1 00:00:23,579 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: Not long ago, my producer Lucy Sullivan visited one of 2 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,060 Speaker 1: the largest parks in New York City. Not Central Park. 3 00:00:30,820 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: Not Prospect Park. Fresh Gills Park. On Staten Island. Lucy 4 00:00:35,780 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: was there with Ben Nadaf-Haffrey reporting for our latest series, 5 00:00:39,420 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: The Staten Island Problem. And while she was there, Lucy 6 00:00:43,300 --> 00:00:46,150 Speaker 1: uncovered a mystery. There was one part of the park, 7 00:00:46,430 --> 00:00:49,190 Speaker 1: one section, that she wasn't allowed to visit. 8 00:00:49,970 --> 00:00:50,229 Speaker 2: Why? 9 00:00:51,190 --> 00:00:56,330 Speaker 1: Because of what's buried there. Today the park is Rolling 10 00:00:56,350 --> 00:01:00,610 Speaker 1: Green Hills, a beautiful and peaceful place. But Fresh Kills, 11 00:01:00,990 --> 00:01:03,900 Speaker 1: as you may know, used to be the world's largest landfill. 12 00:01:04,729 --> 00:01:07,700 Speaker 1: Mayor Rudy Giuliani closed it in the 90s, and the 13 00:01:07,729 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: last barge sailed to Staten Island in March of 2001. 14 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:18,770 Speaker 1: Or so everyone thought. Six months later, in September of 2001, 15 00:01:18,770 --> 00:01:22,770 Speaker 1: it had to reopen. Fresh Kills became the site of 16 00:01:22,810 --> 00:01:26,130 Speaker 1: a giant operation to sort through the rubble from the 17 00:01:26,150 --> 00:01:29,929 Speaker 1: 9-11 terrorist attacks. The last thing brought to the landfill 18 00:01:30,270 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: was what remained of the Twin Towers and all the 19 00:01:33,289 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: people who perished there. A giant pile of dirt and dust. Today, 20 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: Lucy Sullivan has a story about that pile of dust 21 00:01:43,139 --> 00:01:45,179 Speaker 1: and the battle continued. over where it should go. As 22 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,639 Speaker 1: the saying goes, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. But 23 00:01:50,660 --> 00:01:54,169 Speaker 1: when are we no longer ourselves? When do we become dust? 24 00:01:55,570 --> 00:01:59,930 Speaker 1: It all began with a promise. Here's Lucy. 25 00:02:02,490 --> 00:02:06,169 Speaker 3: On the morning of September 11th, 2001, Charles Hirsch rushed 26 00:02:06,230 --> 00:02:09,510 Speaker 3: downtown to the site of the Twin Towers. Hirsch was 27 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,740 Speaker 3: the city's chief medical examiner. He knew his team had 28 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 3: to move quickly. they would need to set up a 29 00:02:14,940 --> 00:02:18,900 Speaker 3: temporary morgue. When the North Tower collapsed, Hirsch was hit 30 00:02:18,940 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 3: with debris and badly injured. Mayor Giuliani spoke to the press. 31 00:02:24,060 --> 00:02:28,130 Speaker 4: Dr. Hirsch was injured and had to be treated, but 32 00:02:28,150 --> 00:02:32,130 Speaker 4: he's organized his office and they are ready to deal 33 00:02:32,150 --> 00:02:36,130 Speaker 4: with thousands and thousands of bodies if they have to. 34 00:02:37,990 --> 00:02:41,730 Speaker 3: Leaving Ground Zero, Hirsch was caked in dust. Later, he 35 00:02:41,790 --> 00:02:45,060 Speaker 3: reached into his pockets and found fistfuls of it He 36 00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:47,390 Speaker 3: told the New York Times that's when it dawned on him. 37 00:02:48,370 --> 00:02:51,410 Speaker 3: If concrete was pulverized into dust, it wasn't much of 38 00:02:51,450 --> 00:02:54,450 Speaker 3: a mystery what might have happened to people. It wouldn't 39 00:02:54,490 --> 00:02:57,710 Speaker 3: be thousands of bodies, but thousands of body parts. 40 00:02:58,790 --> 00:03:00,130 Speaker 5: So he made a promise. 41 00:03:00,890 --> 00:03:05,550 Speaker 2: Charles Hirsch, the medical examiner, says we will never rest 42 00:03:05,630 --> 00:03:08,690 Speaker 2: until all remains are identified. 43 00:03:08,710 --> 00:03:12,540 Speaker 3: This is Jay Aronson, a professor at Carnegie Mellon University. 44 00:03:13,270 --> 00:03:15,850 Speaker 3: He wrote a book called Who Owns the Dead? The 45 00:03:15,890 --> 00:03:18,210 Speaker 3: Science and Politics of Death at Ground Zero. 46 00:03:19,210 --> 00:03:23,540 Speaker 2: These kinds of issues are a daily occurrence for people 47 00:03:23,580 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 2: in war zones. I wanted to kind of bring that 48 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 2: home to Americans. I wanted Americans to understand what people 49 00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:34,210 Speaker 2: in other parts of the world go through on a 50 00:03:34,430 --> 00:03:37,410 Speaker 2: regular basis, particularly in conflict zones. 51 00:03:39,050 --> 00:03:41,650 Speaker 3: 9-11 was the first time in modern history that Americans 52 00:03:41,690 --> 00:03:43,930 Speaker 3: were dealing with this scale of dismemberment on U.S. 53 00:03:43,950 --> 00:03:44,270 Speaker 6: Soil. 54 00:03:45,210 --> 00:03:46,910 Speaker 5: And right then, DNA. 55 00:03:46,550 --> 00:03:49,210 Speaker 3: Technology had evolved to be able to identify the dead 56 00:03:49,630 --> 00:03:51,210 Speaker 3: in a way that was never possible before. 57 00:03:53,990 --> 00:03:57,850 Speaker 2: Really in the context of the Balkan Wars, scientists needed 58 00:03:57,870 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: to develop ways of dealing with decayed and degraded bone 59 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: and tissue to match very degraded DNA samples to family samples. 60 00:04:07,340 --> 00:04:11,620 Speaker 2: And so that That early work was really coming to 61 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,100 Speaker 2: fruition right when 9-11 happened. 62 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,410 Speaker 3: This meant, on the one hand, that there was a 63 00:04:17,450 --> 00:04:20,570 Speaker 3: chance that anything with a trace of the victims could 64 00:04:20,610 --> 00:04:24,570 Speaker 3: potentially be identified for families. But it also meant that 65 00:04:24,589 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 3: the promise Charles Hirsch made to identify every remain found 66 00:04:28,980 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 3: and not to rest until they did would lead to 67 00:04:31,580 --> 00:04:33,219 Speaker 3: big expectations from the public. 68 00:04:37,180 --> 00:04:40,990 Speaker 2: That I think affirms the view in some families' minds 69 00:04:41,050 --> 00:04:44,370 Speaker 2: that all of the remains are sacred, that the goal 70 00:04:44,430 --> 00:04:48,210 Speaker 2: isn't just to positively identify in a forensic sense the 71 00:04:48,810 --> 00:04:51,450 Speaker 2: presence of a particular individual at the site at the 72 00:04:51,510 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: time of the attacks, but that there was something sacred 73 00:04:54,900 --> 00:05:01,140 Speaker 2: about each and every bit of their body, and that 74 00:05:01,580 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: all of the bits, all of the pieces that could 75 00:05:04,260 --> 00:05:07,849 Speaker 2: be associated with a particular person should be returned to 76 00:05:07,890 --> 00:05:10,210 Speaker 2: that family or should be handled in a particular way. 77 00:05:11,330 --> 00:05:13,690 Speaker 3: There were rumors in those first few days that tens 78 00:05:13,750 --> 00:05:17,060 Speaker 3: of thousands of people might be missing or dead. Up 79 00:05:17,130 --> 00:05:20,460 Speaker 3: to 200,000 people visited the World Trade Center complex. 80 00:05:20,060 --> 00:05:22,580 Speaker 5: Each day, and 50,000 people worked there. 81 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,220 Speaker 3: Matthew Horning worked as a database administrator on the 95th 82 00:05:28,260 --> 00:05:31,350 Speaker 3: floor of the North Tower. He was 26 years old. 83 00:05:32,990 --> 00:05:34,990 Speaker 3: On a hot July day, I drove out to New 84 00:05:35,030 --> 00:05:36,450 Speaker 3: Jersey to speak with his parents. 85 00:05:37,340 --> 00:05:37,860 Speaker 5: Hello. 86 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:38,940 Speaker 7: How are you? 87 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:39,659 Speaker 6: I am. 88 00:05:39,700 --> 00:05:40,460 Speaker 5: Nice to meet you. 89 00:05:41,230 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 7: Thanks for having me. 90 00:05:42,230 --> 00:05:45,710 Speaker 3: His mother, Diane, and I settled onto the couch. His father, Kurt, 91 00:05:45,790 --> 00:05:48,650 Speaker 3: showed me a picture of him. Matthew had light brown 92 00:05:48,690 --> 00:05:49,690 Speaker 3: hair and a goatee. 93 00:05:50,150 --> 00:05:51,150 Speaker 2: This is why I wear it all. 94 00:05:52,010 --> 00:05:53,170 Speaker 7: That's a picture of my son. 95 00:05:53,730 --> 00:05:54,230 Speaker 5: In your wallet. 96 00:05:54,310 --> 00:05:55,089 Speaker 6: Yeah, in my wallet. 97 00:05:55,130 --> 00:05:56,190 Speaker 8: They carry it all the time. 98 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,620 Speaker 5: As Diane told me, Matthew was just getting started. 99 00:06:00,620 --> 00:06:02,219 Speaker 9: Matthew was. 100 00:06:05,620 --> 00:06:05,970 Speaker 2: I mean, he. 101 00:06:07,370 --> 00:06:11,510 Speaker 9: He was wonderful. He had great friends. He was good 102 00:06:11,630 --> 00:06:14,140 Speaker 9: to me. He was good to the family. He was 103 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 9: not flawless. But he didn't think of himself as anything 104 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:23,940 Speaker 9: super special. In fact, his email address was IamACog. Because 105 00:06:23,980 --> 00:06:28,409 Speaker 9: you would ask him, what's your job? He was in IT. 106 00:06:29,290 --> 00:06:31,270 Speaker 9: What do you do? He says, you know those little 107 00:06:31,330 --> 00:06:34,190 Speaker 9: pieces that if one kicks off the whole cog, the 108 00:06:34,230 --> 00:06:37,250 Speaker 9: wheel doesn't turn? I'm one of those. I'm a cog 109 00:06:37,290 --> 00:06:37,730 Speaker 9: in the wheel. 110 00:06:40,470 --> 00:06:43,190 Speaker 3: Diane said Matthew could be funny. He had just started 111 00:06:43,210 --> 00:06:45,349 Speaker 3: dating a nice girl who he hoped to marry someday. 112 00:06:46,250 --> 00:06:48,470 Speaker 3: He liked to play Dungeons and Dragons with his friends, 113 00:06:48,710 --> 00:06:50,980 Speaker 3: and he wanted to be a fantasy writer. He was 114 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,260 Speaker 3: signed up to take a writing class on September 12th. 115 00:06:54,260 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 3: He lived the way most guys in their late 20s do. 116 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,020 Speaker 9: As we used to say, he lived in a place 117 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,940 Speaker 9: that everybody used to want to move out of. And 118 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 9: his roommate, you'd go and you'd just go. Okay, is 119 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 9: this how I raised you? 120 00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:11,420 Speaker 3: Kurt and Diane Horning reminded me a lot of my 121 00:07:11,460 --> 00:07:14,110 Speaker 3: own parents. They live in the same house they raised 122 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,430 Speaker 3: their children in. They've been married for 56 years, and 123 00:07:17,450 --> 00:07:20,650 Speaker 3: they've lived here for 53 of those. They have another child, 124 00:07:20,890 --> 00:07:28,450 Speaker 3: a daughter, and grandkids now. In the corner of the room, 125 00:07:28,770 --> 00:07:32,230 Speaker 3: there's a makeshift memorial to Matthew. Diane took a wooden 126 00:07:32,250 --> 00:07:34,990 Speaker 3: bowl off of a bookcase and emptied it onto the couch. 127 00:07:36,210 --> 00:07:40,330 Speaker 9: This is his wallet. His wallet was, these are all 128 00:07:40,390 --> 00:07:46,980 Speaker 9: the things that were in his wallet. And when they 129 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,660 Speaker 9: found these things, they sealed them and put them, you know, 130 00:07:51,700 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 9: like they sealed. This was the money that was in 131 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,740 Speaker 9: his wallet, and it was sealed in this packaging. That 132 00:07:58,780 --> 00:07:59,940 Speaker 9: was found at Fresh Kills. 133 00:08:01,260 --> 00:08:04,590 Speaker 3: During the sorting operation at Fresh Kills, Victims' families could 134 00:08:04,610 --> 00:08:07,630 Speaker 3: schedule visits to see what was going on there. Diane 135 00:08:07,650 --> 00:08:11,090 Speaker 3: doesn't remember when exactly she first visited, but she remembers 136 00:08:11,130 --> 00:08:14,060 Speaker 3: what she saw. She showed me some pictures she took 137 00:08:14,250 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 3: on one of her trips. This looks like just a 138 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,540 Speaker 3: crack in the earth and some, like, grass with, like, 139 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 3: hay maybe? 140 00:08:22,540 --> 00:08:24,730 Speaker 9: Yep, that was something I put on top of it, 141 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 9: but you could see pieces of the fire hose. 142 00:08:28,660 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 5: Oh, wow, yeah, it's like a fire hose in the 143 00:08:30,540 --> 00:08:31,780 Speaker 5: dirt with some flowers on it. 144 00:08:31,980 --> 00:08:32,140 Speaker 7: Yep. 145 00:08:32,709 --> 00:08:37,910 Speaker 9: You could see pieces of the building. You could see this, 146 00:08:38,050 --> 00:08:42,500 Speaker 9: which was a huge piece of cloth. We found shoes. 147 00:08:44,199 --> 00:08:46,819 Speaker 9: They said everything to a quarter of an inch has 148 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:53,059 Speaker 9: been sifted out. They did not sift down to a quarter. 149 00:08:53,130 --> 00:08:53,749 Speaker 9: They lied. 150 00:08:55,270 --> 00:08:56,250 Speaker 5: Diane was shocked. 151 00:08:57,250 --> 00:08:59,489 Speaker 3: Fresh Kills was not supposed to look like this. 152 00:09:00,689 --> 00:09:02,069 Speaker 5: Something didn't seem right to her. 153 00:09:03,859 --> 00:09:06,059 Speaker 3: This was the beginning of a fight for the Hornings, 154 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:11,179 Speaker 3: and other families too, over what exactly Charles Hirsch's promise meant, 155 00:09:12,239 --> 00:09:25,749 Speaker 3: and where the remains of the dead should go. Dennis 156 00:09:25,790 --> 00:09:29,410 Speaker 3: Diggins was the superintendent of the Fresh Kills landfill. He 157 00:09:29,449 --> 00:09:32,429 Speaker 3: was in charge of overseeing its closure, and then its reopening. 158 00:09:33,099 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 3: in the early morning hours of September. 159 00:09:35,179 --> 00:09:37,630 Speaker 5: 12, 2001. 160 00:09:37,630 --> 00:09:40,590 Speaker 6: So we got the first load out to the Frescoes, 161 00:09:40,630 --> 00:09:45,709 Speaker 6: I guess around 2 o'clock in the morning. And then 162 00:09:45,750 --> 00:09:50,260 Speaker 6: I just shot home, and I look like somebody dumped 163 00:09:50,319 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 6: a load of saccharine on my head. So I actually 164 00:09:53,739 --> 00:09:58,300 Speaker 6: got undressed in the garage and ran into the shower. 165 00:09:59,239 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 6: And then I was back at Frescoes the next morning 166 00:10:01,540 --> 00:10:02,409 Speaker 6: by 7 o'clock. 167 00:10:03,359 --> 00:10:06,620 Speaker 3: Diggins helped manage the cleanup for the sanitation department. City 168 00:10:06,660 --> 00:10:08,949 Speaker 3: officials started meeting at a school down the street from 169 00:10:08,989 --> 00:10:12,019 Speaker 3: Ground Zero. It became the de facto command center. 170 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,119 Speaker 6: You went in and you saw all these top engineers 171 00:10:17,140 --> 00:10:21,019 Speaker 6: from all over the city sitting on these little seats. 172 00:10:22,699 --> 00:10:27,780 Speaker 6: They were like kindergarten seats. And you knew once those 173 00:10:27,859 --> 00:10:30,829 Speaker 6: egos were checked and sitting there, you knew we were 174 00:10:30,849 --> 00:10:33,729 Speaker 6: going to get through this. Uh, but it was still 175 00:10:33,750 --> 00:10:34,989 Speaker 6: a daunting experience. 176 00:10:37,750 --> 00:10:41,390 Speaker 3: The world's largest garbage dump was now an active crime scene. 177 00:10:42,309 --> 00:10:44,849 Speaker 3: The sorting and searching operation was all going to take 178 00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:46,139 Speaker 3: place at Fresh Kills. 179 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,139 Speaker 6: Which really made the most sense because Fresh Kills is a, uh, 180 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,250 Speaker 6: it's a city-owned facility. It's secured, it's fenced in, uh, 181 00:10:57,859 --> 00:10:59,949 Speaker 6: It's a marina loading facility, so if you want to 182 00:10:59,989 --> 00:11:04,030 Speaker 6: barge material there, you can barge material. And again, we 183 00:11:04,050 --> 00:11:08,370 Speaker 6: had 170 acres of flat plateau to work off of. 184 00:11:09,689 --> 00:11:11,980 Speaker 3: At first, they were sorting through the material by hand, 185 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:13,379 Speaker 3: with shovels and rakes. 186 00:11:14,059 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 5: And by the way, someone I spoke to for. 187 00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:18,479 Speaker 3: This story made clear that material was the best word 188 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:18,879 Speaker 3: to use. 189 00:11:19,540 --> 00:11:21,290 Speaker 5: Not debris, the word I'd been using. 190 00:11:22,410 --> 00:11:25,309 Speaker 3: Eventually, they brought in these sifting machines— which could take 191 00:11:25,329 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 3: the material and separate it out through screens to pieces 192 00:11:28,660 --> 00:11:31,420 Speaker 3: that were a quarter of an inch. That's about half 193 00:11:31,479 --> 00:11:34,660 Speaker 3: the size of your thumbnail. Everything else that passed through 194 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,020 Speaker 3: was considered inconsequential dirt and dust. 195 00:11:37,540 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 5: Leftovers. 196 00:11:39,199 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 3: Whenever human remains were found, and they were found often 197 00:11:42,079 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 3: in those first few months, they were immediately sent to 198 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 3: the office of the chief medical examiner. 199 00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 5: They found lots of personal items too. Wallets, ID cards, watches. 200 00:11:52,510 --> 00:11:54,370 Speaker 6: The men and women who worked in press kills were 201 00:11:54,390 --> 00:11:57,949 Speaker 6: never trained for anything like this. Tractor operators who were 202 00:11:58,050 --> 00:12:01,129 Speaker 6: moving material around in the sorting fields, I mean, they 203 00:12:01,170 --> 00:12:06,290 Speaker 6: saw human remains on a daily basis. And you would 204 00:12:06,309 --> 00:12:08,850 Speaker 6: see it as you were walking by. They would walk 205 00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:12,209 Speaker 6: by with a pail, and you knew what was inside. 206 00:12:12,250 --> 00:12:16,189 Speaker 6: But I think everybody stepped up and did what they 207 00:12:16,209 --> 00:12:18,349 Speaker 6: had to do and treated it with the utmost respect. 208 00:12:21,309 --> 00:12:23,770 Speaker 5: There were certain kinks to work out in the searching process. 209 00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:26,630 Speaker 3: One of them was getting the speed of the sifters right, 210 00:12:26,969 --> 00:12:29,329 Speaker 3: so that people could catch things without getting motion sick. 211 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 3: Another was accounting for the fact that people were working 212 00:12:32,219 --> 00:12:35,300 Speaker 3: around the clock, 24-7. It didn't take a day off 213 00:12:35,339 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 3: until Thanksgiving of that year. And then there were the seagulls. 214 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,130 Speaker 3: An NYPD official said they knew which piles of material 215 00:12:43,589 --> 00:12:46,910 Speaker 3: had lots of human remains, because seagulls would circle above, 216 00:12:47,689 --> 00:12:51,159 Speaker 3: and they'd have to fight them off. By July of 2002, 217 00:12:51,140 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 3: the city thought the operation at Fresh Kills was finished. 218 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 3: It ended ahead of schedule and under budget, rare for 219 00:12:58,699 --> 00:13:03,069 Speaker 3: a government project. All told, they sorted about 1.5 million 220 00:13:03,109 --> 00:13:07,170 Speaker 3: tons of material from ground zero. That's about 600 Olympic 221 00:13:07,189 --> 00:13:11,010 Speaker 3: swimming pools worth of stuff. But then there's this fact 222 00:13:11,130 --> 00:13:13,449 Speaker 3: of the fines. What are the fines? 223 00:13:15,380 --> 00:13:16,179 Speaker 6: What are the fines? 224 00:13:16,199 --> 00:13:16,540 Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 225 00:13:17,380 --> 00:13:20,699 Speaker 6: The fines were the material that came through the sifter. 226 00:13:21,780 --> 00:13:23,599 Speaker 6: After it was searched out to a quarter of an inch, 227 00:13:23,660 --> 00:13:29,059 Speaker 6: those fines were then taken. Everything that was landfilled was 228 00:13:29,140 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 6: put into an area of about 45 acres on the 229 00:13:33,020 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 6: western side of the landfill. So that it was determined 230 00:13:37,859 --> 00:13:39,819 Speaker 6: that at the end of the day, we would be 231 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 6: able to cordon off this area that was all World 232 00:13:43,339 --> 00:13:44,300 Speaker 6: Trade Center material. 233 00:13:44,319 --> 00:13:46,179 Speaker 5: The fines. 234 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:53,470 Speaker 3: F-I-N-E-S. Unidentified dirt and dust. The last stuff to be 235 00:13:53,510 --> 00:13:58,530 Speaker 3: left at Fresh Kills. Not garbage, not debris, but nothing 236 00:13:58,569 --> 00:14:00,709 Speaker 3: to be salvaged, at least from the city's point of view. 237 00:14:02,510 --> 00:14:04,609 Speaker 3: Of course, not everyone saw it that way. 238 00:14:05,829 --> 00:14:09,780 Speaker 9: They treated my son like garbage. This was the largest 239 00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 9: garbage dump that had been recently closed. So while the 240 00:14:14,579 --> 00:14:19,899 Speaker 9: people who killed my son I have certainly an animosity 241 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:25,150 Speaker 9: for them. I have a huge animosity for the people 242 00:14:25,170 --> 00:14:30,890 Speaker 9: who were running New York and running our federal government also, 243 00:14:32,270 --> 00:14:35,750 Speaker 9: who allowed my son to be put in a garbage dump. 244 00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 9: Now we've got to do this fast, clean it up, 245 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 9: and get it out of our sight. Out of sight, 246 00:14:42,739 --> 00:14:43,460 Speaker 9: out of mind. 247 00:14:44,140 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 8: Out of mind. 248 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,639 Speaker 3: When I went to visit the Hornings in New Jersey, 249 00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: the first thing I noticed was a bumper sticker on 250 00:14:51,739 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 3: their car out front. 251 00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:54,740 Speaker 5: I had Diane read me what it said. 252 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,140 Speaker 9: The Fresh Kills garbage dump is no resting place for 253 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 9: the WTC 9-11 victims. We need your help. 254 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,229 Speaker 3: Before Matthew was killed, Diane said she was not an organizer, 255 00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:10,350 Speaker 3: not especially political. But in the face of insurmountable grief 256 00:15:10,690 --> 00:15:13,830 Speaker 3: over losing her son in a terrorist attack, she decided 257 00:15:13,850 --> 00:15:15,489 Speaker 3: to fight the only people she really could. 258 00:15:16,340 --> 00:15:21,300 Speaker 5: The city of New York. The Hornings had one demand. 259 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,060 Speaker 3: Do not leave the remains of our son in the 260 00:15:24,100 --> 00:15:27,739 Speaker 3: Fresh Kills garbage dump. From their kitchen table, the Hornings 261 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 3: started a group called WTC Families for a Proper Burial 262 00:15:31,820 --> 00:15:34,830 Speaker 3: with others who had lost loved ones. They were fighting 263 00:15:34,870 --> 00:15:37,609 Speaker 3: to have the finds, that big pile of dust left 264 00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:40,830 Speaker 3: over from the sorting operation, moved out of the landfill 265 00:15:41,090 --> 00:15:44,409 Speaker 3: and into a more dignified place. The group met every 266 00:15:44,450 --> 00:15:47,610 Speaker 3: month at the Union Library in New Jersey. They attended 267 00:15:47,690 --> 00:15:50,109 Speaker 3: public planning meetings and protested at others. 268 00:15:51,229 --> 00:15:55,570 Speaker 9: So I became the spokesperson because I wasn't afraid to speak. 269 00:15:56,470 --> 00:15:58,110 Speaker 9: So you could say, well, we're going to meet the mayor. 270 00:15:58,130 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 9: I don't care. You know, that's okay. I'll talk to anybody. 271 00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:04,860 Speaker 5: And they did meet the mayor. 272 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,259 Speaker 3: Kurt and Diane told me they had a private, one-on-one 273 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 3: meeting with Mayor Bloomberg. 274 00:16:10,540 --> 00:16:12,300 Speaker 9: He was on his way to a basketball game, so 275 00:16:12,340 --> 00:16:18,430 Speaker 9: we had to make it fast. And he said, well, 276 00:16:18,510 --> 00:16:21,590 Speaker 9: I'm giving my body to science, so burial doesn't matter 277 00:16:21,630 --> 00:16:26,530 Speaker 9: to me. We said, we think that's great. That's your choice. 278 00:16:27,210 --> 00:16:29,930 Speaker 9: But we need a choice, too. And our choice is 279 00:16:29,989 --> 00:16:31,020 Speaker 9: to bury our children. 280 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,260 Speaker 3: On May 30, 2002, a ceremony was held at Ground Zero, 281 00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:40,860 Speaker 3: marking the end of the recovery effort there. But then, 282 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:45,210 Speaker 3: a couple years later, during a construction project, additional human 283 00:16:45,250 --> 00:16:48,869 Speaker 3: remains were found across the street from the towers on 284 00:16:48,910 --> 00:16:51,650 Speaker 3: the roof of the Deutsche Bank building. This kicked off 285 00:16:51,729 --> 00:16:54,409 Speaker 3: a new effort, which led to the discovery of over 286 00:16:54,450 --> 00:16:58,609 Speaker 3: a thousand bone fragments, human tissue, and other remains over 287 00:16:58,630 --> 00:17:02,550 Speaker 3: the next few years. Some were discovered by accident, like 288 00:17:02,590 --> 00:17:05,450 Speaker 3: when Con Ed workers were digging in a manhole. It 289 00:17:05,490 --> 00:17:09,210 Speaker 3: was clear that certain areas had been missed. The WTC 290 00:17:09,230 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 3: families group thought there was a chance that things might 291 00:17:11,620 --> 00:17:15,250 Speaker 3: have been missed at Fresh Kills, too. After all, Diane 292 00:17:15,270 --> 00:17:17,830 Speaker 3: had taken those pictures of stuff larger than a quarter 293 00:17:17,850 --> 00:17:22,260 Speaker 3: of an inch, like the fire hose. In 2002, a 294 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,220 Speaker 3: bill was introduced in the New Jersey legislature that would 295 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 3: have required officials to remove the fines from Fresh Kills 296 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 3: and place them into containers to be stored at Ground Zero. 297 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,990 Speaker 5: The bill never really went anywhere. The fines were determined 298 00:17:36,090 --> 00:17:37,250 Speaker 5: to be somewhere between 360,000 and 480,000 tons. 299 00:17:41,730 --> 00:17:44,450 Speaker 3: If you picture it, that's about one football field in length, 300 00:17:45,010 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 3: piled 200 feet high. Promises were made to the families 301 00:17:49,180 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 3: by city officials, saying that the fines would be dealt 302 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 3: with somehow, that they wouldn't be forgotten. But those well-intentioned 303 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 3: promises sent the Hornings spinning in circles. 304 00:17:59,420 --> 00:18:03,830 Speaker 9: They sent us to the coroner's office. He was a 305 00:18:03,860 --> 00:18:06,530 Speaker 9: wonderful man, by the way. But the person we had 306 00:18:06,570 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 9: to deal with was Barbara Butcher. And then they send 307 00:18:10,180 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 9: us to— Wait, I'm sorry, that was her name? 308 00:18:11,740 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 2: Her name. 309 00:18:12,820 --> 00:18:14,930 Speaker 9: And then we go to Fresh Kills and we deal 310 00:18:14,970 --> 00:18:18,710 Speaker 9: with Dennis Diggins. And there were other names like that. 311 00:18:18,750 --> 00:18:23,610 Speaker 9: We're going, what is going on here? We felt like 312 00:18:23,650 --> 00:18:27,590 Speaker 9: we were in a Dickens novel. We really did. And 313 00:18:28,530 --> 00:18:31,900 Speaker 9: if we didn't laugh, we cried. We laughed a lot. 314 00:18:32,540 --> 00:18:33,380 Speaker 9: We cried a lot. 315 00:18:34,580 --> 00:18:37,990 Speaker 3: Dennis Diggins, the person in charge at Fresh Kills— remembers 316 00:18:38,030 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 3: the last meeting he had with the Hornings in his trailer. 317 00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:41,940 Speaker 5: It didn't go so well. 318 00:18:43,220 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 6: At one point in one of the meetings, he says, well, 319 00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:50,420 Speaker 6: who ultimately told you to come and bring this material 320 00:18:50,460 --> 00:18:54,150 Speaker 6: to Fresh Kells? So I said, well, it was determined 321 00:18:54,190 --> 00:18:57,530 Speaker 6: by the mayor and the Office of Emergency Management determined 322 00:18:57,550 --> 00:19:01,510 Speaker 6: that it should come here. So he said, so you 323 00:19:01,550 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 6: just blindly followed orders like Nazis? You just followed orders? 324 00:19:06,220 --> 00:19:08,740 Speaker 6: And at that point, I just said, listen, this meeting's over. 325 00:19:08,820 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 6: If you're going to equate the work that we're doing 326 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 6: here to Nazi Germany, I'm done. I'm not talking to 327 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:16,220 Speaker 6: you people anymore. 328 00:19:18,830 --> 00:19:21,470 Speaker 3: The Hornings got some politicians to sign letters of support 329 00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:22,109 Speaker 3: for their cause. 330 00:19:23,150 --> 00:19:24,430 Speaker 5: Plans were starting to be made. 331 00:19:24,290 --> 00:19:26,650 Speaker 3: For what the memorial would be, and the city held 332 00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:29,090 Speaker 3: sessions for the public to attend and share their input. 333 00:19:30,170 --> 00:19:33,620 Speaker 3: Diane wanted to make one thing clear. A landfill could 334 00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:35,180 Speaker 3: never be a memorial in her eyes. 335 00:19:36,370 --> 00:19:39,590 Speaker 9: I remember going to one of these symposiums, and I 336 00:19:40,110 --> 00:19:42,810 Speaker 9: took a box, and I put garbage in the box, 337 00:19:43,370 --> 00:19:46,190 Speaker 9: and then I gift-wrapped it. That old pretty bow and whatever. 338 00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:49,550 Speaker 9: And then I opened it, and I said, I put 339 00:19:49,570 --> 00:19:51,670 Speaker 9: it in a pretty box, but it's still garbage. 340 00:19:53,150 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 5: Soon, a judge would weigh in on this fight. That's 341 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:56,620 Speaker 5: after the break. 342 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 3: Around the middle of the 4th century BC, the dog 343 00:20:04,540 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: philosopher Diogenes was chatting with friends about what should be 344 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,860 Speaker 3: done with his body after he died. Here's cultural historian 345 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 3: Thomas Lequeur. 346 00:20:12,220 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 8: You know, he's called the dog philosopher because dogs live naturally. Diogenes' 347 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,260 Speaker 8: view of dogs, well, you know, they do all this 348 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:21,859 Speaker 8: stuff in public that I'd like to do in public. 349 00:20:22,780 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 8: He was sort of famous in antiquity as being sort 350 00:20:25,340 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 8: of a truth-telling street person. 351 00:20:28,420 --> 00:20:30,690 Speaker 5: Lequeur is author of the book The Work of the Dead. 352 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 3: It begins with the story of Diogenes, a man who 353 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,710 Speaker 3: lived in a barrel on the street and was opposed 354 00:20:36,750 --> 00:20:39,270 Speaker 3: to all that was decent. He thought that humans should 355 00:20:39,310 --> 00:20:42,050 Speaker 3: be able to masturbate and defecate in public the same 356 00:20:42,110 --> 00:20:45,670 Speaker 3: way we eat in public. And so, when Diogenes was 357 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 3: talking about what should happen to him after he died, 358 00:20:48,460 --> 00:20:50,020 Speaker 3: he said that he'd like to be thrown over the 359 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 3: city walls and disposed of like debris. I'm paraphrasing here, 360 00:20:54,500 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 3: but the story goes that his friends pleaded with him, 361 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 3: saying animals would dismember his body. Diogenes said, okay, then 362 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:02,540 Speaker 3: put a stick in my hand so that I can 363 00:21:02,580 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 3: fight them off. His friends said, well, you wouldn't be 364 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,460 Speaker 3: able to use the stick because you'd be dead. 365 00:21:08,380 --> 00:21:10,740 Speaker 5: To which Diogenes replied, exactly. 366 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:17,260 Speaker 8: Diogenes is... is right in that a human body is 367 00:21:17,980 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 8: in no material way different from an animal body, which 368 00:21:21,940 --> 00:21:24,750 Speaker 8: get eaten by vultures and dealt with in the ordinary 369 00:21:24,820 --> 00:21:29,550 Speaker 8: course of ecology. And he's also right that he won't 370 00:21:29,710 --> 00:21:33,370 Speaker 8: notice it. So it's nothing to him what happens to 371 00:21:33,450 --> 00:21:33,890 Speaker 8: his body. 372 00:21:34,850 --> 00:21:36,850 Speaker 5: But of course, Diogenes is very wrong. 373 00:21:37,650 --> 00:21:40,450 Speaker 3: For thousands of years before and for thousands of years after, 374 00:21:41,010 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 3: humanity has rejected his logical proposition. Although we know we 375 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,580 Speaker 3: can't use a stick to fight off vultures when we die, 376 00:21:48,250 --> 00:21:50,450 Speaker 3: most people would never throw someone out like trash. 377 00:21:51,550 --> 00:21:53,850 Speaker 8: There are only four ways you could get rid of 378 00:21:53,870 --> 00:21:57,870 Speaker 8: the dead, right? Air, fire, water, and earth. So you 379 00:21:57,890 --> 00:22:00,030 Speaker 8: bury them in the earth, you burn them with fire, 380 00:22:00,050 --> 00:22:02,370 Speaker 8: you throw them in water, or you leave them in 381 00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:05,670 Speaker 8: the air. So all of these have been done. 382 00:22:06,630 --> 00:22:09,750 Speaker 3: The place of the dead has always mattered. Starting in 383 00:22:09,770 --> 00:22:12,130 Speaker 3: the 8th century, to be a church was to have 384 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 3: the body of a martyr. 385 00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:14,350 Speaker 5: Or a relic from one. 386 00:22:15,370 --> 00:22:17,830 Speaker 3: And the worst fate imaginable for the faithful was to 387 00:22:17,870 --> 00:22:21,100 Speaker 3: not be buried near them in the churchyard. Then, of course, 388 00:22:21,140 --> 00:22:26,180 Speaker 3: there's the public cemetery, cremation, open caskets, scattering ashes in 389 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:26,540 Speaker 3: the river. 390 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,940 Speaker 8: The general point is that no one throws them away. 391 00:22:33,060 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 3: To Diane and Kurt Horning, it seemed like the city 392 00:22:35,660 --> 00:22:38,930 Speaker 3: was doing just that, throwing away the remains of their 393 00:22:38,970 --> 00:22:44,540 Speaker 3: son in a landfill. In the best-case scenario, WTC families 394 00:22:44,590 --> 00:22:47,660 Speaker 3: wanted the fines taken out of Fresh Kills, moved to 395 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 3: Ground Zero, and incorporated into the memorial there. If that 396 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 3: wasn't possible, WTC families had other suggestions. Governor's Island. Or 397 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,500 Speaker 3: maybe a section of Fresh Kills that was not on 398 00:22:58,540 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 3: top of garbage. In 2004, the city finally said outright, 399 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 3: the fines would not be moved from Fresh Kills. I 400 00:23:07,740 --> 00:23:11,900 Speaker 3: asked Dennis Diggins about this. To me, it seemed logistically challenging. 401 00:23:12,350 --> 00:23:14,250 Speaker 3: but not totally out of the question to move the 402 00:23:14,270 --> 00:23:14,990 Speaker 3: finds somewhere else. 403 00:23:15,850 --> 00:23:21,250 Speaker 7: Was it purely a logistical impossibility to put the finds 404 00:23:21,370 --> 00:23:24,310 Speaker 7: somewhere else, like to make a cemetery somewhere or to 405 00:23:24,730 --> 00:23:26,910 Speaker 7: put them in a place that was not Fresh Kills? 406 00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:29,170 Speaker 5: Like, why was that not possible? 407 00:23:30,650 --> 00:23:33,230 Speaker 6: Well, at the time, finds were just another product of 408 00:23:33,290 --> 00:23:39,330 Speaker 6: the material itself. There was never any thought that this 409 00:23:39,410 --> 00:23:43,990 Speaker 6: material should be brought somewhere else and treated somewhere else. 410 00:23:45,090 --> 00:23:47,110 Speaker 6: Just didn't enter into the equation. 411 00:23:47,590 --> 00:23:51,020 Speaker 3: Would the fines just look like a pile of dirt 412 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 3: to someone who didn't know what they were? Yep. After 413 00:23:58,180 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 3: years of meetings and sessions and bills that went nowhere, 414 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,830 Speaker 3: WTC families for a proper burial sued the city. They 415 00:24:05,850 --> 00:24:09,170 Speaker 3: hired legendary civil rights attorney Norman Siegel to represent them. 416 00:24:10,050 --> 00:24:13,710 Speaker 3: In August of 2005, they filed their two-count complaint, alleging 417 00:24:13,730 --> 00:24:16,810 Speaker 3: that leaving the fines and fresh kills violated their 14th 418 00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:20,660 Speaker 3: Amendment right to due process. They claim it also violated 419 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 3: New York burial laws, which state that family members have 420 00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 3: certain property rights when it comes to their dead. At 421 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 3: some point, the Hornings reached out to Charles Hirsch, the 422 00:24:31,180 --> 00:24:34,940 Speaker 3: chief medical examiner. They wanted information about what remains had 423 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,750 Speaker 3: been found and where. Hirsch sent Diane Horning a letter 424 00:24:38,790 --> 00:24:42,270 Speaker 3: in response. He wrote, But the problem was, none of 425 00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:45,580 Speaker 3: the plaintiffs could prove that the ashes of their loved one, specifically, 426 00:24:45,620 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 3: was mixed in with that dirt. Nearly three years after 427 00:24:48,140 --> 00:24:50,940 Speaker 3: litigation began, the judge in the case issued his decision. 428 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 3: He ruled that the plaintiffs lacked a constitutionally protected right 429 00:25:12,860 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 3: to what amounts to, quote, an unidentifiable. 430 00:25:15,580 --> 00:25:16,420 Speaker 5: Mass of dirt. 431 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,900 Speaker 3: He wrote, All human remains that could be identified were identified. 432 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:33,410 Speaker 3: Only dust remains. Almost 3,000 people died on September 11, 2001. 433 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:39,780 Speaker 3: Over 20,000 fragments of human remains were found. families didn't 434 00:25:39,810 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 3: just receive one notification that their loved one was among 435 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 3: the dead. Some of them received visit after visit, phone 436 00:25:46,820 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 3: call after phone call, each time a new body part 437 00:25:49,620 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 3: or piece of tissue was identified as a match. But 438 00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 3: there are still over a thousand people whose remains have 439 00:25:55,900 --> 00:26:01,540 Speaker 3: never been identified. Charles Hirsch passed away in 2016, but 440 00:26:01,580 --> 00:26:03,660 Speaker 3: the city is still looking for ways to match the 441 00:26:03,730 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 3: remains they keep to the dead. In 2025, forensic scientists 442 00:26:08,780 --> 00:26:13,940 Speaker 3: had a breakthrough and identified three new 9-11 victims. DNA 443 00:26:13,980 --> 00:26:18,260 Speaker 3: matching technology continues to get better. It's possible this process 444 00:26:18,380 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 3: will never end. Diane and Kurt Horning have received a 445 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:30,790 Speaker 3: few notifications over the years, small fragments of Matthew. They 446 00:26:30,810 --> 00:26:33,430 Speaker 3: buried what they were given, but pieces of their son 447 00:26:33,610 --> 00:26:37,540 Speaker 3: are not enough. Toward the end of our interview, I 448 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,100 Speaker 3: finally asked Diane a question I'd been wondering since I 449 00:26:40,140 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: walked in. 450 00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 5: I haven't asked about your pin. Tell me about your 451 00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:44,620 Speaker 5: pin you're wearing. 452 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,010 Speaker 9: We got these. Somebody wrote, and I wish I could remember. 453 00:26:48,470 --> 00:26:50,070 Speaker 3: It was a picture of the towers with a heart 454 00:26:50,110 --> 00:26:52,530 Speaker 3: in the background, the same image I'd seen on the 455 00:26:52,550 --> 00:26:53,930 Speaker 3: Hornings car when I was walking up. 456 00:26:55,250 --> 00:26:57,130 Speaker 5: I assumed she'd put it on because I was coming. 457 00:26:57,950 --> 00:26:59,950 Speaker 9: I swore I'd wear it every day until he was 458 00:27:00,650 --> 00:27:02,630 Speaker 9: out of the dump, and he's not out of the dump, 459 00:27:02,650 --> 00:27:03,330 Speaker 9: so I'm wearing it. 460 00:27:03,750 --> 00:27:04,550 Speaker 5: You wear it every day? 461 00:27:04,770 --> 00:27:06,790 Speaker 9: I wear it every day. My husband wears his every day, too. 462 00:27:09,860 --> 00:27:12,750 Speaker 3: The fines are still at Fresh Kills. The city has 463 00:27:12,810 --> 00:27:16,010 Speaker 3: already begun converting the whole place into a park, and 464 00:27:16,050 --> 00:27:18,470 Speaker 3: plans are in the works for a 9-11 memorial there. 465 00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:21,770 Speaker 5: The Hornings say they'll never go. 466 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,740 Speaker 3: The story began with a very well-meaning promise, a commitment 467 00:27:32,780 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 3: to honoring what remained after a massive tragedy, a promise 468 00:27:37,060 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 3: that Charles Hirsch hoped could give comfort to thousands of 469 00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 3: families who were never going to see the person they 470 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,380 Speaker 3: loved again. But it was always going to be an 471 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,780 Speaker 3: impossible promise to fulfill. And I think the reason why 472 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 3: can be found in a personal story the cultural historian 473 00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:55,940 Speaker 3: Thomas Lequeur told me about his father, his grandfather, and 474 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 3: maybe himself, too. Lequeur's father, a Jew, had to flee 475 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 3: Germany in the 1940s. He and his family settled in Virginia. 476 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,610 Speaker 3: He was a doctor, a pathologist. His father thought of 477 00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 3: the dead how any pathologist would, in a detached, medical way. 478 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,540 Speaker 3: When he died, he was cremated, and his ashes were 479 00:28:15,580 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 3: spread in a flowerbed next to a lake in Virginia. 480 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 3: Ten years later, Lequeur was invited to give a talk 481 00:28:21,180 --> 00:28:24,190 Speaker 3: in Germany, and his wife suggested that maybe he should 482 00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:26,870 Speaker 3: take some of his father's ashes with him and spread 483 00:28:26,890 --> 00:28:28,710 Speaker 3: them over his grandfather's grave in Hamburg. 484 00:28:29,770 --> 00:28:33,210 Speaker 5: The two were very close, both doctors. One problem. 485 00:28:34,110 --> 00:28:36,590 Speaker 8: Literally, I had no ashes. What I had was the flowerbed. 486 00:28:38,910 --> 00:28:42,310 Speaker 8: which had been fertilizing over the years. So there were 487 00:28:42,350 --> 00:28:44,850 Speaker 8: his ashes, the phosphorus, the nitrogen, and so forth. But 488 00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:47,870 Speaker 8: there was also the stuff he'd buy at Miracle-Gro or 489 00:28:47,890 --> 00:28:51,910 Speaker 8: whatever in this bed. I realized that my father would 490 00:28:51,930 --> 00:28:54,850 Speaker 8: have said this was complete nonsense. My father was a 491 00:28:55,510 --> 00:28:56,190 Speaker 8: man of science. 492 00:28:57,170 --> 00:28:58,270 Speaker 5: But LeCoeur did it anyway. 493 00:28:58,850 --> 00:29:01,770 Speaker 3: He traveled with a Ziploc baggie in his carry-on and 494 00:29:01,870 --> 00:29:03,930 Speaker 3: emptied it onto his grandfather's grave in Hamburg. 495 00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 8: And I felt this was actually kind of an emotional 496 00:29:06,500 --> 00:29:11,820 Speaker 8: experience meaningful experience. It felt like I was connecting them again. 497 00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:15,460 Speaker 8: I felt, you know, I brought them together, you know, and, 498 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,580 Speaker 8: but if you ask me, what was me, did I 499 00:29:18,620 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 8: think I'm, if you ask me, did you take your 500 00:29:20,820 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 8: dad's ashes and put them on your grandfather's grave? Let's 501 00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:24,550 Speaker 8: be kidding. 502 00:29:28,990 --> 00:29:32,130 Speaker 3: Humans care for the dead. It's what we do, even 503 00:29:32,170 --> 00:29:36,010 Speaker 3: though we know better. Laqueur borrows a quote from the 504 00:29:36,050 --> 00:29:39,820 Speaker 3: art critic, David Hickey. calling it a magic we can 505 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:40,260 Speaker 3: believe in. 506 00:29:40,260 --> 00:29:44,350 Speaker 8: In other words, I'm a modern person. I don't believe 507 00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:48,110 Speaker 8: that any fragment of anyone has any particular relevance. My 508 00:29:48,150 --> 00:29:51,100 Speaker 8: father's ashes differ in no way from the fertilizer we 509 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 8: put in, but I. 510 00:29:52,380 --> 00:29:53,060 Speaker 2: Act as if I do. 511 00:29:54,780 --> 00:29:59,500 Speaker 3: At a certain point, things become something else. Alive, dead, 512 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:07,570 Speaker 3: a body, dust, two buildings, rubble, ashes, miracle grow, a 513 00:30:07,610 --> 00:30:09,250 Speaker 3: garbage dump, a park. 514 00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:14,510 Speaker 5: But there's always this period in between. The transition. When 515 00:30:14,550 --> 00:30:16,090 Speaker 5: two things are true at once. 516 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,140 Speaker 3: Provisionist History is produced by me, Lucy Sullivan, with Ben 517 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 3: Natafafri and Nina Bird Lawrence. Our editor is Karen Shikurji. 518 00:30:33,260 --> 00:30:37,420 Speaker 3: Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Fact-checking by Sam Russick. 519 00:30:38,260 --> 00:30:43,210 Speaker 3: Original music by Luis Guerra and Stellwagen Symphonette. Mastering by 520 00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:48,450 Speaker 3: Marcelo de Oliveira. Special thanks to Robin Nagel, Marty Ballou, 521 00:30:48,910 --> 00:30:52,490 Speaker 3: and Norman Siegel. And thanks, of course, to Malcolm Gladwell. 522 00:30:53,370 --> 00:30:54,110 Speaker 5: I'm Lucy Sullivan.