does any of them

616
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 7: makes it like a particularly a Rob Reiner film to you?

617
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 6: It almost does. If you add in the rest of

618
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 6: his career, then you can see certain things stand out.

619
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,479
Speaker 6: I can't really see a huge amount of connection between

620
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 6: The Sure Thing and Spinal Tap in this movie, but

621
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 6: I can certainly you can certainly see the connections between

622
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 6: it and The Princess Bride or It and these there's

623
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 6: run of family films that he's made recently, and just

624
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 6: that introduction of sentiment, pure sentiment, I mean that that's

625
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 6: become a major part of his films that was not

626
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 6: present really all that certainly not this is Spinal Tap,

627
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 6: but you know, really just barely in The Sure Thing,

628
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 6: And so this this kind of feels like the first

629
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 6: movie by the Rob briin that we would come to

630
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 6: know now sort of.

631
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 7: I mean, I mean, When Harry met Sally is a

632
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 7: different sort of film, and Misery is a much different

633
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 7: sort of film, And there's some and if you get

634
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 7: mad misery.

635
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 6: I mean misery also kind of like takes the rough

636
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 6: edges off a little bit. You know, that ankle or

637
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 6: whatever was supposed to be gone. That was as of capitation.

638
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 3: I don't think you can call it a decapitation when

639
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 3: you cut off somebody. Yeah, but yeah, well caputation only hoods.

640
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, you can't decapitate a foot, Scott.

641
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 3: Even if you could decapitate a foot, I mean your

642
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 3: your point is uh, well it off. Yeah, you know,

643
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 3: your your point is appropriate. Although that might have just

644
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 3: been a budgetary thing, I think.

645
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 6: It's deliberate decision. Yeah, A little research on that. Oh nice, impressive.

646
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 6: I accidentally did a little research for a piece I

647
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 6: wrote over the Washington Post.

648
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 7: So I would say he's I think after it's matter

649
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 7: to him, I mean, coming coming from acting in that

650
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 7: Crownd and I feel like that's kind of kind of

651
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 7: tried to run through all the rob Rider films I've seen,

652
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 7: and they feel like, you know, let's find these characters

653
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 7: let's rehearse this, let's work this out together.

654
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: Let's let's torture these kids.

655
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 7: Torture, always torturing kids.

656
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: Yes, I wonder if he tortured like Billy Crystal nearly

657
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 3: as much as he to kids.

658
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 7: He made a run in front of a train, just

659
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 7: because I do think that there is.

660
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 3: A pretty mawkish broadness that runs through a lot of

661
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 3: his films, including Harry Mett Sally and like Princess Bride,

662
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 3: is actively making fun of a certain kind of sentimentality,

663
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 3: fantasy sentimentality, and the humor of it is a lot

664
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 3: of fun, but it is It's a broad movie by design.

665
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 3: But the framing segments are pretty cheesy in a way,

666
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 3: and I think they're effectively cheesy because of the type

667
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 3: of story it is. But then when you look at

668
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 3: Harry Mett Sally, when you look at I think even

669
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 3: the sure thing to some degree, I think there's just

670
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 3: a certain broadness of character in particular and of the

671
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 3: kind of storytelling that to some degree was like endemic

672
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: to eighties movies, but just feels very Rob Reiner to me.

673
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 7: At this point, I have a very particular question for

674
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 7: you about the end of this film. I think our

675
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 7: perception of the end of this film might have changed

676
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 7: over time, because when I remember seeing this film in

677
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 7: the eighties, he writes, he's writing all this down as

678
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 7: a story, right, And then you know, it gets final line,

679
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 7: which I think is actually pretty good if you're not

680
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 7: thinking about who you're hanging out with when you were twelve.

681
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 7: When you watch the end of that movie, I don't,

682
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 7: I don't know who you are. And he turns the

683
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 7: computer off, and now I think, I just, you know whatever,

684
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 7: I turned my computer off. But then I think it

685
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 7: was supposed to be him erasing all this right, huh am,

686
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 7: I am I wrong about that? That's certainly how I

687
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 7: perceived it.

688
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 3: Then I had not taken that into account, to be honest, though,

689
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 3: I would really without Reiner saying something about it, I

690
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: would hesitate to read too much into it, because pretty

691
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 3: much everything involved in computers and movies is inaccurate.

692
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 7: It's true, all.

693
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, I never I'd never thought about it that way.

694
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 6: I just thought I thought it was like just that

695
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 6: kind of meta thing of an a of an author

696
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 6: revealing to us that this is his story.

697
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 7: If I want to dig deep into the memory, well,

698
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 7: I think there's even a joke about that in the

699
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 7: Mad magazine parody of this.

700
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 6: But I cannot guarantee that there is actually because you

701
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 6: are always right when you when you say, when you

702
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 6: say things like if I recall, it's pretty much gospel,

703
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 6: and it's definitely there where this.

704
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 3: Also, I mean, there's no way to tell whether he

705
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 3: just saved the thing just before turning the computer. I

706
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 3: like that interpretation enough that I kind of wanted to

707
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 3: be part of the story. But as I say, I'm

708
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 3: not sure that I believe Renner thought that through.

709
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 6: Now, so another draft, why just why delete the thing? Oh?

710
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 3: He just rewrites it every day.

711
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 7: He was too personal for.

712
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 3: Living through this period in his life on a daily basis. Now,

713
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 3: when a Sun says he gets like that when he's writing,

714
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 3: he means he gets like that every day when he

715
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 3: writes down this story.

716
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 7: So I don't think any of us love the framing device.

717
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 6: And I thought the narration, No, it's like it's basically

718
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 6: like the the ultimate freeze frame. He freeze frame record scratch,

719
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 6: that's me in the situation. It definitely is that type

720
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 6: of narration, and it just again it tells when it

721
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 6: should be showing. It's just I'm almost never go for this.

722
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 6: That there's so many movie at are framed like this,

723
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 6: and I never ever liked the framing device, except in

724
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 6: The Princess Bride. He would do the same thing with

725
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 6: The Princess Bride with Peter Falk. Of course that was

726
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 6: Peter Falk. Come. You know, there's a lot of commentary

727
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,959
Speaker 6: on storytelling, and that was a brilliant device that worked

728
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 6: like Gangbusters. But here it was rough, rough, rough to hear.

729
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's rough in part because like if you're gonna

730
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 3: do something like this, okay, first of all without the

731
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 3: voiceover interpolating itself into what starts to feel like a

732
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 3: fairly naturalistic story about a bunch of kids on an adventure,

733
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 3: and then Dreyfus's voice drops in to explain to you

734
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 3: what you've just seen and its relevance. So there's too

735
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 3: much of it, but there's also not enough of it

736
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 3: for it to work at all as part of the story.

737
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 3: And maybe we just needed more of a setup at

738
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 3: the beginning that wasn't just you know, Dreyfus sitting in

739
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 3: his truck glancing at a newspaper, and then the outro

740
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 3: is him sitting at a computer like with these kids

741
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 3: kind of badgering him. You don't really get a sense

742
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 3: for his life at all, like what has become, who

743
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 3: he is, what's important to him, why he's there. He

744
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 3: is just so nakedly a device rather than a character.

745
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 6: Well, I'm going to I will say I will make

746
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 6: one defense of the narration. The moment when he accounts

747
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 6: for Chris's fate and he disappears from the frame, you know,

748
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 6: and he talks about how he intervened and what sort

749
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 6: of adult he became. That was super affecting, And I

750
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 6: don't know how you would do that without the voiceover narration.

751
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't think Dreyfus is the problem. I think

752
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 7: maybe it just could have been used a little more effective,

753
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 7: you know what. I think it would work better without

754
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 7: the opening. I think if you just have the conclusion

755
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 7: I think is not, it's less of a problem.

756
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing, though, you need some sort of

757
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 3: establishing thing, because there are a few moments that just

758
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 3: played differently without the narration, and one of the big

759
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 3: ones is no.

760
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 7: I mean, you could have the narration, but you don't

761
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 7: have that opening where he's like looking at the newspaper

762
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 7: and you see the kids. You know, somebody Chris is

763
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 7: dead and.

764
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 3: You know, but I mean, you need to establish it,

765
00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 3: you need to set it up. You can't just have

766
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 3: him is.

767
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 7: The summer in nineteen fifty nine. I was hanging around

768
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 7: with my three best friends.

769
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 3: That sounds awful too, That just really sounds awf pretty good.

770
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 6: Key.

771
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's to the moment Stephen here, I come.

772
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 6: What was Stephen King's approach to this?

773
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 3: That's what I was gonna say. All right, so Stephen

774
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 3: King's One of the big reasons I think for the

775
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 3: voice over here is to get King's writing more or

776
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 3: less verbatim into the story over and over and over.

777
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 3: And one of the big moments that I think would

778
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 3: play very differently without the voiceover is him trying to

779
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 3: explain the impact of seeing a dead body, because you know,

780
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 3: there's so much lead up. We're gonna go see a corpse,

781
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 3: We're gonna go see it against corpse, and you almost

782
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: think it's not going to happen, because this is an

783
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 3: adventure in the woods and child corpses are not necessarily

784
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 3: a part of the shape of this kind of nostalgic story.

785
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 3: But then when you see it, you know, we see

786
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 3: people die in movies all the time, like, how can

787
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 3: you understand the impact of what that feels like to

788
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 3: a twelve year old and to a twelve year old

789
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty nine, I feel like the voice over

790
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 3: there is in part a necessary to kind of prime

791
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: you for what they're feeling, because they can't talk about it,

792
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 3: they barely understand it themselves. The understanding of the impact

793
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 3: of that moment comes from the adult who is looking

794
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: back and saying, now I have the words to explain

795
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 3: to you how this feels.

796
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 6: But I see I would say again, I don't like

797
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,479
Speaker 6: to tell filmmakers what to do, but I almost feel

798
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 6: like you could convey that through quiet and through reaction

799
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 6: shots and through subtle more subtle techniques and actually coming

800
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 6: out and saying how they're feeling. Plus, right after they

801
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 6: see the body and it's not this cause for elation

802
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 6: or hope for heroism, then they have that confrontation with

803
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 6: with Ace and his boys, and that also gives them

804
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 6: a gives you a sense of how they're feeling because

805
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 6: because of course they're like, nobody's taking this body away.

806
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 6: You're not taking them, We're not going anywhere with this body.

807
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 6: I mean, I feel like that's all in the dialogue

808
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 6: and you don't need anybody explaining why I think, Hey.

809
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 3: I don't know. For me, the ending just plays very awkwardly,

810
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: and you understand that it's about more than the kid,

811
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 3: especially from where it goes. You understand that they're having

812
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 3: an emotional moment around the whole thing. But the whole

813
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 3: idea of we got DIBs, you know, we got DIBs

814
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 3: on this body, as they say, is just such a

815
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 3: strange concept, especially since they weren't the ones that discovered

816
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 3: him in the first place. The fact that you know

817
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 3: there are different factions laying claim to this body as

818
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 3: though it's their property still plays as oddly for me.

819
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 3: No matter how much explanation there is around it, or

820
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 3: how little, how paired down it might be, it's still weird.

821
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 3: And then there's the fact that in the novella, this

822
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 3: confrontation happens in the middle of like a blinding hailstorm,

823
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 3: and it's very very dramatic, and here it plays it's

824
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 3: it's broad daylight, and it seems a lot more casual

825
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 3: to me. It just plays very strangely to me. Broad

826
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 3: daylight is way cheaper than manufacturing a Hailstorm.

827
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 7: So Stephen King, it's called this pretty much the first

828
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 7: adaptation of one of his stories to get it right,

829
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 7: which is remarkable.

830
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 6: Can I name all of the Stephen King adaptations before him?

831
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 6: She got it right almost all of them at that point.

832
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 6: I mean there was Carrie Carry and the Shining and

833
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 6: Kujo Dead Christine and the Dead Zone like that, there

834
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 6: was like all this stuff, all these the best Stephen

835
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 6: King adaptations happened right away, big baby, I think you're right.

836
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 3: Wait, had Maximum Overdrive happened?

837
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 7: I haven't left the same year as Maximum Overdrive?

838
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 3: Like which one of them did better? I mean, that's

839
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 3: kind of a dead right.

840
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 7: I think you're right. But I also think if you're

841
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 7: Stephen King, this actually feels like a direct adaptation of

842
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 7: a Stephen King chronological says, the first one to really

843
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 7: get his authorial voice onto the screen.

844
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 3: So I think that's fair because it's super literal about

845
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 3: putting his words on this crate.

846
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 7: That's true, But also the yeah, and also the and

847
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 7: it's a fairly faithful adaptation with some edges sanded off

848
00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 7: as we say.

849
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 6: San San San more enthused about Christine.

850
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 7: It's been so long since I've seen that.

851
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 3: Good for the first time recently, and it's a fun movie.

852
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 7: It's a surprise first Stephen King book I read, and

853
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 7: my teacher I was, like in fifth grade. My teacher

854
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 7: expressed concern to my parents, I should not be reading

855
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 7: Stephen King at such a young age. Oh, probably right.

856
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 3: I mean, childhood is literally for reading. For those of

857
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 3: the thid read books in childhood, childhood is pretty much

858
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 3: for reading stuff like two years past what you should

859
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 3: quote unquo be reading and having your teacher expressed concern

860
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 3: about it.

861
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 7: That's what it's for. I think I put I think

862
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 7: I put Stephen King on the shelf for like another

863
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 7: year or so and started reading Stephen King again.

864
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 3: But I am a little curious, if you remember it all,

865
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 3: how that played, because Christine in particular is just it's

866
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 3: so much a book about fifties nostalgia and like the

867
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 3: oldish teenager's relationship with a car back then, and I'm

868
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,959
Speaker 3: very curious how it played to like fifth grade Keith.

869
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 7: I remember it was one of a series of you know,

870
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 7: either film or books that that that made me fear

871
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 7: high school is a place where he's gonna get kicked

872
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 7: in the nuts. Solid there's a really graphic description of

873
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 7: being being kicked in the nuts. Yeah, and and there

874
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 7: isn't in the body too, there's a it's a fairly

875
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 7: graphic description of that. So yes, I was afraid of

876
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 7: testical injuries.

877
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, this movie, and it's a It's the scariest part

878
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 3: is it's genital leech. Obviously, that is something that people

879
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 3: remember a lot. Will Whaton got teased for it for decades.

880
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 3: He is possibly being teased for it right now somewhere. Hey,

881
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 3: you're a leech boy. I have no context for how

882
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 3: that plays to a dude.

883
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 7: It's not good, not pleasant.

884
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 3: Scott's making scrunchy face.

885
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 6: I wouldn't want it, Nope, But I meant that spot

886
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 6: for the leech.

887
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 7: But I think there is you know in this film

888
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 7: as well, that there's a very particular kind of grease

889
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 7: or bully that I never actually really encountered that much

890
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 7: in my in real life. But I was fearful, fearful

891
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 7: love before coming into into high school.

892
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

893
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 3: Not growing up in the fifties meant I, like, I

894
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 3: really did not encounter many, very very distinctly fifty style bullies.

895
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 3: And god, they're all over King's work like this particular

896
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 3: that off the top of my head. In Christine in

897
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 3: the Stand in just a bunch of short stories and

898
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 3: needful things, there's one. It's just it's an archetype that

899
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 3: definitely haunts him. And you know here there's a whole

900
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 3: pack of them and the only one that really stands out.

901
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 3: We haven't really talked about Kiefer Sutherland in this movie

902
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 3: at all. He's good speaking of you know, people that

903
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 3: you're seeing their baby faces on he's so young.

904
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, he's really good and scary. He's scary good.

905
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 3: In this he seems like a freaky tough guy.

906
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 7: But it came back to the original question, though, I

907
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 7: would say, you know, in terms of the hierarchy of

908
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 7: king octations, we named some great ones. I think it's

909
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 7: a very good one. Though I think this is top ten.

910
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 6: Yeah maybe so, maybe towards the back part of the

911
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 6: top ten, but yeah, it's it is. I mean, I

912
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 6: don't think we would be discussing it on the show

913
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 6: if it weren't. I mean, we are supposed to be

914
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 6: talking about a classic film and how it's the current movie.

915
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 6: So this is got to fall at least somewhere within

916
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 6: spitting distance to that descript or it's very interesting to

917
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 6: think about how can get adapted and which ones work

918
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 6: and which ones don't. I mean, that was the piece

919
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 6: I wrote about in the Washington Post. The conclusion was

920
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 6: then the less King, the better, or trying to really

921
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 6: capture the essence of his work and throwing discarding the rest.

922
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 6: And also, and this was something an insight that that

923
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 6: Tasha had start with the characters rather than external events,

924
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 6: which is really kind of the opposite of the way

925
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 6: movies usually work. The example you always uses this is

926
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 6: The Postman Always Rings Twice, which has been adapted in

927
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 6: multiple languages into great film after great film after great film.

928
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 6: And that book is all action and it's very tight,

929
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 6: and there's not a lot of internal business going on.

930
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 6: And with King, I think you need to have that

931
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 6: kind of connection between the characters and the sort of

932
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 6: the monster within or so, you know what I mean.

933
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 6: There has to be that relationship in order to work,

934
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 6: and the best films kind of tap into that. This,

935
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 6: I guess is much more. I mean, like I said,

936
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 6: King approved of it, and it has that King feeling.

937
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 6: But I mean, you could probably lose some of that

938
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 6: and it would be a better movie.

939
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 3: Right Yeah. I mean, I think when King approves of

940
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 3: adaptations of his work, it kind of comes down to

941
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 3: did they get what I was thinking when I wrote this?

942
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 3: And like here, what he was thinking when he wrote

943
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 3: this was about his own childhood. The reason, like the

944
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 3: stated reason they hates Kubrick's The Shining so much is

945
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 3: because he had specific ideas about the Jack Nicholson character,

946
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 3: being a dude who was trying to be a good

947
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 3: dad and was haunted into insanity. And the fact that

948
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 3: Nicholson played the character, he felt like that guy could

949
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 3: never be a good dad, It could never be a

950
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 3: surprise when he went insane, he was already insane. So

951
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 3: his feeling there is I had this one thing in mind.

952
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 3: This film did not do it. Therefore it is a terrible.

953
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 7: Film, and which is honest reaction to God, I am

954
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 7: Steve named Stephen Webber, Who's going He's going to do perfect?

955
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 9: Yeah?

956
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 3: God, that adaptation is literal worst.

957
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 4: Well.

958
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 6: The other thing too, is I think Kubrick just thoroughly

959
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 6: disrespected King and just kind of took what he wanted

960
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 6: and you know, threw away his screenplay, kind of didn't

961
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 6: really care what he thought about the wait.

962
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 3: Stanley Kubrick had a strong idea of what he wanted

963
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 3: for a movie, and he pursued it everything else around.

964
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 6: Kind of a I mean, god knows, there have been

965
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 6: dozens of terrible adaptations of Stephen King books, but for

966
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 6: King to focus on the one that everyone thinks is

967
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 6: the best, I don't know that tells you something. I

968
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 6: think about a very personal slight I think he felt

969
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 6: with that film.

970
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 7: You know, there's so much King and so many King

971
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 7: of movies. Will probably have an opportunity to revisit this

972
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 7: question in a future episode, but for now, I have

973
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 7: one final question. Could Mighty Mouse be Superman? Tasha?

974
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 3: I mean, Superman has a big, significant weakness, and I'm

975
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 3: not actually aware of Mighty Mouse having a big significant weakness.

976
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 3: So oh, I mean he's not like allergic to cheese

977
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 3: from his own planet or anything. So it really depends

978
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 3: on whether Mighty Mask could get his pause on some kryptonite.

979
00:45:57,960 --> 00:45:59,959
Speaker 7: I think he's so smart, so Loophole had consent.

980
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 3: He's so small he would be very hard to hit.

981
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 2: Well.

982
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 6: Which one of these have has opposable thumbs? They both

983
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 6: have a posable thuhlny.

984
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 3: Money money Moss isn't like an actual mouse. You realize

985
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 3: that he like he wears clothes, he's got a cape,

986
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 3: super strength, super strength, super speeded yep, react to that? Well,

987
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 3: we don't know. I'm not sure.

988
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 7: I think Tasha has made a compelling case that there's

989
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 7: more to talk about there than they might have considered

990
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 7: in the film. So we'll leave you. Upon you that

991
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 7: and we'll be right back.

992
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 4: Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless

993
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,800
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994
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995
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996
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997
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,920
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998
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,840
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999
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,160
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1000
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 4: dollar per month trial at shopify dot com slash special offer.

1001
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 7: Now it's time for feedback. This week, we're going to

1002
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 7: reach back a couple episodes to read some letters about

1003
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 7: our pairing of Guillo Pontekerravo's The Battle of Algiers and

1004
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 7: Catherine Bigelow's Detroit Tasha. Care to share one sure?

1005
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 3: This is an excerpt from a longer letter by Aaron

1006
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 3: from Toronto. We'll post the full letter on our Facebook page.

1007
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 3: Erin also points out that he's written about the movie

1008
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 3: at the site three brothersfilm dot com. That's the numeral three,

1009
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 3: followed by brothersfilm dot com if you're curious. Aaron writes,

1010
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 3: I can comment on the film's relationship to Catherine Bigelow's

1011
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 3: work as a whole, as I spent two falls ago

1012
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 3: working through all her films and trying to draw parallels

1013
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 3: on the entirety of her work. Well, I don't want

1014
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 3: to ignore the racial elements of the film, as there

1015
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 3: rightly its main focus. I do think the film is

1016
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 3: also examining the way that perceptions of masculinity play under

1017
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 3: race relations I think this works into Bigelow's career focus

1018
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 3: on masculinity and the ways that specifically men react in

1019
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 3: violent situation, and how those reactions are largely dependent on

1020
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 3: the perceptions of themselves. In Detroit, this focus comes out

1021
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 3: mainly with Officer Kraus and Melvin and in how they

1022
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 3: engage with this situation at the Algiers. However, it also

1023
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 3: plays out in Larry's PTSD fallout and his inability to

1024
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 3: perform for white audiences after the incident, as he can

1025
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 3: no longer compromise his black masculinity as a white product.

1026
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 6: I'm just trying to think about other big old films

1027
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 6: where race and masculinity are a concern. I guess we

1028
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 6: have to go back to strange days, right.

1029
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 3: Oh well, yeah, But I mean, I think what he's

1030
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 3: saying here is more about her interest in masculinity, which

1031
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 3: you certainly see that like in the.

1032
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 6: Hurt Locker for exam Blue for the Mistakes.

1033
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think that her films are largely

1034
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 3: about men and their relationships to each other and how

1035
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 3: they prove themselves and how they feel about themselves. In

1036
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 3: this case, it happens to be about masculinity and race,

1037
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 3: but in other movies that she's done, it's about different

1038
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 3: forms of expressing yourself as a man, and about holding

1039
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 3: back on certain emotions and about taking action in crisis

1040
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 3: situations and kind of how the macho impulse affects the

1041
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 3: choices people meg.

1042
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, it might, and it might also reflect her own

1043
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 6: interest and journey as a filmmaker too, and the types

1044
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 6: of films that she has made, which which are very

1045
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 6: often the province of of men and her efforts to

1046
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 6: kind of find a place in that in that world

1047
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 6: and kind of deliver with the same sort of impact

1048
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 6: but from a different angle.

1049
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 7: Obviously, Scott, you brought up strange days. We should point

1050
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 7: out that we thought about doing that as the pairing

1051
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 7: with Detroit, and I think I've been really good, but

1052
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,479
Speaker 7: it's it's kind of hard to track down these days.

1053
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 7: It's a shame it's not streaming anywhere, and like it's

1054
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 7: out of print on Blu ray and DVD, and that's

1055
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 7: certainly a movie I didn't love it at the time,

1056
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 7: but a movie i'd love to revisit.

1057
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 3: I've revisited that movie a lot. Yeah you like it, Yeah,

1058
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 3: I'm a huge fan.

1059
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 7: Are you jacked in too?

1060
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 3: Well?

1061
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 7: I think part of trailer is like do you want

1062
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 7: to get jacked in? Like a billion times to the

1063
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 7: point where I didn't want to get jacked in.

1064
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,959
Speaker 6: But it's also a joke that I always always talked

1065
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 6: to Keith any anytime that anything Internet related happened at

1066
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 6: the office that we're always jacked in.

1067
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I had a jack installed into my brain

1068
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 3: specifically to get jacked into this film, and now it's

1069
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 3: not available, So I've just got this port hanging out

1070
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 3: of my head for no reason. No, as Strange Days

1071
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 3: is actually a movie that I love, and when I

1072
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 3: forget who brought it up as a pairing here with Detroit,

1073
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 3: but I was all over it, and Lowry super excited.

1074
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 3: Keim Lowery and.

1075
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 6: Lowry brought it up as a choice on Twitter. I

1076
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 6: think it was our first choice ultimately, Yeah.

1077
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 3: And then we couldn't get it, and we kind of

1078
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,479
Speaker 3: have a rule here that we're not going to spend

1079
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 3: a whole bunch of time analyzing a film that nobody

1080
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 3: gets to see once we're done. It really would have

1081
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 3: been an interesting pairing in part just because it does,

1082
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 3: you know, as this letter says, have a great deal

1083
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 3: to do with with masculinity and self definition. Ray Fine's

1084
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 3: character is kind of trying to redefine himself after a

1085
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 3: relationship went wrong. He's trying to redefine himself after his

1086
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 3: job went wrong. He's trying to redefine himself basically as

1087
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 3: a low level dealer in psychic experiences that you can

1088
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 3: plug into your head and just kind of as an

1089
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 3: exploration both of a kind of near future, creepy science

1090
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 3: fiction world and ultimately as a film that is pretty

1091
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 3: heavily about race and policing and abuse of police powers

1092
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 3: and a mystery being unpacked and secrets and a cover

1093
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,439
Speaker 3: up like it would have been a really good pairing.

1094
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 3: I think that looping back to this letter Strange Days,

1095
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 3: maybe more than any of her other films, kind of underlines.

1096
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 7: How I like.

1097
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 3: I think this is a really good observation. I think

1098
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 3: this is true. I think that she is really interested

1099
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 3: in masculinity. I think that the officers here do kind

1100
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 3: of let their their definitions of who they are and

1101
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 3: how they're policing should work push them way beyond where

1102
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 3: they should be, because you know, they can't let it go,

1103
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 3: because they can't back down, because they would feel like

1104
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 3: less less of men they if they let this situation

1105
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 3: go without proving them.

1106
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 6: It's just tremendous insecurity and weakness that makes the MAC

1107
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 6: down because they do. And racism, Yeah, but.

1108
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 3: I mean it's all kind of the same thing. Yeah, Well,

1109
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,280
Speaker 3: I think that racism comes from a place of insecurity

1110
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 3: and weakness.

1111
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 7: Sure, continue on along those lines. Our discussion of Algiers

1112
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 7: and Detroit left us with a lot of difficult questions,

1113
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 7: and apparently we weren't alone, Scott. I think you have

1114
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 7: a short letter addressing this from JP.

1115
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 6: Yes, JP, writes one reviewer of Detroit, Alex Jackson at

1116
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 6: film Freak Central wrote something that really got me thinking.

1117
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 6: Quote I'm sure that this may read to some as

1118
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 6: racial tourism, that it's the embodiment of white privilege to

1119
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,439
Speaker 6: be black for a couple of hours and then go home.

1120
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 6: But I'm not sure where the line is between that

1121
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 6: and valuing and believing in the empathetic process. End quote.

1122
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 6: I'm not sure either, what is the line between empathy

1123
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 6: and tourism? Is there even one? Or is racial tourism

1124
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 6: just an extremely cynical way of looking at cinema as

1125
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 6: empathy machine.

1126
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 3: I think the answer to that in this case at

1127
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 3: least is fairly clear. Like some of the letters that

1128
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,399
Speaker 3: most objected to Detroit from a racial angle, I think

1129
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 3: particularly Angelica Bastion's review over at Roger Ebert, which is

1130
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 3: when that got cited a lot by people concerned over

1131
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 3: like the people I'm going to say about critics who

1132
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 3: seem to be implying that white people could not make

1133
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 3: a film about black black people, Like that's how some

1134
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 3: people seem to read that review, and I really think

1135
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 3: like that's going overboard. It seemed to me that that

1136
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 3: review in specific was about the fact that the black

1137
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 3: characters in this film have so little sense of lives,

1138
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,919
Speaker 3: of inner lives, of things that they want out of life,

1139
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 3: of backgrounds. They're thrust on the screen in order to suffer.

1140
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 3: And I think for the empathy machine to work, you

1141
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 3: have to be able to put yourself like fully in

1142
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 3: in the body of somebody in a film, and it's

1143
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 3: hard to do when they don't feel like a complete character,

1144
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 3: when they only feel like they're there for a moment

1145
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 3: of suffering. To me, the difference between tourism and the

1146
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 3: empathy machine is that tourism is by definition, something where

1147
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 3: you drop in, grab what you want, and come back out,

1148
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 3: and the empathy machine is about like creating something more sophisticated,

1149
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 3: more nuanced, and something more lived. It seems to me

1150
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 3: that the people who are most objecting to Detroit as

1151
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 3: racial tourism were specifically saying this is a drop and

1152
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 3: dropout film.

1153
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 6: But I would almost say, though, that it matters where

1154
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 6: you fall on the film. If you like it, you

1155
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 6: might think it is empathetic in terms of you are

1156
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 6: connecting to this very specific experience that these characters are

1157
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 6: having to go through, of their feeling of being trapped,

1158
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 6: of having no power and recourse. But of course if

1159
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 6: you you can look at it the other way is

1160
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 6: as as you look at it as and and come

1161
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 6: on the other side of that equation.

1162
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, what a scientology though, Scott.

1163
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 7: What if you respect it but also felt it was

1164
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 7: deeply flawed? How would you feel then?

1165
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 6: I mean that is that is ultimately my position. But

1166
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 6: I but I almost think that it comes down to,

1167
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 6: you know, how you feel about the film, not really

1168
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 6: about the effort on the.

1169
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 7: Part of the I don't think we can relitigate Detroit

1170
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 7: in this episode.

1171
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't mean to reltigate it. I'm just

1172
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 3: I'm saying, you say, depending on how you feel about

1173
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 3: the film, you both think different ways about it. I

1174
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 3: think you could just as easily say, depending on how

1175
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 3: you think about the film, you'll feel different ways about it.

1176
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 3: Like it can it can run either way.

1177
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 7: Well, we're not going to solve this tonight, but as always,

1178
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 7: we appreciate what our listeners share, their thoughts, recommendations, and

1179
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 7: we really do appreciate a lot of robust feedback on

1180
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 7: this episode or anything related to films. To reach us,

1181
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 7: you can leave a short voicemail at seven seven three

1182
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 7: two three four nine seven three zero, or email us

1183
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 7: at comments at Next Pictureshow dot net. We may feature

1184
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 7: your response on a future episode or post on Facebook

1185
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 7: for discussion. That wraps up this episode of the Next

1186
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 7: Picture Show. In part two, we'll do our best not

1187
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 7: to get lured into the sewer by hypnotic harlequins as

1188
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 7: we take on Stephen King's It. Look for that later

1189
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 7: this week, or better yet, subscribe to the Next Picture

1190
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,919
Speaker 7: Show on Apple Podcasts or your podcatcher of choice. Find

1191
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 7: us at Next Picture Show dot net, follow us at

1192
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,399
Speaker 7: Facebook dot com, slash the Next Picture Show, and follow

1193
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 7: us at Twitter at at Next Picture pod so you'll

1194
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 7: always know when a new episode drops. Until then, we'll

1195
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 7: be smoking stolen cigarettes, cooking hamburgers by the fire. See

1196
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 7: you next time.