1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: Is it possible to be two different things at the 2 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: same time? 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 2: Can you like dogs and cats? 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: Can you be a horse and a giraffe at the 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: same time? 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 2: Can something taste salty and sweet? Can a dress be 7 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 2: black and blue and white and gold? 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: In today's podcast, we talk about the centuries old scientific 9 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: debate about light. 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: Is light a particle or a wave? 11 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: Or is it both? Hello, I'm Jorge and I'm Daniel. 12 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe. 13 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: In which we try to explain the whole universe and 14 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,119 Speaker 1: everything in it, including light. 15 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: Now, I'm a cartoonist. I draw something called PhD comics. 16 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: And I'm a particle physicist. During the day, I smash 17 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: particles together at the large Hadron Collider. 18 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, today on the program, we're going to talk 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: about the nature of light. 20 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: That's right. People have been arguing for centuries what is light? 21 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 1: Is it made out of particles? Is it made out 22 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: of waves? It's something else? Is it tiny little puppies 23 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: screaming through space? People have gone back and forth on 24 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: the issue, and today even the topic is not yet 25 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: totally settled. So we're going to be taking you through 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: that history and breaking it down. 27 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: It's one of the most mind blowing questions in human 28 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 2: scientific history. 29 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: That's right, what is light made out of? So, as usual, 30 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: before we dig into it, we went out and we 31 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: asked people on the street. What do you think light 32 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: is made out of? What do people know about light? 33 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: Is light a particle or is it a wave? 34 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: Here's what people had to say. Do you think light 35 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: is made out of particles or waves or both or neither? Photons? Yeah? Photons? Yeah, 36 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: so you think light it's a particle. I think it's waves, 37 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: youth waves. Yeah, cool, it's both, I think because it 38 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: moves like a wave, but it also has properties of 39 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: a particle and there's nothing saying it can't people. Okay, light, 40 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: I think they're made of wavelength. 41 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: Yeah all right. Well it's interesting because I think all 42 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 2: of the answers are right. 43 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: Or none of them are or both. 44 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 45 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: Well, it seems like a lot of people reflected the 46 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: fact that there is a controversy like that. You know, 47 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: it's not really well described, but either those some people 48 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: went all in, you know, like it's a photon or 49 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: it's a wave, or it's a wave. 50 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: Length right, Yeah, that was my favorite one. 51 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: I want to be a wavelength. 52 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 2: Like I've heard of this word. It sounds really cool 53 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 2: and scientific. I'm just going to throw it up. 54 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: There, that's right. Yeah, maybe I get some points. We 55 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,119 Speaker 1: award no points to people, no points, that's right. There's 56 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: no price. Your price is you get to be on 57 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: our podcast and maybe we even make fun of you. Yeah. 58 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, I guess what you mean is nobody 59 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: sort of fell for the trap, right, Like nobody said, 60 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: oh of course it's a particle, or nobody said, oh 61 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 2: of course it's a wave. Most people sort of knew 62 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: that there's some sort of duality there, something weird going on. 63 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: That's right. That science is having some trouble, some difficulty 64 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: coming up with a way to describe what light is. 65 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: And that might seem surprising you because light is everywhere, right, 66 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: and it runs the universe. It's streaming through the Solar 67 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: system from the Sun, illuminating our lives, empowering everything on Earth. 68 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,119 Speaker 1: So you think this would be sort of a high 69 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: priority topic to figure out, like what is this stuff? 70 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: What is it made out of? 71 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, like, what are we paying you for, Daniel, 72 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: if not to figure these kinds of questions out. 73 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: I was just about to figure out what light was 74 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: when you called and said it's time to do this podcast. 75 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: Sorry, science was totally you're a train of thought there, 76 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: that's right. 77 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: Reflect on that for a minute. 78 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: Or but no, Yeah, I'm a California taxpayer. Part of 79 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: my salary goes to paying your salary, like you know, 80 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: one million of a percent. 81 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, so you're saying you did pay taxes 82 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: last year. 83 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: There you go again. 84 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: That's another topic. 85 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: Seekers on air, Daniel. Anyway, So that's an interesting question, 86 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: like is light a waver particle? And it's weird that 87 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 2: we don't know, But maybe let's break it down a 88 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 2: little bit. What is it? Like, what are we actually 89 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: talking about when we say that light could be a 90 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: particle or light could be a wave, like you know, 91 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: most people probably think of light as just like just 92 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: like brightness, right. 93 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. The thing to understand here is that we try 94 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: to describe light in terms of things we know, and 95 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: that's what science is. Right. You see something weird and 96 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: new and you wonder, oh, is it like this other 97 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: thing I know? So we've observed different kinds of phenomena 98 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: in the world, like you've seen waves, right, you go 99 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: to the beach, you see waves and water, you drop 100 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: a rock in a small puddle, you see waves. We 101 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: know what waves are, and we see different phenomena. We 102 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: try to categorize them in terms of things we know, right, 103 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: So like when people were studying sound, they discovered, oh, 104 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: sound is actually a wave. You know, it's a compression 105 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: wave in the air. And that's cool because he says, oh, 106 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: I already know how the math for waves works. Right, 107 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: I've seen waves and water. I've seen waves and other stuff. 108 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: You can describe it with like equations, right, yeah, wavy equations. 109 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: That's right, very solid unwavy physics to describe waves. And 110 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: there's a lot of science that's gone into understanding waves. 111 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: So if you can cram it into that box and say, oh, 112 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 1: this is just another example of something we already know, 113 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: then you're taking a huge leap forward. Right. So that's 114 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: something people try to do, is say, like, look, can 115 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: we describe this in terms of other things we know? 116 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 2: So we need like, you know, we know about light, 117 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: but we want to know how it behaves and what 118 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: makes it work. 119 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and just on a more general level, you try 120 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: to see something new, try to describe in terms of 121 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: things you know, Like say you taste a new kind 122 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: of fruit and you'd be like, Oh, it's a little 123 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: bit like a cherry, and a little bit like an apple, 124 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 1: and a little bit like you know, it's got a 125 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: hint of smokiness to it or whatever. You know. 126 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 2: You're like, it's a chapel. 127 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: It's a chapel. How has nobody ever invented that? The 128 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: cherry apple chapel? Oh my gosh, somebody, if our lawyer 129 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: is listening, get on that right away. Copyright that idea. 130 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: I'll reserve ww dot chapel dot com. Up. 131 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: That's right. So that's the basic idea is we have 132 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: these things we've seen. You see something new, you don't 133 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: want to create a whole new category. You want to 134 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: fit into one of the existing categories. 135 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 2: So we sort of knew about light. It came from 136 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,119 Speaker 2: the sun. It you know, if you light a fire, 137 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: it spreads out into a room. And so we're like, 138 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 2: what's going on? Like what what best describes how this 139 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 2: light you know, comes from a source and bounces off 140 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: the walls and stuff. 141 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, that's the question. And so we'd seen things 142 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: like waves, So what do we mean when we say 143 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: a wave? Like how could a light be a wave? 144 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: Well, how can anything be a wave? 145 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: Yeah? How can anything be a wave? A wave is 146 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: a funny thing because it's not a thing itself. It's 147 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: a property of some medium. 148 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 2: Like it's the words like a ripple on something. 149 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Like if you do the wave at 150 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: a baseball game, you know, there's nothing to the wave itself. 151 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: It's just a bunch of people moving up and down 152 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: and waving their hands, right. 153 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 2: Or like a sound wave is just like air molecules 154 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: kind of bumping forward. 155 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, exactly. Or a wave in the ocean 156 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: is just it's an arrangement of the water, right, It's 157 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: a way the water gets compressed and then stretched out 158 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: and compressed and then gets stretched out. So that's an 159 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: important thing about a wave is that it moves in 160 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: this way through a medium. 161 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 2: M Okay, so that's a wave. It's like a propagation, 162 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: it's like a ripple through something. But then, so then 163 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: what what would you call a particle? A particle is 164 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: different than that. 165 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: A particle is different than that, and it's a totally 166 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: different kind of thing, you know, And to be a 167 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: particle physicist, it's kind of odd, but The concept of 168 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: a particle is not that really well defined, you know. 169 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: But when I think of a particle, I think of 170 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: taking matter and breaking it down to its smallest pieces. 171 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: If something's made out of particles, it means that at 172 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: its smallest level, it's made out of these little bits 173 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: that can't be chopped into smaller bits, and that they're localized. 174 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: They're like small and contained. Right. If you discover that 175 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: something is made of particles, you expect it to be 176 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: like mostly empty space, but with these little dots of matter, right. 177 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: Like you would take something and then you smash it 178 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: to bit and just keep smashing, and at some point 179 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 2: you're going to get to these little baby balls or 180 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 2: like little tiny pellets that you can't break down anymore. 181 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, It's like seeing a picture on your 182 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: computer screen and discovering it's made out of pixels, right, 183 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: and that those pixels are the basic elements and they 184 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: come together to make the whole picture. So figuring out 185 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: that something is made of particles means that there's made 186 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: out these these little bits that are not connected to 187 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: each other, right, they're separated. So a wave and a 188 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: particle in nature are totally different. Kinds of things. Right. Now, 189 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: water of course is made of particles, but can have 190 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: waves in it. 191 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: Right, But I think maybe what's important here is that, 192 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 2: you know, particles we tend to think of as little 193 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 2: tiny bits that can bounce around, right, and like go 194 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 2: in a street line and then hit something else and 195 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: then bounce back, or you know, kind of fly through 196 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: space right in a discrete little package exactly. 197 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: That's exactly the right way to say. It's a discrete 198 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: little package. Right. So things that are made of particles 199 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: we think of as being discrete little bits, and they 200 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: they're broken up into these little pieces, and you're right, 201 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: they move in straight lines. Right, Like you throw a rock, 202 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: you roll a smooth ball across the surface, you expect 203 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: it to move in a straight line. 204 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 2: So that's kind of what we mean by a wave 205 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 2: and a particle, that's right. 206 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 207 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 2: And so the question is like, is light a ripple 208 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 2: on a medium? Is that what light is? Or is 209 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 2: it like actual little things and move around in space? 210 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: Right? Does it have its own stuff to it? Right? 211 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: Or is it just a way something else moves right? 212 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: That's sort of another way to phrase the question. 213 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: Right, And those are two pretty different pictures. Is of reality, right, Yeah, 214 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: light could be little pellets flying around, or it could 215 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: be some sort of ripple on a medium. To us 216 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 2: in our intuitive sense, it couldn't be any more different, right. 217 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah. It's like you can't be a Democrat 218 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: and a Republican, you know, just you have to pick one, 219 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, if you vote, you can be or 220 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: you could be neither. I suppose you shouldn't be both though, Yeah, 221 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: that would be a violation of some election law not 222 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: recommended to violate elections, right, that's right. Yeah. So, speaking 223 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: of political shouting matches, this one, this historical scientific shouting match, 224 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: began all the way back with the Greeks, right, Democratus 225 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: he's the guy sort of the first atomist. He's the 226 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: first person to look at the world and to say, 227 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,839 Speaker 1: you know, maybe everything's made out of tiny little bits, 228 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: not just light, but also matter. And that was sort 229 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: of the birth of that idea that maybe everything around 230 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,479 Speaker 1: us that seems macroscopic is made out of tiny little things, 231 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: smaller than we can see. And you know, as usual, 232 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: when somebody comes up with a good idea, they overextended. 233 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: They're like, well, maybe if rocks were made out of stuff. 234 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: Then water is also made out of particles, and maybe 235 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: even light is made out of particles. You know, at 236 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: the time, seemed like a totally a crazy reach, And. 237 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 2: That makes sense, right, because light seems to go in 238 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 2: a straight line. It seems to bounce off of things. 239 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: So why couldn't light just be like little tiny little 240 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: pellets that bounce around the room and then eventually hit 241 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 2: your eye and then that's how you see something. 242 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly seems to have some of those particle 243 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: like properties, right, it moves in straight lines, it certainly 244 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: would be going really really fast. At the time, people 245 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: thought that light traveled instantly, right. They thought that light 246 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: instantaneously went from like the sun to the Earth, or 247 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: or if you started a fire, that the light would 248 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: immediately illuminate the room. Now, we of course know that 249 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: it just happens super duper crazy fast, too fast for 250 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: those folks to ever measure, so it's almost like it's instantaneous. 251 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: But they thought that these things just moved instantly through 252 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: space and filled up the room. Okay, and I want 253 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: to talk a little bit more about that, but first 254 00:11:58,559 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: a quick break. 255 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 2: So, initially we thought light was or the Greeks thought 256 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 2: that light was a. 257 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: Particle, right, And I think we have to qualify that 258 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: because it makes the Greeks sound really smart. Just come 259 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: up with this idea of atoms and all that stuff. 260 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: And you say this before you're really down into Greeks. 261 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: Well, I think people give the Greeks too much credit 262 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: for that, because, as I've probably said to you before, 263 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: the Greeks had lots and lots of ideas. You know, 264 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: they had like thousands of these ideas about how the 265 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: way the world works, and yeah, one of them was 266 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: close to true. But like, if we're going to do 267 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: some accounting, let's also remember the nine hundred and ninety 268 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: nine ones that were totally off base, you know, and 269 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: give them credit for those. 270 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, find that Greek who thought life was just little puppies, 271 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: and be like seeing you guys also thought they were puppies. 272 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: You can't be that. 273 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: Smart, that's right. But he's a cool idea. So give 274 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: them credit for having that idea. Know what they were 275 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: smoking when they came up with it, But I'd like 276 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: to figure out where to find some. And then it 277 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: was thousands of years later before people had another idea. 278 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: It was a Descartes, the guy who's famous for. You know, 279 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: I think therefore I am he thought about He was 280 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: one of the earliest scientists, not just philosopher, but a scientist, 281 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: back in the day when you know, science really was 282 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: part of philosophy, and he thought that light was waves. 283 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 2: What made him think it was waves? 284 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: You know, I don't think he had much justification for it. 285 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: This is back in the early days when science wasn't 286 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: really an empirical study where you didn't like go out 287 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: and do experiments to test your hypothesis. It just made 288 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: more sense to him for light to be like these 289 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: wavelike disturbances. 290 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 2: Right, which kind of makes sense, right, Like if you 291 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: have a speaker in a room emitting sound waves, it's 292 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 2: not that different from like a light bulb in the 293 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: middle of the room emitting light all around it. 294 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. And there's some things that light does that 295 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: don't really that don't really seem consistent with particles, you know, 296 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: like the way light bends through a lens, right, it's 297 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: called we call it in science, we call that refraction. 298 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: You know, with light changes from going through air to glass, 299 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: it bends in this weird way. That's something that's very 300 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,079 Speaker 1: common for waves, right. 301 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 2: And a particle wouldn't bend inside of a lens. 302 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: No, No, a particle that's definitely a wave like behavior. Yeah, oh, 303 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: not particle like behavior. And so Descartes saw that and 304 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: he's like, oh, you know, we have optics, we have 305 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: these lenses, so maybe light is a wave. But if 306 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: light is a wave, then it opens this other question. 307 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: What's doing the waving? Right? I mean with sound, you 308 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: know it's the air and the water waves. Obviously it's 309 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: the water. But if light is a wave, then what 310 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: is waving? 311 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: Meaning? Like, if light is a ripple, what is it a. 312 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: Ripple of that's right? Yeah, what's doing the rippling? Right? 313 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: If it's a wave, it has to be a wave 314 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: in something, because a wave is just a description of 315 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: some other form of matter rippling, right. 316 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: It couldn't just be like stuff that we can't see. 317 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you have to invent some stuff that 318 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: we can't see. Right. To explain light being a wave, 319 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: you have to invent this universe filled with stuff, or 320 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: there has to be that stuff between us and the 321 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: sun for example, right, which is a huge amount of 322 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: this new stuff you're inventing. And if you're looking at 323 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: the stars, there has to be that stuff between you 324 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: and the stars. Right, So now we're talking about billions 325 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: of miles of this new stuff, and Dick Cart, you know, 326 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: didn't know, so he just gave it a name. He's 327 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: called I don't even know how to pronounce it, but 328 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: he called it plenum. And he thought, well, there must 329 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: be if light is a wave, there must be some 330 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: stuff that's doing the waving, and we'll just give it 331 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: a name and maybe we'll be right, and then we'll 332 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: be famous forever. 333 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: Isn't it is that different than the ether? 334 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: It's similar in concept, right, It's a different idea, but 335 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: it's similar in concept that like, if light is a wave, 336 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: it must be waving through something, and we don't know 337 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: what it is, which is invents something to and give 338 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: it a name as a placeholder so when later people 339 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: do the hard work of actually discovering it, we'll still 340 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: get credit. 341 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: Okay, So it was a particle. Light was a particle, 342 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 2: then was a wave, and then what happened? 343 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: Well, then Newton came along, right, And Newton's a really 344 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: smart guy, and everybody knows that he's famous for thinking 345 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: about gravity, but he also like to think about optics 346 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: and lenses and he thought for sure that light was 347 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: a particle because he saw it moving in straight lines 348 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: and he saw distinct shadows. But you know, Newton also 349 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: did a lot of experiments with optics. He studied prisms, 350 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: and he saw light bending, and he saw light splitting 351 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: into colors. And you can't explain that if light is 352 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: a particle, but he tried. You know, he's like, well, 353 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: maybe when a particle hits the glass, it gets some 354 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: sort of weird sideways force and that makes it bend. 355 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: But you know, that's not really an explanation. That's just 356 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: sort of like a I don't really understand it. But 357 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: maybe it's something like this. 358 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 2: Like, if light is a particle, why does it split 359 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: into the rainbow kind of thing? 360 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And you know this is again back in 361 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: the day when empirical studies of science weren't the main 362 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: way to answer questions. It was mostly thinking in your 363 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: head about things that made sense to you, and then 364 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: they would argue about them. Right. A lot of the 365 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: way scientific disputes used to be resolved was people would 366 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: argue about it and then say, well, that makes no sense, 367 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: so it can't be true. And we know now, of 368 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: course that the universe doesn't always make sense to us. 369 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: What's real isn't necessarily the things that we would have 370 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: accepted as true or accepted as a reasonable way to 371 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: describe the universe. But you know, if that's the way 372 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: nature works, that's the way nature works, you have to 373 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: accept it. But that's the sort of primacy of experimental 374 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: results came later on. So back in the day, people 375 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: just sort of used to argue for an explanation that 376 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: made sense to them. 377 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 2: Right, Well, it was kind of hard for them to 378 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 2: build a particle collider, right. 379 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, exactly, They didn't have the massive government 380 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: funding to do that. These were men of leisure studying 381 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: science and the spare time. 382 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: In fact, it was called like natural philosophy, right, It 383 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 2: wasn't called science at the time, was it. 384 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right exactly. All science grew out of philosophy. 385 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: It was called these folks were natural philosophers. Okay, But 386 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: you know, later on then people started doing experiments, and 387 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: there were a bunch of French guys who did a 388 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: bunch of experiments and some of some English folks, and 389 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: they they were studying how light behaved and refraction and reflection, 390 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: and they saw it doing these things, and they thought, 391 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: there's no way Newton's right, this has to be a wave, 392 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 1: you know. They saw things like interference patterns, right. Interference 393 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: patterns is when you have two waves and sometimes one 394 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: is rippling up at the same time another one is 395 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: rippling down. Right. So imagine, for example, you have a 396 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: bathtub of water in front of you, and you slap 397 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: it with two hands at once, right, each one is 398 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,199 Speaker 1: going to send waves out, and then when those end, 399 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: those waves are either rippling up or rippling down. And 400 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: when they reach each other, if they're both rippling up 401 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: at the same time, then they constructively interfere to get 402 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: a double wave. If they're both rippling down at the 403 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: same time, they constructively interfere to get a double down wave. 404 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: If one is rippling up and the other's rippling down, 405 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: then then they cancel each other. 406 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 2: Out right, And so you would see no light. 407 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And so you can do this kind of stuff, 408 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: you know, in your bathtub. You can see interference patterns. 409 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: And what happens if you have two sources like that, 410 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: like one from each of your hands, is you get 411 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: some areas where the waves are high, in some areas 412 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 1: where the waves are low in some areas where there 413 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: are no waves, and so as you say, if you 414 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: do it with light, then you see these patterns of 415 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: dark and light, these stripes. 416 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: And you couldn't do that with particles, right, like a 417 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 2: particle wouldn't cancel another particle. 418 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no way to explain that with particles. People thought, well, look, 419 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: this is something that waves do and light is doing it, 420 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: and there's no way to explain it with particles, so 421 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: light must be a wave. Right. In fact, there's even 422 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: famous cases where they said, well, you know, if light 423 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: is a wave, then you know, if you set up 424 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: this various experiment, you would get this crazy effect and 425 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: so that's absurd and so it definitely can't be true. 426 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: And then they went and did the experiment and saw 427 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: the crazy wave effect and they're like, oh, that is true. 428 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: You know this is a I love that because it's 429 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: the primacy of experiment experimentalism, right, like, go and check 430 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: the data, Go and actually get some data and see 431 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: what the universe tells you. 432 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you're like, a doughnut can't possibly be a 433 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: croissant at the same time, But it turns out that 434 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: you can bake something called a cronat. 435 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. I think that's a big debate in pastry 436 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: science still though. Yeah, is it from a donut like 437 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: that's like a croissant or is it a croissant that's 438 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: like a donut. 439 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm getting my degree in a particle baking. 440 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, the large Pastry Collider. I'm looking forward to the 441 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: construction of that project. 442 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: But that's kind of what you mean. It's like you, 443 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 2: people don't think it's possible until they actually see it. 444 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 2: And waves and light has been doing this to people 445 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 2: for hundreds of years, or they're like, they can't possibly 446 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 2: be doing this, or they can't it can't possibly be 447 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 2: doing that, but it just keeps doing all these weird things. 448 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And that was the experiment it's called the 449 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: double slit experiment, the one that really convinced people that 450 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: light is a wave because they've shone a strong light 451 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: and they had just two little narrow slits which act 452 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: like as sources like slapping your hands in the bath 453 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: to water, and then on a screen behind it. They 454 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: saw these interference patterns, right, is that you could definitely 455 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: only get if light was a wave. And so that 456 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: was the early eighteen hundreds, and everybody was absolutely certain 457 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: light was totally a wave. The question was settled. We 458 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: knew forever light was a wave, and we still didn't 459 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: know what was it waving through. 460 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 2: But how did they explain all those particle experiments? 461 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: Well, this was before we even really knew about particles, right, 462 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: No real particles had been discovered at this point. With 463 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: this idea from the Greeks of thousands of years ago 464 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: that maybe things were made out of particles, and chemistry 465 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: was getting warmed up, and you know, people are starting 466 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: to think about atoms and molecules and stuff, but they 467 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: hadn't really seen any actual particles yet. And it was 468 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: decades later when the electron was discovered that people started 469 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 1: to think about the particle model again. But you know, 470 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: the wave theory was definitely ascended, right, Everybody definitely looked 471 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: at these double slit experiments and saw light doing all 472 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: this wavy stuff, and they were sure that light was 473 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: a wave. 474 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 2: Now did people extend that to other things, like, you know, 475 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 2: they thought, oh, light is this weird wavy thing, but 476 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 2: surely us, we're made out of little tiny atoms. 477 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. I wonder if people thought, 478 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: hm light's a wave. Maybe we're a wave too, right. 479 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, or like everything is just like a wave. 480 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, probably not, because nobody thought that light had any 481 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: mass to it, right, whereas we definitely know that we 482 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: have mass. Right, we feel pretty heavy sometimes after a 483 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: big meal. Even before the discovery particles, though, there was 484 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: a huge advance in the theory of light, which was 485 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: a Scottish guy named Maxwell. He was working on electricity 486 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: and magnetism, and he put together all these equations to 487 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: describe electricity magnetism, and he just sort of wrote them 488 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: down in a new way. This is like the way 489 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: you could do theoretical physics back in the days. You 490 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: just take existing ideas and you find a new way 491 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: to write them down. But he wrote them down in 492 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: this way that looked like the mathematics of a wave. 493 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: We have this equation, it's called a wave equation, and 494 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: it describes how waves moved through a medium. 495 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 2: Meaning like it could be described by equations that looked 496 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 2: like sine waves and cosine waves, right, I mean, just 497 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 2: in case anyone remembers high school math, that's kind of 498 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 2: what we mean by mathematical equations. So you can describe 499 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 2: it as a sine wave ors cosine wave. 500 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: Right, that's right. Yeah, The solution to these equations are 501 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: sine waves and cosine waves. These are differential equations to 502 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: describe how things move through the medium, and if things 503 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: follow these equations, then they're waves, right, okay. And so 504 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: he looked at the equations for electricity and for magnetism 505 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: and he rewrote them and he realized, you can rewrite 506 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: them in a way that looks just like the wave equation. Right, 507 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: So he said, oh, electricity magnetism has the same equation 508 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: as waves moving through water or waves moving through air. 509 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: And in fact, if you write it in terms of 510 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: this wave equation, you can pull out what the speed 511 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: of those waves must be. And the speed that he 512 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: pulled out from this from these equations was the speed 513 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: of light. So he had this moment of epift. He 514 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: must have been like in his office late one night, 515 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: rearranged these equations and realized, oh, my gosh, light is 516 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: a wave and it's a wave of electromagnetism. 517 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 2: So like a light bulb turned on on top of 518 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: his head, emitting waves. 519 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: Exactly the first appropriate light bulb ever. 520 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, so then that seems pretty definitive. The double slit 521 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 2: experiment shows it light interferes with itself. And also this 522 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 2: guy figured out that it's mathematically describable by sine ways 523 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 2: and cosine waves right. 524 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: Right right, That light is waves of electromagnetism. Yeah, exactly. 525 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: So then it all seems really nice and tidy. But 526 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: then the particle revolution comes, right. People discover the electron, 527 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: people discover the neutron, people discovering all these particles. But 528 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: then they were doing experiments where they were shining light 529 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,959 Speaker 1: onto materials and trying to get it to kick off electrons. 530 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: So you shine a really bright light at something and 531 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: you hope that some of the electrons in the material 532 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: absorb that light and get enough energy to be free 533 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: to run away. And so this is called the photoelectric effect. 534 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: You shine light at something and you measure the electrons 535 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: that come off. So what they saw in this experiment 536 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: only made sense if the energy of the light comes 537 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 1: in little packets rather than a continuous stream like waves. 538 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: So they turned up the intensity of the light and 539 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: they made it brighter, but that didn't increase the energy 540 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: the electrons that were coming off, which doesn't make sense 541 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: if it's a wave. It only makes sense if photons 542 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: come in little packets, so that increasing the intensity of 543 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: the light means more photons, but it doesn't give more 544 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: energy to any one electron because each electron can only 545 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: absorb one photon. And nobody understood this at all. This 546 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: made no sense to anybody. It was a huge puzzle. 547 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: We totally believe that it acted like a wave. We 548 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: had the double slit experiment told us it was a wave. 549 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,959 Speaker 1: Maxwell's equations told us it was a wave. But then 550 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: we had the photoelectric effect, which didn't quite make sense 551 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: to anybody. Okay, And then Einstein said, well, what if 552 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: light comes in these little packets like you were saying before, 553 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: What if light is not this continuous stream of energy 554 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 1: like a wave is right, a wave is continuous stream 555 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: of energy. What if it comes in these little bits? 556 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: And that explained everything if you if you thought that 557 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: light was came in these little packets, it explained the 558 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: photo electric effect, explained these all these other mysteries in physics, 559 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 1: and that was the birth of quantum mechanics. 560 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 2: Did they think that maybe it was little packets of waves? 561 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? Like little short bursts 562 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 2: of ripples, you know, do you know what I mean? 563 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 2: Like could that explain how it's both things that run 564 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: through his brain. 565 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, I think that's probably the first way he 566 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: thought about it. Is like a little localized ripple, right, 567 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: like a little Yeah, that's the best way to put it, 568 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: a little localized ripple, like the way you can send 569 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: a little ripple of water, Yeah, through a swimming pool, 570 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: or something. 571 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: Like a chirp or like a little sound burst. 572 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, like a little chirp. But it's strange because 573 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, you can make a chirp of any size. 574 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: You can make a big one, a little one, a 575 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: long one, a fat one. But light, for some reason, 576 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: wanted to come only these in these little distinct chirps 577 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: of a specific size, and the size of those chirps 578 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: was controlled by their color or their frequency. And so 579 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: that was the birth of quantum mechanics, which we could 580 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: spend a whole other podcast talking about, but it was 581 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: the first clue that maybe light did come in these 582 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: distinct little packages. 583 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about that, but first let's take a 584 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 2: quick break. 585 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: And that's what we talked about, Like, what is a particle. 586 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: It's a distinct little package. And then here's the part 587 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: that blew my mind. Is that. Then they went back 588 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: and they did that double slit experiment again, but they 589 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: slowed it down. Instead of shining a really big beam 590 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: of light, they just shown one photon at a time, right, Okay, 591 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: because they wanted to see what's going to happen. Right, 592 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: if light comes in these little packets, how does that 593 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: explain the interference effect? How can light interfere if it's 594 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 1: a particle? 595 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: So like, instead of like pointing the hose of water 596 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 2: at these two little holes and just seeing what happens 597 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 2: on the other side, they were throwing one droplet of 598 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 2: water at a. 599 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: Time, yes, exactly. And what they expected to see was 600 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: that there'ld be no interference pattern, right, because the interference 601 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: comes from having two sources. Right. You have interference when 602 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: you have two waves that are either adding up or 603 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: canceling out. 604 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 2: Meaning like a huge stream of light is going through 605 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: these two little slits. Then the two little slits act 606 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 2: like little sources, like little sorts of ripples, which can 607 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 2: cancel az exactly. But if you throw one drop at time, 608 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: it's either going to go in one slit or it's 609 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 2: going to go on the other slid, right. 610 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, And so there should be nothing to interfere, right, 611 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,479 Speaker 1: So that's what they expected. But what they what they 612 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: saw blew their minds. Right. What happens if you slow 613 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: the experiment down, you send one photon at a time, 614 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: is that you'll get an interference pattern. It's just that 615 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: it builds up piece by piece. So you used to 616 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: throw one photon through and it lands someplace on the screen. 617 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: Throw another photon through, it lands somewhere else on the screen. 618 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,479 Speaker 1: After you add up a million photons, you rebuild the 619 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: original interference pattern you saw. 620 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 2: That's crazy. 621 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: What light is a particle, but it's acting like a wave? Right? 622 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: How is that? How can that even be? Right? 623 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 2: It's not just that it's like it's a particle that's 624 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 2: acting like a wave, as if it was in a 625 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: huge stream of other particles. 626 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: Right, that's right, And this blew everybody's mind. And the answer, 627 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: of course, is that light is a particle. But like 628 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: every kind of matter, like every particle, how it moves 629 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: is governed by mathematics of wave equations. So every particle 630 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: carries with it some quantum mechanical wave that determines where 631 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: it goes. But what was happening in that experiment was 632 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: that a particle photon was approaching the experiment and then 633 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: it could either go through the left hand side or 634 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: the right hand side slit right, And because it's quantum mechanical, 635 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: it did both. It had a chance to do both, 636 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: and what was interfering was the probability to go through 637 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: the left slit or the right slit. 638 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: So that's interesting. I don't think i've heard that explanation before, 639 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 2: that it's a particle and a wave in the sense 640 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 2: that it is a particle, but it moves according to 641 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: wave equations. 642 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: Yes, everything moves according to wave equations. It's just that 643 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: the wavelength for things depends on how much energy they have. 644 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: So that was this guy, Tobroguely. He came up with 645 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: this equation. And maybe you've heard the expression to broguely wavelength. 646 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 2: I've heard the expression wavelength. That seems to be a. 647 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, everything is wavelengths. We were making fun of that guy. 648 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: Turns out he was right, oh twist ending, No, everything 649 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: has a wavelength. Right, you can describe the motion of 650 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: anything in terms of a wave. Now, the wavelength depends 651 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: on the mass and the momentum, and for most things 652 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: like me or you or a cantalope. The wavelength of 653 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: its quantum mechanical wave function is tiny, and so you 654 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: can't even notice, right, the wave effects of you and 655 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: your son walking down the hallway and interfering with each 656 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: other are basically negligible. But on the scale of particles, 657 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: these wave functions interfere with each other. 658 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a crazy thodd that, you know. We I 659 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 2: think people think quantum is something that doesn't affect their lies, 660 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 2: but quantum ideas and concepts are everywhere, right, Like you 661 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: have a sort of like a quantum superposition, or you 662 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 2: you're not really there. You sort of there's a cloud 663 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 2: of you that is. 664 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: I'm not really here, I'm just an AI on the internet. 665 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: But that's that's differently cloud. Yeah, there is this quantum 666 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: mechanical certainly and everything. 667 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: Guess yeah, yeah, it's just that you can't notice. 668 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: That really blew people's minds. This concept that like, okay, 669 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: light is a particle, but it's sort of acts like 670 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: a wave. We can use these wave equations to describe it. 671 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: And you know, there's another layer to that experiment which 672 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: is even crazier, right, which is if what's interfering is 673 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: the probability to go through the left slit or the 674 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: right slit right. When the photon approaches the experiment, it 675 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: can go through one or the other. The interference pattern 676 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: comes from the uncertainty of which it's going to go through. 677 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: So what you can do is you can add a 678 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: little detector to one slit that like gives you a 679 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: ping if it goes through that slit right, so you 680 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: know for sure if it goes through one slit or 681 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: the other. If you do that, the interference pattern disappears. 682 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: WHOA why does it disappear? It disappears because the interference 683 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: only came from the interference of the possibility of the 684 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: particles to go through the left slit or the right slit, 685 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: our lack of knowledge. Once you know it goes through 686 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: the right slit of left slit, there's no more uncertainty. 687 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: There's nothing to interfere. It just goes through the left 688 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: or it goes through the right. 689 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 2: It's like you're throwing a box is full of cats 690 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 2: that are either dead or alive, and you see what 691 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,719 Speaker 2: happens on the other side. It's different if you take 692 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: a peek inside the box before it gets. 693 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: There, exactly exactly, and no cats were harmed in the 694 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: making of this podcast, I now feel energe to point 695 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: out that's sort of where we are today, is that 696 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: we know that light is a particle and then it 697 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: comes in these little discrete packets become photons, right, Yeah, 698 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: But we also know that, like everything else, light is 699 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: determined by how its wave function moves. Every particle and 700 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: every object has this wave function, and how it moves 701 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: is controlled by wave equations. 702 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: It's not like it's both a particle and a wave 703 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 2: and people don't really know which one it is, or 704 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 2: people are still confused about that. But it sort of 705 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 2: sounds like you're not that confused about it, right, It 706 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 2: sort of sounds like you know it's a particle, but 707 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 2: it moves around like a wave. 708 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's still confusing. I mean, I think you could. 709 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: It's totally reasonable to say it's both. It's a particle 710 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: but it acts like a wave. Right. It's also totally 711 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: reasonable to say it's neither. It's not a particle, it's 712 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: not a wave, it's something else. It's something weird, something 713 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: totally strange, we've never seen before. It's a war we can. 714 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 2: Or a pave. 715 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: You are on fire. 716 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: I am simple spelling. 717 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: But that's that's a joke. But it's also serious because 718 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: sometimes we discover things which are unlike anything else we've seen, 719 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: and how do you describe them? 720 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 2: I mean, we should stop using these words. We should 721 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: maybe come up with a new word to describe what 722 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 2: it is, because it's not, yes, not described by either 723 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: word particle. 724 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: That's right, it's a chapel, it's a cherry apple combination. 725 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's not call it a particle or a wave. 726 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 2: Let's just make up anyw word that embodies these two 727 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 2: ways to behave that's right. 728 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 1: But here we've discovered something which is different from anything 729 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: in our microscopic world. There's nothing in our world particles, wave, 730 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 1: little puppies that is a good analogy for what light is. 731 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: So we have to try to sort of describe it 732 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: in terms of sometimes it's like this, sometimes like this. 733 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,439 Speaker 1: My personal belief is that it's it's not like anything else, 734 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: and that these are approximations. But you know, like we 735 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, you can be different contradictory things 736 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: like how would you describe yourself? You know, sometimes your husband, 737 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: sometimes your father, Sometimes you're a cartoonist, sometimes you're just asleep. 738 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: You know, like all these things describe you, they're contradictory. 739 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 1: There are different facets of who you are at your core, 740 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: and none of them define you. 741 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 2: Right right, But if you don't have to have the 742 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 2: right label, you make up and you know that's right. 743 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: Yes, we need a new thing, right. Light is definitely 744 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 1: its own weird kind of thing. 745 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 2: All right, Well, until next time. 746 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,879 Speaker 1: If you still have a question after listening to all 747 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: these explanations, please drop us a line. We'd love to 748 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: hear from you. You can find us at Facebook, Twitter, 749 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge That's one word, or 750 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: email us at Feedback at Danielanorge dot com