Speaker 1: Well, Barkley always calls it like he sees it. And
Speaker 1: when he mentions the players who have won titles with
Speaker 1: Houston Rockets, the three who get the most significant minutes
Speaker 1: are chem Olajuan Clyde, Drexler, and Mary o Ellie. But
Speaker 1: Barkley saying flat out that those players, at least one
Speaker 1: of them, we don't know which one is providing a
Speaker 1: lackadaisical effort.
Speaker 2: That was me, Hannah Storm way back in nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: seven hosting the NBA on NBC. If you've worked as
Speaker 2: long as I have, you definitely have a few defining moments.
Speaker 2: And little did I realize this was one of those
Speaker 2: moments for me because of the response from one of
Speaker 2: the NBA's biggest stars.
Speaker 3: Second, I wish they would print what I said and
Speaker 3: not what they think of me, because y'all got not
Speaker 3: that goddamn smart.
Speaker 4: You know, you got to have a sense of urgency
Speaker 4: because I know I don't want this end. And you know,
Speaker 4: they tried to say I was talking about the Ticlar guys.
Speaker 4: I wasn't talking about the Ticlar guys.
Speaker 2: Before off camera, Barkley told reporters this, and I quote,
Speaker 2: I'm really upset about what NBC. Did you tell Dick eversol,
Speaker 2: I don't appreciate what they did. I don't have to
Speaker 2: go to work for them, even though I told them
Speaker 2: I would. It doesn't surprise me though, because it was
Speaker 2: Hannah Storm. Women shouldn't be announcing men's sports anyway.
Speaker 3: Barkley gets called for the foul work the.
Speaker 2: Art heat of the moment comments for sure, but they
Speaker 2: expressed an all too common sentiment, especially at the time.
Speaker 2: This particular incident happened during the Western Conference Finals. Barkley's
Speaker 2: Rockets were down two games to one to the Utah Jazz.
Speaker 2: This was the quote that sparked at all, which we
Speaker 2: had shared on the NBA on NBC.
Speaker 4: A lot of guys on our team accomplish things that
Speaker 4: they want to and they kind of lack a daisical
Speaker 4: at times and until you realize how it's significant and
Speaker 4: important as is. And that's probably the only thing that
Speaker 4: disappoints me about our team. You know, we have a
Speaker 4: lot of vegan guys who have accomplished what they want
Speaker 4: to accomplish, and they don't feel that since the urgency
Speaker 4: that I feel.
Speaker 2: In questioning who Charles was talking about, I was doing
Speaker 2: my job as our NBA host. One can only imagine
Speaker 2: today the headlines that would have generated on sports debate
Speaker 2: shows as a broadcaster. Now, Charles would have DipEd right in,
Speaker 2: I'm sure, but back then, well, his was often a
Speaker 2: de facto response. Obviously Charles doesn't feel this way now.
Speaker 2: But this story illustrates the type of comments that I've
Speaker 2: heard throughout my career, which began back in nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Showtime, everybody again. The final of from
Speaker 1: Oakland is Portland one thirteen, Golden State ninety six.
Speaker 2: I heard it when I was trying to break into
Speaker 2: the business. My audience won't accept a woman doing sports,
Speaker 2: My sports director won't work with a woman. I'll hire
Speaker 2: a woman over my dead body.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That was a good one. And there's always the standard,
Speaker 2: which I've heard many times, believe it or not, as
Speaker 2: recently as when I took an NFL play by play
Speaker 2: job for Amazon, and that's go back to the kitchen
Speaker 2: where you belong. In terms of this incident, I was
Speaker 2: already fifteen years into my career, a familiar, credible presence
Speaker 2: on CNN and then NBC, and yet I had to wonder,
Speaker 2: will I ever get past this. Who else truly believes
Speaker 2: I don't belong here? Fortunately, this story has a pretty
Speaker 2: good ending. Everybody knew Charles would make a great broadcaster
Speaker 2: even back then, and he was a hot candidate to
Speaker 2: join NBC after retirement. USA Today had a media column
Speaker 2: at the time by Rudy Martz. It was read by
Speaker 2: everyone in the business, and of course this story made headlines.
Speaker 2: My boss, Dick Ebersall offered this response to USA Today,
Speaker 2: and I quote, Charles is like a favorite cousin. He's
Speaker 2: always off the wall, always amusing, and unfortunately occasionally sexist,
Speaker 2: but will always leave the light on the door for Charles.
Speaker 2: Not exactly a repudiation of what Charles said, But Ebersall
Speaker 2: had another plan.
Speaker 6: Is the Prutential Halftime Report brought you.
Speaker 2: Game five of the NBA Finals. I was hosting from
Speaker 2: Salt Lake City, the Jazz having beaten the Rockets, and
Speaker 2: we were planning to announce the formation of the WNBA.
Speaker 1: Halftime of Game five in Utah, with the Jazz leading
Speaker 1: the ball fifty three to forty nine, Chicago trailed by
Speaker 1: as much as six.
Speaker 2: As it happened, Charles Barkley was the guest analyst on
Speaker 2: set that day. Given the circumstances, Ebersall felt that he
Speaker 2: you should apologize, and he did on air during the finals.
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone had a storm back in Salt Lake City.
Speaker 1: I'm joined by Charles Barkley of the Houston Rockets, and Charles,
Speaker 1: let's rite off the bat here, clear something up and
Speaker 1: address some sexist comments that you made during the course
Speaker 1: of the Western Conference finals, one of them being that
Speaker 1: women should not announce men's sporting events.
Speaker 4: You know, that was something that was number one, that
Speaker 4: was second and stupid, but it was something that was
Speaker 4: said in Jess. Now, I want to a person apologize
Speaker 4: to you and all the other women out there who
Speaker 4: do men's sports, and I want you to keep up
Speaker 4: the good work. But it was just some said and
Speaker 4: Jeff that was taking away out of contact, but it
Speaker 4: was still stupid.
Speaker 1: Now, last night we both had the opportunity to attend
Speaker 1: a preseason women's NBA game in Houston.
Speaker 2: Now, as a.
Speaker 1: Man, do you feel that you're qualified a comment on
Speaker 1: the new league?
Speaker 3: Well, you know what I'll tell you.
Speaker 2: I have to admit that felt really good and better.
Speaker 2: Yet Charles grew to become a supportive friend and the
Speaker 2: WNBA became a very very important chapter in my career,
Speaker 2: just as the NBA was and before that, the American
Speaker 2: Basketball Association. One of the questions I am asked the
Speaker 2: most is how did you get into this business? It
Speaker 2: wasn't really a career option for women. Well, I always
Speaker 2: felt that I belonged. That comes from literally growing up
Speaker 2: in basketball.
Speaker 6: Less than two minutes gone in the ballgame and it's
Speaker 6: four to three, Kentucky has the lead, and you can
Speaker 6: almost feel the incestity in this game filbo.
Speaker 2: For as long as I can remember, my dad, Mike Storren,
Speaker 2: was a sports executive, and we followed him around the
Speaker 2: country from city to city and team to team. Today,
Speaker 2: of course, the NBA is a global sports and entertainment giant.
Speaker 2: Players are multi millionaires and cultural icons.
Speaker 6: The rant, oh, padafoul, bing a dollar, a cry back.
Speaker 7: Take a doll, oh fuck like change.
Speaker 2: Where did all that come from? Well, in part because
Speaker 2: of a band of entrepreneurs and visionaries who ended up
Speaker 2: changing the game forever and defining the course of my career.
Speaker 2: As a young girl, I fell in love with the
Speaker 2: fun and excitement of basketball, making sports my dream. Even
Speaker 2: though not everyone shared my vision, basketball has been central
Speaker 2: to my life, and this podcast weaves through our entwined
Speaker 2: history through six decades and three leagues. This is my
Speaker 2: NBA DNA Episode one, My Father's Basketball.
Speaker 6: It gets it back again. McDaniel's favorite good numbers Kentucky,
Speaker 6: the lanes are full right wing, Lois shops and puffs.
Speaker 8: He's got it.
Speaker 2: The basketball of my childhood is something that few have
Speaker 2: actually seen. It exists today through stories passed down through
Speaker 2: the years, an oral history of a league that went
Speaker 2: largely untelevised into cities like Denver, Indianapolis, San Antonio, Louisville,
Speaker 2: Saint Louis and Memphis. It was high flying, wide open, flashy,
Speaker 2: and to a kid, pure magic.
Speaker 8: Two fires one at that time.
Speaker 1: Are there?
Speaker 2: My dad, Mike Storren, was right there at the epicenter
Speaker 2: of the upstart league. His favorite part of his decades
Speaker 2: long career. His highlight reel is pretty epic. He helped
Speaker 2: found the Indiana Pacers and was general manager of three
Speaker 2: professional teams, including the Atlanta Hawks. He was the fifth
Speaker 2: commissioner of the American Basketball Association, which existed from nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty seven to nineteen seventy six, and Dad loved to
Speaker 2: tell stories about it.
Speaker 9: Just tell a lot of lies, right, Star is a
Speaker 9: lot better belly. No, I'm just easy.
Speaker 2: That's my dad. Sadly we lost him in twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: but I'm grateful that he was interviewed extensively by the
Speaker 2: folks at the NBA, so you'll hear my dad throughout
Speaker 2: this series. He was super creative and I'm proud that
Speaker 2: many of his ideas are part of the game today.
Speaker 9: Wouldn't it be great one day if we really had
Speaker 9: television and more than one game a week on Sunday afternoon.
Speaker 9: Wouldn't it be great if we were able to make
Speaker 9: and incorporate internationally basketball and tap into and take advantage
Speaker 9: of the great players in the world. And wouldn't it
Speaker 9: be great if everybody could wear San Antonio Spurs jacket?
Speaker 9: And wouldn't it be great if we could acknowledge women's
Speaker 9: role in basketball.
Speaker 2: Now you can see where I got my ability to
Speaker 2: think outside the box. Of course, back then, I was
Speaker 2: just a little kid along for the wild ride that
Speaker 2: was my dad's career, alongside my two younger brothers, Mark
Speaker 2: and Duke Storn. Here's Duke.
Speaker 7: We moved around every four years or so. We went
Speaker 7: from Indianapolis to Louisville, to Memphis, to Atlanta to Houston.
Speaker 7: Always had interesting people over to the house, sometimes athletes,
Speaker 7: sometimes just characters from my dad's sports world.
Speaker 2: Since we moved around a lot, my dad's teams were
Speaker 2: more like extended families that come for Thanksgiving or Christmas parties.
Speaker 6: Artist gets it again, I got you back.
Speaker 2: I remember players like Bob MADELECKI Melt Daniels, Artist Gilmore,
Speaker 2: dan Issel hanging out at the house.
Speaker 7: That's probably my earliest memory. I mean, I've got a
Speaker 7: great picture of sitting on artist Gilmore's lap. I was,
Speaker 7: you know, three years old or something, and you know,
Speaker 7: I like he could actually hold me in his hand.
Speaker 2: Probably, Oh my gosh, I need that picture. You got
Speaker 2: to send me the picture.
Speaker 7: Because he was you know, seven too. But as you know,
Speaker 7: the froze were so great back in the late sixties
Speaker 7: early seventies.
Speaker 8: Yeah, he had another He had like.
Speaker 7: Another six inches, you know, going with his cool hair.
Speaker 6: Feel more setting up low inside Roberts.
Speaker 7: You got to go to a lot of good games
Speaker 7: and felt like sports royalty, getting a sick courtside and
Speaker 7: yell at the refs and do all the things that
Speaker 7: my Dad would do well.
Speaker 2: Actually, it was Mom who yelled at the referees because
Speaker 2: Mom played basketball in college, and so she was constantly
Speaker 2: yelling at the refs. And what I remember was she'd
Speaker 2: be like, goshoo, he walked, blah blah blah, blah blah.
Speaker 2: I remember knowing the names of all the referees almost
Speaker 2: better than the players, because Mom would yell at them
Speaker 2: right mark.
Speaker 8: Half the fun was going there knowing we were just
Speaker 8: going to scream at some adults and we could get
Speaker 8: away with it, and it was It was totally acceptable.
Speaker 8: I also remember sitting around the dinner table right commenting
Speaker 8: on teams and players by hate say now, but probably
Speaker 8: particularly by me, was like, oh, you don't know, you know, hen,
Speaker 8: you just have no idea that. Of course, after a
Speaker 8: few years, everyone quickly learned in the entire family never
Speaker 8: to argue with Hannah when it came to anything about
Speaker 8: sports again, because she always had a lot more facts,
Speaker 8: you know, to back up her opinions and stuff.
Speaker 2: Those dinner table debates were great for me, especially as
Speaker 2: I tried to prove to my dad how much I knew.
Speaker 2: I even remember when I was little sitting with him
Speaker 2: at our kitchen table in Indianapolis and drawing up the
Speaker 2: Pacers colors and team low go, that's so funny. What
Speaker 2: sticks with you? Years later?
Speaker 8: I remember dan Issel taking his teeth out, I think
Speaker 8: Kentucky Colonel's right, taking his front two teeth out before
Speaker 8: every game, and he would walk over and he'd scowl
Speaker 8: at the bench of the opposing team, you know, missing
Speaker 8: these teeth in front, and like I'm like, what's he doing?
Speaker 8: And David always laughing, like it's just trying to intimidate
Speaker 8: those guys, And of course he usually did on.
Speaker 10: The bookles all over the place tonight twenty four point.
Speaker 2: Something else that I remember vividly the style women dressed
Speaker 2: to the nines for the games. My mom had an
Speaker 2: entire closet of wigs and cool outfits like hot pants.
Speaker 2: The glamorous women at the games, like C. C. Daniels
Speaker 2: and Turquoise Irving. They were like movie stars to me.
Speaker 6: I had a chetam taine for William.
Speaker 2: Of course, on the court, it also was all about
Speaker 2: stuck the playground moves, the pace of the game, the
Speaker 2: three pointers, the slam dunks, all of it would eventually
Speaker 2: become a cornerstone of basketball as we know it today,
Speaker 2: and at the center of all of it was the
Speaker 2: face of the abat doctor j It's so great to
Speaker 2: talk to you and great to see you a face
Speaker 2: that's so familiar. I've known you since I was a
Speaker 2: little girl. I don't know, wondering how old. My dad
Speaker 2: always said, I guess I met you, and I was
Speaker 2: probably eight.
Speaker 11: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Julius Irving was the ABA long before he helped lead
Speaker 2: the Sixers to an NBA title in nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 2: He played hoops at Roosevelt High School on Long Island
Speaker 2: and had a few early iterationations of that famous nickname.
Speaker 6: Harry come Doctor looks.
Speaker 7: For Daylight with me, and they took that to the.
Speaker 11: I had a nickname that I had gotten like in
Speaker 11: ninth grade from my friend the professor. He called me
Speaker 11: the Doctor. So when they started calling me different names,
Speaker 11: the Claude he called me, and that was pretending to
Speaker 11: be in like Connie Hawkins being called the claw because
Speaker 11: I could pick the ball up in one hand, and I.
Speaker 5: Was like, I don't want to be clawed.
Speaker 2: It doesn't have the same ring.
Speaker 11: I don't want to be you know. I don't think
Speaker 11: it turned out that well.
Speaker 5: For me, I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 2: And then doctor Julius, which truly doesn't have the same
Speaker 2: ring as doctor J. Right, doctor J. It's just perfect.
Speaker 11: Well, I told him the doctor because that was what
Speaker 11: Leon gave me. He gave me the doctor, and I
Speaker 11: gave him the professor. And so they took to the
Speaker 11: doctor and they said doctor, the doctor. Doctor. That first year,
Speaker 11: and when I went to training camp to the team,
Speaker 11: positions were called doc and doctor, and our trainer said, well,
Speaker 11: you got to be doctor J, because you know doctor
Speaker 11: Mason is doctor M. So I became doctor J.
Speaker 2: Doctor J was twenty one when he began his ABA career,
Speaker 2: having left after his junior year at UMass. That's something
Speaker 2: you could not do in the NBA at the time.
Speaker 2: He played for the Virginia Squires and later the New
Speaker 2: York Nets and helped take the street style of Harlem's
Speaker 2: famed Rooker Park to the pro.
Speaker 6: Doctor J under unbelievable Doctor J with us back to
Speaker 6: the basket. So they get to and they moved it
Speaker 6: with the play.
Speaker 5: It was.
Speaker 12: It was kind of like a coming out party for
Speaker 12: me because I had played two years at UMass's varsity
Speaker 12: player in one year as a freshman, and during that time,
Speaker 12: you know, the dunk was taken out of the game.
Speaker 11: He had limited it my sophomore year because you could
Speaker 11: dunk in the warm ups, so when you're warming up
Speaker 11: and you loosen it up, you can dunk basketball. And
Speaker 11: then by junior year, they just took it out all
Speaker 11: together because they were trying to slow down Blue el center.
Speaker 11: I think they were.
Speaker 8: I think it was aimed at him, That's what I.
Speaker 5: Was, Okay.
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that.
Speaker 11: Okay, not that he dunkeed the ball a whole lot,
Speaker 11: but it made him develop that skyhook that nobody was
Speaker 11: able to taste.
Speaker 6: What a big pressure shot.
Speaker 11: So I think it was aimed to him.
Speaker 2: And in your first season in the ABA, you averaged
Speaker 2: twenty seven points fifteen rebounds for assists, your second team
Speaker 2: All ABA, a runner up for Rookie of the Year
Speaker 2: behind artist Gilmore. How was the top talent of the ABA, Well, I.
Speaker 11: Think the cream of the crop, you know, which was
Speaker 11: artists and Danis or George McInnis, Melo Daniels, Roger Brown,
Speaker 11: Willie White as Zimobati. The competition was great. I had
Speaker 11: a guy named Joe Calwell who was really a thought
Speaker 11: on my side. I think I averaged twenty seven points
Speaker 11: against the rest of the league in about twenty one
Speaker 11: or twenty two against him, and I always have my
Speaker 11: shorts turned around after the game. No, I had nothing
Speaker 11: but respect for the players. There was a footloose and
Speaker 11: fancy freeiness about it.
Speaker 9: And of course the NBA position was they play a
Speaker 9: undisciplined brand of basketball, they don't know how to play defense,
Speaker 9: and they certainly couldn't compete against the wonderful level of
Speaker 9: talent that we have in the NBA. On the other side,
Speaker 9: we said, NBA doesn't know what they're talking about. Our
Speaker 9: players are just as good as theirs, if not better,
Speaker 9: our teams are as good as theirs, if not better,
Speaker 9: And we are every bit as good and entertaining and
Speaker 9: more entertaining in the NBA.
Speaker 2: From day one, the ABA intended to disrupt the League's
Speaker 2: founders had watched the American Football League merge with the NFL,
Speaker 2: and in nineteen sixty seven they created the ABA in
Speaker 2: hopes of a merger with the NBA. At the time,
Speaker 2: that's where my dad was in the NBA with the
Speaker 2: Cincinnati Royals, but he jumped at the chance to create
Speaker 2: a team in the new League in his home state
Speaker 2: of Indiana.
Speaker 9: As a business manager for the Cincinnati Royals and as
Speaker 9: a former Marine, I believed that I could run a
Speaker 9: basketball team as well as anybody. All that, of course,
Speaker 9: would be subject to question, but certainly not in my mind.
Speaker 9: When the ABA began its formation, a contemporary and best
Speaker 9: friend of mine from the Marine Corps was an attorney
Speaker 9: in Indianapolis, Indiana. His name was Dick Tinkham, and Dick
Speaker 9: put together a group that was interested in joining the
Speaker 9: ABA and putting a franchise in Indianapolis, Indiana. And Dick
Speaker 9: called me and said, as a contemporary from the Marine Corps,
Speaker 9: we're looking for somebody to come in here and run
Speaker 9: this thing. Are you interested? And my answer was I'll
Speaker 9: be there tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Dad grew up in Michigan City, Indiana, and went to
Speaker 2: Notre Dame, playing one year of football there, just as
Speaker 2: he did following college when he served in the Marine Corps.
Speaker 2: Then he decided to try and make sports a career.
Speaker 2: As we were living in Chicago, where I had been born.
Speaker 9: And so I wrote every sports team in the United
Speaker 9: States and said that I was coming out of the
Speaker 9: Marine Corps and I was looking for a job, and
Speaker 9: I received somewhere around two hundred rejection letters, and as
Speaker 9: a result, I thought, well, let's see it doesn't work
Speaker 9: by sending anybody a letter. So I read in the
Speaker 9: Chicago Tribune that the then Chicago Zephyr's professional basketball team
Speaker 9: had only sold six hundred season tickets. So I picked
Speaker 9: up the telephone and I called the owner of the
Speaker 9: Chicago Zephyrs and I said, this is Captain Mike Storn
Speaker 9: of the United States Marine Corps, and I'd like to
Speaker 9: meet you on personal business. So he had no idea
Speaker 9: who it was or what was going on. Put it
Speaker 9: on my dressed blue uniform, went down to his office
Speaker 9: and I said, mister Trager, I personally will sell six
Speaker 9: hundred new season tickets for your team. He hired me
Speaker 9: and I became the promotion director for the Chicago Zephyrs,
Speaker 9: who subsequently moved to Baltimore, where I moved with the
Speaker 9: team and started my professional sports career.
Speaker 2: My dad was unafraid to put himself out there a
Speaker 2: trait my brothers and I would inherit.
Speaker 13: Was it Chicago, where he would open the back door
Speaker 13: and let in everybody, so that would look like that
Speaker 13: the stadium was filled up for that Baltimore.
Speaker 2: I bet he did that in numerous cities too.
Speaker 6: Well.
Speaker 7: I mean, I think he always looked at another way
Speaker 7: to solve a problem. You know, he would do that.
Speaker 7: He would extend that like to everyday life, Like he
Speaker 7: always found a parking space even if it was illegal,
Speaker 7: like right, it's an entrant, or if there was a
Speaker 7: line for tickets, you know. I remember Mark tells a
Speaker 7: story he was going to see I don't know, Star
Speaker 7: Wars or something.
Speaker 8: Non Living Dead midnight movie along.
Speaker 7: My living dad and they were one hundred people back
Speaker 7: and Dad would say, I'll be back in a minute,
Speaker 7: and he would like come back with the ticket. Yeah,
Speaker 7: the rules didn't always apply to Dad, and I think
Speaker 7: he was really proud of that. And I think that
Speaker 7: that type of example inspired us all to maybe think
Speaker 7: differently and not just accept the status quo of the
Speaker 7: way that the world worked. And you know, obviously, Hannah,
Speaker 7: you just breaking through like every glass ceiling as a
Speaker 7: pre eminent woman's sportscaster that led the way for all
Speaker 7: all the others, you must have absorbed that same lesson.
Speaker 7: It's like, just because that's the way that things are
Speaker 7: doesn't mean this way they have to be.
Speaker 8: I just remember that we really kind of had a
Speaker 8: sports culture that we grew up in, right, So it's
Speaker 8: so not surprising handed that, you know, you've broken down
Speaker 8: a lot of those walls and stuff to be you know,
Speaker 8: a woman broadcaster in sports, and that dad, you know,
Speaker 8: made a career out of it. Every house we lived in,
Speaker 8: the first thing that happened we moved to a new house.
Speaker 8: Who gets put up right?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 8: In the driveway, Samannada, we always had a ping pong table. Yeah,
Speaker 8: there was just constantly this, oh, let's go play this,
Speaker 8: you know, where there was a game or sports doing
Speaker 8: the football or whatever. There was just constantly this culture
Speaker 8: of competing in sports that was going on all the time.
Speaker 11: Right.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You also got rid of a bunch of my boyfriends
Speaker 2: that way. So every time I would date somebody, oh
Speaker 2: my god, every time I would date somebody, Mark and
Speaker 2: Duke would take him out on the hoops court and
Speaker 2: Dad too, egging the whole thing. And then like if
Speaker 2: the guy like wasn't like a decent hoops player, you
Speaker 2: can tell the story, but you can't say name's Mark.
Speaker 8: Yes, we did get rid of several boyfriends starting to
Speaker 8: high school, I think right like Hannah would kind of
Speaker 8: get serious and then definitely in college and afterwards, and
Speaker 8: when it started to you know, turn the corner hand,
Speaker 8: it would go from you know, it was a fun
Speaker 8: day to you know, a little twickle in her eye
Speaker 8: to come up it was like, okay, we have to
Speaker 8: take this person out, and it would be too unto
Speaker 8: So often it was Dad and I against Duke and
Speaker 8: Hannah's boyfriend, and the whole thing was we don't really
Speaker 8: care if he shoots that well, but what's the dude
Speaker 8: gonna do when he takes a heart foul? Like that
Speaker 8: was Dad's things, like he's like, you know, one time
Speaker 8: it would be you know, Duke on the opposite team,
Speaker 8: next over your knee, but one of us would be
Speaker 8: like you knock him on his butt or shove him
Speaker 8: on a pit into the bushes next to the garage,
Speaker 8: and then don't say thing like no one likes you know, no,
Speaker 8: oh starry. If the dude gets up and he's whiny
Speaker 8: and like this, you know, total baby and then trying
Speaker 8: to like get up everyone's face, it's like, you know,
Speaker 8: one of us is gonna tell hand this this person's
Speaker 8: not gonna work out. And then, of course when we
Speaker 8: did the same thing with Dan Hicks, Dan Hicks happens
Speaker 8: to be not only a really good sportscaster and golfer,
Speaker 8: but dude can shoot some hoops to my gosh, and
Speaker 8: of course, you know, he took his fair share of
Speaker 8: you know, elbows to the face and heart kicks.
Speaker 2: Never complained once spoiler alert, I married Dan. But enough
Speaker 2: of that, let's get back to the story of my dad.
Speaker 2: He saw an opportunity with the ABA, and he wasn't
Speaker 2: afraid to take it.
Speaker 9: The exciting part of my going to Indiana and going
Speaker 9: into the ABA is that I started in Indianapolis, Indiana,
Speaker 9: with a yellow legal pad and a pencil. Starting from
Speaker 9: scratch was a wonderful opportunity for me. That meant I
Speaker 9: had total control and I could implement and do everything
Speaker 9: the way that I thought it should be done.
Speaker 2: There were no assistant GMS, scouting directors, presidents of basketball operations.
Speaker 2: When my dad went to Indiana, he made all the
Speaker 2: basketball decisions. He brought in three future Hall of famers,
Speaker 2: hired Slick Leonard to coach, traded for superstar Mel Daniels
Speaker 2: and sign the man that many have called the best
Speaker 2: player to never play in the NBA, Roger Brown. My
Speaker 2: dad's decisions would become the foundation of a team that
Speaker 2: won three titles and went to five ABA finals. Of course,
Speaker 2: not all of my dad's moves over the years were popular,
Speaker 2: as we learned firsthand when my dad became general manager
Speaker 2: of the Kentucky Colonels and fired its popular coach, Gene Rhodes.
Speaker 9: One of the articles said, if you don't like what
Speaker 9: mister Starrn has done, go to the games and boo him,
Speaker 9: and two call him and tell them what you think. Well,
Speaker 9: I've never had an unlisted phone, and a lot of
Speaker 9: people called. I must say that my wife became a
Speaker 9: little upset with the results, not particularly happy when some
Speaker 9: people dumb garbage on my front lawn. And so, to
Speaker 9: make a long story short, I had my wife and
Speaker 9: kids go to Disneyland for a week while things cooled off.
Speaker 2: Here's my brother Mark.
Speaker 8: I know that Dad would orchestrate trades on behalf of
Speaker 8: the team, and a lot of times people be protesting
Speaker 8: Dan's moves. And here's one picture, this guy holding the
Speaker 8: sign saying trade storing for schubin it. Yeah, Pacers, right,
Speaker 8: So I remember not everyone always being happy about decisions
Speaker 8: that might have been made that impacted the team. But
Speaker 8: also I remember the react, you know, Dan's reaction, which is,
Speaker 8: you know, you know what, we don't need to worry
Speaker 8: about those people. And there's always going to be people
Speaker 8: who love you. There's always gonna be people that hate you,
Speaker 8: so you know, you just got to kind of kind
Speaker 8: of carry on.
Speaker 2: I vividly remember being in Memphis and people putting for
Speaker 2: sale signs in our.
Speaker 5: Yard though oh really, oh really.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do remember that. And then I remember being
Speaker 2: in high school with the Atlanta Hawks. Dad was only
Speaker 2: with the Hawks for a couple of months before he
Speaker 2: made a move that Ted Turner didn't like. And I
Speaker 2: remember being in high school and dad had just gotten
Speaker 2: the job with the Atlanta Hawks and then he was
Speaker 2: like fired almost immediately, like months later, and I remember
Speaker 2: that that was super embarrassing and like sad as a
Speaker 2: high school kid, you mean, yeah, yeah, you know, you
Speaker 2: felt bad for your dad. You felt like, oh, you're
Speaker 2: not the new kid in town, and like, so there's
Speaker 2: some things I remember like that, but I think mostly
Speaker 2: our remember like the sadness of losing we love to
Speaker 2: just yell at athletes and you know, rip on gms
Speaker 2: and say that coaches should be fired and all of that.
Speaker 2: And I mean, I don't know about you, guys, but
Speaker 2: I do think about our own experience of like our
Speaker 2: dad getting fired from jobs and you know, losing jobs
Speaker 2: and one that does to your family and moving around,
Speaker 2: and I don't know, I think that that gives you
Speaker 2: a lot of empathy. Growing up with my dad gave
Speaker 2: me an understanding of the business of sports. After his
Speaker 2: Indiana Pacers won the ABA title in nineteen seventy, he
Speaker 2: became president GM and part owner of the Kentucky Colonels,
Speaker 2: quickly building the team into an ABA powerhouse. In nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy one, he secured the draft rights for Hall of
Speaker 2: Famer the A train artist Gilmore, who was drafted in
Speaker 2: both leagues, but went to the Colonels on a ten year,
Speaker 2: two point five million dollar contract, becoming both Rookie of
Speaker 2: the Year and MVP over Julia Servia.
Speaker 6: Or should get Blowing's side being jam Bombers command the Breen.
Speaker 5: Going off there.
Speaker 2: My dad was intent on proving to the NBA that
Speaker 2: the ABA was legit.
Speaker 9: I was able to put together the first exhibition games
Speaker 9: between the leagues, so we were able to bring in
Speaker 9: in one exhibition game the Milwaukee Bucks, who at the
Speaker 9: time had a guy named Oscar Robison playing that's center,
Speaker 9: whose name was the Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and we of
Speaker 9: course had Dan Essel and artist Gilmore and Louis Dampier,
Speaker 9: one of the great shooters of all time. I don't
Speaker 9: even remember who won. I guess I would suggest we did,
Speaker 9: but I can remember the building was sold out and
Speaker 9: I remember artists stepping into the center against Kareem. I
Speaker 9: think the players walked away in their own mind and said,
Speaker 9: we really are as good as these guys. In fact,
Speaker 9: we really are better.
Speaker 2: Kentucky was a springboard to my dad's next gig where
Speaker 2: he could really wield some influence as the fifth Commissioner
Speaker 2: of the ABA in nineteen seventy three. It was really
Speaker 2: exciting for my family. We got to fly to New
Speaker 2: York City for the announcement. Here's Duke.
Speaker 7: My early first limo ride I think I ever went on.
Speaker 7: I just remember this incredible trip. I mean it was
Speaker 7: I was young, but I still still remember it.
Speaker 2: We went to the twenty one Club. I remember like
Speaker 2: coming to New York and being like, oh, this is
Speaker 2: my dream man, I want to live here one day.
Speaker 2: And I would many years later working for NBC Sports,
Speaker 2: which is where I first met legendary broadcaster Bob Costas.
Speaker 10: The two craziest experiences of my life were the first
Speaker 10: two at twenty one in the Eastern Hockey League and
Speaker 10: then at twenty two in the ABA. And you know
Speaker 10: from your own experience and your dad's that the ABA
Speaker 10: was both ridiculous.
Speaker 2: And subloc Bob also got his start in the ABA
Speaker 2: long before he became a star with NBC. He left
Speaker 2: Syracuse University in nineteen seventy four twelve credits shy of
Speaker 2: graduation to become the play by play announcer for the
Speaker 2: Saint Louis Spirits. And you were twenty two years old, right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was twenty two. I looked like host fifteen.
Speaker 2: Okay, I believe that, because right now you look like
Speaker 2: you're I don't know, forty. Maybe you know, for the
Speaker 2: purposes this is a podcast, our audience will just have
Speaker 2: to take my word for it.
Speaker 6: Edel File Circle lukas Plait by Barnes looks inside for Gildore,
Speaker 6: finds him in the lane for the hook that has gone.
Speaker 10: You know, I think that the ABA wanted to distinguish
Speaker 10: itself in various ways from the NBA. The Red White
Speaker 10: and Blue ball was part of that. The encouraging of individualism,
Speaker 10: provisational play, again which the old timers scoffed at, But
Speaker 10: when you look at David Thompson, or you look at
Speaker 10: Doctor j who was the greatest of all of them,
Speaker 10: they influenced everybody. The slam dunk contests started in the ABA,
Speaker 10: and again the NBA guys said, all want a cheap gimmick,
Speaker 10: and then they adopted it, and with Michael Jordan and everybody,
Speaker 10: it became a staple of the All Star Game. The
Speaker 10: three pointer was, at least when I was in the ABA,
Speaker 10: and I would say the first couple of decades after
Speaker 10: its adoption by the NBA, it was a strategic punctuation.
Speaker 10: Usually it was a pull up if the guy was
Speaker 10: wide open and unguarded. Now it's integrated in a way
Speaker 10: that there may be in a giving game more threes
Speaker 10: taken than twos.
Speaker 2: The league's free wheeling style and offensive rules were different.
Speaker 2: The iconic Red White and Blue basketball, the concept of cheerleaders,
Speaker 2: crazy halftime entertainment. All of it was designed to sell
Speaker 2: tickets because there was no revenue from a national television contract.
Speaker 10: You know, do you think of one of the best remembered
Speaker 10: plays Doctor j in nineteen eighty against the Lakers, that
Speaker 10: deal where he went under the basket and came back
Speaker 10: out the other side, or the rock the Baby dunk
Speaker 10: where he came diagonally and just went over every I think.
Speaker 5: You might have gone over way rock the baby.
Speaker 2: That's way when slam dunk swung that baby way.
Speaker 10: Those moves, which were widely appreciated because they were on
Speaker 10: national television with the NBA. I saw moves like that
Speaker 10: in games that were not on TV, in front of
Speaker 10: the crowds of.
Speaker 5: Five thousand in Saint Louis and elsewhere.
Speaker 10: And I think one of the things about the ABA,
Speaker 10: and I'm sure you talked about this with your dad
Speaker 10: and other people, it might be the last major American
Speaker 10: sports enterprise that has a real element of legend, because
Speaker 10: a lot of the stories come across as apocryphal. Well,
Speaker 10: this is what I saw that night at Freedom Hall.
Speaker 5: Now I don't know. I was on the other side
Speaker 5: of the court. I saw it differently.
Speaker 10: You know, say anything you want about Michael Jordan and
Speaker 10: as great as he was, or Lebron or whomever you
Speaker 10: want to name, everything they did is fully documented from
Speaker 10: ten different angles.
Speaker 2: What about you as a broadcaster, you know, getting that
Speaker 2: assignment at such a young age and having that be,
Speaker 2: as you said, just your second assignment. Ever, I don't
Speaker 2: know what did you learn during all those crazy years
Speaker 2: or with this renegade league. You know, all these fascinating
Speaker 2: individuals just winging it, you know, making it up as
Speaker 2: they went along.
Speaker 10: There was enough absurdity that I could latch onto that
Speaker 10: you also have to remember this. I'm a contemporary of
Speaker 10: all the players, guys like the late wonderful Steve Snapper Jones.
Speaker 5: He was a veteran.
Speaker 10: He was like, you know, thirty one, thirty two years old,
Speaker 10: so he's the wise man of the team. I was
Speaker 10: roughly the same age as most of the other guys
Speaker 10: on the team. We hung around together, Maurice Lucas, Marvin Barnes,
Speaker 10: Gus Gerard Fly Williams, who was as crazy as.
Speaker 2: It came, the famous Marvin Barnes or infamous Marvin Barnes.
Speaker 2: So share with their audience, who exactly Marvin Barnes was.
Speaker 10: Marvin Barnes was an All American in Providence team that
Speaker 10: went to the Final Four. At one point, he was
Speaker 10: selected second in both the NBA and ABA drafts, right
Speaker 10: behind Bill Walton. So it tells you how highly regarded
Speaker 10: he was. And he and Moses Malone were rookies at
Speaker 10: the same time, same year in the ABA, and Marvin
Speaker 10: was the ABA Rookie of the Year. Moses goes on
Speaker 10: to the Hall of Fame, wins three MVPs in the NBA.
Speaker 10: That's how good Marvin Barnes was. There were nights when
Speaker 10: he was the best player on the floor. Not doctor
Speaker 10: j not artist Gilmore, not dan Issel or anybody else
Speaker 10: you wanted to mention. Marvin Barnes, if he had stayed
Speaker 10: on the straight and narrow, would certainly have been among
Speaker 10: the top fifty in nineteen ninety seven in Cleveland, the
Speaker 10: top seventy five again this past year when they named
Speaker 10: the seventy five greatest, no question about it. But he
Speaker 10: was as crazy as he was talented. It was hard
Speaker 10: to dislike him, though, because he was so humorous. And
Speaker 10: there's a lot of stories. And I know that some
Speaker 10: people have heard this one before, because I've built it
Speaker 10: so many times, but it kind of personifies him. We
Speaker 10: played in Kentucky against a very good Colonel's team that
Speaker 10: won the championship that first year that I was in
Speaker 10: the league.
Speaker 2: That was my dad's team.
Speaker 10: Yeah, of course, so you know, teams didn't travel by
Speaker 10: charter then, certainly not in the AVA where everybody was on.
Speaker 5: A shoe string budget. Louisville is four and a half
Speaker 5: five hour drive from Saint Louis, but it's in the
Speaker 5: Eastern time zone.
Speaker 10: So we lose as we usually did at Freedom Hall,
Speaker 10: and we gathered the next day at the airport and
Speaker 10: the trainer, who double as the traveling secretary, he passes
Speaker 10: out the itinerary and it says TWA flight three oh
Speaker 10: five depart Louisville.
Speaker 5: Eight am.
Speaker 10: Arrived Saint Louis was seven fifty six and Marvin Barnes
Speaker 10: beckons me over, drapes an arm around my shoulder, and
Speaker 10: from more than a foot above me, he says, bro,
Speaker 10: do you see this. I said yes. He says, well,
Speaker 10: I don't know about you, but as for me, I
Speaker 10: am not getting on any time machine now. Some people
Speaker 10: thought that meant that Marvin was dumb, but he wasn't dumb.
Speaker 10: He was smart and he knew that was funny. But
Speaker 10: he also knew I was more likely to get it
Speaker 10: than let's say, Fly Williams, so he decided.
Speaker 5: To drop the line on me.
Speaker 2: I always picture Marvin bad News Barns in his floor
Speaker 2: length mink coat, and then there was Darnell, doctor dunk
Speaker 2: Hillman with his massive afro. And picture this Larry Brown
Speaker 2: sporting overalls on the sideline. Everything was looser in the ABA.
Speaker 9: The first thing I decided was, well, I guess afros
Speaker 9: were okay. So one of the the rules I relaxed
Speaker 9: was you didn't have to have your hair closely trimmed,
Speaker 9: but no facial hair. And then as we were looking
Speaker 9: at drafting players, I looked at and I said, you know,
Speaker 9: one of the players were really interested in as a
Speaker 9: guy named Artist Gilmore. And Artist really has a lot
Speaker 9: of facial hair. So in anticipation of what was to come,
Speaker 9: one of the rules I changed was you could go
Speaker 9: ahead and have facial hair.
Speaker 2: The ABA didn't want any obstacles when it came to
Speaker 2: convincing players to come to their league, and to that end,
Speaker 2: my father also helped to craft something they called the
Speaker 2: hardship rule that enabled players to turn professional before finishing
Speaker 2: four years of college, something they could not do in
Speaker 2: the NBA. Just part of my dad's legacy. He left
Speaker 2: his post as ABA commissioner after a year to take
Speaker 2: part ownership of the Memphis Sounds, having set the foundation
Speaker 2: for an eventual merger with the NBA.
Speaker 9: I mean, every player we signed could have signed in
Speaker 9: the NBA. And so when you looked at people like
Speaker 9: Julius Irving and the artist Gilmour and Dan Issel and
Speaker 9: Mel Daniels and Freddie Lewis and on and on and on,
Speaker 9: every single player cast his lot with our belief in
Speaker 9: our vision and in what we said we're going to do.
Speaker 9: And so as I look back, that was, you know,
Speaker 9: a wonderful experience.
Speaker 2: Those times are part of my family's folklore. Here's Bob
Speaker 2: costas doctor.
Speaker 10: J of the ABA is like factual page of the
Speaker 10: Negro Leads or something.
Speaker 5: You know, it's all word about pretty much.
Speaker 10: And there was so much mystery and fascination surrounding him
Speaker 10: when he came to the NBA with the seventy six
Speaker 10: ers and a lot of skeptic we'll see how good
Speaker 10: this guy is.
Speaker 2: And then I found out how what he was described
Speaker 2: to somebody, how special it was because you know, it
Speaker 2: wasn't on TV. It's just one of the reasons why
Speaker 2: they went overboard to make it so entertaining to see
Speaker 2: in person, right, because they didn't have a television contract,
Speaker 2: so they had to deal with the revenue that was
Speaker 2: there in front of the fans. What would you tell
Speaker 2: the people that they missed, just.
Speaker 10: How much crazy fun it was and how to this
Speaker 10: day it's a fraternity. You know, I've been lucky enough
Speaker 10: to do a lot of things, But if I bumped
Speaker 10: into somebody who's associated with the ABA in their mind
Speaker 10: first and foremost, I'm an ABA guy. That's how hub
Speaker 10: Brown remembers me. Hubie Brown's a Yeah. I looked over
Speaker 10: and there was this kid there. I thought he was
Speaker 10: the ball boy. He looked like he was twelve. Then
Speaker 10: I realized he's calling the game human. He's been telling
Speaker 10: the same story over and over, and now he's ninety,
Speaker 10: you'll probably be telling it when he was one hundred.
Speaker 10: So it's kind of this fraternity that only those of
Speaker 10: us who were there fully appreciated, and it's like a
Speaker 10: secret club. So if I bumped into artists Gilmore or
Speaker 10: Danesel or even Rick Barry who had more years in
Speaker 10: the NBA than the ABA, but that ABA DNA is
Speaker 10: part of his life story as well. And even though
Speaker 10: I think the ABA ultimately has gotten do we still
Speaker 10: believe that you had to be.
Speaker 8: There that DNA right of the ABA, like the energy
Speaker 8: and the flash and district entertainment value really pursued when
Speaker 8: the two leagues merge. Right, If you look at the
Speaker 8: NBA today, I would say it's much more like the
Speaker 8: ABA of those old days than how the NBA used
Speaker 8: to be.
Speaker 11: Right.
Speaker 8: That DNA and the ABA really has filtered into the NBA,
Speaker 8: and it's now a big part of how we look
Speaker 8: at the NBA.
Speaker 2: Right, and we're all still like huge fans. Is there
Speaker 2: something that I didn't consider including in this conversation, or
Speaker 2: maybe a thought or two that you that you want
Speaker 2: to add.
Speaker 7: Let me think about that for a minute.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Mark.
Speaker 8: I think we should probably talk a little bit more
Speaker 8: about your sports upbringing, you know, and the days of
Speaker 8: Hannah Storm being molded into the sports cash that she
Speaker 8: is today, because you were pretty athletic, even though you
Speaker 8: didn't pursue it hard. I think that's a little bit.
Speaker 8: Do you think that there's a little bit of a
Speaker 8: mission there in terms of, you know, how Hane it
Speaker 8: got to be where she is now.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I was like athlet I mean
Speaker 2: it was really before Title nine, right, so it's like
Speaker 2: women's sports weren't huge. I tried everything, though, but I
Speaker 2: think more it was like the singing and acting and
Speaker 2: being on stage and just really discovering that and being
Speaker 2: kind of a ham and then really understanding from the
Speaker 2: way that we grow up from being a girl that
Speaker 2: was allowed to be around sports a lot because of
Speaker 2: our dad being exposed to it, and understanding how fun
Speaker 2: it was, you know what I mean, So wanting to
Speaker 2: go into TV or wanting to go into the public eye,
Speaker 2: wanted to do something in broadcasting, but where it wasn't
Speaker 2: a pas for girls to go into sports. I think
Speaker 2: I was so determined to go into sports because I
Speaker 2: knew from us growing up just how great it was.
Speaker 7: And you know, the resiliency. I mean, let's face it,
Speaker 7: we moved every four years, not because we are moving
Speaker 7: to every new great opportunity, you know, we are moving
Speaker 7: because we had to right to the next one. Maybe
Speaker 7: maybe not the commissioner job, but all the others. But
Speaker 7: that's resiliency, you know, and modeled resiliency. Coupling that with
Speaker 7: enthusiasm and hard work and intelligence. You know, those are
Speaker 7: all lessons that we absorbed growing up. And you've been
Speaker 7: incredibly resilient, you know, your whole career, Hannah. People saying
Speaker 7: you can't go into the locker.
Speaker 2: Room, yeah, I remember.
Speaker 5: That was like a lot.
Speaker 7: Yeah, controversy and so many misogyny and the doubts about having,
Speaker 7: you know, a woman to be a sportscaster. That's another
Speaker 7: part of our upbringing that really is part of your DNA,
Speaker 7: part of all of our DNAs that really helped you
Speaker 7: succeed and break through, you know, and just having confidence
Speaker 7: in yourself I think has been It's been really fun
Speaker 7: for Mark and I to watch and really inspiring, you know.
Speaker 2: So hey, it's part of our DNA. I love you
Speaker 2: guys so much. Next time.
Speaker 14: On NBA DNA, every year there was a competition for
Speaker 14: players leaving college and having to make a choice between
Speaker 14: the NBA and the ABA.
Speaker 10: And when we look back on it and think about
Speaker 10: what even the least the players makes now, it all
Speaker 10: seems so trivial, but these guys had to fight for
Speaker 10: the right to have free agency and the right to
Speaker 10: have some sort of control over their own lives and careers.
Speaker 11: You know, if you got a check, you ran to
Speaker 11: the bank real quick admitted deposit just to make sure.
Speaker 8: It held up.
Speaker 2: NBA DNA with Hannah Storm is a production of iHeart Podcasts,
Speaker 2: the NBA and Brainstorman Productions. The show is written and
Speaker 2: executive produced by me Hannah Storm, along with Julia Weaver
Speaker 2: and Alex French. Our lead producer and showrunner is Julia Weaver.
Speaker 2: Our senior producers are Peter Kouder, Alex French, and Brandon Reese.
Speaker 2: Editing and sound design by Kurt Garn and Julia Weaver.
Speaker 2: The show's executive producers are Carmen Belmont, Jason English, Sean
Speaker 2: ty Tone, Steve Weintraub, and Jason Weikelt.